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eagle2
07-03-2015, 10:04 AM
^^^ apparently it now depends on who the business owners are and who the plaintiffs are ... see http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/01/us/hobby-lobby-case-supreme-court-contraception.html

I quit trying to make logical sense out of many of these rulings / changes a decade ago !!!

Everyone has some sort of bias or another, including Supreme Court Justices. That's why you don't see many 9 - 0 rulings.

miss.a.p1600
07-03-2015, 10:06 AM
Uh there are still towns where blacks aren't welcome. Travel to crossville, Tn for example you'll see what I mean. Plus I don't think race discrimination is the same thing. Like a person gets DNA from their parents (grandparents, etc) that determine their skin color. As far as I know there is no gay / homosexual genes. This type of discrimination reminds me of those old school caste systems - you're basically f*cked from birth and nothing you can do to change your DNA.

Now i do believe legalizing interracial marriage can be compared to the legalization of gay marriage.

But I do agree if the majority of people in an area all decide to actively discriminate against a group of people they can literally run them out the area - ending with some extreme social Darwinism type sh*t - like I wouldn't dare live in places like Mississippi or Arkansas or parts of Tennessee if I wanted to marry outside my race or gender and not expect an uphill battle.

This is just unreal....I'm speechless about this....http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/07/01/tennessee-hardware-store-no-gays-allowed-sign/29552615/

oldster
07-03-2015, 02:36 PM
There used to be a very 'bright' line ... in the form of the 1st amendment.

Apparently, the original verbage "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." now only applies to individuals. Apparently, if they are business owners, in exchange for the 'privilege' of being allowed to operate a business, it now requires that the business owner's individual religious convictions be disregarded during the operation of that business.

I'm not saying that this is a good thing or a bad thing, just that it's quite different.


businesses do not have constitutional rights, no matter what Scalia says

a person running a business does not have the right to discriminate based on their faith.

there is no downside to this

everything you think is a downside is balanced by the 10000 things that are better than bigots deciding everything we can buy or sell

oldster
07-03-2015, 02:46 PM
Just to ad

one of the reasons we have priests and ministers is so they do not have to run a business to support themselves. That way they do not have to muddle their philosophy.

The rest of us do.

One of the things I have been saying for years is that one of the most important things in business is dealing with people you do not like[like I have to convince this group of women of that]

threlayer
07-05-2015, 03:58 PM
A civil union with ALL the benefits is good, but officially calling it marriage is just PC.

simone87
07-05-2015, 07:07 PM
the way i understand it is, if you have a business that serves the public, you need to serve the entire public. businesses are not allowed to discriminate based on color, religion, gender, sexual orientation when they hire either, and it should be that way for providing services. you as a person can go ahead and make an ass out of yourself being a bigot, but refusing services in your business is totally different.
i know nobody in this thread has said this, but i just dont' understand all these religious types saying things like " i just don't support your lifestyle" like being gay is like being a drug addict or putting on a costume instead of something innate you are born with, part of who you are. you might as well say to your black friend " i love you as a person, but i just cannot support or condone you being black!" like what???

miss.a.p1600
07-05-2015, 09:11 PM
I still don't see how being black is the same as being gay. Its no comparison and not the same topic.

Race is determined by you dna from mom and dad. Most people know their sexual orientation from a young age but its not in your dna. You literally have 0 control over your race. And yes its fawked up to be discriminated against for sexual orientation but its more fawked up to be discriminated against for something you have no control over like race.

Also consider that people that change sexual orientation (decide they no longer are gay anymore - ie Anne Heche, Jackie Clune, Antoine Dodson, etc.)

Its impossible to change your race. If you're born black thats how you are till you die. No amount of faking, changing your mind, passing for white, skin bleaching will deny the truth - and want the truth? just get a dna test. Can you get a dna test to determine sexual orientation? A gay person can stay in the closet for years and even marry heterosexual and people will never know the truth.

I just cannot understand how a person can be "born" homosexual / heterosexual / etc.

If you want to add race to this discussion then I believe the only fair comparison would be interracial marriages (which became legal in the us in 1967). Yes even still today some families are just as much agains blacks marrying into their family / interracial marriages as they are gay / same sex marriages.

