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Morrigan
03-11-2015, 08:06 AM
Trans-women activist are gunning to be include in other women facilities......Women clinics, Domestic violence shelters,

This one I dont see how that could be an issue 99.9% of the time- again... Once someone is undergoing hormone replacement - the " male strength" is totally gone within a few months, " male labido" also gone, and external reproductive parts stop working - and again- when it comes to domestic violence, abuse rape, general assault - we get it just as bad, if not sometimes worse because once again, Trans persons just venturing outside do have the possibility of being attacked for no other reason than being a trans person. Even those of us whom are very very very passable if not more attractive and feminine than many cis women still get it because we some how threaten the masculinity of guys somehow by being attractive but not cis and it pisses them off >.>

sadly though its costly and no not everyone was lucky enough to be born with a genetic template that can feminize easily- best results start with youth - the earlier ( idealy mid teens ) one starts HRT the more natural they turn out since thats the age where certain gender features form with muscle and bone mass - problem being its still such a taboo thing, and were really not much beyond the discrimination, misinformation that was around Pre-stonewall. So those from smaller more isolated areas, or heavily socially conservative areas, religious areas and so on, or of older generations in which you DID just shut up and try to pretend to be what society saw... dont have that luxury of an early start or available to get resources.

most of us are already ashamed and feel guilt for even existing - and with so much mis-information being thrown around, or just ignorance in general ( not going to flat out say bigoted - because there is that too, but most cases I think are people in large really and honestly do not understand, have never really been around talked to a trans person or really try and learn ) I mean alot of people still want to lump transsexual individuals ( IE those transgendered to the point of transitioning ) with other things such as transvestite ( vestite as in vestments - clothing) drag queens , sissies and such which - no those are quite different things-

So its always refreshing to know all our self loathing, insecurities, vulnerabilities and other forms of self debasing and shame - are totally the proper way to think and feel about ourselves because apparently everyone else feels that way about is too right?

again this is why I LOVE people actually taking the step and asking questions, I mean ( anything ) no matter how silly or graphic it might be - and without feeling like they are going to offend me by asking because- you know what? if nobody does then how does anyone move forward, more over if nobody understand these things and has a better grip on situations how can anyone expect to also rationally adress the social/public issues without knee jerk reactions based on ignorance, and misinformation and assumptions?

Kellydancer
03-11-2015, 10:06 AM
I've been reading about this story and other trans issues for the past few days. The person in question isn't even a trans-woman, he's a sissy boy. His facebook was posted and he talked about liking to be a sissy slut.

Anyways concerning the PF issue. I kind feel like PF was in the wrong. No where do they state that pre-op trans-woman or someone who identities as a woman can enter women restrooms. I agree with Yvette that they should have it stated in their contract and posted in the bathroom. If I was in the bathroom I would've freaked out if someone looking like a male entered. I wouldn't have went around telling people about it because I'm not that type of person but in the same breathe I definitely would've wanted to know that someone who looks like a man can enter the restroom of women if he feels he is one even if he's not dressed or transitioning to one.

But this issue is much larger than just this one PF or PF's in general. Trans-women activist are gunning to be include in other women facilities......Women clinics, Domestic violence shelters, Women grants/scholarships/business loans. This doesn't just stop at PF.

Yeah to me the more I read this person was trying to pull an agenda that wasn't even transgendered. The person is obviously a man not trans. The more I read the more disgusting it becomes. Yes if this person had entered the room when I did I would have complained.

