View Full Version : Men's Rights Activists
Kellydancer
01-17-2015, 11:21 AM
The main problem I have w/ your posts here is that you are displaying the exact behaviours I bolded, & which you claim to hate so much. You're the one making it all abt how 'OMG, everyone who ISN'T a white male has it sooooooooo horrible, white males couldn't possibly know what REAL suffering is bc they are white+male & they all have all the control' You're the one making it a 'whose life sux worst' contest & in the process you are marginalising the real problems that white men face -- I refer you again to ScarletKitten's list. You are the one saying these problems don't exist, thus saying those problems are not real. You are like the opposite side of the same high&mighty patriarchal coin -- literally mirroring that 'my position & my suffering are inherently more important & real than yours bc I'm _______ & you're ______' mentality. It's just as pointless & disgusting coming from you as it is from any white male, & it's why ppl are having a hard time taking you seriously in this thread.
That was my problem too. No one is saying sexism and racism never existed, but rather that it can happen to anyone. For example, I grew up in an area that went from majority white to majority black and encountered severe racism. I was called honky, had rocks thrown at me for being white, lost scholarships at school because of it. My suffering maybe not as severe as many others but it existed. The thing is when a minority (any race, gender, religion whatever)becomes the majority they push their people.
Tourdefranzia
01-17-2015, 11:48 AM
Mostly I just wanted to say 1980s Burt Reynolds movies are fucking hilarious, and body hair on men needs to come back into style.
Come to Portland, OR. Apparently the Sasquatch look is all the rage here. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/12/how-straight-world-stole-gay-the-last-gasp-of-the-lumbersexual.html
Sorry for the Threadjack. :)
ScarletKitten
01-17-2015, 07:47 PM
KittyHawk, I understand where you are coming from to a degree. Don't feel like you're not being heard. Because I hear you, and I understand. Anyone can be oppressed, anyone can suffer, anyone can get discriminated against, the list goes on. I've struggled with this subject matter for a while now, because I see & understand multiple sides to everything, or at least I try to the best I can.
Obviously we live in a male-dominated world. And we live in a mostly white-dominated world. Movies often portray white males & cater to a male audience. The sex industry is mostly geared towards satisfying males. Men get paid more than women in most industries (something I've only now come to terms with). It's generally more difficult being a female in this world, as it is generally more difficult being Black, Hispanic, Native, etc. in a mostly white-dominated world. So I understand your frustration. I went through that stage years ago. I was one of those pissed-off feminists who just saw the world as built to be a paradise for men, and let the women suffer. But that mindset was extremely harmful to my own psyche, and it was not the reality that I wanted to see anymore. I didn't see my own feminine power yet, and how beautiful and wonderful it is to be a woman.
But anyway, in order to avoid a further rant, I just want to say, that anything you focus on in this world, the world will keep showing you that thing over and over again. If you obsess about the color red, you will go outside and see red everywhere, because that is the color you're focused on. Same way with how we see the world. I see the world as imbalanced and chaotic, but it is trying to rebalance itself & come to a cosmic equilibrium. I feel the feminine power rising in the world every day. I also feel the tribal human spirit coming back to the forefront. The tribal spirit that wants to return to nature, and live like the Natives did before the Europeans/Brits arrived here. Anyway, I'm going off on a tangent now....
Point is, don't give up hope! Smile at the face of adversity.
kaninchen
01-20-2015, 02:46 PM
I think Kittyhawk makes a really relevant point to this thread, although it's a tricky one to explain. I see that it's been somewhat inflammatory, so I'm putting my kid gloves on. Bear with me!
It's true that there is no such thing as "reverse" racism or sexism. However, there is absolutely racial bias and sexual bias that impacts otherwise-privileged people in negative ways. The key distinction is that racism and sexism require the institutional support of society, whereas bias is the opinion held by individuals in the absence of said support.
As one example, we can examine racism as structural oppression of black people throughout the history of the US legal system. The Dred Scott v. Sandford Supreme Court case in 1857 held that people of African descent cannot be, nor were they ever intended to be considered so, citizens under the US Constitution. This landmark case is important because it shows how the racially-biased belief that "black people are inferior" manifested as racism because that belief became explicitly codified into law and its analysis. Similar to Dred Scott v. Sandford were the Jim Crow laws and the "stop-and-frisk" laws in NYC that were found to predominantly target black people and other people of color. (Stopping there for examples in the interest of brevity.) It is the aggregation of similar conditions that transforms racial bias into racism.
Ironically for this thread, it is this distinction between -isms and bias which makes MRAs come across as distasteful. Yes, sexual bias against men exists, but it nowhere near approaches the sexism that oppresses women, because an overt, overarching system for privileging women at the expense of men does not exist. There is no matriarchy!
