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justanothercamgirl
10-06-2014, 10:14 AM
I feel the same way. Some of you guys said that you were trying to understand but it honestly really doesn't seem like you are. Now at this point I feel like this conversation has become pointless.
I have no doubt that all people in this thread who are sticking it out in this thread are truly and honestly are trying to understand each other.
We have to remember that there are hurt feelings on either side of the issue and cognitive dissonance* is a very real thing in psychology. It makes debates like this very emotionally and physically taxing for people to participate in.
So let's take a moment to give EVERYONE who is still in this thread a moment of kudos no matter what your beliefs is. This thread has still remained unlocked at this point which means we are doing a damn good job at respecting each other's opinions in what is a very heated debate and that is not an easy task.
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
TheBrownFox
10-06-2014, 11:45 AM
Ah, but this is where the white privilege thing gets interesting. Not all crime is created equal.
Example: How many times have you heard of a business scandal that involves large amounts of money being stolen from other people and those people never see a single day in prison?
Yet, minorities usually are arrested and put in prison for drug-related crimes (which they generally turn to after being denied the jobs they need to feed their families) and once you have been arrested for a crime then life gets a lot harder when it comes to getting a job.
To lighten the mood, let me put it in musical form.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykvc20YpXAQ
What JAC said. Money talks!
Also, in response to the "Two people of different races committing the same crime get the same amount of time" comment...that's how it's supposed to be, but that's not how it always ends up.
kortneykay
10-06-2014, 12:38 PM
So that's why I find the "white" privilege thing to be very... inaccurate. Its not about white vs black lol. Its ethnicity. Its physical attributes. Its culture. Its religion. Its class. Its all of that. And none of that is white-exclusive or white-inclusive. Its all over the place.
I call a spade a spade. It's not inaccurate, it's real and it's happening. You're meaning to tell me that here in the US of A that white privilege doesn't exist? Please look at the history of this nation and other nations poisoned by white invasion. The OP is African American so she is sharing her own story. You are right, it isn't about white vs. black (that's another VERY REAL issue) it's about RACISM period and the brainwashing of white privilige. So yes, you are correct. It's about Whites vs. every one else who isn't white. Better? The OP is trying to express her own experiences and for anyone to try and dumb it down is wrong.
USA = 1600 and 1700s- Bacon's Rebellion (black and whites servants and free workers and farmers rose up against wealthy English planters, poor whites were then given the upper hand having been born from English ancestors (aka born white) and were given the upper hand to make sure that blacks didn't rise up again. This separated Whites vs. Blacks and resulted in Slave Code.
Scalping of Native Americans for profit. (40 pounds for men and 20 pounds for children under the age of 12)
The Naturalization Act (Free WHITE persons of good character) (1790s)
The Indian Removal Act (1830) The Trail of Tears... my Great Aunt can trace our family back to 1800s and my relatives on were amongst those natives
Mexican-Ameican War (caste/class system)
Fugitive Slave Act (permission to claim ex-slaves and pick up random blacks they believe had run away even if he was a FREE man)
The Morril Act
100 Million Acres of land stolen from the Natives and given to railroad companies, for free :)
The "Education" of Native Americans
Chinese Exclusion Act
Bureau of the Census
The White Man's Decloration of Independence (1898)
New in VA Law: Rape Punishable By Death (1908) (between 1908 and 1972 only blacks were executed under this statue even though 45% of the rapes were white individuals.)
Oriental Exclusion Act
Native American Citizenship Act (1924) Bwhahha what? Oh, I guess they weren't there first.
Johnson-Reed Act (1924) excluded Asians from entering, thanks President Coolidge!
National Housing Act of 1934 The FHA withheld mortgaging capitol from the ghettos (redlining areas of "ghettos" so real estate developers would build elsewhere) banks wouldn't give loans to blacks and they weren't allowed in white neighborhoods, and not offered mortgages.
National Labor Relations Act (blacks not included, had to make their own unions)
Teddy Roosevelt's Executive Order (white vs. yellow)
1945 Nuclear Bombs on Japan (The US wanted post-war Japan)
1947 GI Bill (over 70,000 African American Vets were denied MOST of the benefits of this bill while whites were granted ALL of the benefits)
1947 Jackie Robinson is the first black base ball player to sign in the big leagues but dealt with racism and segregation
Evacuation Claims Act
Brown vs. Board of Education
Assassination of Malcolm X
1966 Over HALF of the US were still against black-white marriage
Assassination of Martin Luther King
Jackson State College Shootings
Sentencing of Crack vs. Cocaine laws (same drug, different rulings based on race) (1994)
California Proposition 209 (1996)
1997 President Clinton "hints" at public apology for slavery but doesn't pay anything in compensation
1977-1998 Death Penalty
1992 LA Riots (anyone remember Rodney King?)
2000s Mortgages discrimination among blacks
2001-2002 White Collar Crime is finally brought to the public (Anyone remember Enron?)
2001 Human Genome Project
2005 Hurricane Katrina
2009 Americans FIRST black President is sworn into office
2013 Trayvon Martin
Having a non-traditional white name also stops a lot of people with resumes from getting a chance to interview. I just saw a yahoo video on a guy who changed his name from Jose to Joe an immediately got calls for interviews. Joe would be considered a "white" name though it's hebrew. http://www.buzzfeed.com/adriancarrasquillo/meet-jose-zamora-the-guy-who-changed-his-name-to-joe-to-get#1hrjipq it's not a coincidence, it's just RACISM.
I mean, I've left out a LOT of things but I can go on and on. It is VERY much "white" privilege but you can choose to ignore it if you'd like. :) Some of us can't ignore it because it is our reality. When things are run a certain way in a nation, when behaviors are passed down from generation to generation things just don't disappear, they're usually manifested differently or said/done behind closed doors. It's going to take this nation a lot of time to cleanse the racial divide between white vs. every one else. To ignore it and say it doesn't exist when history has proven it has and still does, is really messed up and shame on you. All of those things you've listed have been overruled by blonde hair, blue eyes, and white skin. Or, in other nations the caste systems always has something to do with how much whiter/light someone is than the other. India, the Holocaust, and the Trujillo in Haiti vs. Dominican Republic come to mind.
Issabelle
10-06-2014, 01:35 PM
You know, if you back track to the first pages of this thread, you'll find a comment I left about not seeing where this thread was going and not quite seeing what the point/question is. JAC mentioned Cognitive Dissonance theory and I feel that's a very fitting explanation for what I'm feeling right now.
I was a science major in college and have an extensive background in psychology as well, so I'm one of those people who very much believes in what I can see and test and provide evidence for. I just don't like things I can't explain. I'm a young, white, female of European decent who is considered 'classically beautiful' by most people. I don't consider myself a racist, though this thread has definitely made me re-examine things that I previously accepted and see them as the stereotypes they are, be that in TV or in my firm belief that life is solely about working hard and letting all else fall to the wayside. I won't pretend I'm not still having trouble with it, but I'm trying here. So, with that preamble, let me say:
I don't get it. I don't think I can get it. I don't want to believe in white privilege or continuing racial inequality, but I can look around, see it for what is now, and then still desperately want to explain it away as something else. It doesn't mesh with what I was raised to believe and yet I'm seeing things I was raised to believe as inherently 'off.' I don't even know how to explain it, but it's like my deep desire to not discriminate has made me more aware of social ethnicities and differences and somehow calls them out to me further. I don't want to see people as anything other than people, and yet I'm so driven to not treat them differently that I somehow do only on the basis that I want to be 'fair.' Like I said, it's bizarre and I can't explain it. I don't understand race. I don't understand racism. I don't know that I truly can, because I'm never going to experience it the same way someone born into a different set of ethnic circumstances can. But god help me, I want to and this thread has been wonderful for showing me how much of a gap I truly have in understanding this particular issue.
So thank you ladies. <3
kortneykay
10-06-2014, 01:45 PM
http://youtu.be/u9ndyej7YUU
I've been a fan of Tim Wise for a while. Please look into his videos and books if you still "can't see" white privilege.
justanothercamgirl
10-06-2014, 02:25 PM
The one thing that this thread has taught me is that the statement 'white privilege' is made up as two emotionally loaded words that makes it very easy to misunderstand the concept.
My personal opinion is that what happens is that we get lost in those two emotionally loaded words since the words themselves are not cut and dry. What is white? What is privilege? What is race? What is culture? I can't speak for anyone else but it took me a long time to wrap my mind around this issue because I got lost within defining the statement before I could understand what was meant by the words.
