Log in

View Full Version : Race and Camming (Survey inside)



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11

GlamourRouge
09-29-2014, 12:22 PM
So, what is the solution? What can we do?

IMO, there is NO solution! Thats why I find this whole thing silly. This thread makes me feel as if white people are supposed to appoligize for being white, which makes no sense at all because no one chooses their skin tone (well unless you Michael Jackson or tan mom it), and not everyone has PERSONALLY had an amazing life due to their skin tone.

In regards to this topic, every black person in the world could tell you what they would LIKE you to do, and its going to be different depending on who you are asking (see below). I've literally asked so many black people (ones that are my friends) this, and every answer they give is different.



It's a tad confusing to me because on the one hand, black people want others to forget they are black... on the other they want everything to be about them being black. So I don't really get what anyone is suppose to do here to fix the problem. It's like damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I find that to be true as well. Every black person I've had this convo with IRL (like my friends and stuff) has told me they HATE when people point out their race and state that they are no different than anyone else and pointing it out makes them uncomfortable.

Melonie
09-29-2014, 12:24 PM
that peeps with skin privilege aren't as aware of systemic racism as those who are the targets of these structures isn't a surprise, after all, it's easy to ignore/not see what one doesn't experience oneself. What is disappointing is that so many are so resistant to attempts to actually name what's going on. In that way silencing and minimizing experiences of racism -systemic as well as overt- allows it to persist.

Very well said !!! However, in fairness, the point must apply equally under all circumstances.

For the benefit of non-US girls reading this thread who may not be aware of this, for the past ~50 years US law has officially established a 'skin privilege' for non-white Americans via 'affirmative action' laws. Dancers and camgirls may be most familiar with the provisions of US law which has allowed colleges to reject applications from some white Americans, while accepting applications from some non-white Americans who, for example, have lower scores on college entrance exams.

For better or worse, a number of US Supreme Court cases have been brought in recent years, with the most recent decision ruling that the state of Michigan's ban on the use of 'race' as a criteria for college admissions as in fact constitutional. However, the US Supreme Court decision still allows for preferential treatment of certain applicants on the basis of 'diversity'. I won't elaborate other than to provide a link to this 6 month old Supreme Court ruling's announcement and discussion ...

Please understand that I am not trying to downplay in any way the long history of racism against black Americans ... which is undeniable. I am merely pointing out that your point about those with 'skin privilege' not being as aware of systemic racism arguably holds true from more than one viewpoint.



There isn't always a socioeconomic benefit of being a certain "color" either. Sometimes, I suppose, just like any other form of privilege like thin privilege, big boob privilege, upper middle class privilege, etc.

In terms of the title of this particular thread, while skin 'color' has an undeniable influence, arguably so do thinness, boob size, etc.

PhatGirlDynomite!!!
09-29-2014, 12:25 PM
We are going all over the place once again. LOL So to add to it.....I had to google that ad with the kids and really I thought those kids were dressed like bears? Unless theres a long tale on the back it wasn't that obvious.

Kinda of a funny story. My sister is married to a white man who calls her "Monkey Boo" as a term of endearment. WTF? It's completely innocent though. Since we were little girls she has always loved to climb things. She can scale anything faster than any person I know. Trees,building,fences whatever. Now they go rock climbing together. So when we were all in town for the funeral he kept saying it. And I swear every time he did, in my mind I could hear someone stopping the needle on the record. Like "What the hell he just call her?" A few people asked about it but no one made a huge deal. But it was pretty funny to me and I needed the laugh.

LaPetiteVierge
09-29-2014, 12:27 PM
It's a tad confusing to me because on the one hand, black people want others to forget they are black... on the other they want everything to be about them being black. So I don't really get what anyone is suppose to do here to fix the problem. It's like damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Lol um... It's not that black people want you to forget they're black nor is it at all that they want "everything to be about them being black".
That's not the situation. The situation is that two main stances get taken on race. There's the racism that manifests in blatant things like bias and prejudice towards people of color, white supremacist ideologies that show themselves in xenophobia and nationalistic pride at the expense of that aforementioned xenophobia, the manipulation of real issues to make it seem as though people of color are their own problem, and things like that. Then there's the innocence stance that proclaims equality when people of color present an issue of racism that exists and negates all efforts on their parts to find a solution while ignoring cultural diversity and suggesting cultural assimilation and silence in the face of adversity.
There's a lesser stance that is not all that common. That's active anti-racism. That's actively seeking to speak out against racism and participating in anti-racism. Not just armchair activism where you maybe say "aw, that's fucked up" when an instance of racism makes mainstream media, but becoming knowledgeable in what things contribute to racism, proactively partaking in the advancement of race relations towards equality through protests/marches/petitions/etc, making more people aware of what racism is, seeking more than just "I don't care what race you are! You're all people!" and so on. Less kumbaya singing and more fighting (not actual physical fighting, but literally being proactive in the advancement of progressions).
You don't have to necessarily leave the comfort of your home and participate, but you can at the very least not ignore when racism happens nor choose to bite your tongue when you have the capacity to speak out against it.

KatyBoleyn
09-29-2014, 12:27 PM
I don't know if its been addressed, but the way the question was worded is interesting.

