View Full Version : NYC Could Lose More Than Half Its Strip Clubs
Nyla19
09-13-2018, 03:36 PM
I'm not too familiar with NYC, but even with strict zoning laws, wouldn't there still be a decent amount of locations available in a city the size of New York? Do you you think it would be feasible for some clubs to move outside the city, maybe to North Jersey?
Northern NJ is a very expensive suburb. I would think it would be extremely hard to open a new place.. Big time money would have to come into play. And a huge greasing of palms. And even after that, I would imagine the zoning boards won't allow for it. And the area is extremely congested. I know the area well.
arielbriel
09-14-2018, 12:45 PM
This is going to be crazy because there is just not enough space for all the dancers that would be out of work. Not to mention staff and management positions. If they shut down 12 clubs with let's say 100 reliable dancers on their roster (girls that work everyweek- house girls so to speak), that's 1200 dancers without a job. The remaining 8 clubs would have to take at LEAST 150 dancers each upping their quota from 100 to 250 dancers. Now this isn't Vegas, many of these remaining clubs are tiny such as Vivid, Hoops, and Sapphire 39th st. These are not large clubs by any means. There are not enough private rooms in these clubs for girls to be successful. You would be waiting in line for a private room. This actually happens now in the clubs during our high season, especially in December and it's a shit show then too. The guy gets tired of waiting and bounces and you lose the sale, it's horrible. Ultimately there's girls that will never get a job in the city again because the standards will be impossibly high.
Optimist
09-15-2018, 04:17 PM
I have no clue why nyc dancers don't make a fuss over a club charging a customer x dollars and giving you 30 percent plus make you pay house fees! Maybe if the clubs were stricter in hiring out of town dancers and maintain loyalty to their lical dancers: That's the only way I can think of to address the oversaturation issue.
The problem that we've had since the 90s is NYC is a Sanctuary City and that means an unstoppable supply of desperate illegal immigrants. Legal citizens could and did stand up to management. So, we made 20-25 an hour base pay even in places like Flashdancers! They began hiring Brazilians working illegally, overstaying tourist visas... They'd work for much less and for FREE. That was unheard of back then. A few years later they began to hire Russians who took it one step further, PAYING to work. Some clubs began to rely heavily on underground Russian agencies. So it was 50% American freelancers and 50% Russians and Brazilians. By the 2000s it was 90% illegal immigrants. That's the destructive power of having desperate illegals who can not fight because they can notrisk being fired or interacting with Law Enforcement.
So when you discuss dancing in NYC and employees applying pressure, that supply of workers ensures they don't EVER have to follow the law or be even minimally decent and protective.
yaya_cash
09-15-2018, 10:24 PM
The problem that we've had since the 90s is NYC is a Sanctuary City and that means an unstoppable supply of desperate illegal immigrants. Legal citizens could and did stand up to management. So, we made 20-25 an hour base pay even in places like Flashdancers! They began hiring Brazilians working illegally, overstaying tourist visas... They'd work for much less and for FREE. That was unheard of back then. A few years later they began to hire Russians who took it one step further, PAYING to work. Some clubs began to rely heavily on underground Russian agencies. So it was 50% American freelancers and 50% Russians and Brazilians. By the 2000s it was 90% illegal immigrants. That's the destructive power of having desperate illegals who can not fight because they can notrisk being fired or interacting with Law Enforcement.
So when you discuss dancing in NYC and employees applying pressure, that supply of workers ensures they don't EVER have to follow the law or be even minimally decent and protective.
Just like the clubs and their owner figure the girls are more likely to tolerate more in this recent economy or market, for whatever reason/ing.
Nyla19
09-17-2018, 11:10 AM
And the manager Rosewood now has doesn't enforce much.
He hangs out with the entertainers, gawks and invites himself to touch their bodies. The prior management and staff were policing milage on the floor. And they would tell you that you could go to VIP... It wasn't a crowded club like it is now. However, the club was half-full with customers better behaved, or was willing to pay more likely if they misbehaved. I can count on my hand working previously there customers being absolute asses who potentially ruined my night. Now, it's like every night I was there it was bad.
Rosewood is Headquarters now?
Nyla19
09-17-2018, 01:41 PM
So this all goes back to the Guiliani days. And the New York State court of appeals has finally made a decision on it. There might be only 4 to 8 clubs left in NYc when the dust has cleared.:(
yaya_cash
09-20-2018, 01:18 PM
Rosewood is Headquarters now?
And the manager Rosewood now, once-HQ, has doesn't enforce much. He hangs out with the entertainers, gawks and invites himself to touch their bodies. The prior management and staff were policing milage on the floor, lap dance couches. And they would tell you that you could go to VIP... It wasn't a crowded club like it is now. However, the club was half-full with customers better behaved, or was willing to pay more likely if they misbehaved. I can count on my hand working previously there customers being absolute asses who potentially ruined my night. Now, it's like every night I was there it was bad.
I wonder if predators are reading this to use to do bad in the club?
Nyla19
09-21-2018, 11:20 AM
^^^ thanks for the info. I've experienced the same situation before. I'm sorry! That's a shame!
yaya_cash
09-21-2018, 06:46 PM
^^^ thanks for the info. I've experienced the same situation before. I'm sorry! That's a shame!
Maybe it has changed with management and the regulation in club since I've been there. Although, many of the customers just seem different, much ruder while much less willling to spend.
Eric Stoner
02-15-2021, 10:32 AM
Thanks to Covid and its mismanagement by both State and City, one question is how many NYC strip clubs will eventually reopen ? Many have been effectively closed for a year. In contrast , Florida and Texas clubs have survived albeit with numerous safety rules and procedures.
NYC restaurants have been hammered. At least a third will NEVER reopen.
Worse yet, a big chunk of the customer base for both types of businesses have literally headed south.
John Catsimatidis has said he will build in Miami if DeBlasio tries to block his Coney Island expansion plans.
Faith in NYC's future was always partly based on the belief that the productive , talented and innovative would never abandon the City. That they would remain and lead the way to yet another recovery. As they did after the 1970's Fiscal Crisis and Carter Recession ; after the Dinkins Disaster ; after 9/11 and after the 2007-8 Financial Crisis. But like Tom Brady turning his back on Boston after two decades so too are many of the movers and shakers in NYC.
