View Full Version : I Think Guys Should Pay on the First Date.
Kellydancer
07-24-2014, 08:55 PM
Just be careful picking and choosing where you believe in equality. Otherwise it's easy for someone to accuse you of hypocrisy.
However, the example you gave makes perfect sense. There's never going to be a perfect 50/50 household chores and 50/50 financial contribution, so the person lacking in one should pick up the slack in the other.
Oh I believe in equality through and through. Earlier I mentioned that I believe the person who asks should pay though most men insist on paying. I do think there can be 50/50 in both though but often seems someone gets screwed. For example my brother makes the money (he's a doctor in the army)yet still does the majority of the cooking and a lot of the cleaning.
ushar
07-24-2014, 09:08 PM
Oh I believe in equality through and through. Earlier I mentioned that I believe the person who asks should pay though most men insist on paying. I do think there can be 50/50 in both though but often seems someone gets screwed. For example my brother makes the money (he's a doctor in the army)yet still does the majority of the cooking and a lot of the cleaning.
I think that's called winning the jackpot.
invibe
07-24-2014, 09:30 PM
My earlier comment was a joke, I thought the sarcasm was obvious.
Some women say "equality" with a dozen different personal qualifiers they pick and choose. Men know this, we don't hold it against them but it is fun to point it out to give them a hard time.
Many men expect to pay on at least the first few dates don't they? If a woman started getting really pushy about wanting to pay beyond a polite offer I would think that is weird. So the tradition is probably safe lol.
Vyanka
07-24-2014, 10:11 PM
Says who? Traditionally it was a woman's role to care for home and husband. Obviously we're intent on breaking that tradition. Would you not be offended if I said women should NEVER stop being women: look sexy, cook dinner, clean the house; your role as a woman is to please us men? Of course you would! Cuz that's some sexist shit!
When you use that argument with other people, do they ever counter by saying "so you want to have your cake and eat it too"?
Yes, romance is somewhat different and chivalry isn't completely dead. Our perceptions of romance and how each gender should behave is always changing though.
It is not sexist at all. It's always been like that. Men looking out for women. I'm so glad I haven't met a guy (douche) who expected me to go dutch on a 1st date. Lol. I would laugh in his face and be offended.
Wow. Seriously.
Vyanka
07-24-2014, 10:12 PM
Err what? Lady, we're not in caveman times anymore. That line of thinking was relevant then, it is not now.
It's what GENTLEMEN do. ;)
simone87
07-24-2014, 10:45 PM
oh, god the whole equality thing and paying on the first date..well, the thing is..we aren't equal yet, not in society's eyes. so until then, i appreciate a man paying on the first date. i also don't see why a man wouldn't WANT to pay if he's actually interested in you. there is such a thing as being equal, but not being the same. men and women are different, yet equal in their value as humans.
ushar
07-24-2014, 11:41 PM
oh, god the whole equality thing and paying on the first date..well, the thing is..we aren't equal yet, not in society's eyes. so until then, i appreciate a man paying on the first date. i also don't see why a man wouldn't WANT to pay if he's actually interested in you. there is such a thing as being equal, but not being the same. men and women are different, yet equal in their value as humans.
I think almost all men would pay if they were interested, yes. And even if they weren't interested, I'd think quite a few would still do the courtesy. And that last bit hits the nail on the head!
lynn2009
07-25-2014, 12:17 AM
^^ I feel this is sort of unfair and manipulative. Why even offer? I always just smile and thank them for their generosity. That usually takes care of it simply without much fanfare.
Well it's hardly my goal to set someone up for failure. I also think it's rude to completely assume someone else will pay for you. And it's not like I really fight over the check. But usually when the check comes I'll start to pull out my wallet at the same time he does his, and typically he'll tell me not to worry about it and I say thanks.
audritwo
07-25-2014, 07:47 AM
When my husband and I were poor college students we would split up the check, our take turns paying. I didn't have those expectations because I knew we were both short on money. Now being married and our money total is half mine, it still doesn't matter. I enjoyed my time with him when we were dating and I still enjoy when we have the time to go on a date.
The_Ecdysiast
07-26-2014, 07:16 AM
" there is such a thing as being equal, but not being the same. men and women are different, yet equal in their value as humans."
THIS. The exact point I was trying to make. We are different, but are both worthy of equal respect because that's the proper thing to do out of human decency. That's what I personally mean in wanting to be "equal" to men.
oh, god the whole equality thing and paying on the first date..well, the thing is..we aren't equal yet, not in society's eyes. so until then, i appreciate a man paying on the first date. i also don't see why a man wouldn't WANT to pay if he's actually interested in you. there is such a thing as being equal, but not being the same. men and women are different, yet equal in their value as humans.
slowpoke
07-26-2014, 07:40 AM
Problem is once they taste my cooking they don't want to fuck anymore.
