View Full Version : How long do you think the CORONA virus will last?
miss.a.p1600
03-29-2020, 09:18 PM
^ Forget him....I’m social distancing till these cases go down
Mfs can jump in this human Petri dish of deadly viruses if they want to......
I bet T.rump is behind the scenes bathing n sanitizer and self tanning bronzer
Make sure you get disability n life insurance if you have to go out here with these people.
laurielegs
03-29-2020, 11:37 PM
Was the demand for ventilators during H1N1 as great as it is now? I don't live in NY so I don't know. If you could reference an article relating to this, I'd really like to know more.
What most people don't realize (and I didn't either until the last week or so) is that this disease is so severe in the ones who are being hospitalized that some of them take up a ventilator for weeks at a time (even the younger patients) before they finally either fully recover or die. This is why they are running out of ventilators and beds.
The huge numbers of people they are trying to all save at the same time are actually a bigger problem than the death rate because they are flooding the hospitals, causing medical staff to have to decide who to save and which to let die.
I'm annoyed that the deaths are getting so much attention and not the huge illness and lung damage (disabling in some cases) are not being discussed that much. It sounds like a nightmare being stuck in a hospital bed for weeks and weeks with a machine breathing for you.
arielbriel
03-30-2020, 12:11 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J0d59dd-qM&fbclid=IwAR1vOW2Eqa8TW8vgnl55gA-18EZ_Hgz86RRfmU8M5UD6G9cd2kC4H8Y58PI
laurielegs
03-30-2020, 12:34 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J0d59dd-qM&fbclid=IwAR1vOW2Eqa8TW8vgnl55gA-18EZ_Hgz86RRfmU8M5UD6G9cd2kC4H8Y58PI
Damn that video is scary.
Nice to hear from a doctor who explains it well though. The numbers though, damn.
Eric Stoner
03-30-2020, 07:42 AM
Cuomo became governor in 2010. H1 N1 was still an issue back then. Rather than set up a reserve of PPE and ventilators Cuomo put money into solar panels and a chip factory in Utica that is now closed.
The first U.S. case of Covid19 was reported on January 20. On January 31, Trump put a travel ban into effect blocking Chinese entry into the U.S. for which he was vilified and excoriated for being "racist " , "xenophobic " and other pleasant things. On February 2, NYC's Health 'Commissioner encouraged everyone to attend Chinese New Year Celebrations. Around the same time i.e. end of January ; beginning of February , Dr. Fauci was downplaying the threat of Covid-19. China was LYING about the person to person threat of Covid-19.
After the threat became clearer it was Fauci and the CDC that insisted that THEIR test and ONLY their test be used. At first, everything had to go through the CDC lab in Atlanta. It was TRUMP who insisted that they cut through the bureaucratic bullshit and have localized testing AND use other effective tests.
Was Trump too slow to act ? Maybe. Did he downplay the threat EARLY ON ? Yes. We all know he has a habit of opening his mouth with half baked information. Would it have been better if these and other steps had been taken sooner ? Yes. BUT , I repeat my question : Name one public figure ; nationally known health expert or the like who was telling Trump to do this or that back in January? Because that is the earliest at which a POSSIBLE threat was known. At the time China was not forthcoming with essential info and data.
Mardis Gras was not cancelled. New Orleans is now a "hot spot". Spring Break went on in Fla. and Texas in defiance of social distancing guidelines that were around at the time. Those inconsiderate and partially educated brats then dispersed throughout the rest of the country.The NYC School Chancellor and the village idiot serving as Mayor kept the schools open and threatened retaliation against anyone reporting Covid illnesses in the schools. Up to a few days ago NYC's parks were crowded and people were still playing basketball and soccer. Now how pray tell was any of that Trump's fault ?
Where was the media in January and February ? Where were the Democrats ? Feinstein was part of the "secret briefing " on Corona virus and all she did in response was to bail out of the stock market.
The earliest mention of Corona virus in THIS board was March 7. This is a very hip and well informed group and we were behind the curve, at least according to Eagle and some other sophisticates.
Re-read the history of AIDS and the public health response thereto and you will see a LOT of missteps, foot dragging and head in the sand attitudes. Same for SARS , MERS and H1N1. Covid19 IS different in that it is far more infectious than the last three epidemics cited . Looked at this year's Flu statistics ? A lot more people have died from the flu than the Corona virus. So far.
miss.a.p1600
03-30-2020, 09:03 AM
https://youtu.be/JxG241bExqY
miss.a.p1600
03-30-2020, 09:08 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lDjVKMXPMM&list=WL&index=7&t=0s
Michael Bamberg
3 days ago
January 22: “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. It’s going to be just fine.”
February 2: “We pretty much shut it down coming in from China.”
Feb 15th 15 cases
February 24: “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA… Stock Market starting to look very good to me!”
Feb 24th 53 cases
February 25: “CDC and my Administration are doing a GREAT job of handling Coronavirus.”
February 25: “I think that's a problem that’s going to go away… They have studied it. They know very much. In fact, we’re very close to a vaccine.”
Feb 25th 57 cases
February 26: “The 15 (cases in the US) within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero.”
February 26: “We're going very substantially down, not up.”
Feb 26th 60 cases
February 27: “One day it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”
Feb 27th 60 cases
February 28: “We're ordering a lot of supplies. We're ordering a lot of, uh, elements that frankly we wouldn't be ordering unless it was something like this. But we're ordering a lot of different elements of medical.”
Feb 28th 63 cases
March 2: “You take a solid flu vaccine, you don't think that could have an impact, or much of an impact, on corona?”
March 2: “A lot of things are happening, a lot of very exciting things are happening and they’re happening very rapidly.”
Mar 2nd 100 cases & 6 deaths
March 4: “If we have thousands or hundreds of thousands of people that get better just by, you know, sitting around and even going to work — some of them go to work, but they get better.”
Mar 4th 158 cases & 11 deaths
March 5: “I NEVER said people that are feeling sick should go to work.”
March 5: “The United States… has, as of now, only 129 cases… and 11 deaths. We are working very hard to keep these numbers as low as possible!”
Mar 5th 221 cases & 12 deaths
March 6: “I think we’re doing a really good job in this country at keeping it down… a tremendous job at keeping it down.”
March 6: “Anybody right now, and yesterday, anybody that needs a test gets a test. They’re there. And the tests are beautiful…. the tests are all perfect like the letter was perfect. The transcription was perfect. Right? This was not as perfect as that but pretty good.”
March 6: “I like this stuff. I really get it. People are surprised that I understand it… Every one of these doctors said, ‘How do you know so much about this?’ Maybe I have a natural ability. Maybe I should have done that instead of running for president.”
March 6: “I don't need to have the numbers double because of one ship that wasn't our fault.”
Mar 6th 319 cases
March 8: “We have a perfectly coordinated and fine tuned plan at the White House for our attack on CoronaVirus.”
Mar 8th 541 cases & 15 deaths
March 9: “This blindsided the world.”
March 9: "The Fake News Media and their partner, the Democrat Party, is doing everything within its semi-considerable power (it used to be greater!) to inflame the CoronaVirus situation, far beyond what the facts would warrant.”
Mar 9th 704 cases & 26 deaths
March 10: "It will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away."
March 10: “As you know, it’s about 600 cases, it’s about 26 deaths, within our country. And had we not acted quickly, that number would have been substantially more.”
