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OmegaWest
05-15-2019, 12:20 PM
florida has licenses for massage and spa from dbpr. They can operate in any normal commercial or business zone most are in shopping centers and strip malls, no adult zoning needed.

if your employees go above and beyond the normal, it will fall back on the employee not the business. There have been many cases in the past that have done just that, its only the high profile nature of Kraft that took this beyond the evening news and forgotten by morning.

Literaly the fines if it was to go to trial and be convicted is $1000 tops and no jail time, no probation, no anything.

oh and his legal team is on retainer, so they get paid the same if they work or not

miss.a.p1600
05-15-2019, 03:10 PM
Well I would think adult massage is under the umbrella of adult oriented business since they were doing more than traditional massages.

I’ll have to do more research but I doubt businesses can just claim they’re ignorant of illicit activity just to avoid legal responsibilities and zoning restrictions

The female owners themselves had clients. So they knew exactly what was going down.

I also don’t think the prosecution was trying to lock him up i think they were simply too far down the hole to admit where they fucked up during the process of surveillance as part of the warrant.

Anyways was trying to keep this thread about the video surveillance/warrant

slowpoke
05-15-2019, 04:43 PM
[URL]
Former federal prosecutor Cynthia Alksne said cops should have known better to take “minimization” actions — making sure the surveillance only caught criminal activity and didn’t infringe on law-abiding people’s privacy.

Both sides are due back in court Friday for a status hearing.


Did she say how they were supposed to do that?

slowpoke
05-15-2019, 04:43 PM
I have a hard time believing that place was legit, but ok..
If you call your place/service massage & you're not licensed, that's illegal


'Grasping @ straws' comes to mind :)

Isn't grasping at straws what caused the problem?

miss.a.p1600
05-15-2019, 08:36 PM
Did she say how they were supposed to do that?

I believe an article I read said something about how they were supposed to turn the camera off when it was determined people were getting regular massages

But you have a point

That seems impossible to do because how you know if their getting serviced or not if you don’t record them? Like you would have to record the whole session cause you never know at what point the action will go down.

I do know if I did a regular massage the week Kraft was there, I would not want the video out (well unless they paid me A LOT of money plus royalties lol)

I’m guess that they never attempted to use undercover agents and went straight to hidden surveillance is also where the prosecution went wrong with their investigation. I do remember reading about the delayed search warrant and one of the criteria was using less invasive methods first.

whirlerz
05-16-2019, 07:04 AM
Lol, Pokey.

I think RK. should hire Ms P, Pokey, & Omega!

The whole thing is a sideshow!

miss.a.p1600
05-16-2019, 07:14 AM
^lol! The legal stuff would annoy the hell out of me. I see why some of these lawyers be using cocaine n what not. I’d rather do pr cleanup - for a handsome retainer fee of course

*still not sure why he had to go to the sleazy strip mall instead of just other options. Like what is the point of having a girlfriend if you can’t get some action every now and then.

whirlerz
05-16-2019, 07:23 AM
Well, every once in a while, we all hit McD's, even tho.we prefer steak.:)

miss.a.p1600
05-16-2019, 08:43 AM
^good point I suppose!

SidneyPrescott
05-16-2019, 10:16 AM
^lol! The legal stuff would annoy the hell out of me. I see why some of these lawyers be using cocaine n what not. I’d rather do pr cleanup - for a handsome retainer fee of course

*still not sure why he had to go to the sleazy strip mall instead of just other options. Like what is the point of having a girlfriend if you can’t get some action every now and then.

He probably literally went in for a legit massage one day and got upgraded to the extra stuff.

rickdugan
05-16-2019, 11:29 AM
The only thing that disappoints me about the judge's ruling, which I read word for word, is that he didn't go further in addressing the issue of "right to privacy" vs. the use of sneak and peak warrants to catch misdemeanors. The police screwed up so badly in failing to apply even the most basic required protections against capturing innocent activity that the judge's ruling was an easy one, especially when that innocent activity included nude people.

In fact, the police botched it so badly that PBC prosecutors are unlikely to appeal, which means that, while Kraft and the other defendants will likely walk, the broader constitutional issues around using "sneak and peak" warrants for this type of crap are not likely to be litigated. Now I have no doubt that this will also prevent FL LE from using this tactic again anytime soon for AMP busts, but eventually some clever person is going to find a workaround for the monitoring issue relating to innocent acts and will try it again, either in another AMP or in some other private setting. The judge hinted in his ruling that Kraft also had an expectation of privacy, but did not have the guts to go further with it.

miss.a.p1600
05-16-2019, 01:20 PM
He probably literally went in for a legit massage one day and got upgraded to the extra stuff.

That does make me curious now as to how he found out about the place. Yelp reviews? Word of mouth? Or just random events?

I could be wrong but I think he went twice and both times he paid extra for.....extras

miss.a.p1600
05-16-2019, 03:58 PM
He probably literally went in for a legit massage one day and got upgraded to the extra stuff.