Now, I have become very picky about who I cook for these days.
Sam
Cooking lasts. Be happy to find someone who has his priorities in the proper order.
Selina M
07-26-2014, 06:41 PM
Whoever asks should pay. If I say "Let's go to the movies", I'm not going to look expectantly at him at the ticket window!
If it's a mutual "let's hang out" sort of thing, it should be split somehow.
I totally agree with whoever made the point of "How often do women really ask the guy on a first date?" So hence it defaults to the guy paying in most first date scenarios.
I know some women want to have their cake and eat it too, so I understand you men getting frustrated with that. I agree that it's nonsense for a girl to expect the man to pay for EVERYTHING and then refuse to lift a finger to clean because it's "sexist". In a relationship, everybody should pull their weight. I've been in both scenarios, where one of us was the sole earner and the other did most of the domestic stuff, and as long as nobody is feeling used it's fine.
As far as dating, I think chivalry is just dying out. Younger men (not you forum-goers! I'm talking my age, early 20s) are just slobs with crass attitudes. None of them have any manners, and it makes me sad that girls put up with that shit. Girls should be taught to value themselves more and demand a certain amount of respect from men. It's also gone the other way too; what once was just manners in men is now viewed as weakness. My boyfriend is as old-fashioned as it gets... he gets the car door, pulls my chair out, carries my heavier bags, etc... and I've had people say he's whipped :O
Aniela
07-26-2014, 08:24 PM
I know some women want to have their cake and eat it too, so I understand you men getting frustrated with that. I agree that it's nonsense for a girl to expect the man to pay for EVERYTHING and then refuse to lift a finger to clean because it's "sexist". In a relationship, everybody should pull their weight. I've been in both scenarios, where one of us was the sole earner and the other did most of the domestic stuff, and as long as nobody is feeling used it's fine.
As far as dating, I think chivalry is just dying out. Younger men (not you forum-goers! I'm talking my age, early 20s) are just slobs with crass attitudes. None of them have any manners, and it makes me sad that girls put up with that shit. Girls should be taught to value themselves more and demand a certain amount of respect from men. It's also gone the other way too; what once was just manners in men is now viewed as weakness. My boyfriend is as old-fashioned as it gets... he gets the car door, pulls my chair out, carries my heavier bags, etc... and I've had people say he's whipped :O
Agree strongly w/ this. There is such a huge amt of 'wanting it both ways' from both sides, I find it both very sad & a bit disgusting. I have known a few women who def have a 'Princess Complex' expecting men to treat them like goddesses but nvr really showing much appreciation; I can see where a guy would get frustrated after going thru a few 'relationships' w/ these types & become jaded as a result. I can also see where guys get the feeling it is such a tightrope walk between 'Respect Mah INDEPENDENCE!' & 'being a gentleman' that they just throw up their hands & don't want to be bothered w/ it.
But I have also seen way too many guys who seem to think that simple courtesies like holding a door or pulling out a chair are just … beneath them. A few have even come out & said 'If she's not putting out, why should I shell out?'
Too many games on both sides, I think.
Jay12
07-26-2014, 08:29 PM
Oh I believe in equality through and through. Earlier I mentioned that I believe the person who asks should pay though most men insist on paying. I do think there can be 50/50 in both though but often seems someone gets screwed. For example my brother makes the money (he's a doctor in the army)yet still does the majority of the cooking and a lot of the cleaning.
What does his woman do? Is she also military and is always deployed or is she a "dependa? If she's the latter, he needs an upgrade ASAP!!!!!!
Kellydancer
07-26-2014, 08:48 PM
What does his woman do? Is she also military and is always deployed or is she a "dependa? If she's the latter, he needs an upgrade ASAP!!!!!!
The latter. She does not work and never really has been ambitious. Even when they didn't have kids (the first 9 years of the marriage)she worked on and off. She always uses the excuse she is tired.
Aurora_Sunset
07-26-2014, 11:12 PM
Agree strongly w/ this. There is such a huge amt of 'wanting it both ways' from both sides, I find it both very sad & a bit disgusting. I have known a few women who def have a 'Princess Complex' expecting men to treat them like goddesses but nvr really showing much appreciation; I can see where a guy would get frustrated after going thru a few 'relationships' w/ these types & become jaded as a result. I can also see where guys get the feeling it is such a tightrope walk between 'Respect Mah INDEPENDENCE!' & 'being a gentleman' that they just throw up their hands & don't want to be bothered w/ it.