March 10: “And it hit the world. And we’re prepared, and we’re doing a great job with it. And it will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.”
Mar 10th 994 cases & 30 deaths
March 11: “I think we’re going to get through it very well.”
Mar 11th 1301 cases & 38 deaths
March 12: “It’s going to go away. ... The United States, because of what I did and what the administration did with China, we have 32 deaths at this point … when you look at the kind of numbers that you’re seeing coming out of other countries, it’s pretty amazing when you think of it.”
Mar 12th 1630 cases & 41 deaths
March 13: Says Food and Drug Administration “will bring, additionally, 1.4 million tests on board next week and 5 million within a month. I doubt we’ll need anywhere near that.”
Mar 13th 2183 cases & 48 deaths
March 14: “We’re using the full power of the federal government to defeat the virus, and that’s what we’ve been doing.” Also retweeted supporter Candace Owens who cited “good news” on coronavirus, including that, “Italy is hit hard, experts say, because they have the oldest population in Europe (average age of those that have died is 81).”
Mar 14th 2770 cases & 57 deaths
March 15: “This is a very contagious virus. It’s incredible. But it’s something that we have tremendous control over.”
Mar 15th 3613 cases & 69 deaths
March 16: “If you’re talking about the virus, no, that’s not under control for any place in the world. ... I was talking about what we’re doing is under control, but I’m not talking about the virus.”
Mar 16th 4596cases & 87 deaths
March 17: “We’re going to win. And I think we’re going to win faster than people think -- I hope.”
Mar 17th 6344 cases & 110 deaths
Mar 24: “I’d love to have the country opened up and just raring to go by Easter,”
Mar 24th 54,856 cases & 780 deaths
Mar 25th 68211 cases and 1027 dead
By APR 12th ? cases and ? deaths
Eric Stoner
03-30-2020, 10:29 AM
All TRUE and WHO was saying different. WHO was telling Trump : "Mr. President we have to go to Def-Con 4 on this NOW ! ". It wasn't Fauci or other so-called experts at the CDC.
Yes, Trump spouted stuff that turned out NOT to be true BUT name one thing the "experts" told him to do that he didn't do . Travel ban on China ? He did it despite vicious criticism. Travel ban on Europe ? Same.
Yes, he is chomping at the bit to reopen the country. Who isn't ? But when Fauci and Birx told him that doing so around Easter was not a good idea, he extended the guidelines to April 30.
Frankly (as I've previously posted) I have much bigger problems with Fauci than I do with Trump. More nonsense came out of Fauci's mouth EARLY ON than Trump's WHEN you take into account Fauci's training , expertise and experience. He is VERY doctrinaire , VERY conventional and totally incapable of thinking outside the box at all. The primary responsibility for delays in testing and the resulting crappy info going to Trump is the CDC's and Fauci's. Delays in using hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin ( and other off-label therapies ) are partly thanks to Fauci. Again Trump pushed the FDA to approve a number of novel yet partially proven therapies.
Some of Trump's blather can probably be explained or excused by a natural desire not to create a panic. Some was probably owing to his being distracted by the Impeachmant process ; remember that ? We can have a good faith discussion as to whether Covd19 ought to have been taken more seriously earlier on by EVERYBODY. Do your research and see what the village idiot Mayor of NYC was saying just 2 or 3 weeks ago. Feinstein got a secret briefing on JANUARY 24. We haven't heard a peep out of her. Obama gets daily intel briefings as a former Prez. What's he had to say ?
Where were Dr. Gupta and Dr. Oz back in January ? In February ?
If you want to point a finger at BOTH parties and government in general, that's fine. There's plenty of blame to go around.
I will say one thing : It would have been better if a known germaphobe like Trump had been a little quicker out of the blocks.
Eric Stoner
03-30-2020, 10:50 AM
In one way we are all victims , in part , of our own medical and scientific community and their flawed models and sclerotic thinking.
If I were Trump I would lean on Fauci and Birx and tell them to stop worrying about JAMA's publishing standards and forget about randomized, double blind studies as far as THIS virus is concerned. If we have to cut corners on getting out an effective vaccine , I say DO IT. If there is evidence that chloroquine and other things are effective anti-virals then leave it between the doctor and patient.
The delays we had in setting up effective testing were thanks to the CDC and Fauci. What Trump said about testing came primarily from Fauci and Birx.
Not imposing social distancing earlier was partly Trump's fault but also a LOT of Mayors and Governors. Who let Mardis Gras go on ? Who let the Spring Breakers mob South Beach , Daytona , Panama City and South Padre ? Btw does anyone know if the Spring Breakers hit Palm Springs this year ?
Who didn't enforce social distancing in NYC's parks and playgrounds ?
Who didn't close NYC schools until it was too late ? It wasn't Trump.
miss.a.p1600
03-30-2020, 02:29 PM
Would federal regulations have to be in place first?
I’m just wondering because I figured mayors and governors would simply follow the lead of the president on something like this?
Also some mayors were getting heat for not acting sooner as well
https://youtu.be/nWCSW-X3HsE
eagle2
03-30-2020, 04:53 PM
Cuomo became governor in 2010. H1 N1 was still an issue back then. Rather than set up a reserve of PPE and ventilators Cuomo put money into solar panels and a chip factory in Utica that is now closed.
Cuomo wa elected in Nov. 2010 and took office in 2011.
The first U.S. case of Covid19 was reported on January 20. On January 31, Trump put a travel ban into effect blocking Chinese entry into the U.S. for which he was vilified and excoriated for being "racist " , "xenophobic " and other pleasant things. On February 2, NYC's Health 'Commissioner encouraged everyone to attend Chinese New Year Celebrations. Around the same time i.e. end of January ; beginning of February , Dr. Fauci was downplaying the threat of Covid-19. China was LYING about the person to person threat of Covid-19.
After the threat became clearer it was Fauci and the CDC that insisted that THEIR test and ONLY their test be used. At first, everything had to go through the CDC lab in Atlanta. It was TRUMP who insisted that they cut through the bureaucratic bullshit and have localized testing AND use other effective tests.
Was Trump too slow to act ? Maybe. Did he downplay the threat EARLY ON ? Yes. We all know he has a habit of opening his mouth with half baked information. Would it have been better if these and other steps had been taken sooner ? Yes. BUT , I repeat my question : Name one public figure ; nationally known health expert or the like who was telling Trump to do this or that back in January? Because that is the earliest at which a POSSIBLE threat was known. At the time China was not forthcoming with essential info and data.
Again, as I stated in my previous post, Trump was given warnings back in January and February by our intelligence agencies, of the seriousness of the coronavirus outbreak. Trump chose not to take the warnings seriously. Here's the link again:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/us-intelligence-reports-from-january-and-february-warned-about-a-likely-pandemic/2020/03/20/299d8cda-6ad5-11ea-b5f1-a5a804158597_story.html
U.S. intelligence agencies were issuing ominous, classified warnings in January and February about the global danger posed by the coronavirus while President Trump and lawmakers played down the threat and failed to take action that might have slowed the spread of the pathogen, according to U.S. officials familiar with spy agency reporting.
This reminds me a lot of George W Bush being warned by our intelligence agencies that Bin Ladin was planning to attack the US, and Bush refused to take the warnings seriously.