Morrigan
03-11-2015, 10:16 AM
thats a sad reality though too.. alot of people dont separate these things: Transgender/sexual persons, like me, transitioning- living normal lives, and all the issues that come with it often get mixed with the other " kinks" and such.

transwomen dress like women. drag queens dress as women, sissies dress as women therefore all transgendered people are sissies- You should see my chat logs from SM or messages I get on twitter and such. SOOOOO many guys wanting " sissy training" or assuming " I am/was" a sissy , and so on..

they really don't see the difference between living gender identity - orientation- and fetish

as a cam girl? its not better: because my category, vast majority of us are the real thing....but yes I can be next to a person doing it as a fetish thing- being a CD/Sissy .. and cam sites dont differentiate those so no shock it sorta cements it in minds that they are related things

( I admit I really have a distaste of that whole fetish, because the fall out is pretty damaging to making progress .. its sorta the same I get from many of my gay friends whom- want to prove their just normal people - and want to educate and show that. But to them, the really really loud and aggressive queens and such do alot of damage to that by basically wanting to hypercharge and highlight the " different" part"

Kellydancer
03-11-2015, 10:27 AM
I danced with someone who was transitioning and they looked like a woman. I think they finished the process though not completely sure (topless club)so I definitely think they should use the women's bathroom. This one though was not that, just using an agenda to get his kicks and it's a shame for those who are really trans.

rickdugan
03-11-2015, 10:44 AM
Also, can we stop bringing kids into this argument? There are adult cisfemales who abuse female children and adult cismales who abuse male children.


And, I'm sorry, but all the people saying "Oh, we're just gonna let anyone walk into the women's changing room if they say 'I feel like a woman'" - come on, now... Do you really think that's how it went down? Look up a picture of the transwoman in question and she comes up as obviously dressing as a woman - therefore, like Morrigan said, not making it safe/welcome for her to use the men's changing room anymore. They definitely look like a "drag queen," couldn't "pass" as a "real" woman... but certainly wearing women's clothing and heels. Obviously putting their purse away. They didn't walk into the women's changing room in a suit and tie and week-old beard.... I highly doubt the protocol for this situation was that they walked into PF looking like a totally normal heterosexual man and said "I feel like a woman on the inside, so you need to grant me access to the women's dressing room" and PF just went "Ok!" without any further questioning and investigation.

I mean... let's really talk about "common sense" here. This was not some willy-nilly granting of rights to someone who wasn't even trying to live as a trans person being given immediate access to a women's dressing room. They are trying to live as a woman probably as much as they can right now, and I'm sure further questioning went into it. And the woman who was kicked out did not just ask a simple question one time and was immediately vilified. There's more to the situation/story here...

Planet Fitness' official transgender policy is as follows:

Our gender identity non-discrimination policy states that members and guests may use all gym facilities based on their sincere self-reported gender identity.

Who is going to be responsible for determining sincerity? For starters, in many gyms, including mine, the locker rooms don't require key cards to enter. That means that anyone can just walk into the locker room. Now in most places a male predator would fear the threat of an outcry if he tried to enter a women's locker room. But at Planet Fitness, an outcry about a seeming man trying to use the women's facilities won't be tolerated. ;)

But let's even take the most optimistic view, as unlikely as this is to play out in real life, that gym desk clerks will both be vigilant and make a good faith effort to determine whether a claim is "sincere." Is the clerk expected to be a mind reader? Even if the clerk is using apparel as one of the measuring sticks, which is what happened at PF in Midland, what would prevent some sick predator or other pervert from putting on women's clothes in order to gain access to the female locker room? Also, is the staff member really going to refuse a visitor who shows up in generic sweats, workout shorts, or even jeans and a t-shirt., and who is adamant about his/her gender self-identity?

To be crystal clear, my concern is not even so much about the legitimate transgender people who fear for their safety, but more about the ease of which a male predator could use an open door policy to gain access to female locker rooms. And let's be clear-eyed here about the existence of a lot of bad men out there. Sure sexual predators can come in all stripes and types, but the overwhelming majority of them are male.

And to Naida's point about children, of course we need to include them in the conversation. After all, children, including my own daughters, use gender specific locker rooms too.