Why ? Lousy political leadership ; lawless streets and subway platforms ; uncollected trash ; growing homelessness ; closed schools ;increased crime and almost every business struggling just to stay open.
The City and State NEED the "1%'ers " to lead them out of the current hole. Unfortunately Dum Dum DeBlasio and King Andrew don't appreciate that about 38,000 earners with incomes of $1 million or more pay 43% of NYC's income taxes. After helping hold the line against taxing the rich in past years King Andrew now wants to challenge California for the most counter-productive tax policy of any state and raise taxes on those earning over $5 million a year. For a combined City-State rate of 14.7% ; "the highest in the nation" King Andrew said proudly. He also wants a "mansion tax" on sales of properties over $2 million and a proposed stock transfer tax.
Dum Dum DeB has made his disdain for the wealthy clear. He has clearly told them to "like it or leave" and that is exactly what many of them are doing. William Rudin ,Ken Langone, David Koch and Michael Bloomberg no longer pay City Income taxes. Carl Icahn is relocating to Florida. So is Ken Griffin's Citadel. AllianceBernstein is going to Nashville. Goldman Sucks is moving its Asset Management Division to Florida and the NYSE has warned it will pack up and leave if N.Y. imposes a stock transfer tax.
A lot of wealthy New Yorkers were leaving BEFORE the Covid crisis and mess. About 36,500 upper income earners from the NYC Metro area per year. That has grown to almost 100,000 per year. Statewide it is at least 300,000 per year. That's just N.Y. Now add in similar numbers for N.J. and Connecticut and the long term prospects for the skin biz in NYC do not look so good.
Like other players followed Tom to Tampa, other businesses and individuals are following the first wave of billionaires to leave. Not just millionaires but a LOT of well paid , highly skilled employees. For years Brady gave New England a hometown discount so they could sign enough other talent to enable them to win. When he no longer felt the love from New England he left for Tampa and a market rate two year contract with NO state or local income tax.
rickdugan
02-15-2021, 01:28 PM
Very nicely summarized Eric. NY and CT were already becoming expensive places to do business before the pandemic and firms were indeed starting to migrate out, but the combo of the pandemic shutdowns and the yet harsher burdens they intend to place on their higher income residents are dramatically accelerating these activities.
Before the pandemic, at least NYC had cultural and entertainment offerings to entice high skilled labor to live in the city, especially younger talent, which in turn kept a number of financial services firms tethered to the city. But after a year of shutdowns, people adjusted their lifestyles out of necessity and found replacements for those offerings. Also, after a year of functioning with remote workforces, financial services firms have discovered that this can be a perfectly viable long-term operating model, at least in some partial form. Hence they are no longer tied to a specific geographic location in order to retain their workforces, but instead can rely upon technology to help keep people engaged.
CT's strip clubs were already on the ropes before the pandemic due to loss of affluent customers to places like FL and TN - I can only imagine how many will be left when this all shakes out. I think that NYC and NY state have also accelerated the demise of NYC clubs and many other businesses simply by showing people that they could do without the city.
I am actually saddened by this as I started my business in NYC and it will always hold a special place in my heart. But you can't shut down schools, businesses and entertainment venues for a freakin' year, all while continuing to ratchet up the financial burdens on people, without serious consequences.
arielbriel
02-15-2021, 01:29 PM
Did you write that yourself?
Well as of right now 4 clubs in Manhattan are open and one in queens out of literal dozens.
Eric Stoner
02-15-2021, 01:52 PM
They are ? Which ones ? I know of PRIVATE parties that are VERY quietly going on. I know a lot of gals have switched to Onlyfans to do their stripping.
arielbriel
02-15-2021, 02:07 PM
Yes, I know ALL about the private parties LOL. OF doesn't pay what stripping in NYC does. Most girls tried it but failed miserably. Strippers that are used to easy money are NOT down with the work that goes into online content creation/cam/etc. I know, I did it...pretty successfully but I was trying HARD. I'd rather strip ANY DAY.
eagle2
02-15-2021, 04:15 PM
I am actually saddened by this as I started my business in NYC and it will always hold a special place in my heart. But you can't shut down schools, businesses and entertainment venues for a freakin' year, all while continuing to ratchet up the financial burdens on people, without serious consequences.
The reason why so many schools and businesses have had to shut down for a year is because stubborn people like you opposed any and every effort to stop the virus from spreading, and some of those stubborn people included governors and the President of the United States. If we shutdown everything back in late Feb. or early March, and made an all out effort to expand testing, we could have safely reopened long ago. Instead, because we only did things halfway, and some states did practically nothing at all, the pandemic has been dragging on and on. In other countries where they did take the necessary measures right from the start, life is back to normal. Back in November, Australia was safely having rugby matches with 50,000 people in attendance (https://twitter.com/NRL/status/1329037775711027201). Yesterday, Australia had 6 new cases of covid and zero deaths. The US had over 66,000 new cases and over 1,000 deaths.
eagle2
02-16-2021, 05:23 AM
Here's an article explaining how Australia was able to contain the virus and safely reopen:
https://theweek.com/articles/966581/australia-still-doing-lockdowns-right-way
From the above article:
The main reason can be seen in the lockdown that has taken effect in the state of Victoria in Australia this week. Its capital city, Melbourne, has seen a cluster of cases of the dangerous U.K. variant of the coronavirus in a quarantine hotel, and therefore the government has triggered a very strict lockdown lasting for five days starting Saturday. That kind of hair-trigger containment reaction is why Australia has been able to be largely open and virus-free for much of the last year — they halted the spread, and could then let up on containment. It makes for a depressing contrast with the U.S. and most of Europe, where halfhearted containment measures are still unpleasant but do not squelch the virus, and so drag on forever.
rickdugan
02-16-2021, 06:16 AM
The reason why so many schools and businesses have had to shut down for a year is because stubborn people like you opposed any and every effort to stop the virus from spreading, and some of those stubborn people included governors and the President of the United States. If we shutdown everything back in late Feb. or early March, and made an all out effort to expand testing, we could have safely reopened long ago. Instead, because we only did things halfway, and some states did practically nothing at all, the pandemic has been dragging on and on. In other countries where they did take the necessary measures right from the start, life is back to normal. Back in November, Australia was safely having rugby matches with 50,000 people in attendance (https://twitter.com/NRL/status/1329037775711027201). Yesterday, Australia had 6 new cases of covid and zero deaths. The US had over 66,000 new cases and over 1,000 deaths.