Kraft: massage me, everywhere

Masseuse: Everywhere?

Kraft: Yes.....EVERYWHERE (insert $100 plus wink face emoji here)

whirlerz
05-16-2019, 04:08 PM
Yea, my heart just aches for RK, I mean, the injustice of it all!

NO ONE ELSE comes close to the suffering!!!

How can such a fine, innocent, upstanding citizen bear it all!

rickdugan
05-16-2019, 04:28 PM
Yea, my heart just aches for RK, I mean, the injustice of it all!

NO ONE ELSE comes close to the suffering!!!

How can such a fine, innocent, upstanding citizen bear it all!

The issues here go far beyond one billionaire NFL owner. To think otherwise is a bit shortsighted.

What he did with this case has made things better for many of us on this board, from club junkies like me to escorts, body rub girls and strippers who may do other things from time to time - among others. Heck, even many dancers who consider themselves "clean" routinely violate one or more local ordinances because it is almost impossible not to.

What he did will make things a little safer for all of us, not just in Florida, but nationwide since the applicable standards were federal and this case will be looked at by LE and prosecutors around the U.S. The publicity also highlighted the bogus nature of using "trafficking" as the fig leaf to pull out all the stops to catch adults having consensual commercial sex, which may also cause others to hesitate before trying the same thing.

SidneyPrescott
05-16-2019, 05:11 PM
Kraft: massage me, everywhere

Masseuse: Everywhere?

Kraft: Yes.....EVERYWHERE (insert $100 plus wink face emoji here)

Lol! I’m sure that he paid for happy endings every time he went there!

whirlerz
05-16-2019, 06:06 PM
Before I go bk to muting:

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::argue:

miss.a.p1600
05-16-2019, 06:54 PM
Well the fact still remains that Commercial sex, even when consensual, is still illegal everywhere in us except Nevada

Kraft knew that before he drove to the seedy strip mall to allegedly bust nuts.

So when you do something against the laws even if you think it is harmless and should be legal you have to be ready for the consequences - part of which means having enough money for a Proper defense. Good for the billionaire but not so good for all the others caught up in spa stings that could not afford good defense attorneys

It is my understanding that the delayed searches can be used to catch illegal activities even misdemeanors (such as pr*stitution) though they usually reserved for catching felonies (such as trafficking, drug rings, etc) and that the video was not able to be used because the authorities did not follow the escalation steps in a delayed search warrant (they were supposed to send in undercovers first before using video surveillance). This to me means that they will probably continue to investigate businesses moonlighting as adult businesses or adult businesses engaging in illegal activity but more likely using undercover agents. This does not mean adult industry workers in massage parlors etc can relax just that it is less likely they will be videotaped.

rickdugan
05-16-2019, 07:39 PM
Well the fact still remains that Commercial sex, even when consensual, is still illegal everywhere in us except Nevada

Kraft knew that before he drove to the seedy strip mall to allegedly bust nuts.

So when you do something against the laws even if you think it is harmless and should be legal you have to be ready for the consequences - part of which means having enough money for a Proper defense. Good for the billionaire but not so good for all the others caught up in spa stings that could not afford good defense attorneys

It is my understanding that the delayed searches can be used to catch illegal activities even misdemeanors (such as pr*stitution) though they usually reserved for catching felonies (such as trafficking, drug rings, etc) and that the video was not able to be used because the authorities did not follow the escalation steps in a delayed search warrant (they were supposed to send in undercovers first before using video surveillance). This to me means that they will probably continue to investigate businesses moonlighting as adult businesses or adult businesses engaging in illegal activity but more likely using undercover agents. This does not mean adult industry workers in massage parlors etc can relax just that it is less likely they will be videotaped.

You're getting circular now Miss. You've said all this before and we get your views on this, but it doesn't change the fact that many people here participate in it - on both sides - including many girls who either earn all or part of their livings from sex work. It also doesn't change the fact that we expect our police to use reasonable restraint in, and have boundaries for, pursuing stuff that involves how women decide to use their own bodies.

And of course this doesn't mean that sex workers can relax, nor was I saying that. It does mean that another spa likely won't have to deal with this again anytime soon. Police also won't be tempted to take it just a half step further and start putting video surveillance in places like hotel rooms or even the bedrooms of suspected escorts, among other places where people are likely to get naked. That is a huge win.

But as to the rest, their are broader constitutional issues that didn't get addressed in the ruling, probably because the judge found an easy out. Unreasonable search and seizure inherently includes a concept of proportionality, where the level of intrusiveness should correlate to the seriousness of the suspected offense. There are many judges who would never have approved video surveillance in private spa rooms to catch misdemeanor sex acts - period - but Jupiter police had a friendly local judge who wasn't so worried about that sort of thing. The reason that we've never heard of this before is precisely because it is that controversial, which is why I was hoping they would fight this all the way. But again, the police fucked up so badly that the judge had an escape hatch and prosecutors are in a bad position to appeal.

miss.a.p1600
05-16-2019, 08:31 PM
And you haven’t made redundant statements here?