Does it factor into pay? From our standpoint, absolutely not. 3 of our 5 top earners in the studio programs are "not white" - and even though the names have changed, this has been fairly consistent over the last 9 months. And, while we don't keep exact statistics on race and earnings, I haven't noticed it as being a factor at all in overall earnings for a model.

Interestingly, we've noticed that most customers we've tracked ("For Science!") don't seem to have a long-term preference for a particular race or body type...easily spending $100 on a co-ed and then $100 the next week on a BBBW. In fact, the only factor customers seem to consistently stick to are for sexuality (preference for men/women/TS/couples).

As far as "is race a factor in camming", yes it is. But more precisely, everything is a factor. Hair color, BMI, short/tall, skin color, hair style, tattoos, etc are all "category factors" that the customers use to narrow down their choices when they're in the mood for something.

SarahTime
09-29-2014, 12:28 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex6mbHOR85A
@justanothercamgirl & @SarahTime
This is a video about why white people don't speak out against racism and he partially touches on what should be done.

Okay so a 7 minute video.... and all I can still say is "damned if you do, damned if you don't".....

Doesn't tell me anything at all about a solution.

LaPetiteVierge
09-29-2014, 12:30 PM
I don't know if its been addressed, but the way the question was worded is interesting.

Does it factor into pay? From our standpoint, absolutely not. 3 of our 5 top earners in the studio programs are "not white" - and even though the names have changed, this has been fairly consistent over the last 9 months. And, while we don't keep exact statistics on race and earnings, I haven't noticed it as being a factor at all in overall earnings for a model.

Interestingly, we've noticed that most customers we've tracked ("For Science!") don't seem to have a long-term preference for a particular race or body type...easily spending $100 on a co-ed and then $100 the next week on a BBBW. In fact, the only factor customers seem to consistently stick to are for sexuality (preference for men/women/TS/couples).

As far as "is race a factor in camming", yes it is. But more precisely, everything is a factor. Hair color, BMI, short/tall, skin color, hair style, tattoos, etc are all "category factors" that the customers use to narrow down their choices when they're in the mood for something.
The question was purposefully vague in nature so that a variety of answers could be given, but I mostly expected people to respond to the conversation I posted in regards to race mattering.

SarahTime
09-29-2014, 12:33 PM
I don't know if its been addressed, but the way the question was worded is interesting.

Does it factor into pay? From our standpoint, absolutely not. 3 of our 5 top earners in the studio programs are "not white" - and even though the names have changed, this has been fairly consistent over the last 9 months. And, while we don't keep exact statistics on race and earnings, I haven't noticed it as being a factor at all in overall earnings for a model.

Interestingly, we've noticed that most customers we've tracked ("For Science!") don't seem to have a long-term preference for a particular race or body type...easily spending $100 on a co-ed and then $100 the next week on a BBBW. In fact, the only factor customers seem to consistently stick to are for sexuality (preference for men/women/TS/couples).

As far as "is race a factor in camming", yes it is. But more precisely, everything is a factor. Hair color, BMI, short/tall, skin color, hair style, tattoos, etc are all "category factors" that the customers use to narrow down their choices when they're in the mood for something.

This is great information.... if this thread was still about race and CAMMING. Which, it's not. It's just about race now.

Which is why I think when people bring things up about weight, boob size, whatever else it IS relevant considering this thread was supposedly suppose to be about race as it factors into CAMMING.

But yah. Now it has nothing at all to do with camming.

Still Katy, great points. :)

GlamourRouge
09-29-2014, 12:44 PM
Okay so a 7 minute video.... and all I can still say is "damned if you do, damned if you don't".....

Doesn't tell me anything at all about a solution.

I agree, and I really had to post because that video was irrelevant IMO.

I mean, whenever I see someone making racist remarks (which is actually very very rare), its one of two thing:
1.) The person is clearly mentally ill and has schizophrenia or tourettes. Arguing with this person and telling them how I feel is like arguing with a wall.
2.) The person is clearly really old, thus meaning they grew up at the end of the segregation era and their viewpoints are ingrained in their brain. Why would I argue with this person? It will get me nowhere, and they aren't going to change their beliefs because some random girl they just met off the street told them they shouldn't think that way.

That being said, what does arguing with someone else's viewpoint even do? Its pointless. All that person hears is "my viewpoint is superior!!!" and they'll tune out everything else. They've already made up their mind, and having a little chat with them won't change things.

For that reason alone, I usually look at a racist person, laugh at their stupidity, and walk away. I mean, what can I do? Arguing with an idiot and trying to get them to change their viewpoint does nothing. Its not like they've never heard the opposing arguments before-- they have. They have a TV.

I think we have all experienced that kind of persuasion before with people of a certain religion trying to convert us when we have said a million times we don't believe the things they believe. You're best agreeing to disagree in your head, and saving your breath.



And can I be completely honest? Touching on the race video above, I have a great story for why someone who is white may not want to "impose" themselves into a debate on a topic they are not apart of. Okay so I grew up in a housing project. My next door neighbor was black. One time she (the next door neighbor) was fighting with her "guests" really loudly outside and my mom came out and tried to get them to calm down. Well guess what happened? I physically witnessed this and had a friend over.