Baloney. Everything was initially shut down for months nationwide and it did not go away. We've argued all of this before. Anyone who thinks that you could replicate in the U.S. what a handful of tiny isolated countries did is out of touch with reality. Case in point: What has the current President done that is materially different than his predecessor? Nada because his powers are limited. Did the most onerous restrictions in any state prevent it from spreading? Maybe, maybe not, but CA had its most recent surge DESPITE all of those restrictions. It has also been pointed out by many epidemiologists that the virus was likely here months before we originally believed, initially confused with other common ailments.
In a country as large as the U.S. with its international traffic and the freedoms enjoyed by its citizens, a highly contagious virus was never going to be completely contained. Leaders with courage and clarity of thought, leading from the front instead of the rear, understood all of this early on and decided that balance was necessary, doing what we could to protect the most vulnerable while not firebombing our children's education and local businesses in the process. The longer this pandemic goes on, the more that people are starting to realize that this was the right approach all along.
Here in FL my kids have been in school since August while kids in NY, CA and other places (especially low income kids) fall further and further behind. Our stores, restaurants and even strip clubs are thriving (at least the ones that survived the initial shutdowns) while those in other places die permanent deaths. It is both sad and, as the science continues to tell us, especially with schools, represents a higher price than was justified.
Eric Stoner
02-16-2021, 09:00 AM
Rick is right. Florida has had far less restrictions than Cali, N.Y or N.J. Their case load is lower ; their hospitalization rate is lower and they've had far fewer deaths. Primarily because DeSantis kept Covid OUT of nursing homes while Cuomo and Murphy held the door open and mandated that Covid patients be put in their nursing homes.
There are some doctors that say that lower death rates in the Sun Belt can be related to higher Vitamin D levels thanks to more sun. That might be part of it.
The BIG difference is that Florida has much lower unemployment and greater economic growth than states that had much stricter lockdowns. The wealthy are leaving the Northeast in droves and moving to Florida. 3 states with the highest death rates are... wait for it Eagle ... are you sitting down ? ... California , New York and New Jersey.
Florida also has one of the lowest rates of unused vaccines. They have copied Israel and put as many shots into as many arms as possible. Regardless of race , income level , home address etc. N.Y. and N.J. have some of the highest rates of vaccines not being used. N.Y. has at least 1 million doses waiting for an arm. N.J. and Connecticut have similarly high percentages.
Eric Stoner
02-16-2021, 09:02 AM
Here's an article explaining how Australia was able to contain the virus and safely reopen:
https://theweek.com/articles/966581/australia-still-doing-lockdowns-right-way
From the above article:
The main reason can be seen in the lockdown that has taken effect in the state of Victoria in Australia this week. Its capital city, Melbourne, has seen a cluster of cases of the dangerous U.K. variant of the coronavirus in a quarantine hotel, and therefore the government has triggered a very strict lockdown lasting for five days starting Saturday. That kind of hair-trigger containment reaction is why Australia has been able to be largely open and virus-free for much of the last year — they halted the spread, and could then let up on containment. It makes for a depressing contrast with the U.S. and most of Europe, where halfhearted containment measures are still unpleasant but do not squelch the virus, and so drag on forever.
And New Zealand did a mass faint and locked down all over again thanks to a grand total of 3 ( THREE ! ) new cases of Covid.
Eric Stoner
02-16-2021, 09:04 AM
Add New Orleans to the nation's tale of woe. NO Mardi Gras this year. The brilliant Mayor ordered all the bars closed putting some long time local institutions like Markey's and Victory ( black owned btw ) on death watch.
Eric Stoner
02-16-2021, 09:05 AM
Yes, I know ALL about the private parties LOL. OF doesn't pay what stripping in NYC does. Most girls tried it but failed miserably. Strippers that are used to easy money are NOT down with the work that goes into online content creation/cam/etc. I know, I did it...pretty successfully but I was trying HARD. I'd rather strip ANY DAY.
You SAID 4 clubs were open in Manhattan. I asked you : Which ones ?
Eric Stoner
02-16-2021, 09:11 AM
The reason why so many schools and businesses have had to shut down for a year is because stubborn people like you opposed any and every effort to stop the virus from spreading, and some of those stubborn people included governors and the President of the United States. If we shutdown everything back in late Feb. or early March, and made an all out effort to expand testing, we could have safely reopened long ago. Instead, because we only did things halfway, and some states did practically nothing at all, the pandemic has been dragging on and on. In other countries where they did take the necessary measures right from the start, life is back to normal. Back in November, Australia was safely having rugby matches with 50,000 people in attendance (https://twitter.com/NRL/status/1329037775711027201). Yesterday, Australia had 6 new cases of covid and zero deaths. The US had over 66,000 new cases and over 1,000 deaths.
Before you have a conniption or crank up your spin machine , please look at the state by state numbers for : total cases ; total new cases ; hospitalization rates ; recovery rates and death rates. The Red states with their looser restrictions have done MUCH better than most Blue states and Dem controlled cities on ALL of those metrics. And they are doing a MUCH better job of USING their assigned doses of Covid vaccine and getting it into patients. Likewise the economic picture for the Red states is much healthier than most Blue states. Please point to one state that had strict lockdowns and is NOT losing population and jobs ?
jasmine22
02-16-2021, 11:03 AM
You know what though....adult entertainment has been pushed out of NYC for so long. Are we really surprised at this point? It was shell of what it was even before the pandemic and yes the guys do spend a lot of money there....but people forget how prevalent these places were in that city(back in the day Times Square was filled with nothing but adult entertainment now it’s Disney and corporations) . The porn industry literally started there in the 70s then moved to LA and now the same will happen to the strip club scene but there will always be something else that will take it’s place.
What’s surprising to me is how no one has really thought of creating adult webcam/content creator studios and space for girls to work out of. I’m taking about space you can rent specifically to work for yourself and cam/film content from that’s zoned for adult entertainment. Not everyone can work from home especially in an expensive city where you have limited space and probably roommates or kids in the home. Maybe they have them and I’m unaware of it but that might be a good idea especially since most of the tech industry has bought up New York real estate recently. But then again maybe something like that is wishful thinking in a city that seems to wanna push us out since the 80s.