Civil rights and gay rights have some similarities (like fighting for equality) but are also very, very, very different.

simone87
07-05-2015, 09:21 PM
well there has absolutely been evidence that being gay is in your genes and that sexual orientation is a trait you are born with. male sexual orientation genes have been identified. of course its easier to pretend to be straight than it is to pretend to be white, but my point was that being black is something you are born into just like being gay, its part of who you are and should not be treated like a costume or willful lifestyle choice

kirakonstantin
07-06-2015, 03:30 AM
The difference between the bakery lawsuit and the contraception lawsuit is that the contraception lawsuit was based on federal laws and the bakery lawsuit was based on State law. Big difference there.

Yes, there is a lot of scientific evidence that homosexuality is genetic and it's not unique to humans. Most organisms that reproduce sexually have homosexual members.

As a Christian from childhood, I was raised to believe that homosexuality is a hell worthy sin. I heard it in church often. I also heard that Christians were to distinguish themselves from "worldly" people and not to associate with unrepentant sinners. I get where the bakery owners are coming from. This is what most Christians are taught for their entire lives.

A good friend of mine almost has a PhD in theology. During his final years in school, when I was questioning my Atheism, we challenged eachother to read the entire Bible, aided with a companion text that gave historical context and assistance with translation.

Nothing in the Bible prohibits the modern day practice of homosexuality. Sodom and Gommorah were not destroyed due to homosexuality and Sodomite did not refer to a homosexual person. After I puzzled this out, I called my friend to discuss this and we talked about it for nearly two weeks. We agreed. He left his doctorate program, because he didn't believe anyone would ever take him seriously if he accepted homosexuality.

Most Christians have never read the Bible all the way through and only know cherrypicked verses that are repeated out of context in church. Most of them are ignorant of what their Bible actually says and what those words really mean. There were Biblical verses used to justify racial bigotry too, but that practice has mostly faded away.

I pray that this does as well because Christ condemned very few people and hated none. He brought the outcasts closer to him than anyone else. I really don't think Christ is going to have a problem with same sex marriage. He will likely have a problem with the hatred expressed in His name... Jesus was a big fan of showing love, tolerance and acceptance and, as Christians, we're called to follow his example.

Christianity really needs to get it's head out of its ass, READ the Bible for comprehension and stop this backwater bullshit.

Raziel
07-06-2015, 09:24 AM
At the end of the day something changed. What effect that will have is yet to be seen. Insurance companies are definitely crapping pants, they have a LOT more spouses they will have to insure. Real bona-fide homophobes are hollering, folks are quitting their jobs, groups are trying to get states to secede (Yeah, right!). LGBTQ and Allies are celebrating. This is all new. We have to let the stew settle. For every idiot that quits their job rather than issue a marriage license there will be someone unemployed that will be happy to. For every nincompoop Congressmen or Governor complaining, there is the CONSTITUTION. Whatever they say, it is the law of the land. For every idiot prancing about yelling to disband the Supreme Court of the United States, there's that pesky Constitution. You'd have to rewrite the damed thing if you did that, so how can they love it if they want to rewrite it?

Sour apples is sour, especially when they don't go your way. But that is the nature of Democracy. We had to deal with dropping bombs on faceless brown people in Iraq, those twerps can deal with the law finally standing up for something good. #lovewins. I can only imagine a few better things to fight for than love, for all.

Trem
07-06-2015, 09:56 AM
You literally have 0 control over your race.

You literally have zero control over your sexual orientation.

miss.a.p1600
07-06-2015, 10:03 AM
You literally have zero control over your sexual orientation.
You parents didn't determine your sexuality when you were born. Can you DNa test for sexual orientation like you can for gender or race??? No you cannot. You can't get pregnant by a gay man / use gay mans sperm and make a half gay baby can you???

And explain Anne Heche being lesbian then marrying a dude??? And explain Antoine Dodson - flamboyant gay man who later marries a woman, has a baby, a says he's no longer gay?!?

Trem
07-06-2015, 10:11 AM
You parents didn't determine your sexuality when you were born. Can you DNa test for sexual orientation like you can for gender or race??? No you cannot. You can't get pregnant by a gay man / use gay mans sperm and make a half gay baby can you???

I don't see what this has to do with anything.


And explain Anne Heche being lesbian then marrying a dude??? And explain Antoine Dodson - flamboyant gay man who later marries a woman, has a baby, a says he's no longer gay?!?

