View Full Version : Is it me or has stripping completely switched to light to heavy extras?
lokikola
06-29-2015, 06:46 PM
Removed
culitos
06-29-2015, 06:49 PM
I think it's silly to take out your frustations over someone whom you don't know just because you disagree with their actions.. seriously. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it just 20 years ago where anything beyond air dancing was an extra? So if you grind up on guys during dances, then technically you're committing an "extra." See where I'm going with this? Dancing is a job that's sexual in nature whether you like it or not, and it's a job that's going to keep evolving. Some girls take it a notch further than others. I'm not going to get mad at some bitch because she makes her money sucking dick, I rather worry about improving my hustle. Remember men get their rocks off in different ways, not everyone goes for these extras girls. And if you're not making enough where you are, you should probably find a new club that fits your hustle more instead of whining about it.
I_am_out
06-29-2015, 07:32 PM
I think it's silly to take out your frustations over someone whom you don't know just because you disagree with their actions.. seriously. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it just 20 years ago where anything beyond air dancing was an extra? So if you grind up on guys during dances, then technically you're committing an "extra." See where I'm going with this? Dancing is a job that's sexual in nature whether you like it or not, and it's a job that's going to keep evolving. Some girls take it a notch further than others. I'm not going to get mad at some bitch because she makes her money sucking dick, I rather worry about improving my hustle. Remember men get their rocks off in different ways, not everyone goes for these extras girls. And if you're not making enough where you are, you should probably find a new club that fits your hustle more instead of whining about it.
Jesus Christ... It's not just because we "disagree with their actions". Or can't make any money. We aren't mad that some girls make money, providing sexual services as long as they don't fuck up club with that. Would anybody tell something to Tourdefranzia if she was escort/bodyrub girl instead of tricking in the club? Absolutely not.
You seriously don't see any harm from extras? Ok, here we gooooo...
1) Even though a lot of customers don't want to get off, others will not refuse if offered. Once he gets his dick sucked, he will most likely want the same again. Thus it makes clean dancers hustle harder.
2) Some custies are turned off by atmosphere of whorehouse. My buddy went to check out some club. Once he came in, crazy skank jumped on him, rubbing his dick and asking him to bang her in the back. He run away from her, lol, and then another, clean dancer, approached him, they went upstairs. While she was dancing, he has heard some moans/sex sounds from another booth. It's just all of that felt filthy. Even though he has liked his dancer, he has never come back. Can't blame him at all. Some places are more or less discreet about prostitution going on, some are...Not. Hence clean customers with money to spend on dances are driven off.
3) If you go to college and want to find vanilla job later. If you will ever face fight for child custody in the court. If you will want to move to another apartment and potential landlord runs background check on you. If you were born in another country so you are in process of getting Green Card/citizenship therefore you should prove to immigration that you are a person of "good moral characteristics" with no criminal record. If you just care about your record, then I don't understand how you don't care about extras going on next to you. Cops can bust club for prostitution any time and sweep clean dancers along with hookers, you know that.
culitos
06-30-2015, 07:59 AM
Jesus Christ... It's not just because we "disagree with their actions". Or can't make any money. We aren't mad that some girls make money, providing sexual services as long as they don't fuck up club with that. Would anybody tell something to Tourdefranzia if she was escort/bodyrub girl instead of tricking in the club? Absolutely not.
You seriously don't see any harm from extras? Ok, here we gooooo...
1) Even though a lot of customers don't want to get off, others will not refuse if offered. Once he gets his dick sucked, he will most likely want the same again. Thus it makes clean dancers hustle harder.
2) Some custies are turned off by atmosphere of whorehouse. My buddy went to check out some club. Once he came in, crazy skank jumped on him, rubbing his dick and asking him to bang her in the back. He run away from her, lol, and then another, clean dancer, approached him, they went upstairs. While she was dancing, he has heard some moans/sex sounds from another booth. It's just all of that felt filthy. Even though he has liked his dancer, he has never come back. Can't blame him at all. Some places are more or less discreet about prostitution going on, some are...Not. Hence clean customers with money to spend on dances are driven off.