Eric Stoner
02-16-2021, 11:28 AM
Jasmine- Actually it is a good idea. There IS studio space available for rent in NYC. Try Peerspace.com .
eagle2
02-16-2021, 02:42 PM
Baloney. Everything was initially shut down for months nationwide and it did not go away. We've argued all of this before. Anyone who thinks that you could replicate in the U.S. what a handful of tiny isolated countries did is out of touch with reality. Case in point: What has the current President done that is materially different than his predecessor? Nada because his powers are limited. Did the most onerous restrictions in any state prevent it from spreading? Maybe, maybe not, but CA had its most recent surge DESPITE all of those restrictions. It has also been pointed out by many epidemiologists that the virus was likely here months before we originally believed, initially confused with other common ailments.
In a country as large as the U.S. with its international traffic and the freedoms enjoyed by its citizens, a highly contagious virus was never going to be completely contained. Leaders with courage and clarity of thought, leading from the front instead of the rear, understood all of this early on and decided that balance was necessary, doing what we could to protect the most vulnerable while not firebombing our children's education and local businesses in the process. The longer this pandemic goes on, the more that people are starting to realize that this was the right approach all along.
Here in FL my kids have been in school since August while kids in NY, CA and other places (especially low income kids) fall further and further behind. Our stores, restaurants and even strip clubs are thriving (at least the ones that survived the initial shutdowns) while those in other places die permanent deaths. It is both sad and, as the science continues to tell us, especially with schools, represents a higher price than was justified.
Many states shut down too late and reopened too early. The US did worse than practically every other country in the world, when it came to preventing deaths from covid. I'm not sure if this is still the case, but at one point, South Dakota had the highest death rate in the world. Lockdowns do work, if everyone abides by them. In France, the number of cases plummeted from over 60,000 to 23,000 after France locked down. In the recent election, the majority of American voters voted for the candidate who wanted to do more to stop the virus from spreading, rather than the candidate who wanted to ignore the virus and do nothing.
Emanuelle
02-16-2021, 02:48 PM
Yes, I know ALL about the private parties LOL. OF doesn't pay what stripping in NYC does. Most girls tried it but failed miserably. Strippers that are used to easy money are NOT down with the work that goes into online content creation/cam/etc. I know, I did it...pretty successfully but I was trying HARD. I'd rather strip ANY DAY.
The more I learn about onlyfans the more I realize how few people are actually making any real money, and I think they're all girls who were already making money on other platforms or have a fanbase IRL. I've seen girls say they earn $1500 a month and they're in the top 2%. I guess that's good as a supplement if you're just reposting content from other places, but it's not a real income for the majority of Americans. And if that's in the top 2% then over 90% of people on the platform must be making basically nothing.
I don't know if guys who enjoy the strip club experience enjoy switching over to online. For me personally, I've had customers who were very big spenders in the club, consistently, they just lurk on my pages online and only spend $20 here and there because it isn't what they're looking for. Then they'll pop up every now and then to ask me when I'll be back at the club.
eagle2
02-16-2021, 03:03 PM
Before you have a conniption or crank up your spin machine , please look at the state by state numbers for : total cases ; total new cases ; hospitalization rates ; recovery rates and death rates. The Red states with their looser restrictions have done MUCH better than most Blue states and Dem controlled cities on ALL of those metrics. And they are doing a MUCH better job of USING their assigned doses of Covid vaccine and getting it into patients. Likewise the economic picture for the Red states is much healthier than most Blue states. Please point to one state that had strict lockdowns and is NOT losing population and jobs ?
You're ignoring the fact that NY and NJ were hit hardest at the beginning, when we weren't prepared for the pandemic and weren't locked down. Over the summer, blue states did far better than the red states that weren't locking down. In NY, 10 - 20 people were dying every day from the virus over the summer. In Florida, there were many days when more than 200 people died.
Vermont had strict lockdowns and has the second lowest death rate from the virus and the 3rd lowest unemployment rate. Virginia's death rate and unemployment rates are way below the national average. Utah, which is a conservative state, but did have strict lockdowns and a mask mandate, also has a death rate and unemployment rate that are way below the national average.
arielbriel
02-16-2021, 03:50 PM
I don’t want to argue about the virus, honestly, we have a ton of threads about that already.
I don’t think nyc could sustain a studio. The rent is soooo high, girls would have to pay out a LOT to work there and it would make it probably not worth it.
As far as OF, I’ve heard e vast majority make under $500 a month.
Eric Stoner
02-17-2021, 09:02 AM
Many states shut down too late and reopened too early. The US did worse than practically every other country in the world, when it came to preventing deaths from covid. I'm not sure if this is still the case, but at one point, South Dakota had the highest death rate in the world. Lockdowns do work, if everyone abides by them. In France, the number of cases plummeted from over 60,000 to 23,000 after France locked down. In the recent election, the majority of American voters voted for the candidate who wanted to do more to stop the virus from spreading, rather than the candidate who wanted to ignore the virus and do nothing. You and I will never come to agreement on this, because you couldn't care less how many people die from covid. I do.
Eagle - For the most part you are a gentleman. More or less. You are certainly passionate in your advocacy but you usually manage to stay within the bounds of basic civility. That said, this is a new low for you. You should be ashamed. I think you should apologize for such a vicious and unjustified personal attack. I haven't reported it even though it is a clear and blatant violation of the rules because I don't believe in doing that. We are all big boys and girls afaic and ought to be able to work things out ourselves. Our Mod has been VERY lenient in letting us have broad and robust airings of topical and important subjects. There is no need for personal attacks and it is long past time for you to stop personalizing !
As Rick has pointed out there are LOTS of casualties from the Covid pandemic. Not just those that get sick . Nor just those who die from the virus OR who died with the virus but really died from something else. The other side of the coin includes those who have died from suicide ; or from overdoses or from untreated illnesses ; or who have seen their life savings wiped out and businesses destroyed ; or who have been victims of domestic violence and on and on. ALL of those things have increased directly from the LOCKDOWNS !
It wasn't Rick who said : "Who cares where they died . They died." It was that great humanitarian and Lockdown advocate Andrew Cuomo. Or as we call him in N.Y. : Andrew The 1st. It wasn't Rick who watched at least half a million doses of vaccine get thrown out thanks to gross mismanagement of the vaccination program. It was Cuomo and DeBlasio.
