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eagle2
05-27-2020, 11:43 AM
Sure you weren't trying to draw the inference Eagle. That's why you then plowed right ahead to claim that we would have had an even greater death rate if we followed the Swedish model. A passive aggressive inference is still an inference, even if you try to disown it as such.

To your other points, there is no way whatsoever to know the veracity of your claims and all your angst ridden hyperbole doesn't make any of that more right Dr. Eagle, nor do your broad sweeping generalities about what you believe "doctors and scientists overwhelming agree" on. But the most angst ridden of those same experts claimed that Florida would have 100,000 deaths because they closed too late and look how that went. And putting aside your dubious claim about the quality of the Swedish healthcare system, there are many other differences between Sweden.

I've never heard anyone say FL would have 100,000 deaths. You probably made that up. By practically every measurement, Sweden is better off than the US, in terms of dealing with COVID-19 sickness. They have a lower poverty rate, more physicians and hospital beds per 1,000 people, a much lower obesity rate, and is less densely populated than most major American cities. If the US followed the same policies as Sweden, you would expect us to have a much higher death rate, not lower.



Florida, with 22 million people, including a large elderly population and plenty of poor people, is a prime example of a more nuanced approach. The state closed later than most states, is opening earlier and, even during the worst of it, imposed a "lockdown" that was far less draconian than most states. How many people died in Florida? Not the 100,000 predicted by many pundits, but less than 2,300.

Florida is much less densely populated than NYC. I don't know of anyone who predicted 100,000 deaths there.



These never-ending lockdowns are what happens when decision making is made by frightened people acting out of panic. I'm sure that all of this is very emotionally satisfying to those who are naturally fearful and seek justification to continue to behave so, but the hard evidence here in the U.S suggests that climate and population density were the two primary determinants of infection spread and that age was the primary factor in mortality. The same evidence also now suggests that we could have prevented tens of thousands of deaths if we had simply locked down the nursing homes sooner, as FL did.

No, the lockdowns are based on sound science, The policies you advocate have already failed. Sweden now has over 4,200 deaths, including 95 this past day, while neighboring Norway has 235, yet you insist we should be following Sweden's model, and not Norway's. That would only result in more deaths than we're having already.

Approximately 1/3 of deaths occurred in nursing homes, which is very high, but even if we exclude all nursing home deaths, the US would have had approximately 70,000 deaths from the virus, which is still extremely high.



But let's say you are right and people will huddle in their homes even if we open up. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't do it. Some business income is better than none and each person should decide when the right time is for him/her.

No, each person should not decide when the right time is for him/her because they're not just harming themselves if they catch the virus, they're endangering the lives of others. Doctors, nurses, and grocery store workers shouldn't have their lives endangered by people who refuse to act responsibly. Too many of them have died already.

Eric Stoner
05-27-2020, 11:48 AM
I’m curious as to going out to eat at restaurants.... what do y’all do to protect yourself?

Do you go to restaurants less crowded? Eat outside? Or y’all still getting it togo?

I got another invite to dine in but I’m honestly questioning it.

Everybody wears a mask unless actually eating or drinking. Lot of spacing. Limits of no more than 4 to a table. Tables at least 6 feet apart.
They are going to have to do something with the bathrooms to limit use to one or two people at a time - no lines for the ladies room.
Eating outside is MUCH less risky. And they will have to do much more sanitizing. Many restaurants in Georgia and Florida are already doing these things.
Vegas just came out with new guidelines for casinos limiting number of people at blackjack and poker tables etc.

Humblestarxo
05-27-2020, 11:52 AM
I’m curious as to going out to eat at restaurants.... what do y’all do to protect yourself?

Do you go to restaurants less crowded? Eat outside? Or y’all still getting it togo?

I got another invite to dine in but I’m honestly questioning it.

i went yesterday to a sit down restaurant and it was so weird. All the workers had masks and they had booths were u couldn’t sit at. Our lil group didn’t wear masks and the menu was limited. There were maybe 6 tables being used. I felt safe eating inside - my kid came with us and he hasn’t been to any stores in the past 2 months. So for me to let my kid come with me was a big deal. But I know the people who I went with have been social distancing, just like we have. I don’t plan on doing this weekly.. I rather do togo if anything but I needed to feel normal. But honestly if there were more people inside I would of not stayed.
What we been doing with my parents is grabbing food Togo and then eating outside 6 ft apart :( busting out the fan for next week cuz it’s gonna be hotttt AF.

Eric Stoner
05-27-2020, 11:53 AM
I've never heard anyone say FL would have 100,000 deaths. You probably made that up. By practically every measurement, Sweden is better off than the US, in terms of being negatively affected by COVID-19. They have a lower poverty rate, more physicians and hospital beds per 1,000 people, a much lower obesity rate, and is less densely populated than major American cities. If the US followed the same policies as Sweden, you would expect us to have a much higher death rate, not lower.


Florida is much less densely populated than NYC. I don't know of anyone who predicted 100,000 deaths there.


No, the lockdowns are based on sound science, The policies you advocate have already failed. Sweden now has over 4,200 deaths, including 95 this passed day, while neighboring Norway has 235, yet you insist we should be following Sweden's model, and not Norway's. That would only result in more deaths than we're having already.

Approximately 1/3 of deaths occurred in nursing homes, which is very high, but even if we exclude all nursing home deaths, the US would have had approximately 70,000 deaths from the virus, which is still extremely high.



No, each person should not decide when the right time is for him/her because they're not just harming themselves if they catch the virus, they're endangering the lives of others. Doctors, nurses, and grocery store workers shouldn't have their lives endangered by people who refuse to act responsibly. Too many of them have died already.

If you want to talk about responsibility and accountability why not start with Cuomo, Murphy , DeBlasio and a host of others ?