But I have also seen way too many guys who seem to think that simple courtesies like holding a door or pulling out a chair are just … beneath them. A few have even come out & said 'If she's not putting out, why should I shell out?'
Too many games on both sides, I think.
Agreed. I do expect a lot out of the people I choose to be with, but that's because I expect a lot of myself toward them as well. It really rubs me the wrong way when I hear guys my age showing some sort of stupid pride in how they absolutely refuse to do this, that, or the other thing simply because they don't like the fact that it's "expected of them" or they think they're making some sort of big show of "bucking tradition" and "being a real man who isn't whipped." Um... expectations are what a fucking relationship is. I expect things out of people, but they should be allowed to expect certain things of me in return. I don't want to date someone who one day is gonna treat me one way, but then thinks it's acceptable to treat me another way the next day, and I shouldn't have a right to complain about what I expect consistently...
Although, to be fair, this isn't just a relationship, male/female dynamic. I deal with this in abundance in just everyday friendships as well. I will bend over backwards to do something that I know is important for a friend, cuz I'm like "Well, isn't that what fucking friends do?", but am almost never given the same treatment (not never, but almost never). It's just because everybody nowadays is too far up their own ass...
Jay12
07-27-2014, 01:56 AM
The latter. She does not work and never really has been ambitious. Even when they didn't have kids (the first 9 years of the marriage)she worked on and off. She always uses the excuse she is tired.
I bet she's also super fat, has a few Coach purses, and all sorts of "I love my soldier" bumper stickers!!!!
Dependapotamus!!!!!!!!!!
Jay12
07-27-2014, 02:00 AM
Sorry for the previous post: I won't get out of topic anymore.
I NEVER pay on a date. What I do is cook them a homemade dinner after about 3 to 6 dates.
Problem is once they taste my cooking they don't want to fuck anymore. So does that even as a porn star mean I'm that bad in bed? They are like "I can easily get laid, but rather spend the time eating your cooking."
Now, I have become very picky about who I cook for these days.
Sam
That's kinda weird, at least for me. When I had cooked for the men I had been with, my cooking has been what kept them by my side...and of course they kept having all sorts of sex with me as well.
oldster
07-27-2014, 05:08 AM
I always pay on the first and many subsequent dates, until you know each other so well that you are well aware of each others finances.
I open doors for people in general.
Pull your chair out? Open your car door? If you are under 10 or your arms are broken. Seriously, I am in my 50's and women when I was younger would not have put up with that crap. Yeah, there may be a segment of the Junior League that expect it, but a larger segment were in NOW and would picket your damn house...................
HOw absurd does this sound:
Oh I won't ask her out again
why?
WEll, not only did she not wait for me to open her car door, but she walked right up to the restaurant door and opened it herself, I simply didn't know what to say.
shocking!
Oh, and I am sure if the waiter had not rush to pull her chair out she would have done it herself, I was speechless
>>>>>
Trust me that conversation has not happened in the western world since 1964
While paying is a useful indication of future worth, other Victorian niceties have no bearing on a persons fitness as a mate.
Kellydancer
07-27-2014, 11:45 AM
I bet she's also super fat, has a few Coach purses, and all sorts of "I love my soldier" bumper stickers!!!!
Dependapotamus!!!!!!!!!!
Yep sadly. Don't get me wrong I like her but yes she is lazy.
JayATee
07-27-2014, 11:47 AM
I was raised to take care of myself. Sure it's nice if someone else pays but I never expect it from anyone. Plus I don't like the idea of owing anyone shit.
Selina M
08-01-2014, 07:39 PM
Pull your chair out? Open your car door? If you are under 10 or your arms are broken. Seriously, I am in my 50's and women when I was younger would not have put up with that crap. Yeah, there may be a segment of the Junior League that expect it, but a larger segment were in NOW and would picket your damn house...................
Hey hey hey now.... I do not expect any of that stuff in my post, nor do I view it as a "fitness of mate" thing... It took me a LONG time to get used to it because I also thought it was leftover from the 50s. I still occasionally roll my eyes and say "I got it!" when he goes for a chair.
However, my other half is an odd creature... not only is he from a wealthy family/older parents (in their 70s now) with the same sort of manners, he went to military high school (which drilled in a lot of strange habits, like a compulsion to make beds) and has been working in ballroom dance land for 10 years (where they still do all those silly old-fashioned things, and the costumes for competitions show it). That's why he has these overstated polite manners; it's not something I would expect from someone who didn't have that interesting background.
