View Full Version : Prostitute or Sex Worker or something else?
red.velvet
02-10-2016, 09:30 PM
But have they actually busted those people accepting tips in garters for prostitution though???
They made a law here that lap dancing is illegal. Lap dancing of various degrees (and more) goes down every day and night but you never see police busting anyone. Well it's rare as far as I know.
Police are only forced to bust things that the government or patriarchy isn't make a cut of. They make a cut off strip clubs. I suspect its only illegal there due to mob money laundering through strip clubs. I mean there has to be a specific reason why it would be illegal just there. If its D.C., where a lot of lap dancing isn't allowed, I think it is no coincidence that D.C. happens to be the political capital, and politicians are some of the shadiest people. So.
That is why escorts get busted and very few others do, because its hard to take a cut of direct patron-to-provider cold hard cash exchange. I mean think about it. Escorts can be busted alone for being handed an envelope of cash directly, by a cop. Its so sick. Its all to keep women down, and make us think that escorting is the most shameful because its illegal. All because they can't profit off it so they try to brainwash us. So sick.
Genoveve
02-10-2016, 09:31 PM
True enough, but there is a very special reaction that is almost universal amongst landlords, etc. when it comes to sex workers--especially in certain parts of the country. The female landlords tend to think 'prostitute' and bridle at the thought of them living in their sacred domicile. The men tend to be the same way, but a lot of them also think 'prostitute who will give me a discount or else'.
Kudos to you for having been able to avoid or circumvent this.
My one bff has been honest about her employment in every place she has lived since she began in it, and what's funny is that now that I know my landlady better not only would she not have a problem with what I do but she would totally cheer me on with it. So again, some people will discriminate against it and some wont, just like with everything in life.
I don't doubt that adult entertainers get discriminated against but I have an issue when someone insists that all of society thinks I'm scum because of what I do and that I'm regularly and unknowingly experiencing discrimination because of it. That's not everybody's reality and I don't think people should just expect that that's automatically the way it goes.
red.velvet
02-10-2016, 09:40 PM
You don't get to choose other people's opinions of you. So unfortunately, there's not much you can do except either lie about your sexwork job with a false cover job, or be open about it and accept the discrimination that comes with being a sexworker even if the person smiles to your face and then talks shit beind your back or secretly thinks poorly of you, which happens a lot to sexworkers.
If most people didn't face discrimination or disadvantages (like negative stereotypes) about being a sexworker, majority of the sexwork population would not be lying about, hiding, or downplaying their job. And it wouldn't be as lucrative as it is. There's a reason why sexwork is a lucrative industry and its because it is has a "dirty" or "low moral" stigma attached to it obviously so more women don't do it, which would drive down rates for girls. That has actually happened somewhat when you hear girls talk about 90's or early 00's money compared to now.
You also don't get to choose the privileges and disadvantages you receive by people who are in power.
Its all in evidenced-based sociology textbooks that sexworkers are discriminated against as a whole. It is factual and evidence-based, like science lol. Sociology is a social science after all. There has been so much coverage of institutionalized racism with things like #blacklivesmatter, that there will be more coverage on sexworker equality soon enough, but it won't be enough because... We still have an advantage by being high income earners, and patriarchy does not like that.
lynn2009
02-10-2016, 10:13 PM
Just because two words are related doesn't make them equal. Sex worker is a much broader term that encompasses prostitute, which is someone who has sex for money. And I don't care if it does being up negative connotations or images of street walkers, what the hell does that matter? Strippers who insist on being called entertainers or exotic dancers annoy the fuck out of me too, accept reality or gtfo.
red.velvet
02-10-2016, 10:16 PM
accept reality or gtfo.
Totally agree :). I think a lot of them know that accepting reality might make them not able to accept the experiences they are engaging in, and that's why they don't accept reality. Because if they truly accepted reality, they wouldn't be defensive or bring up a technicality to downplay the reality. Its weird, but common in the sexwork world.
Djoser
02-10-2016, 10:32 PM
But have they actually busted those people accepting tips in garters for prostitution though???
They made a law here that lap dancing is illegal. Lap dancing of various degrees (and more) goes down every day and night but you never see police busting anyone. Well it's rare as far as I know. There's also a law taking your shoes off in the club = prostitute. Weird.
I just think they make ridiculous laws to appease their local citizens but never enforced them. The laws they enforce seem to be geared towards the women working the track maybe since they are easier to catch. Idk.
There's all manner of ridiculous, contrived, atavistic laws on the books all over the USA. Like it's technically illegal to get a blowjob or perform cunnilingus on your own spouse in your own kitchen or living room, in some states.
This was brought home to me (and every stripper, doorman, DJ, etc) a few years back, when the city of Daytona beach--in a pathetic attempt to transform that party town into a 'Family Vacation Destination', tried to shut down the enormous new stripclub Lollipops.
In order to enforce the law against Lollipops, they had to enforce the law against every other stripclub in the city, by checking all the clubs numerous times nightly with uniformed police. This meant that the dancers had to wear grandma's bathing suits. That is no exaggeration either.
Lapdances as performed in most stripclubs around the USA (heavy grinding of the dick, sometimes with the pussy, through various thin layers of clothing) are totally illegal. The laws just aren't being enforced.
Djoser
02-10-2016, 10:35 PM
My one bff has been honest about her employment in every place she has lived since she began in it, and what's funny is that now that I know my landlady better not only would she not have a problem with what I do but she would totally cheer me on with it. So again, some people will discriminate against it and some wont, just like with everything in life.