You and I agree that Trump did not take the pandemic seriously enough , soon enough. Trump obviously wanted to keep the economy up and running and to reopen as soon as possible. But where are we now ? Biden lied last night when he said the Covid vaccines only came out AFTER he became President. We'd vaccinated over a million people BEFORE he took the oath. He hasn't done a damn thing YET that wasn't already being done or had any real impact .I think Cuomo , Murphy , LaMont, Whitmer, Newsom , Inslee and other governors are drunk with power. They don't have a clue what to do if Covid mutates away ( as the Spanish flu did in 1919-20 ). Who ever heard of Fauci before this pandemic ? Actually I did but that's from remembering his mistakes in handling the AIDS epidemic.
Speaking of Florida and California ( representing the two extremes of an Open and a Locked Up state ). On December 3, Newsom banned OUTDOOR dining, beauty parlors and religious services among other things. Florida kept their businesses open. DeSantis has prevented cities and localities from preventing bars and restaurants from operating at less than 50% capacity. He also issued other orders that helped keep Florida businesses open and functioning.
The results for both states are comparable. Both experienced a surge in Covid cases after January 1, attributable to Holiday gatherings. A few weeks later cases are trending down. According to the Covid Tracking Project both are seeing an average of between 200 and 400 new cases per day. Please note : A case is just a positive test. Period. In mid-January California was seeing a rate of 56 hospitalizations per 100,000 residents. Florida's rate was 35. The latest numbers are 24 in California and 22 in Florida. California leads the nation in total number of Covid cases despite some of the strictest lockdowns. It has a total population of about 40 million while Florida has about 22 million and GROWING. A LOT ! Yet their respective rates for total Covid cases are virtually the same 8,822 per 100,000 people in California and 8,508 in Florida. Florida's schools are open and have been so for months. Businesses are open. Unemployment is low and wages are up. It is gaining population not losing like N.Y. , N.J. , Conn. , Michigan , Pa. and other locked down Blue States.
In NYC , more troubling statistics. 92% of ALL restaurants could not pay rent in December. Indoor dining was shut down by Cuomo in the middle of the month. 76% of restaurant landlords have reduced or deferred rent for their restaurant tenants.
So how exactly are lockdowns working ? They don't seem to have much of any effect on Covid cases. Remember we are NOT talking about mask and distance mandates. Florida has both. And one of the best rates of vaccine efficiency i.e. they have thrown out the least number of vaccine doses..
Eric Stoner
02-17-2021, 09:13 AM
You're ignoring the fact that NY and NJ were hit hardest at the beginning, when we weren't prepared for the pandemic and weren't locked down. Over the summer, blue states did far better than the red states that weren't locking down. In NY, 10 - 20 people were dying every day from the virus over the summer. In Florida, there were many days when more than 200 people died.
Vermont had strict lockdowns and has the second lowest death rate from the virus and the 3rd lowest unemployment rate. Virginia's death rate and unemployment rates are way below the national average. Utah, which is a conservative state, but did have strict lockdowns and a mask mandate, also has a death rate and unemployment rate that are way below the national average.
I am talking and posting numbers that reflect NOW !. Not at the beginning when nobody including Trump and especially Fauci knew what they were doing and saying. Not over the Summer. But in the past month or so; since the beginning of 2021.
Eric Stoner
02-17-2021, 09:16 AM
I don’t want to argue about the virus, honestly, we have a ton of threads about that already.
I don’t think nyc could sustain a studio. The rent is soooo high, girls would have to pay out a LOT to work there and it would make it probably not worth it.
As far as OF, I’ve heard e vast majority make under $500 a month.
Most girls on OnlyFans are NOT making much money. The market is glutted with models , Instagrammers , influencers , escorts, porn actors and dancers.
Those who had an existing fan base and following are making enough to pay their bills.
I posted a site that has studio time available by the hour.
rickdugan
02-17-2021, 09:20 AM
Many states shut down too late and reopened too early. The US did worse than practically every other country in the world, when it came to preventing deaths from covid. I'm not sure if this is still the case, but at one point, South Dakota had the highest death rate in the world. Lockdowns do work, if everyone abides by them. In France, the number of cases plummeted from over 60,000 to 23,000 after France locked down. In the recent election, the majority of American voters voted for the candidate who wanted to do more to stop the virus from spreading, rather than the candidate who wanted to ignore the virus and do nothing. You and I will never come to agreement on this, because you couldn't care less how many people die from covid. I do.
This thing had taken root long before we even knew it was a serious problem, for all of the reasons I discussed above. All lockdowns did was delay the inevitable at dreadful costs in terms of non-COVID deaths and setting the foundation for generational poverty and mental disease. These lockdowns have come at a horrible cost.
And I most certainly do care about COVID deaths, but I also care about our nation's 72 million school age children, along with low income adults, including immigrants who must work to survive. Clearly you don't care about any of these people. These lockdowns have become the ultimate exercise in affluent white privilege, where a certain percentage of scaredy cats, softly safe in white collar jobs and with no children to worry about, pressure their leaders to fuck everyone else for a solid year for something that isn't even dangerous to most people anyway. The loss of educational advancements and income mobility for many 10s of millions of lower income Americans is both staggering and incalculable. And we have yet to figure out how many people died from preventable non-COVID issues, but we know that the number is going to be high.
I am part of a few community outreach programs and I have seen the impacts that even a short lockdown had on our most economically vulnerable. Low income kids did not get any meaningful education during that time and their parents struggled just to put food on the table. Our child counseling system is simply overwhelmed in my local community. I can only imagine what it must be like for these people in places that have locked down schools and many businesses for an entire fucking year.
Eric Stoner
02-17-2021, 10:32 AM
It's worse than that. How about adding up all the mothers ( or dads ) who could not go to work but had to stay home and watch their kids and make sure they face-timed with their teachers on computers they either couldn't afford or had to wait for months to get ? No income AND shitty education for their kids just so politicians can coddle the Teacher's unions.
Btw, I watched our "Special Needs" President last night with Anderson Cooper. I've seen softball questions to those that the media loves and favors but Biden got PUFFBALLS . " How do you like living in the White House ? ". Couldn't Cooper save that for Champ and Major ? ( The First Dogs for those who don't know .) My favorite members of the Biden family btw. Anyway according to Biden , A YEAR from now we are all going to have to keep wearing masks , socially distance and maybe get to dine indoors at 25 to 50 % capacity. I TOLD YOU SO ! These humps are drunk with power and LOVE being able to micromanage other people's lives.
rickdugan
02-17-2021, 11:39 AM
It's worse than that. How about adding up all the mothers ( or dads ) who could not go to work but had to stay home and watch their kids and make sure they face-timed with their teachers on computers they either couldn't afford or had to wait for months to get ? No income AND shitty education for their kids just so politicians can coddle the Teacher's unions.