If people are wearing a mask and gloves, socially distancing etc., avoiding crowds etc., washing hands and sanitizing then how are they getting infected ? The answer is that for the most part they are not.

miss.a.p1600
05-27-2020, 11:54 AM
There are a lot of rituals and sacraments that cannot be performed over an Internet connection, so this has indeed disrupted religious practices. Baptisms have been postponed; marriages have been rescheduled; confessions cannot occur; the Eucharist (extremely important to Catholics) cannot be received; first communions and confirmations were delayed; the Torah cannot be touched or carried; holy water cannot be obtained; religious education classes were modified and/or cancelled, etc., etc.

So this has indeed been a tremendous hardship upon religious communities and I agree with Eric wholeheartedly on the absurdity of the contradictions.

Liquor and weed stores IMO aren’t essential but they managed to stay open because they don’t draw crowds and the service can be done curbside/contactless.

I hate to sound like I’m bragging but our church here is very innovative and they have adapted very well keeping things going despite the building being closed to public. They are delivering meals to elderly/sick/etc, all classes and service are online for now.

As far as baptisms, marriages, etc. I don’t have much to say on that except to say while I personally could get a religious service i Really good wanted done (in a non conventional way), I could see where more traditional type folks prefer it to be done in the traditional way - in person.

miss.a.p1600
05-27-2020, 12:00 PM
If you want to talk about responsibility and accountability why not start with Cuomo, Murphy , DeBlasio and a host of others ?

If people are wearing a mask and gloves, socially distancing etc., avoiding crowds etc., washing hands and sanitizing then how are they getting infected ? The answer is that for the most part they are not.

I could be wrong but think that’s the point he’s trying to make. Is that there is a subsection of people who don’t like/want to wear masks in public AND ignoring social distancing.

I almost punched two dudes for walking up behind me all in my damn personal space like they lost their everlasting minds. Thankfully I had a mask on.

Also there were tons of crowds all over the country this past weekend on Memorial Day.

eagle2
05-27-2020, 12:03 PM
While it started DURING W.W. I , the Spanish Flu peaked in late 1918 and early 1919 , AFTER the war had ended.

The casualties from the Hong Kong Flu epidemic of 1968-9 totaled over a million people.Sweden has a larger population than Norway and (as you have written ) a state of the art health care system with very extensive and accurate reporting. But the Swedes have acknowledged that their numbers are probably OVER -inclusive. If you die of a heart attack and are Covid positive you are listed as dying from Covid. Same if you had a stroke or a fat embolism and are Covid positive.

How do you explain Florida ? Governor DeSantis took steps to protect the nursing homes ( Unlike Cuomo , Murphy , Pritzker and a number of other Blue State Governors ) and their death rate is relatively low.
Yes, yes, I know that California's death rate is low ( 3,700 ) and they totally shut down. New York has about 23,000 deaths with comparable numbers in N.J. , Illinois, and Pennsylvania. New York has 6% of the U.S. population but almost 25% of total deaths. Even allowing for the imbecilic requirement that Covid positive patients be put into nursing homes which btw , had a LOT of serious problems BEFORE this pandemic.

Sweden has twice as many people as Norway and approximately 18 times as many deaths. COVID-19 can cause heart attacks and strokes, even in young people. COIVID-19 can cause serious harm to people, even in cases where it doesn't kill them. The rapper Scarface caught the virus. He survived, but suffered kidney failure and is on dialysis.

https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/hip-hop/9365996/scarface-coronavirus-kidney-failure-dialysis

eagle2
05-27-2020, 12:10 PM
If you want to talk about responsibility and accountability why not start with Cuomo, Murphy , DeBlasio and a host of others ?


I never said the above people don't bear any responsibility for what happened. NY and NJ should definitely have shut down sooner than they did. What's being discussed here is what we should be doing now, not who is responsible.



If people are wearing a mask and gloves, socially distancing etc., avoiding crowds etc., washing hands and sanitizing then how are they getting infected ? The answer is that for the most part they are not.

I don't have a problem opening businesses that could be operated safely, but for businesses where wearing a mask would not be possible or enforceable, such as bars, dine-in restaurants, or movies, I don't see how these businesses could operate safely.

eagle2
05-27-2020, 12:12 PM
I could be wrong but think that’s the point he’s trying to make. Is that there is a subsection of people who don’t like/want to wear masks in public AND ignoring social distancing.

I almost punched two dudes for walking up behind me all in my damn personal space like they lost their everlasting minds. Thankfully I had a mask on.

Also there were tons of crowds all over the country this past weekend on Memorial Day.

Yes, that's my point.

rickdugan
05-27-2020, 12:15 PM
As far as baptisms, marriages, etc. I don’t have much to say on that except to say while I personally could get a religious service i Really good wanted done (in a non conventional way), I could see where more traditional type folks prefer it to be done in the traditional way - in person.

In some religions, including the Catholic faith, these things must be done in person. This is not a breezy preference issue. So when the churches are closed, these things are simply not done, period.

eagle2
05-27-2020, 12:16 PM
There are a lot of rituals and sacraments that cannot be performed over an Internet connection, so this has indeed disrupted religious practices. Baptisms have been postponed; marriages have been rescheduled; confessions cannot occur; the Eucharist (extremely important to Catholics) cannot be received; first communions and confirmations were delayed; the Torah cannot be touched or carried; holy water cannot be obtained; religious education classes were modified and/or cancelled, etc., etc.

So this has indeed been a tremendous hardship upon religious communities and I agree with Eric wholeheartedly on the absurdity of the contradictions.

No religious ritual is worth dying for. Approximately 90% of Churches shut down. A small percentage, mostly in the Bible belt remained opened. Of those churches that remained open, over 30 pastors have died from the virus. People who go to church aren't just endangering their own lives, they're endangering the lives of others.

eagle2
05-27-2020, 12:18 PM
and the Jewish Religion prohibits the practice of any rituals that endanger lives.

eagle2
05-27-2020, 12:20 PM
I’m curious as to going out to eat at restaurants.... what do y’all do to protect yourself?

Do you go to restaurants less crowded? Eat outside? Or y’all still getting it togo?