I don't doubt that adult entertainers get discriminated against but I have an issue when someone insists that all of society thinks I'm scum because of what I do and that I'm regularly and unknowingly experiencing discrimination because of it. That's not everybody's reality and I don't think people should just expect that that's automatically the way it goes.
I hear you and understand fully. But you do know how prudish the vast majority of US citizens are, don't you? I don't associate with them if I can avoid it, but they are sure as shit out there--untold millions of them. They would call me a degenerate pimp for working the clubs, no question about it.
red.velvet
02-10-2016, 10:45 PM
^ Exactly. I'd like to THINK people don't go around badmouthing sexworkers, but I see it all the damn time! I was I could live in a sheltered bubble of naivety, but I'm too involved with everyday civilians to hide from it lol.
Like I said, I'm not "out" about being a sexworker, but a lot of my friends are, and sometimes when they are over, the guy I'm dating will be like "paul totally thinks he is going to fuck melody now just because she's a stripper." and weird comments like that.
Hearing that you have a sexwork job DOES change people's opinion about you. Its a fact. Even if they try to be nice about it, unless they are an ex-sexworker who retired gracefully or a current sexworker, they will totally judge you harshly. The only way to avoid this is to not have any friends lol. I'm pretty sure that is why most "out" sexworkers seem to only hang out with other sexworkers or staff from the club for example.
So while men will be nice to your face, its often because they think you have low morals or will fuck them. And while women may smile to your face, they will later be like "ewwwww" and "how sad, just sad" and try to hide their boyfriend from you thinking you have low morals, or think you have a mental illness. I see it all the time from people who have no idea I'M a sexworker but meet my sexwork friends.
I also find it really strange that every "blue" on this board and "blue" I've talked to in real life has consensus with what Djoser says, yet very few "pinks" are willing to acknowledge it.
I've asked so many of my guy friends and they're always like "dude I'd never tell a girl how I REALLY feel to her face! That would hurt her feelings!" So, as you can see, what people say to your face about sexwork and what they really think are often drastically different.
Genoveve
02-10-2016, 10:46 PM
^^^
^^^Djoser I have not interacted with the vast majority of US citizens so no, I do not claim to know how they would react towards me because of my line of work, or to anything period. I only know how the US citizens that I have come across in my own life experience have reacted.
red.velvet
02-10-2016, 10:52 PM
How people react toward one's face about something, versus their true feelings, especially if it would hurt someone's feelings, are often polar opposites or drastically different. As evidenced by my last post.
I wish I were naive and could choose to not believe the remarks I've heard when they think no sexworker is listening, because believe me, I don't want to :(. That's why I'm not "out" about sexwork.
Djoser
02-10-2016, 11:03 PM
^^^
^^^Djoser I have not interacted with the vast majority of US citizens so no, I do not claim to know how they would react towards me because of my line of work, or to anything period. I only know how the US citizens that I have come across in my own life experience have reacted.
Well it's probably far better that way lol. :D
I am very cynical. But it seems like the majority of people in the US are very judgmental. Especially when it comes to anything concerning sexuality. A dubious benefit of the 'Puritan Heritage'.
Issabelle
02-10-2016, 11:09 PM
Okay, hold up. I'm a bit lost right now. The original question was:
Both "prostitute" and "sex worker" have the same basic definition: A person, usually a woman, who engages in sexual activity for payment.
...
Should the word "prostitute" stay in our vernacular or should we push it out to the more modern "sex worker" description?
But what I'm reading is more or less:
'No, not everyone discriminates against sex workers' VS 'Yes, everyone; that's why people hide what they do.'
And I'm just not sure...what the connection is? Because those two opinions are pretty heavily influenced by personal experience and perspective, for one, and, for another, don't seem to have much to do with the initial question of which term is better. This just feels like arguing in circles at this point...
miss.a.p1600
02-10-2016, 11:12 PM
Lapdances as performed in most stripclubs around the USA (heavy grinding of the dick, sometimes with the pussy, through various thin layers of clothing) are totally illegal. The laws just aren't being enforced.
As it should be. First because grinding, even through thin layers of clothes, till a dude comes is non penetrative sex and would fall into prostitute territory. This is why some clubs have rules about the intensity and duration of lap grinding.
That was my thing is not everyone dances hardcore heavy grind cum in your pants style. Some girls give air dances, some may do lap dances but not grind, some girls dance clothed, some girls change positions frequently, etc
So if law enforcement isn't busting all strippers breaking their strict laws charging them with prostitution and they're not dancing in a way that's crossing into prostitution territory then I have a hard time calling ALL dancers prostitutes. Just the ones that's handling dicks, getting penetrated, playing with sex toys, masturbating, giving and receiving oral especially with clear intent for orgasmic pleasure.
Now if anyone here wants a dance from me to see whether I'd be standard dancer or a dancer/escort/prostitute please message me and I will be the first to come back to this thread and call myself a hooker otherwise I feel like I'm simply a standard dancer giving what I've been told are modest dances.
Okay, hold up. I'm a bit lost right now. The original question was:
But what I'm reading is more or less:
'No, not everyone discriminates against sex workers' VS 'Yes, everyone; that's why people hide what they do.'
And I'm just not sure...what the connection is? Because those two opinions are pretty heavily influenced by personal experience and perspective, for one, and, for another, don't seem to have much to do with the initial question of which term is better. This just feels like arguing in circles at this point...
It's all connected but it's hard having a group discussion on a forum where no one can talk and elaborate and clarify.
red.velvet
02-10-2016, 11:16 PM
Okay, hold up. I'm a bit lost right now. The original question was:
But what I'm reading is more or less:
'No, not everyone discriminates against sex workers' VS 'Yes, everyone; that's why people hide what they do.'