3) If you go to college and want to find vanilla job later. If you will ever face fight for child custody in the court. If you will want to move to another apartment and potential landlord runs background check on you. If you were born in another country so you are in process of getting Green Card/citizenship therefore you should prove to immigration that you are a person of "good moral characteristics" with no criminal record. If you just care about your record, then I don't understand how you don't care about extras going on next to you. Cops can bust club for prostitution any time and sweep clean dancers along with hookers, you know that.
1) true. But why worry about it when you're still making money is my point. Customers may expect it but it doesn't mean that they have to get it. A lot of times SC regulars will take what they can get, regardless if you offer extras or not.
2) can't argue with this.
3) busts are a possibility wherever you work no matter what, did you know that giving a full contact dance is considered sexual activity under the law. If that's worth the risk is up to YOU. It's not fair but that's the way it is and I don't see it changing anytime soon. If there's anyone we should be mad at, is the club management (pimps) at these clubs that allow extras to happen in the first place.
Melonie
06-30-2015, 08:42 AM
busts are a possibility wherever you work no matter what, did you know that giving a full contact dance is considered sexual activity under the law. If that's worth the risk is up to YOU. It's not fair but that's the way it is and I don't see it changing anytime soon. If there's anyone we should be mad at, is the club management (pimps) at these clubs that allow extras to happen in the first place.
This circles back to my earlier comments. Despite the fact that very few busts are ever made because of them, by the letter of the law in most states a contact lap dance is in fact an act of 'sexual contact' ... which technically makes a 'clean' dancer giving contact lap dances or allowing / enduring breast touching just as legally guilty of a prostitution / lewd conduct / anti-strip club ordinance violation as a 'dirty' dancer giving a HJ or BJ. 'Clean' dancers who have been swept up in club busts are usually VERY surprised to find this out the 'hard way'.
Circling back on a similar topic, from a pragmatic standpoint it's really difficult to blame clubowners who now allow HJ's and BJ's when A. allowing contact lap dances is technically just as illegal, and B. virtually all bust risk will fall on the dancers and not on the clubowner. Put another way, clubowners really have nothing additional to 'lose', and potentially have much to 'gain', by allowing 'dirty' dancers to sell an increased number of private dances / VIP's ( from which the clubs take a 'cut' ) by 'whatever means'.
miss.a.p1600
06-30-2015, 10:44 AM
This circles back to my earlier comments. Despite the fact that very few busts are ever made because of them, by the letter of the law in most states a contact lap dance is in fact an act of 'sexual contact' ... which technically makes a 'clean' dancer giving contact lap dances or allowing / enduring breast touching just as legally guilty of a prostitution / lewd conduct / anti-strip club ordinance violation as a 'dirty' dancer giving a HJ or BJ. 'Clean' dancers who have been swept up in club busts are usually VERY surprised to find this out the 'hard way'.
Circling back on a similar topic, from a pragmatic standpoint it's really difficult to blame clubowners who now allow HJ's and BJ's when A. allowing contact lap dances is technically just as illegal, and B. virtually all bust risk will fall on the dancers and not on the clubowner. Put another way, clubowners really have nothing additional to 'lose', and potentially have much to 'gain', by allowing 'dirty' dancers to sell an increased number of private dances / VIP's ( from which the clubs take a 'cut' ) by 'whatever means'.
Club owners and perv customers who are just as guilty and able to evade trouble when the dancers get busted = totally sexist... At least I know now if one is participating in the black market extras game, it pays to be an owner not a dancer. The owner is getting a cut of all the dancers extras fees while himself not having to engage in extras or go down legally.
And are you certain busk risk does not fall on owners? Or does it depend on the type of charges? i have seen reports (I can pm you) where club owners allowing extras and drugs got busted and served time as well.