The English language sucks for that. I am bisexual and if I say I have a boyfriend that doesn't mean that I have a boy who is a friend it means that we are pair-bonded. If I say I have a girlfriend, those words actually refer to friendship so if I want to refer to my pair-bond with a women I have to use partner or other words that just confuse the hell out of everyone if they don't have the context of me being bisexual.
The reason I point this all out is to ask the women who are trying to explain white privilege to others to please try to stay kind even in your frustration and even when what you say initially falls on deaf ears.
I was deeply hurt when I read the post about how 'it wasn't all about white women for a change' and read all the people who had thanked the post. While I completely understand where that frustration came from trying to beat down the other side in a debate with righteousness is never a successful tactic.
It was the kindness of another camgirl who pulled me back into the debate on this thread. Without her kindness I would of never been able to hear you and would of missed out on a chance to learn about something that I should have been educated about a long time ago. <3
LaPetiteVierge
10-06-2014, 02:51 PM
I was deeply hurt when I read the post about how 'it wasn't all about white women for a change' and read all the people who had thanked the post. While I completely understand where that frustration came from trying to beat down the other side in a debate with righteousness is never a successful tactic.
I'll speak for myself in saying that I 100% agreed with the statement and sentiments of "Sorry, ladies, for once it's not all about you" because 1. this thread got hijacked with white people and white passing people stating "who cares"/"does this matter"/"this is pointless" when faced with real life experiences of women of color and 2. a lot of people were "offended" by the idea that white people could make money or benefit more greatly than non-white people as though the reality of their privilege was spoken of as an attack on them rather than a harsh truth for non-white people.
The people who took the most offense to the idea of there being racism in camming or reality were people who do not experience the same things within camming or outside of it. They felt personally affected by a traumatic experience meant for other people. In the United States, a lot of shit gravitates towards and caters to white people. There's very little representation for women of color in nearly every aspect of life (at least in America) outside of being portrayed as a stereotype. So, to have a safe space on here dedicated to having that representation for women of color to share these experiences within and outside of this business, express these grievances, and discuss things rationally and reasonably only to have people who can't even really relate say things like "I don't believe in x/that happened x amount of years ago so it shouldn't matter anymore/stop believing in x or racism will still live on" or asking for help and clarity and then reneging on that for the sake of argument is beyond frustrating. It's insulting.
I'm all for disagreeing respectfully and declining to continue a conversation if one can't "get" an opposing perspective.
I'm all for giving people who don't understand something information, clarity, and perspective for something in order to gain that understanding.
I'm not here for people, when faced with evidence, flat out denying whatever is being evidenced or attempting to nullify experiences. I don't care if whoever majored in Racism with two minors in Decolonialization and World Peace.
Not saying you've done that by the way. Everything I'm saying is directed at whoever knows for a fact that they've come in here and done that.
loveshooks
10-06-2014, 03:01 PM
I'm really happy that this thread happened. Sure we're all never going to reach consensus on how privilege and oppression affect people's lives based on arbitrary characteristics such a social race, but I still think something major has been accomplished.
I dunno if I'm the only one thinking this but there's been a trend I've noticed in cc for a while now, one where chicas can talk about, complain about, refer to anything as long as those convos refer to things the majority can relate to. By majority I mean light-skinned and Western-based peeps. In the past when racialized chicas have tried to bring their own experiences into threads or topics they've been shot down, challenged and mocked. I know women from nations outside the West face the same phenomena of targeting and silencing here and it saddens me. That sort of hegemony of permitted perspective serves only to create the sort of community I know many of us feel uncomfortable being a part of. Well, I do anyways. Frequently if I'm gonna be totally honest. Personally that was why I did a 'fuck yeah' when I read Marley's post.
If this thread and the discussion within have helped created an opening here in cc for chicas of all backgrounds and experiences to speak and be heard then it's a huge step. Based on cc's history it's all too typical for threads and topics concerning race to devolve quickly into hostility and yes, overt racism. Those threads get cleaned up, sometimes they get cleaned up and locked but it keeps happening, over and over again. While that says a lot about my critique above about a pattern of silencing on this forum, it also says a lot about everyone here to strove to stay respectful here as they shared often very disparate points of view.
Not everyone needs to understand each other but this needs to be a place where peeps can speak without being attacked for sharing an experience or reality that differs from the reality of the majority. Thanks to everyone of all positions on this topic who contributed to this goal. I think we're a stronger, better community for it.
GlamourRouge
10-06-2014, 03:19 PM
I call a spade a spade. It's not inaccurate, it's real and it's happening. You're meaning to tell me that here in the US of A that white privilege doesn't exist? Please look at the history of this nation and other nations poisoned by white invasion. The OP is African American so she is sharing her own story. You are right, it isn't about white vs. black (that's another VERY REAL issue) it's about RACISM period and the brainwashing of white privilige. So yes, you are correct. It's about Whites vs. every one else who isn't white. Better? The OP is trying to express her own experiences and for anyone to try and dumb it down is wrong.
Lol. Thanks for taking a small snippet of a larger post, and replying to it completely out of context. That has happened to many of my posts so I'm just going to stop responding after this because frankly I don't care if people want to dissect things out of context. You can argue whatever you want, anyone can, but it doesn't mean I ever said it. No one once said in this entire thread that racism doesn't exist. But the thing is, both racism and intersectionality are both discriminatory items and it doesn't just cause discrimination based on skin color... its ethnicity, culture, name, parents/family, weight, features, and so many other things, which is what I was pointing out. That doesn't nullify racism, I'm just adding vegetables to the pea stew. And its the truth.
I don't agree that white privilege exists, but like I said before in 3 different posts now that were obviously not read, westernized privilege does exist because the western world is the standard for a lot of things out there. But westernized isn't synonymous with white. It just isn't. And non-white can be westernized. Its fine for anyone to blame white people or whatever else, but that won't change anyone's own realities. Even if white people are blamed, it still doesn't affect me and I wouldn't even put myself in the "white" subcategorization IRL and most people think I'm middle eastern or arabic IRL so its not really a situation even relevant to me.
Like several people have said before in this thread, there's nothing any "white" person can do that would make people who take this stance, happy so there's really no point for me to even debate this any longer.
If I said: "Woohoo!! I'm white! I've got it maaaaade! Sucks for everyone whose got white!!" then guess whose going to be pissed?
If I said: "No, we're all equal. I could care less what someone's skin color is because I judge them based on their character/" which is what I'm saying right now, guess whose pissed?
There's no other option. And I'm not going to acknowledge something that is not congruent with my own reality and experiences. I'm not pushing my argument on other people, but I feel like other people's arguments are being pushed on me.
I find it mighty weird that the black people in this post keep saying: "Just acknowledge white privilege. You've never lived as a black person so you don't understand." but yet its apparently wrong for a half-white person to say: "I'm half white on paper, have not experienced many privileges because most people think I'm Middle Eastern or Arabic with a non-white/non-American name, grew up in poverty, and I get stupid comments left & right about my perceived ethnicity/background/culture, but I need to acknowledge my ~*white privilege*~ to black people even though they have never lived through MY life so they don't understand." Nope.
I've received a lot of PMs and messages in other chat services that people have really enjoyed my posts, but are too scared to say anything in this thread, so I know I'm not alone in my thinking. But you, like myself, are free to think whatever you want lol. Its just a sad world when other people have been scared into not commenting.
There's no way to please in the situation, so there's no point even being in this situation any longer. You know its time to end it when people start taking all of your posts out of context lol. I've made my points and I'm happy with them, so we can agree to disagree :)
Issabelle
10-06-2014, 03:25 PM
Ah, fuck it, I'm adding another post here because this thread is awesome, just like loveshooks said. I feel like bringing in a parallel most if not all of us can understand: sexism. I was chatting with KK a bit ago and considered it, so bare with me.
