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Aurora_Sunset
09-25-2014, 09:54 PM
One of my pet peeves is the frivolous law suits that plague America today. Getting burned by MCDonald's coffee and suing for millions of dollars. Guess what, coffee is supposed to be hot.



I'm sorry, I know this isn't directly relevant to this thread, but it really irks me when people reference the McDonald's coffee case as the epitome of "frivolous lawsuits."

http://www.upworthy.com/ever-hear-about-the-lady-that-spilled-coffee-on-herself-at-mcdonalds-then-sued-for-millions

Nobody ever bothers to actually research the facts of that case. They just go with the media-projected jokes of "Oh, what a dumbass, coffee is obviously hot." Really? Hot enough to cause third degree burns? Is that really fucking necessary? Is that a joke? Is that what you want to put in your mouth or really have anywhere near you? She didn't even get as much money as people think, and most of it probably went to medical bills, and the story got dramatically twisted to make her look like an idiot.

I think most "frivolous lawsuits" are not as frivolous as actually projected in the media. If they were, they'd end up on Judge Judy (or whoever is doing that sort of thing nowadays), not in a real courtroom. That's what the media does. That's what the opposition to the lawsuits wants to happen - for it to turn into a joke, a soundbite, nothing to be taken seriously with serious points.

Melonie
09-26-2014, 07:15 AM
Is 88 hours a year a job or a hobby? Is there more value to the cheerleaders to get the exposure and future career benefits from the prestige of being an NFL cheerleader as a cheerleader, or to risk all that for the chance to be paid minimum wage for 88 hours per year? Especially given that the NFL seems inclined to just cancel the squads rather than deal with this.


I think most "frivolous lawsuits" are not as frivolous as actually projected in the media. If they were, they'd end up on Judge Judy (or whoever is doing that sort of thing nowadays), not in a real courtroom. That's what the media does. That's what the opposition to the lawsuits wants to happen - for it to turn into a joke, a soundbite, nothing to be taken seriously with serious points.

I spoke with a business owner acquaintance who is more familiar than he ever wanted to be regarding potential 'employee' lawsuits. Where NFL cheerleaders are concerned, he points out the following possibilities ...

- 'Bellagio / Disney Word' precedent regarding personal / physical appearance. This could lead to lawsuits by future cheerleaders who are 'dropped' from the squad, or not picked up again the following season ... and could also require NFL clubs to retain particular cheerleaders whose physical appearance has 'declined' to give those particular girls an opportunity to reverse the 'decline'.

- Age Discrimination. This could lead to lawsuits by 'older' cheerleaders who are not picked up again the following season, despite their 100% ability to perform. There is also a potential for future lawsuits to be brought by girls who tried out for NFL cheerleader squads but who were not 'hired'.

- Sexual Harrassment / Hostile Work Place. This amounts to a Pandora's Box full of future lawsuit possibilities.

My acquaintance also mentioned that, since media exposure is a central reason for girls to seek work as NFL cheerleaders, the media exposure resulting from future lawsuits is likely to provide a strong motivation for such lawsuits to be brought.

However, my acquaintance agrees that the 'handwriting is on the wall' regarding probable NFL club reactions to such 'employee' status lawsuits ... they will probably follow the precedent set by the Buffalo Bills and simply abolish the cheerleading squads, because 'employee' status would create more potential 'problems', and more potential bad publicity, than the cheerleading squads are 'worth' to the clubowners.

Djoser
09-26-2014, 08:10 AM
What is this shit I am now reading about the NFL being a Non-Profit organization??

"The National Football League is the world’s most popular and wealthiest sports league. It earns more than $9 billion in annual revenue. But did you know that the NFL is considered a tax-exempt nonprofit under U.S. law? NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell makes over $44 million a year, which means that the leader of this “nonprofit” makes millions more than the CEOs of for-profit companies like Coca-Cola and Walmart."


Regardless of the tax status, the NFL indisputably brings in billions of dollars a year. But won't even pay minimum wage to its dancers--even if it's only 88 hours a year--it'll disband the cheerleading squads instead.


This screams 'CHEAP MOTHERFUCKERS' to me. This dipshit Goodell making 44 million a year and refusing to shell out a few hundred for the female athletes promoting the sport?


They are in effect throwing quarters at their own strippers, and telling them they ought to be grateful for it. Actually they are throwing wooden nickels, when it comes down to it.


The fact that we have people here in a stripper forum posting that cheerleaders don't even deserve minimum wage makes me want to vomit.

Djoser
09-26-2014, 08:54 AM
I'm sorry, I know this isn't directly relevant to this thread, but it really irks me when people reference the McDonald's coffee case as the epitome of "frivolous lawsuits."




No need to apologize, not when we have people claiming that the multi-millionaires & billionaires running the NFL are being 'extorted' and 'stolen' from.

Clearly this woman was only trying to 'extort' money from McDonalds when she rejected their initial offer of EIGHT HUNDRED DOLLARS in compensation for THESE BURNS:


http://i.imgur.com/EFYLeLx.png


http://i.imgur.com/hak8sfH.png

MrMike1952
09-26-2014, 08:58 AM
I spoke with a business owner acquaintance who is more familiar than he ever wanted to be regarding potential 'employee' lawsuits. Where NFL cheerleaders are concerned, he points out the following possibilities ...

- 'Bellagio / Disney Word' precedent regarding personal / physical appearance. This could lead to lawsuits by future cheerleaders who are 'dropped' from the squad, or not picked up again the following season ... and could also require NFL clubs to retain particular cheerleaders whose physical appearance has 'declined' to give those particular girls an opportunity to reverse the 'decline'.

- Age Discrimination. This could lead to lawsuits by 'older' cheerleaders who are not picked up again the following season, despite their 100% ability to perform. There is also a potential for future lawsuits to be brought by girls who tried out for NFL cheerleader squads but who were not 'hired'.

- Sexual Harrassment / Hostile Work Place. This amounts to a Pandora's Box full of future lawsuit possibilities.

My acquaintance also mentioned that, since media exposure is a central reason for girls to seek work as NFL cheerleaders, the media exposure resulting from future lawsuits is likely to provide a strong motivation for such lawsuits to be brought.

