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MrMike1952
10-05-2014, 07:29 PM
Another factor is who the police regard as their constituents. Most (not all, but most) cops, in my opinion, believe that their role is to "protect and serve." But who do they protect and who do they serve. When they view an individual as a citizen to be protected and served, they treat that citizen with a reasonable degree of respect. When, on the other hand, they see someone as a threat to those they are trying to protect, they have a tendency to react with hostility and fear to those individuals. I think this is a major factor in the tragedies we have seen lately.

Racism thus comes into play when the police, consciously or subconsciously, use race to help identify the group to protect.
Mike


It's such a dicey proposition when dealing with cops. I've had great interactions with them and I've also been illegally maced by them! I have no axe to grind as my father was a sheriff and I was absurdly trusting and loyal to the LE community. But as I got out of his community, I've been treated differently, heard the stories of friends including cop friends, state trooper friends, etc. Pulled over doing the speed limit for no reason. Calling for help with an abusive neighbor and telling the officers all he had yelled at us only to have the officers question if his degrading statements were true. Getting mean mugged by cops in Manhattan as I'm on my way to do laundry. Some of these fuckers truly do look to START a fight. They weren't disrespected, they are predators. The good officers are working in a system that punishes them instead of promoting and rewarding them. It's a sad state of affairs we as a community need to better on.

SnuffleUffleGrass
10-06-2014, 08:22 AM
Another factor is who the police regard as their constituents. Most (not all, but most) cops, in my opinion, believe that their role is to "protect and serve." But who do they protect and who do they serve. When they view an individual as a citizen to be protected and served, they treat that citizen with a reasonable degree of respect. When, on the other hand, they see someone as a threat to those they are trying to protect, they have a tendency to react with hostility and fear to those individuals. I think this is a major factor in the tragedies we have seen lately.


I agree with this. In fact I've been annoyed during police stops because they treat me as if I am completely non-threatening & it offends my pride. NOT that I want to have a hard time but I feel like they view me as a totally weak human being.

On the series "The Wire" the cops use the slang term "taxpayer" to differentiate between crime victims that are a priority and .....crime victims that are not. In essence it's a reminder that taxpayers are "entitled" to protection/service but anyone outside of that deserves no respect, which is not true.

Aniela
10-06-2014, 10:58 AM
On the series "The Wire" the cops use the slang term "taxpayer" to differentiate between crime victims that are a priority and .....crime victims that are not. In essence it's a reminder that taxpayers are "entitled" to protection/service but anyone outside of that deserves no respect, which is not true.

Well, given that they are paid w/ taxpayer $$$ … I don't see how it's a much different mentality than when we ignore customers at work who refuse to pay us. Is it right? No … but I can see where they would bristle at that. I am guessing they are talking abt communities w/ a higher % of illegals? Not trying to poke the hornet's nest w/ that question, just asking bc I have nvr seen this show.

SnuffleUffleGrass
10-06-2014, 11:13 AM
Well, given that they are paid w/ taxpayer $$$ … I don't see how it's a much different mentality than when we ignore customers at work who refuse to pay us. Is it right? No … but I can see where they would bristle at that. I am guessing they are talking abt communities w/ a higher % of illegals? Not trying to poke the hornet's nest w/ that question, just asking bc I have nvr seen this show.

Well to elaborate- the show is set in the slums of Maryland (near Washington DC) and most of the urban crime is perpetrated by drug sellers. To me it seemed that the cops have a built in loathing of the people they pursue because 1) violence is a given in the drug game and 2) none of the players in drug trafficking/selling are the type to ever want to work a "regular" job, pay taxes, follow laws, etc.....

Of course the other thing going on is- if the cop feels you personally have never done anything to "help him out" (i.e. pay taxes to pay his wage/pension) he is less than thrilled to be doing anything helpful for YOU- it's the classic human sentiment of "What do I get out of this?"

That's all an oversimplification- the show "The Wire" shows cops and detectives forming normal/fair relationships with "street" people they need to deal with. It's not all billy club beatdowns and "StarLight Rides."