When our local schools shut down for the last quarter of the school year in March, it was a shit show. The class work was a joke. In order to enable my 3 children to attend "classes" online, I had about $1,500 of extra electronic equipment drop shipped to my house so that every kid could be on a laptop at the same time. Then I upgraded our Internet pipeline to Max Blast, at no small expense I might add, to ensure that we could have 5-6 devices all sucking off the same pipeline at the same time.
Now our school zone is fairly affluent, so they had some laptops on hand to lend out to needier households. But even so they could only manage one per household, regardless of how many students there were. Then of course, as you rightly pointed out, someone actually has to be there to make sure that they attend sessions and do the assignments.
In my outreach activities during that time, we were finding exactly what you pointed out. If a single Mom working long hours at a store has to choose between putting food on the table or supervising her kids' online activities, which do you think she's going to choose? And of course many of the households we dealt with simply did not have enough technology available anyway, often with multiple kids trying to share the same loaner laptop.
Thank goodness I am in Florida. Our state fought the teacher's unions all the way to the Appeals Courts and, thankfully, won. If our schools had not opened in August, I would have probably pulled them out of public schools and put them in private schools. Truth be told, many affluent blue state parents have already done exactly that, so the gap between poor children in blue states vs. those from affluent families (affluent white privilege at its finest) and/or kids going to open schools in red states grows wider by the day.
As we speak, I have kids flourishing in advanced mathematics, robotics, digital media and other challenging courses. In the meantime, poor blue state kids fall irrevocably behind because the teacher's unions wish to keep the never-ending holiday going.
eagle2
02-17-2021, 12:35 PM
Eagle - For the most part you are a gentleman. More or less. You are certainly passionate in your advocacy but you usually manage to stay within the bounds of basic civility. That said, this is a new low for you. You should be ashamed. I think you should apologize for such a vicious and unjustified personal attack. I haven't reported it even though it is a clear and blatant violation of the rules because I don't believe in doing that. We are all big boys and girls afaic and ought to be able to work things out ourselves. Our Mod has been VERY lenient in letting us have broad and robust airings of topical and important subjects. There is no need for personal attacks and it is long past time for you to stop personalizing !
As Rick has pointed out there are LOTS of casualties from the Covid pandemic. Not just those that get sick . Nor just those who die from the virus OR who died with the virus but really died from something else. The other side of the coin includes those who have died from suicide ; or from overdoses or from untreated illnesses ; or who have seen their life savings wiped out and businesses destroyed ; or who have been victims of domestic violence and on and on. ALL of those things have increased directly from the LOCKDOWNS !
It wasn't Rick who said : "Who cares where they died . They died." It was that great humanitarian and Lockdown advocate Andrew Cuomo. Or as we call him in N.Y. : Andrew The 1st. It wasn't Rick who watched at least half a million doses of vaccine get thrown out thanks to gross mismanagement of the vaccination program. It was Cuomo and DeBlasio.
You and I agree that Trump did not take the pandemic seriously enough , soon enough. Trump obviously wanted to keep the economy up and running and to reopen as soon as possible. But where are we now ? Biden lied last night when he said the Covid vaccines only came out AFTER he became President. We'd vaccinated over a million people BEFORE he took the oath. He hasn't done a damn thing YET that wasn't already being done or had any real impact .I think Cuomo , Murphy , LaMont, Grisham , Newsom , Inslee and other governors are drunk with power. They don't have a clue what to do if Covid mutates away ( as the Spanish flu did in 1919-20 ). Who ever heard of Fauci before this pandemic ? Actually I did but that's from remembering his mistakes in handling the AIDS epidemic.
Speaking of Florida and California ( representing the two extremes of an Open and a Locked Up state ). On December 3, Newsom banned OUTDOOR dining, beauty parlors and religious services among other things. Florida kept their businesses open. DeSantis has prevented cities and localities from preventing bars and restaurants from operating at less than 50% capacity. He also issued other orders that helped keep Florida businesses open and functioning.
The results for both states are comparable. Both experienced a surge in Covid cases after January 1, attributable to Holiday gatherings. A few weeks later cases are trending down. According to the Covid Tracking Project both are seeing an average of between 200 and 400 new cases per day. Please note : A case is just a positive test. Period. In mid-January California was seeing a rate of 56 hospitalizations per 100,000 residents. Florida's rate was 35. The latest numbers are 24 in California and 22 in Florida. California leads the nation in total number of Covid cases despite some of the strictest lockdowns. It has a total population of about 40 million while Florida has about 22 million and GROWING. A LOT ! Yet their respective rates for total Covid cases are virtually the same 8,822 per 100,000 people in California and 8,508 in Florida. Florida's schools are open and have been so for months. Businesses are open. Unemployment is low and wages are up. It is gaining population not losing like N.Y. , N.J. , Conn. , Michigan , Pa. and other locked down Blue States.
In NYC , more troubling statistics. 92% of ALL restaurants could not pay rent in December. Indoor dining was shut down by Cuomo in the middle of the month. 76% of restaurant landlords have reduced or deferred rent for their restaurant tenants.
So how exactly are lockdowns working ? They don't seem to have much of any effect on Covid cases. Remember we are NOT talking about mask and distance mandates. Florida has both. And one of the best rates of vaccine efficiency i.e. they have thrown out the least number of vaccine doses..
1/2 million people have died and we've had thousands of people dying every day these past few months, and Rick has opposed any and every measure to prevent more people from dying. Rather than endlessly arguing over this, I deleted my comment. It's a fact that the states which locked down longer had far fewer deaths over the summer than those which opened before it was safe. In New York, 10 - 20 people were dying every day over the summer, while in FL, AZ, and TX, hundreds of people were. Washington is one of the few states that took strong measures right from the start, and their death rate is less than half of Florida's.
Since other members here are tired of the endless fighting over this, this is my last post in this discussion.