However, my acquaintance agrees that the 'handwriting is on the wall' regarding probable NFL club reactions to such 'employee' status lawsuits ... they will probably follow the precedent set by the Buffalo Bills and simply abolish the cheerleading squads, because 'employee' status would create more potential 'problems', and more potential bad publicity, than the cheerleading squads are 'worth' to the clubowners.

The purpose of having laws to protect employees is to prevent extreme forms of exploitation. Given the popularity of the cheerleaders, especially in warmer markets that Buffalo (pretty much anywhere), I would be shocked if most teams did away with their squads. This is the second major reason guys watch football. And certainly, the teams can afford to pay the cheerleaders. The same horrible consequences were predicted when football players exercised their right as employees to join a union. Obviously, teams did not go out of business, but the employees (the players) started to make a lot more money.
Anyone who works for a living should not resent efforts by any workers to get paid for their work. (Ok, especially someone who does such similar work and who runs into people every day who do not understand why the performer expects or even wants to be paid).

Djoser
09-26-2014, 09:13 AM
Anyone who works for a living should not resent efforts by any workers to get paid for their work. (Ok, especially someone who does such similar work and who runs into people every day who do not understand why the performer expects or even wants to be paid).

EXACTLY.

This thread is rapidly becoming a fucking joke. 'Better not actually PAY HIGHLY TALENTED WOMEN for their efforts! Not even minimum fucking wage...which they clearly do NOT deserve...It could lead to all kinds of nasty lawsuits!!'

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Melonie
09-26-2014, 09:21 AM
^^^ again, I don't think that anyone is actually saying that NFL cheerleaders shouldn't pursue 'employee' lawsuits, or don't deserve to earn more money. What IS being said is that, much like similar 'employee' lawsuits brought by strippers, the end result could very well do more harm than good in 'real world' terms.

Djoser
09-26-2014, 09:35 AM
I don't think that anyone is actually saying that NFL cheerleaders shouldn't pursue 'employee' lawsuits, or don't deserve to earn more money.

That is exactly and precisely what is being said, right here in this thread.


What IS being said is that, much like similar 'employee' lawsuits brought by strippers, the end result could very well do more harm than good in 'real world' terms.

There is an enormous difference between the lawsuits. Those dancers had the opportunity to make all kinds of money. NFL cheerleaders are being told they aren't even worth minimum wage, when they are as highly skilled as those bozos out on the field.

Kellydancer
09-26-2014, 09:38 AM
I hadn't planned to post any further in this thread, but if folks are gonna continue to direct comments at me, let me just respond with a couple comments.

Audrey, I don't dispute that the cheerleading you are referring to requires great skill, great commitment and a huge amount of practice. I have seen cheerleader competitions on ESPN, and they are amazing to watch. It certainly is as difficult as any other sport. I am not disputing that. However, cheerleading in the NFL is nothing like it, at least at the games I've been to or seen on TV. Essentially, in the NFL, they stand on the sidelines and shake pom poms. They do a little more than that, but not much. They do none of the physical routines that you are describing.

Perhaps extortion is too strongly charged word to use, but my point is, that from a legal perspective, they are not employees, they are volunteers. They are trying to use the legal system to change that to be treated as an employee. One of my pet peeves is the frivolous law suits that plague America today. Getting burned by MCDonald's coffee and suing for millions of dollars. Guess what, coffee is supposed to be hot.

Right or wrong, the NFL doesn't consider it a job worth paying for. If you don't want to cheerlead for them as a volunteer, move on. They are not obligated to create a new job/position called cheerleader. In fact, there are many women who would kill for the chance to be a volunteer cheerleader. They turn away thousands every year.

If the legal system decides that this is, in fact a job, and not a volunteer position, then the NFL would have to either pay minimum wage, or cancel the cheerleading squads. Most likely, if the NFL is forced to treat cheerleading as a job, they will just cancel the squads.

Consider, that even if the NFL kept the cheerleaders and paid minimum wage, that would still amount to a very part time job, certainly not enough to live on. They practice twice a week for 4 hours, and they perform at 8 home games per year. So this job would be for 11 hours per week for eight weeks. That's about 88 hours per year of paid time (plus any special appearances). A regular job is 1,680 hours per year.

Is 88 hours a year a job or a hobby? Is there more value to the cheerleaders to get the exposure and future career benefits from the prestige of being an NFL cheerleader as a cheerleader, or to risk all that for the chance to be paid minimum wage for 88 hours per year? Especially given that the NFL seems inclined to just cancel the squads rather than deal with this.

You do know that many of these women work more than just the games? They are expected to do public appearances, etc and apparently they have to give most of that money to the team. That isn't fair. Let me guess, you're one of those...who sits and watches football but have never participated in sports. I know a lot like that who don't realize the cheerleaders do in fact work hard. They should be paid, especially since there are standards they have to keep up (makeup, hair etc).

Let's also not forget the NFL is one of the most misogynist organizations ever. Look at how they have handled recent issues. It's known that many football players are scum. Not all, many are decent people (my dad worked for a company partly owned by a football legend who was a genuine good guy and well loved by everyone) but not too many. It starts early on. To give an example when I was in high school the star of the team beat up his cheerleader girlfriend in the hallway and no one did anything. Why? because football players get away with too much. Other football players got passed in classes because they were players.

rickdugan
09-26-2014, 10:01 AM
DJ, you keep running the minimum wage argument up the flag pole like it is the real issue here. It isn't. Employee status does a hell of a lot more than require paying minimum wage. It affords a variety of federal and state mandated workplace protections that don't exist for volunteers and/or contractors and failure to provide these protections opens you up to lawsuits.

Melonie laid it out very well in post 102 and she was not exaggerating in the slightest. If cheerleaders became statutory employees, then the next NFL lawsuit we will be reading about will be 13 bitter ex-cheerleaders claiming that fans verbally harrassed them, or they felt pressured to sleep with players, or...you name it. It will be a matter of when, not if, and the number will likely be a lot higher than $1.25 million. Seriously, how in the world can you possibly control all of those variables in highly charged atmospheres with screaming fans, scantily clad cheerleaders and idolized NFL players? Also, what is the sense of keeping a cheerleading squad when you cannot cull them out as they get old, fat or both?