Anyways,

I’m not talking about the people here per say....I’m talking about the Kraft and “Spas” and his decision to engage in an action he knew was illegal which does not make him “innocent” even thought the act itself some would believe is consensual and harmless thus innocent.

How can law enforcement be expected to restrain themselves from enforcing laws? I get people make their living from xxx some of which just so happens to be illegal my point is they should exercise extreme caution 1. Learn about the adult business laws 2. Research local stings 3. have some money set aside and some lawyers on deck - just like Kraft did

Your point about the correlation of intrusiveness makes sense

However there are judges who did approve of such video surveillance in previous spa cases in Florida AND FL is ranked #7 with highest rates of delayed search warrants.

It just seems to risky to work or procure services at spas in Florida.

I would like to know the judges rational for approving the warrants in these cases specifically in krafts case.

rickdugan
05-17-2019, 04:59 AM
How can law enforcement be expected to restrain themselves from enforcing laws? I get people make their living from xxx some of which just so happens to be illegal my point is they should exercise extreme caution 1. Learn about the adult business laws 2. Research local stings 3. have some money set aside and some lawyers on deck - just like Kraft did.

How about by not trying to record people naked just to catch a few misdemeanors, just as one example? ;)

The good thing is now they won't be able to - thank you Bob Kraft. Other examples include not using S.W.A.T. teams to enforce pot laws, not using air support to pull over speeders, not draw guns on jaywalkers...do I really need to go on?

And yes, Florida uses sneak and peak warrants more than many states, primarily for drug trafficking as FL is a major point of entry into the U.S. But it was never contemplated that such warrants would be used for nickel and dime crap like this, nor should we reasonably have to worry about police recording our private areas just to catch consensual commercial sex. Once again (third time now), police do not have the inalienable right to catch any crime by any means necessary. Proportionality matters in what is constitutionally "reasonable" search and seizure.

miss.a.p1600
05-17-2019, 05:28 AM
You can cut the negative tone. If you feel like you’re repeating then perhaps you can simply stop posting in this thread.

I agree there are certain laws that imo should not be illegal and police enforcing them in such a stiff way is just ridiculous

I get that they can’t just do whatever they want to catch unlawful activity so this is why they have lost their evidence here.

Other spas in that area had been raided using the same tactics (and I believe they did have some trafficking charges) so they probably thought the same for this place since they found links to the other spas. Plus the judge approved in this case and the other spa cases.

It seems to me they got overly confident, was unable to secure proof that back the trafficking, and did not have oversight on how to conduct the proper surveillance/follow the steps of the warrant.

rickdugan
05-17-2019, 06:06 AM
You can cut the negative tone. If you feel like you’re repeating then perhaps you can simply stop posting in this thread.

I agree there are certain laws that imo should not be illegal and police enforcing them in such a stiff way is just ridiculous

I get that they can’t just do whatever they want to catch unlawful activity so this is why they have lost their evidence here.

Other spas in that area had been raided using the same tactics (and I believe they did have some trafficking charges) so they probably thought the same for this place since they found links to the other spas. Plus the judge approved in this case and the other spa cases.

It seems to me they got overly confident, was unable to secure proof that back the trafficking, and did not have oversight on how to conduct the proper surveillance/follow the steps of the warrant.

Miss, I'll use whatever tone I want within reason. If you don't want a negative reaction, consider where you are when you start trotting out the sanctimonious "Law & Order" card in relation to how women, including many who post on this board, choose to use their own bodies.

In yet other examples, we will readily kick the doors in when we are pursuing violent felons, pedophiles and drug traffickers, but not for outstanding speeding tickets or even bench warrants for moving violations. Police pull weapons and/or get physical when they are concerned about their safety, but not in ordinary traffic stops or even other minor misdemeanor situations. I could go on, but you get the picture. Proportionality.

And yes, other spas in the area were raided using the same tactics. Ever wonder why prosecutors offered all of the Johns the same diversion deal in those cases? Some of their lawyers wanted to fight too, but their clients were too scared, especially when they had the chance to get out without a criminal record. We talked about this before too. Then came Bob Kraft, who wasn't scared and stood against them - ultimately for all of us.

miss.a.p1600
05-17-2019, 06:40 AM
Miss, I'll use whatever tone I want within reason. If you don't want a negative reaction, consider where you are when you start trotting out the sanctimonious "Law & Order" card in relation to how women, including many who post on this board, choose to use their own bodies.

In yet other examples, we will readily kick the doors in when we are pursuing violent felons, pedophiles and drug traffickers, but not for outstanding speeding tickets or even bench warrants for moving violations. Police pull weapons and/or get physical when they are concerned about their safety, but not in ordinary traffic stops or even other minor misdemeanor situations. I could go on, but you get the picture. Proportionality.