I got another invite to dine in but I’m honestly questioning it.

Right now, it's probably best to avoid dining in at restaurants. If you're in a state where restaurants are allowed to open, I suggest waiting at least 6 - 8 weeks and looking at the trends in your state, to see if the number of cases and deaths are increasing or decreasing, and how many there are. Unfortunately, some states are making decisions based on politics rather than safety.

rickdugan
05-27-2020, 12:35 PM
I've never heard anyone say FL would have 100,000 deaths. You probably made that up. By practically every measurement, Sweden is better off than the US, in terms of being negatively affected by COVID-19. They have a lower poverty rate, more physicians and hospital beds per 1,000 people, a much lower obesity rate, and is less densely populated than major American cities. If the US followed the same policies as Sweden, you would expect us to have a much higher death rate, not lower.

Florida is much less densely populated than NYC. I don't know of anyone who predicted 100,000 deaths there.

No, the lockdowns are based on sound science, The policies you advocate have already failed. Sweden now has over 4,200 deaths, including 95 this past day, while neighboring Norway has 235, yet you insist we should be following Sweden's model, and not Norway's. That would only result in more deaths than we're having already.

Approximately 1/3 of deaths occurred in nursing homes, which is very high, but even if we exclude all nursing home deaths, the US would have had approximately 70,000 deaths from the virus, which is still extremely high.

No, each person should not decide when the right time is for him/her because they're not just harming themselves if they catch the virus, they're endangering the lives of others. Doctors, nurses, and grocery store workers shouldn't have their lives endangered by people who refuse to act responsibly. Too many of them have died already.

So more people died from a contagious virus because they weren't forced to lock down. What a stunner. ;)

The problem is your metric of success vs. failure. It only measures one statistic while ignoring everything else. What we should be asking ourselves is: How much poverty and economic carnage did Sweden avoid for years to come and how many lives will that save alone? How many less suicides and ODs will they experience? What is the value of the lost education and growth activities for millions of children who would have never gotten that time back? How many people didn't die because they were able to keep getting cancer screenings, heart checks and other necessary medical support?

I suspect that, when all is tallied up a year or longer from now, people are going to look back and wonder if the cure did more harm than the disease. The Swedes seemed to take that view and thus far they are happy with the results.

And your numbers on nursing home deaths are bad. That percentage would be a lot higher if NY wasn't fudging the numbers by excluding old people transferred from nursing homes to hospitals to die. Google it. While you're at it, Google Florida death estimates April 2020 and you'll find those too, though I'm guessing that some of the more shameful news sources have yanked those stories offline after being embarrassed.

So yes, protect the nursing homes and provide additional resources to high risk groups and let everyone else make their own decisions. We already do it every day in endless other situations where harm to ourselves and potentially others is involved. We can't stay bunkered forever.

rickdugan
05-27-2020, 12:40 PM
No religious ritual is worth dying for. Approximately 90% of Churches shut down. A small percentage, mostly in the Bible belt remained opened. Of those churches that remained open, over 30 pastors have died from the virus. People who go to church aren't just endangering their own lives, they're endangering the lives of others.

You don't have the right to make that decision and neither does the government. More state governments should consider themselves lucky that churches didn't decide to sue them for Constitutional infringements. Florida didn't even try to suppress churches because DeSantis recognized his Constitutional limits, though most in FL chose to close anyway. With respect to those small churches in the bible belt, everyone who took those risks were grown adults who knew the risks but went anyway.

miss.a.p1600
05-27-2020, 12:55 PM
In some religions, including the Catholic faith, these things must be done in person. This is not a breezy preference issue. So when the churches are closed, these things are simply not done, period.

I used to practice Catholicism as a child because my family was raised catholic

I enjoyed it but......

And one of the grossest things they did was communion where everyone would go up and drink out the same cup (insert gag me emoji). Idk if they still do that but I cringe at the germ levels.

Anyhow now I’m curious about this topic so ask my friends who practice Catholicism. I just wonder if some things are being done where the church leaders could safely go to peoples homes/backyards vs having the people pack into a crowded building.

My point is people are getting creative about safely doing important events in person.

I’ve seen one school doing a drive through graduation when other schools cancelled graduation
I’ve seen judges pull out folding tables in court parking lots to keep court proceedings going
Etc.

eagle2
05-27-2020, 01:57 PM
You don't have the right to make that decision and neither does the government. More state governments should consider themselves lucky that churches didn't decide to sue them for Constitutional infringements. Florida didn't even try to suppress churches because DeSantis recognized his Constitutional limits, though most in FL chose to close anyway. With respect to those small churches in the bible belt, everyone who took those risks were grown adults who knew the risks but went anyway.

The Supreme Court has ruled religious beliefs or rituals are not exempt from the law. Congress then passed a law that they are exempt, except in cases where they're harmful. There's no question that holding in-person religious services during an epidemic is harmful.

miss.a.p1600
05-28-2020, 07:19 PM
Be careful out here.

Sadly he’s not the only pastor that has contracted coronavirus but unfortunately he succumbed to the virus


https://youtu.be/VWcajDiGAq0

eagle2
05-28-2020, 10:27 PM
Very sad. Over 30 pastors in the Bible belt have died from coronavirus.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2020/04/report-bible-belt-christians-are-dying-after-ignoring-social-distancing-guidelines/

eagle2
05-28-2020, 10:31 PM
How do you explain Florida ? Governor DeSantis took steps to protect the nursing homes ( Unlike Cuomo , Murphy , Pritzker and a number of other Blue State Governors ) and their death rate is relatively low.


Florida has been under-reporting COVID-19 deaths.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/5/28/1948035/-More-evidence-emerges-that-DeSantis-has-been-deliberately-under-reporting-COVID-19-deaths-in-Florida

rickdugan
05-29-2020, 06:29 AM
Florida has been under-reporting COVID-19 deaths.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/5/28/1948035/-More-evidence-emerges-that-DeSantis-has-been-deliberately-under-reporting-COVID-19-deaths-in-Florida

Oh my goodness NO! Why aren't CNN, CNBC and the other marginally more reputable national media outlets all over this??? This conspiracy has to be exposed immediately.