Disclaimer- my overall favorable view of cops comes from knowing cops and ex-cops as friends, and having personally benefitted from their assistance. One has to know how to deal with the police as to not "step in it" during encounters. BUT we are so fortunate to have functional police services in the US.....The police in my parent's home country are never ever to be trusted. No one goes to them for anything important. Sorry it's the ugly truth.

MrMike1952
10-06-2014, 12:19 PM
There is a big difference. The police are supposed to be public servants, hired to protect the interests of the entire community.
I don't think you owe anything to a customer who does not pay, any more than Starbucks is obligated to give away free coffee.


Well, given that they are paid w/ taxpayer $$$ … I don't see how it's a much different mentality than when we ignore customers at work who refuse to pay us. Is it right? No … but I can see where they would bristle at that. I am guessing they are talking abt communities w/ a higher % of illegals? Not trying to poke the hornet's nest w/ that question, just asking bc I have nvr seen this show.

Kellydancer
10-06-2014, 01:25 PM
There is a big difference. The police are supposed to be public servants, hired to protect the interests of the entire community.
I don't think you owe anything to a customer who does not pay, any more than Starbucks is obligated to give away free coffee.

Honestly who is more important, an average working person or a drug dealer? I think some people have more worth than others. Someone who chooses never to work and pay taxes shouldn't expect the same amount of help and someone who does. My parents moved from a low income, high crime area that they loved (they had lived there when it was upper middle class and didn't see the progression). To be fair though my parents were friends with most of the cops in the area who had been cops for years and we got preferential treatment. They would often see me speeding and would just warn me, same as my parents. Low income neighbors would press ridiculous charges against us and the cops wouldn't file them (and most were silly). However if we pressed charges the cops would make sure they got it, and sometimes found more charges. Yes part of it was because they were my parents friends, but also because we all paid taxes while my low income neighbors (many were gangbangers, drug dealers and welfare queens/kings)didn't. People who pay taxes should matter more.

I now live in a better area and the cops here are known to be corrupt to some extent. A friend of mine is always arrested for things while others get less serious charges. Also, the police chief here is corrupt and is known to be in cahoots with the former Park District manager.

Optimist
10-06-2014, 01:28 PM
Sm1 previously mentioned prison guards -- this is a population where you will find a much higher concentration of the kind of ppl who should NOT be cops. They are typically the fruitcakes who couldn't get into the police academy bc they don't have the intelligence, or the social skills, or are otherwise not considered appropriate candidates for a police position, so they apply for prison guard positions … & get accepted bc, well, sm1's gotta do it. There isn't exactly an overwhelming flood of ppl lining up to be prison guards, they take who they can get.

Okay, that part had me :rotfl:

Optimist
10-06-2014, 01:48 PM
When, on the other hand, they see someone as a threat to those they are trying to protect, they have a tendency to react with hostility and fear to those individuals. I think this is a major factor in the tragedies we have seen lately.

Racism thus comes into play when the police, consciously or subconsciously, use race to help identify the group to protect.
Mike

Yep! Classism, ethnicity, lifestyle, all of that gets lumped in. If you are a woman driving alone at night coming from work, or worse, looking hot as if you claim your own sexuality and it has nothing to do with having a guy with you to impress--you are a target.
You're rocking a car they don't think you deserve given your age, race, or whatever else OR you look too poor to live therefore one douchebag wants to reign down upon you (pun intended) you place in the kingdom--it's ON!


I agree with this. In fact I've been annoyed during police stops because they treat me as if I am completely non-threatening & it offends my pride. NOT that I want to have a hard time but I feel like they view me as a totally weak human being.

On the series "The Wire" the cops use the slang term "taxpayer" to differentiate between crime victims that are a priority and .....crime victims that are not. In essence it's a reminder that taxpayers are "entitled" to protection/service but anyone outside of that deserves no respect, which is not true.

First: BRILLIANT show The Wire! I've seen EVERY episode!
Second: how would they know who's paying taxes and who isn't? What folks pay in various sales taxes and service fees exceeds what the corporate types, homeowners pay! The higher up you go and the more money earned through passive income, the less you pay in taxes for municipal services. They have it completely backward. Not to mention in places like Baltimore, NYC, etc the well to do are far more likely to have residency outside the city than inside. They're giving preferential treatment to folks who aren't paying them a dime.