I also think culitos has a valid point. Jumping down an extras dancers throat is not going to eliminate the black market for this type of activity. The club managers and owners make the rules and law enforcement enforces the law. So If one wants to see an end to this then why not quit dancing and work for law enforcement???
Optimist
06-30-2015, 11:20 AM
1) true. But why worry about it when you're still making money is my point. Customers may expect it but it doesn't mean that they have to get it. A lot of times SC regulars will take what they can get, regardless if you offer extras or not.
2) can't argue with this.
3) busts are a possibility wherever you work no matter what, did you know that giving a full contact dance is considered sexual activity under the law. If that's worth the risk is up to YOU. It's not fair but that's the way it is and I don't see it changing anytime soon. If there's anyone we should be mad at, is the club management (pimps) at these clubs that allow extras to happen in the first place.
It's not an either/or situation. BOTH parties are benefiting and BOTH parties are to blame. You will never see change if you continue to sit on your hands and declare nothing can be done and rush to shut down those who are willing to speak up.
Club owners and perv customers who are just as guilty and able to evade trouble when the dancers get busted = totally sexist... At least I know now if one is participating in the black market extras game, it pays to be an owner not a dancer. The owner is getting a cut of all the dancers extras fees while himself not having to engage in extras or go down legally.
And are you certain busk risk does not fall on owners? Or does it depend on the type of charges? i have seen reports (I can pm you) where club owners allowing extras and drugs got busted and served time as well.
I also think culitos has a valid point. Jumping down an extras dancers throat is not going to eliminate the black market for this type of activity. The club managers and owners make the rules and law enforcement enforces the law. So If one wants to see an end to this then why not quit dancing and work for law enforcement???
It's a message board and people will disagree. Giving an opinion against those going outside the norm, going to the extreme is natural. You can do a lot of illegal things but it takes a special kind of stupid to do it openly and brazenly. Let's try this: "If one wants to prostitute then why not quit dancing and go work a brothel?" Pretty arrogant to suggest the girls most in compliance with the law should leave if they don't like the deterioration of their industry.
miss.a.p1600
06-30-2015, 11:26 AM
That's not what I was implying optimist. I totally understand everyone has their own opinion and some will disagree. And that's okay.
If men want prostitutes why don't they go to brothels? If dancers who moonlight as escorts or prostitutes want to do it legally they should work at brothels. Just as men who expect full service should go to brothels. But guess what only one city in Nevada allows that.
Also why do strip club managers / owners run thinly veiled brothels where it is illegal to do so? Yet they don't get busted or they When they do the "innocent" people get caught up too? None of this is fair. I personally don't like one bit and have been disadvantaged as a result of black market extras....
What I'm saying is if a person wants REAL change b*tching on a forum to unknown people is going to get you nowhere. Real change can only occur when people work to change the laws or work for / become the people that enforce the laws.
That's like me living and working the hood and complaining about the drug dealers to their face. If I wanted to see drug dealer out of my neighborhood I'd report them to the police or work for law enforcement. But I'd also be ready to move cause I know that's a risky thing to do.
Optimist
06-30-2015, 11:45 AM
That's not what I was implying optimist.
If men want prostitutes why don't they go to brothels? If dancers who moonlight as escorts or prostitutes want to do it legally they should work at brothels. But guess what only one city in Nevada allows that.
What I'm saying is if a person wants REAL change b*tching on a forum to unknown people is going to get you nowhere. Real change can only occur when people work to change the laws or work for people that enforce the laws.
That's like me living and working the hood and complaining about the drug dealers to their face. If I wanted to see drug dealer out of my neighborhood I'd report them to the police or work for law enforcement. But I'd also be ready to move cause I know that's a risky thing to do.
We can intimidate prostitutes out of the club in some cases. I've seen girls keep clubs clean and stay in management's ass about it to the point where they wouldn't piss the quality steady girls off for the trainwreck prostitutes.
This forum in particular is about maintaining and boosting morale. So talking it up does help bolster the women who will speak up and act up tomorrow.