Oh wait, that's because these conspiracy theories have been largely debunked. Local network news outlets have actually done a reconciliation between the 25 local ME offices' records and the statewide numbers and only found a marginal difference in reported cases. It also came out that the fired purported "data scientist" was a data input analyst with degrees in Journalism and Communications and had some mental issues that previously put her in criminal proceedings.

Eagle, you really need to find better sources than Kronos and Puffpost, lol. <3.3 GPA journalism majors from C schools are not usually reliable sources of data analysis. Just sayin'. ;)

moneybags
05-29-2020, 06:33 AM
Be careful out here.

Sadly he’s not the only pastor that has contracted coronavirus but unfortunately he succumbed to the virus


https://youtu.be/VWcajDiGAq0

I said I wished people who were blasting social distancing would get sick, but no it’s just sad they were brainwashed and it cost them their lives.

A friend of a friend was diagnosed with Covid-19. My friend tried to mom and told her wear a mask, but no one she was close to was taking seriously so she thought it was like a regular cold. She’s only a young lady, she didn’t really know better to question authority. She’s been in and out of the hospital with Covid and she’s only 24.

Wear your mask ladies and don’t let anyone brainwash you.

We really have to think critically and trust ourselves now more than ever.

Eric Stoner
05-29-2020, 07:09 AM
Right now, it's probably best to avoid dining in at restaurants. If you're in a state where restaurants are allowed to open, I suggest waiting at least 6 - 8 weeks and looking at the trends in your state, to see if the number of cases and deaths are increasing or decreasing, and how many there are. Unfortunately, some states are making decisions based on politics rather than safety.

6 to 8 WEEKS ???? On top of what they have already experienced ? Are you serious ? Just how much longer do you think they can hang on ? They were dealing with VERY tight profit margins BEFORE Covid.

Afaic it is ALL politics. States that have reopened are NOT experiencing the dramatic rise in cases that was predicted by the bureaucrats and technocrats.
If you are afraid to go to a bar or a restaurant then stay home. What about people willing to take the very small risk. And if it is outdoors it is almost zero.

Eric Stoner
05-29-2020, 07:12 AM
You don't have the right to make that decision and neither does the government. More state governments should consider themselves lucky that churches didn't decide to sue them for Constitutional infringements. Florida didn't even try to suppress churches because DeSantis recognized his Constitutional limits, though most in FL chose to close anyway. With respect to those small churches in the bible belt, everyone who took those risks were grown adults who knew the risks but went anyway.

There is a VERY strong First Amendment argument for churches to reopen. Most have closed voluntarily and most that have reopened have done so with distancing and other adjustments to minimize the risks of infection.

Eric Stoner
05-29-2020, 07:27 AM
The Supreme Court has ruled religious beliefs or rituals are not exempt from the law. Congress then passed a law that they are exempt, except in cases where they're harmful. There's no question that holding in-person religious services during an epidemic is harmful.

Oh yes there is. Services without adjustments and elementary are potentially risky. Those with parishioners wearing masks and gloves and at Communion taking the host from the priest's gloved hands into their gloved hands has ZERO risk.

I am sorry but Covid is NOT cholera , typhoid , a norovirus or the flu. Yes it is highly contagious and potentially deadly IF you are old , already sick or have a weakened immune system. There are tests and effective treatments. Btw, I have spoken to a lot of treating doctors over the last two months. They ALL prescribe hydroxychloroquine , zinc and azithromycin to Covid patients with mild to moderate cases. They all say the regimen is effective and safe. The misinformation floating around thanks to doctors who do not treat and their media handmaidens has gotten out of control . ALL of the studies saying different are DEEPLY flawed.

The chances of catching Covid OUTDOORS are almost zero. Wearing a mask except when actually eating and drinking while spacing limits the risk to almost zero.Yet too much of the country is still shut down. For how much longer ? At what cost ? We are already looking at permanent damage that will take years to repair and undo.

Parts of NYC have already met all seven of Cuomo's metrics for reopening ( Staten Island ; parts of Manhattan , Brooklyn and Queens but sadly not the Bronx ).Cuomo says it is all or none. WHY ? Neither he nor the Village Idiot Mayor have ever worked a day in the private sector. They obviously think that Federal helicopters will be flying over NYC raining money. And most of the rest of the country justifiably asks : We should pay for that , why ?

Eric Stoner
05-29-2020, 07:33 AM
The Supreme Court has ruled religious beliefs or rituals are not exempt from the law. Congress then passed a law that they are exempt, except in cases where they're harmful. There's no question that holding in-person religious services during an epidemic is harmful.

You may want to re-read those cases. First of all , state vs. religion cases are a confused quagmire of inconsistent jurisprudence. However the Supreme Court has made it clear that ANY state interference with religious activity of any kind is subject to strict scrutiny. The state must show much more than just a rational basis.Their reasons must be compelling AND they must show that there are no alternatives. Most , maybe not all , but most state regulation of church services fails the test.

eagle2
05-29-2020, 09:45 AM
Oh my goodness NO! Why aren't CNN, CNBC and the other marginally more reputable national media outlets all over this??? This conspiracy has to be exposed immediately.

Oh wait, that's because these conspiracy theories have been largely debunked. Local network news outlets have actually done a reconciliation between the 25 local ME offices' records and the statewide numbers and only found a marginal difference in reported cases. It also came out that the fired purported "data scientist" was a data input analyst with degrees in Journalism and Communications and had some mental issues that previously put her in criminal proceedings.