Aurora_Sunset
03-11-2015, 11:01 AM
I just find this continued idea of claiming that trans-people should continue to sit in the corner as second-class citizens, because if we dare to grant them rights, sociopaths out there might try to take advantage, very unfair. As though that's their fault? They shouldn't ask for rights, respect, and equality because it would be the fault of their very existence and "audacity" to ask to be an equal human being, if we gave that to them and some wayward sickos abused the system? People can, and do, abuse anything. Yes, that's a concern, but that's a chink in an imperfect system - especially when it comes to new policies. But it's a poor excuse to basically indirectly blame the people the system is trying to grant equal rights to and therefore not give them any.

These arguments just sound eerily similar to people who decry strip clubs and porn for the degradation of society and marital fideltiy. It's the fault of our very existence. It's our insistence on being allowed to exist and conduct our business as normal that is shutting down chivalry, the "institution of marriage," and men's ability to behave themselves... They also sound very similar to the age-old arguments of: "Oh, if we let a man marry another man, what's next? He can marry a goat!?" and other such nonsense.

Every time a marginalized group has tried to step up in society, fear of the world going to hell in a handbasket and people abusing the new system without any boundaries has been used as a "rational" excuse for keeping things status quo. And yet, every single time these groups have busted through that and were granted their rights, the world hasn't ended yet... People adapt. Policies evolve. Issues are handled with sick individuals when they come up, the same way they are handled when people abuse any system. Things keep turning, but with more people not being second-class citizens and leading happy, safe, fulfilled lives. I just fail to see what's so scary about that.

Morrigan
03-11-2015, 11:06 AM
my gym I think at least has a good approach, and its simple..... things really don't happen openly in public view with crowds- but despite that, there is a staff member in each room ( though if they are short staffed said person may do patrols every few minutes - and Ive never seen said patrols laps longer than 15 min ) or if someone went in and hasn't come out in a decent amount of time. and Ive seen them in both the mens and womens locker room also checking under bathroom stall doors

this is to cut down o drug use/dealing etc - sex ( because orientation is different than gender identity ) and yes they have caught men AND women getting a little too lovie - and put the kabash on it.

so you know, just a " presence " and crowds are a major major deterrent thats very very easy to implement

in mine though, minors under 15 I believe are not allowed in the locker rooms - or use equipment and such outside of like treadmills or bikes - hence why they have a built in daycare like place ( which they also charge per hour so they make more money that way)




but yeah, I do want to clear up though, that no Im in no way supportive of system abuse- no matter what it is, be it abusing having kids for the free money off or is, playing " identity" cards to play into a fetish, or faking injuries to get compensation etc

my main thing Ive been going on about over the last few pages has more to illustrate and educate, and talk about issues and norms for actually transpersons, and what we go through and bring up where there is a ton of knee jerking reactions because again honestly? information isnt really out there unless you really go deep to look for it, and still a great deal gets confused or cross contaminated by again, fetishes and other things of those nature.


also this is very much part of the western dogma thing, plenty parts of the world have a celebrated 3rd gender, and or your culturally accepted for what you are, most of it still very strong in parts of asia - so its not that this is anything " new" there have been trans persons known and documented as long as we've had civilization and written language, historically speaking the vitriol and debasing is really only really been in place since the late dark ages

Optimist
03-11-2015, 12:57 PM
I apologize if my post came off harsh or condescending or as if I as calling people stupid. Yes, I waited to post my opinion until more "hard" facts were known, but honestly, I have been thinking the exact same thing since days ago when people started posting "slippery slope" arguments about how this is going to lead to completely male-looking men just saying "I'm a woman on the inside" and being granted access to wherever. From the beginning, I did not believe that a huge corporation would just make that decision in a split-second going off of someone's word and a 2 second conversation with an hourly employee. When people start decrying organizations over an assumption that no procedures were followed for something major, honestly, yes, I do think it's common sense to step back and say "wait a minute - do you really think that's the whole story?"