And yes, other spas in the area were raided using the same tactics. Ever wonder why prosecutors offered all of the Johns the same diversion deal in those cases? Some of their lawyers wanted to fight too, but their clients were too scared, especially when they had the chance to get out without a criminal record. We talked about this before too. Then came Bob Kraft, who wasn't scared and stood against them - ultimately for all of us.

No you can use that tone elsewhere and on someone else.

You are more than welcome to stop ‘trotting’ into threads I create if you know your opinion is vastly different from mine. You are only doing that to get a reaction

And the women on the board can speak for themselves they don’t need you as their spokesperson. Besides I’m talking about Robert Kraft, the sunshine laws in Florida, and the delayed search warrant. So I would appreciate if you would stop making generalizations

Notice how you consistently barge into threads I create (knowing your opinion is different and you will be triggered) then resort to name calling to get your opinion across? This is the 5th time you’ve done this and at this point you are harassing.

Here is this thread everyone, except you, has been responding with their opinions in civilized manners and you are expected to do the same or you can exit the thread or be reported. Which would you prefer?

rickdugan
05-17-2019, 06:54 AM
No you can use that tone elsewhere.

You are more than welcome to stop ‘trotting’ into threads I create if you know your opinion is vastly different from mine. You are only doing that to get a reaction. This is the 5th time you’ve done this and at this point you are harassing.

And the women on the board can speak for themselves they don’t need you as their spokesperson. Besides I’m talking about Robert Kraft, the sunshine laws in Florida, and the delayed search warrant. So I would appreciate if you would stop making generalizations

Notice how you consistently resort to name calling to get your opinion across?

Here is this thread everyone, except you, has been responding with their opinions in civilized manners and you are expected to do the same or you can exit the thread or be reported. Which would you prefer?

Miss, I didn't call you any names and you don't get to control how others respond to your opinions. Report away if you must.

Or better yet, you could stop implying that every woman on this board who derives some or all of her income from p4p is a hardened criminal who should fully expect police to record her in private or even kick down her door. After all, in your view, police should not have to show restraint in how they enforce the laws, right? Thank goodness that most constitutional scholars and judges don't agree with your sentiments. ;)

miss.a.p1600
05-17-2019, 07:05 AM
Miss, I'll use whatever tone I want within reason. If you don't want a negative reaction, consider where you are when you start trotting out the sanctimonious "Law & Order" card in relation to how women, including many who post on this board, choose to use their own bodies.

In yet other examples, we will readily kick the doors in when we are pursuing violent felons, pedophiles and drug traffickers, but not for outstanding speeding tickets or even bench warrants for moving violations. Police pull weapons and/or get physical when they are concerned about their safety, but not in ordinary traffic stops or even other minor misdemeanor situations. I could go on, but you get the picture. Proportionality.

And yes, other spas in the area were raided using the same tactics. Ever wonder why prosecutors offered all of the Johns the same diversion deal in those cases? Some of their lawyers wanted to fight too, but their clients were too scared, especially when they had the chance to get out without a criminal record. We talked about this before too. Then came Bob Kraft, who wasn't scared and stood against them - ultimately for all of us.

You must really like law and order you keep bringing that up as a weak insult

Anyways, those men in the other cases were not scared. They were bold enough to go cheat on their spouses, break laws, etc. they simply did not have unlimited money to fight for their justice like Kraft does. Money = power and that’s why Kraft was not scared.

And I highly doubt you give one iota of empathy can caring about anonymous women on this board. You only care about this case because it’s a male doing what you do. Had this been some poor woman or woman of color you’d be ‘trotting’ in this thread screaming ‘lock her up’ or ‘she knew what she was getting in to’

miss.a.p1600
05-17-2019, 07:09 AM
Miss, I didn't call you any names and you don't get to control how others respond to your opinions. Report away if you must.

Or better yet, you could stop implying that every woman on this board who derives some or all of her income from p4p is a hardened criminal who should fully expect police to record her in private or even kick down her door. After all, in your view, police should not have to show restraint in how they enforce the laws, right? Thank goodness that most constitutional scholars and judges don't agree with your sentiments. ;)



As much as you’d like to think you’re above the rules, You have to follow the terms of service of the site. Harassing and trolling members - is against the TOS - Which is what you do 70% of the time I post in the lounge.

If you can’t respond accordingly they why do you keep entering threads i create - knowing your option is vastly different?

Yes you slick insulting to get your point across. Do I need to analyze your posts?

Stop talking for other women and putting words in my mouth.

I never said anyone was a hardened criminal. I said people create laws against commercial sex and law makers are out to enforce them and that if people are going to engage in something that has been deemed illegal they should be careful and have adequate defense if something happens.

I also never said police should not show restraint - I said HOW would they show restraint?

