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rickdugan
10-16-2020, 12:58 PM
No, that's exactly what it is. You're entire argument is nothing more than, "people with fancy titles are saying this, so it must be true". Everything I've said is supported by facts and evidence. Nothing you've said is, especially the drivel in that declaration you posted. Please go back and reread where I posted what the logical fallacy, "appeal to authority" is, because you still don't seem to understand what it is.

There are many people who work past the age of 55, including teachers and other school employees. There have been over 50,000 deaths of Americans under the age of 65, including some teachers.

I'm not obfuscating or deflecting. I'm stating what it is. The entire argument of the nonsensical declaration you posted is, "This is what a few people with fancy titles are saying". Their "rationale" does not include any facts or evidence to support their drivel, other than the straw-man argument, "vulnerability to death from COVID-19 is more than a thousand-fold higher in the old and infirm than the young." It is not just the young who would be exposed to the virus, under what they're advocating. Please let me know if you want me to explain what a "straw-man" argument is.

It's obvious to anyone with a basic understanding of science and logic, that the drivel on that declaration amounts to nothing more than "this is what a few people with fancy titles are saying."

I understood exactly what you said Eagle - I just disagreed. If found the case in the Declaration, authored by experts in their fields, to be very compelling. No doubt the other experts who so-signed it did too or they wouldn't have done so. I also found their underlying rationale to make a lot of sense given what we all now know about COVID, including who it is dangerous to. Let the young go about their lives because it is not dangerous to them and heighten protections even more for high risk people. This way we alleviate a variety of other medical, social and economic ills brought on by population control measures while still protecting the high risk.

Btw Eagle we have a case study for that going on right her in FL now - and it's working. The overwhelming majority of new cases are in young people and our mortality rates have plummeted as a result. Meanwhile we are in fantastic fiscal, emotional and educational shape compared to NY and CA. We don't have any Times Square situations here in FL.

rickdugan
10-16-2020, 01:11 PM
Oh, and Eagle, we've only lost 8,000 people under the age of 50 nationwide. Most of that 50k death number involved people much closer to 65 than below it and many of those had other comorbidities. We are doing a much better job of protecting them too now.

jasmine22
10-16-2020, 01:37 PM
I can tell you. It is a GHOST TOWN. All theatres shut down. Including the Ed Sullivan where Colbert shoots his show. Most restaurants closed. Many permanently. Tourist traffic down to about 10%. Stores closed. Many permanently. Office buildings empty. Hotels closed. Many permanently.

Or the other side of the coin....Maybe the rent will go down finally and the creative and working class people who built New York can come back. Maybe it could be an edgy cool city again instead the gentrified watered down shell of its former self it became after Guiliani.

jasmine22
10-16-2020, 01:44 PM
Sadly jasmine a vaccine will unlikely be a panacea, at least any time in the next year or so. First because it will be hard to produce enough to meet supposed demand and, second, because there will likely be a lot of resistance to it from young people. I know that I have zero intention of putting a new rushed to market vaccine in my kids just to protect them from something that isn't dangerous to them anyway.

When the vaccine finally arrives, the debate will simply shift to whether people should take it, lol.

The real debate is....why did Rick Dugan come on a stripper forum to start this doom and gloom thread? It’s the end of the world Rick call up some friends and throw an apocalypse party if you’re not worried about the virus and stop whining like a baby to strangers. I think you get some kind of strange pleasure out of all this and I feel sorry for you as a man.

jasmine22
10-16-2020, 01:58 PM
Here’s the thing, we have so many problems in the USA because people are riling people up on the internet. I don’t really care if someone is a republican like I get both sides. What I don’t like, is the hate. There’s a virus, we have protect peoples health, can we for once in our lives, put health before money? But instead of coming together as a people and caring for each other, it’s tearing our country apart. And you starting this ridiculous thread here is not helping the problem it’s just pissing people off.

And clearly my responses to rick are made in sarcasm and dark humor, because we have to be positive. You don’t think these cities can rebuild themselves? Of course they will, it will be different yes, but that’s the cycle of life .

The rich move out of New York? NYC was built on immigrants and working class people, what’s wrong with bringing those jobs back? This is changing things, but maybe change doesn’t have to be bad. Maybe something wonderful will come out of this after the storm of Covid is over. The people who are adaptable to change will come out of this stronger. I feel bad for the people who died from this, we should be happy and grateful for our health instead of arguing over bullshit.

lurkingtitties
10-16-2020, 02:02 PM
The real debate is....why did Rick Dugan come on a stripper forum to start this doom and gloom thread? It’s the end of the world Rick call up some friends and throw an apocalypse party if you’re not worried about the virus and stop whining like a baby to strangers. I think you get some kind of strange pleasure out of all this and I feel sorry for you as a man.