And I'm just not sure...what the connection is? Because those two opinions are pretty heavily influenced by personal experience and perspective, for one, and, for another, don't seem to have much to do with the initial question of which term is better. This just feels like arguing in circles at this point...
The discrimination/hate against sexworkers causes identifying terms to change from being accepted/ideal to basically a slur once the oppressor (society, the average person) negatively charges the word and changes the meaning.
So that's why sexworker is okay and prostitute is not. Its very related and covered on the previous page and a half: https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?207945-Prostitute-or-Sex-Worker-or-something-else&p=2849776&viewfull=1#post2849776
My point was that it is proven that sexworkers are discriminated against or the okay terms to use wouldn't have changed. That is a hallmark of an oppressed group just like, for random example, "oriental" once being okay and now being a slur with "asian" taking its place. Words that develop a negative stigma have to be replaced or the oppressed group remains under the oppressor's control.
miss.a.p1600
02-10-2016, 11:22 PM
^^^ but wouldn't the word SEX + work (work for money) have a negative connotation? Someone said tantric engineer. I'm going with that.
I wish the poll had more words included.
red.velvet
02-10-2016, 11:28 PM
^^^ but wouldn't the word SEX + work (work for money) have a negative connotation? Someone said tantric engineer. I'm going with that.
I wish the poll had more words included.
No because its used as a term of empowerment as of right now. Its less about the linguistics of a word and more about the societal attachment/perception and social stigma (whether negative of positive) which has nothing to do with the root of a word. https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?207945-Prostitute-or-Sex-Worker-or-something-else&p=2849776&viewfull=1#post2849776
Using that logic, black people wouldn't like to be called "black" people because "black" can mean mysterious, hidden, evil, dirty, etc as an actual word. But it isn't a negative charged word in today's society so its okay to use.
This is more about political correctness than anything, which isn't the most logical, but its the guideline of society we are expected to adhere to. Our society values social rules over logic by far. Think about the fake conversations you have with grocery checkers. You are expected to always reply to them with: "I'm good, and how are you today?" because no other answer is a socially accepted one. You could have just cried for 9 hours, but you still have to say you're good.
I vote tantric engineer also, but I could foresee that turning into the cheese equivalent of "exotic dancer" in 2 years. Our world is a strange one.
Issabelle
02-10-2016, 11:42 PM
It's all connected but it's hard having a group discussion on a forum where no one can talk and elaborate and clarify.
I personally don't really see it as being definitively connected, so perhaps you could clarify that for me. It's a lot easier to discuss something when everyone is clear on the relevance of the question and it's tangents.
Right now, I don't see any relationship whatsoever, so I'm asking you to please convince me that there is one.
Based on the original question, I prefer the term sex worker over prostitute because it's all-inclusive and more useful in giving a general definition to our industry than 'prostitute.' I don't say that because I feel that 'prostitute' is synonymous with negative things, but because I feel that it's dated. 50-100 years ago when the term prostitute was probably the most common terms for anyone in the sex work industry, selling sexuality was done in person. Phone sex and camming didn't exist. Stripping was still in the infancy of 'peep shows' which kept a physical 4th wall between viewer and performer (much like the internet does for cammers and the phone does for PSOs). That really leaves in-person options: prostitution/escorting (more or less synonymous) and sugaring (then called being a 'mistress' or 'companion,' realistically). Those last three are basically identical triplets--so similar that you have to mince the details to find the differences. When your most common 'sex work' of the time was, effectively, sex/time in exchange for money/goods, well, prostitute fits.
Nowadays, sex work has evolved to include a lot of different things, many of which do not require in-person contact, and thus the connotation (implied image) that goes along with the word 'prostitute' is no longer representative of all industry members. Ergo, the term 'sex worker' makes more sense, in my mind, for people to use when discussing industry members.
Real example: I'm a camgirl. I don't consider myself a prostitute by definition. You can, of course, parse the definition to say anyone who does anything sexual, regardless of it being 100% solo, counts as prostitution. Very few camgirls will do that because we don't think our jobs match either the connotations or denotation of the term 'prostitute.'
You can certainly make the argument that you, personally, feel that switching to 'sex worker' over 'prostitute' is just a way for us, the 'victims,' to distance ourselves from a word with negative meaning and I'm sure there are women who feel that way. Myself and several of the ladies responding clearly do not feel that way, however, and I don't see how either approach is wrong.
Is there a conservative portion of the population that's going to automatically scream 'you fucking prostitute!' at me like it's an insult for being a camgirl/stripper/escort/PSO/actual prostitute? Sure, of course. Is there a portion of the population--likely the vast majority, yes--who are going to hear any adult-industry related term and yell 'god, you're a whore for pay!' and dismiss you regardless of what your actual job is? Again, of course. Does that necessarily have to be the driving force between preference for the word prostitute over sex worker for every woman? No, no it does not.
miss.a.p1600
02-10-2016, 11:44 PM
I realized the thread was related to political correctness
But just so you know black people didn't like being called "black" cause their skin is not black and not all black people are dark skin they range in skin tone from light to dark. And the term black could be used in a negative connotation for those who are intentionally hateful but black also means Power, Authority, Elegance, Mystery, etc.
No one can control their race. Aside from those being sex trafficked, Every one can control and has a choice to enter adult work. You're comparing apples to oranges and Plus we're not talking about race in this thread.
