View Full Version : Rioters storm Capital Building in DC
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AChildOfBoredom
01-13-2021, 08:36 PM
If Twitter wants to be a "private " platform where Dorsey et.al. get to decide who gets to speak then they are not entitled to Government provided immunity.
You can cite legislation which says this? This very forum - which exists as a private entity - is covered under Section 230. They ban people pretty regularly here.
AChildOfBoredom
01-13-2021, 10:55 PM
Fuck this… I’m not done there. For the last… really, since the Obama administration, but but there’s been a particular emboldening about the terminology used during the last four… I’ve constantly been hearing, “If a restaurant doesn’t wanna serve niggers and yids, they shouldn’t have to”, “if a baker doesn’t want to bake a cake for faggots and dykes, they shouldn’t have to”, “if people have a problem with it, the market will take care of it”, etc., etc. Now that they’re seeing that very principle of laissez-faire capitalism being applied in a way that doesn’t favor them, now suddenly they’re against it. Funny how that works, isn’t it? Now, how DARE they ban someone’s account. How DARE they remove themselves as a potential platform for seditionists to congregate. Well, if people don’t like it, then the market will take care of it, right?
Raziel
01-14-2021, 06:10 AM
Apparently Nancy Pelosi got that Lectern back. I'm looking right at it on Morning Joe. Wonder what's going to happen to the Idiot that stole it?
Eric Stoner
01-14-2021, 09:12 AM
Children who enter with their parents should stay with their parents.
Under Obama, only children who entered the country without their parents were temporarily placed in detention detention centers, and released to HHS within 72 hours, as the law requires. Obama's policy was to make every effort to keep families together, and only separate families as a last resort. Trump started a new policy of forcibly removing children from parents for all families attempting to enter the US, including families who were legally seeking asylum. Some of these children were placed in detention for weeks or months at a time, which is against the law. The conditions in these detention centers were so horrific, that some of these children died. There's one case of a teenage boy dying on the bathroom floor, because the staff refused to send him to the hospital. Children were not provided with basic necessities, including soap, toothbrushes, and blankets. In some cases, parents were deported while the children remained here. There is no limit to Trump's cruelty. He's a very sick sociopath.
The small children who were brought here with their parents were not responsible, and should not be the ones punished. You don't know what the family's situation was to cause them to come here. I'm sorry, but there is something wrong with you if you don't see anything wrong with two and three year old children being forcibly removed from the parents and thrown in detention centers, where they're kept in horrible conditions, with no formal supervision. I understand that in a democracy, I'm not always going to get my way in elections, and it's very possible that the elected president's views may be very different than mine, but I expect at least some sense of decency from the POTUS. I've come to detest Trump for his cruelty and complete indifference to the suffering of others. He belongs in prison, not the White House.
We are getting quite far off the original topic. I think the Trump policy while not the most humane ; was humane enough. You disagree and that's fine. In fact you are outraged and that's O.K. too. Afaik you have expressed your outrage and disgust with Trump and almost all of his policies and that is fine and dandy. I have asked you what you would do with those children that does not encourage bad behavior i.e. illegal entry ? Compared to the way most countries treat illegal immigrants, including most of Western Europe our detention facilities and policies were relatively humane
S-Web is a forum . Open to all who obey the rules afaik. Those who get suspended and occasionally banned have broken those rules. Usually after repeated warnings. Few if any are missed. Except for Melonie of course lol.
Twitter and 'Facebook are platforms. Whether their owners like it or not, they have become part of the public forum. They have become an essential part of political communication for both parties and various public figures. Dorsey admitted yesterday that banning Trump was an extreme measure that he himself finds troubling. I'll dig out his exact quote and post it in due course.
Eric Stoner
01-14-2021, 09:14 AM
Trump is a terrorist. I'm glad you agree he should be banned.
That is hyperbolic nonsense and you know it. He's an egomaniac and a lot of other things but he is not a terrorist. Al Queda and Iran probably think so and that is fine with me.
Optimist
01-14-2021, 09:30 AM
Fuck this… I’m not done there. For the last… really, since the Obama administration, but but there’s been a particular emboldening about the terminology used during the last four… I’ve constantly been hearing, “If a restaurant doesn’t wanna serve niggers and yids, they shouldn’t have to”, “if a baker doesn’t want to bake a cake for faggots and dykes, they shouldn’t have to”, “if people have a problem with it, the market will take care of it”, etc., etc. Now that they’re seeing that very principle of laissez-faire capitalism being applied in a way that doesn’t favor them, now suddenly they’re against it. Funny how that works, isn’t it? Now, how DARE they ban someone’s account. How DARE they remove themselves as a potential platform for seditionists to congregate. Well, if people don’t like it, then the market will take care of it, right?