The "guests" of my next door neighbor (who were also black) started screaming "WHO THE FUCK THIS WHITE GIRL THINK SHE IS????" and my mom was like "I'm just trying to get you guys to quiet down a little" and then that same woman said "GET AWAY FROM ME WHITE BITCH, YOU JUST JEALOUS BECAUSE YOU AINT GOT NO N*GGAS IN YOUR HOUSE!" She was literally screaming and tried to come at my mom. My mom mentioned nothing about race, but that was thrown in her face.

Obviously the neighbor did not say anything, and in fact sided with my mom because she knew my mom well. But, this is exactly what happens a lot of the time when white people do try to get involved with racial issues that are not their immediate own. And how its not always white people who make things about race. This is probably why a lot of white people are hesitant about getting into racial disputes or issues when they themselves are not black.

PhatGirlDynomite!!!
09-29-2014, 12:47 PM
Sarah threads never stay on topic. But they should remain respectful and I hope this one keeps it up. Katy I don't doubt your info. But without knowing exact numbers then it's kinda difficult to know how it race relates to camming. Like a proper study. And I guess only the websites would have this statistic. As for my affiliate sites and phone sex sites I too recognize that one single customer will shop around. Many will go on benders and buy memberships for solo girl sites of different races. One guy in weekend will get Asian,Ebony and Co-ed(white)but on Monday morning he almost always will cancel a few of them. Usually it's the Asian girl sites stay on renewal. I have phone sex sites where I pretend to be anywhere from a white coed to a Spanish Transsexual. My experience has been that the same man who will buy a call with a Latina, A White Woman and The transsexual, will not buy a call with an ebony. Most men who call my Ebony listings don't venture out to other groups. At least not within my network. I work in a team of people and we have 150 different websites that we pool our money on to make more money. I know this because I have access to the backend and can see their purchases. What color these men are I am not 100% certain. I would be assuming if I said. But it does give me a better understanding of demographics and who is spending and on what. I have their addresses and can make comparisons to my research.

LaPetiteVierge
09-29-2014, 12:50 PM
I see why these threads get locked.
Give me a minute to make a masterpost response.

TheBrownFox
09-29-2014, 12:54 PM
Kinda of a funny story. My sister is married to a white man who calls her "Monkey Boo" as a term of endearment. WTF?

Here's another weird one...my granddad (a Black man) calls my mom 'Coon' as a term of endearment, and he's been calling her that for years. WTF??? He is definitely a weird one...

PhatGirlDynomite!!!
09-29-2014, 01:01 PM
Are you saying you think this monstrosity happens a lot when white people have conflicts with black people? Or not just conflicts but opposing opinions? I don't doubt this happened to your Mother but that's a very extreme situation. And I don't think anyone here has said anything that compares to that and really no one should let something that hateful from having a this conversation. Im really just asking if that's what you meant. And I wonder how many people are thinking this? Cuz I would hate to think this entire time that my testimonials are bringing up nasty memories from childhood caused by stupid people.




The "guests" of my next door neighbor (who were also black) started screaming "WHO THE FUCK THIS WHITE GIRL THINK SHE IS????" and my mom was like "I'm just trying to get you guys to quiet down a little" and then that same woman said "GET AWAY FROM ME WHITE BITCH, YOU JUST JEALOUS BECAUSE YOU AINT GOT NO N*GGAS IN YOUR HOUSE!" She was literally screaming and tried to come at my mom. My mom mentioned nothing about race, but that was thrown in her face.

Obviously the neighbor did not say anything, and in fact sided with my mom because she knew my mom well. But, this is exactly what happens a lot of the time when white people do try to get involved with racial issues that are not their immediate own. And how its not always white people who make things about race. This is probably why a lot of white people are hesitant about getting into racial disputes or issues when they themselves are not black.

GlamourRouge
09-29-2014, 01:14 PM
Are you saying you think this monstrosity happens a lot when white people have conflicts with black people?

In my own experience, not all the time, but its certainly not rare. Situations like that happened probably ~20 times just to me, or that I personally witnessed while living there spanning 18 years. So it was definitely not an isolated incident.

While I never had an issue with any of the people that lived there EVER, things/situations/arguments like that happened to me ALL THE TIME when those people had guests over. And suddenly when the person who had the guest over would say "she lives here!!!" they'd usually be like "oh sorry I thought you were just some dumb white bitch getting in my business" Like as if, because I lived in that housing project, I was suddenly ~*vouched*~ for. But if I didn't live there, they would have had a problem with me? I always found that to be odd. That has happened to me many, many times.

I should clarify, these instances weren't traumatic for me, just bizarre. But I'm happy they happened because it shows me this:

That's also why I believe some people confuse skin tone for culture, and the two are not mutually exclusive at all. And the people who lived in my neighborhood or who knew my neighborhood, knew that. As for my examples, I guess its like I felt like I was half black that doesn't look half black or something (I'm not black at all), and when someone saying "she's actually black though!" made them shut up. Instead of me being black (which I'm not), it was "she lives here!" And suddenly I was ~*vouched for*~ and everything calmed down. Every time. That's the best analogy I can think of.