I am the only child in my family and I have an exceptionally close relationship with my father. We're very, very similar in our personalities, meaning we don't take bullshit and we're pretty driven to excel. A few months ago, we got into a debate about why I wouldn't move home and pick up an office job between now and graduate school. It basically boiled down to 'yes, I'd love to live at home with you, but I cannot stand my home town's overt sexism and complete disregard for a woman's safety and comfort.' He got it, but then he didn't. Empirically, he could see the pay gap I faced, the preference for men over women in positions regardless of my higher qualifications, and even the ass slapping and hustling I experienced by men in his presence. He got appropriately pissed that anyone would discriminate against his beloved daughter, citing my education, intelligence, and personality aptitude. Then he cited my good looks as a 'cherry on top' sort of thing. And I knew he didn't get it. He didn't get that I've had to take him to car dealerships with me or bring him along as a 'witness' when I've signed rental agreements. He didn't understand that I once had an interviewer suggest I give him a blow job to get hired. He thought I should just stick it out while under-qualified (male) applicant after (male) applicant was promoted above me, because 'eventually they'll promote you and you'll kick ass' and didn't understand why that pissed me off more. He sympathized but could not empathize.
Sympathy: to feel sorry for someone who is in a bad situation; commiseration; to express sadness or sympathy for someone who has experienced something unpleasant; to share in grief
Empathy: to have the same feelings as another person; to understand
No matter how you slice it, sympathy and empathy are not the same things. They differ directly in first hand experience. I can sympathize, but that's about it. I want to empathize, but I physically cannot. It almost feels like I'm doing all of you a disservice not being able to empathize, but I dearly hope my sympathies are enough for me to help and support you girls.
justanothercamgirl
10-06-2014, 03:25 PM
So, to have a safe space on here dedicated to having that representation for women of color to share these experiences within and outside of this business, express these grievances, and discuss things rationally and reasonably only to have people who can't even really relate say things like "I don't believe in x/that happened x amount of years ago so it shouldn't matter anymore/stop believing in x or racism will still live on" or asking for help and clarity and then reneging on that for the sake of argument is beyond frustrating. It's insulting.
In my own personal opinion, there has been a lot of accidental insulting going on because there has been a lot of miscommunication going on. When I first joined this thread I had no idea that it was supposed to be a safe space and I just assumed that it was a poll discussing camming in race in the abstract. That was my mistake, my assumptions were completely wrong and for that I do give my apologizes.
When it comes to things like people reneging for the sake of argument it is always very hard to be sure that is what they are actually doing. Cognitive dissonance is a very tricky thing. In my personal life experience, it has been very hard to tell if someone is actually a jerk or just lying to themselves. ;)
justanothercamgirl
10-06-2014, 03:38 PM
No matter how you slice it, sympathy and empathy are not the same things. They differ directly in first hand experience. I can sympathize, but that's about it. I want to empathize, but I physically cannot. It almost feels like I'm doing all of you a disservice not being able to empathize, but I dearly hope my sympathies are enough for me to help and support you girls.
At the risk of sounding like a complete bleeding heart this has got to be one of the most beautiful statements I've ever read on Stripperweb.
http://media1.giphy.com/media/DuhXoEkJX3Im4/giphy.gif
LaPetiteVierge
10-06-2014, 03:58 PM
Lol. Thanks for taking a small snippet of a larger post, and replying to it completely out of context. That has happened to many of my posts so I'm just going to stop responding after this because frankly I don't care if people want to dissect things out of context. You can argue whatever you want, anyone can, but it doesn't mean I ever said it. No one once said in this entire thread that racism doesn't exist. But the thing is, both racism and intersectionality are both discriminatory items and it doesn't just cause discrimination based on skin color... its ethnicity, culture, name, parents/family, weight, features, and so many other things, which is what I was pointing out. That doesn't nullify racism, I'm just adding vegetables to the pea stew. And its the truth.
I don't agree that white privilege exists, but like I said before in 3 different posts now that were obviously not read, westernized privilege does exist because the western world is the standard for a lot of things out there. But westernized isn't synonymous with white. It just isn't. And non-white can be westernized. Its fine for anyone to blame white people or whatever else, but that won't change anyone's own realities. Even if white people are blamed, it still doesn't affect me and I wouldn't even put myself in the "white" subcategorization IRL and most people think I'm middle eastern or arabic IRL so its not really a situation even relevant to me.
Like several people have said before in this thread, there's nothing any "white" person can do that would make people who take this stance, happy so there's really no point for me to even debate this any longer.
If I said: "Woohoo!! I'm white! I've got it maaaaade! Sucks for everyone whose got white!!" then guess whose going to be pissed?
If I said: "No, we're all equal. I could care less what someone's skin color is because I judge them based on their character/" which is what I'm saying right now, guess whose pissed?
There's no other option. And I'm not going to acknowledge something that is not congruent with my own reality and experiences. I'm not pushing my argument on other people, but I feel like other people's arguments are being pushed on me.
I find it mighty weird that the black people in this post keep saying: "Just acknowledge white privilege. You've never lived as a black person so you don't understand." but yet its apparently wrong for a half-white person to say: "I'm half white on paper, have not experienced many privileges because most people think I'm Middle Eastern or Arabic with a non-white/non-American name, grew up in poverty, and I get stupid comments left & right about my perceived ethnicity/background/culture, but I need to acknowledge my ~*white privilege*~ to black people even though they have never lived through MY life so they don't understand." Nope.
I've received a lot of PMs and messages in other chat services that people have really enjoyed my posts, but are too scared to say anything in this thread, so I know I'm not alone in my thinking. But you, like myself, are free to think whatever you want lol. Its just a sad world when other people have been scared into not commenting.
There's no way to please in the situation, so there's no point even being in this situation any longer. You know its time to end it when people start taking all of your posts out of context lol. I've made my points and I'm happy with them, so we can agree to disagree :)
The massive majority of your contributions in this thread have been in disagreement with larger experiences, terms, and realities. It's not as though you've spent the majority of your time contributing to the conversation of race in relation to camming and reality with neutral or positive notions. You've spent more time debunking and debating attempts at clarity and understanding and providing perspective than being a positive figurehead for or against anything. You've been liking people's notion that this thread is pointless, quantifying racial experiences to being virtually no different than lesser encompassing negative experiences with "discrimination is discrimination", and consistently suggesting that things that people actively say are apart of their lives or an actual thing are something you hate, disagree with, or don't believe exists/matters.
I need you to also know that you aren't the only multiethnic/white passing/whatever person contributing to the conversation in this thread. I included half white, biracial, multiethnic, and white passing in several of my posts for those whom are those things and have taken it upon themselves to object with things in here. I've consistently clarified that for your sake, knowing you'd feel personally targeted. It seems like you're pushing your argument onto people when you consistently and mostly come to voice your opposing perspective on things.
Edited: There's plenty of people who also feel uncomfortable contributing their thoughts here, some of whom subsequently got fed up with the bullshit and decided to contribute, because of the things being stated that nullifies, minimizes, and mutes experiences shared. Not just people who agree with you. People who disagree with you too.
LaPetiteVierge
10-06-2014, 04:09 PM
Let it be known that the conversation isn't to please anybody. No one of color in here has stated that they want white people to change or act different. People of various backgrounds have been sharing and discussing thoughts, opinions, and experiences with the intent of venting and adding input, not to be critiqued or judged. There has been content shared here in order to give people perspective on things from within the reality of being racialized and that content has consistently undergone scrutiny. That's the issue. Not just the fact that people "disagree" with the existence of social constructs, but also the fact that people contribute things here only to have them debunked and debated to the point of it being futile to contend or retort any further. I've stated repeatedly that conversation and discussion is healthy. Respectful exchange is healthy. But it's not healthy and does a disservice to bring other notions down just because you don't "get" it or live it.
0 people are asking for help. None. Beyond statements here claiming to want "understanding", that's it. So, anyone can feel like "there's nothing white people can do to fix this" because no one was asking for a solution. One was given pages ago, but that went unheard and unresponded to.
kortneykay
10-06-2014, 04:14 PM
I find it funny that whenever I post or disagree with GR she doesn't want to "argue" or respond anymore. Why does my 2 posts out of 17 whole pages have that affect on anyone? For someone who idolizes Charles Manson like yourself, I think you're full of shit. (we all talk, sweetie) All I did was state true experiences that have happened, and are happening. White privilege is something that exits. PERIOD. I have a side of my family who is white as well so trust me, I know. Pull the wool over your eyes and chat in PM among your "scared" peers all you want. This isn't a matter of opinion, it's all factual. You keep saying that "no one on here has claimed racism doesn't exist" but you clearly cannot read a poll correctly because 8 people (probably including you) have stated that it doesn't.