Vyanka
08-02-2014, 08:44 AM
I always pay on the first and many subsequent dates, until you know each other so well that you are well aware of each others finances.
I open doors for people in general.
Pull your chair out? Open your car door? If you are under 10 or your arms are broken. Seriously, I am in my 50's and women when I was younger would not have put up with that crap. Yeah, there may be a segment of the Junior League that expect it, but a larger segment were in NOW and would picket your damn house...................
HOw absurd does this sound:
Oh I won't ask her out again
why?
WEll, not only did she not wait for me to open her car door, but she walked right up to the restaurant door and opened it herself, I simply didn't know what to say.
shocking!
Oh, and I am sure if the waiter had not rush to pull her chair out she would have done it herself, I was speechless
>>>>>
Trust me that conversation has not happened in the western world since 1964
While paying is a useful indication of future worth, other Victorian niceties have no bearing on a persons fitness as a mate.
To each their own.
The guys I've gone out with still do this, without me asking of course (in case you wonder). Men in their 20's - 40's. I also still see it with other couples around me in public, so it's not just me personally.
I'm use to "old school/ ladies first" mannerisms then.
Again, to each their own.
After I get to know the person, I can pay or we can split it. If I go out with a guy as friends that's different, then I don't mind paying in that case or going dutch. I mean if "a guy who wants to get to know me" asks me out, I think he should pay for dinner. And if that person never asked me to pay for something, I'm not going to offer. The whole time I think things are going good and he's thinking "Why doesn't she offer to pay for something?" And I don't think he has the right to trash me on Facebook for not offering to pay! Just wondering what you all think.
To your original question....
Any guy that would bash you on facebook is a LOSER. Seriously. He did you a favor; showing you what a huge ass is he early on. Less time wasted.
A real man would of spoke to you in person and in private about something that bothered him. A qualm discussion to let you know what was bugging him and why. I dont care what age a male is; being a man is based on his actions. It is not what he says, pays, looks like, or who he knows. It is how he deals with issues.
If you looking for a man to have your back the way you have his? protect you? take care of you? it is all about how he deals with issues. Big or small. If he cant even handle a small issue with integrity what makes you think he is going to handle something important better?
I have watched this thread to see where it would go......
One thing I have learned the hard way over the years, alot of these guys that whine about paying on first dates, are also the same guys that get pissed off when you dont put out on the first date too.
I keep first dates simple, a diner etc, and he always pays. If he tries to push me into paying or having sex or anything I drop him. He has to honor my personal boundaries. If he doesn't I drop him like a hot rock.
Too many players use women's need be accepted, seen as nice, and liked against them. They will try to guilt you into all kinds of shit, without putting in any effort of their own.
The purpose of a date is for him to show me who he really is. I am paying attention. He has to prove himself to me. If he balks at the challenge he isnt a real man. This might sound extreme.... but it has never failed me. I give as good as I get. I am a damn good woman, i deserve a man worthy of me. If paying for a date is too much for them, so am I.
Naida
08-02-2014, 11:28 PM
I guess I have kind of a weird way of looking at all this.
First of all, splitting is NEVER okay on dates, and RARELY okay elsewhere, to me. Only among good friends and family, and only if it's discussed while picking where to go. The closest to "splitting" I'm okay with when it comes to romance is in a well established relationship: pooling your money while deciding where to go and (this is just my personal preference) putting it in his wallet.
On the first handful of dates, I do secretly expect him to pay. If I know I can't afford to pay for at least my half at wherever we're going, I'll let him know I'm broke beforehand so he has a heads up that he will be paying or else we negotiate somewhere else. If I can cover the whole tab, I will offer to pay when the check comes because that's just considered polite. But if I have to pull out my wallet at all on the first date, or for more than the tip on the second/third, he will not be getting another date with me.
After the third date, I don't mind alternating who pays or splitting up the day. Who ever invites or otherwise suggests where you go should be the one who pays in my mind.
I'm 100% for equality and I assert my independence, but I'm honestly a submissive, classically feminine sort of woman deep down at heart. Among friends, family, acquaintances, etc, I am very much the girl who will open her own doors, pull my own weight, and so forth. But in romance, I expect a chivalrous partner to compliment my domestic diva-ness that's only a few sheets away from the old school housewife stereotype. To explain what I mean a bit:
- Unless I'm home caring for a new baby or something like that, I will work too.