Or not just conflicts but opposing opinions? I don't doubt this happened to your Mother but that's a very extreme situation. And I don't think anyone here has said anything that compares to that and really no one should let something that hateful from having a this conversation. Im really just asking if that's what you meant. And I wonder how many people are thinking this? Cuz I would hate to think this entire time that my testimonials are bringing up nasty memories from childhood caused by stupid people.

I really don't understand what you're asking/saying?

PhatGirlDynomite!!!
09-29-2014, 01:22 PM
In my own experience, not all the time, but its certainly not rare. Situations like that happened probably ~20 times just to me, or that I personally witnessed while living there spanning 18 years. So it was definitely not an isolated incident.

While I never had an issue with any of the people that lived there EVER, things/situations/arguments like that happened to me ALL THE TIME when those people had guests over. And suddenly when the person who had the guest over would say "she lives here!!!" they'd usually be like "oh sorry I thought you were just some dumb white bitch getting in my business" Like as if, because I lived in that housing project, I was suddenly ~*vouched*~ for. But if I didn't live there, they would have had a problem with me? I always found that to be odd. That has happened to me many, many times.



I really don't understand what you're asking/saying?

No worries you answered it with the first part. I wanted to know if you thought that if people of different races have disagreements that it'll manifest into something ugly and violent. Like the situation you spoke of above. Cuz that's pretty nasty behavior and wonder now how many people believe this when having these sort of conversations? It seems that quite a few people in this thread bring up things that have happened to them in the past and are getting frustrated by the current topic. I could be wrong but it's giving me a better understanding as to why it's upsetting people. If in fact they are expecting the worst.

PhatGirlDynomite!!!
09-29-2014, 01:25 PM
Oh jeezus

GlamourRouge
09-29-2014, 01:28 PM
No worries you answered it with the first part. I wanted to know if you thought that if people of different races have disagreements that it'll manifest into something ugly and violent. Like the situation you spoke of above. Cuz that's pretty nasty behavior and wonder now how many people believe this when having these sort of conversations? It seems that quite a few people in this thread bring up things that have happened to them in the past and are getting frustrated by the current topic. I could be wrong but it's giving me a better understanding as to why it's upsetting people. If in fact they are expecting the worst.

Lol no I don't think that. But I don't think incidences like that are isolated or uncommon though.

I don't "expect the worst" as you call it, but I'm sure many people do after having situations/interactions like that where they are told by said party that they aren't allowed to comment on something that doesn't pertain to them. So later telling them they SHOULD engage in more interactions about topics that don't pertain to them, is kind of a difficult thing to do. Very few people will take that advice lol.

I'm half white for the record.

LaPetiteVierge
09-29-2014, 01:35 PM
You just don't get it do you?

That's perfectly alright, most (white) people don't or do not care.
Knock that off please. You can address a difference in opinion without making racialized remarks. It's going to lead to this thread getting locked.

scarletl
09-29-2014, 01:48 PM
Yup you got it...we don't care! Hence why there are white girls in this thread trying to understand things from a different perspective and trying to understand how it might feel.

Stupid comment to make.

scarletl
09-29-2014, 02:02 PM
Actually there is a question I have. Kayne West he rants on about ALLOT of stuff but he seems to always rant on about how fashion houses won't take him seriously as a fashion designer because his black. And I've always sat and thought well is it really because you're black? Or is it because your simply not producing the right designs or whatever. Would it be a case if a white person was to produce the exact same clothing line would it be accepted because they are white?

I'm trying to ask is it fair for him to blame it on his skin colour rather than his skill? (or potential lack of it)

LaPetiteVierge
09-29-2014, 02:14 PM
Actually there is a question I have. Kayne West he rants on about ALLOT of stuff but he seems to always rant on about how fashion houses won't take him seriously as a fashion designer because his black. And I've always sat and thought well is it really because you're black? Or is it because your simply not producing the right designs or whatever. Would it be a case if a white person was to produce the exact same clothing line would it be accepted because they are right?

I'm trying to ask is it fair for him to blame it on his skin colour rather than his skill? (or potential lack of it)
Yes it's fair for him to speak up about racist experiences he has with fashion houses when trying to pitch his line.
Fashion is subjective like art is (fashion is pretty much an art) as to what the "right" design is.
He dresses very well and I don't at all think, personally, it's due to a lack of skill with coordinating outfits.
The fashion industry is notoriously racist.

PhatGirlDynomite!!!
09-29-2014, 02:15 PM
Sorry but Kanye West is a self absorbed idiot and based on that alone I couldn't even begin to answer your question.



Actually there is a question I have. Kayne West he rants on about ALLOT of stuff but he seems to always rant on about how fashion houses won't take him seriously as a fashion designer because his black. And I've always sat and thought well is it really because you're black? Or is it because your simply not producing the right designs or whatever. Would it be a case if a white person was to produce the exact same clothing line would it be accepted because they are white?

I'm trying to ask is it fair for him to blame it on his skin colour rather than his skill? (or potential lack of it)

LaPetiteVierge
09-29-2014, 02:18 PM
Sorry but Kanye West is a self absorbed idiot and based on that alone I couldn't even begin to answer your question.
LOL. To be honest, I think the death of his mother contributed largely to him developing mental issues.
I think his narcissism is a facade for how deeply insecure he is. But I also think he gets demonized for being hostile towards paparazzi and the media without them noting the fact that the guy gets pretty much harassed by them.