You're right, I waited to post about it until more info had come out because I knew if I said anything along the lines of "that's probably not totally how that went down," I would just be derided as not having proof. I probably could have worded it better, but I stand by the idea that there's always more to the story and that if something seems "ridiculous" or "over-the-top" it's probably because we're looking at a very slanted and shortened view.

Also, I will totally admit that I re-saw this thread shortly after this story appeared in my facebook feed and the harsh, hostile comments on it were just astounding and riled me up - far worse than anything that has ever been posted here on SW. But I took out my anger a bit here. I'm sorry for that.

:grouphug:


40967 40969

40968

Here is the transwoman in question. In the first 2 pictures, she's very obviously "done up" so I included the "less-girly" image that I could find as well. But even without the wig, they appear to be trying to be as feminine as they can pull off. There's certainly plenty of biological females out there who aren't super feminine or attractive. I probably wouldn't have even questioned it except to think that the woman next to me was "unfortunate-looking."

I can't speak for their female membership but I'd have no issue with that trans woman. She's clearly for real. I still say members should be given the heads up by management. They shouldn't have to learn about it through the grapevine. Personally, I change at home. I never cared for that much random nudity around me. I'm not even thrilled at work and I look away to maintain some boundary and dignity to others.

Djoser
03-11-2015, 04:18 PM
A little different twist on the subject.

We get a fair number of very masculine lesbians in the Key West clubs. Which isn't a problem for me or most of the dancers, but can sometimes be confusing when you are in the booth, you happen to glance at the door to the women's room right next to the booth and someone who sure looks like a guy waltzes right into the women's bathroom. Which also happens a lot for real, as a lot of guys (especially foreign guys) will either deliberately or through ignorance (and often extreme intoxication) will pull the same shit--like at least once or twice a night.

Some of these fucking guys want to argue about it, which would be a big mistake.

In the past years, I have yanked many a protesting man out of the women's room, but also twice yanked out two women. Many profound apologies, in one case I bought them a drink & apologized again when I brought it to them. Since they were trying very hard (with great success) to look like a guy, I didn't lose any sleep over it.

Djoser
03-11-2015, 05:03 PM
Also, the act of disagreeing, expressing an honest opinion, or maybe questioning the veracity of a news story...is not automatic proof of some sort of vile bigotry and hatred for people just trying to live their lives the way they want.

I wasn't there so cannot know whether the woman protesting that (whatever the proper term might be, but he sure looked like a big guy in drag to me) person trying to use the bathroom was out of control about it or not.

I never assume any corporation is going to act rationally. Look at how McDonalds handled that woman burning the flesh off her legs with the coffee.

I don't care what people do, how they dress, whom they fuck, or how they fuck each other. There are so many infinitely more important things to worry about. And I live in Key West--anyone who got hot & bothered about different dress or sexual/behavioral issues living here would go batshit crazy in a matter of days. I fucking love this island and the cultural diversity that is fostered here.

Jumping on peoples' asses about insensitivity, when they are maybe just reacting naturally to something outside of their experience, or discussing some celebrity who will never in a million years care what anyone posts on SW, can also be insensitive. You cannot enforce Free Thought or Correct Thinking. We do not want Mind Police here, and I will walk before that.

Also, none of us freely expressing our opinions here are the Enemy. So no need to make them enemies by reaming them out for simply expressing the same opinion most straight people are going to have, almost anywhere the subject is brought up, about very masculine looking people using the women's room. The people that REALLY scare me are people like these:



https://vimeo.com/80095508#at=5

Naida
03-12-2015, 11:42 AM
And to Naida's point about children, of course we need to include them in the conversation. After all, children, including my own daughters, use gender specific locker rooms too.

So what is being done to prevent cis pedophiles from abusing children in locker/bathrooms? Short of what Morrigan describes at her gym, which is extremely rare in my experience, nothing.

rickdugan
03-12-2015, 01:21 PM
So what is being done to prevent cis pedophiles from abusing children in locker/bathrooms? Short of what Morrigan describes at her gym, which is extremely rare in my experience, nothing.