When I think of pr*stitutes (the responsible ones working their appropriate setting) I think of women who are bold and strong. They challenge the stigmas and stereotypes. They are men or women who get up everyday to provide for themselves or family's and are dedicated.
This is a good link for polite words in lieu of the word prostitute http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/211193/polite-name-for-a-prostitute
*as far as "polite" words: I like lady of the evening, high class call girl, and courtesan
But at the end of the day I highly doubt it matters what words we use because every single one of them is linked to describe the acts society had deemed illegal and immoral.
audritwo
02-11-2016, 12:41 AM
I personally love the word whore. I'm a glorified whore, please. :D
Tourdefranzia
02-11-2016, 08:55 AM
Do you tell your landlord you are a webcam girl and/or stripper? I highly doubt it. I rest my case.
I know, O/T but, In Oregon you can not be discriminated against by your landlord for any legal source of income. The law was first proposed by the medical marijuana industry, but has been widely supported by adult entertainers for obvious reasons.
*This is not true in all states, or even most states. Hell, several states can still discriminate against unmarried couples co-habitating.
wednesday86
02-11-2016, 09:13 AM
meth heads giving $20 bjs= hoes or hookers
classy ladies charging hundreds and thousands for their services= escorts
I never say "whore" much, but I love being called that in bed. Something about it is sexy as hell.
"Sex worker" brings up images in my mind of hot women in bikinis welding or something, I don't know. It's a weird word to me. I never heard it until I joined SW.
Prostitute is just a mouthful. It also makes me think of crack heads and meth heads with missing teeth (probably because the first self proclaimed "prostitute" I ever met was like that.)
Tourdefranzia
02-11-2016, 09:17 AM
But have they actually busted those people accepting tips in garters for prostitution though???
They made a law here that lap dancing is illegal. Lap dancing of various degrees (and more) goes down every day and night but you never see police busting anyone. Well it's rare as far as I know. There's also a law taking your shoes off in the club = prostitute. Weird.
I just think they make ridiculous laws to appease their local citizens but never enforced them. The laws they enforce seem to be geared towards the women working the track maybe since they are easier to catch. Idk.
Don't let your guard down, though. If the owner of the club pisses off someone who has any pull with the cops, a bust could come down any minute. I used to work at a club that had the most squeaky clean reputation in Portland, and it has been busted time and time again. The club always gets away thanks to great lawyers, but their employees have gone to jail.
The club does not have your back, and they will throw the dancers under the bus first to save their own asses. Never forget this!!
Tourdefranzia
02-11-2016, 09:30 AM
^^^ but wouldn't the word SEX + work (work for money) have a negative connotation? Someone said tantric engineer. I'm going with that.
I wish the poll had more words included.
I just wanted to clarify that I only included the two words because there is a conversation going on with the AP on how to describe people in news articles. The currently accepted term is prostitute to describe someone who engages in sexual activity for monetary gain.
As the words are being used currently in the language is much like the word "engineer." Of course there are many sub-categories of engineers, but the heading remains the same. The modern definition of both prostitution and sex work cover a lot of different professions from erotic lit authors to street walkers. The goal is to standardize the term in the media.
I figured it would be a good place to ask, what do you want to be called?
Dominic.2
02-11-2016, 10:49 AM
Tourdefranzia, I voted other because I think a newpaper should elaborate, such as:
sex worker, who works as a(n) ____ .
(fill in the term)
exotic dancer / stripper
webcam model
PSO / PSD
independent escort / high-end call girl / sugar baby
massage girl
porn actress
erotic fiction author
. . .
Although that is not a simple, short job title (like engineer), so maybe that won't fly.
I just wanted to clarify that I only included the two words because there is a conversation going on with the AP on how to describe people in news articles. The currently accepted term is prostitute to describe someone who engages in sexual activity for monetary gain.
As the words are being used currently in the language is much like the word "engineer." Of course there are many sub-categories of engineers, but the heading remains the same. The modern definition of both prostitution and sex work cover a lot of different professions from erotic lit authors to street walkers. The goal is to standardize the term in the media.
miss.a.p1600
02-11-2016, 10:48 PM
Just curious. Do you all consider Kim Kardashian a former 'sex worker'? She was technically star of a porn film made, I mean "leaked", for mass comsumption. From what I hear it wasn't that exciting but I'm sure many dudes got hard and some may have masturbated while watching.
She also reportedly earned half a mil to "escort" a billionaire on a date http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/4872083
If this was sex work/porn would her mom Kris be a madam?
red.velvet
02-11-2016, 11:03 PM
Just curious. Do you all consider Kim Kardashian a former 'sex worker'? She was technically star of a porn film made, I mean "leaked", for mass comsumption. From what I hear it wasn't that exciting but I'm sure many dudes got hard and some may have masturbated while watching.
If this was sex work/porn would her mom Kris be a madam?
I consider her to be somewhat of an erotic glamour model since she created her brand around being ultra curvy with spreads in things like Playboy, as well as many, many implied nudity shoots. Playboy is an adult magazine. The sex tape was just another entry. Obviously all of it was masterminded by Kris, whose intention was to create the closest thing to a sexworker/pornstar, without actually being one and getting the tainted reputation, after seeing Paris Hilton's success only without the sensuality/sexuality that could take it further. Best of both worlds.
Kris would be her agent/manager, not her madam because I'm sure a lot of companies reached out, like Playboy, where Kris didn't do the introduction. So that doesn't make her a madam. Madams advertise and do introductions, but its similar. Kris may have also done madam work, who knows. I wouldn't doubt that many of her girls have been high priced call girls because they're so sex positive and money-motivated.