Other judges did approve of delayed search warrants, my opinion doesn’t matter as much as the facts regarding the laws of Florida, and Maybe those constitutional scholars should figure a way to make commercial sex legal

rickdugan
05-17-2019, 07:13 AM
To add, I've been kicking around this industry for a long time and have seen more shady police behavior towards adult workers than I could ever have thought possible. The absurd use of video surveillance to catch consensual sex is just one, along with what they are now trying to do to the woman who gave Kraft the services (they even seized her bank accounts). Every day girls have to worry about their lives being ruined over little shit like violating local ordinances or saying the wrong thing to an undercover. They also know that they are among the most vulnerable to police pullover and searches when they are driving alone home in the dark hours of the night. Police abuse of power is rampant in this business and it is inevitably the most vulnerable girls who bear the brunt of it.

So we should all be in favor of anything that happens to help curb these abuses, whether you are involved in the p4p side of things or not. Because like it or not, you are all in the same boat in the eyes of most LE officers. It is a cause for celebration when their ability to engage in abusive behavior is limited, regardless of whether it took a billionaire getting a blowjob to make that happen.

rickdugan
05-17-2019, 07:39 AM
You must really like law and order you keep bringing that up as a weak insult

Anyways, those men in the other cases were not scared. They were bold enough to go cheat on their spouses, break laws, etc. they simply did not have unlimited money to fight for their justice like Kraft does. Money = power and that’s why Kraft was not scared.

And I highly doubt you give one iota of empathy can caring about anonymous women on this board. You only care about this case because it’s a male doing what you do. Had this been some poor woman or woman of color you’d be ‘trotting’ in this thread screaming ‘lock her up’ or ‘she knew what she was getting in to’


As much as you’d like to think you’re above the rules, You have to follow the terms of service of the site. Harassing and trolling members - is against the TOS - Which is what you do 70% of the time I post in the lounge.

If you can’t respond accordingly they why do you keep entering threads i create - knowing your option is vastly different?

Yes you slick insulting to get your point across. Do I need to analyze your posts?

Stop talking for other women and putting words in my mouth. I never said anyone was a hardened criminal. I said people create laws against commercial sex and law makers are out to enforce them and that if people are going to engage in something that has been deemed illegal they should be careful and have adequate defense if something happens

This is the second time you trotted out this nonsensical harassment narrative when you felt too strongly disagreed with. I'm sorry Miss, but you don't get to dictate how others respond to your posts, including whether they use humor in doing so.

As far as the rest, this is not about customers vs. providers. We all suffer when this stuff happens. I also interact with adult entertainers frequently and am fond of a number of them. They, like me, are just trying to provide for themselves and, in most cases, their children. Nobody deserves this treatment and I adamantly don't agree that anything that they are doing justifies police overreach, nor should we have to defend against or expect it. I am not trying to speak for anyone else per se, but common sense alone would make the likely position of most ladies on this board pretty obvious - unless you think they would welcome additional surveillance. ;)

With all of that said, if I were one of the ladies, I'd find your attitude on this to be thoroughly disheartening and maybe even a little concerning. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion of course, but your continued insistence that these girls should expect behavior of this nature is troubling. How does a girl defend against being secretly recorded? The answer is that she doesn't, which is why our constitutional protections against this behavior by LE are so important.

miss.a.p1600
05-17-2019, 07:55 AM
This is the second time you trotted out this nonsensical harassment narrative when you felt too strongly disagreed with. I'm sorry Miss, but you don't get to dictate how others respond to your posts, including whether they use humor in doing so.

As far as the rest, this is not about customers vs. providers. We all suffer when this stuff happens. I also interact with adult entertainers frequently and am fond of a number of them. They, like me, are just trying to provide for themselves and, in most cases, their children. Nobody deserves this treatment and I adamantly don't agree that anything that they are doing justifies police overreach, nor should we have to defend against or expect it. I am not trying to speak for anyone else per se, but common sense alone would make the likely position of most ladies on this board pretty obvious - unless you think they would welcome additional surveillance. ;)

With all of that said, if I were one of the ladies, I'd find your attitude on this to be thoroughly disheartening and maybe even a little concerning. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion of course, but your continued insistence that these girls should expect behavior of this nature is troubling. How does a girl defend against being secretly recorded? The answer is that she doesn't, which is why our constitutional protections against this behavior by LE are so important.

Well this is the 5th time (maybe more I’m losing count) you have barged in a thread I created just to say something contradictory in a negative fashion just to get attention and not only are you harassing you are stalking and trolling.

You are entitled to your opinion however your incessant need to enter threads I create then use insults masked through humor to get your point across says a lot about your maturity level and your desire to perpetuate trolling behavior.

There are 3 other people who have disagreed with me (which is fine I like hearing opposing views) and they stated their opinions in a mature fashion. This is something you seem to struggle with because you enjoy arguing with women online. Anyways I don’t have anymore time to waste rn.