- I prefer to do most of the cooking, but I want a partner who can and occasionally will cook too. The caveat to this is that I expect a "please" if I didn't offer it, and a "thanks" or some other acknowledgment for it.
- I prefer to do most of the housework, but I expect a partner who will reasonably clean up after themselves. As in: properly throw your clothes in the hamper and put your own away yourself after it's been laundered, but let me handle actually getting the laundry done; clear and scrape your own plate, but let me do the dishes; put away your things, but let me handle the general sweeping/dusting/mopping, and we both share in the major monthly/seasonal clean up. The caveat to this is that I expect a "please" if I didn't offer it, and a "thanks" or some other acknowledgment for it.
Romantically speaking, I like gender roles but I demand respect as a fellow human being. On the flip side, I also don't mind totally reversing these gender roles. With my ex fiance, I was the bread winner and he was, per our in house joke, the "house bitch." What matters is human equality. Beyond that, it varies from relationship to relationship. Some people like 50/50, some like the 25/75 housewife/bitch model, some of us prefer some place in between. You just need to find YOUR complimentary partner.
Kellydancer
08-03-2014, 10:42 AM
I have watched this thread to see where it would go......
One thing I have learned the hard way over the years, alot of these guys that whine about paying on first dates, are also the same guys that get pissed off when you dont put out on the first date too.
I keep first dates simple, a diner etc, and he always pays. If he tries to push me into paying or having sex or anything I drop him. He has to honor my personal boundaries. If he doesn't I drop him like a hot rock.
Too many players use women's need be accepted, seen as nice, and liked against them. They will try to guilt you into all kinds of shit, without putting in any effort of their own.
The purpose of a date is for him to show me who he really is. I am paying attention. He has to prove himself to me. If he balks at the challenge he isnt a real man. This might sound extreme.... but it has never failed me. I give as good as I get. I am a damn good woman, i deserve a man worthy of me. If paying for a date is too much for them, so am I.
Not that I agree, but I do get the men who expect sex after paying. After all (in his mind)he gave financially so he wants a return. However a man expecting sex and then complaining he has to pay is going to find himself disappointed more than likely. I'm not into casual sex but would be more open to men who paid than men who didn't.
With first dates I keep it casual unless I already know the guy. To me there is a difference between being friends with a guy for years then dating versus just meeting. When I first meet a guy I like something very casual. When I did online dating I usually met for a snack/soda or something costing little money.
lynn2009
08-03-2014, 11:49 AM
Naida, so well-spoken!
Not that I agree, but I do get the men who expect sex after paying. After all (in his mind)he gave financially so he wants a return. However a man expecting sex and then complaining he has to pay is going to find himself disappointed more than likely. I'm not into casual sex but would be more open to men who paid than men who didn't.
With first dates I keep it casual unless I already know the guy. To me there is a difference between being friends with a guy for years then dating versus just meeting. When I first meet a guy I like something very casual. When I did online dating I usually met for a snack/soda or something costing little money.
To me, it is more about his character then it is about the sex or money.
How he deals with these issues is one way that he shows his character early on. I am looking to see how much he honors my personal boundaries.
We are all entitled to have personal boundaries because of the society we live in. A man who is more interested in pushing a woman into a situation, then finding out who she is, isnt there to build a relationship. He is there for what he can get out of it.
Not that you are saying this..... but these discussions, whether it is with a man on a date or on these forums, descend into women needing to prove themselves as well. I just take the stance of..... I do not have to prove who I am until I know I can trust you. By taking a hard stance I find great men who are honorable, strong integrity, and successful in their lives.
Kellydancer
08-03-2014, 01:42 PM
To me, it is more about his character then it is about the sex or money.
How he deals with these issues is one way that he shows his character early on. I am looking to see how much he honors my personal boundaries.
We are all entitled to have personal boundaries because of the society we live in. A man who is more interested in pushing a woman into a situation, then finding out who she is, isnt there to build a relationship. He is there for what he can get out of it.
Not that you are saying this..... but these discussions, whether it is with a man on a date or on these forums, descend into women needing to prove themselves as well. I just take the stance of..... I do not have to prove who I am until I know I can trust you. By taking a hard stance I find great men who are honorable, strong integrity, and successful in their lives.
I don't think anyone needs to prove anything and I don't like when men say "I bought dinner, she has to put out". Not that I agree (I don't)but it makes more sense than a man saying "she needs to put out no matter" if that makes sense. I think what happens a lot (at least what I've seen)are two kinds of men who pay on the first date and that are the men who are truly honorable and really respect women and those who look at it as payback. I'm kind of cynical myself and would more than likely assume if he asked me out on a first date and then spent a lot that he isn't doing that because he likes me but because he assumes he'll get sex. In general I am cynical because I rarely come across the men are very honorable men. Most of the honorable men I do meet have been stung by women (I don't mean sexually)so they usually will mention casual dating until they know I have no intention of screwing them over. Most of them do end up paying but it is different to me to go to a cheap date versus an expensive one at first.
