View Full Version : Why we are STILL 2nd class citizens to ALL cam companies
DeepThoughts
11-19-2015, 09:55 AM
Wow I am loving this thread!
@Sam I feel like your response was more to the point. I 100% agree that having a support team that actually listened and helped would be a huge step and there is really a need for some level of training for those who are just signing up! I have also wondered why we dont always, on every cam site, get to know who has had a great week or who is the biggest earner and I would love to have a pat on the back once in a while when I have a great week.
I remember back during "Streamgate" when Vanessa popped into the SM thread to tell us all they were aware of the problems and were fixing them (do you guys remember that?) Pissed me right off because how many of us had to deal with their cookie cutter responses to the issues for a week or two only to find out they were aware of the issue and also knew where to find us all bitching about it so they could give one or two Blanket responses and be done with us. Actually this is still pissing me off.......
@Issabelle I also really hate how the eastern European girls are treated and the fact that they are forced to join studios is just messed up. I know they have some excuse as to why its necessary and although I do not exactly have evidence to support the opposite my gut tells me they just dont care or there is some sort of extra back scratching going on here. I would love to see those girls given the full percent they are due without the middle man and I wish the Cam Companies would do the same. The fact that they don't does speak volumes!
I think if anything a thread like this is great for pointing others in this industry towards those people who really do play fair like MC. I personally run my own website because there was no MC when I started and now I wouldnt change but having most of us support those who support us is going to be way more powerful or effective then calling to unionize. Still important not to focus on the haters over in GFY. Let them hate and post hateful things and just generate hate amongst themselves. They have the right to do that if thats what they want to do!
DeepThoughts
11-19-2015, 10:01 AM
Maybe they are lazy! They just push girls through to fill out paper work & send in IDs. Did they interview her? Most of this is all done online, they never meet the girls, interview her, show her how the interface of any cam site works, which is daunting to many. Did they show her how to make money? Did they follow up on how she did on the first day? Did they support her in any way to be a sucess? They spent a few hours on emailing back & forth & expect an income for years off of it. Who is lazy again?
Sam
Hey you dont have to explain the "system" to me! Im a Porn Star who got into web camming way back when just like you!! I have been through it as well. My point was that his point is valid because lots of people (men and women) are very lazy and would rather take a 50 for 10mins of piss in their mouth then 50 for two hours of cam work. If your saying that the man who wrote this is lazy then we are in agreement! Like I said, its an issue with people in general!
Sam38g
11-19-2015, 11:57 AM
One of my positions is the lack of support to succeed. The business model of hiring in mass & hope one works out instead of helping a performer go from say $30,000 a year to $60,000 or more.
My bff is in real estate, she is a pure commission based job & signed with a broker which is required. A bad broker does nothing, a good broker sends sales people to motivational seminars, classes on to closer more sales, training class & training class no matter where they are with income levels at that brokerage.
. Only advice we get from cam sites when we want to step up our game is to work more hours, which is a failure on their part. We all come here to get advise on how to make more money, to feel supported in truing to improve & do better financially. Personally lots of the advice has worked for me. Sincerely, hope any advice I gave worked for others.
NONE of it came from a Cam company, I am asking WHY NOT? At best besides told to work more hours, pointed to a page buried deep on each cam site that says "be nice, smile, be chipper". This is the extent of cam sites advice to make money on it. I've even seen them post "Be nice, smile, no matter how demanding & names they call you, eventually they will spend money on you for it". Which we all know is wrong, it runs off other customers to or others join in.
Why do affiliates get perks & support from cam companies that we don't?
Sam38g
11-19-2015, 12:16 PM
Wow I am loving this thread!
@Sam I feel like your response was more to the point. I 100% agree that having a support team that actually listened and helped would be a huge step and there is really a need for some level of training for those who are just signing up! I have also wondered why we dont always, on every cam site, get to know who has had a great week or who is the biggest earner and I would love to have a pat on the back once in a while when I have a great week.
I remember back during "Streamgate" when Vanessa popped into the SM thread to tell us all they were aware of the problems and were fixing them (do you guys remember that?) Pissed me right off because how many of us had to deal with their cookie cutter responses to the issues for a week or two only to find out they were aware of the issue and also knew where to find us all bitching about it so they could give one or two Blanket responses and be done with us. Actually this is still pissing me off.......