If anything, Trump was impeding testing, because he was concerned about how it would affect his chance of being re-elected.
From:
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/03/trump-reportedly-afraid-coronavirus-testing-could-hurt-reelection-chances
As the coronavirus crisis escalated in recent days, Donald Trump repeatedly cast the pandemic as something nobody could have seen coming. “Who would have thought?” he said during a recent trip to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. “Who would have thought we would even be having the subject?” But according to Politico’s Dan Diamond, Trump’s own White House recognized the gravity of the public health emergency, but the president personally undermined its response, seemingly more concerned about how it all would impact his reelection bid.
Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar raised alarms with Trump that the novel coronavirus “could be a major problem,” according to Diamond. And yet the president declined to act with urgency, refusing to push for testing that could lead to a larger number of confirmed cases in the United States that would undercut his efforts to play down the threat. “He did not push to do aggressive testing in recent weeks, and that’s partly because more testing might have led to more cases being discovered of coronavirus outbreak,” Diamond told NPR’s Fresh Air Thursday. “And the president had made clear—the lower the numbers on coronavirus, the better for the president, the better for his potential reelection this fall.”
Contrast Trump's response to South Korea's:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-testing-specialrep/special-report-how-korea-trounced-u-s-in-race-to-test-people-for-coronavirus-idUSKBN2153BW
SEOUL - In late January, South Korean health officials summoned representatives from more than 20 medical companies from their lunar New Year celebrations to a conference room tucked inside Seoul’s busy train station.
One of the country’s top infectious disease officials delivered an urgent message: South Korea needed an effective test immediately to detect the novel coronavirus, then running rampant in China. He promised the companies swift regulatory approval.
Though there were only four known cases in South Korea at that point, “we were very nervous. We believed that it could develop into a pandemic,” one attendee, Lee Sang-won, an infectious diseases expert at the Korea Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, told Reuters.
“We acted like an army,” he said.
A week after the Jan. 27 meeting, South Korea’s CDC approved one company’s diagnostic test. Another company soon followed. By the end of February, South Korea was making headlines around the world for its drive-through screening centers and ability to test thousands of people daily.
South Korea’s swift action stands in stark contrast to what has transpired in the United States. Seven weeks after the train station meeting, the Koreans have tested well over 290,000 people and identified over 8,000 infections. New cases are falling off: Ninety-three were reported Wednesday, down from a daily peak of 909 two weeks earlier.
The United States, whose first case was detected the same day as South Korea’s, is not even close to meeting demand for testing. About 60,000 tests have been run by public and private labs in a country of 330 million, federal officials said Tuesday.
In South Korea, less than 160 people have died so far. In the US, it's approximately 3,000. That's the difference between taking the threat seriously from the time it was first discovered and waiting until it reached crisis levels before taking it seriously.
Trump should have ramped up testing from day one as well as production of medical equipment and supplies. In February, Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar asked for $2 billion to buy respirator masks and other supplies for a depleted federal stockpile of emergency medical equipment. The White House reduced this to $500 million.
See:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/desperate-for-medical-equipment-states-encounter-a-beleaguered-national-stockpile/2020/03/28/1f4f9a0a-6f82-11ea-aa80-c2470c6b2034_story.html
Mardis Gras was not cancelled. New Orleans is now a "hot spot". Spring Break went on in Fla. and Texas in defiance of social distancing guidelines that were around at the time. Those inconsiderate and partially educated brats then dispersed throughout the rest of the country.The NYC School Chancellor and the village idiot serving as Mayor kept the schools open and threatened retaliation against anyone reporting Covid illnesses in the schools. Up to a few days ago NYC's parks were crowded and people were still playing basketball and soccer. Now how pray tell was any of that Trump's fault ?
Where was the media in January and February ? Where were the Democrats ? Feinstein was part of the "secret briefing " on Corona virus and all she did in response was to bail out of the stock market.
The earliest mention of Corona virus in THIS board was March 7. This is a very hip and well informed group and we were behind the curve, at least according to Eagle and some other sophisticates.
Re-read the history of AIDS and the public health response thereto and you will see a LOT of missteps, foot dragging and head in the sand attitudes. Same for SARS , MERS and H1N1. Covid19 IS different in that it is far more infectious than the last three epidemics cited . Looked at this year's Flu statistics ? A lot more people have died from the flu than the Corona virus. So far.
Not everyone has access to the same information as Trump does. Nobody here or in the media has access to classified reports from U.S. intelligence agencies. Trump does. Trump was warned of the serious threat coronavirus imposes, and he chose not to take any action, other than halting flights from China. Trump should have ordered the stay at home policies on a national level back in January, or February at the latest, rather than do nothing and wait for the states to do it as it reached crisis level in one state after another. It's doubtful that every single death could have been prevented, but if Trump had taken strong measures from day one, the total number of deaths would be a lot less than 3,000, and there currently wouldn't be more than 160,000 confirmed cases. Taiwan and Singapore took this threat very seriously, and so far only 5 people have died in Taiwan and 3 people in Singapore.
eagle2
03-30-2020, 04:57 PM
All TRUE and WHO was saying different. WHO was telling Trump : "Mr. President we have to go to Def-Con 4 on this NOW ! ". It wasn't Fauci or other so-called experts at the CDC.
Many people were, confidentially.
Eric Stoner
04-02-2020, 07:36 AM
If this was such a major issue and so much was known so early where was the media ? Where were the Dems who got confidential briefings as early as January 24 ? California shut down pretty quickly and has seen a lesser impact than New York. Where were Cuomo and The Village Idiot ?
I have nothing against blaming Trump BUT if he relies on experts like Fauci and Birx ( and he clearly does ) then it is they who had the PRIMARY responsibility of advising him. Nobody can point to a single recommendation from them that Trump has not done.
Government always has a lag factor. It is like trying to turn around an aircraft carrier. Things take time.
Fauci in late January - "Corona virus is no cause for alarm "
Feb. 2 - NYC officials were saying:" the risk is low and our preparedness is high ."
Feb. 3 - Washington Post - "Be wary of excessive government response to the corona virus "
March 3 - The Village Idiot of NYC - "Get out on the town. No reason to worry ". At the time, neither NYC nor NYS had stockpiles of ventilators and PPE.
Btw, Cuomo was advised in 2015 to increase New York's supply of ventilators.
If you want to blame anyone, blame the Chinese Government. Their wet markets bred this virus unless you believe it came from one of THEIR "research labs" in Wuhan. They have lied and suppressed info from day one. They persecuted doctors and deported reporters who tried to spread the word. They have turned the WHO into their toady, lackey and handmaiden. They are still lying about the rate of new cases and the death rate. Their crematoria are still going 24/7 non-stop.
Feb.5 - Rosie Spinks at the N.Y. Times - "Travel ban is unjust and doesn't work anyway ".
Eric Stoner
04-02-2020, 07:41 AM
Cuomo wa elected in Nov. 2010 and took office in 2011.
Again, as I stated in my previous post, Trump was given warnings back in January and February by our intelligence agencies, of the seriousness of the coronavirus outbreak. Trump chose not to take the warnings seriously. Here's the link again:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/us-intelligence-reports-from-january-and-february-warned-about-a-likely-pandemic/2020/03/20/299d8cda-6ad5-11ea-b5f1-a5a804158597_story.html
This reminds me a lot of George W Bush being warned by our intelligence agencies that Bin Ladin was planning to attack the US, and Bush refused to take the warnings seriously.