FACTS. In the 80s and 90sthatwas their jam! They stayed on the phone calling a CEO or board of directors of network head to get things cancelled. When others take a page out of that book, they derisively call it Cancel Culture! This is merely the market responding to people endangering their brand power. Trump has been horrible for business.
Eric Stoner
01-14-2021, 09:32 AM
From Dorsey's statement yesterday : Banning accounts " has real and significant ramifications. I feel a ban is a failure of ours ultimately to promote healthy conversation . ... these actions fragment the public conversation. They divide us .They limit the potential for clarification, redemption and learning.
AND SETS A PRECEDENT I FEEL IS DANGEROUS : The power an individual or corporation has over a part of the global public conversation. ... over the long term it will be destructive to the noble purpose and ideals of the open internet. "
He did it because he claimed that Trump promoted or encouraged violence. Well it turns out that the extremist nuts were storming the Capitol while Trump was still speaking over a mile away. Trump DID encourage those attending the rally to "Peacefully and patriotically PROTEST ". If he banned Trump for repeated lies that's easily dealt with by exposing those lies. Fact checking and awarding "Pinocchios " seems to be more appropriate than banning Trump
Optimist
01-14-2021, 09:34 AM
Apparently Nancy Pelosi got that Lectern back. I'm looking right at it on Morning Joe. Wonder what's going to happen to the Idiot that stole it?
He is currently in custody reviewing his Life Choices! He tried to sell it on EBAY and gave himself away in the attempt.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/the-guy-who-stole-speaker-pelosis-lectern-has-been-arrested/ar-BB1cBZVS
Adam Christian Johnson, 36, is charged with multiple counts, including knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority; theft of government property; and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds. The counts are summarized in a press release from the Justice Dept. That same press release summarizes Johnson’s crime saying, “Johnson illegally entered the United States Capitol and removed the Speaker of the House’s lectern from where it had been stored on the House side of the Capitol building. In a Statement of Facts, submitted by Special Agent Jeng of the FBI, the lectern is described as being valued at more than $1,000 by a curator for the House of Representatives.
dpacrkk
01-14-2021, 10:13 AM
from dorsey's statement yesterday : Banning accounts " has real and significant ramifications. I feel a ban is a failure of ours ultimately to promote healthy conversation . ... These actions fragment the public conversation. They divide us .they limit the potential for clarification, redemption and learning.
And sets a precedent i feel is dangerous : The power an individual or corporation has over a part of the global public conversation. ... Over the long term it will be destructive to the noble purpose and ideals of the open internet. "
I think he's being too hard on Twitter. No matter what, we aren't in an ideal world. There are some people that can never be part of healthy conversation, and other amoral opportunists that will take advantage of a giant soapbox to manipulate populists into getting them into or keeping them in power.
he did it because he claimed that trump promoted or encouraged violence. Well it turns out that the extremist nuts were storming the capitol while trump was still speaking over a mile away. Trump did encourage those attending the rally to "peacefully and patriotically protest ".
This again. You're being intentionally obtuse. One statement does not undo an hour of speech with phrases like "rigged election," an "egregious assault on democracy," "you'll never take back the country with weakness, you have to show strength," and (here's the worst one) "the election was stolen, let’s march to the Capitol."
If he banned trump for repeated lies that's easily dealt with by exposing those lies. Fact checking and awarding "pinocchios " seems to be more appropriate than banning trump
This only works in an ideal world. There already are fact checking resources; do you think the median American uses them? Hell no! People wouldn't have fallen for five years of baseless claims and outright lies if this was the case. There already are annotations on content that is disputed or questionable. And to certain people, those messages noting these claims get ignored and are seen as "the lamestream media covering up the truth!"
miss.a.p1600
01-14-2021, 10:25 AM
From Dorsey's statement yesterday : Banning accounts " has real and significant ramifications. I feel a ban is a failure of ours ultimately to promote healthy conversation . ... these actions fragment the public conversation. They divide us .They limit the potential for clarification, redemption and learning.
AND SETS A PRECEDENT I FEEL IS DANGEROUS : The power an individual or corporation has over a part of the global public conversation. ... over the long term it will be destructive to the noble purpose and ideals of the open internet. "
He did it because he claimed that Trump promoted or encouraged violence. Well it turns out that the extremist nuts were storming the Capitol while Trump was still speaking over a mile away. Trump DID encourage those attending the rally to "Peacefully and patriotically PROTEST ". If he banned Trump for repeated lies that's easily dealt with by exposing those lies. Fact checking and awarding "Pinocchios " seems to be more appropriate than banning Trump
Trump said the part about “peaceful protest” to cover his ass legally but you seem to have missed the years of him manipulating a portion of his supporters (the unstable ones) who “showed up and fought like hell”
When you lie it’s EASY to manipulate and negatively influence people to do what you want them to do.