Gay/straight is not a binary option, they are two ends of a spectrum with many stops in between. That does not mean you have a choice of what gender or genders you find attractive.

HoolaTwister
07-06-2015, 10:11 AM
Why would someone insist they want a cake by a person who is uncomfortable doing so because their religion tells them it's wrong? How many other bakeries out are out there who are willing to do it, no problem? A ton. So why do these people insist and bully and DEMAND it, causing such a stir and drama? Congratulations, you've just become a disgusting bigot and bully yourself! The victim industry in full force, we will see a lot more cases and a lot more $$$$$$$ rewarded.

Of course, none of them would ever dream of going into a Muslim bakery and demanding a gay wedding cake or a Mohammad cake. Nobody is going to go into a Jewish bakery and demand a cake for celebrating Hitler's birthday. Because, you know, that would be wrong.

kirakonstantin
07-06-2015, 12:41 PM
Why would someone insist they want a cake by a person who is uncomfortable doing so because their religion tells them it's wrong? How many other bakeries out are out there who are willing to do it, no problem? A ton. So why do these people insist and bully and DEMAND it, causing such a stir and drama? Congratulations, you've just become a disgusting bigot and bully yourself! The victim industry in full force, we will see a lot more cases and a lot more $$$$$$$ rewarded.

Of course, none of them would ever dream of going into a Muslim bakery and demanding a gay wedding cake or a Mohammad cake. Nobody is going to go into a Jewish bakery and demand a cake for celebrating Hitler's birthday. Because, you know, that would be wrong.

Well, there are two parts to this. Portland is an extremely tolerant area and actually legalized same sex marriage in 2004, for a short time. This couple could have easily found another bakery who'd be thrilled to have their business. And, I'm sure they did. This particular case I kind of feel is a money grab and bullying by someone who happened to fall under legal protection. They knew they could cry discrimination and punish someone, because they didn't get their way. A friend of mine who lives in the area mentioned something about the couple wanting more money for the "public embarrassment. " Also note that this is a small, family owned business. I don't think we're going to see Walmart sued for not stocking "Mr and Mr" wedding favors.

Now in a smaller, less tolerant area, options are much more limited. When I got married in small town Michigan, there was one bakery that did wedding cakes and one bridal shop. There were three seamstresses that did bridal alterations. What if a same sex couple was refused service in that kind of environment? That's where this kind of legislation really matters, because same sex couples have a legal right to marry and can't be denied service based on their sexual orientation. In some areas, it would cause a severe hardship or make it completely impossible to obtain services.

Celebrating Hitler's birthday isn't a religious observance and doesn't fall under any kind of legal protection. There is no protected reason to want a Mohammed cake and, should a Muslim owned business refuse service to a same sex couple, the situation would be exactly the same as the one we're discussing. But, and this is a big one... I can see this being taken way too far and openly religious businesses being purposely targeted. There's been rumblings about it, but it doesn't go much beyond conspiracy theory at this point. I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that and, if it does, protections are put in place, because business owners are people too and nobody deserves to be harassed or targeted due to their belief system, however backward and illogical someone may think it is.

Trem
07-06-2015, 12:46 PM
How many other bakeries out are out there who are willing to do it, no problem? A ton.

Yeah, maybe where YOU live. Try being gay in a rural southern town if we allow them to discriminate and see how that works out for you. The moment we allow one of those bigots to not serve someone because they are gay there will be entire swaths of the country where they won't serve gays ANYWHERE.

kirakonstantin
07-06-2015, 12:55 PM
You parents didn't determine your sexuality when you were born. Can you DNa test for sexual orientation like you can for gender or race??? No you cannot. You can't get pregnant by a gay man / use gay mans sperm and make a half gay baby can you???

And explain Anne Heche being lesbian then marrying a dude??? And explain Antoine Dodson - flamboyant gay man who later marries a woman, has a baby, a says he's no longer gay?!?

Homosexuality is likely genetic. Really, it is:

http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/10443/20141118/homosexuality-genetic-strongest-evidence.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/06/04/the-science-of-sexuality-how-our-genes-make-us-gay-or-straight/

I based a science project on this one: http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index2.html

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1597148

22lligm
07-06-2015, 01:07 PM
I was just going to add that sexual orientation definitely is not a choice. Our genes go farther than just determining our appearances. Thousands and thousands of genes make up who we are so it should not be that surprising that sexual orientation is included in that. I could decide to date a woman one day but I would always feel uncomfortable with it and it would be unnatural for me. I am straight and I don't really have a choice in that.

oldster
07-06-2015, 01:18 PM
It should be added that race is also an artificial construct. Redheads aren't a race, Swedes aren't a race. White is as much a genetic defect[lack of pigmentation] as it is anything.

miss.a.p1600
07-06-2015, 01:31 PM
Thanks for sharing your findings kirakonstantin.