Well, when you say pedophiles abusing children, what you really mean are grown men abusing boys, since this seems to be the overwhelming problem in this realm. And the honest answer is probably not enough. There are some sick fucks out there who do things like follow boys in bathrooms, drill holes in stalls, etc. I even recently read about one guy who actually crawled under the divider of a locked stall in a Walmart bathroom to get his hands on an 8 year old boy. It is both sad and sickening.

But I don't believe the answer is to give these same freaks access to little girls as well. Or to give freaks with girl fetishes access to them. Or give guys with voyeur issues access to little girls or to grown women for that matter. And even beyond outright assault, It's probably not a good idea to allow dudes to wave their dicks around in locker rooms with girls present either.

So I guess my stance would be that the existence of a garage fire at one house doesn't make it ok to light the farm next door on fire too. ;)

Naida
03-12-2015, 01:48 PM
I never thought I'd be arguing equality in quite this way, but... Frankly, if you believe that adult females do not abuse female children, you're delusional. It happens and if you're going to pretend that it doesn't, you may need to pack a bag and move to da Nile.

I'd really rather not have to put myself through the nauseating experience of having to Google female pedophiles who victimize little girls to prove that point.

I'm sorry for being so brash about that, but this is a gender issue, not a pedophile issue.

rickdugan
03-12-2015, 04:03 PM
Naida, I think I already acknowledged the fact that sexual predators come in "all stripes and types." Human beings are varied creatures, as we all know. But we also know that the population of convicted sex offenders is overwhelmingly male and that their victims are predominantly female. These facts aren't in dispute anywhere - they are well published and understood.

We obviously can't stop all crime all of the time. But businesses often adopt or support policies that deal with higher probability/higher risk issues. In this instance, one of the multiple goals in providing gender specific locker rooms and restrooms is to segregate the most likely perpetrators of sexual crimes (men) from the most likely victims of those crimes (females) while those females are most vulnerable and while temptations are high for potential male predators. Others may disagree, but this sounds like a good common sense policy to me.

Naida
03-12-2015, 10:09 PM
I'm sorry, but I do not believe that something as simple as a sign on a door offers protection. If it did, females of any age would not be victimized by men in locker/bathrooms. Yet they are, because a private place of any sort (no matter what stick figure hangs on the door) is what predators take advantage of. Sex segregation was born out of intergender modesty and, without some form of guard or attendant (who could be victimized themselves, mind you), has proven itself over and over again to be ineffective at providing anything more than the illusion of safety.

Having said that, I shall officially bow out of this discussion. I don't think there's much more I can add in a semi-mature way.

rickdugan
03-13-2015, 06:58 AM
I actually believe that gender specific areas are a significant deterrent for any opposite sex predator who fears detection. The practice makes everyone else in and around the segregated area part of the security apparatus, since anyone can raise the alarm simply because someone who doesn't seem to belong enters the area. Case in point is exactly what happened at Planet Fitness.

But we can agree to disagree on this. This is an emotional issue on all sides with no easy answers. I want to be clear that I am very sympathetic to what Morrigan and others are going through. I may not understand a lot about what makes transgenders think or feel the way that they do, but I firmly believe that no person should have to fear for his or her safety and dignity, regardless of how he/she is wired.

But I also believe that there are other ways to protect the safety and dignity of transgenders without trading off the safety and dignity of vulnerable women in the process. Please believe me when I say that I am the last person wishing to oppress or exclude anyone, but I simply cannot overcome my fears about having complete strangers with cocks and balls having unfettered access to the same rooms that my wife and and daughters are using toilets, showering and changing in. I happen to be a registered voter in one of the three states with so-called "bathroom bills" under consideration in the legislature and I'm sorry to say that, for all of the reasons discussed here, I am a supporter of the legislation and hope that it passes (which looks likely).