Lots of celebrities seem to be high priced call girls. I think of Lindsay Lohan who was photographed with that one well known sugardaddy guy, and others. I wouldn't consider them sexworkers because they aren't officially out about what they've done. So it can't be proven. But its obvious. I mean why else are hot young female celebs photographed canoodling with older unattractive men who are worth millions or billions? Its obvious.
I live in Santa Monica so I know how these girls work. The top of the food chain are "models" who show everything but their areolas and vag crack, who also "sugarbaby" because "its not escorting." Its basically being a sexworker, but most refuse to admit they are one. They are basically shooting softcore porn (pornstar) and then having sex with men they'd never commit to who just so happen to give them money (escorting). Kim used this model, and it is a socially accepted one so she gets the benefits of selling sex with the benefits of societal acceptance.
And that was my whole point. If you're not "out" about being a sexworker, even if you're doing sexwork, no one will see you as a sexworker. But if you're out about being a sexworker, people think of you differently even if they smile to your face. These celebs, like Kim, have mastered the art of not being "out" as a sexworker so they can keep a mainstream career and respect that comes with it, all while receiving the benefits of engaging in sexwork.
red.velvet
02-12-2016, 09:02 AM
^I also think that if you have multiple jobs, like celebrities do, you have a huge advantage. In that case, you NEVER have to identify as a sexworker because its not your perceived primary occupation, and that puts you at a huge advantage. I know I have gained privilege by having a stable day job because people perceive that to be my primary occupation, even if I do sexwork on the side and were to make more from sexwork.
This is why celebrities never have to identify as sexworkers.
luvnrockets
02-12-2016, 09:18 AM
Why does Kim Kardashian have to be brought into everythinggggggggggg
miss.a.p1600
02-12-2016, 09:40 AM
^^^haha. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around this prostitute/sex worker thing.
She has a sex tape for public viewing. She's on Porn hub as one of the top celebrity porn stars. She was a paid escort.
I'm just wondering do certain types of women get a pass from being labeled as a sex worker. I only mention her because she is well known.
I know I'm tired of seeing the Kardashian family - everywhere, however just a simple question.
That is all.
luvnrockets
02-12-2016, 09:46 AM
^^^haha. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around this prostitute/sex worker thing.
She has a sex tape for public viewing. She's on Porn hub as one of the top celebrity porn stars. She was a paid escort.
I'm just wondering do certain types of women get a pass from being labeled as a sex worker. I only mention her because she is well known.
I know I'm tired of seeing the Kardashian family - everywhere, however just a simple question.
That is all.
I know, just giving you shit. :) Everyone is entitled to their own interests.
red.velvet
02-12-2016, 09:54 AM
^^^haha. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around this prostitute/sex worker thing.
She has a sex tape for public viewing. She's on Porn hub as one of the top celebrity porn stars. She was a paid escort.
I'm just wondering do certain types of women get a pass from being labeled as a sex worker. I only mention her because she is well known.
I know I'm tired of seeing the Kardashian family - everywhere, however just a simple question.
That is all.
She gets a pass from society because being a sexworker is not her primary career.
Because of this, the average person in society gives it a pass because she is a very successful entrepreneur (clothing and beauty lines, tv, modeling, endoresements, apps, etc) who contributes to society. Because of that, it blocks the ability for people to put her into the stereotypical box of a sexworker which would have included "taking the easy way out" and "really sad" (like they'd often say to sexworkers), because she has a physical resume of accomplishments to fire back with.
And that was my point.
This is a great example of how one would get around sexworker discrimination, and an excellent contrasting example showing how sexworkers are covertly discriminated against and why.
Kitcatt
02-12-2016, 01:36 PM
Okay Red, I've read all of the threads you've started, and I have to ask, why do you keep putting out these threads? All of them are about sex worker discrimination, all of them are you telling everyone that there is sex worker discrimination, which I think none of us would argue with, just the degree. But why do you keep asking since you just tell everyone how their opinion is warped/ delusional/ wrong/ this example is a bad one.
You have another thread where you justify not telling your bf about your sex work, which, hey, that's your business. But you KEEP pushing these threads forward to prove that we should all understand that we are discriminated against.
What are you trying to get at? What exactly are you trying to learn? Or are you really just spinning your wheels here and running these concepts through these threads to justify your own actions?
red.velvet
02-12-2016, 02:57 PM
Okay Red, I've read all of the threads you've started, and I have to ask, why do you keep putting out these threads? All of them are about sex worker discrimination, all of them are you telling everyone that there is sex worker discrimination, which I think none of us would argue with, just the degree. But why do you keep asking since you just tell everyone how their opinion is warped/ delusional/ wrong/ this example is a bad one.
You have another thread where you justify not telling your bf about your sex work, which, hey, that's your business. But you KEEP pushing these threads forward to prove that we should all understand that we are discriminated against.
What are you trying to get at? What exactly are you trying to learn? Or are you really just spinning your wheels here and running these concepts through these threads to justify your own actions?
This isn't my thread, I didn't start it, and I've only started ONE like that lol. There's also ONE other thread, out of my 200 posts spanning 8 months, asking about how escorts talk to their boyfriends about their profession job title as an escort (which has a negative outdated stigma much like prostitute), which I started numerous months ago. You also didn't read any of what I wrote on that thread or you would have seen where I said he DOES know about my sexwork, I just don't use the loaded term "escort" because its pointless. My history is there for everyone to view, I am telling the truth.