Regardless of what I think about that, and what the cause is, I want to keep on topic and still glad same sex marriage is legal here is US. Long term couples (even same sex couples) should be able to make their relationship official and have legal marital rights. I've read stories about lawsuits where one person died and the living partner could not receive any benefits. That's horrid!

I wonder will other countries legalize it too?

kirakonstantin
07-06-2015, 01:42 PM
Thanks for sharing your findings kirakonstantin.

Regardless of what I think about that, and what the cause is, I want to keep on topic and still glad same sex marriage is legal here is US. Long term couples (even same sex couples) should be able to make their relationship official and have legal marital rights. I've read stories about lawsuits where one person died and the living partner could not receive any benefits. That's horrid!

I wonder will other countries legalize it too?

Goodness, there is a lot of great discussion going on here!!

I feel that it's extremely important that research is going into genetic factors and determining that sexual orientation is based on concrete DNA. Choices can be criminalized, as can behavior and much of the anti gay legislation has been passed under the flawed assumption that homosexuality is 100% choice and an expression of aberrant behavior. The fact that this is proving to be genetically determined puts laws against homosexuality on par with making brown eyes or red hair a criminal offense. It turns it into something completely ridiculous and much easier to strike down as unconstitutional. I have a feeling that, without the research that's been presented, the legalization of same sex marriage never would have been passed.


I was just going to add that sexual orientation definitely is not a choice. Our genes go farther than just determining our appearances. Thousands and thousands of genes make up who we are so it should not be that surprising that sexual orientation is included in that. I could decide to date a woman one day but I would always feel uncomfortable with it and it would be unnatural for me. I am straight and I don't really have a choice in that.

Sexuality is a spectrum, ranging between 100% heterosexual and 100% homosexual. Most people fall somewhere in between. The matter of choice comes in most obviously with people who are bisexual. I've known a lot of people who handled their bisexuality in a lot of different ways and, most of the time, it was a personal choice, based on their personal situation and feelings. Personally, I fall closer to a sexuality and I handle that in my own personal way.

Where choice does not and never will come into play is where a person falls on that spectrum. A bisexual woman who chooses to express that by entering into a heterosexual marriage and listing after hot women or having threesomes is no less bisexual because of that solution.

Oldster: I agree with you that race really is a social construct. Skin color has naturally evolved, based on environmental factors, for thousands and thousands of years. The lack or over production of melanin was a direct evolutionary response to sin exposure and whether a person needed more for protection from radiation or less, because an overabundance of melanin blocks the production of vitamin D in the human body. It's far from being a defect, but more of an expected evolutionary response to environmental conditions that's regularly expressed in every organism.

22lligm
07-06-2015, 02:27 PM
^ I definitely agree with that. I'm just stating that I am 100% heterosexual and nothing will change that. Same goes for everyone else in my opinion no matter where they fall on that spectrum. I could choose to be with a woman but that won't change my sexual orientation. But anyway yeah this is off topic haha I am also very happy gay marriage is legalized. People who argue against it just seem to be giving the same argument people did when it came to interracial marriages. It's kind of baffling that they don't realize that lol. It really irritates me when people go the slippery slope route about gay marriage leading to all these ridiculous assumptions like marrying your dog and what-not.

HoolaTwister
07-06-2015, 04:01 PM
It should be added that race is also an artificial construct. Redheads aren't a race, Swedes aren't a race. White is as much a genetic defect[lack of pigmentation] as it is anything.

You are wrong dude. There is such a thing as race and being white is not a genetic defect. Laughable.

HoolaTwister
07-06-2015, 04:06 PM
Yeah, maybe where YOU live. Try being gay in a rural southern town if we allow them to discriminate and see how that works out for you. The moment we allow one of those bigots to not serve someone because they are gay there will be entire swaths of the country where they won't serve gays ANYWHERE.