I also have to admit that I doubt that gender specific bathrooms and locker rooms are going away anytime soon. For starters, I don't think that building more shower and toilet stalls really alleviates the real and perceived safety concerns related to having strange men in close proximity to naked/vulnerable females. But even putting that aside, the expense, logistics and capacity issues that would arise in trying to convert all bathrooms to gender neutral formats would probably be prohibitive. In some places, you'd need to build a lot more bathrooms, particularly if you discontinued use of urinals and had to make stalls significantly more secure. Anything is possible I suppose, but I question how realistic this would really be.

But there are businesses out there that have already developed more nuanced ways of handling this and I hope that these models gain more traction elsewhere. For example, there are many places with both gender specific bathrooms and single serve "family bathrooms" that can readily be used by anyone with safety concerns. In fact, some of these single serve family bathrooms could probably be converted to "inclusive" bathrooms with a simple change to the signs. I was also a member of a gym in the northeast that had different gradations of locker rooms, including ones where kids were not allowed. Some variation of the multiple locker room approach, with appropriate disclosure to consenting adults, would probably work too. I am sure that there are other approaches out there as well.

Anyway, I've posted on this topic more than enough, so this is my final :twocents: on the matter and I do apologize if I caused any unintended discomfort in sharing my own sensitivities on this issue.

Morrigan
03-13-2015, 09:08 AM
nah everyone has their own sensitivities, insecurities, and latches onto ideas and concepts. Some times that's a good thing, sometimes that is little more than a band-aid covering a bigger, deeper issue, sometimes its just what someone knows and really can't/hasn't had exposure to so never had to really sit and look at/experience any other side of it. Sort of a thing that comes with being a human.

sadly however, the only thing that will ever go about to fix that is education/information - and such a simple act seems to be such a daunting or scary or taboo of a task for anyone to do, its easier to just ignore till something goes on, and or go overboard and be a zealot whom actually does more of a disservice because of a lack of tact, compassion, or understanding to the nature of themselves and others. Until that happens, people will be unsure, people will knee jerk, people will hang onto stereotypes and other misconceptions....

and to be honest.... we as a species still do that with ethnicity, with cultural variations, with age, with CIS-Gender, with social class statuses etc....this is before we even branch into anything falling under the banner of " xeno"


and one sad fact rick, and Im glad you said it : " I may not understand a lot about what makes transgenders think or feel the way that they do"

very few of us do as well, and were the ones living it.

When it comes to what makes us what we are, and also with orientation based things its a guessing game by large. Now YES there are examples in nature. Ducks for example - its a well documented thing too see a drake go through a moult and suddenly he wont grow the " curled" feathers on his tail, he stops making the crowing sound, stops mounting any females, and will collect things that are semi egg shaped and actually start brooding. the term actually is " transduck" - now on the other end I have 3 ducks by the way, and one of my females will mount and present herself to the other female, but freaks and gets really aggressive with the drake around them. I cant say if she's a transdrake or just lesduck - since she will still lay - these behaviors in nature, I mean beyond just ducks and into most species? seems to go hand in hand with population size and or resources IE seems like a natural tool to control breeding populations.

but what about in humans? well nobody wants to really look into that too much. if its like its " believed" to be in other animals? thats a reminder that we are just another branch of primates and animals too despite our fancy names for our behaviors and feelings... nothing humans hate more than realizing some of out quirks are common to other animals too.


thats not to say there isnt any work on it, but the topic is still one of hairpin triggers, and possible fallouts and few want to touch it. - there is some research going on with chimera-ism ( again the genetic condition where one is composed of two different sets of DNA IE- consumed twin in fetal state - retain and develop some organs and such with said sibling's DNA as opposed to your own ) Already they learned its waaaaaaaay more common than once believed. They also noted that it seems to effect women more. I believe the next step was to look at " life long/inborn " lesbians ( not bi, or those who just said screw men and went over or anything else) and seeing how their DNA is mapped and if they have more or less cases of this and such, then iirc they aim to move to trans women ( basically collect as much data as possible from as many groups as possible and look for similarities and differences and such etc, then move on with collecting other groups and so on.) but seeing anything from that I think is yeaaaaaaarrrrrsssss away if said research continues to get the funding at all.