Eagle, you really need to find better sources than Kronos and Puffpost, lol. <3.3 GPA journalism majors from C schools are not usually reliable sources of data analysis. Just sayin'. ;)

https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/04/29/florida-medical-examiners-were-releasing-coronavirus-death-data-the-state-made-them-stop/

https://www.wftv.com/news/local/department-health-underreporting-covid-19-deaths-orange-osceola-counties/EXM4XIHMCJDABBPBJD3JIVYL4U/


https://www.sun-sentinel.com/coronavirus/fl-ne-coronavirus-florida-pneumonia-flu-deaths-spike-20200417-lkel6rlik5blhd5zdktkrxhzze-story.html

eagle2
05-29-2020, 09:52 AM
You may want to re-read those cases. First of all , state vs. religion cases are a confused quagmire of inconsistent jurisprudence. However the Supreme Court has made it clear that ANY state interference with religious activity of any kind is subject to strict scrutiny. The state must show much more than just a rational basis.Their reasons must be compelling AND they must show that there are no alternatives. Most , maybe not all , but most state regulation of church services fails the test.

When American Indians were arrested for smoking an illegal substance during a religious ceremony, the Supreme Court upheld the arrest. If states can legally ban certain substances from being smoked in religious ceremonies, they can certainly prohibit religious services when there is likelihood that a deadly virus will be transmitted at those services. As I said before, over 30 pastors in the Bible belt, who held in-person services, have died from the virus. Why would you want more of this?

eagle2
05-29-2020, 10:21 AM
Oh yes there is. Services without adjustments and elementary are potentially risky. Those with parishioners wearing masks and gloves and at Communion taking the host from the priest's gloved hands into their gloved hands has ZERO risk.

You don't know that. Gloves do nothing to prevent the spread of the virus. The virus can just as easily spread from a gloved hand as an uncovered hand. You can't take communion wearing a mask.



I am sorry but Covid is NOT cholera , typhoid , a norovirus or the flu. Yes it is highly contagious and potentially deadly IF you are old , already sick or have a weakened immune system. There are tests and effective treatments. Btw, I have spoken to a lot of treating doctors over the last two months. They ALL prescribe hydroxychloroquine , zinc and azithromycin to Covid patients with mild to moderate cases. They all say the regimen is effective and safe. The misinformation floating around thanks to doctors who do not treat and their media handmaidens has gotten out of control . ALL of the studies saying different are DEEPLY flawed.

COVID-19 is far more contagious than cholera. Cholera is transmitted through human waste. COVID-19 is transmitted through breathing or talking. There are no treatments that are 100% effective. If there were, there wouldn't be thousands of people dying every day.
Controlled tests have shown hydroxychloroquine is not only not effective, but can be deadly. What is your evidence that these studies are flawed?



The chances of catching Covid OUTDOORS are almost zero. Wearing a mask except when actually eating and drinking while spacing limits the risk to almost zero.Yet too much of the country is still shut down. For how much longer ? At what cost ? We are already looking at permanent damage that will take years to repair and undo.

No it isn't. The pandemic in Italy was traced back to an outdoor football (soccer) match. When Florida opened beaches for spring break, some of those students that went to the beaches, later tested positive. Businesses that can operate safely should be allowed to open. Businesses that can't, should not. Science should be the determining factor. Not politics. Wisconsin reopened two weeks ago and is now reporting its highest daily increase in COVID-19 Cases.

https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/wisconsin-reports-its-highest-daily-increase-covid-19-cases

I don't think you or Rick understand how deadly or contagious this disease is. We've already experienced over 100,000 deaths over a 2 1/2 month period.



Parts of NYC have already met all seven of Cuomo's metrics for reopening ( Staten Island ; parts of Manhattan , Brooklyn and Queens but sadly not the Bronx ).Cuomo says it is all or none. WHY ? Neither he nor the Village Idiot Mayor have ever worked a day in the private sector. They obviously think that Federal helicopters will be flying over NYC raining money. And most of the rest of the country justifiably asks : We should pay for that , why ?

People from the Bronx could easily travel to Brooklyn or Queens.

Eric Stoner
05-29-2020, 11:03 AM
You don't know that. Gloves do nothing to prevent the spread of the virus. The virus can just as easily spread from a gloved hand as an uncovered hand. You can't take communion wearing a mask.


COVID-19 is far more contagious than cholera. Cholera is transmitted through human waste. COVID-19 is transmitted through breathing or talking. There are no treatments that are 100% effective. If there were, there wouldn't be thousands of people dying every day.
Controlled tests have shown hydroxychloroquine is not only not effective, but can be deadly. What is your evidence that these studies are flawed?


No it isn't. The pandemic in Italy was traced back to an outdoor football (soccer) match. When Florida opened beaches for spring break, some of those students that went to the beaches, later tested positive. Businesses that can operate safely should be allowed to open. Businesses that can't, should not. Science should be the determining factor. Not politics. Wisconsin reopened two weeks ago and is now reporting its highest daily increase in COVID-19 Cases.

https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/wisconsin-reports-its-highest-daily-increase-covid-19-cases

I don't think you or Rick understand how deadly or contagious this disease is. We've already experienced over 100,000 deaths over a 2 1/2 month period.



People from the Bronx could easily travel to Brooklyn or Queens.

Then why are so many people wearing gloves ? Especially every health professional ?

Please re-read what I posted. Then look up the literature. When hydroxychloroquine is given to patients with mild to moderate symptoms it works. As much as 90% of the time. With zero to no side effects. If you LISTEN to doctors who actually treat covid patients they will tell you much better than I. They ALL prescribe it. The studies saying different like the V.A. study were skewed to have a much older than average patient group. And it included a LOT of patients with PRE-EXISTING cardiac and/or pulmonary issues not to mention circulatory and immune issues. In short the patients studied were VERY unhealthy to begin with.
There is a laundry list of drugs in common usage that were never subjected to double blind testing that are used safely and effectively today such as penicillin, sulfa drugs and the polio vaccines.

If you observe sensible spacing it is very, very hard to be infected with anything ( including covid ) outdoors. Italy got infected by an influx of covid positive people from CHINA !

I am not afraid of Covid. Neither is Bill Maher or Michael Moore.