As a bisexual, if I wanted to get married in a rural Southern town where absolutely no bakery would do my cake (I've been everywhere in the South and don't get this anti Southern bigotry at all, they are the most welcoming and sweet people but that's just my opinion) I'd bake my own cake or have a family member or friend do it. But I certainly wouldn't bully someone into doing it if they don't want to. That's wrong.

HoolaTwister
07-06-2015, 04:11 PM
I would suggest to the bakers who won't do gay wedding cakes because of their religion to put up a sign that says that all the proceeds they get from the cake they will donate to an anti gay marriage organization. See if the gay couples still want to do business there.

Trem
07-06-2015, 04:18 PM
As a bisexual, if I wanted to get married in a rural Southern town where absolutely no bakery would do my cake (I've been everywhere in the South and don't get this anti Southern bigotry at all, they are the most welcoming and sweet people but that's just my opinion) I'd bake my own cake or have a family member or friend do it. But I certainly wouldn't bully someone into doing it if they don't want to. That's wrong.

You keep oversimplifying things to make it sound like people are over reacting. Once again so you understand: If we allow bigots to discriminate against gays there will be large areas of the country where gays cannot live AT ALL. It's not just about fucking wedding cakes. If cake sellers can discriminate against gays so can every single other business.

simone87
07-06-2015, 04:20 PM
^ i dont understand your vitriol at gay couples who want to be treated fairly by a business that serves the public and whose business is to make cakes for people..its not like they are insisting on local bystanders baking them a cake and coming to their wedding. its not bullying, its expecting a business to serve them and be professional regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, or religion. its standing up to bullies.

HoolaTwister
07-06-2015, 04:31 PM
^ i dont understand your vitriol at gay couples who want to be treated fairly by a business that serves the public and whose business is to make cakes for people..its not like they are insisting on local bystanders baking them a cake and coming to their wedding. its not bullying, its expecting a business to serve them and be professional regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, or religion. its standing up to bullies.

I'm bisexual. I have no vitriol towards myself :) I do have vitriol for people who demand and bully someone just to make a point. As I have said in previous posts, organized religion is not for me. I think I've called it a brainwashing cult on here actually, so I don't come to it from there. I do respect other people are religious and their religion tells them that gay marriage is wrong. Why would I want to disrespect them? We live in a free country. I can go to another bake shop.

HoolaTwister
07-06-2015, 04:36 PM
You keep oversimplifying things to make it sound like people are over reacting. Once again so you understand: If we allow bigots to discriminate against gays there will be large areas of the country where gays cannot live AT ALL. It's not just about fucking wedding cakes. If cake sellers can discriminate against gays so can every single other business.

Gays have been loving all over the country for as long as this country has existed. If a baker refuses to bake that cake, it's not automatically going to turn into a place where gays can be refused everywhere. That's silly and you know it. The baker had no problems selling them a cupcake, a cake, a cookie or whatever. They had a problem selling A WEDDING CAKE. For a GAY WEDDING. Which is against their religion.

eagle2
07-06-2015, 04:39 PM
You literally have 0 control over your race.

This woman thinks that you do.
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-naacp-leader-who-was-recently-outed-as-white-says-she-identifies-as-black-2015-6

HoolaTwister
07-06-2015, 04:39 PM
^^living* not loving :) but we've been doing that as well! Haha

eagle2
07-06-2015, 04:40 PM
Gays have been loving all over the country for as long as this country has existed. If a baker refuses to bake that cake, it's not automatically going to turn into a place where gays can be refused everywhere. That's silly and you know it. The baker had no problems selling them a cupcake, a cake, a cookie or whatever. They had a problem selling A WEDDING CAKE. For a GAY WEDDING. Which is against their religion.

No it isn't. There are no laws in the Bible stating who you can and can't bake a cake for.

simone87
07-06-2015, 04:48 PM
well that's the thing, your religious beliefs can't trump the law or anti discrimination laws..you cannot ( or should not, its unfortunate that you can in some places) deny device to somebody based in something as innate as sexual orientation, or race, or gender, or etc etc. you can't even deny somebody service for their religion which IS a choice . and trem is correct that a lot of times things as simple as one place getting away with discriminating can cause a huge chain reaction and set a precedent.

HoolaTwister
07-06-2015, 04:50 PM
No it isn't. There are no laws in the Bible stating who you can and can't bake a cake for.