@Issabelle I also really hate how the eastern European girls are treated and the fact that they are forced to join studios is just messed up. I know they have some excuse as to why its necessary and although I do not exactly have evidence to support the opposite my gut tells me they just dont care or there is some sort of extra back scratching going on here. I would love to see those girls given the full percent they are due without the middle man and I wish the Cam Companies would do the same. The fact that they don't does speak volumes!
I think if anything a thread like this is great for pointing others in this industry towards those people who really do play fair like MC. I personally run my own website because there was no MC when I started and now I wouldnt change but having most of us support those who support us is going to be way more powerful or effective then calling to unionize. Still important not to focus on the haters over in GFY. Let them hate and post hateful things and just generate hate amongst themselves. They have the right to do that if thats what they want to do!
Completely agree with you. :)
Many well known porn stars refuse to cam because their "Agent" signed them up to every cam site & forever & a day gets a cut out of their end. He gets 15% & she gets 20%. Cam sites honor that agreement & she can never get the full 35%. So because he spend an hour at the most signing her up to all the cam sites, he whether or not is her agent will get paid for her camming on almost every cam site.
Most of them end up hating their agents & refuse to ever earn those guys another dime. So this goes on in the U.S. also, not just Europe & other places. Lots of them were not even aware of it until they tried to sign up to a cam site & make money besides having to fuck & suck or when the industry is under a mortorium. I've gotten those upset calls way to many times.
Sam
Sam38g
11-19-2015, 12:32 PM
Things do change, they do improve. Cam companies do read what we all post on here. One of them will get greedy & think instead of always recruiting new girls, why do we try to keep or get the ones who make money, have a following to work with us.
Maybe they will read this & step up their game.
I remember fighting with Imlive about chargebacks & how they operated. I was told not only by them but by people at cams.com & f4f that chargebacks always will be apart of this biz. Opps, guess that changed.
Once upon a time, I was told that paying girls 50% wasn't possible in this industry. I laughed. Now MFC & CB does. Don't include Naked because you are being paid 40% and they hold back 10% for charge backs permenantly even though they say no charge backs. Wasn't just talking to support either when I didn't like the status quo in the camming industry & this board didn't even exist yet. Several cam site Presidents & owners have on more than one occasion gotten an earful from me.
Smooches,
Sam
FreakyFranky
11-19-2015, 10:22 PM
Great thread. I do think that change can only come about if we continue to stand up for our rights and voice our concerns about this industry and how we're treated. If Wal-Mart (TERRIBLE comparison cuz they're awful to their employees too) took a chunk out of my check every time a customer returned the product I rang up for them, would that be acceptable? Hell no. The company lost money, why does that mean I should lose money for performing a service that we ALL know was totally up to par and that the customer is just being a douche 99.9% of the time? I'm so irritated with the cam industry anymore. They think we're lazy -- THEY are fucking lazy. Making all that money off of us, paying us pennies for what they get, not even directing good traffic or offering incentives, bonuses, anything... If you're not a top cam girl, you're even more invisible.
I just hate that this industry is ran by men... But completely supported by women. I mean, what would happen if half the models on SM just boycotted? Would their income tank? Or would all their customers go to other women? Or would their customers that are regulars to us follow us to the next site? I wonder if the cam site owners realize that we are the backbone of our company -- Without us, they make nothing, and a lot of us bring interesting, unusual things to the sexual cam girl table, things MEN would NEVER bring themselves to do for money in most cases. And yet, we're STILL nothing to them, even while they pay their mortgage and car notes with the money we earned them...
The day will come when cam girls won't take this shit anymore and my opinion is that if ONE cam site could start treating their ladies with some respect and offering a FAIR working situation, then they would be the BEST cam site, because ALL the girls would want to work there and nowhere else... And if they could drive the traffic to support all the girls working there, then they would make THE MOST money, wouldn't they? As they'd have all of our support and all of us working for them. I don't know what part of ... Shit trickles down they don't understand. If you treat your workers like shit, you will eventually run out of quality workers. If you treat them well, you will only gain workers, gain customers, and gain profits.
But alas, we are (mostly, no discrimination!) women in a man's world and just objects. The day will come when they regret treating us this way.