So yes, the owners will likely shut the squads down if they must treat cheerleaders as employees. There is no way that they are going to leave themselves open to those types of lawsuits, which are not only possible but very likely, nor would they want to leave themselvess open to all of the bad PR associated with those suits. It just ain't gonna' happen.

oldster
09-26-2014, 10:20 AM
It is unlikely that refusing them employee status has any logical basis other than this is how we do it, and it is also unlikely to save them from any lawsuits about anything, as once you are a defacto employee, the lack of paying you is irrelevant. You work under team direction, in team facilities, according to rules promulgated by the team, you are an employee. IF a CEO sexually harasses a wall street intern, she sues same as an employee. Insulating the team from lawsuits is no excuse for allowing them to be treated poorly,and reflects the same if they are or are not employees. It is the teams fault, it is their responsibility to know how everyone in their facility is being paid/treated and act accordingly.

Djoser
09-26-2014, 10:58 AM
DJ, you keep running the minimum wage argument up the flag pole like it is the real issue here. It isn't.

The hell it isn't. It's been posted repeatedly and emphatically that these highly talented women should not even expect minimum wage. THAT is what is being run up the fucking flagpole. I am amazed that anyone would even dream of posting that kind of thing in a forum devoted to women entertaining men by dancing for them.

Furthermore, the very idea that they should be treated...GASP!...as employees is being touted as opening the floodgates of hell, communism, and god knows what other nightmarish possibilities.

Once again, it's quite simple. Either you believe these women who are busting their asses for all the men out there--players and fans and OWNERS alike--deserve to be paid for their effort, or you don't.

Repeatedly raising the objection that this will lead to waves of unwarranted lawsuits is paranoid IMO. I don't see a bunch of grannies working at Hooters (though truthfully I haven't been to one in many, many years), or the various spinoff restaurant chains.

gameover
09-26-2014, 11:30 AM
You do know that many of these women work more than just the games? They are expected to do public appearances, etc and apparently they have to give most of that money to the team. That isn't fair. Let me guess, you're one of those...who sits and watches football but have never participated in sports. I know a lot like that who don't realize the cheerleaders do in fact work hard. They should be paid, especially since there are standards they have to keep up (makeup, hair etc).

Let's also not forget the NFL is one of the most misogynist organizations ever. Look at how they have handled recent issues. It's known that many football players are scum. Not all, many are decent people (my dad worked for a company partly owned by a football legend who was a genuine good guy and well loved by everyone) but not too many. It starts early on. To give an example when I was in high school the star of the team beat up his cheerleader girlfriend in the hallway and no one did anything. Why? because football players get away with too much. Other football players got passed in classes because they were players.

Kelly, I did mention special appearances. I believe those are done for charity, not for profit.

I was on the cross country track team in high school. I was far too skinny to play football. Maybe I chose track, because it helped me evade football players. :)

I agree that many football players get preferential treatment in school, and certainly some do qualify as scum. The NFL has looked the other way, or perhaps even covered up misconduct by their players. That is totally wrong, and it looks like recent events with Ray Rice and Adrian Petersen may finally force them to address this.

rickdugan
09-26-2014, 12:00 PM
DJ, Hooters has been sued multiple times already. Google it. They were even sued by a group of guys who felt discriminated against, which led to a multi-million dollar settlement and the chain agreeing to reserve 3 male slots in each outlet. Hooters will likely be sued again in the future. They are willing to deal with it because they must if they wish to operate using their current sales gimmick - it is a cost of doing business.

I sincerely doubt that an NFL team is going to open itself up to the same litigation exposure, including legal costs, settlement awards and just general headaches, over non-essential cheerleading squads. It ain't gonna' happen. So if these 13 ex-cheerleaders get their few bucks then you might be cheering, but most current and future NFL cheerleaders won't be. ;)

Melonie
09-26-2014, 01:04 PM
It is unlikely that refusing them employee status has any logical basis other than this is how we do it, and it is also unlikely to save them from any lawsuits about anything, as once you are a defacto employee, the lack of paying you is irrelevant

ummm ... not really !!! see

(snip)"Lihuan Wang took an unpaid broadcasting internship at Phoenix Satellite Television’s New York office in late 2009. She expected to amass some work experience and maybe a few references. Instead, her supervisor invited her to lunch and to his hotel room, where, she alleged in a court case, he threw his arms around her, forcibly kissed her and squeezed her buttocks.

Then a Syracuse University student, Wang says she resisted his advances—and did so again later when he invited her to Atlantic City, N.J.—and as a result, she wasn’t able to get a job at Phoenix.

Realizing she wasn’t the only employee to experience such abuse, she filed a suit against the company in 2013. The claim was tossed—but not because she wasn’t subject to a hostile work environment. Judge Kevin Castel found that Wang was not actually an employee and, as such, wasn’t protected by the New York City Human Rights Law."(snip)



DJ, Hooters has been sued multiple times already. Google it. They were even sued by a group of guys who felt discriminated against, which led to a multi-million dollar settlement and the chain agreeing to reserve 3 male slots in each outlet. Hooters will likely be sued again in the future. They are willing to deal with it because they must if they wish to operate using their current sales gimmick - it is a cost of doing business.

Indeed, one of the most recent Hooters lawsuits is directly relevant to this thread topic !!! From

(snip)In the case of the (not-so) hefty Hooters girl, it's unlikely that any landmark weight discrimination judgments will be made. It just so happens that Michigan is the only state in the U.S. with a specific weight discrimination law. San Francisco, Santa Cruz and the District of Columbia also have weight discrimination laws where overweight and obese people know for certain that they are playing on a level employment field.

More than likely Hooters will settle the lose-it-or-leave-it case rather than take it to trial. After that Undercover Boss "reindeer game" incident, Hooters doesn't really need to give Americans another highly publicized reason to be hated.(snip)

Thus The Wolverines, 49ers and Redskins all directly face potential 'weight discrimination' based lawsuits if their cheerleaders are deemed to be 'statutory employees' ... on top of the other potential 'employee rights and protections' related lawsuits mentioned previously.