GR, you have contributed a lot to this site and it is appreciated. However, you're saying something doesn't exist when it's clear that it does and that's what bothers some people. I never said "you're not black so you don't know/understand" like you claim but I am saying that just because you didn't experience something it doesn't mean that it isn't true.
You clearly live under a rock because Western culture IS pushed on practically EVERY culture out there. Yes, western civilization IS synonymous with being white. When someone thinks of Western Culture, what do you think the first image in their mind comes to? A WHITE person! Every single country that has even been invaded by whites has left a very large footprint. It has always been "Conform to my standards, or die." People who are non white are obsessed with skin color. Why do you think that is? Why is it that Asians, Africans, Indians and everyone else has a caste system within their own communities? Why is skin lightening cream sought after so much universally—it is present among the African nations, African Americans, India, Southeast Asia (especially the Philippines), East Asia (Japan, Korea, and China) and Latin America. I'm not trying to start any drama, I'm trying to explain that what the op suggests is true and is thriving. You can agree to disagree all you want but that doesn't take away the fact that it happens.
GlamourRouge
10-06-2014, 04:17 PM
I find it funny that whenever I post or disagree with GR she doesn't want to "argue" or respond anymore.
PM I love to debate :). Or I'm in various chatzys. But I have given over like 15 posts, and I find myself repeating myself over and over and over, and things taken out of context.
I just have an extremely high goal this week on cam and have sooo much to do like unpack, and social obligations all this week, so I don't have time to keep checking this thread and repeating myself lol
kortneykay
10-06-2014, 04:23 PM
PM I love to debate :). Or I'm in various chatzys. But I have given over like 15 posts, and I find myself repeating myself over and over and over, and things taken out of context.
I just have an extremely high goal this week on cam and have sooo much to do like unpack, and social obligations all this week, so I don't have time to keep checking this thread and repeating myself lol
I didn't come here to debate or PM anyone though I appreciate the offer. I've only posted 3-4 times as I avoided this thread for a while and I too have to pack, and unpack but I just feel like people are trying to claim this as a war against whites vs. blacks and it's not. People just want others to hear their stories and acknowledge that white privilege exists, and that race and camming are a thing that people deal with on a daily basis.
LaPetiteVierge
10-06-2014, 04:25 PM
Ah, fuck it, I'm adding another post here because this thread is awesome, just like loveshooks said. I feel like bringing in a parallel most if not all of us can understand: sexism. I was chatting with KK a bit ago and considered it, so bare with me.
I am the only child in my family and I have an exceptionally close relationship with my father. We're very, very similar in our personalities, meaning we don't take bullshit and we're pretty driven to excel. A few months ago, we got into a debate about why I wouldn't move home and pick up an office job between now and graduate school. It basically boiled down to 'yes, I'd love to live at home with you, but I cannot stand my home town's overt sexism and complete disregard for a woman's safety and comfort.' He got it, but then he didn't. Empirically, he could see the pay gap I faced, the preference for men over women in positions regardless of my higher qualifications, and even the ass slapping and hustling I experienced by men in his presence. He got appropriately pissed that anyone would discriminate against his beloved daughter, citing my education, intelligence, and personality aptitude. Then he cited my good looks as a 'cherry on top' sort of thing. And I knew he didn't get it. He didn't get that I've had to take him to car dealerships with me or bring him along as a 'witness' when I've signed rental agreements. He didn't understand that I once had an interviewer suggest I give him a blow job to get hired. He thought I should just stick it out while under-qualified (male) applicant after (male) applicant was promoted above me, because 'eventually they'll promote you and you'll kick ass' and didn't understand why that pissed me off more. He sympathized but could not empathize.
Sympathy: to feel sorry for someone who is in a bad situation; commiseration; to express sadness or sympathy for someone who has experienced something unpleasant; to share in grief
Empathy: to have the same feelings as another person; to understand
No matter how you slice it, sympathy and empathy are not the same things. They differ directly in first hand experience. I can sympathize, but that's about it. I want to empathize, but I physically cannot. It almost feels like I'm doing all of you a disservice not being able to empathize, but I dearly hope my sympathies are enough for me to help and support you girls.
I'm sorry you had to endure those things. Sympathy is more than okay. Thank you so much for sharing that and feeling the need to analogize it with your feelings on this. :(
JaneBurgess
10-06-2014, 05:54 PM
Everyone has a preference off cam as well. Guys buy shows with performers they are attracted too, that's just a fact. I like dark haired guys with light eyes, that's my type. Looks will always play a huge part in cammimg and always will.
^^^ that probably leads to another earlier point being repeated ... that, where camgirls are concerned, their earnings potential is closely tied to the 'discretionary' spending budgets of customers who have a preference / affinity for the particular 'attributes' they offer. Thus customer income demographics and customer preferences may play a large role.
JaneBurgess
10-06-2014, 06:06 PM
It is the key to success. I don't believe being white or looking white on cam means you make more money or do more shows. If that was the case you wouldn't have white performers struggling, they would be running to the bank. Camming is more than looks, it's personality, sexuality, acting, etc. You have to have a whole package to do well. I don't believe I have ever done well in this industry because I have blonde hair and light eyes. I do well because I always worked hard and I don't let anyone stop me. I have been told before for shoots I am not the "type" they are looking for. I never took it personally I just moved on and worked with other people.
Hard work is the key. Camming isn't for everyone and I don't think it's based on race. It's a hard job, one that requires patience and people skills. Not everyone has those skills and that's ok. You don't see a lot of women of color in the industry because they believe the myth that women of color can't do well. You can do well and there are plenty of men and women in this industry that aren't white that make bank.
But isn't that because black people and latino people are more likely to come from poverty or lower social class than white people, thus having less money than white people? [That's what the stats out tell us right now, but it will take a few more generations til its pretty equal with the current deterioration of the middle class through debt.] I say this as a half latino person that did grow up in poverty.
So wouldn't white people be less harshly sentenced because they have more money and more connections which is VITAL when hiring a good defense attorney?
$$$$ = a good lawyer = a less harsh sentence. I really don't think it has to do with being white, or very very very rarely.
I really think this is the key to any form of success.
I mean, think about it. We are literally trained for 13 (K+12) mandatory years to "learn" things through being told "facts" and then repeating them back on a test. If that's not brainwashing, I don't know what is.
Not only that, but we are taught:
a.) we need to work for SOMEONE ELSE (that will never make you rich lol)
b.) to believe the media lies that further push racial hostility and secret agendas like consumerism
c.) lies IN GENERAL like how Christopher Columbus "discovered" America lololol. its all lies.
d.) not how to save, fix things, or invest, which would actually be VERY USEFUL
We are DESIGNED to be minions and fail, and if you want to succeed, you have to be smarter and know to go AGAINST all of what you're taught. And that starts with not believing any race is inferior, superior, or has "special benefits" in life. It doesn't work that way. And to clarify, I definitely do believe in "attractive person" privilege, but that can be true for any race, and it can also be a disadvantage in many instances but sexwork is not one of them.
justanothercamgirl
10-06-2014, 06:24 PM
So, anyone can feel like "there's nothing white people can do to fix this" because no one was asking for a solution. One was given pages ago, but that went unheard and unresponded to.
Just because something is unresponded to doesn't mean it wasn't heard.
I heard it. :)
LaPetiteVierge
10-07-2014, 08:12 AM
It is the key to success. I don't believe being white or looking white on cam means you make more money or do more shows. If that was the case you wouldn't have white performers struggling, they would be running to the bank. Camming is more than looks, it's personality, sexuality, acting, etc. You have to have a whole package to do well. I don't believe I have ever done well in this industry because I have blonde hair and light eyes. I do well because I always worked hard and I don't let anyone stop me. I have been told before for shoots I am not the "type" they are looking for. I never took it personally I just moved on and worked with other people.
Hard work is the key. Camming isn't for everyone and I don't think it's based on race. It's a hard job, one that requires patience and people skills. Not everyone has those skills and that's ok. You don't see a lot of women of color in the industry because they believe the myth that women of color can't do well. You can do well and there are plenty of men and women in this industry that aren't white that make bank.
Good for you for not taking things personally. You asked a while back for data about the role race plays in things and it's been shared. Since you haven't been active as much, I'll link you to it.