If dancers who moonlight as escorts or prostitutes want to do it legally they should work at brothels. But guess what only one city in Nevada allows that.
Guess what NO club allows it either. That's why we complain. Take that blatantly illegal shit elsewhere.
If men want prostitutes why don't they go to brothels? They do! Even illegal ones and they and their providers should be far away from where I'm making a living.
That's like me living and working the hood and complaining about the drug dealers to their face. If I wanted to see drug dealer out of my neighborhood I'd report them to the police or work for law enforcement. But I'd also be ready to move cause I know that's a risky thing to do.
If I lived in a suburban methhead town and wanted the dealers and users gone I would speak to my upstanding compliant neighbors to create an organized resistance and problem solving. We could get back to that if you could step out of the way instead of saying "resistance is futile". Be part of the solution.
Melonie
06-30-2015, 11:48 AM
Club owners and perv customers who are just as guilty and able to evade trouble when the dancers get busted = totally sexist... At least I know now if one is participating in the black market extras game, it pays to be an owner not a dancer. The owner is getting a cut of all the dancers extras fees while himself not having to engage in extras or go down legally.
And are you certain busk risk does not fall on owners? Or does it depend on the type of charges? i have seen reports (I can pm you) where club owners allowing extras and drugs got busted and served time as well.
Oh, for sure, more than a few clubowners have faced charges. And indeed, if there is evidence to show that they were directly receiving money from acts of prostitution, from drug sales, etc. there is a strong possibility the clubowner could do some 'time'. This in fact happened to the owner of a small club I once worked at. When the clubowners first brought in a few 'dirty' dancers, a large group of 'clean' dancers protested to the clubowner. After doing nothing for a couple of weeks after we 'clean' dancers repeatedly protested, we 'clean' dancers made up our minds that we were going to put an ultimatum to the clubowner ... either the 'dirty' dancers had to go, or we 'clean' dancers were going to quit. The clubowner thought about that for 30 seconds or so, and then told us 'clean' dancers to pack up our s$!t and leave. 2 seconds later the clubowner picked up his phone. By the time we 'clean' dancers had changed back into street clothes and were 'settling up' with the clubowner for the night's money, a group of new dancers came walking in the door ... who were 'loaned' to this clubowner by a buddy who operated a strip club in an adjacent city ( about 20 minutes away ). It turned out that the replacement dancers were as 'dirty' as the girls we had originally protested about.
For about the next 3 months the clubowner and the now 100% 'dirty' dancers were earning money hand over fist as word got around that customers could find maximum 'bang' for their bucks. But the outright promotion of 'extras' finally drew the attention of local residents, who put pressure on local LE. As a result, the club was busted. However, rather than being 'smart' about 'extras' ( i.e. tacit approval only, thus being able to claim 'honest officer I had no idea what was going on in the private dance area' ) this clubowner had been actively promoting OTC his club's availability of 'pay for play' to draw in new customers. That was evidence for a 'promoting prostitution' charge.
However, where the clubowner is smart about 'extras', he will avoid taking an active role thus avoid creating any 'hard' evidence that he is directly promoting or profiting from prostitution. And as an 'ace in the hole', if his club is busted, smart clubowners will bankroll the club's attorney to sell the local DA on a plea bargain package deal, where the club's attorney will pay dancers' fines and provide them legal representation for 'free' if the dancers agree to a plea bargain involving zero jail time and zero fine money out of dancer's pockets, where the club's attorney delivers those de-facto guilty pleas from the busted dancers to the DA with essentially no LE or court costs beyond the original bust ( no trials, no LE testimony ) and where in exchange the DA agrees not to press charges of any sort against the clubowner.
Generally speaking, dancers who already have one prostitution bust on their record suffer zero additional negative effects by pleading guilty to a second or third or tenth charge as long as the club is picking up the cost of fines and legal fees, and as long as the plea bargain deal guarantees zero jail time. Thus a 'revolving door' scenario.