As was pointed out in the news blurb, Hooters doesn't really have any realistic option besides settling their 'weight discrimination' lawsuit ... because the Hooters business model is 100% dependent on its 'hot', scantily clad, waitstaff employees. In contrast the NFL's business model is 99% dependent on its football players, and 1% on its cheerleading squads ( not counting the 7 NFL teams that don't maintain cheerleader squads ). However, both Hooters management and NFL management do share one common trait ... neither wants more highly publicized reasons to be hated !!!

oldster
09-26-2014, 01:09 PM
>>>But at least one legal expert argues that those rights should be recognized under the current law. Craig Gurian, the principal author of New York City’s 2005 Local Civil Rights Restoration Act, said that law was designed to prohibit narrow decisions like the one in Wang’s case. Gurian serves as executive director of the Anti-Discrimination Center but attended the hearing on behalf of Fair Play Legislation, a legislative advocacy group.<<<

from the linked article. It is on its face laughable that they would not be covered, and it is no doubt a mis application of law, or a lawsuit under the wrong statute, there is no protection against assault because one is unpaid. Furthermore if civil remedies are unavailable, it makes criminal liability a risk.

Kellydancer
09-26-2014, 01:13 PM
Kelly, I did mention special appearances. I believe those are done for charity, not for profit.

I was on the cross country track team in high school. I was far too skinny to play football. Maybe I chose track, because it helped me evade football players. :)

I agree that many football players get preferential treatment in school, and certainly some do qualify as scum. The NFL has looked the other way, or perhaps even covered up misconduct by their players. That is totally wrong, and it looks like recent events with Ray Rice and Adrian Petersen may finally force them to address this.

No, some they get paid for and apparently have to give most of the money to the owners. That's wrong because the teams are making money off these cheerleaders. I support doing something for charity and many football players have done those as well. In fact our NFL made a hit record where most of the proceeds went to charity. If someone is doing something for charity is one thing, but taking money and giving it to the NFL is another. I always see public appearances around here of football players since training camp is about 20 minutes away from me.

Incidentally I was also a cross country runner. I joined that after cheerleading because I realized being a cheerleader was that I did athletics (the squad was very athletic)without the varsity letter. My school was big enough to have cheerleaders and a pompon squad (tried out, was accepted but went for cross country instead for the same reason).

gameover
09-26-2014, 06:17 PM
No, some they get paid for and apparently have to give most of the money to the owners. That's wrong because the teams are making money off these cheerleaders. I support doing something for charity and many football players have done those as well. In fact our NFL made a hit record where most of the proceeds went to charity. If someone is doing something for charity is one thing, but taking money and giving it to the NFL is another. I always see public appearances around here of football players since training camp is about 20 minutes away from me.

Incidentally I was also a cross country runner. I joined that after cheerleading because I realized being a cheerleader was that I did athletics (the squad was very athletic)without the varsity letter. My school was big enough to have cheerleaders and a pompon squad (tried out, was accepted but went for cross country instead for the same reason).

I had only heard of charity appearances. If they are doing for-profit events, I agree the cheerleaders should be given more money for those.

A fellow cross country runner? I knew I liked you! :)

MrMike1952
09-30-2014, 02:56 PM
I had only heard of charity appearances. If they are doing for-profit events, I agree the cheerleaders should be given more money for those.



Why is it charity if the boss tells you he wants you to donate your time and effort to something he believes in. Charity is when I choose to spend time at the soup kitchen. When my boss tells me to spend my efforts on something he believes in, so that he can look good, I am doing work for him.

Kellydancer
09-30-2014, 04:50 PM
That has happened to me. My boss decided to volunteer me to translate for something going on at headquarters. Keep in mind I wouldn't get paid but it would help the company. I told them no pay no working more hours. I donate time and money to charities I support (animals, kids, military, diseases like cancer etc)not to things I don't.

SnuffleUffleGrass
09-30-2014, 05:43 PM
It reminds me of a culture I studied in anthropology class in college. If any member of the village had too much success on their farm, they believed it was due to the farmer working in league with evil spirits, so they would trash the successful person's farm. As a result this village never rose above the poverty level, because anyone showing prosperity was brought down to the level of the laziest, least successful person in the village. More and more, I think this is what America has become.

This is also called the "Crab In The Bucket" syndrome.......happens a lot in impoverished communities. It means- you can always be sure a bucket of crabs will stay contained b/c once a crab gets high enough to crawl out, the others pull it back in. The tragic thing about many humans is- they dislike the success of others because that success makes them reflect on their own failures. Not everyone is like this but enough are....It's sad.

Back to cheerleaders- IMO the kinds of women who would actually stick themselves in the hole financially to be a cheerleader....probably have a lot more issues that would keep them unsuccessful anyways. A smart cute girl can go work at Hooters and come out ahead. If someone is just obsessed with the kind of opportunities being an NFL cheerleader affords...let them do it.

oldster
10-01-2014, 06:27 AM
It reminds me of a culture I studied in anthropology class in college. If any member of the village had too much success on their farm, they believed it was due to the farmer working in league with evil spirits, so they would trash the successful person's farm. As a result this village never rose above the poverty level, because anyone showing prosperity was brought down to the level of the laziest, least successful person in the village. More and more, I think this is what America has become.

sorry sounds like something Rush made up with no idea what subsistence farming is. I call BS on that one.

Melonie
10-01-2014, 07:57 AM
^^^ the first time I remember hearing a reference to 'crab mentality' was from actor Terrence Howard ...

"“We have a crab mentality where we still pull each other down because of choices that we make.”"



Back to cheerleaders- IMO the kinds of women who would actually stick themselves in the hole financially to be a cheerleader....probably have a lot more issues that would keep them unsuccessful anyways. A smart cute girl can go work at Hooters and come out ahead. If someone is just obsessed with the kind of opportunities being an NFL cheerleader affords...let them do it.

ultimately, that's what this discussion is actually about.

gameover
10-01-2014, 10:17 PM
sorry sounds like something Rush made up with no idea what subsistence farming is. I call BS on that one.