So if you're reading this, big box cam site people... Maybe you ought to listen to us. We're not idiots, we're actually very intelligent and you could stand to learn a thing or two from successful business women like Sam38g instead of just assuming we're all fools. The man that undermines those beneath him will someday find himself beneath those he undermined. It all comes full circle.
loveshooks
11-19-2015, 10:38 PM
Things do change, they do improve
they already are, thank god for that as the current level of misogyny and disrespect for talent in the industry is unfuckingreal.
I remember a while back on one of the webmaster boards enjoying a thread where myself and a cam site owner were mocking psycho customer support emails, and some complete asshole barged in with a hateful diatribe about cam chicas. I just left the thread, even if I was being paid no money in the world is worth subjecting myself to that ish. I figure I've spent 15k in the past two years alone in purchases and service fees from companies and peeps on gfy and xbiz, dude is probably bitter and broke but if he does run an actual business guess the chances that I'll ever spend a dime on any services or products he offers? his loss, if any. not mine.
Recently I saw a thread mocking a very successful performer whom I'm priviledged to know quite well, who prob earns far more than 99.99% of the losers who spent their time invested in that hate. unfuckingreal, assholes assholes everywhere and not a drop of cyanide.
I figure the worst of the worst prob send 20 joins a month overall and have no traffic but reading their ish makes me very relieved that I don't work any sites they promote.
it bears stating though that in adult I've also met some amazing non-performer dudes who are above all the juvenile bullshit. bless their evolved and intelligent hearts because they fucking rock. I really don't think the current division is one of gender, it's honestly just many peeps behind the scenes struggling to come to terms with the fact that performers aren't passive products anymore. Any cammer who doesn't give themselves credit for changing playing a part in that is selling themselves short because camming is a totally different field than old-style porn sites where the behind-the-scenes peeps controlled everything. we are changing the industry simply by demonstrating agency in our own work, don't ever forget or devalue that
point is, every single chica out there who promotes herself and compiles her own client list is in a position of power. due to the nature of the internet all of us are capable of doing that. already I can see more sites and services who get it; that we're subjects and active agents in this industry and not a passive market group. what can you offer me needs to be the new anthem, because that's the future. this is not strictly an indy thing, this is industry-wide. Cam sites need us more than we need them. As a site owner the same is true in reverse; I need y'all far more than y'all need me.
so many companies/promoters have yet to adapt; it's actually pretty sad as I can speak first hand to the numerous tangible benefits of treating colleagues as peers instead of replaceable products. they call us whores, lazy when we act like we don't owe them a paycheck and get upset when we don't respond to unsolicited emails.
shocking that their experiences in dealing with us are so negative ::)
our power is only growing though. ultimately a lot of dudes are in for a rude awakening. the smart ones are already working with us, their/our success will be the tipping point. hope I'm playing a part in some small way
I want to make a point of specifically mentioning Sam and Anon because I think ultimately you're arguing the same point, which is that threads like this don't inherently cause any tangible change. if they can spark peeps to recognize their own value and demand more from the companies with which they work it's a jumping off point, at the very least.
as a final point, this 30% EE model enforced studio crap needs to change, yesterday. power will always be differential in this business and ultimately camming is a maverick/indepedent pursuit but if we could as an industry rally behind one point I'd hope that would be it
fight the powers that be, and such a wicked thread
Tsani
11-19-2015, 11:21 PM
Recently I saw a thread mocking a very successful performer whom I'm priviledged to know quite well, who prob earns far more than 99.99% of the losers who spent their time invested in that hate. unfuckingreal, assholes assholes everywhere and not a drop of cyanide.