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)&p=2676520&viewfull=1#post2676520
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)&p=2677077&viewfull=1#post2677077
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)&p=2677367&viewfull=1#post2677367
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)&p=2677395&viewfull=1#post2677395
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)/page12&p=2677341#post2677341
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)/page13&p=2677472#post2677472
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)&p=2680116&viewfull=1#post2680116
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)&p=2679886&viewfull=1#post2679886
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)&p=2680161&viewfull=1#post2680161
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)&p=2680470&viewfull=1#post2680470
(There's more. Just didn't do more than skim for it.)
Also, keep in mind that not a single person in this thread has said they don't make any money because of their race. It keeps getting repeated that "if you work hard, you can make money". It was noted and responded to the first time. Reiterating it isn't necessary as this point since it's not as though people are continuing with that notion.
The notion that continues to be discussed is the existence and issue of race outside of camming.
By continuing to nullify people's experiences with the notion that racist abuse in camming can be quantified to other things that mostly are insults and suggesting that anyone who feels racialized needs to "work harder", you guys detract from the seriousness of racism as a social construct and minimize it to people saying mean things when it's deeper and more significant than that.
You and everyone else here participating that's doing that.
It'd really be one thing if you and other people were solely contributing your experiences rather than debating people's experiences and responding with the same things such as "x doesn't exist/doesn't matter/is the same as y." The former is not what you guys are doing.
People are sharing very painful, personal experiences and realities and you guys are trying to detract from what they're saying. It may not be your intention, but you are.
And rather than continuing to do that, it'd be best to just stop. It's doing nothing more than adding hostile tension to this thread and making it uncomfortable for those of whom thought this would be a safe space to share things. THAT's why people have said they don't want to contribute here. THAT's why people feel like white women and white passing/light skinned women have no place here. Because the consistent presence is to argue about shit. Not much positive beyond that. You're trying to nullify and minimize a perspective/reality and experience rather than/more than being supportive and sympathizing. It's seriously hurting people and shunning them away and NOBODY's owning up to that. They're just continuing to hurt people without regard for how it affects others and, when faced with the fact that they're doing that, either responding with the equivalent of "I don't care how what I said makes you feel. I just agree to disagree." or not saying shit and thanking a post by someone else who says the former.
PhatGirlDynomite!!!
10-07-2014, 09:51 AM
I hadn't seen this post until now. I just watched it and when it gets to about 5:35 I was reminded of this Excerpt:
A member of Colorado's state Board of Education argued that the fact that the United States voluntarily ended slavery proved "American execptionalism" and this perspective should be taught to students. (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/pam-mazanac-us-ended-slavery-voluntarily)
No wonder so many are clueless to what's going on when you have EDUCATORS like this one who says things like "We also ended it voluntarily, at great sacrifice" (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/pam-mazanac-us-ended-slavery-voluntarily) That's regarding slavery. The loss of capital is what she was speaking of. Not the sacrifice of the millions of people who are enslaved throughout history who have lost their own history as a result. She completely brushes over the principle that stealing people is wrong and very damaging. So again it's no wonder that people are unaware what others go through when you have powerful people working hard to erase it.
There are people in very high places who want to go back in time and manipulate history booksj. Some of these people feel that by having actual events and testimonials documented are misleading for up and coming youth. And the only solution is to change the wording in textbooks so that they feel more comfortable about what has occurred. What does this have to do with this clip? It falls in line with his saying "they dont want you to know about that." I don't live my life feeling disadvantaged. I don't wake up thinking "Oh God today is gonna be a mediocre day because of my skin." I know better than that. I learned the game a long time ago. And I figured out how to be successful and maneuver around those restraints. This shit is real. Yes people have their preferences and will only spend when they have discretionary income. But many of them prefer to spend it on specific races when they do have the money to burn. And that has a lot to do with what we are taught and reinforced stereotypes over the years. Im not angry or mad at anyone here or seek to make anyone uncomfortable but the constant No this isn't happening and you just need to work harder bull shit is getting out of hand. I work hard too. And make a nice chunk of money by most standards. But again I figured out the game and make it work for me. So many don't and do feel defeated. Telling people that what they feel as a result of what they've experienced and that their perception is stupid (that was stated in this thread) is just cruel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex6mbHOR85A
@justanothercamgirl & @SarahTime
This is a video about why white people don't speak out against racism and he partially touches on what should be done.
LaPetiteVierge
10-07-2014, 10:07 AM
I hadn't seen this post until now. I just watched it and when it gets to about 5:35 I was reminded of this Excerpt:
A member of Colorado's state Board of Education argued that the fact that the United States voluntarily ended slavery proved "American execptionalism" and this perspective should be taught to students. (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/pam-mazanac-us-ended-slavery-voluntarily)
No wonder so many are clueless to what's going on when you have EDUCATORS like this one who says things like "We also ended it voluntarily, at great sacrifice" (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/pam-mazanac-us-ended-slavery-voluntarily) That's regarding slavery. The loss of capital is what she was speaking of. Not the sacrifice of the millions of people who are enslaved throughout history who have lost their own history as a result. She completely brushes over the principle that stealing people is wrong and very damaging. So again it's no wonder that people are unaware what others go through when you have powerful people working hard to erase it.
There are people in very high places who want to go back in time and manipulate history booksj. Some of these people feel that by having actual events and testimonials documented are misleading for up and coming youth. And the only solution is to change the wording in textbooks so that they feel more comfortable about what has occurred. What does this have to do with this clip? It falls in line with his saying "they dont want you to know about that." I don't live my life feeling disadvantaged. I don't wake up thinking "Oh God today is gonna be a mediocre day because of my skin." I know better than that. I learned the game a long time ago. And I figured out how to be successful and maneuver around those restraints. This shit is real. Yes people have their preferences and will only spend when they have discretionary income. But many of them prefer to spend it on specific races when they do have the money to burn. And that has a lot to do with what we are taught and reinforced stereotypes over the years. Im not angry or mad at anyone here or seek to make anyone uncomfortable but the constant No this isn't happening and you just need to work harder bull shit is getting out of hand. I work hard too. And make a nice chunk of money by most standards. But again I figured out the game and make it work for me. So many don't and do feel defeated. Telling people that what they feel as a result of what they've experienced and that their perception is stupid (that was stated in this thread) is just cruel.
Thank you for this. I think the main issue with sympathy in this thread is that, the fact that people are even expressing their grievances is viewed as "complaining". Despite all evidence of trends within society, industries, and personal accounts, these things are still being talked about as if we're discussing seeing the Lochness Monster and using evidence that requires great skeptism to properly analyze. People in here aren't claiming a position of neutrality and seeking more perspective of the circumstances that non-white people have to endure. They're taking things like terminologies, social constructs, evidence of racial bias, and personal experiences and construing it in a way that 1. makes us seem like we're complaining and expecting them to pander to us for a solution and 2. makes our racialized problems seem as minute as hair color preference, breast size preference, and so on. The unique experience of race is being quantified to petty insults when in reality it's seeped it's way inside most every aspect of reality for those of us endure it.
It sucks. It sucks having even a member of the board of education in a state nullify and mute the seriousness and significance of race.
People think this shit is a card than be played, a fleeting feeling that can be had, something that happened a lifetime ago... Sad.
kortneykay
10-07-2014, 10:28 AM
I hadn't seen this post until now. I just watched it and when it gets to about 5:35 I was reminded of this Excerpt:
A member of Colorado's state Board of Education argued that the fact that the United States voluntarily ended slavery proved "American execptionalism" and this perspective should be taught to students. (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/pam-mazanac-us-ended-slavery-voluntarily)
No wonder so many are clueless to what's going on when you have EDUCATORS like this one who says things like "We also ended it voluntarily, at great sacrifice" (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/pam-mazanac-us-ended-slavery-voluntarily) That's regarding slavery. The loss of capital is what she was speaking of. Not the sacrifice of the millions of people who are enslaved throughout history who have lost their own history as a result. She completely brushes over the principle that stealing people is wrong and very damaging. So again it's no wonder that people are unaware what others go through when you have powerful people working hard to erase it.