I'm not clever enough to make up something that weird. It stuck in my mind all these years because it was so strange. Choose to believe it or not. Many people choose to disbelieve truths they don't like, so you are in good company.

Optimist
10-02-2014, 07:00 AM
I'm not clever enough to make up something that weird. It stuck in my mind all these years because it was so strange. Choose to believe it or not. Many people choose to disbelieve truths they don't like, so you are in good company.

Don't you want to actually do the work of citing your old textbook and the section it was in? Otherwise your post comes off as an opinion being faked as fact.

Kellydancer
10-02-2014, 09:25 AM
That sounds like something I read about Communism years ago. I can't remember the story but it was that the person who achieves more if often ostracized. We are seeing this in school where often the smartest kids are told not to do as well because it offends the others.

Djoser
10-02-2014, 01:05 PM
Back to cheerleaders- IMO the kinds of women who would actually stick themselves in the hole financially to be a cheerleader....probably have a lot more issues that would keep them unsuccessful anyways. A smart cute girl can go work at Hooters and come out ahead. If someone is just obsessed with the kind of opportunities being an NFL cheerleader affords...let them do it.

ultimately, that's what this discussion is actually about.

Not exactly. The OP started the thread because she saw the NFL being greedy motherfuckers and refusing to pay even minimum wage to talented athletes busting their asses to promote a multi-billion dollar industry.

There might be threads elsewhere about why it is actually very noble and patriotic for really talented people to be sucking up to rich powerful men--to the extent of donating hundreds of hours each of hard labor and serious athletic talent--and how objecting to this practice is the same as being a communist.



Choose to believe it or not. Many people choose to disbelieve truths they don't like, so you are in good company.

Nice, not-so-subtle way to claim you know what Truth is, and he does not, only because he 'doesn't like it'--like the rest of us pinko socialists I guess. :D


It's just sad that so many think the path to success is just to sue someone, instead of study and hard work.

These cheerleaders DO put in many hundreds of hours of study/practice and hard work. That is precisely why some of us believe that it is outrageous they are not being paid even minimum wage.


It reminds me of a culture I studied in anthropology class in college. If any member of the village had too much success on their farm, they believed it was due to the farmer working in league with evil spirits, so they would trash the successful person's farm. As a result this village never rose above the poverty level, because anyone showing prosperity was brought down to the level of the laziest, least successful person in the village. More and more, I think this is what America has become.

I once read a semi-fictionalized biography of Shaka Zulu, based largely on oral tradition collected by an old explorer who spent a lot of time with the Zulus. According to my memory of this book, there was a practice n Shaka's day called 'smelling out the witches', where the entire community would gather and the old woman witch doctor would carry around some kind of gourd or magical talisman, and the people would humm more or less loudly as she passed by each member of the tribe. If they hummed really loudly for one person, that person would have sharp sticks pounded repeatedly up their rectums, because they were a witch.

This book also explained some of Shaka Zulu's extreme, paranoid, and tyrannical behavior as being due to childhood trauma--it seems Shaka had a very tiny penis, by Zulu standards, and the other boys made fun of him a lot.

I don't know what the Real Truth might have been there, but I do suspect that the kind of rich, powerful men who enjoy having large numbers of people busting their asses for free in an effort to suck up to them, and who refuse to compensate those people, must have very small penes indeed. More and more, this is what a lot of people want America to become.

Djoser
10-02-2014, 01:17 PM
For me, it's not about the lawsuit, and a few retired cheerleaders (or about to be retired), maybe or maybe not getting minimum wage. It's the entire notion that one set of hard-working athletes deserves millions each, and another set of equally hard-working athletes in the same organization ought to work for free.

It has pissed me off for many years that the NFL lacks the BALLS to pay women for busting their asses to promote the sport. Not that I ever lost sleep because of it.

SnuffleUffleGrass
10-03-2014, 12:26 PM
http://bossip.com/1019771/a-gallery-of-celebrities-you-didnt-know-worked-at-hooters39204/

On a lighter note- see, Hooters can be just as helpful to launching a pretty girl towards better opportunities.

Kellydancer
10-03-2014, 01:14 PM
There might be threads elsewhere about why it is actually very noble and patriotic for really talented people to be sucking up to rich powerful men--to the extent of donating hundreds of hours each of hard labor and serious athletic talent--and how objecting to this practice is the same as being a communist.

This comment reminds me a lot of internships. There is this underlying idea that people should be honored to work for free. Because as a society we often worship corporations many get away with this. At first it started with offering college credit for a student to learn on the job. Some paid, others didn't. Some were then offered jobs but many more weren't because the company saw the benefit of getting new interns all the time. Not just to learn things but often to do work that should be paid, including cleaning the company. It has graduated past that though and has become a problem for people past college. A few years ago I attended a job fair for professionals and most "job"s were volunteer experiences for companies that were not non profit and these were actual jobs. Among these "volunteer experiences" were people looking for lawyers, accountants and public relations people and these were for profit companies such as law firm and tax companies.

Melonie
10-03-2014, 01:54 PM
It's the entire notion that one set of hard-working athletes deserves millions each, and another set of equally hard-working athletes in the same organization ought to work for free.

I actually agree with this. Pro athletes are IMHO ridiculously overpaid in some circumstances. But the fact remains that when an NFL team has an opening for a quarterback, the list of potential fully qualified 'applicants' is ridiculously short. On the flip side, when an NFL team puts on cheerleader tryouts, hundreds of girls show up. When an NFL team hires that talented quarterback versus a mediocre quarterback, his 'contribution' can mean millions in additional revenues if the team makes the playoffs, and tens of millions in additional revenues if the team makes the Super Bowl. On the flip side, when an NFL team selects an outstanding cheerleader versus a mediocre cheerleader, the difference in revenues is essentially zero.

Translation, professional athletes represent major 'payback on investment' potential for NFL ( and other professional sports ) teams in the form of increased revenues, thus they have 'leverage' to negotiate salaries. Cheerleaders have zero leverage.