Seriously it's so creepy and sad

Raziel
10-16-2020, 03:55 PM
Here’s the thing, we have so many problems in the USA because people are riling people up on the internet. I don’t really care if someone is a republican like I get both sides. What I don’t like, is the hate. There’s a virus, we have protect peoples health, can we for once in our lives, put health before money? But instead of coming together as a people and caring for each other, it’s tearing our country apart. And you starting this ridiculous thread here is not helping the problem it’s just pissing people off.

And clearly my responses to rick are made in sarcasm and dark humor, because we have to be positive. You don’t think these cities can rebuild themselves? Of course they will, it will be different yes, but that’s the cycle of life .

The rich move out of New York? NYC was built on immigrants and working class people, what’s wrong with bringing those jobs back? This is changing things, but maybe change doesn’t have to be bad. Maybe something wonderful will come out of this after the storm of Covid is over. The people who are adaptable to change will come out of this stronger. I feel bad for the people who died from this, we should be happy and grateful for our health instead of arguing over bullshit.

Perfect! Well done, Jasmine!

rickdugan
10-16-2020, 05:21 PM
Here’s the thing, we have so many problems in the USA because people are riling people up on the internet. I don’t really care if someone is a republican like I get both sides. What I don’t like, is the hate. There’s a virus, we have protect peoples health, can we for once in our lives, put health before money? But instead of coming together as a people and caring for each other, it’s tearing our country apart. And you starting this ridiculous thread here is not helping the problem it’s just pissing people off.

And clearly my responses to rick are made in sarcasm and dark humor, because we have to be positive. You don’t think these cities can rebuild themselves? Of course they will, it will be different yes, but that’s the cycle of life .

The rich move out of New York? NYC was built on immigrants and working class people, what’s wrong with bringing those jobs back? This is changing things, but maybe change doesn’t have to be bad. Maybe something wonderful will come out of this after the storm of Covid is over. The people who are adaptable to change will come out of this stronger. I feel bad for the people who died from this, we should be happy and grateful for our health instead of arguing over bullshit.

Jasmine, I came on here with what I believed was a message of hope. Finally scientists are questioning these destructive policies that promote fear and cause so much harm to so many people, especially children and low income folks. This is yet one more confirmation that young people should not be afraid of something that is less deadly to them than the common flu. The more this message gets out, the more that we can explore more rational ways to manage the risk of this virus without forcing people into poverty, depriving underprivileged children of their educations, having people die from other untreated medical, or enduring heightened ODs and suicides.

Here in FL, where we have looked at the numbers and made some common sense policy decisions, we know a lot about the virus now because we have let it run a more natural course. Knowledge is power. Most everyone knows several people who have had it now. People here are no longer afraid of the virus here the way they were in March and April, except of course for old people, which makes sense.

One aspect I have not talked much about is how much better things are for dancers here in FL. Every day and night, several thousand girls head to their clubs, no longer afraid about how they are going to buy food or pay their bills. Indeed in my local clubs, I've met a number of girls who have already had it and, as should come as no surprise, their symptoms were mild and went away quickly because they are young. They are not afraid of this thing anymore.

These are the messages of hope and inspiration that I continue to pass along. Unfortunately I do not have much control over people who greet these messages with anger and fear.

eagle2
10-17-2020, 08:34 PM
Florida has a population of approximately 21.5 million people, and close to 16,000 deaths from covid. Taiwan has a population of approximately 23.8 million people, and 7 deaths from covid. It seems that the destructive policies are the ones you advocate.

CFMNH44
10-18-2020, 06:37 AM
New Zealand bit the bullet, followed scientific advice and is back to normal.

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2020/06/15/new-zealand-super-rugby-coronavirus-fans-sellout

https://indianexpress.com/article/trending/trending-globally/netizens-react-after-photos-of-packed-new-zealand-stadium-gets-widely-shared-online-6723553/

whirlerz
10-18-2020, 09:21 AM
Influencer Dimitriy Stuzhuk 33,dead coronavirus, after telling followers it's not real.
https://www.eonline.com/news/1199447/influencer-dmitriy-stuzhuk-dead-of-coronavirus-after-telling-followers-it-wasnt-real

whirlerz
10-18-2020, 10:13 AM
The pandemic has benefitted 1 group of people: billionaires.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/pandemic-benefited-one-group-people-204834926.html

rickdugan
10-19-2020, 07:37 AM
Florida has a population of approximately 21.5 million people, and close to 16,000 deaths from covid. Taiwan has a population of approximately 23.8 million people, and 7 deaths from covid. It seems that the destructive policies are the ones you advocate.


New Zealand bit the bullet, followed scientific advice and is back to normal.