LaPetiteVierge
09-29-2014, 02:23 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCcS9wkZ5Hg
If you (you meaning anybody) have an hour to kill, please watch this.
If you don't feel like watching it, I understand, but this is a great social experiment.

loveshooks
09-29-2014, 03:08 PM
Interestingly, we've noticed that most customers we've tracked ("For Science!") don't seem to have a long-term preference for a particular race or body type...easily spending $100 on a co-ed and then $100 the next week on a BBBW

I've found the same to hold true on my site. Particularly with my own clients (who book other chicas listed when I'm not available) they've been booking a huge range of women. Just this past weekend while I was out partying four of my regs booked Black and BBW chicas- the polar opposites of me physically in every way. It's cool having that bird's eye view-some of these dudes have surprisingly broad tastes as far as physical appearance goes. That doesn't negate the very unique issues faced by racialized women on or off cam though.


Knock that off please. You can address a difference in opinion without making racialized remarks. It's going to lead to this thread getting locked.

not gonna happen. this thread is the most interesting discussion I've been a part of on sw in a long time and I refuse to let it follow the path every other damn thread on this topic has taken. It's time to set a new precedent that we can talk about difficult issues and learn from each other, and anyone who takes this to an offensive place will simply get an infraction and/or their offensive posts removed. There is no reason for rudeness or incivility, passion need not devolve into something ugly. Just wanna state that publicly for everyone.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCcS9wkZ5Hg
If you (you meaning anybody) have an hour to kill, please watch this.
If you don't feel like watching it, I understand, but this is a great social experiment.

Blue Eyed is a wicked doc, what's facinating is to watch how in the space of an afternoon she transforms a pretty pompous and successful white business man into every worst caricature/stereotype of a young Black male, all by the way she treats him. Racialization in the school system was a pretty large part of my undergrad and volunteer work, George Dei and Carl James have done some killer work on these issues for those who may be interested but unfamiliar with 'em.

loveshooks
09-29-2014, 03:49 PM
is there anything that a white women can do in order to help against that inequality? I mean other than taking the statement of being colourblind out of my vocabulary out of a deep respect for others struggles ? I only ask because I do want to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. :/


That's what I'd like to know, too

I'm hardly an expert but I would suggest to start out by listening, reading, really trying to understand how systems of power and privilege effect people differently based on social positioning. As people with light skin we need to examine our own privilege and claim it in order to fight against it...dunno if that makes sense, call it the zen of anti-racism or something. In a seemingly counter-intuitive way anti-racism is really more about peeps with light skin-privilege than anyone else, we're the beneficiaries of unearned privilege based on skin color, it's our responsibility to fight to cast that off. When you read, see, hear bullshit that negates people's experiences or contributes to their oppression as those oppressed define it speak up, call bullshit, fight it and try to do something about it.

It all starts in listening though. Without that the rest is futile.

My two cents, worth probably less than that.

justanothercamgirl
09-29-2014, 05:09 PM
I'm hardly an expert but I would suggest to start out by listening, reading, really trying to understand how systems of power and privilege effect people differently based on social positioning. As people with light skin we need to examine our own privilege and claim it in order to fight against it...dunno if that makes sense, call it the zen of anti-racism or something. In a seemingly counter-intuitive way anti-racism is really more about peeps with light skin-privilege than anyone else, we're the beneficiaries of unearned privilege based on skin color, it's our responsibility to fight to cast that off. When you read, see, hear bullshit that negates people's experiences or contributes to their oppression as those oppressed define it speak up, call bullshit, fight it and try to do something about it.

It all starts in listening though. Without that the rest is futile.

My two cents, worth probably less than that.

Your two cents is worth the world to me. It is obvious to me that you have a much better grasp on this issue then I do so that is why I ask for your guidance on it. I trust your opinion.

TheBrownFox
09-29-2014, 05:22 PM
Sorry but Kanye West is a self absorbed idiot and based on that alone I couldn't even begin to answer your question.
This. I think Kanye West is an asshole, and every time I hear about him in the news it's something negative. The guy just seems like a douche. But I can't really answer the question about him as a fashion designer.

Jay12
09-29-2014, 06:00 PM
Actually there is a question I have. Kayne West he rants on about ALLOT of stuff but he seems to always rant on about how fashion houses won't take him seriously as a fashion designer because his black. And I've always sat and thought well is it really because you're black? Or is it because your simply not producing the right designs or whatever. Would it be a case if a white person was to produce the exact same clothing line would it be accepted because they are white?

I'm trying to ask is it fair for him to blame it on his skin colour rather than his skill? (or potential lack of it)

Sean John (better known as Diddy) and Nelly are also black, so the ethnicity is not the problem.


I had a pair of those "Apple Bottom" jeans several years ago and were my favorite pair...until they got lost when I was moving from Great Lakes to NAS Pensacola in late 2009. A bit offtopic, but I'm trying to make a point about being taken serious as a designer.

LaPetiteVierge
09-29-2014, 06:19 PM
Sean John (better known as Diddy) and Nelly are also black, so the ethnicity is not the problem.