A few years ago I attended a job fair for professionals and most "job"s were volunteer experiences for companies that were not non profit and these were actual jobs. Among these "volunteer experiences" were people looking for lawyers, accountants and public relations people and these were for profit companies such as law firm and tax companies.

This is along the same lines as my original criticism. Where should the 'line be drawn' where intangible benefits are no longer sufficient, thus mandating that all 'workers' be paid a ( minimum wage ) salary even though willing 'volunteers' are already content with being 'paid' in intangible benefits ?

eagle2
10-03-2014, 08:13 PM
NFL teams don't make money from winning games. They make money by getting people to pay lots of money to see them play, and one of the reasons people pay lots of money, is to see the cheerleaders. If that wasn't the case, they wouldn't have cheerleaders. Here's the value and 2012 income of NFL teams:
http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/201308/only-one-nfl-team-lost-money-2012

and here's the standings:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2012/

The 8 - 8 Dallas Cowboys led the league in income with $250 million, while the NFC champions, the 49ers' income was $10.2 million. The 6-10 Jets' income was $52.8 million, while the Super Bowl Champions, the Baltimore Ravens' income was $48.3 million.

If NFL cheerleaders work hard and bring in revenue for their teams, they're entitled to decent pay for their work.

Melonie
10-04-2014, 05:02 AM
^^^ not meaning to be argumentative, but there's absolutely NO factual linkage between an NFL team maintaining a cheerleading squad versus team profitability. Consider the relative 2012 profitability of NFL teams that do NOT have cheerleaders ...

Giants $64 million
Bears $63 million
Packers $54 million
Steelers $28 million
Browns $17 million
Lions - minus $3 million

Also the Bills were one of the lowest earning NFL franchises in 2012, even though they still fielded a cheerleading squad at the time.

As to teams not earning money from winning games, how much playoff / super bowl ticket sales revenue do NFL teams receive when they don't win enough games to make the playoffs ??? How much advertising revenue kickbacks from playoff / super bowl appearance do NFL teams receive when they don't win enough games to make the playoffs ???

The point, of course, is that NFL teams with cheerleader squads, and NFL teams without cheerleader squads, are spread throughout the spectrum of NFL team 'profitability'. If there were any truth to the assertion that cheerleaders make a significant contribution to team profitability, this would not be the case. In truth, the size of the team's 'local' market, the available discretionary income of the team's 'local market' residents, the total number of games played in a given season ( including playoff / super bowl games ), and other factors such as player salary cost and stadium cost ( or lack thereof ) and debt service cost, are the major contributors to NFL team profitability.

Your Cowboys example includes the contributions made by Dallas arguably having the largest 'local' monopoly market ( northeast club markets are larger, but they aren't 'exclusive' i.e. Giants and Jets or Ravens and Redskins serving virtually the same market ) , the Cowboy franchise having the lowest debt, and the Cowboys playing in a stadium which was 80+% paid for by Texas taxpayers. Trust me, the almost $1 Billion dollars worth of Texas taxpayer money contributed far more to Cowboys profitability than the cheerleaders !!! On the 'flip side', the Lions 'local' monopoly market has shrunk markedly in recent years with the decline of Detroit, they're heavily indebted, the franchise itself had to pay a major portion of stadium costs, etc. Thus attempting to associate the Cowboys huge profits with the presence of a cheerleading squad, or the Lions losses with a lack of a cheerleading squad, is beyond ridiculous.

eagle2
10-04-2014, 09:58 AM
I agree cheerleaders don't have a major impact on team revenue, but they do add to the game experience and some fans may prefer to see them at the games. Obviously cheerleaders' pay shouldn't be in the same range as the players, but they should get something for the work that they do. As for whether or not it's worth it for teams to pay star players millions of dollars because they can help the team make the playoffs, it's kind of irrelevant, since under the players/owners agreement, NFL owners will pay players a certain percentage of their revenue. NFL owners are required to pay players millions of dollars. If there was no agreement, and owners were free to pay players as much or as little as they wanted, it's questionable whether it would be financially beneficial for teams to play players large sums of money to make the playoffs. On average, a football teams payroll is in the area of $100 million. If one owner decided he wanted to keep his expenses down and paid his players a total of $50 million, and another owner decided he was going to pay whatever is necessary to make it to the Superbowl, and he spent $120 million on players' salaries, it's questionable whether or not the additional revenue the owner made from the playoffs would exceed all of the additional money he paid to get the best players. With the owners/players agreement, this is irrelevant since the percentage of revenue that goes to the players is already set.

Kellydancer
10-04-2014, 10:05 AM
The point, of course, is that NFL teams with cheerleader squads, and NFL teams without cheerleader squads, are spread throughout the spectrum of NFL team 'profitability'. If there were any truth to the assertion that cheerleaders make a significant contribution to team profitability, this would not be the case. In truth, the size of the team's 'local' market, the available discretionary income of the team's 'local market' residents, the total number of games played in a given season ( including playoff / super bowl games ), and other factors such as player salary cost and stadium cost ( or lack thereof ) and debt service cost, are the major contributors to NFL team profitability.

I think a lot of this is why some teams are profitable. In the example of the Bears, the "local area" stretches about a 100 miles or so (I believe the next closest team are probably either the Colts or the Green Bay Packers). Also Chicago is home to a lot of wealthy people.

MrMike1952
10-04-2014, 01:23 PM
Excellent point.
I'm old enough to remember when companies were expected to teach their employees how to do their jobs. It was a quaint concept known as "on the job training." The theory was that the company would benefit in the long run from having people know how to do the work of the business. Now, the companies expect someone else to provide job training, or the employees to learn for free.
Not sure what this has to do with stripping any more, except that the companies seem to me to be the ones who have this outrageous sense of entitlement (like strip club managers), not the employees who sue to get their fair share.
Mike

This was intended to credit Kelly for her comment yesterday about internships.

Kellydancer
10-04-2014, 02:51 PM
Excellent point.
I'm old enough to remember when companies were expected to teach their employees how to do their jobs. It was a quaint concept known as "on the job training." The theory was that the company would benefit in the long run from having people know how to do the work of the business. Now, the companies expect someone else to provide job training, or the employees to learn for free.
Not sure what this has to do with stripping any more, except that the companies seem to me to be the ones who have this outrageous sense of entitlement (like strip club managers), not the employees who sue to get their fair share.
Mike

This was intended to credit Kelly for her comment yesterday about internships.