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2020/06/15/new-zealand-super-rugby-coronavirus-fans-sellout

https://indianexpress.com/article/trending/trending-globally/netizens-react-after-photos-of-packed-new-zealand-stadium-gets-widely-shared-online-6723553/

What's next, Bangladesh? ::)

I'm not going to get into a silly rabbit hole discussion of the differences between a tiny standalone country, with high levels of population control power and the ability to completely shut its borders, and a U.S. state that has neither. The open nature of this country, including the ease of interstate and international travel, made those types of restrictions impractical if not impossible. The same holds true with many European countries, which have also been hit hard.

We have to deal with the facts on the ground. COVID is here and we need a practical way to deal with it moving forward. It is not going away any time soon and a vaccine is not likely to be around in any real way until well into next year.

The virus is simply not especially dangerous to younger people, which is an important factor in decision making. Understanding this, Southern and Midwestern states, including FL, are trying to chart a balanced path. Yes an open economy means more infections and more deaths, but a closed economy also has a death cost as well as other potential harms to millions, especially children and the poor. The goal is to keep the death rate low enough, largely by protecting the elderly, that the cost of an open economy, in terms of both deaths and overall population harm, is lower than the cost of an economy closed for an extended period.

Eric Stoner
10-19-2020, 08:24 AM
Or the other side of the coin....Maybe the rent will go down finally and the creative and working class people who built New York can come back. Maybe it could be an edgy cool city again instead the gentrified watered down shell of its former self it became after Guiliani.

A classic case of wishes fathering thoughts.

Creative and working people are important. No doubt. So are the wealthy because they pay the taxes. The theatres, hotels and restaurants are important because they employ a lot of people. Tourists are important because they support those businesses plus retail , Uber , Lyft, taxis , buses and the subway.

Times Square started to look the way it did when Giuliani was Mayor. It came to full flower under Bloomberg and DeBlasio.

Eric Stoner
10-19-2020, 08:35 AM
Taiwan has something like 24 million people. They have had 7 deaths. They did NOT shut down their country. They admittedly inconvenienced about 1% of their population to protect the other 99%. They aggressively tested. Thanks to Fauci and the CDC we were slow thanks to the famous "glitch". They contact traced and quarantined those who were exposed. We used shut-downs which were both inefficient and ineffective. They tested EVERBODY travelling INTO the country. Last night, 60 Minutes reported how the CDC screwed up with just one cruise ship's passengers taken to Atlanta. None were quarantined. All went home and infected other people. And the whole country wore masks. Good ones. Effective ones. Not bandanas or most cloth masks that are nothing more than political window dressing. Remember how hard it was to find N95 masks back in March and April ?

South Korea acted in similar ways with similar results.

There is no doubt that we could have responded better and faster.

An even more serious point : Looking at things now, today is different than when this Covid thing was happening back in January , February and March. Our knowledge was gained over time. How infectious this thing was ; who was at the highest risk ; best ways to treat it etc. etc.

In hindsight , if we had done a total shutdown for two weeks including a total travel ban in March it would have been more effective. Instead we watched knucklehead Spring Breakers having fun before going home and infecting Granny.We can agree that Trump ought to have done more faster but, But , BUT except for one or two doom and gloomers nobody was advising him to do more, AT THE TIME ! He was reactive, not proactive. No doubt. But so was almost everybody else. I have repeatedly asked for examples of somebody who in "real time" was telling Trump to do different. So far, nobody has been able to name someone who was much farther ahead of the curve than Trump. Look at that nitwit head of the WHO. Look at Fauci's statements and how often he changed his tune. Try to remember all the detours we took to debate hydroxychloroquine and other treatments ; how we still debate whether Trump ever advocated mainlining bleach or other disinfectants or even whether Trump ought to have been wearing a mask every time he appeared in public.

That being said , if you dive into the hospitalization and death rates those most affected are overwhelmingly elderly ( over 65 ) and/or have pre-existing SERIOUS health problems. The young and otherwise healthy are having fewer symptoms ; not getting sick as much; not being hospitalized and their death rate from Covid is LESS than one tenth of one percent. Comparable to the FLU !

rickdugan
10-20-2020, 07:12 AM
Eric, Taiwan did indeed do everything you said, but it also shut its borders down completely for a period of time in March. It also started screening people coming from Wuhan all the way back in December.

But right or wrong, this is just a different country. The decentralized and unwieldy nature of our power system makes it hard to move the entire nation on a dime. The federal government is limited by our Constitution in what it can do unilaterally. During good times we benefit greatly from this as we can choose a state which best reflects our personal beliefs and preferences. During times of challenge, it slows down our collective response time. Heck even our response times to domestic natural disasters are very slow because of the copious amount of coordination required by federal, state and sometimes even local officials in order to execute an action plan.

Eric Stoner
10-20-2020, 08:03 AM
Rick - Yeah BUT, are you seriously contending that if Trump had advocated a total shutdown in late March that he couldn't have jawboned the governors to go along ? But who was telling Trump to do that THEN ? WHO ? Fauci ? He opposed the travel bans. He admittedly slow walked advocating mask usage because he feared shortages.