One of the problems with assessing where we are and then deciding where and how we ought to go ( and WHEN ) is the stats have been put into a figurative blender and then poured out. We have stats for positive viral tests ; for anti-body tests BUT at least 65% of those people are NOT sick. They have no symptoms.And NEVER did.
Having a positive test AND actually being treated for Covid are two different things. So is testing positive and being told to self-quarantine for ( now ) 10 days. It was 14 days but now the consensus is 10 days WITHOUT symptoms. The death numbers ; the ICU numbers ;the hospital admission numbers ( except for Alabama ) have all been going DOWN. The shutdown was sold by the CDC ; by Trump ; by our governors as a necessary evil to keep our hospitals from being overrun and overwhelmed with Covid patients. Except for Montgomery, Alabama that is not happening anywhere in the U.S. NYC came close but the situation now is like day and night. The Javits Center is closed and the Comfort has sailed away. Testing is way up. Especially antibody testing. All that tells you is whether or not someone was exposed to Covid. In dense urban areas like NYC it is possible that half of the total population was exposed. Afaic that is meaningless. What matters is whether or not you have active virus ; whether or not you are infectious.

If you control for old age, pre-existing conditions and immune suppression the death rate from Covid is LOWER than that of the flu . California and Florida were very pro-active in protecting the elderly and locking down nursing homes and adult care facilities. Cali also used a very strict and comprehensive lockdown , Florida did not. Their covid numbers are comparable. Whether you look at overall death rate ; hospital admissions ; ICU stays ; any metric you like; their experiences have been comparable.

People from the Bronx can travel. They can also go Upstate and out to Long Island ; both of which are opening up so your point is what ? We should quarantine the entire Bronx ? For how long ? Will that include the Yankees ?

eagle2
05-29-2020, 11:04 AM
One farm in Tennessee distributed Covid-19 tests to all of its workers after an employee came down with the virus. It turned out that every single one of its roughly 200 employees had been infected.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-29/every-single-worker-has-covid-at-one-u-s-farm-on-eve-of-harvest

Eric Stoner
05-29-2020, 11:13 AM
When American Indians were arrested for smoking an illegal substance during a religious ceremony, the Supreme Court upheld the arrest. If states can legally ban certain substances from being smoked in religious ceremonies, they can certainly prohibit religious services when there is likelihood that a deadly virus will be transmitted at those services. As I said before, over 30 pastors in the Bible belt, who held in-person services, have died from the viurs. Why would you want more of this?

Sadly, you are right that the Supreme Court upheld state and Federal drug laws interfering with Native American use of peyote in their religious ceremonies. Ignoring how during Prohibition sacramental wine was permitted. So what ?

I am NOT advocating for carte blanche. I AM saying that religious ceremonies can occur with REASONABLE limitations and protective measures. It was not too long ago when police in Kentucky tried to break up outdoor , drive in services. And then they were writing down license plates. Do you support banning drive in worship ? What about Bible study in private homes ? Prayer circles on a beach or in a park ? How far do you want to go in your quest to suppress religious expression ? What about all the corollary benefits from religion ? The lower drug and alcohol use ? Less domestic violence ? Greater self-esteem and peace of mind ? Gee ! the same sort of corollary benefits we get from W O R K ! Wow ! Who'd a thunk it ?

Eric Stoner
05-29-2020, 11:16 AM
One farm in Tennessee distributed Covid-19 tests to all of its workers after an employee came down with the virus. It turned out that every single one of its roughly 200 employees had been infected.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-29/every-single-worker-has-covid-at-one-u-s-farm-on-eve-of-harvest

No they were EXPOSED . How many are sick ? Sick with covid is NOT the same as exposed. How many have ACTIVE virus ? This is what I am talking about with blending and interchanging stats.

eagle2
05-29-2020, 11:23 AM
No they were EXPOSED . How many are sick ? Sick with covid is NOT the same as exposed. How many have ACTIVE virus ? This is what I am talking about with blending and interchanging stats.

The article specifically states they were infected.

eagle2
05-29-2020, 11:28 AM
Sadly, you are right that the Supreme Court upheld state and Federal drug laws interfering with Native American use of peyote in their religious ceremonies. Ignoring how during Prohibition sacramental wine was permitted. So what ?

I am NOT advocating for carte blanche. I AM saying that religious ceremonies can occur with REASONABLE limitations and protective measures. It was not too long ago when police in Kentucky tried to break up outdoor , drive in services. And then they were writing down license plates. Do you support banning drive in worship ? What about Bible study in private homes ? Prayer circles on a beach or in a park ? How far do you want to go in your quest to suppress religious expression ? What about all the corollary benefits from religion ? The lower drug and alcohol use ? Less domestic violence ? Greater self-esteem and peace of mind ? Gee ! the same sort of corollary benefits we get from W O R K ! Wow ! Who'd a thunk it ?

I don't have a problem with people staying in their cars. Approximately 90% of churches have stopped having in-person services. If they're able to do without it, I don't see why the rest aren't. I know people whose churches have online services and I know people who had their Passover Seder online. It's 2020. There are many alternatives to doing things in person.

Eric Stoner
05-29-2020, 11:42 AM
Please READ your own link. They were infected i.e. EXPOSED to the virus. As in every other meat plant where at least one worker came down with SYMPTOMS. No surprise given the working conditions , lousy sanitation and lack of protective equipment. It does NOT say that they are all sick or that they all came down with symptoms. In fact it says nothing of the sort. It does NOT say how many have active virus i.e. are INFECTIOUS i.e. can expose someone else and make them sick.

I am not trying to minimize this and other legitimate concerns. Afaic the whole plant should be shut down , deep cleaned and sanitized. All the workers ought to self-quarantine for at least 10 days BUT assuming that they live like many illegals and/or low income workers that will be difficult to impossible.

Even if I had my druthers and most of the country reopened tomorrow with sensible measures taken and within sensible limitations there will be further outbreaks and hot spots. Which we have dealt with and can continue to do so. I am arguing for balance between self-protection and vital economic activity necessary to begin to repair the severe economic damage this country has suffered. One quarter of our workers are unemployed. That is unsustainable.