His lies were tagged as false yet and his deranged supporters STILL believe every word coming out his mouth in addition to spreading his lies. His lies were constantly exposed but yet he kept doing it over n over again.
When a person is in a position of leadership it’s more dangerous to allow constant falsehoods to be consistently mass distributed. Leaders are expected to be held to higher standards than the average Joe. Freedom of speech has limits and there are consequences to what you say.
This is where Trump fails. He (nor a portion of his supporters) doesn’t understand the concept of consequences for one’s action. Most people are scared of Trump n don’t hold him accountable when he fucks up.
He fucked up admitting to being a sexual predator. He fucked up mocking disabled people, women, blacks n Hispanics. He fucked up ignoring coronavirus threat. He fucked up riling up his supporters which lead to violence at the capitol. Mfs are tired of his shit and his supporters constant gaslighting.
When a child keeps breaking rules you have to make the punishment more severe for each infraction or else they’ll just keep doing the negative behavior which gets worse over time.
Eric Stoner
01-14-2021, 10:55 AM
I think he's being too hard on Twitter. No matter what, we aren't in an ideal world. There are some people that can never be part of healthy conversation, and other amoral opportunists that will take advantage of a giant soapbox to manipulate populists into getting them into or keeping them in power.
This again. You're being intentionally obtuse. One statement does not undo an hour of speech with phrases like "rigged election," an "egregious assault on democracy," "you'll never take back the country with weakness, you have to show strength," and (here's the worst one) "the election was stolen, let’s march to the Capitol."
This only works in an ideal world. There already are fact checking resources; do you think the median American uses them? Hell no! People wouldn't have fallen for five years of baseless claims and outright lies if this was the case. There already are annotations on content that is disputed or questionable. And to certain people, those messages noting these claims get ignored and are seen as "the lamestream media covering up the truth!"
I have repeatedly expressed agreement with part of your post. Trump WAS a sore loser . He FAILED to exhibit anything resembling good grace. He had no business holding that rally. His statements WERE lies for the most part . He did tell them to go to the Capitol albeit "peacefully and patriotically ". The issue or question is : To do what ? To try and pressure Congress and Pence ? Whether he likes it or not the people who went to that rally were Trump supporters . He bears responsibility for their being at the rally.
Trump smeared himself with his own feces by A. pursuing nonsensical election challenges and B. not taking any of several opportunities to call a halt to the nonsense BEFORE any of it got out of hand. Not to mention various statements and tweets that bore no relation to reality. Until yesterday, his statements were weak and inadequate. Yesterday he was a day late and a dollar short . To put it mildly.
Eric Stoner
01-14-2021, 10:57 AM
Trump said the part about “peaceful protest” to cover his ass legally but you seem to have missed the years of him manipulating a portion of his supporters (the unstable ones) who “showed up and fought like hell”
When you lie it’s EASY to manipulate and negatively influence people to do what you want them to do.
His lies were tagged as false yet and his deranged supporters STILL believe every word coming out his mouth in addition to spreading his lies. His lies were constantly exposed but yet he kept doing it over n over again.
When a person is in a position of leadership it’s more dangerous to allow constant falsehoods to be consistently mass distributed. Leaders are expected to be held to higher standards than the average Joe. Freedom of speech has limits and there are consequences to what you say.
This is where Trump fails. He (nor a portion of his supporters) doesn’t understand the concept of consequences for one’s action. Most people are scared of Trump n don’t hold him accountable when he fucks up.
He fucked up admitting to being a sexual predator. He fucked up mocking disabled people, women, blacks n Hispanics. He fucked up ignoring coronavirus threat. He fucked up riling up his supporters which lead to violence at the capitol. Mfs are tired of his shit and his supporters constant gaslighting.
When a child keeps breaking rules you have to make the punishment more severe for each infraction or else they’ll just keep doing the negative behavior which gets worse over time.
As I have posted, there is a lot of truth in what you say.
Eric Stoner
01-14-2021, 12:58 PM
A big part of the problem appears to be that Trump does not or cannot understand how and why he lost. In the hope that he is closet reader of this board let's help him out. Trump lost because ( in descending order ) :
1.Covid. Including his slow response to same and the collateral economic damage from the shutdowns. Not to mention Trump's silly catfighting with Fauci and others.