It's all related when you think about. I was a trainer for a government employer and they decided to get rid of training and instead do on the job. It's great for them but no one else. At least they pay people, unlike many internships.

MrMike1952
10-05-2014, 07:11 PM
It's all related when you think about. I was a trainer for a government employer and they decided to get rid of training and instead do on the job. It's great for them but no one else. At least they pay people, unlike many internships.

Its the unpaid stuff that drives me crazy. Whether you use OJT or paid trainers (teachers), the employer is taking responsibility for providing its employees with the skills that the employer needs.

Mike

Kellydancer
10-06-2014, 01:34 PM
It drives me crazy too. I'm all for volunteering for something I support but when it benefits someone it annoys me. Locally I volunteer for the American Legion and church and it helps other people who need help (veterans, kids, the homeless etc)but not someone to make a profit. Internships are helping corporations. Yes it gives people experience but saves corporations money and helps to eliminate jobs, which is bad.

Djoser
10-07-2014, 02:05 PM
Cheerleading is one of those dubious 'All American' traditions that begins in junior high and goes right through college into the 'Real Life' world of the very big & very profitable business of professional football.

To me, it is immaterial whether or not a few football teams have dispensed with the tradition. The entire sport is so laden with bullshit that it is hardly a real game anymore. More a venue to shove commercial propaganda down the untold millions of viewers throats, mostly about the benefits of certain brands of truck, beer, and shaving products, but encompassing a wide variety of consumer goods that people don't really need to function, but are willing to shell out billions of dollars for as they have been trained to do since infancy by the idiot box. Good little consumers, sucking up the pap.

The biggest day of the year for advertising agencies, as well as wife beaters--Superbowl Sunday.

I'd be in favor of them dropping ALL the stupid bullshit, especially the fucking announcers, who are as irritating as anything about the televised games and a major reason why I generally bail the fuck out of any party with the football or basketball games blaring from the TVs. Those guys never shut the hell up, and they rarely have anything to say that adds to the experience--or rather, make it any less excruciatingly boring/irritating.

Watching rugby or Australian rules football--though hardly one of my favorite pastimes to say the least lol--has been infinitely easier to tolerate. Same amount of physical talent involved, just without billions of dollars being exchanged in spinoff.

But I'd much rather watch almost anything than a bunch of guys running back & forth tossing balls around. I'd watch cheerleaders all day long instead--if I watched television at all, which I don't. I can think of any number of things I'd rather watch, or much better yet, go do.

Basically, cheerleaders are obedient, eager little slave girls, put on this earth for one purpose only--to help the masses idolize and worship the guys playing with their balls. It's not at all surprising that the men who run the incredibly profitable business of pro football don't want to pay them even a miniscule, microscopic percentage of their immense profits.

Certainly we could blame the untold hordes of idiotic women so ready & willing to devote themselves to kissing ass on a colossal scale that they will do it for free. Legally, the millionaires and billionaires who own the teams or make such insane amounts of money from the commercial exploitation of several hundred million rabid sports fans have been free of culpability, in letting so many stupid women kiss ass for free.

They are still scumbags, cheap bastards taking advantage of talented, hardworking (if badly misguided) women. Which of course was the point the OP was trying to make.

michele11
10-07-2014, 04:09 PM
^ Honestly I hate when football season roles around again. Like a month ago I was like already!?! There is nothing more annoying than the assholes who get lost in the strip club( oh I'm watching the game). Um yeah they have sports bars for that and your right, they're annoying drrunks that ramble on about nothing.I'm glad none of my boyfriends were never into football or sports! Jason and I use to make fun of the people who'd say my team or our team, like they played for them. Smh.

whirlerz
10-07-2014, 05:22 PM
Cheerleading is one of those dubious 'All American' traditions that begins in junior high and goes right through college into the 'Real Life' world of the very big & very profitable business of professional football.

To me, it is immaterial whether or not a few football teams have dispensed with the tradition. The entire sport is so laden with bullshit that it is hardly a real game anymore. More a venue to shove commercial propaganda down the untold millions of viewers throats, mostly about the benefits of certain brands of truck, beer, and shaving products, but encompassing a wide variety of consumer goods that people don't really need to function, but are willing to shell out billions of dollars for as they have been trained to do since infancy by the idiot box. Good little consumers, sucking up the pap.

The biggest day of the year for advertising agencies, as well as wife beaters--Superbowl Sunday.

I'd be in favor of them dropping ALL the stupid bullshit, especially the fucking announcers, who are as irritating as anything about the televised games and a major reason why I generally bail the fuck out of any party with the football or basketball games blaring from the TVs. Those guys never shut the hell up, and they rarely have anything to say that adds to the experience--or rather, make it any less excruciatingly boring/irritating.

Watching rugby or Australian rules football--though hardly one of my favorite pastimes to say the least lol--has been infinitely easier to tolerate. Same amount of physical talent involved, just without billions of dollars being exchanged in spinoff.

But I'd much rather watch almost anything than a bunch of guys running back & forth tossing balls around. I'd watch cheerleaders all day long instead--if I watched television at all, which I don't. I can think of any number of things I'd rather watch, or much better yet, go do.

Basically, cheerleaders are obedient, eager little slave girls, put on this earth for one purpose only--to help the masses idolize and worship the guys playing with their balls. It's not at all surprising that the men who run the incredibly profitable business of pro football don't want to pay them even a miniscule, microscopic percentage of their immense profits.

Certainly we could blame the untold hordes of idiotic women so ready & willing to devote themselves to kissing ass on a colossal scale that they will do it for free. Legally, the millionaires and billionaires who own the teams or make such insane amounts of money from the commercial exploitation of several hundred million rabid sports fans have been free of culpability, in letting so many stupid women kiss ass for free.

They are still scumbags, cheap bastards taking advantage of talented, hardworking (if badly misguided) women. Which of course was the point the OP was trying to make.