This might not make much sense but it's what I usually see. Yes the men I know will pay the first date but seem to suggest something very cheap. I don't come across the men many are mentioning who take them to 5 star restaurants and pay and expect nothing. I come across men who will pay but will take me to some mom and pop restaurant (nothing wrong with that), or men who will wine and dine me but expect sex, or the men who expect me to pay.
Keep in mind though that this is because my dating pool is different than most here. My dating pool consists of men with kids and/or exwives and their financial obligations to them, men who have been stung by women, men who have had lots of sexual partners, and men who have little dating experience and don't know how to date. This really affects the type of men I come across. The broke men don't spend as much and those who got stung aren't as likely to spend much. The guys with little dating experience are the strangest and many are so set in their ways they often don't know if they should pay or not.
rickdugan
08-03-2014, 01:48 PM
Even when I was a broke college kid, it was inconceivable that my date would have to pull out her wallet. Now obviously there is some point in the relationship where things change, such as when two young people move in together or the relationship is more advanced she wants to do something that he cannot swing alone. Now some of my GFs back in those days were merciful, especially since they were young and broke too and knew the score, but I think that they were simply grateful that I found ways for us to be able to do some fun things together - sometimes creatively at that. ;)
IMHO how a man handles these things in the early stages should tell a girl something about how he will step up when it really matters, such as if they should ever get married and have kids together. Now I hear everyone about the equality angle, but until guys can pop babies out of their penises and produce milk, IMHO they need to be able to take care of business when it counts. Life is real hard in circumstances where women have to bear kids, take on the bulk of the child rearing AND make ends meet, all because they find out, too late, that their men are lazy and useless.
Anyway, just my two cents.
Kellydancer
08-03-2014, 02:01 PM
Even when I was a broke college kid, it was inconceivable that my date would have to pull out her wallet. Now obviously there is some point in the relationship where things change, such as when two young people move in together or the relationship is more advanced she wants to do something that he cannot swing alone. Now some of my GFs back in those days were merciful, especially since they were young and broke too and knew the score, but I think that they were simply grateful that I found ways for us to be able to do some fun things together - sometimes creatively at that. ;)
IMHO how a man handles these things in the early stages should tell a girl something about how he will step up when it really matters, such as if they should ever get married and have kids together. Now I hear everyone about the equality angle, but until guys can pop babies out of their penises and produce milk, IMHO they need to be able to take care of business when it counts. Life is real hard in circumstances where women have to bear kids, take on the bulk of the child rearing AND make ends meet, all because they find out, too late, that their men are lazy and useless.
Anyway, just my two cents.
I do think though there is a difference in a woman looking to be a stay at home mom )or even just a mom since most mothers have jobs outside the home)versus one who has no interest, and that has a lot to do with the men they date. It would seem to me that many men who have more traditional views on marriage would be more willing to pay a lot (if not all/most)because he assumes to be he'll be the breadwinner. Because that whole lifestyle has never been for me I've sought out different types of men. Not saying I intentionally seek out men expecting me to pay, it's just that I come across these men more often. Most of the men in my dating pool either already have kids, don't want them or do but tend not to want to date me. Every so often I do come across men who want children and want to date me but they tend to be more conservative and more open to paying. Having said all of that, to me a man who asks me out then expects me to pay will likely not get a second date.
Btw those men who expect the wife to do the bulk of childrearing and do the pay the bulk bills are the biggest assholes to me. To me it either should be equal (or close to it)in childrearing and bill paying or one does the bills and the other the majority of childrearing.
xStacey
08-03-2014, 04:11 PM
I don't think anyone needs to prove anything and I don't like when men say "I bought dinner, she has to put out". Not that I agree (I don't)but it makes more sense than a man saying "she needs to put out no matter" if that makes sense. I think what happens a lot (at least what I've seen)are two kinds of men who pay on the first date and that are the men who are truly honorable and really respect women and those who look at it as payback. I'm kind of cynical myself and would more than likely assume if he asked me out on a first date and then spent a lot that he isn't doing that because he likes me but because he assumes he'll get sex. In general I am cynical because I rarely come across the men are very honorable men. Most of the honorable men I do meet have been stung by women (I don't mean sexually)so they usually will mention casual dating until they know I have no intention of screwing them over. Most of them do end up paying but it is different to me to go to a cheap date versus an expensive one at first.