Eric Stoner
02-17-2021, 01:06 PM
Hit and run. How manly of you. Ooops sorry. I meant how adult of you. ( I don't want to be sexist .)
No one is fighting. YOU are the only one who got down in the gutter. As usual , you have your numbers ( mostly out of date and signifying little in the here and now ) and Rick and I have posted different numbers that of course are more current and have greater relevance. Lol. I'm sorta kidding.
As I posted , let's focus on NOW. Let's look at numbers that are relevant NOW. The Summer is over. I posted the latest numbers for both Caliphonia and Florida. For Covid they are comparable. For overall health of people, society in general and the economy, it is Florida by a knockout. There is no comparison.
I have a LOT of friends in Caliphonia and they are ALL looking to get out. Permanently. I also have a lot of friends in Florida and NONE of them would leave right now no matter the inducement.
Newsom is facing a serious recall effort. Cuomo is looking at possible impeachment and possible criminal liability. ( Don't hold your breath ). DeSantis is a serious contender for POTUS and has a solid track record to run on.
eagle2
02-17-2021, 01:41 PM
No, I'm showing respect for the other members who don't want this thread turned into an endless argument about the pandemic, with people making the same points over and over again.
eagle2
02-17-2021, 01:55 PM
Eric,
I don't know if you saw this thread, but there are a lot of people in this forum who are tired of the endless fighting over this pandemic, and with Rick minimizing its seriousness. I have a close friend who lost her brother to covid. There are no words that can describe how horrible it is to have a loved one dying in the hospital, and not even being allowed to visit.
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?229275-Florida-is-still-wide-open-and-will-likely-remain-that-way-updated-Nov-20-2020
Please remember, we are guests here.
rickdugan
02-17-2021, 02:22 PM
Eagle, that thread was closed because I engaged with a few dancers in an Industry Insights thread in a way that the Mods found questionable, which I completely understand. But we are not in Industry Insights and you are not a dancer as far as I know.
I don't think that anyone is minimizing COVID, either here or otherwise. Rather we are merely pointing out that COVID cannot be our only concern. The lives of hundreds of millions of low risk individuals must continue, including those 72 million school children, low income people who MUST work to live and, of course, dancers who only have a limited number of years to capitalize on their ability to earn premium money in clubs.
I don't think that Eric's decision to start a thread to discuss the loss of clubs that are a source of income for thousands of dancers and support staff is inconsistent with the goals of Dollar Den on this site. I do think though that maybe we could tone down the bullet posts and rhetoric a bit as I agree that there is no upside in this thread getting out of hand.
eagle2
02-17-2021, 02:29 PM
Eventually this is going to be over, and anyone who is unable to work because of the pandemic, will be able to go back to work, and all children will be able to go back to school, but the people who die from covid will never come back.
rickdugan
02-17-2021, 02:54 PM
Eagle the lives lost due to lockdowns matter too. So too does the economic and permanent educational devastation this has caused for too many millions to easily count, including the many years of future suffering and reduced future quality of life. Places like Florida chose a balanced approach and, while we will never agree, IMHO it was the right one.
Not a single person I know who caught COVID (and I know a number of them including myself) was surprised, usually because they had engaged in social activities of one sort or another. The reality is that, with everything we now know, nobody is confused about how to protect themselves. Those who caught it during the Summer and Fall in FL, including the relative tiny % who died from it, did so after making their own decisions about how much risk they were willing to take. While every death is sad, IMHO they were grown adults who made fully informed decisions and got unlucky with the result.
It's funny, but right now Ron DeSantis and Andrew Cuomo each have about the same positive approval rating in their respective states. This reflects a fundamental difference in risk tolerance and attitudes between residents of the two states. But as someone who believes that people should have the right to provide for their families, educate their children and make their own informed choices, I am saddened to see lower income people (especially low income kids) continue to be irrevocably held hostage by the lower risk tolerances of affluent people in some states.
moneybags
02-17-2021, 03:26 PM
Yes, I know ALL about the private parties LOL. OF doesn't pay what stripping in NYC does. Most girls tried it but failed miserably. Strippers that are used to easy money are NOT down with the work that goes into online content creation/cam/etc. I know, I did it...pretty successfully but I was trying HARD. I'd rather strip ANY DAY.
You really have to be a legit business person to be successful. It's not easy money! I was able to do it, but I'm driven as hell.
eagle2
02-17-2021, 07:48 PM
Eagle the lives lost due to lockdowns matter too. So too does the economic and permanent educational devastation this has caused for too many millions to easily count, including the many years of future suffering and reduced future quality of life. Places like Florida chose a balanced approach and, while we will never agree, IMHO it was the right one.
Having a "reduced future quality of life" is far better than not having a life at all, and there is a lot that can be done so that people don't have a "reduced future quality of life" without endangering millions of people.
Not a single person I know who caught COVID (and I know a number of them including myself) was surprised, usually because they had engaged in social activities of one sort or another. The reality is that, with everything we now know, nobody is confused about how to protect themselves. Those who caught it during the Summer and Fall in FL, including the relative tiny % who died from it, did so after making their own decisions about how much risk they were willing to take. While every death is sad, IMHO they were grown adults who made fully informed decisions and got unlucky with the result.
The one person I know who passed away, was doing everything he could possibly do to avoid catching the virus, but because he had someone living with him who wasn't, he ended up catching it. This is something you and Eric refuse to acknowledge. People who are at risk from the virus do not live in isolated communities, and cannot completely avoid having contact with people who aren't. The more people who catch this virus who aren't high risk, the more likely it is that they will spread it to people who are at high risk.
This is why I say you're minimizing the seriousness of the pandemic. Approximately 1/2 million Americans have died from covid, and you're reducing this to, "the relative tiny % who died from it." 1/2 million deaths in less than a year is a very high number by any standard. For people who are at high risk, it is not a tiny %.
Selina M
02-18-2021, 11:36 AM
Baloney. Everything was initially shut down for months nationwide and it did not go away.
LOL our "shutdown" here was basically just indoor dining, gyms and movie theatres. Some stores closed voluntarily but the list of things that were allowed to call themselves "essential" was ridiculous. It was like if they had a stand selling candy near the register, they got to say they sold food ::)
I don't remember being inconvenienced by the "lockdown" at all except for doing takeout instead of eating in. It was nowhere near enough to stop all spread.
Raziel
02-18-2021, 03:39 PM
If they do, they'll just get replaced. Men do love their titties.