Weather it's Christianity, Judaism, or Islam- those religions are against same sex marriage. Baking a cake would be against that person's religious beliefs. It's participating in something that's against your religion. That's wrong. Hasn't the gay community preached tolerance for how long now? How about tolerance for a person's personal and religious beliefs?

You really think it's fine and good that this couple destroyed a little family business because they couldn't force them to do something they weren't willing to do? How sickening.

simone87
07-06-2015, 04:51 PM
and yes gays have been living in this country since it was built, of course, but they have also been widely discriminated against and forced to assimilate just like other minority groups and that's something that should stop now that we're in the 21st century.

eagle2
07-06-2015, 04:57 PM
It's not against the Christian religion to bake a cake. The only reason the bakery refused is because they are bigots. The same bakery was willing to bake cakes for a divorce celebration, a pagan solstice, and to celebrate stem-cell research.

http://www.advocate.com/latest-news/2013/05/30/bakery-will-do-pagan-cloning-and-divorce-cakes-not-gay-weddings

HoolaTwister
07-06-2015, 05:00 PM
well that's the thing, your religious beliefs can't trump the law or anti discrimination laws..you cannot ( or should not, its unfortunate that you can in some places) deny device to somebody based in something as innate as sexual orientation, or race, or gender, or etc etc. you can't even deny somebody service for their religion which IS a choice . and trem is correct that a lot of times things as simple as one place getting away with discriminating can cause a huge chain reaction and set a precedent.

I give up. People who think it's fine for the government to force people to do something which is against their religious beliefs, people who can't tolerate another's convictions, bullies who want to get their way, even if it means destroying a business and a person's livelihood, who are so brazen in doing so because now they've got the government behind them...I just don't get it. I cannnnot wait until a Muslim or Jewish bakery is targeted. But of course they won't.

kirakonstantin
07-06-2015, 05:10 PM
I give up. People who think it's fine for the government to force people to do something which is against their religious beliefs, people who can't tolerate another's convictions, bullies who want to get their way, even if it means destroying a business and a person's livelihood, who are so brazen in doing so because now they've got the government behind them...I just don't get it. I cannnnot wait until a Muslim or Jewish bakery is targeted. But of course they won't.

I get where you're coming from. I sincerely do. There needs to be a balance between everybody's rights and I'm not sure that was the case here either. Perhaps a clause in anti discrimination lawsuits should provide for whether the discriminated party was subject to unreasonable hardship. Or maybe there's another solution that allows people to coexist without one party holding the other hostage.

simone87
07-06-2015, 05:16 PM
if its the bakery i think you are referring to, it was a pretty hefty fine that might be a bit much, but they did break the law in their state, knowingly. they run a business, so they need to separate out their personal life from that. and i have to disagree with the whole "bullying" thing, its christians who have been bullying gays for centuries, not the other way around. and refusing services would just be another one in a long list of things they've gotten away with forever in this society. i just have a hard time feeling sorry for them i guess?

kirakonstantin
07-06-2015, 05:21 PM
if its the bakery i think you are referring to, it was a pretty hefty fine that might be a bit much, but they did break the law in their state, knowingly. they run a business, so they need to separate out their personal life from that. and i have to disagree with the whole "bullying" thing, its christians who have been bullying gays for centuries, not the other way around. and refusing services would just be another one in a long list of things they've gotten away with forever in this society. i just have a hard time feeling sorry for them i guess?

I know of a housekeeper who fired a lesbian client and almost got hit with a discrimination lawsuit. The reality is that this woman had several gay clients on her roster and fired straight clients for the same shitty behavior. It happens and it's equally wrong.

Just because some Christians have been awful to people does not make it right to turn around and be awful to them. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Trem
07-06-2015, 06:07 PM
There is a balance: you are allowed to have any religious belief you want as long as those beliefs don't harm anyone else. Tolerating anything beyond that on the excuse of religious belief is simply evil and wrong. Preventing someone from doing evil in the name of their religion is not "being awful" to them.

kirakonstantin
07-06-2015, 06:19 PM
There is a balance: you are allowed to have any religious belief you want as long as those beliefs don't harm anyone else. Tolerating anything beyond that on the excuse of religious belief is simply evil and wrong. Preventing someone from doing evil in the name of their religion is not "being awful" to them.

That is an EXTREMELY dangerous prescident to set... What "harms" a person is extremely subjective and can set the conditions for a great deal more bigotry.