I think I know the thread you're talking about and yeah... it made me want to puke the things they were saying. I'm not the best looking cam model out there, I've been bullied on twitter for being an ugly cam model, and after seeing them make fun of a lady who I thought was quite good looking and probably is very good at what she does, I was tempted to browse through other similar threads just to see if I was being the butt of anyone's jokes there. But then I thought why waste my time on this negative bullshit. Do they do age verification to post on gfy? Because sometimes I swear it's just a bunch of 14 year old boys in there.
loveshooks
11-19-2015, 11:36 PM
I think I know the thread you're talking about and yeah... it made me want to puke the things they were saying
just disgusting
ironic though that chica wouldn't have even been on their radar if she wasn't successful. not sure if she's seen the thread but if she does I hope she feels proud to be in the Lady Sonia category of successful performers who bank but don't measure up to the 20 yr old snow bunny fantasies of bitter momma's cellar dwellers.
last laughs are in those MILF pockets, speaks to their talent and desireability that they're some of the few non-MG paysites still thriving. fuck, if they talk shit about you celebrate, that means you're out there where new clients can find you as well.
to work in this industry is to wade through miles of stupidity. we are def forcing a change though. whether we get that change through gritted teeth of disillusioned site/service purveyors is of no consequence as long as it occurs, and we can do that.
we are doing that. the dinosaurs will reap what they sow
Sam38g
11-19-2015, 11:58 PM
Thank you all for posting on this thread, all of your opinions & input are a great value to me. Even if I might disagree or agree your input helps see it from many perspectives just not mine.
Cam sites are greedy. What we all have discussed here is a major void that a smart greedy company will read & do DUH! if they have any experience in a mainstream biz based upon sales. Best way to increase sales is to movitivate, support & reward sales people.
Just tonight saw a top ten cam girl how spends at least 30 to 40 hours a week camming for only one company. She was having trouble with her cam feed, tech support acted like it was all on her end. After reading her venting such frustrations I sympathized with her, suggested another site, once she joined it & went live. I logged on & helped her navigate how it worked. THIS should have been supports job at BOTH companies... The site she cammed on should have listened & helped her resolve any tech issue, despite being a loyal top earner it didn't happen. The new site didn't have anyone there to help her work the cam sites interface, how it all worked & let customers & me advise her. NOT one single person who worked there popped in & offered any assistence.
Disgusting there was no "Let's fix this issue & get you back to making money". No "Thanks for joining our site, let's help you figure out the interface & basics of how this site works". Can bet neither company will send a follow up email tomorrow either. Here was a perfect opportunity for one company to keep a top girl happy & another one to steal her away, both dropped the ball. Neither company valued her at all on a top level or as a newbie.
How many cam companies are out there now? WE have the old guard like LJ, Imlive, cams, ifriends, f4f who are all trying to renovate their images & pretend to be forward thinking & innovating but there contracts read like the exact same crap I hated 10 or more years ago. We have the juggernauts like MFC & SM, with CB really changing the landscaping & being innovative. MFC & SM better be looking over their should at them. Well, naked, ugh...... they don't know who they want to be a private based site or a token based site. There are the European based sites like xlovecams, bongocams & that british one cant recall the name of.
So the cam market & getting top girls is about to get interesting if they want to keep their profits up or improving. More and more top girls are just hustling & being independent due to their fan base & ability to build their own traffic on social media. 90% of porn companies have gone out of biz, affiliates can't make money with them as much any more. Cam sites are what is left standing.
We know you come here & read cam sites. I'm well aware of how it all works & we are sourcing information, sharing it, tearing you apart on every level so we can make an informed decision where to put the hours in & make money. Not as if I haven't warned you for years about this day. We all want to make money, we all want success, not just a few at the top. As many cab companies & hotel chains are aware of now the "Shared Economy" world we live in today.
Sam
DeepThoughts
11-20-2015, 02:09 AM
^^ amen!
BustyVixen
11-20-2015, 07:08 AM
I'm a pretty high earner on SM and for years it was my main source of income. But now, I'm making the same money but working much less on SM due to the low traffic and issues that we all know about. I am doing a lot more Skype and spending some time on MFC and making good money with my cam model store. And has SM once contacted me to see why I am camming so much less and what's going on, can we help? Of course not. They know their profits are down, many top girls have left or are doing what I am. They give zero fucks and I'm not sure why. But the point is is that we will keep evolving, find new ways to make money, more eggs in our baskets. I won't give up! They are the ones shooting themselves in the foot.
kortneykay
11-20-2015, 11:06 AM
I'm not sure why anyone is surprised? Most cam sites and affiliates are virtual pimps. What does a pimp do? They send heux out to hustle while they leech the benefits. Yeah, sometimes daddy might get you some nice outfits and high heels as tools for the job but the heux are still the product and her hustling skills and product are what get her and her pimp paid. Yes, sites send us traffic but most guys will flock to any site that has a ton of humans showing their naked bits and it's free to stare and jerk off anonymously. Really, the only difference between heux and cammodels is that our pimps allow us to work when we want, but neither of us get paid if we don't. And the streets heux work aren't owned by the pimp and neither are the customers. We can build our own boulevard and mine our own clients.