Aniela
10-06-2014, 05:21 PM
@Snuffle thnx for the explanation -- I was worried abt getting a ration for my comment but I am not familiar w/ that show, so thnx for understanding. I will add that to my list of shows to catch up on. My relatives who are retired worked primarily in that area -- southeast DC & in PG county.

@Optimist -- I am confused as to what was funny abt my prison guards comment? I know we are not seeing eye to eye here but I certainly wasn't defending them, nor was I trying to dispute sm1 else's comment.

Also, are you saying that a brand new Lexus in a stone-cold ghetto area wouldn't look out of place? In an apt complex where pretty much all the inhabitants are on food stamps &/or working multiple jobs, you really wouldn't wonder how sm1 living there could afford a car like that? Or a rundown POS car cruising slowly thru a high-income area at 2am? Would you rather the cops check out ppl who look out of place (who may very well have just made a wrong turn & need directions) or let em slide purely to avoid offending them, even if they are canvassing the neighbourhood looking for a target? One of the girls here recently posted abt her home being broken into -- paying special attention to things or ppl that look like they don't belong is how cops prevent shit like that from happening.

Optimist
10-06-2014, 07:05 PM
@Optimist -- I am confused as to what was funny abt my prison guards comment? I know we are not seeing eye to eye here but I certainly wasn't defending them, nor was I trying to dispute sm1 else's comment.

Also, are you saying that a brand new Lexus in a stone-cold ghetto area wouldn't look out of place? In an apt complex where pretty much all the inhabitants are on food stamps &/or working multiple jobs, you really wouldn't wonder how sm1 living there could afford a car like that? Or a rundown POS car cruising slowly thru a high-income area at 2am? Would you rather the cops check out ppl who look out of place (who may very well have just made a wrong turn & need directions) or let em slide purely to avoid offending them, even if they are canvassing the neighbourhood looking for a target? One of the girls here recently posted abt her home being broken into -- paying special attention to things or ppl that look like they don't belong is how cops prevent shit like that from happening.

I'm laughing because of the way you wrote it. It was funny!

They are typically the fruitcakes who couldn't get into the police academy bc they don't have the intelligence, or the social skills, or are otherwise not considered appropriate candidates for a police position, so they apply for prison guard positions … & get accepted bc, well, sm1's gotta do it.

I would not make any presumptions about a brand new Lexus in a stone cold ghetto or the reverse situation of seeing a beaten up car in an expensive neighborhood. It's waaaay too little info to go on a witch hunt. That's life, people who do any and everything from live beyond their means to driving a nice car to the ghetto where they have family, friends, their favorite store, collecting rents, running their business--those ideas are just off the top of my head. What doesn't belong is not about something so flimsy and circumstantial as what car you see in what neighborhood.
A cop can't be so paranoid, classist, or racist to immediately jump to conclusions. Ordinary cops, traffic cops, cops on the beat--not detectives act on their personal agendas everyday and many have NO connection to looking for a suspect. At least detectives, at their best, actually gather plenty of info before acting. Low level cops are in no position to jump to massive snap judgements like the one you were suggesting. That's a good way to alienate the neighborhood residents you are paid to PROTECT. Observation is fine, rolling up on someone because in 2 seconds you've decided they "don't belong" when every citizen has the right to free run of the city's public areas, that includes streets, sitting parked,etc.

Optimist
10-06-2014, 07:13 PM
(contd) In essence what you are describing are class or race police. It may be common to approach cars with no cause and make it up later but it's not legal or okay. There's towns in Jersey for instance that had unwritten policies of stopping any black person that came into town because they are automatically suspicious....to a racist. Nevermind the illegal activity by the white residents, they just made their numbers by policing racially. If you are not acting suspiciously, you should not be harrassed. Period. No matter how high rent or low rent your car because you have the right in America to buy whatever car you damn well please and go wherever you damn well please. Policing is not about fantasizing what's in every person's mind, assuming they are lost and asking intrusive questions of those who didn't request help or assuming they are casing the neighborhood and you can prevent it. Once a crime is committed, gather facts and search, but that...is just harrassment and the definition of living in a police state.