I had a pair of those "Apple Bottom" jeans several years ago and were my favorite pair...until they got lost when I was moving from Great Lakes to NAS Pensacola in late 2009. A bit offtopic, but I'm trying to make a point about being taken serious as a designer.
Kanye isn't wanting to make a brand like Apple Bottom or Sean John or Rocawear.
He wants to make a brand like Givenchy or Fendi or Christian Dior.
He's seeking to make a luxury brand. Not simply a brand.

Edit: Also, there are no black-owned luxury brands. You could argue that Hood By Air is one, but I think mentioning that is met with "Hood By What?"

GlamourRouge
09-29-2014, 06:46 PM
Kanye isn't wanting to make a brand like Apple Bottom or Sean John or Rocawear.
He wants to make a brand like Givenchy or Fendi or Christian Dior.
He's seeking to make a luxury brand. Not simply a brand.

Edit: Also, there are no black-owned luxury brands. You could argue that Hood By Air is one, but I think mentioning that is met with "Hood By What?"

Kanye knows what he's doing. Has no one realized that his sister-in-law is up-and-coming model Kendall (Jenner) who will either become a Victoria's Secret angel or the next Kate Moss? The only model who, at 18, has like 10 million twitter/instagram followers due to her Kardashian-Jenner brand? Its only a matter of time until Kendall reaches #1 and then she exclusively walks for Kanye's brand. She will replace Kim Kardashian, or at least Kylie will. And if no one remembers, Kim Kardashian was frolicking around with important people in the public eye for years before she actually became a household name. That shit takes time.

I don't think its on purpose that there aren't many black-owned luxury brands. Most of those designers have been around for 80 - 100 years, back when slavery was still in existence. It takes a very long time to build yourself up as a "luxury" brand. It doesn't just happen over night.

LaPetiteVierge
09-29-2014, 06:58 PM
Kanye knows what he's doing. Has no one realized that his sister-in-law is up-and-coming model Kendall (Jenner) who will either become a Victoria's Secret angel or the next Kate Moss? The only model who, at 18, has like 10 million twitter/instagram followers due to her Kardashian-Jenner brand? Its only a matter of time until Kendall reaches #1 and then she exclusively walks for Kanye's brand. She will replace Kim Kardashian, or at least Kylie will. And if no one remembers, Kim Kardashian was frolicking around with important people in the public eye for years before she actually became a household name. That shit takes time.

I don't think its on purpose that there aren't many black-owned luxury brands. Most of those designers have been around for 80 - 100 years, back when slavery was still in existence. It takes a very long time to build yourself up as a "luxury" brand. It doesn't just happen over night.
Lol. Kanye has wanted a luxury brand since before his marriage to Kim Kardashian.
He hasn't been trying to do this since last night. It's been a work in progress for a while now.
Either way, you're entitled to believe that his desire to maintain a luxury brand is part of some publicity stunt/marketing scheme because of his siblings (who are only famous because of his wife). No one's here to argue about it.

JaneBurgess
09-29-2014, 07:17 PM
Agreed. He has talent but his shitty ego makes you want to hate him.




This. I think Kanye West is an asshole, and every time I hear about him in the news it's something negative. The guy just seems like a douche. But I can't really answer the question about him as a fashion designer.

JaneBurgess
09-29-2014, 07:21 PM
She is a model because of her family. She is pretty but VS will not touch her with a ten foot pole. She isn't their look at all and her family would be a turn off to them. She will never be a Kate Moss. Kate Moss is only 5'6 and broke the mold in more ways than one.



Kanye knows what he's doing. Has no one realized that his sister-in-law is up-and-coming model Kendall (Jenner) who will either become a Victoria's Secret angel or the next Kate Moss? The only model who, at 18, has like 10 million twitter/instagram followers due to her Kardashian-Jenner brand? Its only a matter of time until Kendall reaches #1 and then she exclusively walks for Kanye's brand. She will replace Kim Kardashian, or at least Kylie will. And if no one remembers, Kim Kardashian was frolicking around with important people in the public eye for years before she actually became a household name. That shit takes time.

I don't think its on purpose that there aren't many black-owned luxury brands. Most of those designers have been around for 80 - 100 years, back when slavery was still in existence. It takes a very long time to build yourself up as a "luxury" brand. It doesn't just happen over night.

LaPetiteVierge
09-29-2014, 07:41 PM
Did anybody take the time out to watch that doc on this page? Any thoughts?

GlamourRouge
09-29-2014, 10:05 PM
I don't trust the media so I don't know too much about the 'Kanye in the news' but if anyone actually listens to him and his message he is all about self-empowerment and breaking down classism. People always say he has such a huge ego but I mean the dude is extremely creative and extremely accomplished and I don't know why it makes him a bad person to acknowledge it/speak about it.

I'm sure people are gonna flip out about and focus on him calling himself a god in there but I think that's them misinterpreting it and taking it too literally. A major religious/spiritual concept is oneness and that god is in all of us and I think that's what he's talking about. If a spiritual person says 'we are all god' it's okay but if Kanye says it everyone freaks out.

I think Kanye is largely warped by the media to be a negative figure. As are many celebs. Faux stories and press sell. Not only in celebrity culture, but also in politics, and in everything else.