I just looked through your posts and you aren't escorting so I'm not sure why that pertains to you or why you were looking at ONE old thread that is directed toward escorts in the topic name.
audritwo
02-12-2016, 03:37 PM
other work has PSO and sexing... which a lot of camgirls are also involved in too. Just FYI.
zerorg
02-12-2016, 08:24 PM
I can not resist adding the following article by Charlotte Shane to this thread
http://www.psmag.com/business-economics/calling-my-work-what-it-is?src=longreads
Omegaphallic
02-13-2016, 01:26 AM
^^^haha. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around this prostitute/sex worker thing.
She has a sex tape for public viewing. She's on Porn hub as one of the top celebrity porn stars. She was a paid escort.
I'm just wondering do certain types of women get a pass from being labeled as a sex worker. I only mention her because she is well known.
I know I'm tired of seeing the Kardashian family - everywhere, however just a simple question.
That is all.
Yeah she's a sex worker, but I have very broad brush for that. I'd concider most mainstream actors and actresses sex workers, because they kiss for a living, a sexually act that even so crack addicted street walkers find too intimate a sex act too do.
And yets be honest an hot A list actresses's nude scenes will generate more orgasms then the average escort will see in her entire career.
Celebrity Skin and simular magazines are big business.
I also concider camera people, make up people, producers, directors, writer ect... in porn sex workers. Erotic novelists and cam girls, phone sex operators, those too.
Dildo manufacters, Pimps, Erotic cartoonists, Dominatrixes, Adult Video Store Clerks, Escorts, Street Walkers, MPAs, Pink Salon Girls (Japanese BJ bars), Fashion Models, pussy pocket designers they all directly or indirectly work towards the same goal, making somebody have an orgasm.
Tourdefranzia
02-13-2016, 12:11 PM
Just curious. Do you all consider Kim Kardashian a former 'sex worker'? She was technically star of a porn film made, I mean "leaked", for mass comsumption. From what I hear it wasn't that exciting but I'm sure many dudes got hard and some may have masturbated while watching.
She also reportedly earned half a mil to "escort" a billionaire on a date http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/4872083
If this was sex work/porn would her mom Kris be a madam?
I think Channing Tatum could be more accurately described as a former sex worker than Kim Kardasian. He was a professional male stripper for a year or two, and it was his primary source of income. I see what K.K. did as more of a publicity stunt. Did she make any money directly from the video or were any monetary gains a secondary result of the video?
Also, getting paid $500,000 for a single evening out with a man defies categorization due to how unusual the request is. If she was getting paid $500k to perform sex with a man in front of an audience or camera, then yes, certainly.
I mean, who wouldn't plaster a smile on her face and go along with a $500,000 date, especially when it is public and high profile?
Margaret Cho IS a former sex worker. Diablo Cody IS a former sex worker. I'd also be willing to be that more than a few famous entertainers today have also tricked or stripped but would never admit it.
red.velvet
02-13-2016, 12:40 PM
I think Channing Tatum could be more accurately described as a former sex worker than Kim Kardasian. He was a professional male stripper for a year or two, and it was his primary source of income. I see what K.K. did as more of a publicity stunt. Did she make any money directly from the video or were any monetary gains a secondary result of the video?
Also, getting paid $500,000 for a single evening out with a man defies categorization due to how unusual the request is. If she was getting paid $500k to perform sex with a man in front of an audience or camera, then yes, certainly.
I mean, who wouldn't plaster a smile on her face and go along with a $500,000 date, especially when it is public and high profile?
Margaret Cho IS a former sex worker. Diablo Cody IS a former sex worker. I'd also be willing to be that more than a few famous entertainers today have also tricked or stripped but would never admit it.
Yes Kim sold the tape and its rights to Vivid for distribution for 1million I believe it was. Good read: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/08/rumors-kris-jenner-orchestrated-kim-kardashian-sex-tape_n_1755831.html
DonaDiabla
02-13-2016, 04:34 PM
Omegaphallic,
I agree with almost everything but the fashion model one.Fashion Models goals is not to make your orgasm....they are there to sell clothes. Secondly, most people in the adult industry can be classified as sex workers. So everyone from Street walkers to Pink Salon Girls are sex workers. We can also add sugar babies, green card marriage brides, and gold diggers are sex workers as well but they typical do not like to think of them as that. Now, many people sees sugaring, gold digging, and green card marriages as not sex work. However, you still exchange money plus gifts for sexual favors and/or companionship. :)
Yeah she's a sex worker, but I have very broad brush for that. I'd concider most mainstream actors and actresses sex workers, because they kiss for a living, a sexually act that even so crack addicted street walkers find too intimate a sex act too do.
And yets be honest an hot A list actresses's nude scenes will generate more orgasms then the average escort will see in her entire career.
Celebrity Skin and simular magazines are big business.
I also concider camera people, make up people, producers, directors, writer ect... in porn sex workers. Erotic novelists and cam girls, phone sex operators, those too.
Dildo manufacters, Pimps, Erotic cartoonists, Dominatrixes, Adult Video Store Clerks, Escorts, Street Walkers, MPAs, Pink Salon Girls (Japanese BJ bars), Fashion Models, pussy pocket designers they all directly or indirectly work towards the same goal, making somebody have an orgasm.
Bahuba
02-14-2016, 04:48 AM
Margaret Cho IS a former sex worker. Diablo Cody IS a former sex worker. I'd also be willing to be that more than a few famous entertainers today have also tricked or stripped but would never admit it.
You are very correct. So many B, C, and D list actresses are available for the magic number. As for having a "past", it is said that Jennifer Lawrence herself was a sex worker when she moved to Manhattan as a teenager. It hasn't stopped her from being a good actress, and it shouldn't.