2. Trump is not a professional politician and didn't listen to those who are . He confused and conflated rally attendance with voter turnout. The Dems had a much better ground game and understood mail-in voting and used it to their advantage. He had a rebounding economy that he could have and should have emphasized but wouldn't listen to Kudlow and Steve Moore who told him to keep hammering away on dinner table issues.
3. Trump's performance in the FIRST debate. Loud, rude , arrogant and without the good sense to let Joe prattle on and lose himself in the weeds. It turned off even more of the suburban housewives Trump needed to win.
4. Donald Trump. He was his own worst enemy.
He did NOT lose because of media bias. There certainly was but Trump could have and should have bypassed them the way he did the last time. If he really had the goods on Hunter and Joe, and Twitter was blocking news reports and the mainstream media wasn't reporting, then why didn't Trump roll out a commercial or two setting out the hanky panky ?
It was NOT a rigged election. As I have explained, the Dems understood early voting and mail-in voting better than Trump did. Whatever irregularities and fraud there may have been was minor and not enough to affect the vote totals in any state. Not Georgia. Not Pennsylvania. None of the battleground states that Trump lost. The Dems had a better ground game and out-registered new voters and got them to vote.
I am sure there were other factors that played a role but I just tried to hit the highlights.
Nothing was "stolen" . Joe won and little Donnie lost. Period.
dpacrkk
01-14-2021, 01:01 PM
let's help him out.
No.
/5char
eagle2
01-14-2021, 02:13 PM
That is hyperbolic nonsense and you know it. He's an egomaniac and a lot of other things but he is not a terrorist. Al Queda and Iran probably think so and that is fine with me.
Trump knowingly incites violence towards others. A Republican member of Congress who voted to impeach Trump bought body armor because he fears for his life, from Trump supporters. There were other Republicans who wanted to vote for impeachment, but didn't, because they feared for their lives.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbrewster/2021/01/14/gop-congressman-who-voted-to-impeach-trump-says-he-will-buy-body-armor-because-he-fears-for-his-life/
If that's not terrorism, I don't know what is.
Trump knows his rhetoric leads to violence, but he continues saying the same things. ABC News did an investigation, and found 54 cases invoking 'Trump' in connection with violence, threats, alleged assaults. They found zero cases for Obama and Bush.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/blame-abc-news-finds-17-cases-invoking-trump/story?id=58912889
This is why tech firms were right to silence Trump on social media.
eagle2
01-14-2021, 02:15 PM
We are getting quite far off the original topic. I think the Trump policy while not the most humane ; was humane enough. You disagree and that's fine. In fact you are outraged and that's O.K. too. Afaik you have expressed your outrage and disgust with Trump and almost all of his policies and that is fine and dandy. I have asked you what you would do with those children that does not encourage bad behavior i.e. illegal entry ? Compared to the way most countries treat illegal immigrants, including most of Western Europe our detention facilities and policies were relatively humane
Children died in those facilities. How can you possibly say they're humane?
whirlerz
01-14-2021, 02:36 PM
Cops posing w/rioters for selfies, really?
https://news.yahoo.com/capitol-police-had-one-mission-125909336.html
AChildOfBoredom
01-14-2021, 03:16 PM
Children died in those facilities. How can you possibly say they're humane?
There’s also two things about this which people were mindful of for the last four years but are likely going to have a bit of ‘memory hole’ with now…
1: that did not start with the Trump administration. One place where I agree with Herr Stoner here is regarding media bias. They highlighted the practice during that time, now they’ll be silent about it.
2: it will not end with the Biden administration. Not likely, anyhow. You just won’t be hearing about it on the evening news.
whirlerz
01-14-2021, 05:29 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2021/01/14/secret-service-bathroom-ivanka-trump-jared-kushner/
eagle2
01-14-2021, 05:51 PM
There’s also two things about this which people were mindful of for the last four years but are likely going to have a bit of ‘memory hole’ with now…
1: that did not start with the Trump administration. One place where I agree with Herr Stoner here is regarding media bias. They highlighted the practice during that time, now they’ll be silent about it.
2: it will not end with the Biden administration. Not likely, anyhow. You just won’t be hearing about it on the evening news.
There weren't any children who died while being held in detention under Obama.
AChildOfBoredom
01-14-2021, 09:59 PM
There weren't any children who died while being held in detention under Obama.