Even Eagle hasn't been able to come up with anybody who was telling Trump to do different back in February and March. Remember all the criticism Trump got for his Chinese travel ban in late January ?

Eric Stoner
10-20-2020, 08:10 AM
What did they expect? They closed retailers for months, not even allowing them to do curbside pickup until almost Summer or open for shopping until quite recently. People still can't visit entertainment venues. They also cannot eat in most restaurants since the 25% capacity limit is not operable for most of them. 7 damned months now. What in the world did they expect was going to happen to Times Square? How could they possibly have expected the hotels, restaurant, retailers and entertainment venues to survive 7 months of no income when they still have expenses to pay?

Then throw in the strict 14 day quarantine on anyone visiting from almost any other state, which ensures that the few who might have been tempted to go see this shit show in person would stay away instead.

Then the finishing touch is the draconian outdoor mask requirement for anyone walking the street, as nonsensical as it is given the low risk of spread outside. This was just to make sure that the job was complete by keeping even the locals from spending a lot of time exploring whatever few NYC entertainment and dining options still exist.

To this day nobody wants to go back into the city. I do business with companies in NYC and their employees are still working from home seven months later - with no end in sight. I have never been more grateful than I am now for moving to FL.

There is NO mask requirement just to walk the street in NYC. Social distancing is required and mask usage is mandated INDOORS.

The 14 day quarantine is political window dressing. There is no follow up for travelers.

rickdugan
10-20-2020, 08:35 AM
There is NO mask requirement just to walk the street in NYC. Social distancing is required and mask usage is mandated INDOORS.

The 14 day quarantine is political window dressing. There is no follow up for travelers.

Eric,

There is indeed an outdoor facemask requirement any time one cannot maintain 6 foot social distancing. Whether it is being enforced or not is another matter, but people who see this likely assume that it is. Here is the link:

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/imm/covid-19-face-covering-faq.pdf

Also the 14 day quarantine is hardly window dressing. I had a colleague who returned to NYC 4 weeks ago from a business trip to Atlanta and a contact tracer called him every single day to ask him where he was and what he was doing. But even if you were right, how would people looking in from other states know that? All they hear is a 14 day quarantine and a potential fine of up to $5,000 or one year in jail for breaking it, which is enough to cool their desire to see the Statue of Liberty until this shit stops.

Eric Stoner
10-20-2020, 09:27 AM
Eric,

There is indeed an outdoor facemask requirement any time one cannot maintain 6 foot social distancing. Whether it is being enforced or not is another matter, but people who see this likely assume that it is. Here is the link:

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/imm/covid-19-face-covering-faq.pdf

Also the 14 day quarantine is hardly window dressing. I had a colleague who returned to NYC 4 weeks ago from a business trip to Atlanta and a contact tracer called him every single day to ask him where he was and what he was doing. But even if you were right, how would people looking in from other states know that? All they hear is a 14 day quarantine and a potential fine of up to $5,000 or one year in jail for breaking it, which is enough to cool their desire to see the Statue of Liberty until this shit stops.

All true .I should have said it depends on where you come to NYC from.

eagle2
10-21-2020, 08:55 PM
Massachusetts study finds no rise in suicides during pandemic lockdown.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/10/20/world/covid-19-coronavirus-updates#massachusetts-study-finds-no-rise-in-suicides-during-pandemic-lockdown

rickdugan
10-22-2020, 05:57 AM
Massachusetts study finds no rise in suicides during pandemic lockdown.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/10/20/world/covid-19-coronavirus-updates#massachusetts-study-finds-no-rise-in-suicides-during-pandemic-lockdown

A study in one small state with data only running through May 2020? The economic impacts and social isolation issues are both rolling and compounding, meaning that the numbers have to be studied over the entire economic and restriction cycle to form any conclusions.

During every single pronounced economic downturn, suicides have risen. Every single one. The unprecedented social isolation element in states that continue to choke their residents can only be an additional aggravating factor. We will not know until well into next year what the real suicide toll of these lockdowns was, but if calls to suicide hotlines and the current strain on the mental health system is any indication, it is expected to be significant.

So while this is no doubt more than enough to satisfy folks who are in search of a study which supports their emotionally desired conclusion, including the analytically challenged writers at the NYT, I will wait for the much more meaningful CDC numbers next year to see the real picture.

dpacrkk
10-22-2020, 06:24 AM
TIL there are at least 36 small states in the US.

rickdugan
10-22-2020, 06:55 AM
TIL there are at least 36 small states in the US.