Eric Stoner
05-29-2020, 11:47 AM
I don't have a problem with people staying in their cars. Approximately 90% of churches have stopped having in-person services. If they're able to do without it, I don't see why the rest aren't. I know people whose churches have online services and I know people who had their Passover Seder online. It's 2020. There are many alternatives to doing things in person.

I am very sorry but WHO ARE YOU to dictate how people get to worship ? More to the point , where do Governors get authority to make those decisions ? The language of the First Amendment is very clear. There is no exception for war , fire, flood or pandemic.

While you might be somewhat tolerant too many governors think they do have the right to stop ALL religious services and activity. Including drive in and/or drive by worship.

eagle2
05-29-2020, 11:50 AM
"Infected" means they have the virus and can infect others.

https://www.google.com/search?q=infected+definition&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS873US873&oq=infected+def


(of a person, organism, etc.) affected with a disease-causing organism.


All 200 workers were tested and all 200 were infected. Not everyone who's been infected has symptoms, which is why so many precautions are necessary. There's no way to know who has the virus.

Eric Stoner
05-29-2020, 12:09 PM
Your link does NOT say that. But let's assume that it does. If true , they should all be quarantined. However given how the terminology has been mixed and matched so far , I have my doubts that all 200 are infectious. Possible but more likely they were all exposed. Infected and infectious are two different things. Your link does NOT say if they received anti-body testing or active viral testing.

eagle2
05-29-2020, 12:20 PM
I am very sorry but WHO ARE YOU to dictate how people get to worship ? More to the point , where do Governors get authority to make those decisions ? The language of the First Amendment is very clear. There is no exception for war , fire, flood or pandemic.

While you might be somewhat tolerant too many governors think they do have the right to stop ALL religious services and activity. Including drive in and/or drive by worship.

There are limits to how far freedom of religion goes. For example, human sacrifice is against the law. It is not protected by the First Amendment. Holding services in a crowded church during a deadly pandemic isn't much different than human sacrifice. Again, over 30 pastors have died, and probably countless parishoners. Just one single choir practice in Washington with 60 people, led to 53 hospitalizations and 2 deaths from COVID-19.

One reason why church services could be especially deadly is because a disproportionate number of church attendees are elderly.

Nobody is trying to stop all religious services and activity, only what is not safe.

eagle2
05-29-2020, 01:54 PM
If you observe sensible spacing it is very, very hard to be infected with anything ( including covid ) outdoors. Italy got infected by an influx of covid positive people from CHINA !

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/03/25/biological-bomb-soccer-match-italy-linked-epicenter-deadly-outbreak/



I am not afraid of Covid. Neither is Bill Maher or Michael Moore.


Not being afraid isn't going to protect you, and not being afraid doesn't change the fact that over 100,000 Americans have died from the virus.



If you control for old age, pre-existing conditions and immune suppression the death rate from Covid is LOWER than that of the flu . California and Florida were very pro-active in protecting the elderly and locking down nursing homes and adult care facilities. Cali also used a very strict and comprehensive lockdown , Florida did not. Their covid numbers are comparable. Whether you look at overall death rate ; hospital admissions ; ICU stays ; any metric you like; their experiences have been comparable.

No it isn't. A higher percentage of flu deaths occur among the elderly than with COVID-19.



People from the Bronx can travel. They can also go Upstate and out to Long Island ; both of which are opening up so your point is what ? We should quarantine the entire Bronx ? For how long ? Will that include the Yankees ?

Far more people travel to local areas than distant areas. Yankees have cancelled all of their games so far.

Adrienne7
05-29-2020, 02:44 PM
RN notes on exposed vs infected:

You can be "exposed" with OR without becoming "infected".

You can be INFECTED without showing SYMPTOMS.

Another way of saying this is, infected does not necessarily mean they are showing symptoms, but they ARE CONTAGEOUS.

So if 200 were infected, that means they were both exposed (meaning the point at which the virus makes contact with the person's outer boundaries, in this case mucous membranes) AND then that it got deeper into their body and started producing more virus, which is contagious WHETHER OR NOT THEY SHOW SYMPTOMS.

There's a lot of confusion about the virus, but one thing that is well known at this point for certain is that you can have the virus present and replicating in your body while feeling totally fine AND being able to spread it to others at the same time.

eagle2
05-30-2020, 10:41 AM
You may want to re-read those cases. First of all , state vs. religion cases are a confused quagmire of inconsistent jurisprudence. However the Supreme Court has made it clear that ANY state interference with religious activity of any kind is subject to strict scrutiny. The state must show much more than just a rational basis.Their reasons must be compelling AND they must show that there are no alternatives. Most , maybe not all , but most state regulation of church services fails the test.

Last night the Supreme Court ruled against a church in California that challenged the state's stay at home orders.

Eric Stoner
06-02-2020, 07:26 AM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/03/25/biological-bomb-soccer-match-italy-linked-epicenter-deadly-outbreak/



Not being afraid isn't going to protect you, and not being afraid doesn't change the fact that over 100,000 Americans have died from the virus.


No it isn't. A higher percentage of flu deaths occur among the elderly than with COVID-19.



Far more people travel to local areas than distant areas. Yankees have cancelled all of their games so far.

Then explain how and why 80% of Covid deaths are among the ELDERLY !
Then explain Florida ( more elderly than N.Y. and N.J. and less than 2300 deaths ) Georgia ( no jump in deaths or new cases ) and Tennessee . All have similar numbers to California which did a MUCH stricter and more comprehensive lockdown than they did.
Asian countries like Japan ( with a heavy elderly population ) have death rates of less than 1 per 100,000.
In Europe Germany( 10.1 ) has a lower death rate than the U.S. ( 29.8 ) . Most other European countries have much higher rates than we do : Belgium -83.7 ; Spain -58 ; Britain 55.8 ; Italy 54.5 and France 42.6. All according to the Washington Post citing Johns Hopkins University. All have lots of elderly people.