Aniela
10-06-2014, 10:54 PM
(contd) In essence what you are describing are class or race police. It may be common to approach cars with no cause and make it up later but it's not legal or okay. There's towns in Jersey for instance that had unwritten policies of stopping any black person that came into town because they are automatically suspicious....to a racist. Nevermind the illegal activity by the white residents, they just made their numbers by policing racially. If you are not acting suspiciously, you should not be harrassed. Period. No matter how high rent or low rent your car because you have the right in America to buy whatever car you damn well please and go wherever you damn well please. Policing is not about fantasizing what's in every person's mind, assuming they are lost and asking intrusive questions of those who didn't request help or assuming they are casing the neighborhood and you can prevent it. Once a crime is committed, gather facts and search, but that...is just harrassment and the definition of living in a police state.

So it's more important to NOT attempt to prevent a crime from happening, bc the act of questioning a person who looks out of place is inherently racist?

It kinda sounds like you're wanting it both ways -- first the cops are all too busy beating their wives instead of doing their jobs, but the cop who does stop a person who looks out of place -- w/ the intent of ensuring that person is not there looking for trouble -- only ever does it bc he's racist. Their job is to protect & serve. How exactly do you expect these guys to protect you, if you don't want to let them prevent a crime from happening bc the person they would be questioning will be offended?

Aniela
10-06-2014, 10:59 PM
I'm laughing because of the way you wrote it. It was funny!

We do sm times find humour in the darkest places :D

I was dead serious when I wrote that, & we've been disagreeing so much that I wasn't sure if you were having a go at me. I actually read back over it thinking what'd I do?? My apologies.

Aniela
10-07-2014, 12:16 AM
There is a big difference. The police are supposed to be public servants, hired to protect the interests of the entire community.
I don't think you owe anything to a customer who does not pay, any more than Starbucks is obligated to give away free coffee.

Again, cops are paid by taxpayer $$. They don't do the job bc they have nothing better to do (at least the sane ones don't) -- & they can't live off air & stardust any more than a dancer or a Starbucks barista. You're in agreement that I & other dancers shouldn't be working for free, but as we often point out, dancers offer smtg that's essentially a luxury, not a necessity. Even w/ all the physical risks that come w/ dancing, most dancers are probably a lot safer at work than a lot of cops. So, yes, I can see where they would become frustrated at being put in harm's way for a population that demands their services but makes little to no effort to compensate them.

SnuffleUffleGrass
10-07-2014, 10:54 AM
I also need to point out that cops are stone cold cynics aside from being exposed to the absolute worst that people can do to each other. This is why they treat everyone like liars no matter what is going on in an encounter, and are often rude. IMO cops and detectives have to have a hard shell as human beings to process the job they do.

BTW I need to remind everyone that cops and firefighters have a higher rate of catching infectious diseases from people they deal with (aka why they have mesh masks for spitting inmates and Taze people who are getting bitey or scratchy.) The average cop or firefighter is risking permanent issues for a lower than average salary and MAYBE a pension. I can kind of understand the jerk attitude.

LizzyBlare
10-07-2014, 06:24 PM
I may get some flack for this, but I have to say, I don't like cops. Not a single one. I don't necessarily hate them all, so don't get me wrong. And I'm sure there are some cops with a semblance of a conscience. But when you have racial profiling, police brutality, drug trafficking and cops turning a blind eye to crimes based on who the person is, it's hard to have sympathy. Why don't these "good" cops out their rotten, corrupt colleagues?

simone87
10-07-2014, 06:27 PM
^ because they get punished for it, or silenced and ignored and a lot of the time i think a lot of cops start out "good" but then become corrupted and hardened.

Aniela
10-07-2014, 07:58 PM
This ^^^^ is a lot of it.

I linked an article earlier in this thread abt a former colleague of my relatives from DC, who got jail time for shooting two ppl in FL. In my relative's own words the guy should have gone to jail a long time b4 that happened -- most of the ppl who worked w/ the guy hated him. Unfortunately there is a lot of politics among cops -- just like any bureaucracy. In this guy's case it was just a matter of finding the opportunity to get rid of him. For sm reason he was given the option to simply resign -- I can't speak to the why, bc I don't know. That he was able to resign was why he was able to get hired elsewhere, since getting fired from one dept usually prevents you from getting hired by others.