There are people in very high places who want to go back in time and manipulate history booksj. Some of these people feel that by having actual events and testimonials documented are misleading for up and coming youth. And the only solution is to change the wording in textbooks so that they feel more comfortable about what has occurred. What does this have to do with this clip? It falls in line with his saying "they dont want you to know about that." I don't live my life feeling disadvantaged. I don't wake up thinking "Oh God today is gonna be a mediocre day because of my skin." I know better than that. I learned the game a long time ago. And I figured out how to be successful and maneuver around those restraints. This shit is real. Yes people have their preferences and will only spend when they have discretionary income. But many of them prefer to spend it on specific races when they do have the money to burn. And that has a lot to do with what we are taught and reinforced stereotypes over the years. Im not angry or mad at anyone here or seek to make anyone uncomfortable but the constant No this isn't happening and you just need to work harder bull shit is getting out of hand. I work hard too. And make a nice chunk of money by most standards. But again I figured out the game and make it work for me. So many don't and do feel defeated. Telling people that what they feel as a result of what they've experienced and that their perception is stupid (that was stated in this thread) is just cruel.
That reminds me of teachers that taught us about Abe Lincoln and how he "ended slavery" when he was playing both sides. Here's a excerpt from his speech in 1858 in Charleston, IL:
“I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever
have been, in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political
equality of the white and black races; that I am not, nor ever have been, in
favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold
office, nor to intermarry with white people… And inasmuch as they cannot so
live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and
inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior
position assigned to the white race.”
@Lapetite, great video!
justanothercamgirl
10-07-2014, 10:44 AM
That reminds me of teachers that taught us about Abe Lincoln and how he "ended slavery" when he was playing both sides. Here's a excerpt from his speech in 1858 in Charleston, IL:
“I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever
have been, in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political
equality of the white and black races; that I am not, nor ever have been, in
favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold
office, nor to intermarry with white people… And inasmuch as they cannot so
live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and
inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior
position assigned to the white race.”
@Lapetite, great video!
Abe Lincoln was actually playing both sides for a specific reason.
If you ever want to read an interesting take on why he chose that tactic I highly recommend the book 'Mastery' by Robert Greene
On the off chance anyone misunderstands the context of the title the book is about the importance of the mastery of a skill set and looks into how many great leaders acquired their skillsets.
PhatGirlDynomite!!!
10-07-2014, 11:18 AM
Never heard of that book. But i'll check it out on Amazon.
Abe Lincoln was actually playing both sides for a specific reason.
If you ever want to read an interesting take on why he chose that tactic I highly recommend the book 'Mastery' by Robert Greene
On the off chance anyone misunderstands the context of the title the book is about the importance of the mastery of a skill set and looks into how many great leaders acquired their skillsets.
justanothercamgirl
10-07-2014, 11:30 AM
Never heard of that book. But i'll check it out on Amazon.
I totally admit that I have a complete intellectual hard-on for Robert Greene but I do know some of the stuff he writes might not be everyone's cup of tea. :)
Edited to add: I forgot to add Robert Greene also wrote a book called, "The Art of Seduction" which I think a lot of camgirls would enjoy.
PhatGirlDynomite!!!
10-07-2014, 12:10 PM
Okay I just read up on this book and it seems that Abe Lincoln is a side point in the book? It seems like it's mostly about leadership and acknowledging different perspectives. (Not against that at all) I haven't read the whole chapter or excerpt. Nor do I fully understand why you think Robert Greene has a grasp on Abraham Lincoln's duality during his presidency. Can you explain a little bit more please?
I found this when searching
http://news.genius.com/Robert-greene-chapter-1-see-things-for-what-they-are-intense-realism-annotated
I make money but I'm still frugal and refuse to spend money on things that don't immediately make sense. :D
I totally admit that I have a complete intellectual hard-on for Robert Greene but I do know some of the stuff he writes might not be everyone's cup of tea. :)
Edited to add: I forgot to add Robert Greene also wrote a book called, "The Art of Seduction" which I think a lot of camgirls would enjoy.
kortneykay
10-07-2014, 12:12 PM
I wonder how many ladies in here who use their talents for certain fetishes feel about tools they use to fetishsize race in their cam shows? Example: BBC, SPH (specifically SPH with Caucasian males) (BBC in terms of both Caucasian and African-American clients) and Big Black Cock strap ons that are used in their sessions for Caucasian clients. Do you feel that it's just merely a fetish, or is it deeper? Do you ever feel like you're doing a form of exploitation every time you do a race focused session? I'm curious because I know quite a few ladies who've spoken here that they don't "see" it in cam, yet they perform these fetishes for their customers. Perhaps they are doing it and not realizing it? In my defense my cam character will be "racist" for money (in a show) or do a race-focused session because my customers get off on it and I'm getting paid to do it. I wonder if other ladies think the same?
My thinking is, if you don't see color, or don't really suffer from racism, oppression, etc, what do you think of the customers that bring it to your sessions? Example: "Hey white bitch, suck my BBC!" or "Mistress, I want to be fucked with your big black strap on cock." or, "You're a Nubian Goddess and I need you to humiliate my tiny white cock and destroy my ass with your black strap on." I feel like even if you were the least racist person in the world, because you are in this industry, you cannot avoid it. If you don't bring it up, a customer will in some way, shape or form. We cannot change them after all and we are in the business of giving them what they want in exchange for currency.
SarahTime
10-07-2014, 01:55 PM
I wonder how many ladies in here who use their talents for certain fetishes feel about tools they use to fetishsize race in their cam shows? Example: BBC, SPH (specifically SPH with Caucasian males) (BBC in terms of both Caucasian and African-American clients) and Big Black Cock strap ons that are used in their sessions for Caucasian clients. Do you feel that it's just merely a fetish, or is it deeper? Do you ever feel like you're doing a form of exploitation every time you do a race focused session? I'm curious because I know quite a few ladies who've spoken here that they don't "see" it in cam, yet they perform these fetishes for their customers. Perhaps they are doing it and not realizing it? In my defense my cam character will be "racist" for money (in a show) or do a race-focused session because my customers get off on it and I'm getting paid to do it. I wonder if other ladies think the same?
My thinking is, if you don't see color, or don't really suffer from racism, oppression, etc, what do you think of the customers that bring it to your sessions? Example: "Hey white bitch, suck my BBC!" or "Mistress, I want to be fucked with your big black strap on cock." or, "You're a Nubian Goddess and I need you to humiliate my tiny white cock and destroy my ass with your black strap on." I feel like even if you were the least racist person in the world, because you are in this industry, you cannot avoid it. If you don't bring it up, a customer will in some way, shape or form. We cannot change them after all and we are in the business of giving them what they want in exchange for currency.
Something related to camming, yay! :)
I personally do not do shows that are like BBC or SPH or anything like that. It's just not my cup of tea, it makes me uncomfortable to participate in those types of shows.
There was ONE regular I had back when I thought I had to do everything in order to make money, that always wanted me to talk about his "n*gger dick" and I'm SOOOO glad he's not a regular anymore. I always dreaded doing his shows for that reason, but I felt like I had to for some reason, because he never bothered to ask me if I was okay with it he just went exclusive and told me to say it, and back then I did anything I could to not lose out on money.
But now, no. I refuse to participate in that stuff. You definitely can't avoid being exposed to it though, because unfortunately most guys don't even bother to ask they just assume you will do whatever the hell they tell you to. Nothing against anyone who does choose to participate in it, because I will tell guys "no sorry but check out -this model- I hear she's great", so on the one hand I won't personally do it but I don't have any issue with anyone else choosing to do it if that is what both people want and are okay with.
Issabelle
10-07-2014, 02:38 PM
Oh, I can't do race-focused cam sessions. They just make me markedly uncomfortable, whether it's the guys who ask for BBC cuckold cheating fantasies or the guy who recently PMed me on SM asking me to do a slavery fetish, call him n*****, and other race play. I'm totally fine with SPH, but mine don't ever really touch on race. I don't even have skin tone dildos, but that's mostly because I want my toys to have a built in vibrator and don't give a shit if they have an issue with my pink, glitter gel dildo for deep throating. It was cheap and I'm trying to save money camming, not spend it on random toys/outfits I don't need. I run for the hills when those requests come up, partly because the racial aspect makes me uncomfortable and partly because I stumble through them with the kind of finesse that leads to a shit rating.
justanothercamgirl
10-07-2014, 03:27 PM
Okay I just read up on this book and it seems that Abe Lincoln is a side point in the book? It seems like it's mostly about leadership and acknowledging different perspectives. (Not against that at all) I haven't read the whole chapter or excerpt. Nor do I fully understand why you think Robert Greene has a grasp on Abraham Lincoln's duality during his presidency. Can you explain a little bit more please?