If anything, Trump was impeding testing, because he was concerned about how it would affect his chance of being re-elected.
From:
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/03/trump-reportedly-afraid-coronavirus-testing-could-hurt-reelection-chances
Contrast Trump's response to South Korea's:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-testing-specialrep/special-report-how-korea-trounced-u-s-in-race-to-test-people-for-coronavirus-idUSKBN2153BW
In South Korea, less than 160 people have died so far. In the US, it's approximately 3,000. That's the difference between taking the threat seriously from the time it was first discovered and waiting until it reached crisis levels before taking it seriously.
Trump should have ramped up testing from day one as well as production of medical equipment and supplies. In February, Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar asked for $2 billion to buy respirator masks and other supplies for a depleted federal stockpile of emergency medical equipment. The White House reduced this to $500 million.
See:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/desperate-for-medical-equipment-states-encounter-a-beleaguered-national-stockpile/2020/03/28/1f4f9a0a-6f82-11ea-aa80-c2470c6b2034_story.html
Not everyone has access to the same information as Trump does. Nobody here or in the media has access to classified reports from U.S. intelligence agencies. Trump does. Trump was warned of the serious threat coronavirus imposes, and he chose not to take any action, other than halting flights from China. Trump should have ordered the stay at home policies on a national level back in January, or February at the latest, rather than do nothing and wait for the states to do it as it reached crisis level in one state after another. It's doubtful that every single death could have been prevented, but if Trump had taken strong measures from day one, the total number of deaths would be a lot less than 3,000, and there currently wouldn't be more than 160,000 confirmed cases. Taiwan and Singapore took this threat very seriously, and so far only 5 people have died in Taiwan and 3 people in Singapore.
Both Taiwan and Singapore are semi-democracies with much more authoritarian governments than ours.
Trump relied on the GOVERNORS to set policy as to lockdowns. Some took it seriously early on like Gavin Newsom. Some sat on their hands and let Mardi Gras and Spring Break happen. Speaking of Spring Break there was a group of 38 knuckleheads who traveled and partied together. 17 have now tested positive.
Eric Stoner
04-02-2020, 07:56 AM
As for Dr. Fauci I am growing more and more disenchanted with him by the day. In addition to his past mistakes , NOW he is slow walking anti-body testing when we should be fast tracking it. The models he insists on using have already been shown to be flawed as to the total number of infections ( without anti-body testing we do NOT know how many people had the virus and have now recovered and can safely be sent back to work ) ; the true survival rate and the actual death rate from Covid19.
Despite more and more studies from highly respected doctors showing that hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin are very effective in lessening and shortening symptoms including a small double blind study from China using chloroquine alone , Fauci insists that a RANDOM double blind study is the only way to go.
Let me ask you folks : If you or a loved one were sick with corona please raise your hand if you would be willing to get a sugar pill instead of drugs already proven to lessen and shorten your illness and most importantly , keep you off a respirator ? THAT is random , double blind testing and in the current circumstances I think it is immoral. Yet Fauci and Birx are still championing it as the best way to go. If the studies involved a brand new drug without a track record or a combo of ginseng and herb tea then I think Fauci's attitude and pronouncements would be justified. But NOT under current circumstances with more and more positive results being reported.
eagle2
04-02-2020, 12:03 PM
If this was such a major issue and so much where was the media ? Where were the Dems who got confidential briefings as early as January 24 ? California shut down pretty quickly and has seen a lesser impact than New York. Where were Cuomo and The Village Idiot ?
Here's a statement from CT Senator Murphy from Feb. 5:
https://twitter.com/chrismurphyct/status/1225073987639705600?lang=en
Just left the Administration briefing on Coronavirus. Bottom line: they aren't taking this seriously enough.
Notably, no request for ANY emergency funding, which is a big mistake. Local health systems need supplies, training, screening staff etc. And they need it now.
I have nothing against blaming Trump BUT if he relies on experts like Fauci and Birx ( and he clearly does ) then it is they who had the PRIMARY responsibility of advising him. Nobody can point to a single recommendation from them that Trump has not done.
Again, Trump received classified briefings on the seriousness of the virus back in January. Based on Senator Murphy's above statement, our government was aware of the dire situation. People have been calling for Trump to enact the Defense Production Act which gives him the power to order industries to increase production of certain products needed in a national emergency. So far he's refused to do that. Governors are begging Trump to provide them with more ventilators and other needed medical equipment, and they're not getting what they need. Trump said "it's a two-way street. They need to be nice to him". He doesn't understand, this is his job and he's not doing it for the governors, he's doing it for the American people. We're still behind many other countries when it comes to testing.
Government always has a lag factor. It is like trying to turn around an aircraft carrier. Things take time.
There are things Trump could do that would have an immediate impact, such as enact "social distancing" and "stay at home" policies on a national level, or order industry to increase production on ventilators and other necessary medical equipment, as well as testing.
Fauci in late January - "Corona virus is no cause for alarm "
Feb. 2 - NYC officials were saying:" the risk is low and our preparedness is high ."
Feb. 3 - Washington Post - "Be wary of excessive government response to the corona virus "
March 3 - The Village Idiot of NYC - "Get out on the town. No reason to worry ". At the time, neither NYC nor NYS had stockpiles of ventilators and PPE.
Btw, Cuomo was advised in 2015 to increase New York's supply of ventilators.
Again, Trump received briefings of the seriousness of the virus back in January, and instead of taking action, he tried to minimize the threat in public. Senator Murphy received classified briefings and he knew of the seriousness of the threat back in Feb., based on his above statement.
If you want to blame anyone, blame the Chinese Government. Their wet markets bred this virus unless you believe it came from one of THEIR "research labs" in Wuhan. They have lied and suppressed info from day one. They persecuted doctors and deported reporters who tried to spread the word. They have turned the WHO into their toady, lackey and handmaiden. They are still lying about the rate of new cases and the death rate. Their crematoria are still going 24/7 non-stop.
Feb.5 - Rosie Spinks at the N.Y. Times - "Travel ban is unjust and doesn't work anyway ".
I don't think anyone disputes that Chinese wet markets are abhorrent and should have been shutdown a long time ago. That doesn't change the fact that there is a lot Trump could have done, but didn't do, which could prevented the crisis from becoming as bad is it has. As you mentioned above, California shut down early. If California knew of the seriousness of this virus and had the foresight to shut down, there's no reason Trump couldn't have done that for the entire country.
eagle2
04-02-2020, 12:07 PM
Both Taiwan and Singapore are semi-democracies with much more authoritarian governments than ours.
Taiwan probably is as free and democratic as the U.S., and their government has been a lot more transparent than ours, on the coronavirus.
From:
https://www.wired.com/story/taiwan-is-beating-the-coronavirus-can-the-us-do-the-same/
But Taiwan’s own success at building a functional democracy is probably the most potent rebuke to the Asian values thesis. The democracy activists who risked their lives and careers during the island nation’s martial law era were not renowned for their willingness to accept government orders or preach Confucian social harmony. Stevan Harrell, an anthropologist at the University of Washington who has conducted field research in both China and Taiwan, suggested that some of the current willingness to trust what the government is telling the people is the direct “result of having experienced the transition from an authoritarian government that lied all the time, to a democratic government and robust political dialogue that forced people to be able to evaluate information.”