We can, however, see patriarchy in many forms: the glass ceiling, the wage gap, the entitled attitude of customers who won't listen to you when you say, "You cannot touch me there," the underrepresentation of women in politics and government, the fact that women couldn't vote until 1920, the way sexual assault cases are handled in our legal system ("she was asking for it"), the fact that women as sex workers can get fired from vanilla jobs for our stripping/camming pasts, but have you ever heard of a man getting fired for visiting a strip club in college? and blah blah blah ... We all know this already!
And so on. That is sexism.
MRAs are arguing that the incidental offshoots of patriarchy are the same thing as sexism, which we know isn't true, or this thread wouldn't have been started.
ScarletKitten
01-20-2015, 05:44 PM
^^I understand your points, all very valid. However, the possibility still exists that people can be sexist against men, and racist against white people. I've seen both. Just because it's not the "norm" and because societal structures aren't built around it, doesn't mean it can't exist on a smaller scale.
kaninchen
01-20-2015, 06:07 PM
^^I understand your points, all very valid. However, the possibility still exists that people can be sexist against men, and racist against white people. I've seen both. Just because it's not the "norm" and because societal structures aren't built around it, doesn't mean it can't exist on a smaller scale.
Except that that's the opposite of my point. When you read, "sexism against men does not exist," do you interpret that to mean that bad things never happen to men on account of their sex?
ScarletKitten
01-20-2015, 06:32 PM
^^Bad things happening to men, and sexism against them, can be two different things. But they can also be the same.
Anyway, I've exhausted this thread. I try to see & understand the sides to all arguments. But extreme MRA's are just ridiculous to me. Regardless of the fact that men can experience sexism towards them and experience hardships because they are a man, creating a Men's Rights movement just makes me laugh. Oh well. Maybe I need to think about this subject more. Maybe not. Maybe it's time to let it go.
To tell you the truth, men who are TRULY confident in their own masculinity would NOT feel threatened by feminism. If anything, men should support and try to understand women more, instead of wallowing in their own "Oh I have to pay child support" or "I'm the disposable gender" or whatever issues MRA's have that they think they need a movement. The sexism they may face by man-hating women dulls in comparison to alot of serious issues women face. However, that's not the same thing as saying that sexism towards men does not or could not exist.
There are just too many grey areas in this subject. Nothing is black and white.
Anyway...I'm out this thread!
audrey_k
01-21-2015, 04:13 AM
The only time I've ever seen men's rights activists is for stupid things, like spreading their legs three feet wide on a crowded subway.
Nina_
01-24-2015, 08:56 AM
Men's rights activists. Ha. What, do they want MORE dollars to our cents? Men's rights activists are, IMO, like "white power" activists in that they're fighting for rights that they already have; or perhaps fighting to take more rights from the oppressed.
It's quite bothersome when people play the "everyone has to deal with racism" card. Sure, everyone of all demographics may deal with biases on a small scale. But racism is systematic; therefore, the people who are openly discriminated against based on race are the ones who are oppressed. Those are minorities. Look at a Sociology textbook or even political science and it woll explain that. This doesn't mean that individuals who are a part of the majority don't face struggles, but people of the majority group aren't born into "second-class" citizenship.
I'm also not thrilled with modern mainstream feminism, either. It has become more of a platform to bash men and to decide what the average, all-American, middle class woman thinks is OK to do with her body. What about WoC? Trans women? They seem to be left out very often.
Nina_
01-24-2015, 09:29 AM
I also can't with people who say they were denied a job because they're white. Is it so hard to fathom that a person of color may have actually been the right candidate for the job? Also, it's MUCH more difficult for a PoC to get the same job as a white person. If anyone wants to contest this, I implore you to google a study by U of Chi and MIT that showed major "biases" in jop applications with regard to race, and the study's disturbing results showed minorities to be at a clear and significant disadvantage.
White privilege does exist and I can't stand when whote people try to deny that. Just admit it. It's not a white person's fault that they were born white and thus born priveleged. But when you particpate in the perks of white privilege and deny its existence, you are adding to the problem.
So a men's rights activist would probably do the same - blame the fact that he wasn't hired for a job because a woman "took" it from him. Yet perhaps the female who got the job had better credentials. And more often than not, that woman is going to make less on the dollar than her male colleagues.
Kellydancer
01-24-2015, 11:42 AM
Actually being denied a job because someone is white and/or male happens a lot more than you think. I know of several cases where a less qualified person got the job because they were a minority or a woman (though I don't know many women like this). In one case, there were these cops who were cops a long time (over 20 years)and when the chief retired they all applied. Instead the racist mayor (he was racist)hired less qualified black cops who had been there longer and appointed one chief. In the Census they were adding scores to the black candidates to push them ahead of white candidates. Discrimination against all groups (including white men)does exist. I think it depends on the area and who is in charge. This area was majority black, maybe an area that was majority white would do the opposite.