Eric Stoner
02-19-2021, 08:46 AM
Eventually this is going to be over, and anyone who is unable to work because of the pandemic, will be able to go back to work, and all children will be able to go back to school, but the people who die from covid will never come back.
That IS a major issue. What WILL things be like when the pandemic subsides ? To listen to Fauci , our Special Needs President and some other politicians, this pandemic will ALWAYS be with us ; our lives will never return to "normal" etc. To listen to the Teacher's Unions , they don't ever want to go back to poorly ventilated classrooms filled with runny nosed brats whose parents want them to act as baby-sitters. Even ultra-Libs like Lori Lightfoot are getting fed up with the Teachers.
Eagle has been repeatedly asked how much economic damage he is willing to tolerate to pursue ephemeral protection against Covid ? He never answers. I have posted the latest numbers for both Florida and Caliphonia clearly showing that the Covid numbers for the latter are no better than for the former. The three states with the worst death rates for Covid are Caliphonia , New York and New Jersey. The overwhelming number of deaths have occurred in people over 60 and most of them had at least one co-morbidity . Deaths as a result of the Lockdowns cut across ALL ages with the most serious impact among the working and middle classes. Eagle refuses to acknowledge any casualties from the Lockdowns. I've asked but I honestly don't know how he justifies the increases in suicides , overdoses and untreated illnesses which are diorectly related to the lockdowns and the economic damage resulting therefrom. It is passing strange for him to try and claim that Rick doesn't "care" about Covid victims when it looks like Eagle doesn't care about those casualties.
The bottom line is very simple. If Lockdowns truly worked then Caliphonia and New York would have whiz bang Covid numbers compared to states like Florida. They don't. In fact their numbers are worse.
rickdugan
02-19-2021, 09:28 AM
LOL our "shutdown" here was basically just indoor dining, gyms and movie theatres. Some stores closed voluntarily but the list of things that were allowed to call themselves "essential" was ridiculous. It was like if they had a stand selling candy near the register, they got to say they sold food ::)
I don't remember being inconvenienced by the "lockdown" at all except for doing takeout instead of eating in. It was nowhere near enough to stop all spread.
Sure, FL's lockdowns were hardly inconvenient if you don't have school age children or work in the many millions of jobs in Florida's service businesses. Heck my income actually went up during the pandemic while my expenses went down because I did not have to fund travel. Other people in certain essential fields were getting tons of OT. For some it was a downright bonanza.
But Florida has almost 3 million school children, many with low income parents who would not be able to work due to childcare issues. Closing schools had a myriad of deep educationally and psychologically consequences, which would have been exacerbated if they had dragged on into this school year. Even our brief closures in FL triggered a massive strain on our child mental health system.
FL also lost millions of jobs during the shutdowns in countless service and retail businesses, including restaurants because many of them closed completely and those that did not were running on skeleton crews for takeout. And of course since this is stripperweb, let's not forget the many thousands of dancers and support staff who rely upon FL's vibrant strip club scene for their living.
So for some it's easy to take the position that every life potentially saved is worth suffering and permanent harm for easily 10s of millions nationwide, even if we can't actually measure how many lives would have been saved by more stringent lockdowns ala CA. They are comfy and don't have to bear the brunt of those decisions - others do. But as a parent to 3 kids and someone who saw what those FL shutdowns did firsthand to a number of more vulnerable people, I (understandably I hope) have a different perspective.
lurkingtitties
02-19-2021, 10:05 AM
Before you have a conniption or crank up your spin machine , please look at the state by state numbers for : total cases ; total new cases ; hospitalization rates ; recovery rates and death rates. The Red states with their looser restrictions have done MUCH better than most Blue states and Dem controlled cities on ALL of those metrics. And they are doing a MUCH better job of USING their assigned doses of Covid vaccine and getting it into patients. Likewise the economic picture for the Red states is much healthier than most Blue states. Please point to one state that had strict lockdowns and is NOT losing population and jobs ?
It’s WILDLY incorrect to claim that states with little to no lockdown restrictions had better health outcomes than states with stricter lockdowns.
Eric Stoner
02-19-2021, 10:33 AM
It’s WILDLY incorrect to claim that states with little to no lockdown restrictions had better health outcomes than states with stricter lockdowns.
I am sorry but the numbers are what they are. I posted the latest numbers available. On balance the lockdowns did NOT work. If they were effective then those states with the strictest lockdowns would have the best Covid numbers. And states like Florida and Georgia would have people dropping like flies across the board. For the most part, people got infected not from going to school ; not from going to bars and restaurants ; not from going to work ; not from attending an outdoor event; not from flying on a plane; not from going to church or a gym BUT MOSTLY from private social INDOOR gatherings where they did NOT observe social distancing or wear a mask. Nobody, not Rick , not me , ever said NOT to distance and/or NOT to wear a mask.
Eric Stoner
02-19-2021, 10:42 AM
Having a "reduced future quality of life" is far better than not having a life at all, and there is a lot that can be done so that people don't have a "reduced future quality of life" without endangering millions of people.
The one person I know who passed away, was doing everything he could possibly do to avoid catching the virus, but because he had someone living with him who wasn't, he ended up catching it. This is something you and Eric refuse to acknowledge. People who are at risk from the virus do not live in isolated communities, and cannot completely avoid having contact with people who aren't. The more people who catch this virus who aren't high risk, the more likely it is that they will spread it to people who are at high risk.
This is why I say you're minimizing the seriousness of the pandemic. Approximately 1/2 million Americans have died from covid, and you're reducing this to, "the relative tiny % who died from it." 1/2 million deaths in less than a year is a very high number by any standard. For people who are at high risk, it is not a tiny %.
Rick has been talking about the death rates . The overall death rate per 1 million of population and the death rate among Covid positive people. Most of whom did NOT get sick. You need to tortuously read his posts to say he doesn't care. He does care about Covid patients BUT he ( and I ) care just as much for those who have suffered devastating consequences from the lockdowns. We have robbed most of our children of a serious education ( from Pre-K through graduate school ) even though they are in the lowest risk group. We have devastated hospitality businesses ( and their contractors and suppliers ) and their employees. Sometimes Lockdown advocates talk and behave as though closing schools and businesses are totally benign ; that there are no consequences for doing so and that we can continue to do so indefinitely.