True and one "study' on any one of them for an insufficient period of time would be equally meaningless. MA kept many of its restrictions in place many months past May and most of their schools are still doing remote learning even now. We won't know the true impact of these restrictions upon MA residents until well into next year, but it's widely anticipated to be significant. MA's current unemployment rate is still one of the worst in the nation due to its never-ending restrictions and many of their school kids haven't had meaningful social contact with other kids for over 7 months now, which is especially hard on teenagers.

The longer that states like NY, CA, MA, IL, CT and a few others keep doing this to their people, the more convinced I am that their Governors don't really give a shit about their states' children and low income workers. Because if they did then they wouldn't be placing ongoing onerous restrictions upon those who are least likely to be hurt even if they do get the virus.

eagle2
10-22-2020, 08:59 AM
During every single pronounced economic downturn, suicides have risen. Every single one.

You're making things up. The trend for the suicide rate has been about the same during the economic downturn as it was before and after, and the rate was higher after the downturn ended, than it was while it was occurring. The suicide rate was higher in 2018, when we were at full employment, than it was in 2009 when the unemployment rate was 10%.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db362.htm

Age-adjusted suicide rates, by sex: United States, 1999–2018

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/images/databriefs/351-400/db362-fig1.gif

Eric Stoner
10-26-2020, 07:27 AM
Eagle - I have a question : How do YOU explain how "red" states like Florida and Texas have MUCH lower death rates than "blue" states like N.J. and N.Y. who have imposed much stricter lockdowns ? Similarly , in Europe those countries with the supposedly strictest lockdowns have seen the largest "second waves" of cases.

Sweden seems to be doing fine compared to many other European countries.

Second , do you recognize a difference between the infection and death rates ? In some states the infection rate ( measured ONLY by positive tests ) is going up without any increase in the death rate and marginal increase in hospitalizations.

I have frequently wondered why the so-called experts are not looking at who is getting infected ; who is getting sick ( actually getting symptoms ) ; who is getting very sick and who is getting hospitalized. Deaths are coming from the last two groups. Schoolkids are not getting infected or getting symptoms so maybe we should reopen our schools and if they are really nervous , just saran wrap the teachers ?

Raziel
10-26-2020, 07:54 AM
RE Red Vs Blue: Because they are colder?

RE Infection and Death: Things happen the way they happen. 200,300 deaths isn't something to smirk at. There are families being destroyed by this.

RE so called experts: This virus is still new, how are they supposed to know about this?

threlayer
10-26-2020, 10:22 AM
State-wide or Nation-wide lock-downs are not needed. But local- or county-wide ones are. Since the public moves around quite a bit, a nationwide Mask mandate with legal penalties is badly needed.

Your judgement and freedom MUST not endanger me. Just like you cannot falsely yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater.

Americans have so much freedom that we greatly abuse it and take our social responsibilities for granted. You want to live your way and do everything you want, find an uninhabited island to move to (hint: East Indies for example).

Eric Stoner
10-26-2020, 10:33 AM
Just requiring masks alone is not enough. First of all, most cloth masks are not very effective. Bandanas are virtually useless.

Masks PLUS social distancing help to control the spread.

threlayer
10-26-2020, 10:37 AM
I wasn't getting into the details commonly available to all. Thanks for clarifying.

eagle2
10-26-2020, 11:31 AM
Eagle - I have a question : How do YOU explain how "red" states like Florida and Texas have MUCH lower death rates than "blue" states like N.J. and N.Y. who have imposed much stricter lockdowns ? Similarly , in Europe those countries with the supposedly strictest lockdowns have seen the largest "second waves" of cases.

Sweden seems to be doing fine compared to many other European countries.

Second , do you recognize a difference between he infection and death rates ? In some states the infection rate ( measured ONLY by positive tests ) is going up without any increase in the death rate and marginal increase in hospitalizations.

I have frequently wondered why the so-called experts are not looking at who is getting infected ; who is getting sick ( actually getting symptoms ) ; who is getting very sick and who is getting hospitalized. Deaths are coming from the last two groups. Schoolkids are not getting infected or getting symptoms so maybe we should reopen our schools and if they are really nervous , just saran wrap the teachers ?

NY and NJ waited too long to shutdown. People weren't prepared when coronavirus first hit, and weren't taking it seriously. NY and NJ are much more densely populated than Florida and Texas. Over the summer, FL and TX had much higher death rates than NY and NJ. I remember, 20 - 30 people were dying from the virus every day in NY. In Florida and Texas, more than 200 people were dying every day.

Sweden is doing very poorly compared to neighboring countries. Sweden has had close to 6,000 deaths. Norway and Finland have had a few hundred.