Flickdreams
06-30-2015, 11:49 AM
I understand and appreciate your frustration, believe me. But, in my experience, it's a losing fight if clubs stay the way they are.
What do strippers want? A safe place to provide their services and make a living.
What do prostitutes want? A safe place to provide their services and make a living.
The only long term solution for this is:
1. Joining the fight to make dancers TRUE independent contractors who pay a reasonable flat fee to work or (less desirable) tipped employees who make a base wage and keep their profits. The pressure to make house fees, DJ tip outs, losing 20-40% (or more!) of your income to the club contributes greatly to the desperation that makes girls resort to extras. We make the club owners fucking rich by just showing up and drawing crowds that buy drinks - they don't deserve our labor and our money. What happens in most clubs is blatant exploitation they get away with because society does not give a fuck about sex worker's rights. One shitty club I worked at made $3 million in DOOR FEES ALONE a year.
2. Advocating for the legalization of prostitution and protections for them. Until a decade or so ago, many cases of the murder of sex workers were classified NHI (no humans involved). It's scary as hell out there to hook, and every woman (especially fellow sex workers!) should be fighting to protect each other. Prostitutes still get murdered, raped, and assaulted everyday. Most go uninvestigated unless the cops think the perpetrator is a threat to society at large (like a serial killer). This shit has to stop. Prostitutes are not our enemy - a sex negative rape culture that sees prostitutes as worthless and "asking for it" is.
Ok, how about legalising brothels not advertising strip clubs as strip clubs when they are actually brothels in disguise.
Melonie
06-30-2015, 11:53 AM
^^^ you might want to talk to some Canadian dancers about the effect of their country's recent supreme court decision which legalized prostitution for the prostitutes ... but criminalized it for the customers !!!
see
If this proposal comes to pass, it will essentially 'guarantee' that any future Canadian club dancer hirings will absolutely require that the girls be willing to perform 'pay for play' sex acts.
miss.a.p1600
06-30-2015, 12:01 PM
Optimist, Obviously this works if managers actually do something about it...like how your club operates. Which is a good thing they follow the laws and they listen to dancers feedback.
But I don't get what you mean when you say "no club allows it..." Meaning illegal sh*t. Meaning extras? Apparently some clubs are turning a blind eye and indirectly allowing it. That's why these thread are created....
What do "clean" dancers do when managers turn blind eye to complaints??? Like what would you do if the managers brushed you off when you and others dancers complained about extras dancers? What's the next step then?
I'm not saying resistance is futile. You said that.
Whoops....looks like Melonie kind of answered my question as I was typing.
I_am_out
06-30-2015, 12:06 PM
1) true. But why worry about it when you're still making money is my point. Customers may expect it but it doesn't mean that they have to get it. A lot of times SC regulars will take what they can get, regardless if you offer extras or not.
2) can't argue with this.
3) busts are a possibility wherever you work no matter what, did you know that giving a full contact dance is considered sexual activity under the law. If that's worth the risk is up to YOU. It's not fair but that's the way it is and I don't see it changing anytime soon. If there's anyone we should be mad at, is the club management (pimps) at these clubs that allow extras to happen in the first place.
1) A lot of dancers make decent money in spite of extras, indeed. But it is harder, when you have to compete with extras. Specially when prostitutes in your club are not uglies/fatties/worn-out crackheads but pretty/cute/fit girls who don't really have to do this. Making really good money is a hassle for a clean girl in Detroit,South Florida,LA,Houston, etc thanks to extras. And I have a lot of respect to ladies who have enough guts to work clean AND earn a good living there regardless of clubs, being nasty. But I can only imagine how hard it is and how many good girls were driven out of this industry because of this issue. There are countless cases of assaults against dancers partly because of certain customers being rapey pieces of shit, partly because they are used to getting extras in the back and assume that girl tries to rip them off if she refuses to "deliver".