Trump relied on the GOVERNORS to set policy as to lockdowns. Some took it seriously early on like Gavin Newsom. Some sat on their hands and let Mardi Gras and Spring Break happen. Speaking of Spring Break there was a group of 38 knuckleheads who traveled and partied together. 17 have now tested positive.
There was no reason for Trump to rely on governors to do something that he should have done himself.
R-209
04-02-2020, 09:06 PM
So how pissed should I be when a guy comes to my home to work on exercise equipment (that should have been fixed in December)... and takes NO Coronavirus precautions whatsoever? He doesn't even use the hand sanitizer I set out. I might not have been as upset if he actually fixed the goddamn machine.
miss.a.p1600
04-03-2020, 07:16 AM
^That would be annoying imo
baer45
04-03-2020, 12:57 PM
https://youtu.be/NAh4uS4f78o
baer45
04-03-2020, 08:25 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxROKabhDP8
rickdugan
04-03-2020, 10:06 PM
Look, the simple fact is that nobody knew what was coming. Dumb things were said and done by politicians on both sides of the aisle, as evidenced by the numerous examples outlined in this thread. Early on I think our leaders drew a false sense of comfort from the case reporting coming out of China and only now are we starting to learn the extent to which the Chinese fed the world complete crap regarding its full impact on them.
It wasn't until this thing hit Italy and then NYC in numbers that we started to realize the full scope and I can't criticize leaders on either aisle for initially underestimating the scope. Nor for that matter will I criticize the leaders from either side for what they have done to address this. All involved have taken unprecedentedly massive steps to fight this, including the use of all of their powers in dedicating massive human and economic resources to the fight. Hindsight is 20/20 and I'm not going to give Cuomo crap for not spending money on ventilators that nobody could have foreseen needing in such numbers any more than I'm going to give Trump crap for trying to preserve a semblance of economic normalcy until he had no choice but to do otherwise.
As far as I can tell, everyone involved was trying to do their respective jobs as best they could with incomplete information and lots of competing priorities. To me what is important is that when it was finally clear that the shit was hitting the fan, all parties involved stepped up in their various roles.
CFMNH44
04-04-2020, 06:29 AM
Politicians spewing bullshit or plain out lying. Finally the CDC says to wear a face mask, after two weeks of advising not to because they wanted all masks for first responders.
The media isn't much better, acting like a bunch of junior high school b*tches. Only the bravest will say China's data 'Is questionable' about death numbers. Their crematoriums have been running 24/7, tens of thousands of funeral urns delivered, millions of cell phone accounts cancelled, etc.
miss.a.p1600
04-04-2020, 07:34 AM
To say no one saw what was coming is a lie.
Bill Gates warned T. rump about pandemic several times and you know what he (and other narcissistic politicians) did......ignored
Why? Because their priorities are all jacked up
https://youtu.be/as9JRKed7Cs
miss.a.p1600
04-04-2020, 08:12 AM
How long do I think Coronavirus will last?
Long enough for unsavory so called leaders to capitalize off keeping people panic spending
miss.a.p1600
04-04-2020, 08:18 AM
No one saw what was coming? ....
Senator Burr sold 1.6 mill in stock before Coronavirus stock market crash https://www.foxnews.com/politics/sen-richard-burr-sold-stock-stock-market-coronavirus
Feinstein and senate colleagues sold off stocks before Coronavirus crash https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dianne-feinstein-3-senate-colleagues-sold-off-stocks-before-coronavirus-crash-reports
Senators received a closed-door briefing on the risks of the coronavirus on Feb. 12, the day before Burr began many of his stock sales. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/19/reports-burr-loeffler-sold-stocks-ahead-coronavirus-marketcrash/2882006001/
R-209
04-04-2020, 08:51 AM
^That would be annoying imo
When I was talking to the manager, it was like they were living in an alternate universe where the pandemic isn't happening.
"Can you believe this guy? He wants you to wear a mask and use hand sanitizer! He even says you should wipe down the machine after using it!*"
"He's nuts! I've been in ten homes today and haven't done any of that."
*basic gym etiquette anytime
eagle2
04-04-2020, 12:10 PM
Look, the simple fact is that nobody knew what was coming. Dumb things were said and done by politicians on both sides of the aisle, as evidenced by the numerous examples outlined in this thread. Early on I think our leaders drew a false sense of comfort from the case reporting coming out of China and only now are we starting to learn the extent to which the Chinese fed the world complete crap regarding its full impact on them.
It wasn't until this thing hit Italy and then NYC in numbers that we started to realize the full scope and I can't criticize leaders on either aisle for initially underestimating the scope. Nor for that matter will I criticize the leaders from either side for what they have done to address this. All involved have taken unprecedentedly massive steps to fight this, including the use of all of their powers in dedicating massive human and economic resources to the fight. Hindsight is 20/20 and I'm not going to give Cuomo crap for not spending money on ventilators that nobody could have foreseen needing in such numbers any more than I'm going to give Trump crap for trying to preserve a semblance of economic normalcy until he had no choice but to do otherwise.
As far as I can tell, everyone involved was trying to do their respective jobs as best they could with incomplete information and lots of competing priorities. To me what is important is that when it was finally clear that the shit was hitting the fan, all parties involved stepped up in their various roles.
Here's what CT Senator Chris Murphy said on Feb. 5:
https://twitter.com/chrismurphyct/status/1225073987639705600?lang=en
Just left the Administration briefing on Coronavirus. Bottom line: they aren't taking this seriously enough.
Notably, no request for ANY emergency funding, which is a big mistake. Local health systems need supplies, training, screening staff etc. And they need it now.
He didn't have access to any information that the president didn't.
There are other countries whose leaders knew to take this very seriously from day one. South Korea's did. So did Taiwan's.
baer45
04-04-2020, 12:45 PM
Look, the simple fact is that nobody knew what was coming. Dumb things were said and done by politicians on both sides of the aisle, as evidenced by the numerous examples outlined in this thread. Early on I think our leaders drew a false sense of comfort from the case reporting coming out of China and only now are we starting to learn the extent to which the Chinese fed the world complete crap regarding its full impact on them.
It wasn't until this thing hit Italy and then NYC in numbers that we started to realize the full scope and I can't criticize leaders on either aisle for initially underestimating the scope. Nor for that matter will I criticize the leaders from either side for what they have done to address this. All involved have taken unprecedentedly massive steps to fight this, including the use of all of their powers in dedicating massive human and economic resources to the fight. Hindsight is 20/20 and I'm not going to give Cuomo crap for not spending money on ventilators that nobody could have foreseen needing in such numbers any more than I'm going to give Trump crap for trying to preserve a semblance of economic normalcy until he had no choice but to do otherwise.
As far as I can tell, everyone involved was trying to do their respective jobs as best they could with incomplete information and lots of competing priorities. To me what is important is that when it was finally clear that the shit was hitting the fan, all parties involved stepped up in their various roles.
1. Both sides have said dumb things.
I don't care what others said. I only care what Trump said, or this administration said. Just like how I criticized Obama in his term. In terms of media, I would like to know how many dumb things that CNN or any other mainstream media had said to downplay this pandemic compare to Foxnews. What's the damage?