Omegaphallic
02-14-2016, 12:13 PM
Omegaphallic,
I agree with almost everything but the fashion model one.Fashion Models goals is not to make your orgasm....they are there to sell clothes. Secondly, most people in the adult industry can be classified as sex workers. So everyone from Street walkers to Pink Salon Girls are sex workers. We can also add sugar babies, green card marriage brides, and gold diggers are sex workers as well but they typical do not like to think of them as that. Now, many people sees sugaring, gold digging, and green card marriages as not sex work. However, you still exchange money plus gifts for sexual favors and/or companionship. :)
Because dudes read Sports Illustrated Swim Suit Edition and watch that Victoria Secret Fashion show for the Fashion?
Yes the majority of Fashion work is about the clothes and if that's all a model does then no he or she is not a sex worker, but if they branch out, and many do, into stuff like the two above examples or Maxim and loaded, the Zoo, etc... Then yes that's spank bank material masquarading as Fashion to gain a veneer of "respectiblity", then yes they've moved into sex worker territory.
Honestly I prefer a chick that can be honest with herself about it, like yep I'm a sex worker or whore or whatever instead of well it doesn't count as that become "X" reason of rationalization, so that they can feel like "respectible" or classy, ect...
and can look down at the ones that are more honest.
"This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man." Shakespear.
I've written a couple of porn novels and made some money and before that I've written stories in exchange for free porn, so I've effectively caused orgasms in men and women I've never even met, in exchange for porn and money.
Does that make me a sex worker, yes, I make money getting people off, I'm a literary whore and I'm happy about that.
I don't bullshit myself with its not porn its erotic or art, to make myself sound self important or like my sexuality is more valid then what someone else does, its porn, it has a purpose, to bring sexual pleasure to people.
red.velvet
02-14-2016, 12:25 PM
I don't bullshit myself with its not porn its erotic or art, to make myself sound self important or like my sexuality is more valid then what someone else does, its porn, it has a purpose, to bring sexual pleasure to people.
The inherent problem is that women are beautiful, and the average man is ingrained to be attracted to a young well kept woman no matter what he does to try and stop it. This is a problem because women don't want to be objectified, hence feminism, but they will always be objectified because men are biologically hardwired to do that even if they don't want to.
This becomes a problem with a pretty girl who poses suggestively (even if she isn't having sex) because she IS a sexworker if her job is to sexually excite men. Even if she doesn't think of herself as a sexworker, she is because she is performing sex work. Men will see her as a sex object, and thus a sexworker, then judge her for sexually exciting other men professionally.
The reason why celebrities are often excluded from the actual backlash of sexworker shaming is because they have so many other jobs on their plate (entrepreneurship, endorsement deals, clothing/beauty/home furnishing lines, etc) that their would-be title of "sexworker" takes a back a seat and is looked at as more of an advertising avenue (sex sells!) for their other businesses. So instead of "damaged, futureless sexworker" their stereotype is turned into "smart, successful businesswoman." This is why having other baskets outside sexwork is ESSENTIAL, in my opinion, to be taken seriously by quality men and by the average person in the world.
They don't call it "sex sells" for nothing. Anything seductive or sensual, regardless if there's actual penetration, is selling sex. That is a sex worker, you are selling sex lol. And would the other businesses be as successful without the use of selling sex? Hell no. So they get a pass.
And there you have it.
22lligm
02-14-2016, 12:56 PM
Okay I really don't think you can open up the term sex worker to any female who looks sexy in an ad or movie or whatever you're referring to. I mean now you could consider a bartender at a regular bar who dresses somewhat sexy is a sex worker because some men might objectify her? You're a sex worker if your job is to literally 'sexually excite' men thru having sex, stripping, phone sex or whatever else. You aren't a sex worker just because you look sexy and men objectify you.
And why does it matter if 'quality men' take you seriously? That is definitely more of a personal issue and not something broad all sex workers need to keep in mind. I'm aware people may judge me if I tell them I'm a stripper but that's life and I know I'm not a 'damaged, futureless sexworker' so I don't care. Opening up the term sex worker to cover all women who look sexy in their profession just sounds like a way you are justifying to yourself why your job should be okay by society's standards. Not sure why that is so important though.
tigershoes
02-14-2016, 12:59 PM
Because dudes read Sports Illustrated Swim Suit Edition and watch that Victoria Secret Fashion show for the Fashion?
Yes the majority of Fashion work is about the clothes and if that's all a model does then no he or she is not a sex worker, but if they branch out, and many do, into stuff like the two above examples or Maxim and loaded, the Zoo, etc... Then yes that's spank bank material masquarading as Fashion to gain a veneer of "respectiblity", then yes they've moved into sex worker territory.
Honestly I prefer a chick that can be honest with herself about it, like yep I'm a sex worker or whore or whatever instead of well it doesn't count as that become "X" reason of rationalization, so that they can feel like "respectible" or classy, ect...
and can look down at the ones that are more honest.
"This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man." Shakespear.
It's interesting where the line is drawn in fashion modeling. As someone who online shops way too much, I see the extremely thin girls modeling street clothes on websites for Zara, H&M, Topshop, and American Apparel, and they certainly don't appear to be trying to provoke a sexual reaction. But the same girls will appear on the lingerie page of the website in just a bra and panties - still selling to women, as I doubt that many guys peruse the lingerie section of H&M's site for kicks, but now they're basically wearing the same thing as a Victoria's Secret model. American Apparel puts them in suggestive poses, too. Now, you could say that the job of a Victoria's Secret model is also to sell to women, but would this happen so effectively if men around the world didn't idolize them and use their pics as spank bank material?