Right it is nonsense to be a harasser and stalker, so If you don’t like my opinions and/or can’t bring your opposing view in a mature fashion then “trot” right on out the threads it’s that simple.

miss.a.p1600
05-17-2019, 07:57 AM
This is the second time you trotted out this nonsensical harassment narrative when you felt too strongly disagreed with. I'm sorry Miss, but you don't get to dictate how others respond to your posts, including whether they use humor in doing so.

As far as the rest, this is not about customers vs. providers. We all suffer when this stuff happens. I also interact with adult entertainers frequently and am fond of a number of them. They, like me, are just trying to provide for themselves and, in most cases, their children. Nobody deserves this treatment and I adamantly don't agree that anything that they are doing justifies police overreach, nor should we have to defend against or expect it. I am not trying to speak for anyone else per se, but common sense alone would make the likely position of most ladies on this board pretty obvious - unless you think they would welcome additional surveillance. ;)

With all of that said, if I were one of the ladies, I'd find your attitude on this to be thoroughly disheartening and maybe even a little concerning. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion of course, but your continued insistence that these girls should expect behavior of this nature is troubling. How does a girl defend against being secretly recorded? The answer is that she doesn't, which is why our constitutional protections against this behavior by LE are so important.

How does a lady defend herself? Have A LOT of money. The difference between Kraft and those other dudes - lots of extra zeros in his bank account balances

Thank goodness you aren’t one of the ladies on here. They have a lot more class than you

And for the 12th time - stop putting words in my mouth then you wouldn’t be so “concerned”

rickdugan
05-17-2019, 08:39 AM
How does a lady defend herself? Have A LOT of money. The difference between Kraft and those other dudes - lots of extra zeros in his bank account balances

Thank goodness you aren’t one of the ladies on here. They have a lot more class than you

Again, you don't get to control how others respond to what you post and the use of ironic humor does not make a response harassing or abusive. So with that said I'm not going to indulge your complaining about how I disagree with you any further.

He didn't win because he was rich, but because he was right. It just so happens that he had the money to fight blatant police abuse while others do not. This is not a rich vs. poor story, but rather a right vs. wrong one. The sad part is that it took someone with his wealth to keep the police honest. You can keep pushing this narrative about lawbreakers escaping justice because they are rich, but if police were playing by the rules he would never have been in that position in the first place. Now we will all benefit from what he did, including many of the ladies posting on this very board in Other Work and elsewhere, because police won't try that again anytime soon.

Oh, and as far as your class comment, I couldn't agree more. The ladies here are among the classiest anywhere and certainly far more so than a simple meat and potatoes guy like me. ;)

miss.a.p1600
05-17-2019, 09:33 AM
Again. if you have trouble expressing your views in a mature fashion then you are free to leave this thread

I do not control other people’s response but i will call out abusive behaviors. And I will report those behaviors as violating the TOS like you have done numerous times.

What makes your actions harassing is you stalking threads I post knowing good and well you will have a contradictory view then slamming your views any when anyone respectfully disagrees with you, you feel compelled to sprinkle insults disguised as humor to try to “push YOUR narrative”. And the fact you have done this in multiple threads = THAT is harassing and trolling.

rickdugan
05-17-2019, 01:25 PM
Miss, below is compilation of some of your more direct comments on the Kraft topic. Your general feelings on the topics of prostitution and LE's expected response are pretty clear, so I'll let them speak for themselves. It's just too tiring to keep watching you tapdance around the obvious and change old posts to fit a shifting story line.

On a board full of people who worry about LE abuse of power on a regular basis, what were you expecting with comments like these, a statute erected in your honor? ::) This affects a lot of people here on a very personal level. Frankly, those types of judgmental comments also quickly squelch any open dialogue on the topic for anyone who is feeling remotely insecure about it, which in this day and age is almost everyone.




Kraft knew that before he drove to the seedy strip mall to allegedly bust nuts.

So when you do something against the laws even if you think it is harmless and should be legal you have to be ready for the consequences - part of which means having enough money for a Proper defense. Good for the billionaire but not so good for all the others caught up in spa stings that could not afford good defense attorneys

Should have just paid for a flight to some country where this is legal. But I guess they were getting a thrill out of being caught, doing illegal shit, and thinking they could throw more money at the lawyers to beat charges than they would ever pay those women.

He was still allegedly paying for sex/“pr*stitution” acts which is illegal in every state in the US except some areas of Nevada. You make illegal moves then you best be ready to face the consequences

Plenty of ways to bust a nut legally.

Most of us don’t break laws to get sex

Those are NOT his only options. He could have:
1. Jacked off
2. Marry someone closer in age, someone who’d really be down for him
3. Channel that energy elsewhere like creating something, exercising, building something
4. Asked his guy friends who do they know that’s a bonafide freak who wants to get down
5. Decrease his viagra dosage
6. Get treatment for his sex addiction

How can law enforcement be expected to restrain themselves from enforcing laws? I get people make their living from xxx some of which just so happens to be illegal my point is they should exercise extreme caution 1. Learn about the adult business laws 2. Research local stings 3. have some money set aside and some lawyers on deck - just like Kraft did

miss.a.p1600
05-18-2019, 07:40 AM
Miss, below is compilation of some of your more direct comments on the Kraft topic. Your general feelings on the topics of prostitution and LE's expected response are pretty clear, so I'll let them speak for themselves. It's just too tiring to keep watching you tapdance around the obvious and change old posts to fit a shifting story line.