3) Yeah, I read that giving contact lap-dance might get you busted too. But attention of LE will more likely be attracted to actually dirty club over place with full-contact lappers but no sucking/fucking going on. I just googled "strip club bust" and read articles that popped up. Even though minority of dancers were charged with "lewd behavior" or smth like that(so I guess, it was for giving contact dances), most of prostitution busts were actually because gals agreed on sexual acts in the back).
Melonie
06-30-2015, 12:08 PM
What do "clean" dancers do when managers turn blind eye to complaints??? Like what would you do if the managers brushed you off when you and others dancers complained about extras dancers? What's the next step then?
In my own case, the next step was 8 of us 'clean' dancers scrambling to be hired at other clubs ... with the 'word being out' to all other area clubowners that we were 'troublemakers' and also weren't down with providing 'extras'. Three of us actually managed to get hired at different clubs within an hour's drive or so.
Flickdreams
06-30-2015, 12:17 PM
^ Well how unlike a bureaucratic decision to send out a mixed message! But i live in Australia, and we have legalised prostitution (there is a brothel across the road from my club). Yes, we still see extras in the clubs, not to the extent of America though; I would say we are trending that way though- but then, maybe we will see some LE in that regard because brothels pay their taxes and dirty strip clubs would affect their income; I don't know.
I guess it becomes a question of pros and cons and we each have to weigh up the situation we find ourselves in- stripping is a great job (under the right conditions) but its not the only way to make a living and if the mental and emotional anguish/pressure/stress is too much then I guess you have to ask yourself, whats the healthy choice for me?
Seriously though, if you are despairing at the situation then maybe it is time to get out! If you are an active member of this forum then I assume that you are beautiful, talented, resilient, and open-minded (for starters) and I'm sure that you have other options available to you. And if you want to stick with dancing remember you are beautiful, talented, resilient, and open-minded (for starters) and you don't have to go past your boundaries to make a living as an entertainer.
I'm out, this thread and most threads re. extras are just rehash after rehash and in my lowest and depressive phases they demoralize me and and make motivating myself to work that much harder; call it what you will, sticking my head in the sand etc but at the end of the day I want to fill myself up with life affirming threads like LOA and feel the bonding when I read 'you know you are a stripper when' or when we all pull a troll thread to pieces.
culitos
06-30-2015, 03:43 PM
Optimist, I never once said that extra girls aren't at fault. Reread what I said. And its one thing to make your point and another to harass someone just because you don't agree with their lifestyle choices (not talking anyone specifically). I'm not an extras girl by any chance but doesn't mean I'm going to flame tourdefranzia because of what she does. BTW good for you for being in a club where girls will run off those who perform dirty deeds, but know that some of us work in large clubs wherein not all the girls know each other so it'd be pretty much impossible to get the dancers together to scare off these girls.
I don't agree with extras done in the club, but what some extras girl does in the club isn't going to concern me personally. I'm still making enough money, and at the end of the day the only ones they have to answer to is themselves.
culitos
06-30-2015, 03:45 PM
I guess it becomes a question of pros and cons and we each have to weigh up the situation we find ourselves in- stripping is a great job (under the right conditions) but its not the only way to make a living and if the mental and emotional anguish/pressure/stress is too much then I guess you have to ask yourself, whats the healthy choice for me?
Seriously though, if you are despairing at the situation then maybe it is time to get out! If you are an active member of this forum then I assume that you are beautiful, talented, resilient, and open-minded (for starters) and I'm sure that you have other options available to you. And if you want to stick with dancing remember you are beautiful, talented, resilient, and open-minded (for starters) and you don't have to go past your boundaries to make a living as an entertainer.
I'm out, this thread and most threads re. extras are just rehash after rehash and in my lowest and depressive phases they demoralize me and and make motivating myself to work that much harder; call it what you will, sticking my head in the sand etc but at the end of the day I want to fill myself up with life affirming threads like LOA and feel the bonding when I read 'you know you are a stripper when' or when we all pull a troll thread to pieces.
Agreed 100%.