Deaths lag a few weeks behind cases. If there is a significant increase in cases, you most likely won't see a corresponding increase in deaths for a few weeks.

threlayer
10-26-2020, 12:03 PM
Early on NJ and NYC had such high number of cases because of the influx of people from Europe, not because of the politics there. Those governors responded strongly after the danger became obvious, but still not early enough. But since then they pretty much have been quite competent.

jasmine22
10-26-2020, 06:33 PM
Eagle - I have a question : How do YOU explain how "red" states like Florida and Texas have MUCH lower death rates than "blue" states like N.J. and N.Y. who have imposed much stricter lockdowns ? Similarly , in Europe those countries with the supposedly strictest lockdowns have seen the largest "second waves" of cases.

Sweden seems to be doing fine compared to many other European countries.

Second , do you recognize a difference between he infection and death rates ? In some states the infection rate ( measured ONLY by positive tests ) is going up without any increase in the death rate and marginal increase in hospitalizations.

I have frequently wondered why the so-called experts are not looking at who is getting infected ; who is getting sick ( actually getting symptoms ) ; who is getting very sick and who is getting hospitalized. Deaths are coming from the last two groups. Schoolkids are not getting infected or getting symptoms so maybe we should reopen our schools and if they are really nervous , just saran wrap the teachers ?

Europeans live in more closely to each other, the housing in the northeast is based on the European model of housing. Also larger cities tend to be in blue states(LA, NYC). This red and blue thing is silly, it’s a worldwide problem.
Our infection rate is going up because people are looking out for themselves and not for one another. Also there are different strains of the virus. I actually don’t think we have enough information to really debate any of this, I believe that the “experts” know more than what they are telling us.
I also don’t get why everyone is so upset...we don’t even have a true lockdown in the USA. You are free to get on a plane and go to a more “free” state if you want to. Rick seems pretty happy in Florida and I still don’t know why he started this negative thread trying to argue with everyone when he should be busy down there enjoying himself.

jasmine22
10-26-2020, 06:39 PM
Early on NJ and NYC had such high number of cases because of the influx of people from Europe, not because of the politics there. Those governors responded strongly after the danger became obvious, but still not early enough. But since then they pretty much have been quite competent.

NY is doing a great job I think I mean yeah tourism is down but it will come back x100 once this is all over. The governor cares about the people not money and that is rare in politics . No one responded early enough because it wasn’t done on a federal level. And for those businesses that closed for good it’s really sad but at the same time, that’s life we’ve all been affected what can you do....? Cry about it? I mean people are dying from this shit would you rather be poor for a while or dead/hospital....?

jasmine22
10-26-2020, 06:41 PM
NY and NJ waited too long to shutdown. People weren't prepared when coronavirus first hit, and weren't taking it seriously. NY and NJ are much more densely populated than Florida and Texas. Over the summer, FL and TX had much higher death rates than NY and NJ. I remember, 20 - 30 people were dying from the virus every day in NY. In Florida and Texas, more than 200 people were dying every day.

Sweden is doing very poorly compared to neighboring countries. Sweden has had close to 6,000 deaths. Norway and Finland have had a few hundred.

Deaths lag a few weeks behind cases. If there is a significant increase in cases, you most likely won't see a corresponding increase in deaths for a few weeks.
Exactly! NYC has done an amazing turn around and Florida...I mean...I feel like that governor doesn’t give a damn about those people. I feel sorry for the retired people that live down there and are high risk.

eagle2
10-26-2020, 09:31 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/23/us/covid-hospitalizations.html



WEST ALLIS, Wis. — A hospital in Idaho is 99 percent full and warning that it may have to transfer coronavirus patients to hospitals in Seattle and Portland, Ore. Medical centers in Kansas City, Mo., turned away ambulances on a recent day because they had no room for more patients. And in West Allis, just outside Milwaukee, an emergency field hospital erected on the grounds of the Wisconsin State Fair admitted its first virus patient this week.

More than 41,000 people are currently hospitalized with the coronavirus in the United States, a 40 percent rise in the past month, and cooler weather that pushes more people indoors is threatening to expand the outbreak still more. At least 14 states saw more people hospitalized for the virus on a day in the past week than on any other day in the pandemic, according to the Covid Tracking Project. Seven more states are nearing their peaks.

Eric Stoner
10-27-2020, 08:04 AM
NY is doing a great job I think I mean yeah tourism is down but it will come back x100 once this is all over. The governor cares about the people not money and that is rare in politics . No one responded early enough because it wasn’t done on a federal level. And for those businesses that closed for good it’s really sad but at the same time, that’s life we’ve all been affected what can you do....? Cry about it? I mean people are dying from this shit would you rather be poor for a while or dead/hospital....?

Sigh. If only. Cuomo cares ONLY about himself. He doesn't wear a mask. Neither does Fredo , although both love to tell other people to wear them. He ordered nursing homes to take in Covid patients because the hospitals wanted him to. The same hospitals that contribute millions to his campaigns.