What the media tells us that are "problems" may be exaggerated or may not even be issues at all... but rather, what they WANT to be issues in order to sell controversial stories, or to make us hate each other or certain public figures promoting harmony. The media is a business after all. I personally don't subscribe to what the media or what textbooks or "studies" (80% of the time they are biased and warped) tell me is "true" because it just isn't reality. Its warped.

TheBrownFox
09-30-2014, 06:09 AM
I don't trust the media so I don't know too much about the 'Kanye in the news' but if anyone actually listens to him and his message he is all about self-empowerment and breaking down classism. People always say he has such a huge ego but I mean the dude is extremely creative and extremely accomplished and I don't know why it makes him a bad person to acknowledge it/speak about it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rim8t2WcREQ

I'm sure people are gonna flip out about and focus on him calling himself a god in there but I think that's them misinterpreting it and taking it too literally. A major religious/spiritual concept is oneness and that god is in all of us and I think that's what he's talking about. If a spiritual person says 'we are all god' it's okay but if Kanye says it everyone freaks out.
I'm not sure if everything you posted is directed at me (since you quoted me), but I have no interest in Kanye West's music, fashion designs, etc. He can talk about Jesus/God all he wants. I don't care. From what I've seen of him, I'm just not fond of him as a rapper or person. *shrugs shoulders* I have no interest in watching any videos of him rambling, and that is no offense towards you, Genoveve. :)

JaneBurgess
10-01-2014, 08:00 PM
Seanbbthrobbin: Well it must be you white bitches because I'll just say anything. Other bitches bitches dance differ
Seanbbthrobbin: with smoke in the air

Yeah this dude is angry and hates white bitches I guess. He said another performer pissed him off

Seanbbthrobbin: So if I said mind if I burn one you would feel I came to relax and see you right. Well another model
Seanbbthrobbin: called me a 16 year old punk
Seanbbthrobbin: BB im not a punk and Im 32

LaPetiteVierge
10-02-2014, 09:04 AM
Seanbbthrobbin: Well it must be you white bitches because I'll just say anything. Other bitches bitches dance differ
Seanbbthrobbin: with smoke in the air

Yeah this dude is angry and hates white bitches I guess. He said another performer pissed him off

Seanbbthrobbin: So if I said mind if I burn one you would feel I came to relax and see you right. Well another model
Seanbbthrobbin: called me a 16 year old punk
Seanbbthrobbin: BB im not a punk and Im 32
He's stupid. It's interesting that you posted this here instead of the "STUPID annoying shit I've heard on cam...." thread lol.

JaneBurgess
10-02-2014, 02:55 PM
I posted it here as a point. People say racist shit to everyone on cam sites,we all get it. It's not us, these people are dipshits.



He's stupid. It's interesting that you posted this here instead of the "STUPID annoying shit I've heard on cam...." thread lol.

LaPetiteVierge
10-02-2014, 03:54 PM
I posted it here as a point. People say racist shit to everyone on cam sites,we all get it. It's not us, these people are dipshits.
I see. I have something to say about that, but I'm not sure how to word it. But yes, some people are complete dipshits.

scarletl
10-02-2014, 04:00 PM
You'd be surprised how the most insecure people know exactly what they're saying and say it purely to get some attention. Some people thrive off bad attention.
Best thing to do with any insult is to not give them a reaction and block them. Maybe then they will learn.

Actually I was reading the paper today (I'm not sure if this was published worldwide or not) but there was claims that the cartoon 'Tom and Jerry' is racist.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/02/tom-and-jerry-racism-diversity-modern-storytelling

LaPetiteVierge
10-02-2014, 04:16 PM
You'd be surprised how the most insecure people know exactly what they're saying and say it purely to get some attention. Some people thrive off bad attention.
Best thing to do with any insult is to not give them a reaction and block them. Maybe then they will learn.

Actually I was reading the paper today (I'm not sure if this was published worldwide or not) but there was claims that the cartoon 'Tom and Jerry' is racist.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/02/tom-and-jerry-racism-diversity-modern-storytelling
It does have racist things in it.
You're from the UK and don't seem very in the know about racism in the US, so I don't expect you to be aware of what mammies are and what blackface is, but those two elements are rampant in Tom And Jerry.
There are several instances of racism in cartoons from that time period. That was during the span of time in which segregation was in America as well as when minstrel shows were still happening.
It's not exactly news and it's not claims more than it is evidenced fact.
Here's the mammy from Tom and Jerry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W8WmsrVRtE
Here's a compilation of old racist cartoons from the 40s/50s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH4ivOyO0PQ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammy_archetype

GlamourRouge
10-02-2014, 04:24 PM
^^^ Tom & Jerry came out in 1940 when the tailend of racial segregation was common because there was still racial segregation until 1964. Looney Tunes came out in 1930. They are a reflection of the time period it was made, likely not to be intentionally racist. Those two shows are like caricature comedy, which is never tasteful TBH lol, but that was also a standard form of comedy back then as well. Obviously that kind of thing wouldn't be seen in cartoons that come out now because its no longer a reflection of our culture and current societal norms.