Btw, is anyone else appalled by the reactions of "blue state" mayors and governors who were heavy handed with any business that tried to reopen early but are now permitting mass demonstrations without masks and social distancing ?

eagle2
06-02-2020, 10:30 AM
Then explain how and why 80% of Covid deaths are among the ELDERLY !


A much higher percentage of flu deaths are among the elderly.

https://i.imgur.com/dSdzUN8.png



Then explain Florida ( more elderly than N.Y. and N.J. and less than 2300 deaths ) Georgia ( no jump in deaths or new cases ) and Tennessee . All have similar numbers to California which did a MUCH stricter and more comprehensive lockdown than they did.
Asian countries like Japan ( with a heavy elderly population ) have death rates of less than 1 per 100,000.
In Europe Germany( 10.1 ) has a lower death rate than the U.S. ( 29.8 ) . Most other European countries have much higher rates than we do : Belgium -83.7 ; Spain -58 ; Britain 55.8 ; Italy 54.5 and France 42.6. All according to the Washington Post citing Johns Hopkins University. All have lots of elderly people.

Florida has more than 2,500 deaths so far, including 69 in the past day.

https://coronavirus.1point3acres.com/

There are people questioning how accurate FL and GA's figures are. Even so, both have higher death rates than CA, especially GA. GA's death rate is close to twice as high CA. Even though GA and FL re-opened, there are many businesses that remain closed and many people are continuing to shelter at home.

Britain delayed shutting down longer than any other major European country, and now has more deaths than any other European country. Greece was the first or one of the first European countries to shut down. So far, Greece has had 179 deaths. Britain has had close to 40,000.



Btw, is anyone else appalled by the reactions of "blue state" mayors and governors who were heavy handed with any business that tried to reopen early but are now permitting mass demonstrations without masks and social distancing ?

I'm not sure what their official policies are, but there's not much they can do if tens of thousands of people are protesting. I didn't see anything being done when a smaller number of people were protesting against lockdowns either.

Eric Stoner
06-02-2020, 10:55 AM
There you go again ? There is the percentage of flu and Covid deaths i.e. what percentage of dead people were elderly. Then there is the death rate per 100,000 people. By either measure the overwhelming number of dead , regardless of where they live , are ELDERLY.

Those states like California and Florida that locked down their nursing homes have much lower total deaths and much lower death rates than states like N.Y. , N.J. , Illinois and Pa. 80% of ALL Covid deaths in Minnesota and W.Va. were IN nursing homes. N.Y. says that 5,000 to 6,000 people died in nursing homes BUT they do not count nursing home patients and staff who died from Covid in hospitals. If they do then the total deaths of nursing home RESIDENTS would be 11,000 to 12,000 plus nursing home staff people who got infected in the nursing homes and then died in a hospital.

Eric Stoner
06-02-2020, 10:59 AM
A much higher percentage of flu deaths are among the elderly.

https://i.imgur.com/dSdzUN8.png


Florida has more than 2,500 deaths so far, including 69 in the past day.

https://coronavirus.1point3acres.com/

There are people questioning how accurate FL and GA's figures are. Even so, both have higher death rates than CA, especially GA. GA's death rate is close to twice as high CA. Even though GA and FL re-opened, there are many businesses that remain closed and many people are continuing to shelter at home.

Britain delayed shutting down longer than any other major European country, and now has more deaths than any other European country. Greece was the first or one of the first European countries to shut down. So far, Greece has had 179 deaths. Britain has had close to 40,000.



I'm not sure what their official policies are, but there's not much they can do if tens of thousands of people are protesting. I didn't see anything being done when a smaller number of people were protesting against lockdowns either.

You don't know ? ROTFLMAO ! Are you serious ?
Name one , just one mayor or governor who has even tried to enforce social distancing and break up groups larger than 10 or 25 or 50 among the demonstrators ? The same ones like DeBlasio and Cuomo and Pritzker and Grisholm who viciously shut down and persecuted any business owner who tried to reopen.

eagle2
06-02-2020, 06:06 PM
You don't know ? ROTFLMAO ! Are you serious ?


If you're going to be obnoxious and condescending, then I'm not interested in having a discussion, especially considering you don't know even basic facts, such as what "infected" means.

Eric Stoner
06-04-2020, 07:18 AM
If you're going to be obnoxious and condescending, then I'm not interested in having a discussion, especially considering you don't know even basic facts, such as what "infected" means.

Oh come now. You know me better than that. We've bantered back and forth for years in a civil manner.

Btw, it is often YOU who personalizes first. I don't mind . I can take it.

As for the word "infected " it can and does mean different things depending on the context. It can mean "sick" ; "exposed" and several other things. It is important because as YOU WELL KNOW , many people EXPOSED to Covid -19 do NOT have any symptoms. They can be and often are INFECTIOUS , meaning they can transmit the virus to others. I'm sorry , but I thought we AGREED about this.

As for the hypocritical attitude of many Blue State governors , it is a fact that they have hammered any business that has tried to open without their imprimatur despite all the precautions those businesses have taken. Yet these same folks are blithely permitting mass demonstrations without distancing or requiring masks. My point is a simple one - If we can have these demonstrations when groups are supposed to be limited in size then WHY can't businesses with strict sanitation , distancing and other precautions reopen. Likewise , they have had little to no sympathy for business owners and their employees but seem rather tolerant of looting those businesses. Looting and arson are destroying mostly black neighborhoods .
I could be patronizing and ask you whether or not you see any disconnect or inconsistency between the two policies but I don't want to insult you. I respect your intellect even when I strongly disagree with you.

miss.a.p1600
06-04-2020, 08:06 AM
Idiots here congregating in large groups Memorial weekend, high risk business rushed to open, plus some protestors waltzing around with no masks so there is a surge in cases here.

The city leaders here are likely to mandate people wearing masks in public until numbers go back down.