"Tourism is down ". I would be rotflmao of it weren't so tragic. Tourism is down some 90 % and if we are lucky , maybe half that traffic will come back. Something like half of all NYC restaurants are already permanently closed or well on their way.
The tax base has been clobbered and all Big Bird can do is stand around hat in hand waiting for State and Federal bailouts.
The transit system is broke and permanently damaged. Add in increased crime and dirtier streets and it is no suprise why so many people have moved out. Permanently.

Eric Stoner
10-27-2020, 08:06 AM
Exactly! NYC has done an amazing turn around and Florida...I mean...I feel like that governor doesn’t give a damn about those people. I feel sorry for the retired people that live down there and are high risk.

Those are the people that Governor DeSantis focused on protecting. Unlike N.Y. and N.J.

Eric Stoner
10-27-2020, 08:23 AM
NY and NJ waited too long to shutdown. People weren't prepared when coronavirus first hit, and weren't taking it seriously. NY and NJ are much more densely populated than Florida and Texas. Over the summer, FL and TX had much higher death rates than NY and NJ. I remember, 20 - 30 people were dying from the virus every day in NY. In Florida and Texas, more than 200 people were dying every day.

Sweden is doing very poorly compared to neighboring countries. Sweden has had close to 6,000 deaths. Norway and Finland have had a few hundred.

Deaths lag a few weeks behind cases. If there is a significant increase in cases, you most likely won't see a corresponding increase in deaths for a few weeks.

Despite some blips , the overall Covid death rate in "Red" states is much lower than in "Blue" states despite much less strict lockdowns. Nationwide the overall death rate from Covid has been going down thanks to more 1. effective treatments , 2. better use of respirators and other pulmonary modalities and 3. because the typical patient is now younger and healthier than back in February and March.

We have discussed Sweden numerous times. Yes , their death rate has been higher than Norway and Denmark but they kept their schools open and their economy functioning. The interesting question is whether they have achieved herd immunity .

eagle2
10-27-2020, 11:41 AM
Despite some blips , the overall Covid death rate in "Red" states is much lower than in "Blue" states despite much less strict lockdowns. Nationwide the overall death rate from Covid has been going down thanks to more 1. effective treatments , 2. better use of respirators and other pulmonary modalities and 3. because the typical patient is now younger and healthier than back in February and March.


No it isn't. Since July, NY has been averaging less than 15 deaths per day. Florida has been averaging over 100. TX averaged over 200 deaths a day during July and Aug

https://ycharts.com/indicators/new_york_coronavirus_deaths_per_day
https://ycharts.com/indicators/florida_coronavirus_deaths_per_day
https://ycharts.com/indicators/texas_coronavirus_deaths_per_day



We have discussed Sweden numerous times. Yes , their death rate has been higher than Norway and Denmark but they kept their schools open and their economy functioning.

Sweden had ten times as many deaths as their neighbors, and their gdp contracted 8.3% second quarter.

https://tradingeconomics.com/sweden/gdp-growth

kamiliam
10-27-2020, 11:47 AM
This is just for cases, but a jaw-dropping graphic nonetheless. We have no real idea the long term effects of having COVID. The Swedes knew they were letting old and sick die.
https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/3835611/?fbclid=IwAR0CXI2FWTa7ig-ctGl5Ac7Td6gCZruiUqolmQVoshw35jTU53EIZJPLFF4

Eric Stoner
10-27-2020, 11:58 AM
EAGLE ! Here we go again. Do you READ your own links ? Did you really LOOK at the death rates in Florida and Texas ? Did you ? Really ? The worst numbers in both or either state were nowhere near the worst numbers in N.Y. and N.J. Some days they are higher than N.Y. and N.J. and some days they are on a par. We have discussed until the average S-Web reader's eyes have glazed over how Covid "deaths" are counted.

Likewise , did you LOOK at Sweden's GDP rate and compare it to Norway and Denmark ? Did you ? Really ? Did you note the rough similarity ?
And Sweden kept it's schools open and it's society remained and is functional. As compared to Italy and Spain which are both shutting down all over again.
Sweden's initial death rate ( as we have discussed past the point of being boring ) was as high as it was because it did not secure it's nursing homes. Gee ! Just like N.Y. and N.J. with the same tragic results. In Sweden 5200 of the 6000 Covid deaths were people aged 70 and over ; about 86% of all Covid deaths.
Norway and Denmark have seen an explosion in the number of new cases over the past month or so. All it means is that people are testing positive. A Positive test is counted as a "new case ". There are a few people who contend that the same people get each positive test counted as a separate new case. I don't know. It's possible. I do know that a ridiculously high percentage of people under 50 who test positive 1. never get sick or 2. if they do , recover quickly with no permanent effects.
In the U.S. , according to Becker's Hospital Review , Wisconsin has 1350 Cvoid cases with over 12.000 available hospital beds. Point being that contrary to the pearl clutching and hysteria in the N.Y. Times , we are NOT being overrun with new cases. In Florida , only 4 % of hospital beds are being occupied by Covid patients. Most of the new cases are people under 30 who are either not getting sick or experiencing mild symptoms. E.R. visits for Covid are up BUT a lot of those people are not sick enough to be admitted. They are being treated as outpatients. Some aren't being treated at all.