what we do " know" is more or less loosely based on some pretty odd standards, usually dependent on how old you were when you started knowing ( not feeling, knowing) you were different/wrong.
from this they more or less have a few " ideas".

those inborn with it - like I fall under - having been aware as far as I know since I was 5. Speculated to be a actual physical difference that straddles the line,
I personally when I was getting CT scans and MRI and a few other diagnostics on my brains activity following what they thought was possibly seizures- or micro stroke: doctor thought it weird that my brain.. in shape, density, mass, developed characteristics in key areas, and even how the neurons communicated to what areas for things like speech and such - matched a Cis female brain, not a cis male brain
now? could I be a chimera and I happened to absorb a male twin at the wrong time and got the wrong hormone surges ? was it just a by default fluke that nature throws out at random due to certain factors like strife? - is it a self inflicted development? as we know we can alter the size and shape of out brain through developing certain skills ..... ( we dont know, nobody has really funded looking into this in the past)

how many cases that come on around puberty can be figured out? is that due to the same but just a difference in the receptors now that hormones are more active? is it a hormone imbalance? is it, like some of the " late onset" where it could be from trauma or nature vs nurture ?

sadly we dont know causes...because we dont want to be associated with animals, or we dont want to figure it out because of the fall out from one side or another, and this would also set a precedent by saying " well then if we look into this, then we have to look into orientation too! - which again that has its own set of knee jerking and questionable motives and such - so anything coming from study of anything can and will be skewed or rejected - or too quickly latched onto as truth/lies and so on.


All I CAN say, is when in doubt or curious or something.....ask them, talk to them, TRY to find an understanding or something thats relatable. Thats how we as a species learn. and grow.. and we'll never do that if nobody has the courage to do so. If there is any thing that holds us back as a species, its out inability or unwillingness to defeat ourselves in a meaningful way, or to challenge and question and ask- because were programmed largely not too anymore...its also easier to put a bandage over wounds and be hyper sensitive about things tied to ones baggage than to confront it, and carry forward. We are a really fucked up species.

but trust me, if anyone asked " hey morrigan, when/how did/do you,______ " I'll answer them regardless of how silly they fear it may be, or how intrusive they feel it might be, or if they worry that I'll be offended or not ( because I wont be) and there is also a lack of that in the world too.




on the matter at hand? I think I said what I needed too on security issues, and whats normal with a transperson and whats not, whats normal with humans and whats not: the only thing keeping these places unmonitored by staff is effort. Yes there is that whole thing with cost of " but then we need at least another person or two a shift to do this" which no, you dont really - arguing the money side of it is knee jerking a moot point when it comes to security. Ive seen people fucking in public bathrooms , be it mens or womens, be it hetero or not, iv e seen drug use in them. last year there was a guy trying to abduct little boys from the walmart restrooms not far from my house.

the thing is, there is a bigger issue over all. on these matters. and honestly the easiest, fastest way to put an end to them? keep these places staffed or at least patrolled and make it KNOWN clearly on a sign that its done. " my place does not do that" isnt really a excuse because if these places cared? they would in my opinion the only excuse they have is laziness kneejerking over gender identity, orientation, age etc is a red herring in the big picture - the true core is that regardless of who or what or where a person is, these are places everyone is at their most vulnerable while in public, and universal security is something EVERYONE deserves and there are easy ways to see to that that can go a long way

DreamsInDigital
03-14-2015, 12:34 AM
As others before me have pointed out, having a sign on the locker room door to designate gender doesn't stop any man from walking into the women's locker room if he really wanted to. As has been said already, the majority of trans people probably have more of a desire to blend in than stand out. If a trans person is passable except for their genitals, I would think that he or she would have the common sense to just change in the bathroom stall or other private area of their preferred locker room. The issue here though, is that someone who was very obviously a man dressing as a woman was using the locker room. Realistically, I doubt this is a common enough occurrence to even justify an official company policy. In this case, PF totally ignored one individual's comfort in favor of another's. IMO, it would have been much better if they had given the guy another type of special accommodation, such as use of a separate "staff only" bathroom or locker.