Was this couple harmed in any lasting way, beyond hurt feelings? Did this bakery prevent them from having a wedding cake? Did they prevent this couple from getting married? Was there an assault? Did the bakery publish their names with defamatory statements about them? The answer to all of that is no.

Now, if this was BFE and their refusal of service prevented them from having any wedding cake, I can completely see the harm being done. But, in a city where there are gay bakeries, all they had to do was choose another bakery out of the hundred in business in the Portland metro area.

Religious people have rights too and this wholesale attitude that Christians are getting what's coming to.them is just as bigoted as the way some Christians treat homosexuals.

HoolaTwister
07-06-2015, 06:20 PM
^^ Exactly!!

Kellydancer
07-06-2015, 06:34 PM
Honestly I can see both sides on the cake issue. On one hand if someone doesn't agree with it and it goes against their beliefs how far can this go? Let's say a customer comes to me asking me to design a website for dog fighting or a hate group should I be required to take the job? On the other hand it does remind me of what happened where blacks were denied service.

This reminds me of a recent interview with a religious organization. They only hired devout Catholics as they were part of the Diocese. I agreed with this but a friend was rejected because of it. However I believe religious organizations might be allowed to hire on this but not on things like race.

Speaking of the bible, I read it and what we now consider traditional marriage wasn't always so. There was Abraham who had sex with Sarah's maid Hagar to get her pregnant. There was his grandson Jacob who was married to Rachel and Leah and also got their maids pregnant (who were half sisters). Then there was Lot (Abraham's nephew)who got his daughters pregnant. My point is there were many stories that we don't approve of now. If I recall, the only mention of homosexual behavior was two men who had sex with each other and it had to do with Lot. Actually homosexuality was common in early times, especially Greeks who often had male lovers.

Trem
07-06-2015, 06:40 PM
That is an EXTREMELY dangerous prescident to set... What "harms" a person is extremely subjective and can set the conditions for a great deal more bigotry.

Was this couple harmed in any lasting way, beyond hurt feelings? Did this bakery prevent them from having a wedding cake? Did they prevent this couple from getting married? Was there an assault? Did the bakery publish their names with defamatory statements about them? The answer to all of that is no.

Now, if this was BFE and their refusal of service prevented them from having any wedding cake, I can completely see the harm being done. But, in a city where there are gay bakeries, all they had to do was choose another bakery out of the hundred in business in the Portland metro area.

Religious people have rights too and this wholesale attitude that Christians are getting what's coming to.them is just as bigoted as the way some Christians treat homosexuals.

Setting the precedent that you are allowed to discriminate against people based on their sexual orientation is EXTREMELY harmful and it goes far far beyond being able to get a wedding cake. Why people keep making this about a wedding cake like it would somehow stop there is ridiculous. There are no special wedding cake rules, if they are allowed to discriminate EVERYONE is. Quit focusing on the stupid cake.

kirakonstantin
07-06-2015, 06:44 PM
Setting the precedent that you are allowed to discriminate against people based on their sexual orientation is EXTREMELY harmful and it goes far far beyond being able to get a wedding cake. Why people keep making this about a wedding cake like it would somehow stop there is ridiculous. There are no special wedding cake rules, if they are allowed to discriminate EVERYONE is. Quit focusing on the stupid cake.

This is an issue of two protected classes butting heads. We're trading bigotry for sexual orientation for bigotry for religion and that's not ok either.

Trem
07-06-2015, 06:44 PM
This is an issue of two protected classes butting heads. We're trading bigotry for sexual orientation for bigotry for religion and that's not on either.

It is not bigotry to prevent people from doing evil in the name of religion.

kirakonstantin
07-06-2015, 06:47 PM
It is not bigotry to prevent people from doing evil in the name of religion.

I think it's pretty evil for a customer to shut down a business and take away someone's livelyhood, because they didn't get their way. If it'd been a gay owned bakery who turned away a Christian couple, it'd be a LOT different.

eagle2
07-06-2015, 06:53 PM
Often, the same people who would refuse to bake a cake for a gay wedding are the same people who would try to shut strip clubs down or make it more difficult for women to have access to contraception.

eagle2
07-06-2015, 07:02 PM
Also, let's not forget about all of those Christians who voted to prohibit gay marriage in their states and also to pass laws forbidding gays to adopt children.