2. No one knew this was coming, China gave us a false report.
Who would believe China for reporting the actual number? Make no mistake, China is definitely the bad guy here. But who would be dumb enough to believe the Communist Party of China? I guess you have an answer for that. I can tell you, the rest of the world didn't. Back in 2003, China did exactly the same thing for the SARS outbreak. Lessons learned. China Locked down 11 million people in Wuhan on 23th Jan. The whole world was watching carefully, acting accordingly, but did we?
Plus, South Korean had the outbreak on 21st Feb, and Japan had the outbreak on 19th Feb, all very severe cases, way before Italy and the rest of Europe had the problem(mid-March). Did this administration see what happened in South Korea and Japan? Did they take pandemic expert's advice? What dumb things did they say or do before 15th March?
3. They are doing their best now.
Maybe now. That doesn't mean we should forget the slow response, downplaying the pandemic, trying to politicize the situation, poorly prepared...a fuck up is a fuck up. Who's fault was that? Could we do better than what this administration did? Is it odd for me to complain that we DID NOT have the right guy to lead the nation for this crisis?
4. Trump was trying to preserve a semblance of economic normalcy.
Let's just say he has some particular interests in the high numbers in stock market. But did his effort ever fool Wallstreet and investors? How much confidence did they have in Trump or this administration for dealing with this crisis?
https://i.postimg.cc/fbv3RYBX/Firefox-Screenshot-2020-04-04-T19-26-29-723-Z.png
5. Hindsight is 20/20.
Yes. Was it hindsight though? Didn't pandemic experts inform Trump and this administration in January and February?
Now as a nation, we stick together and handle this pandemic crisis, forthcoming economic recession. I hope everyone survives this.
rickdugan
04-04-2020, 01:25 PM
It wasn't until this thing hit Italy and then NYC in numbers that we started to realize the full scope and I can't criticize leaders on either aisle for initially underestimating the scope. Nor for that matter will I criticize the leaders from either side for what they have done to address this. All involved have taken unprecedentedly massive steps to fight this, including the use of all of their powers in dedicating massive human and economic resources to the fight. Hindsight is 20/20 and I'm not going to give Cuomo crap for not spending money on ventilators that nobody could have foreseen needing in such numbers any more than I'm going to give Trump crap for trying to preserve a semblance of economic normalcy until he had no choice but to do otherwise.
I posted this second piece for everyone to re-read since it was an important part of my post. What was the President supposed to do, shut down the economy without absolute proof of the necessity of doing so? Imagine if he had done that and this thing petered out like it purportedly did in China. The same folks who are now loudly complaining about his purportedly slow response would be complaining about that instead. Hindsight is 20/20 and he made decisions with imperfect information and competing priorities, since, contrary to the opinions of some, public safety at all costs is not his only mandate.
eagle2
04-04-2020, 01:46 PM
It didn't peter out in China. China's government took drastic action to stop the spread of the virus. Here's a video showing how China's government responded.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQTE10dqQU8
If there is a virus that has the potential to kill hundreds of thousands of people, then yes, government should shut down the economy. The economy will recover. You can't bring dead people back to life.
eagle2
04-04-2020, 01:48 PM
This is not the appropriate response:
https://images.dailykos.com/images/786558/large/91421783_10157445020244372_7168225280866123776_n.j pg
baer45
04-04-2020, 02:09 PM
I posted this second piece for everyone to re-read since it was an important part of my post. What was the President supposed to do, shut down the economy without absolute proof of the necessity of doing so? Imagine if he had done that and this thing petered out like it purportedly did in China. The same folks who are now loudly complaining about his purportedly slow response would be complaining about that instead. Hindsight is 20/20 and he made decisions with imperfect information and competing priorities, since, contrary to the opinions of some, public safety at all costs is not his only mandate.
Yes. We should have started the social distancing and locked down the source ASAP. We had enough proof to do so. South Korea, Japan all did that in Late Feb.
If it petered out, unlikely it could, folks who complained about slow response would be dead silence. Folks who said there was no reason to take it seriously would be the one who's loudly complaining. That's the correct logic.
Once again, information was not perfect. But it was also good enough to make the correct decision, or get the preparation going. Maybe some people will go against the best judgment and act recklessly. But our government shouldn't have been like that.
Competing priorities... If you don't treat American lives as the highest priority, you are not the one for the job.
eagle2
04-04-2020, 07:45 PM
Not only did the president wait too long too take action, he hindered in efforts for widespread testing because he wanted to keep the numbers low.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/coronavirus-testing-trump-election-campaign-dan-diamond-alex-azar-a9399661.html
The number of people dying each day is now up to 1,500 and Trump still hasn't called for a nation-wide lockdown. As of yesterday, there were still 12 states that aren't in lockdown.
OmegaWest
04-04-2020, 08:38 PM
Not only did the president wait too long too take action, he hindered in efforts for widespread testing because he wanted to keep the numbers low.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/coronavirus-testing-trump-election-campaign-dan-diamond-alex-azar-a9399661.html
The number of people dying each day is now up to 1,500 and Trump still hasn't called for a nation-wide lockdown. As of yesterday, there were still 12 states that aren't in lockdown.
your numbers are way off, we in the US have 8452 deaths total as of an hour ago out of 311,357 cases total. Not 1500 a day that isnt even the global death toll which is 64,727 total worldwide.
Trumps job is to look after the entire country and not yell fire in the crowed room like the media did that caused all the panic hoarding. Want to know what he was busy with during January and February, I guess you forgot the bullshit Impeachment and the constant crap still flying from the Democrats who just cant do their own job during this crisis.
Noone knows what a president goes through not even in the social media era of today. We see maybe 10% of what actually goes on and his briefings consist of more that what South Korea did with their small population hosing everyone down with whatever cleaner.
Whats worse is the same thing that is happening in washington is happening on this thread as well, lets take pot shots at the guy trying to attend to alot more than we have to and not to mention doing it for free.
Sure we all want this over, but being negative and posting from media sources who have made it their job to throw mud on everything Trump has done, yes the Washington Post and the NYTimes are the ringleaders of it, so all they post and write should be taken with a grain of salt.
Of all people, the ones in this industry know better than to listen to only one side of a story, because their are at least three sides sometimes more, and we all know it.
this website has current unbiased results and daily numbers save for China because they will never admit they took out over 22 million people with their way of living.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
everyone stay safe and prayers for everyones families even the furry ones
eagle2
04-04-2020, 09:46 PM
your numbers are way off, we in the US have 8452 deaths total as of an hour ago out of 311,357 cases total. Not 1500 a day that isnt even the global death toll which is 64,727 total worldwide.
The following site gives regular updates on total deaths and total deaths of the current day:
https://coronavirus.1point3acres.com/
As of 21:36 EDT, there were 1,478 deaths in the US today (04/04/2020). Also, if you had been following the site you linked to, you would have seen that the daily death rate in the US has exceeded 1,000 for at least a few days now.
Trumps job is to look after the entire country and not yell fire in the crowed room like the media did that caused all the panic hoarding. Want to know what he was busy with during January and February, I guess you forgot the bullshit Impeachment and the constant crap still flying from the Democrats who just cant do their own job during this crisis.