On a board full of people who worry about LE abuse of power on a regular basis, what were you expecting with comments like these, a statute erected in your honor? ::) This affects a lot of people here on a very personal level. Frankly, those types of judgmental comments also quickly squelch any open dialogue on the topic for anyone who is feeling remotely insecure about it, which in this day and age is almost everyone.

Those were my thoughts about Robert Krafts situation. Not anyone here but for some reason you keep making generalizations.

I don’t need to change posts to fit anything. If I edit posts it is simply to make the tone less harsh, to correct grammatical errors, or to more accurately reflect my thoughts than some spur of the moment thought that doesn’t have a lot of thought. Anyhow I dont need and should not have to explain that to you.

If any ladies or men want to have a dialogue they are more than welcome. I’m fact my thoughts are not always set in stone and changed somewhat as Snuffle and slowpoke maturely made their good opposing viewpoints. You should learn from them.

In addition to the conversation i had with the ladies only, I also had a dialogue with a male friend of mine who revealed he has been to an Asian spa and gave an explanation of why politicians won’t make commercial sex legal despite plenty of people desiring it to be legal.

My thoughts about pr*stitution are it should be legal but since it is illegal people need to have discretion (and money) if they don’t want to get caught up. But if you are saying my thoughts are coming across as if I condone law enforcement abuse of power - I do not and thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Anyways, enjoy your day rick! You need some happiness in your life.

rickdugan
05-20-2019, 09:18 PM
As an update, the video has also been thrown out in the cases against Lei Wang and Hua Zhang, two women facing felony charges for deriving support from prostitution. Wang was also one of the two women who allegedly serviced Kraft during his two visits.

https://www.wptv.com/news/region-c-palm-beach-county/west-palm-beach/court-hearing-monday-for-lei-wang-and-hua-zhang-suspects-in-jupiter-spa-prostitution-case

The wins keep piling up for the good guys. Without this video, they don't have a case against anyone. They may have to return the money they seized from these women's bank accounts.

miss.a.p1600
05-20-2019, 10:39 PM
https://nypost.com/2019/05/20/robert-kraft-spa-tapes-tossed-in-case-against-masseuses/amp/

Marx sided with Palm Beach County Judge Leonard Hanser who is presiding over Kraft’s legal proceedings. Both judges said law enforcement didn’t do enough to protect innocent customers, pointing to how the warrant to install cameras in the spa didn’t include instructions on how to minimize surveilling legitimate massages.

Kraft was set to appear before Hanser on Tuesday to set the date for his trial, but the judge canceled the calendar call so prosecutors could appeal the spa surveillance footage motion.

The prosecutors in Wang and Zhang’s case are expected to follow suit.

rickdugan
05-21-2019, 07:10 AM
https://nypost.com/2019/05/20/robert-kraft-spa-tapes-tossed-in-case-against-masseuses/amp/
Kraft was set to appear before Hanser on Tuesday to set the date for his trial, but the judge canceled the calendar call so prosecutors could appeal the spa surveillance footage motion.

The prosecutors in Wang and Zhang’s case are expected to follow suit.

:party::sing: Yup and I for one am thrilled. :tube::drink:

I originally thought that Florida prosecutors would be too embarrassed and ashamed to attempt an appeal, but I underestimated their shamelessness. ;)

I would love to see this go all the way to the Florida Supreme Court and then federal, so I'm beyond pleased that the whipped dogs are going to appeal. In reality though, there are many who suspect that prosecutors are just trying to buy time and save face. Three different FL court judges have ruled against spa video evidence now on substantially the same grounds. I actually wish that police had done a better job on the minimization front so that other core 4th Amendment issues could be litigated up the ladder, but this patient is already dead. No legal analyst that I have read or seen expects prosecutors to win on appeal given how badly police fucked up by failing to apply the most basic minimization guidelines.

JDD
05-24-2019, 06:16 AM
https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/20190523/search-warrant-used-to-catch-robert-kraft-built-for-terrorists-not-johns-critics-say

whirlerz
05-24-2019, 09:52 PM
Why's the NFL mgmnt so quiet on this, when they claimed to "treat him like everyone else that has been involved w/this stuff?"::)

Whole thing's a fuckin' joke, old Mr $ gets caught, gets slapped w/a fine or less, someone else steals a cracker & they're up for long term.
WHAT.A.SURPRISE!::)
We all know he's going to win, no matter what, he has the most $'s & the best lawyers!

LOL.

miss.a.p1600
05-24-2019, 09:56 PM
^yeah pretty much similar to what I mentioned before.