I found this when searching
http://news.genius.com/Robert-greene-chapter-1-see-things-for-what-they-are-intense-realism-annotated
I make money but I'm still frugal and refuse to spend money on things that don't immediately make sense. :D
If you just want to know about Abe, then how about this link then. ;)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2261962/Was-Lincoln-racist-Spielberg-film-lionises-historians-asking-shocking-question.html
Here are some highlights if you are in a hurry:
Privately, he expressed his ‘dislike’ for it, but in public stressed that he didn’t want to abolish it, but only stop it from spreading.
<snip>Historian Henry Louis Gates has called him a ‘recovering racist’. Other African-American experts on the period agree.
So was Abe a racist? Yep.
In the context of the time was he less of a racist then other people? Probably.
Did the end of slavery happen because of one man, Abe Lincoln? Nope.
But don't get me started on how America loves to rewrite its own history, my favorite rewrites usually have to do with the way it rewrites its importance in World War II.*
*http://www.cracked.com/article_18389_the-5-most-widely-believed-wwii-facts-that-are-bullshit.html
justanothercamgirl
10-07-2014, 03:31 PM
^^^
Oh, I forgot to add that it pretty much looks like he tricked the North and South into fighting with each other.
Honest Abe, my ass. ;)
justanothercamgirl
10-07-2014, 03:42 PM
Okay I just read up on this book and it seems that Abe Lincoln is a side point in the book? It seems like it's mostly about leadership and acknowledging different perspectives. (Not against that at all) I haven't read the whole chapter or excerpt. Nor do I fully understand why you think Robert Greene has a grasp on Abraham Lincoln's duality during his presidency. Can you explain a little bit more please?
I found this when searching
http://news.genius.com/Robert-greene-chapter-1-see-things-for-what-they-are-intense-realism-annotated
I make money but I'm still frugal and refuse to spend money on things that don't immediately make sense. :D
I wanted to answer this separately so I didn't accidentally hijack the thread.
The snippet of the book you found is from the '50th Law'. The tl;dr is that after reading Robert Greene's book 'The 48 Laws of Power' 50 cent approached him about writting a book with him and RG was fascinated with 50's life (since RG is an entitled old white guy) that he decided to write a book with 50 about 50's own belief system instead.
I hope that made sense......I know it was confusing for me to even try to explain. (*grins*)
JaneBurgess
10-07-2014, 05:34 PM
No we aren't. It has been said in here many times people that are white or have white features do better in camming which simply isn't true. No one said racism doesnt exist but it takes more than a certain race to make it in the adult industry.
I can't tell you how it is as a black woman in this industry. I can tell you how it is on my end and looking white hasn't made it any easier. Racism exists for everyone, that's just a sad fact of life.
I bring up hard work because it's ignorant to say because someone is light they will do well. Camming is based on more than just looks and always will be. If this is a thread about race than all opinions should be respected. No one seemed to care when a couple white performers said they were offended, they were told to get over it. That should apply to anyone that has an issue with what any of us say.
Good for you for not taking things personally. You asked a while back for data about the role race plays in things and it's been shared. Since you haven't been active as much, I'll link you to it.
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)&p=2676520&viewfull=1#post2676520
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)&p=2677077&viewfull=1#post2677077
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)&p=2677367&viewfull=1#post2677367
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)&p=2677395&viewfull=1#post2677395
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)/page12&p=2677341#post2677341
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)/page13&p=2677472#post2677472
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)&p=2680116&viewfull=1#post2680116
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)&p=2679886&viewfull=1#post2679886
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)&p=2680161&viewfull=1#post2680161
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?195551-Race-and-Camming-(Survey-inside)&p=2680470&viewfull=1#post2680470
(There's more. Just didn't do more than skim for it.)
Also, keep in mind that not a single person in this thread has said they don't make any money because of their race. It keeps getting repeated that "if you work hard, you can make money". It was noted and responded to the first time. Reiterating it isn't necessary as this point since it's not as though people are continuing with that notion.
The notion that continues to be discussed is the existence and issue of race outside of camming.
By continuing to nullify people's experiences with the notion that racist abuse in camming can be quantified to other things that mostly are insults and suggesting that anyone who feels racialized needs to "work harder", you guys detract from the seriousness of racism as a social construct and minimize it to people saying mean things when it's deeper and more significant than that.
You and everyone else here participating that's doing that.
It'd really be one thing if you and other people were solely contributing your experiences rather than debating people's experiences and responding with the same things such as "x doesn't exist/doesn't matter/is the same as y." The former is not what you guys are doing.
People are sharing very painful, personal experiences and realities and you guys are trying to detract from what they're saying. It may not be your intention, but you are.
And rather than continuing to do that, it'd be best to just stop. It's doing nothing more than adding hostile tension to this thread and making it uncomfortable for those of whom thought this would be a safe space to share things. THAT's why people have said they don't want to contribute here. THAT's why people feel like white women and white passing/light skinned women have no place here. Because the consistent presence is to argue about shit. Not much positive beyond that. You're trying to nullify and minimize a perspective/reality and experience rather than/more than being supportive and sympathizing. It's seriously hurting people and shunning them away and NOBODY's owning up to that. They're just continuing to hurt people without regard for how it affects others and, when faced with the fact that they're doing that, either responding with the equivalent of "I don't care how what I said makes you feel. I just agree to disagree." or not saying shit and thanking a post by someone else who says the former.
scarletl
10-07-2014, 06:25 PM
I wonder how many ladies in here who use their talents for certain fetishes feel about tools they use to fetishsize race in their cam shows? Example: BBC, SPH (specifically SPH with Caucasian males) (BBC in terms of both Caucasian and African-American clients) and Big Black Cock strap ons that are used in their sessions for Caucasian clients. Do you feel that it's just merely a fetish, or is it deeper? Do you ever feel like you're doing a form of exploitation every time you do a race focused session? I'm curious because I know quite a few ladies who've spoken here that they don't "see" it in cam, yet they perform these fetishes for their customers. Perhaps they are doing it and not realizing it? In my defense my cam character will be "racist" for money (in a show) or do a race-focused session because my customers get off on it and I'm getting paid to do it. I wonder if other ladies think the same?
My thinking is, if you don't see color, or don't really suffer from racism, oppression, etc, what do you think of the customers that bring it to your sessions? Example: "Hey white bitch, suck my BBC!" or "Mistress, I want to be fucked with your big black strap on cock." or, "You're a Nubian Goddess and I need you to humiliate my tiny white cock and destroy my ass with your black strap on." I feel like even if you were the least racist person in the world, because you are in this industry, you cannot avoid it. If you don't bring it up, a customer will in some way, shape or form. We cannot change them after all and we are in the business of giving them what they want in exchange for currency.
I started as a domme before being a general cam girl and dommed for 4 years (still do now on the side) and I had at least 3-4 guys a night coming to me and asking me to talk about how I wanted BBC and how their small 2 incher was so inferior to a real BBC. Some guys asked me to make them wank over BBC porn and so on.
I have been asked tonight and several times before to do racial humiliation, which I firmly say no to. It's not a fetish I'm willing to cover, despite how much money is involved for me.
Will you do racial humiliation?
I'm not against it, I just know I would not be able to do it and look comfortable or feel it.
Kudos for your professional cam behavior though. I like your mindset.
LaPetiteVierge
10-07-2014, 06:29 PM
No we aren't. It has been said in here many times people that are white or have white features do better in camming which simply isn't true. No one said racism doesnt exist but it takes more than a certain race to make it in the adult industry.
I can't tell you how it is as a black woman in this industry. I can tell you how it is on my end and looking white hasn't made it any easier. Racism exists for everyone, that's just a sad fact of life.
I bring up hard work because it's ignorant to say because someone is light they will do well. Camming is based on more than just looks and always will be. If this is a thread about race than all opinions should be respected. No one seemed to care when a couple white performers said they were offended, they were told to get over it. That should apply to anyone that has an issue with what any of us say.
I never said anyone said "racism doesn't exist".
All opinions are accepted, but don't let your opinion be a refutation of other people's experiences and realities. You can't say what it's like to be a non-white person in this industry. You don't have that experience. You don't have that reality. You've been saying "hard work" and "it doesn't matter if you're white or not" for pages now. We've got it. Your opinion is that all it takes to make money is to work hard and get over it. You don't have to keep saying it repetitiously.