If there is a fire in a crowded room, then you should take immediate action to save as many people in the room as you can. The Senate trial ended on Feb. 5, so even if Trump was devoting 100% of his time to the Senate trial, which he wasn't, he had plenty of time to act. In addition, there was no reason for Trump to spend a lot of time dealing with impeachment. He didn't testify, and it was a foregone conclusion that the Senate wasn't going to remove him from office. Clinton continued to carry out his responsibilities while he was being impeached, and so did Nixon. Nixon had to deal with a major war in the Middle East between one of our allies and allies of the Soviet Union, in which he had to organize a massive transport of military supplies to our ally, as well as having to deal with winding down the war in Vietnam.
Noone knows what a president goes through not even in the social media era of today. We see maybe 10% of what actually goes on and his briefings consist of more that what South Korea did with their small population hosing everyone down with whatever cleaner.
There are more than 51 million people living in South Korea, and S. Korea is much more densely populated than the US, which makes it much easier to spread the virus there.
I don't know everything Trump did, but I do know what he hasn't done. He didn't call for a national lockdown, and still hasn't, as of today. He didn't use the Defense Production Act to order industry to ramp up production of necessary medical equipment such as ventilators and PPE for medical staff. He didn't order an increase in testing for the virus. All of these actions could have greatly reduced the number of deaths as well as the number of people getting the virus. I also know he was briefed back in January, of how serious this pandemic could be.
Whats worse is the same thing that is happening in washington is happening on this thread as well, lets take pot shots at the guy trying to attend to alot more than we have to and not to mention doing it for free.
He's not doing it for free and nobody forced him to take this job. I wish he didn't. He's been receiving millions of dollars, just to pay for his golf trips alone. I admit to not liking Trump, but I sincerely do wish I could be praising him right now for taking prompt, forceful action in dealing with this pandemic, and keeping the death count and number of cases low, instead of condemning him for doing practically nothing. It's heartbreaking seeing so many people dying every day as well as reading stories about doctors and nurses being overwhelmed and not having protective equipment. His poor response has also endangered my life and the lives of all of the members of this forum who are living in the US. Just going to the grocery store to buy food has become a very scary event for me.
Sure we all want this over, but being negative and posting from media sources who have made it their job to throw mud on everything Trump has done, yes the Washington Post and the NYTimes are the ringleaders of it, so all they post and write should be taken with a grain of salt.
Of all people, the ones in this industry know better than to listen to only one side of a story, because their are at least three sides sometimes more, and we all know it.
But there is only one set of facts.
thisunrest
04-05-2020, 06:10 AM
I’m in the USA for situational awareness. I don’t know how long. How long do think the pandemic will last?
I can't imagine life will return to "normal" in under a year.
rickdugan
04-05-2020, 06:53 AM
I've noticed that people who blithely say "the economy will be fine, just shut it down" are usually the ones with a secure paycheck. It's amazing to me how completely ignorant so many people are to the real social costs, in lives and long-term misery, that this complete shutdown will exact. The bill just hasn't come due yet, but it will, over many months and probably even years ahead. Millions of lives will be hurt or ruined; suicide, crime and domestic violence rates will spike; hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of children will be plunged into poverty; many thousands of businesses will disappear never to return; [the list goes on]...
These are the reasons why we don't shut the economy down every year during flu season, including the recent one that killed 50,000 Americans. Saving lives from illness, at all costs, sometimes comes with too high a price.
So yes, the President has competing priorities. The only question that remains now is whether the cure causes more long-term harm than the illness it was designed to stop. We probably won't know the answer to this for some time to come, but we will be enjoying the worst Recession any of us has ever experienced for many months to come once this is all over.
baer45
04-05-2020, 08:40 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/the-us-was-beset-by-denial-and-dysfunction-as-the-coronavirus-raged/ar-BB12akzb
(Just read this article, we will understand what happened in the past 70 days)
...............
The CDC learned of a cluster of cases in China on Dec. 31 and began developing reports for HHS on Jan. 1. But the most unambiguous warning that U.S. officials received about the coronavirus came Jan. 3, when Robert Redfield, the CDC director, received a call from a counterpart in China. The official told Redfield that a mysterious respiratory illness was spreading in Wuhan, a congested commercial city of 11 million people in the communist country’s interior.
Redfield quickly relayed the disturbing news to Alex Azar, the secretary of HHS, the agency that oversees the CDC and other public health entities. Azar, in turn, ensured that the White House was notified, instructing his chief of staff to share the Chinese report with the National Security Council.
From that moment, the administration and the virus were locked in a race against a ticking clock, a competition for the upper hand between pathogen and prevention that would dictate the scale of the outbreak when it reached American shores, and determine how many would get sick or die.
..............
eagle2
04-05-2020, 09:38 AM
I've noticed that people who blithely say "the economy will be fine, just shut it down" are usually the ones with a secure paycheck. It's amazing to me how completely ignorant so many people are to the real social costs, in lives and long-term misery, that this complete shutdown will exact. The bill just hasn't come due yet, but it will, over many months and probably even years ahead. Millions of lives will be hurt or ruined; suicide, crime and domestic violence rates will spike; hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of children will be plunged into poverty; many thousands of businesses will disappear never to return; [the list goes on]...
These are the reasons why we don't shut the economy down every year during flu season, including the recent one that killed 50,000 Americans. Saving lives from illness, at all costs, sometimes comes with too high a price.
So yes, the President has competing priorities. The only question that remains now is whether the cure causes more long-term harm than the illness it was designed to stop. We probably won't know the answer to this for some time to come, but we will be enjoying the worst Recession any of us has ever experienced for many months to come once this is all over.
Corona virus is 20 - 30 times as deadly as the flu. It's estimated that 1.6 million - 2.2 million Americans would die if we did nothing.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/dr-deborah-birx-predicts-200-000-deaths-if-we-do-n1171876
Because we waited so long for states to issue lockdown orders, the lockdown is going to last a lot longer than if Trump had issued one for the entire country, right from the start. Some cities in China are already ending their lockdown.
If we're going to talk about the social costs of the lockdown, crime rates have plummeted and so has pollution, since states started issueing lockdown orders.
miss.a.p1600
04-05-2020, 10:01 AM
I can't imagine life will return to "normal" in under a year.
agreed. I remember the 2008 market crisis and people were STILL talking about the effects many years later
I wonder what things will look like if the numbers of cases continue to increase, will the stay at home mandates be lifted in April 14 or be extended.
Morrigan
04-05-2020, 10:37 AM
my state mandate is until may 4...Washington state was one of the first hit and hit hard. but we also listened and quarantined and distanced and all of that like right away and followed alot of china and south koreas examples and like them our curve is flattened out a ton. dropping in cases..its mostly the south, midwest and north east where nobody is really listening to shit or actively openly still decrying this as a liberal hoax
rickdugan
04-05-2020, 11:42 AM
Corona virus is 20 - 30 times as deadly as the flu. It's estimated that 1.6 million - 2.2 million Americans would die if we did nothing.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/dr-deborah-birx-predicts-200-000-deaths-if-we-do-n1171876
Because we waited so long for states to issue lockdown orders, the lockdown is going to last a lot longer than if Trump had issued one for the entire country, right from the start. Some cities in China are already ending their lockdown.
If we're going to talk about the social costs of the lockdown, crime rates have plummeted and so has pollution, since states started issueing lockdown orders.
Those ridiculous mortality rates were debunked a long time ago. When this is all said and done, the current best estimates are .2-.5%, which is about 2 to 5 times that of the flu.