Regarding feminism, I do think today's feminism has become something very offensive. I support women having the right to do with their bodies and having the right to work and not have to endure sexism and sexual harassment. What I don't support is how many bash men and how many believe women should have the right to have kids without being married then ask tax payers to pay for that choice. I firmly believe in most cases a child needs a dad. I know this isn't always possible (like he abandoned the child or died)but this movement where women decide to be single moms regardless of the dad is sick. I also believe the feminists are wrong when it comes to pornography and the adult industry. They claim women are being used but what if it's her choice? She's making her own money and that is what feminism is supposed to be. One of the latest views of NOW is to have unrestricted immigration, regardless of whether we pay or not and that is not a feminist view. That is in fact an anti American worker view. Not to mention that does hurt American women to allow everyone to come here.
Nina_
01-24-2015, 12:20 PM
The immigrant groups that are targetted the most by anti-immigration views also happen to be the racial groups that are already near the bottom of our socio economic scale here. A prime example is Mexican Immigration. People complain that the immigrants will steal their jobs. Really? The cheap manual labor that Mexican immigrants do is taking away jobs from Americans? Because so many Americans are not only lining up for, but getting turned away from labor jobs that require no education? Yeah right.
How about an F4 family visa from, say, the Phillipines. Do you know what the average wait is? About 20 years. Yes, that's right. Apply for Immigration in the Philippines and you'll be waiting a couple decades before your paperwork is even filed.
Whereas if you're European, or have a million dollars to bring here to invest, your wait time will be muuuch shorter.
Kellydancer
01-24-2015, 12:56 PM
We can't afford to allow in uneducated people. Many do require welfare and those who don't are taking jobs from our most vulnerable, which would be minorities. Immigration needs to be fixed where we only let in those who aren't coming to steal jobs or welfare. Most people who are complaining about Mexican immigrants are complaining about illegals. I don't care what race someone is, they need to come here legally and it's not a "right" to be here.
Nina_
01-24-2015, 02:01 PM
No, I think what we can't afford is to continue having such restrictive immigration laws. Especially since America was literally built upon immigration. And uneducated immigrants tend to have low-paying jobs so it is not expensive for us to allow uneducated immigrants into our country who are eager to work (thus stimulating our economy).
Immigrants do not steal jobs, any learned person across the political spectrum would most likely agree. Immigration actually creates jobs and increases revenue. They're only "illegal" because they didn't want to wait x amount of years for the expensive paperwork to finally be filed until they had a better quality of life. It's not like the majority of immigrants come here and sit on their asses (if they did, you wouldn't be complaining about them "stealing" jobs).
But I don't see how this ties into MRAs or feminism?
Kellydancer
01-24-2015, 02:13 PM
Immigrants do not steal jobs, any learned person across the political spectrum would most likely agree. Immigration actually creates jobs and increases revenue. They're only "illegal" because they didn't want to wait x amount of years for the expensive paperwork to finally be filed until they had a better quality of life. It's not like the majority of imimmigrants come here and sit on their asses (if they did, you wouldn't be complaining about them "stealing" jobs).
But I don't see how this ties into MRAs or feminism?
Actually they do steal jobs and I am a learned person. They may not steal from me but they do steal from others. I worked in restaurants where the staff was mostly illegals so they could pay them less than Americans. Construction used to be a high paying job until illegals took it over. There have been many studies that prove that in many cases they cost more than they pay in. Yes I would complain because they are here ILLEGALLY. If they want to come and provide a skill then they need to do it legally like other legal immigrants. Most of them never filled out applications they decided to try to get across the border. . If they want to come and provide a skill they need to do it legally. Otherwise, they don't belong here. Here's another one: . This stupid bitch came here for welfare and doesn't even speak English. We don't need people like this. From my state's welfare site:
You do not have to be a citizen or a legal immigrant to get Moms & Babies.
You do not need to have a Social Security number to get Moms & Babies.
Nope don't want to support them and don't want people here illegally. Come legally and that's another thing. It shouldn't be a feminist issue but NOW made it one.
Nina_
01-24-2015, 02:35 PM
http://economics21.org/commentary/immigrants-don’t-take-jobs-they-make-them
http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/left-and-right-agree-immigrants-don-t-take-american-jobs-20130322
http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-30/immigrants-don-t-take-jobs-away-from-americans-fed-study-finds.html
Seriously, they don't steal jobs.
I think you're assuming all/most immigrants are going to get pregnant and on government assistance, which is not the case and doesn't negate the fact that immigration reform would benefot the economy.
I could go further into this but I'm not seeing where it ties into the gender issues or even race issues discussed here. But you brought it up so you tell me. it seems as though this conversation is going nowhere. I'm not going to change your opinion, and you are not going to change mine (or the facts).
Kellydancer
01-24-2015, 06:09 PM
Actually I don't think all or most immigrants will go on assistance but many do and illegals overwhelmingly do. If someone is here legally, works hard and knows English I have no issue with them. People who come here and end up on welfare (and many do both legal and illegals)then nope, don't want them here. If they offer a skill or will start a business or something like that then yes they can come. Not everyone should be allowed to immigrate here.