eagle2
10-27-2020, 12:31 PM
EAGLE ! Here we go again. Do you READ your own links ? Did you really LOOK at the death rates in Florida and Texas ? Did you ? Really ? The worst numbers in both or either state were nowhere near the worst numbers in N.Y. and N.J. Some days they are higher than N.Y. and N.J. and some days they are on a par. We have discussed until the average S-Web reader's eyes have glazed over how Covid "deaths" are counted.


I said, since July.

Eric Stoner
10-28-2020, 07:28 AM
I said, since July.

Alright. Fair enough but I read your WHOLE link with ALL the numbers. Early on in March , in July and the latest numbers.

Btw, while Sweden's GDP numbers are down , so is all of Europe. On a comparative basis Sweden is doing rather well compared to most of Europe. And their schools are open. So are most of their businesses and they are not dropping like flies on the streets of Stockholm.

Raziel
10-28-2020, 07:33 AM
Dude, it's gonna change! This shit isn't settled. Next month New York could be through the roof! Sweden likewise. Do you happen to have a Crystal Ball? It's possible that any state or nation could hit a spike.

Eric Stoner
10-28-2020, 10:05 AM
Dude, it's gonna change! This shit isn't settled. Next month New York could be through the roof! Sweden likewise. Do you happen to have a Crystal Ball? It's possible that any state or nation could hit a spike.

Various states and countries ARE seeing spikes. And then they subside. It is almost November. We have TREATMENTS now that we didn't have then. We know more NOW than we did then.

Spikes are being counted up how ? Positive tests ? Doctor visits ? ER visits ? Hospitalizations ? Deaths ?
I ask repeatedly : Who is getting sick ? How old are they ? The recovery rate for those under 50 is over 99%. The overall recovery rate is running around 97 %.

Raziel
10-28-2020, 10:21 AM
We do? No we don't. We're nowhere NEAR a vaccine. WEAR A MASK. 97%? Do you wanna be in that last 3? 300,800 million people in the United States, how many deaths does that 3% make? Even ONE is too many!

Eric Stoner
10-28-2020, 10:53 AM
We do? No we don't. We're nowhere NEAR a vaccine. WEAR A MASK. 97%? Do you wanna be in that last 3? 300,800 million people in the United States, how many deaths does that 3% make? Even ONE is too many!

You illustrate the problem perfectly . For what disease is there a 0 % death rate ? Not the Flu. Not pneumonia .

I did NOT say a vaccine. I said T R E A T M E NT . We have several that have proven to be effective.

The 3% death rate is based on ALL Covid cases. 3 % of those who have Covid die. Now, not every one of those people died from Covid. There are some who were positive for the virus BUT they died from something else and yet were counted as a Covid death. Why ? Because under current regulations the hospitals get higher reimbursements for Covid cases. The more positive tests the better. The more Covid cases the better. Remember how a lot of hospitals had to curtail money making operations ? A lot of hip replacements and tummy tucks were put on hold. Covid helped the hospitals make up the difference.
The death rate for Covid positive people UNDER 50 is less than one half of one percent i.e. the recovery rate is 99.75 %. Look at the numbers yourself. Argue with the CDC and Johns Hopkins.

Even the recovery rates for those Over 50 and Over 70 are going up.

This thing is NOT the bubonic plague. Serious ? Yes. Potentially fatal ? Uhhh yeah, maybe but not very likely. Highly infectious ? Definitely, thus we ought to wear EFFECTIVE masks and avoid crowds. More indoor than outdoor but we still ought to avoid them. It does NOT mean that we have to cower in our homes and not go about our business as normally as possible within sensible limits.

Raziel
10-28-2020, 11:08 AM
Oh, so we can TREAT people until they die. Gotcha.

How about WEAR A FUCKING MASK AND SOCIALLY DISTANCE?

Then you don't have to roll the dice.

eagle2
10-28-2020, 11:22 AM
Alright. Fair enough but I read your WHOLE link with ALL the numbers. Early on in March , in July and the latest numbers.

Btw, while Sweden's GDP numbers are down , so is all of Europe. On a comparative basis Sweden is doing rather well compared to most of Europe. And their schools are open. So are most of their businesses and they are not dropping like flies on the streets of Stockholm.

Sweden's economy is doing worse than Finland's and Norway's.

https://tradingeconomics.com/norway/gdp-growth
https://tradingeconomics.com/finland/gdp-growth