This might not make much sense but it's what I usually see. Yes the men I know will pay the first date but seem to suggest something very cheap. I don't come across the men many are mentioning who take them to 5 star restaurants and pay and expect nothing. I come across men who will pay but will take me to some mom and pop restaurant (nothing wrong with that), or men who will wine and dine me but expect sex, or the men who expect me to pay.
Keep in mind though that this is because my dating pool is different than most here. My dating pool consists of men with kids and/or exwives and their financial obligations to them, men who have been stung by women, men who have had lots of sexual partners, and men who have little dating experience and don't know how to date. This really affects the type of men I come across. The broke men don't spend as much and those who got stung aren't as likely to spend much. The guys with little dating experience are the strangest and many are so set in their ways they often don't know if they should pay or not.
Totally agree with you on this!! Around November, I went out with a guy who had almost no dating experience, never had a girlfriend and had just lost his virginity last summer. Never again!!
He seemed intelligent at first, he's doing a masters in Physics, is a straight A student and the president of the university's student association, but he really *didn't* know how to talk to girls! We went to this dessert place, it wasn't expensive but the food is good. When the waiter asked if it's one bill or two, I was waiting for him to answer but he didn't so I replied separate. Then when the waiter leaves he asks me did I just screw up? I said well, I know you don't date often but usually the guy pays on the first date. So he said okay and paid the total but then started talking about how he doesn't want to have to take care of a girl blabla (???). He did not leave me such a good impression but I thought I'd give him a second chance since he's not experienced and he seemed okay.
I wasn't sure if I wanted to see him again but we keep texting every now and then. He started asking me to go on a second date with him during final exams. I was extremely busy and told him to wait until exams are over. He kept begging me almost every day to go on a date with him and on one occasion, he really wanted to go out for sushis. I said I couldn't but he kept begging and begging, I was ignoring his texts and then at his last attempt he says if you come today I will pay for you!! I was thinking err... So you've been begging me for weeks to go on a second date with you but you were not planning on paying... Then you tell me you will foot the bill to convince me to go on a date with you?! LOL
I stopped talking to him after some really weird conversations we've had, especially about sex. We've had a tallk about pubic hair and he was telling me how he doesn't shave or trim, he's never heard about guys shaving, he's traumatized at the thought that a guy would do that. Pubic hair is manly and virile... He also complained about not having enough sex, having a small dick, how it wouldn't be so bad if he knew how to use it but he doesn't know how yet... Told me sex made him feel powerful, but he wasn't sure if he liked it, not that sex feels bad but it feels strange, maybe it's because his penis is not used to being in warm and humid places (in his own words). All of this didn't really make me feel like wanting too see him again so I blocked his number...
Kellydancer
08-03-2014, 04:37 PM
That guy does sound strange but I suppose (in a way)I can understand his confusion. I mean it's usually common sense that the person who does the asking out pays and it's generally the man or that most women assume he will pay anyway. I have a male friend who apparently wants to take me out but I believe he is inexperience and doing some strange things like asking me to go out on a date with him and HIS MOTHER. I would assume he would pay for me but knowing how inexperienced he is he might assume I should pay for me. In his case he actually makes more than me so me paying seems odd. The other things that guy did definitely sound like inexperience, my friend will often say things that are weird, such as online dating is strictly people with diseases looking for sex.
zsigginz
08-04-2014, 05:06 PM
I do agree that a guy should always pay on the first date. If anything, it symbolizes the fact that he is able, and willing, to provide. I also see it as kind of a respect thing, just because it is a cultural norm. After the first date, however, it is definitely okay for the woman to pay. My man and I split costs on almost everything. I pay for a movie, he pays for dinner. I pay for gas, he buys me lunch.
Naiad
08-05-2014, 10:37 AM
I totally agree that a guy should expect to/offer to pay on the first few dates. I would have him pay at least the first one. That's my personal preference anyway, others can have their own.
But after that - while the idea of being "taking care of" by a man financially is intriguing, I don't really think the idea fits in with a lot of modern relationships, particularity one that involves sex work.
In traditional* relationships there is a certain sense of possessiveness where the woman sort of "belongs to" the man, and he is expected to provide and care for her financially, often whether she has children or not. And of course in our modern culture the woman doesn't actually belong to anybody else, it's more about how the couple interacts and how the relationship is structured. I could give examples but I'm sure we all know what that mindset entails. It's not inherently a bad thing, it can be a very romantic (or even kinky) too and there are still couples who operate off of this premise. For submissive women who are selective in their partners this could work out very well.