LaPetiteVierge
10-02-2014, 04:42 PM
^^^ Tom & Jerry came out in 1940 when the tailend of racial segregation was common because there was still racial segregation until 1964. Looney Tunes came out in 1930. They are a reflection of the time period it was made, likely not to be intentionally racist. Those two shows are like caricature comedy, which is never tasteful TBH lol, but that was also a standard form of comedy back then as well. Obviously that kind of thing wouldn't be seen in cartoons that come out now because its no longer a reflection of our culture and current societal norms.
Blackface is inherently racist. I don't know how at all you can say it was "a reflection of the time period" and "not... intentionally racist" when talking about blackface, mammies, and general attitudes about black people in the 30s, 40s, and 50s. Are you like trying to excuse it being racist with "that's just how it was"? I'm not getting what you're going for with this.

scarletl
10-02-2014, 06:03 PM
I watched both them clips. More focused on the Tom & Jerry one, I don't understand or see what could be racist about it?

Let's shorten it, a racist person is someone who believes they are more superior than another race. I struggle to see how this meaning would apply to T&J.

ALSO in the same day the T&J thing was highlighted this Banksy artwork was banned
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/02/bansky-clacton-on-sea-racism-tendring-district-council-destroyed-immigration

LaPetiteVierge
10-02-2014, 06:29 PM
I watched both them clips. More focused on the Tom & Jerry one, I don't understand or see what could be racist about it?

Let's shorten it, a racist person is someone who believes they are more superior than another race. I struggle to see how this meaning would apply to T&J.

ALSO in the same day the T&J thing was highlighted this Banksy artwork was banned
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/02/bansky-clacton-on-sea-racism-tendring-district-council-destroyed-immigration
You're using a dictionary definition to describe something that runs deeper than a belief system.
It's racist in the same way that a cartoon of an Asian person with slanty eyes and a conical hat, yelling "ching chong ching chong" is racist.
It's racist in the same way that a cartoon of a Native or Indigenous person in a war bonnet, wielding a tomahawk in one hand and a bottle of alcohol in the other is racist.
It's racist in the same way that saying all women need to be in the kitchen is sexist.
It's racist in the same way that saying all women need to know how to cook, clean, and suck dick is sexist.
Mind you, the dictionary definition of sexist is much the same as racist. Just swap race with sex.
I'm using these examples and analogies so you can understand that showing a stereotype of a group of people to allude to their race, ethnicity, and nationality is inherently racist.
If you don't understand the broader use of these terminologies, maybe that contributes to your not understanding what's blatantly racist and what's not.
I linked you to blackface, mammy, and minstrel show Wiki articles in the hopes that you'd get what the historical significance of these things were and to give contextual perspective.
But I don't think there's much else to say about it if, even with that, you still don't see how depicting black people as such is racist.

Blovely
10-02-2014, 06:30 PM
It does have racist things in it.
You're from the UK and don't seem very in the know about racism in the US, so I don't expect you to be aware of what mammies are and what blackface is, but those two elements are rampant in Tom And Jerry.
There are several instances of racism in cartoons from that time period. That was during the span of time in which segregation was in America as well as when minstrel shows were still happening.
It's not exactly news and it's not claims more than it is evidenced fact.


Wow. I've watched T&J but don't ever remember seeing that. I can't even begin to dissect the racist element/stereotypes in that clip and it was only 2 mins. You know what's even crazier is mammy and blackface is still happening till this day. I didn't realize it at first but just a few Aunt Jemima pancakes and syrup, the movie The Help, and many of the role black women play. I still hear about some white people doing blackface like the shit is funny.


^^^ Tom & Jerry came out in 1940 when the tailend of racial segregation was common because there was still racial segregation until 1964. Looney Tunes came out in 1930. They are a reflection of the time period it was made, likely not to be intentionally racist. Those two shows are like caricature comedy, which is never tasteful TBH lol, but that was also a standard form of comedy back then as well. Obviously that kind of thing wouldn't be seen in cartoons that come out now because its no longer a reflection of our culture and current societal norms.
IMO it was intentionally racist. Mammy, Blackface, and other caricatures are still present to this day people/industries just aren't as blatant with it.

LaPetiteVierge
10-02-2014, 06:35 PM
Wow. I've watched T&J but don't ever remember seeing that. I can't even begin to dissect the racist element/stereotypes in that clip and it was only 2 mins. You know what's even crazier is mammy and blackface is still happening till this day. I didn't realize it at first but just a few Aunt Jemima pancakes and syrup, the movie The Help, and many of the role black women play. I still hear about some white people doing blackface like the shit is funny.
Right? I remember as a kid seeing cartoons suddenly have a completely black face with braids and hair ties in their hair and big red lips and just being like "??? What does that mean?" and not getting it. Luckily, in high school, I had a teacher passionate about teaching her students about how harmful minstrelsy and mammies were. It's insane to see people do that same stuff today. Absolutely insane. And I hate when it's excused away as "entertainment" or "a joke". Like when Justin Bieber sang "there'll be one less lonely nigger if I killed you". Sooooo many people on my Facebook news feed were saying "he was just a kid! It was just a joke!"

Needless to say, I've deactivated my Facebook since then.

TheBrownFox
10-02-2014, 08:20 PM
Like when Justin Bieber sang "there'll be one less lonely nigger if I killed you". Sooooo many people on my Facebook news feed were saying "he was just a kid! It was just a joke!"
WTF?! Are you serious?! What a fucking douche! I bet he wouldn't say something like that to a Black man's face...