This's one of the BEST. POSTS. Ever! & fuckin' hilarious, & true!^ :)

AlysonRose
10-07-2014, 07:58 PM
grr..i used to cheer lead i high school. still remembering I had a dream of doing it in the NFL. glad that never worked out!!

LindsayLooHoo
10-08-2014, 06:51 PM
Be serious. Being an NFL Cheerleader isn't a job someone gets to support themselves. It's something they do to be able to say, wow I'm an NFL cheerleader, I am so hot! They know what they will be paid going in. No one holds a gun to their heads. Even if they win these lawsuits, they may earn minimum wage. They don't deserve any more than that. There are thousands who would do it for free, or even pay for the privilege.

Some teams don't even bother having them. They could get rid of them,and very few NFL fans would even care.

The sad thing is that these suits are being brought by former cheerleaders who no longer meet the standards of an NFL cheerleader. Some teams may just get rid of the squads if they become too much of a hassle. These ex-cheerleaders would rather ruin it for the current cheerleaders, just for spite. Let's face it, this is just eye candy. Sheesh!

Well most of the women on this site are ALSO "eye candy." We get paid to be someone's fantasy. There's no one holding a gun to our heads. Should we just be grateful for the "privilege" of having a bunch of strange men drool over us? No-we should be fucking paid. We DEMAND it. As should the cheerleaders.

Optimist
10-09-2014, 04:42 AM
Well most of the women on this site are ALSO "eye candy." We get paid to be someone's fantasy. There's no one holding a gun to our heads. Should we just be grateful for the "privilege" of having a bunch of strange men drool over us? No-we should be fucking paid. We DEMAND it. As should the cheerleaders.

Technically most of us pay for the privilege of renting a stage to work.... :no: We aren't paid by our legal employers but pay them a cut of our money. And getting women to demand it is like pissing in the wind. You'll get a flood of illogical arguments and fear mongering on how the industry will collapse without our ongoing exploitation.

lemiwinks31
10-09-2014, 09:02 AM
Technically most of us pay for the privilege of renting a stage to work.... :no: We aren't paid by our legal employers but pay them a cut of our money. And getting women to demand it is like pissing in the wind. You'll get a flood of illogical arguments and fear mongering on how the industry will collapse without our ongoing exploitation.

Are you talking about the stripping industry or the pro football cheerleading industry?

The stripping industry....women would have a great deal of power if they organized, because they have leverage. There is no stripping industry without the dancers.....

Cheerleaders? no. They have no leverage, i think the only people who would care if they went away are the cheerleaders themselves who enjoy it. The teams themselves would drop them in a heartbeat, they dont add revenue to the owners and they wouldnt lose one dollar if they went away. That is why I, and I imagine most of the cheerleaders view it as a hobby.

The Raiders cheerleaders who sued were going for minimum wage for approximately 10 hours per week during the season(4 months)....Who would do something for 10 hours a week for $50 per game? Either people who enjoy doing it, or people who think that it will open up opportunities for them.


(Buffalo Bills cheerleaders is a little different story, they were harrassed and were looking for more protections ...in addition to minimum wage. But the Bills hire a company to provide the cheerleaders. Bills will most likely be dismissed from the suit and the cheerleaders will have to go after the company they are working for.)

lemiwinks31
10-09-2014, 09:12 AM
The cheerleaders will probably win the lawsuit....and get their minimum wage. And i think that some of the more popular squads, (dallas cowgirls, etc) will stick around, but i think there will be quite a few teams that will decide to just disband the squads.

Kellydancer
10-09-2014, 11:59 AM
Technically most of us pay for the privilege of renting a stage to work.... :no: We aren't paid by our legal employers but pay them a cut of our money. And getting women to demand it is like pissing in the wind. You'll get a flood of illogical arguments and fear mongering on how the industry will collapse without our ongoing exploitation.

One thing I hated about stripping is the exploitation. I was lucky because I worked for a few clubs that were fair, and either paid us or charged a low rate which usually went to things like hire more bouncers. However, like everyone else(or almost everyone)I did work for clubs that did it to make money without our feelings. Things like charging high house, THEN on top of it charging a percentage (sometimes as much as 50% or more)of dance/VIP etc fees, and then tell us to tip everyone from the manager (who often was the owner or related to him and making salary), to the bar back, or even require dancers to clean after working. Then there were the clubs that charged fees from everything from being late, to sick, to spending too much time or too little trying to get a dance. Then there were the clubs that would tell dancers when they could work and even when to take breaks. The stupidest example of this is when I worked at a club that offered a free brunch to customers (many of whom got in free and spent little to no money)but the dancers, who were already paying to work there had to pay for the brunch (I declined). As dancers know, there is way too much crap that goes on in clubs, between the customers, other dancers and employees. Dancers are usually independent contractors and the club wouldn't make money without them but are usually treated the shittiest.

At one club I tried to get other dancers to realize we were being exploited but people were afraid to say anything. Meanwhile the one manager would hire anything and laughed on how he was getting stupid bimbos to pay him and yet he got to see them naked.

Getting back to this, I was driving by a church offering basketball and cheerleading lessons. Need I mention the basketball was for boys and cheerleading for girls. This stereotyping starts early. When I was a little girl I begged my parents to allow me to take basketball classes but they didn't have it for girls. Instead I took gymnastics and dancing while my brother took basketball and soccer.

Optimist
10-09-2014, 01:18 PM
Thank goodness Title9 helps ensure girls today get a better shot at full participation.

gameover
10-09-2014, 09:37 PM
Well most of the women on this site are ALSO "eye candy." We get paid to be someone's fantasy. There's no one holding a gun to our heads. Should we just be grateful for the "privilege" of having a bunch of strange men drool over us? No-we should be fucking paid. We DEMAND it. As should the cheerleaders.

Totally different. Guys go to football games to watch football, not the cheerleaders. Guys go to strip clubs to see strippers, so of course we spend money on the strippers.

And guys only spend money on strippers they find physically or intellectually appealing. You can try to DEMAND all you want. If you are not attractive to the customer, you won't be fucking paid by the customer.