That being said I'm all about being ones own pimp. As long as there's traffic I'm still going to work the big box sites but trust and believe I'm doing my own independent work on the side and eventually I won't need daddy anymore. This is what makes me giggle about that whole GFY thread. These men don't get it and probably never will. Men want sex, women want security (sex, too!) but mainly we want security. I guarantee the sole reason a cammodel doesn't work a ton is because the source she's mining has either dried up or is only trickling. It's not easy giving up 65% to your pimp, putting in 10+ hours a day just so your 35% of the cut is enough to sustain your own bills. But we allow that to happen because we've given these sites permission to treat us the way we do. We know that we can give sex to get money and that's the golden nugget. What we do with that piece of info is entirely up to us.
I tend to only visit GFY when I'm looking for fresh ex gf content for my pso characters and that's about all. Men often times forget that women need security (financial and emotional) and sometimes we forget they need sex. This is just how most of us are built. If a site isn't giving us that security, we won't work or find it elsewhere. Period. I couldn't hide my laughter when one of those idiots mentioned "#1 the cammodel has to be HOT!" LMFAO. Does the man not even know his own species? There are too many ugly trans, women, men, and in between banking and too many fetishes that have fuck all to do with a person's looks. Like, if this is your actual business- get a fucking clue, man! If I were a business owner or affiliate I would've studied each and every single thing possible to do with my product and the consumer. How do they not know (as men) their target market is mainly MEN. How do they not know arm pit hair is a thing and she can be ugly as sin but if those pits are pretty she's got a sale! Yes, men are visual creatures and humans love pretty things but erections are not discriminatory, Sir. You should know that as you have a penis but not a friggin clue.
I encourage all of us to branch out, brand ourselves, and keep as close to 100% of the profits as we can. We are the product, we have the power. It's the reason they treat us like one but we also know it sells and keeps selling and as long as we do our part, we'll be fine and these affiliates will have to play by our rules. I'm still waiting for that day. This issue goes beyond that. We still get around $0.75 vs. $1.00 to the males in corporate settings as well. The fact that independent contracting laws have no clue about how little we receive (a basic human need, if you ask me). I hope one day independent contractor laws force businesses and corporations to give 50% at least to all independent contractors but that's another story. Be your own boss, milk profits the best way you can and fuck what anyone else says. We are the product, not them and we have the ability to put ourselves on the shelves.
justanothercamgirl
11-20-2015, 03:08 PM
What is it you all want?? A Christmas card? A bonus during the holidays? Respect? Really I dont understand this at all because Im not sure what your all wanting. I think its clear when you sign up that this is NOT commission based. You take the job as an independent contractor; Meaning, You own your own business and you farm out your services to another company. So why are you upset about not getting commission? Sam you yourself have said many times that any contract is negotiable so if you want a commission based job then go and try to negotiate for that. Right?
If this isn't a commision-based job and we are all just independent contractors then why are we not getting paid per hour like other independent contractors that I know? :)
justanothercamgirl
11-20-2015, 03:19 PM
MFC does MissMyfreecams and SM has the cammodel link. Those two sites are the top ones right now with CB closing in with their linking program that is open to anyone.
And yes, but with SM's cammodel link the thing is that the moment you decided to stop camming with them or switch over to a daily pay studio is the moment you can kiss all that affiliate money goodbye. If you ask me, it isn't really fair for them to penalize camgirls when the same rules don't apply to their normal affiliates.
Sam38g
11-20-2015, 03:26 PM
Last night MFC sponsored the AVN announcement party.
CB is sponsoring the AVN awards show.
Neither of them are porn companies, they are cam companies. So who is making money in this industry? Cams
How many on those list of nominations work for cam companies, cam on them, Or directly make cam companies money?
Oh, this industry is about to get really interesting.
WE ARE STARS!
WE ARE THE FUTURE!
Keep believing in yourselves as this industry restructures itself.
Sam