LaPetiteVierge
10-07-2014, 06:36 PM
Matter of fact, do what you want. It doesn't matter anyway. I won't police anybody here.
http://diaryofablackcamgirl.tumblr.com/
Here's an interesting Tumblr page. I'm only on page one, but the mentioning of ashiness has me dying.
scarletl
10-07-2014, 06:41 PM
I think what Jane is trying to say (correct me if im wrong)
Is that it can come across as a little disregarding when it's assumed that white girls are more successful due to their skin colour. Because what that does is show ignorance towards real hard graph. Camming does not come easy to white girls. I agree that as a whole white girls appear to be more popular and at the top. But there is still so much struggle there and hard working hours.
There is so much to be taken into account as to why everybody has different opinions. For example I live in the UK and I am white. Racism in the UK and 'white privilege' in the UK is so so so different to the USA. So I have not witnessed it. And because I am white I have not experienced the kind of racism you have.
Although I can take it on board and listen. Doesn't mean I'm going to take on board your way of thinking. Because I have my own views on white privilege.
LaPetiteVierge
10-07-2014, 06:54 PM
I think what Jane is trying to say (correct me if im wrong)
Is that it can come across as a little disregarding when it's assumed that white girls are more successful due to their skin colour. Because what that does is show ignorance towards real hard graph. Camming does not come easy to white girls. I agree that as a whole white girls appear to be more popular and at the top. But there is still so much struggle there and hard working hours.
There is so much to be taken into account as to why everybody has different opinions. For example I live in the UK and I am white. Racism in the UK and 'white privilege' in the UK is so so so different to the USA. So I have not witnessed it. And because I am white I have not experienced the kind of racism you have.
Although I can take it on board and listen. Doesn't mean I'm going to take on board your way of thinking. Because I have my own views on white privilege.
The thing is that no one in this thread has even said white women are more successful due to their race/skin color. We've acknowledged that it takes hard work in the end of all ends. People have professed their own success despite their race, but that's been it.
The original post had a conversation in which someone not registered to this forum said that. Responding to that once is enough. Reiterating it makes it easily get interpreted as one not reading ANYTHING anyone has said. A lot of us had said we don't agree with the order in the original post, me included. However, it's evident that race matters, that there's preferences for other races, and all these things. There's been literal verifiable data to support that.
Either way, it doesn't matter if there's agreement or disagreement, but the way the conversation is directed, it nullifies shit. I'm not the only one who feels that way. It's been said in here. But people won't even ACKNOWLEDGE how uncomfortable they're letting other people feel, let alone sympathize.
It's a non-issue now though. I'm no longer concerned and I'm ready to move on with the conversation.
JaneBurgess
10-07-2014, 07:16 PM
You are 100 percent correct in what you stated. It's been stated on here plenty that "White women are the highest valued sex worker" and that having white features is a plus in the industry. Anyone can go back and read those comments. Those are the comments that offended some of the performers.
I think what Jane is trying to say (correct me if im wrong)
Is that it can come across as a little disregarding when it's assumed that white girls are more successful due to their skin colour. Because what that does is show ignorance towards real hard graph. Camming does not come easy to white girls. I agree that as a whole white girls appear to be more popular and at the top. But there is still so much struggle there and hard working hours.
There is so much to be taken into account as to why everybody has different opinions. For example I live in the UK and I am white. Racism in the UK and 'white privilege' in the UK is so so so different to the USA. So I have not witnessed it. And because I am white I have not experienced the kind of racism you have.
Although I can take it on board and listen. Doesn't mean I'm going to take on board your way of thinking. Because I have my own views on white privilege.
LaPetiteVierge
10-07-2014, 07:21 PM
You are 100 percent correct in what you stated. It's been stated on here plenty that "White women are the highest valued sex worker" and that having white features is a plus in the industry. Anyone can go back and read those comments.
Most people have said Asian women are "most valued". I said I think white women are considered more attractive (and therefore make more money) than black women and I think some people may have said that as well, but that's probably the most agreement I've seen.
You can link me to where anyone said that they were the highest valued ones though.
JaneBurgess
10-07-2014, 07:26 PM
You posted that and then there were other comments talking about white women and lighter skinned women having it easier. I respect threads on race but I dont respect anyone that thinks another race has it easier because they are lighter. That's just ignorant to not include in other factors as well.
White women are the highest valued sex worker. Thereafter are Asian women, Latina women, any Brown woman of color (Arab, Punjabi, Indigenous, Multiracial, light to medium brown-toned visual minorities). Then the bottom tier is Black women.
Black women are ranked in value by complexion with lighter skintones ranking highest and darker, deeper skin tones ranking at the bottom.
The more indistinguishable and racially ambiguous a girl is, the higher she's valued for being exotic.
The more White passing you are, the higher you are ranked in value.
Black women with natural hair, especially in tighter and more coiled textures, are low ranking.
Most people have said Asian women are "most valued". I said I think white women are considered more attractive (and therefore make more money) than black women and I think some people may have said that as well, but that's probably the most agreement I've seen.
You can link me to where anyone said that they were the highest valued ones though.
LaPetiteVierge
10-07-2014, 07:35 PM
You posted that and then there were other comments talking about white women and lighter skinned women having it easier. I respect threads on race but I dont respect anyone that thinks another race has it easier because they are lighter. That's just ignorant to not include in other factors as well.
White women are the highest valued sex worker. Thereafter are Asian women, Latina women, any Brown woman of color (Arab, Punjabi, Indigenous, Multiracial, light to medium brown-toned visual minorities). Then the bottom tier is Black women.
Black women are ranked in value by complexion with lighter skintones ranking highest and darker, deeper skin tones ranking at the bottom.
The more indistinguishable and racially ambiguous a girl is, the higher she's valued for being exotic.
The more White passing you are, the higher you are ranked in value.
Black women with natural hair, especially in tighter and more coiled textures, are low ranking.
I posted various statistical data that support the notion that white people, at the very least, have advantages and benefits that non-white people do not. If you choose to ignore it, that's on you.
I don't get why you're copy pasting the original post which is from a conversation I had in which the person I spoke with (someone who is not a member of this forum) made those points, not me. I stated that in the original post for there to be no confusion, but I guess you didn't read that.
LaPetiteVierge
10-07-2014, 07:45 PM
Dr Michael Lewis, from Cardiff University’s School of Psychology and lead of the study, said that existing explanations of interracial marriage based on racial, economic or social factors were unable to explain the asymmetries.
The study, involving 40 undergraduate students, collated ratings of attractiveness of faces of 600 opposite-sex faces categorised by their race – black, white and Asian.
The students, aged between 18 and 30, were also of these three ethnicities.
Black male faces, on average, were rated as most attractive, followed by white faces and then Asian, while – for females – Asian faces were seen as the most attractive on average, followed by white and then black faces.
(source for the above (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/cardiff-university-scientists-reveal-role-2035728))
(link to actual study (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0031703))
justanothercamgirl
10-07-2014, 07:54 PM
It's a non-issue now though. I'm no longer concerned and I'm ready to move on with the conversation.
Where shall we go now? I only ask because maybe if we clarify the direction of where you'd like the conversation to go from this point forward it might make it easier to stop all the backtracking over-ground we've already covered. :)
Its your thread. You can define the where-to-next. ;)
LaPetiteVierge
10-07-2014, 08:05 PM
Where shall we go now? I only ask because maybe if we clarify the direction of where you'd like the conversation to go from this point forward it might make it easier to stop all the backtracking over-ground we've already covered. :)
Its your thread. You can define the where-to-next. ;)
I'd really love it if more people shared their experiences. All people. No matter who it is
JaneBurgess
10-07-2014, 09:18 PM
I read it and saw other responses as well. This is about race and camming I thought. Not sure why if anyone brings up camming is more than race we are accused of being off topic. Did this change from the original topic?
I posted various statistical data that support the notion that white people, at the very least, have advantages and benefits that non-white people do not. If you choose to ignore it, that's on you.
I don't get why you're copy pasting the original post which is from a conversation I had in which the person I spoke with (someone who is not a member of this forum) made those points, not me. I stated that in the original post for there to be no confusion, but I guess you didn't read that.
Heid009
10-07-2014, 09:48 PM
I'm not in the USA, but this has been true in my country, for me.
2. Visibly white people (i.e. white passing people) benefit from white privilege even if their name is a non-white name.
*I've never ever had positive experiences of clients finding out I'm mixed - it's only ever lost me money or been a non-issue. So I keep it 'secret'.