But with sex work I feel like there is inherently (in the way that most of us here approach it, not survival sex work etc) a sense of independence that goes along with it. Yes, it's just our job but we are still interacting with a lot of men, acting flirty and receiving gifts because they adore us. The gifts we get are often worth more money then what one partner could give us and our earning potential is frequently higher. I can see why a guy who wants a more "traditional" relationship would have a really hard time with this. It might feel unfair, or at least less romantic for him to be taking care of all her financial needs, but she is interacting "sexually" (even if it's just acting) and sometimes emotionally with a bunch of other guys and getting gifts from them too.
I'm definitely not saying there would be anything wrong with that setup either, but I imagine the relationship would be more like a sugar daddy or maybe some kind of cuckold/findom if there was a kinky element involved. And sugar daddy relationships are a valid path if that's what both parties want but I would argue there are usually some romantic limitations between the two parties unless this is somehow based in their kinks (like for example he is a dom and she works under his approval or whatever, because it's fun).
This is getting a little esoteric but my point is that while it's possible to be a sex worker and also have your boyfriend/husband be the financial provider 100%, in most cases this would be a deviation from both our traditional and popular/modern models of relationships. I can see how a guy who wants a "traditional" relationship would not be interested in dating a sex worker, and how a guy who wants a "modern" relationship would not be that interested in being the financial provider - unless again, it's a kinky thing.
This isn't necessarily including when it ends up that way out of convenience, like the guy makes way more money anyway, or it's kind of an off season for her and she needs extra help, or she supported him at one point and now he's supporting her. I mean that stuff happens and as partners we help each other out. I'm thinking more like, the women is already a sex worker and intends for this to be her career, and how they expect things to work out long term when they first start dating.
I'm also not saying that being sex workers makes us "unworthy" of being treated or receiving gifts or whatever. Lol that would be stupid. A gift from my bf is waaaay different then a "gift" from a customer regardless of how much it cost. I'm talking more of how bills and dates are generally split in the long term.
These are just generalities of course. It's not always black and white.
*Traditional and modern being relative to what culture and time period we're talking about but I mean what is currently most relevant to present day western culture.
MarvelGirl
08-05-2014, 10:46 AM
Some of you are being real assholes on this thread.
It's perfectly ok to have your own personal standards. You want a guy to pay for everything, cool, have fun with that. You want to split things, cool, have fun with that. You want to pay, cool, have fun with that.
You start telling other people what they need to do on their dates, then you're being an asshole. You can ask a guy to pay for you without insulting women who don't do that. Just like you can pay your own way without insulting women who aren't like you. It's really not that hard.
rickdugan
08-05-2014, 12:35 PM
Some of you are being real assholes on this thread.
It's perfectly ok to have your own personal standards. You want a guy to pay for everything, cool, have fun with that. You want to split things, cool, have fun with that. You want to pay, cool, have fun with that.
You start telling other people what they need to do on their dates, then you're being an asshole. You can ask a guy to pay for you without insulting women who don't do that. Just like you can pay your own way without insulting women who aren't like you. It's really not that hard.
Idk Marvel. I've been following this thread pretty carefully and I'm not sure I saw anyone being an asshole. Obviously some of the posters on here have some strong opinions on this topic, but overall I thought that this thread was pretty civil and I'm not sure where any insults were leveled at anyone. Maybe I missed something? :shrug:
Kellydancer
08-05-2014, 12:59 PM
Just for the record I couldn't care less what people do on their dates. Hey if a woman expects him to pay for everything and always pay has no effect on my life. Likewise, the opposite is also fine too. My only issue are when men ask me out then expect me to pay or worse expect me to pay for him. I do have a problem with that. Only exception I think would be when I did online and I expected to pay (and often insisted I pay). I always expected to pay if I asked him out (and did ask men out).
LaPatrona
08-05-2014, 01:35 PM
Who ever invites pay. Specially if you're trying to pursuit me.
I once had a guy who invited me on three dates and he never seem to mind paying. One day he started whining about how I never make an attempt to reach for the check and pay on the only three dates we went on (they were all less than $90). I just look at him, smile and left.
After that he would called me everyday asking me out on more dates or to come over, and saying that he didn't want me to pay, he just wanted to see if I could show some attempt in paying, because that would show I actually care about him. I simply ignored him and blocked his number, never waste my words with him.
I'm sorry but I don't have time for whines, cheapos, and insecurities.