Nfl is quick to cut players for petty shit

And the rules of professional conduct are supposed to apply to players AND managers/owners

But......


Oh and he “allegedly” got caught and “won” his case sort of by default. They have evidence of him breaking a law of Florida statues but that evidence is inadmissible because while trying to catch what they initially thought was trafficking then “johns” soliciting “pr*stitution”, the prosecutors also filmed women getting nude for legit massages. There was also the question of the extreme measure (video surveillance of the acts) not typically used in pr*stitution stings

The prosecutors are appealing so I don’t believe he has won quiet yet

rickdugan
05-25-2019, 10:09 AM
Right now it is widely believed in sports media circles that the most likely outcome will be a fine. You don't throw the book at a guy whose sole crime involved having consensual sex with a willing adult partner, even if it was the paid kind.

Besides, how many of the old billionaire male NFL team owners do you really believe have not paid for sex at some point in some form or fashion? For most of them, the sheer hypocrisy of insisting that the Commissioner string Kraft up would be mind bending and could expose them to the same treatment if someone spoke out against them. Net-net nobody involved with the NFL wants something this silly to be a hanging offense.

But the NFL can't move until it knows more. There hasn't even been a trial and they don't have access to the video, so there is nothing concrete for them to act on. The appeal doesn't even start until sometime in September, so we likely won't see anything happen for some months now.

miss.a.p1600
05-25-2019, 02:24 PM
Humans are hypocrites - especially politicians and law makers.

Elliot spitzer led a full on ‘war against pr*stitution whilst at the same time frequenting escorts’ - he got caught up with the exact same patriot act laws and solicitation laws that he helped put in place

It is what it is. That’s just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.

And I doubt anyone is trying to ‘throw the book at him’. At most he will incur fines as mentioned which is basically chump change to him.

whirlerz
05-25-2019, 04:38 PM
You don't throw the book at a guy whose sole crime involved having consensual sex with .
The appeal doesn't even start until sometime in September, so we likely won't see anything happen for some months now.

^^^NO!!!

However will we be able to to GO ON til then???:O:faint::yikes:

Zofia
05-25-2019, 07:00 PM
I guess I'm also trying to figure out the legislators reasoning for enacting such laws and statutes such as Florida's record keeping, US Patriot Act, Delayed Search, etc if they go against the constitution. But that may be for another thread.


This is why we have the doctrine of judicial review. You will recall from your U.S. History course, or Civics course in high school that the U.S. Supreme Court and all our inferior courts have the authority to review the acts of the legislative and executive branches of government. Because of the doctrine of judicial review, I think legislators care a lot less about the constitutionality of the laws they pass. They pass legislation to satisfy whoever is lobbying (paying) them and let the courts sort it out later.

Z

OmegaWest
05-25-2019, 08:23 PM
you two realize your fussing over misdemeanors. Even if the tape had been admissible, its two misdemeanors that are nothing but a fine to begin with.

If anything this thread needs to be locked because its old freaking news over MISDEMEANORS!!

( for those who dont know what a misdemeanor is, think speeding ticket and your in the same ballpark)

miss.a.p1600
05-25-2019, 08:35 PM
This is why we have the doctrine of judicial review. You will recall from your U.S. History course, or Civics course in high school that the U.S. Supreme Court and all our inferior courts have the authority to review the acts of the legislative and executive branches of government. Because of the doctrine of judicial review, I think legislators care a lot less about the constitutionality of the laws they pass. They pass legislation to satisfy whoever is lobbying (paying) them and let the courts sort it out later.

Z

I hated government and history classes. Important but boring af to me. I’ll look into those concepts now that you mention it though.

miss.a.p1600
05-25-2019, 08:38 PM
you two realize your fussing over misdemeanors. Even if the tape had been admissible, its two misdemeanors that are nothing but a fine to begin with.

If anything this thread needs to be locked because its old freaking news over MISDEMEANORS!!

( for those who dont know what a misdemeanor is, think speeding ticket and your in the same ballpark)


Actually it’s not old news (well maybe the video evidence is ) as there are still developments in the case. Especially given it has spawned off the class action lawsuit as a result and the prosecution appeal

And I am not trying to fuss with anyone because I want to hear a variety of points of views.

Maybe it sounds like debate - which I can only speak for myself and my intention to keep it mature n respectful. Most other people have kept things civil as well.

I think things are chill for now though .....

whirlerz
05-26-2019, 05:20 PM
Well, some people are cheering it on like it's a landmark case or something.

Lol, we all know what misdemeanors are.

rickdugan
05-27-2019, 07:02 AM
Well, some people are cheering it on like it's a landmark case or something.

Lol, we all know what misdemeanors are.

It's not the crimes involved, but the tactics used to catch them that are the issue. Using invasive "snake and peak" warrants to catch sex between consenting adults - paid or otherwise - is indeed a landmark issue. If this is allowed to continue, the consequences could be numerous and far reaching.

I'm surprised that this is still lost on some.