Certainly at the level where a woman's customer base is obviously horny men, she is a sex worker. I've definitely met women in non-escort niches, including stripping, who insisted that they weren't; this seems to have become more rare in the last ten years, though. I think this is partly due to the de-stigmatization of escort work among non-escort sex workers. Just in my experience, a lot of them used to see anything involving the genitals as beyond the pale; now, there seems to be a general consensus that that stuff is just at the farther end of a continuum on which you definitely fall if you're purposely giving men boners and having them go home and masturbate about you.
Genoveve
02-14-2016, 01:10 PM
Opening up the term sex worker to cover all women who look sexy in their profession just sounds like a way you are justifying to yourself why your job should be okay by society's standards. Not sure why that is so important though.
Totally agree.
simone87
02-14-2016, 01:11 PM
I have to very much disagree with Kim k supposedly getting a pass..she's been called every sex shamey gendered insult in the book on the regular, because of the sex tape and nude modeling. I also think it's quite a bit more complicated than having eggs in more than one basket.."im an interior designer, baker, and a lady of the night!," what do you think is going to stand out to the "average person in society" you're concerned with impressing? Actresses are shamed all the time for doing nude scenes but they get more of a pass because it's supposedly for "art" or other contrived reasons they come up with. It's a clear double standard that I think is worth exploring but Idk if I agree with the "eggs in more baskets" thing. I also totally disagree with the " ingrained to be objectified by men" thing but that's neither here nor there. Sex does sell, this culture is fucked in at we are all dying to see a titty but as soon as a woman shows you one, she's a ho..especially if it's her gaining something from her own body and using her own sexuality instead of men using it. Idk maybe I've gone off track lol. Also, "quality man"thing? I thought you were about sex worker empowerment?
Genoveve
02-14-2016, 01:55 PM
I have to very much disagree with Kim k supposedly getting a pass..she's been called every sex shamey gendered insult in the book on the regular, because of the sex tape and nude modeling.
Agreed I constantly see her being slut-shamed. Plus people constantly write off her immense success by saying 'Well it's only because of a sex tape,' because God knows publishing a sex tape automatically equals becoming a multimillionaire many times over and becoming the most famous person in the world. I mean really if publishing a sex tape just automatically led to those things everyone would do it.
red.velvet
02-14-2016, 02:16 PM
Okay I really don't think you can open up the term sex worker to any female who looks sexy in an ad or movie or whatever you're referring to. I mean now you could consider a bartender at a regular bar who dresses somewhat sexy is a sex worker because some men might objectify her?
No because men are not masturbating to a bartender's image, and she is not going out of her way to knowingly take a job where she is required to take sexual images or video to sell.
In addition, her main job description is making and serving drinks. This is why she gets a pass even if she had done lots of sexy photoshoots to use for promo (which is not a normal bartender thing which means she is not a sexworker). This is the concept I'm talking about when I say someone gets a pass.
If someone were to masturbate to a female bartender, it would be illegal and he would get arrested, because she did not sign up for that.
red.velvet
02-14-2016, 02:17 PM
I have to very much disagree with Kim k supposedly getting a pass..she's been called every sex shamey gendered insult in the book on the regular, because of the sex tape and nude modeling.
That's just curvy women in general. They will forever be slut shamed because men AUTOMATICALLY in their head think of curvy women as highly sexual. That alone just proved my point about how women are all automatically objectified.
Paris Hilton who is not curvy, is never called a sex worker. Its just Kim because she is curvy. Both have sex tapes and have done implied nudity shoots.
Some people call Kim K a sexworker, but most do not now because of her success. She has said this herself in the link I pasted above.
red.velvet
02-14-2016, 02:21 PM
I also totally disagree with the " ingrained to be objectified by men" thing but that's neither here nor there. Sex does sell, this culture is fucked in at we are all dying to see a titty but as soon as a woman shows you one, she's a ho..especially if it's her gaining something from her own body and using her own sexuality instead of men using it. Idk maybe I've gone off track lol. Also, "quality man"thing? I thought you were about sex worker empowerment?
Sorry but every man will agree with that. They have a compulsion to have sex with every attractive woman they see. They think about it, even if they do not want to or try to stop it. And I GUARANTEE you that every man who has been around you for more than 1 minute has asked himself if he would fuck you or not. No matter how much a woman does not want to be objectified, biology counteracts that.
Its biology. We cannot change biology or else we would have by now because it doesn't vibe well with the culture of the world now. Women would not eternally strive for youth if biology didn't run the real world. Ingrained biology like that is so powerful because humans would have died off by now if it wasn't.
Its no coincidence that very old wealthy men always try to date young 20 somethings. Its because of biology, and men with a lot of money can have their pick of the litter. That is a classic example showing how biology always wins. And we can disagree with biology all we want, but it will always win. I mean if that were case, men would marry women they weren't attracted to because they could suddenly change biology and their compulsion to fuck/marry young beautiful women. But no, it doesn't work like that. I know these things, and am realistic and can face the real reality of a situation.
I am about sexworker empowerment or I wouldn't be a sexworker obviously. I am just realistic. Just like you state that women should be allowed to use their body (it doesn't mean that there's no consequences like men secretly judging them), women should be allowed to choose if they want to date established attractive quality men or not, and that doesn't make you any less personally empowered. Making your own informed choices is empowerment. But that also doesn't mean there are no consequences or reactions to your choices that you may not like or agree with.
I know these things can be tough to hear or accept, but its reality. There are always exceptions to every rule, but these are general rules.