Jay12
03-14-2015, 10:14 AM
I never assume any corporation is going to act rationally. Look at how McDonalds handled that woman burning the flesh off her legs with the coffee.



You say that McDonald's did not act in a rational manner when they paid out that money to that elderly woman who suffered THIRD DEGREE burns due to that excessively hot coffee? Well, if that's not being rational, I rather not know what's being "rational".

Red Velvette
03-14-2015, 10:25 AM
You'd actually have to read up on the entire case regarding the hot coffee incident. It sounds cut and dried and that she was just a scammer. But I've spoken to several attorneys regarding this case and they agreed with the court decision. (McDonalds acted in a wreckless manner.) I wish I remembered all of the specifics, but I do remember changing my mind about thinking it was frivolous and silly.

DreamsInDigital
03-14-2015, 12:17 PM
You'd actually have to read up on the entire case regarding the hot coffee incident. It sounds cut and dried and that she was just a scammer. But I've spoken to several attorneys regarding this case and they agreed with the court decision. (McDonalds acted in a wreckless manner.) I wish I remembered all of the specifics, but I do remember changing my mind about thinking it was frivolous and silly.

I remember when this happened - it got brought up as a topic in my business class. The way it was explained to us was basically that there is a standard range of temperatures in which coffee should be served so that it is hot enough to drink, but safe enough so that, you know....you don't get a 3rd degree burn if you spill it on yourself. I guess it's common knowledge in the business. Apparently McDonalds had turned the temp on their coffee wayyy past the max of this range, because they wanted the "freshly brewed coffee" smell to permeate the restaurant. (It supposedly makes customers spend more or something like that.)

Kellydancer
03-14-2015, 05:24 PM
Whether McDonald's is right or wrong, the reality is frivolous lawsuits are a serious problem. There have been cases of criminals suing the victims of their crime for things like shooting them. That's the problem, people don't want to offend others even though they deserve it.

eagle2
03-15-2015, 02:40 PM
The Ford Modeling Agency recently hired a female to exclusively model mens' clothing.

http://style.time.com/2012/11/20/male-models-the-female-of-the-species/

lestat1
03-19-2015, 07:00 PM
Sorry to go off-topic, but this is a pet-peeve of mine:

"Liebeck was taken to the hospital, where it was determined that she had suffered third-degree burns on six percent of her skin and lesser burns over sixteen percent.[11] She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting. During this period, Liebeck lost 20 pounds (9 kg, nearly 20% of her body weight), reducing her to 83 pounds (38 kg). Liebeck suffered permanent disfigurement after the incident and was partially disabled for up to two years afterwards." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restaurants

It's not frivolous when you spend eight days in the hospital. I won't post it here (too graphic), but if you have a very strong stomach, go Google image "Liebeck coffee burn mcdonalds" and then come back here and tell me that it was a frivolous lawsuit.


On-topic: I realize this is a costly and long-term solution, but having more options (gender neutral, family, private/solo) regarding bathrooms, locker rooms, dressing rooms, shower facilities, etc. is something that helps trans-people, people with young children not ready to use the bathroom on their own, someone who for whatever reason prefers a private bathroom, and so on. There was a time when few buildings had access for people with disabilities, and now it's law. Just throwing it out there. I know I'd prefer a private room compared to standing next to some strange dude with (if we're lucky) a short partition between us, even if it means I have to wait in a longer line.