As far as a nationwide lockdown, Trump couldn't even if he wanted to. He doesn't have the Constitutional authority; that type of action is reserved solely for the states. And we should be thankful for that for any number of reasons.
And the crime rates overall are temporarily down, but that won't last once the lockdowns are lifted and a lot of desperate people are still without means. Economic downturns breed increases in crime and other social issues - every single time - and the worse the downturn, the worse the accompanying problems. Also, certain violent crimes, including domestic violence, are spiking during these unprecedented lockdowns.
It will be interesting what opinions look like since months from now, after the virus has been beaten but we are still stuck in the economic rubble. Real estate values are going to plummet, jobs are not going to magically reappear, lending is going to dry up, etc. 2008-2009 is going to look like a skip through the park compared to what happens to an economy that is completely blown up. Some of our leaders understand this, which is why they were so reluctant to go down this road. The laws of inertia applies to the economy as much as anything else - something at rest tends to stay at rest.
It is very possible that we'll be experiencing conditions not seen since the Great Depression once this is all said an done. Many economists working in our large investment banks seem to think so.
miss.a.p1600
04-05-2020, 01:42 PM
my state mandate is until may 4...Washington state was one of the first hit and hit hard. but we also listened and quarantined and distanced and all of that like right away and followed alot of china and south koreas examples and like them our curve is flattened out a ton. dropping in cases..its mostly the south, midwest and north east where nobody is really listening to shit or actively openly still decrying this as a liberal hoax
ours just extended to May as well....
People were acting too carefree and would go to parks and congregate and then go to packed grocery stores.
They JUST started regulating and now stores to have a max capacity of 50 and or require enough space where people can have 6ft from one another.
The also just closed the parks a couple days ago
eagle2
04-05-2020, 08:58 PM
Those ridiculous mortality rates were debunked a long time ago. When this is all said and done, the current best estimates are .2-.5%, which is about 2 to 5 times that of the flu.
What's your source?
This site has coronavirus statistics by state:
https://coronavirus.1point3acres.com/
Over 1/3 of all confirmed cases in the U.S. are in New York State, and the fatality rate in NY is 3.4%.
As far as a nationwide lockdown, Trump couldn't even if he wanted to. He doesn't have the Constitutional authority; that type of action is reserved solely for the states. And we should be thankful for that for any number of reasons.
I'm not sure what the legality would be for the federal govt ordering a lockdown for the entire country, but even if it's not legal, Trump could publicly call for all governors to lockdown their states. Dr. Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases said he doesn't understand why the entire country doesn't do it.
https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-lockdown-united-states-entire-country-anthony-fauci-cdc-2020-4
On March 16 six San Francisco Bay Area counties announced a “shelter in place” order. These were the first counties in the country to do so. New York waited another week. The below chart shows the differences in number of case between these counties and New York City.
https://images.dailykos.com/images/784727/large/bayarea-ny-totalcases.png
I would bet the people in these counties would agree that the economic costs of the lockdown were worth it.
Eric Stoner
04-06-2020, 08:40 AM
In hindsight, Trump was later and slower in responding than any of us would have liked NOW ! Not necessarily at the time.
Trump has been relying on experts like Fauci and Birx. I think Fauci has given out a LOT of bullshit information. Exhibit A are his public pronouncements going back to January. Trump has been parroting the CDC guidelines which have repeatedly CHANGED. It was only a couple weeks ago that we were told to stay home if we felt sick and wash our hands. We were told facemasks were not necessary and/or not effective. Btw, wearing a scarf or other type cloth covering over your face will do NOTHING to protect you or anyone else. Surgical masks will protect you and others from 95% of viruses.
I know that Trump does not have too many fans on this board. I don't care for him too much myself. But blaming him , with 20-20 hindsight is not very fair or accurate.
Eagle - You continually tout Senator Murphy as being a modern day Cassandra. Let's say you are right. WHERE were his fellow Dems ? His media allies like MSDNC and everyone else who likes to bash Trump ? Where was Biden ? Where was Bernie ? Yes, they are crawling out of the woodwork now but where were they back in January and February. Biden and other Dems bashed Trumps travel bans . Please note the plural. Did you know that before the travel bans there were 1500 flights per week from China to the U.S. At just 200 people per plane that's 300,000 people.
Btw, the economic shutdown has hurt Trump and his family's businesses as bad as anyone else.
Cuomo was told by HIS Health department to stock up on ventilators to deal with anticipated flu epidemics. Back in 2015. He didn't do it.
No facts and figures from China can be believed. They have only reported about 5% of corona deaths. 7 mortuaries in Wuhan are handing families 500 urns PER DAY for at least a week. One mortuary took delivery of 5,000 urns in just two days.
Morrigan
04-06-2020, 08:58 AM
53026
I do like being married to a scientist
Eric Stoner
04-06-2020, 09:07 AM
Taiwan probably is as free and democratic as the U.S., and their government has been a lot more transparent than ours, on the coronavirus.
From:
https://www.wired.com/story/taiwan-is-beating-the-coronavirus-can-the-us-do-the-same/
But Taiwan’s own success at building a functional democracy is probably the most potent rebuke to the Asian values thesis. The democracy activists who risked their lives and careers during the island nation’s martial law era were not renowned for their willingness to accept government orders or preach Confucian social harmony. Stevan Harrell, an anthropologist at the University of Washington who has conducted field research in both China and Taiwan, suggested that some of the current willingness to trust what the government is telling the people is the direct “result of having experienced the transition from an authoritarian government that lied all the time, to a democratic government and robust political dialogue that forced people to be able to evaluate information.”
There was no reason for Trump to rely on governors to do something that he should have done himself.
We have a FEDERAL system. States are sovereign entities. Short of declaring martial law ( anyone in favor of THAT ? ) Trump is forced to work through the Governors of the various states. It is the GOVERNORS who are implementing the CDC guidelines and distributing much of the Federal aid provided so far and which is en route.
Taiwan IS a democracy BUT it is much more unitary than the U.S. i.e. the national government is much more powerful than ours. Together with Singapore and South Korea it ORDERED everyone to wear a mask in public.
I AGREE with you that Trump should have acted sooner and didnot go far enough. I think the primary reason was he listened too much to Fauci who has considerably changed his tune in the last 2 months. Fauci is still expressing skepticism about hydroxychloroquine and other therapies.
Part of the problem with Fauci is that he does not see patients. He does not treat. His career has been spent in labs and various conferences and seminars. And I hope this is not true; but hydroxychloroquine is a cheap generic drug i.e. there is little if any profit in it compared to other drugs and therapies. Some have suggested that as the basis for Fauci's skepticism.
miss.a.p1600
04-06-2020, 09:20 AM
Economic shutdown hurting trump businesses?
I won’t believe that till I see the receipts .....
It sucks to see anyone suffering right now however the top wealthiest people don’t hurt as much economically as the average joe blow. Maybe people employed by his companies but I’m sure he and his immediate family will be well isolated from this. I highly doubt Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Johnson Families, etc are losing any wink of sleep
dpacrkk
04-06-2020, 10:34 AM
Btw, the economic shutdown has hurt Trump and his family's businesses as bad as anyone else.
He's used to it (Trump Steaks, Trump Airlines, Vodka, University, Plaza Casino and Hotel, etc)