Yes, Obama’s policy was more lenient and he got lucky that it either it didn’t happen or it wasn’t reported. His administration - including the president-elect - built the cages. ICE still separated children from their parents, and will continue to. Maybe Biden will relax the Trump ‘zero tolerance’ policy, but it’ll still happen, and people will remain willfully oblivious to it simply because it’s not a Trump administration it’s happening under, and wearing those blinders will allow people to sleep better at night, assured in their self-righteous belief that having voted for Biden gives them a pass to completely quit giving a shit yet still believe their vote makes them a good person.
miss.a.p1600
01-15-2021, 06:52 AM
Eric did say those kids could come stay with him.
But he’d make them sweep leaves n shovel snow lol.
Eric Stoner
01-15-2021, 09:13 AM
Trump knowingly incites violence towards others. A Republican member of Congress who voted to impeach Trump bought body armor because he fears for his life, from Trump supporters. There were other Republicans who wanted to vote for impeachment, but didn't, because they feared for their lives.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbrewster/2021/01/14/gop-congressman-who-voted-to-impeach-trump-says-he-will-buy-body-armor-because-he-fears-for-his-life/
If that's not terrorism, I don't know what is.
Trump knows his rhetoric leads to violence, but he continues saying the same things. ABC News did an investigation, and found 54 cases invoking 'Trump' in connection with violence, threats, alleged assaults. They found zero cases for Obama and Bush.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/blame-abc-news-finds-17-cases-invoking-trump/story?id=58912889
This is why tech firms were right to silence Trump on social media.
We could go on and on arguing cause and effect. I actually agree with you , in part, that Trump bears some responsibility for SOME of the violence.
However the storming of the Capitol was NOT Trump's idea and appears to have been planned for weeks without any impetus or input from Trump. The violence was actually occurring while Trump was speaking over a mile away. The fruits and nuts who attacked The Capitol did not need Trump's rhetoric to incite them. They were already excited and incited.
What Trump IS responsible for and which btw would have made a solid ground for a genuine good faith impeachment, were his ham fisted attempts to interfere with the Congressional tally of Electoral Votes. And arguably his attempts to pressure Georgia public officials to "find" him votes. Both clear violations of his oath to "preserve ,protect and defend the Constitution... " I also think his holding the rally in the first place had no legitimate purpose , was potentially inflammatory and ran counter to his Presidential Oath.
Eric Stoner
01-15-2021, 09:14 AM
Eric did say those kids could come stay with him.
But he’d make them sweep leaves n shovel snow lol.
No. I have every intention of paying market wages. I just have to look up some good recipes for gruel.
Eric Stoner
01-15-2021, 09:20 AM
Children died in those facilities. How can you possibly say they're humane?
Nobody intended those children to die. A few died who were very sick to begin with ALTHOUGH the medical care was not optimal. They could have been released at the border and died anyway. Afaik they were detained because they were trying to pursue claims of asylum and refused to go back to their native countries. Rather than release them, they were held until their claims could be vetted and adjudicated.
Also afaik the children fell into two groups - unaccompanied minors and those who came with their parents. We did not have the facilities to keep the families together. Maybe we should have.
Raziel
01-15-2021, 09:39 AM
Nobody intended those children to die. A few died who were very sick to begin with ALTHOUGH the medical care was not optimal. They could have been released at the border and died anyway. Afaik they were detained because they were trying to pursue claims of asylum and refused to go back to their native countries. Rather than release them, they were held until their claims could be vetted and adjudicated.
Also afaik the children fell into two groups - unaccompanied minors and those who came with their parents. We did not have the facilities to keep the families together. Maybe we should have.
Even ONE is not cool. Send the families to Mexico if you like, but don't just let them DIE. That entire policy was fucked up from the beginning. They were just trying to find work!
miss.a.p1600
01-15-2021, 09:40 AM
We could go on and on arguing cause and effect. I actually agree with you , in part, that Trump bears some responsibility for SOME of the violence.
However the storming of the Capitol was NOT Trump's idea and appears to have been planned for weeks without any impetus or input from Trump. The violence was actually occurring while Trump was speaking over a mile away. The fruits and nuts who attacked The Capitol did not need Trump's rhetoric to incite them. They were already excited and incited.
What Trump IS responsible for and which btw would have made a solid ground for a genuine good faith impeachment, were his ham fisted attempts to interfere with the Congressional tally of Electoral Votes. And arguably his attempts to pressure Georgia public officials to "find" him votes. Both clear violations of his oath to "preserve ,protect and defend the Constitution... " I also think his holding the rally in the first place had no legitimate purpose , was potentially inflammatory and ran counter to his Presidential Oath.
lol @ hamfisted
I know it’s a fig of speech but - i can totally see his ass with some extra large crusty n fleshy hands stuffed like a can of biscuits about to explode out of those creepy OJ Simpson isotoner gloves
Raziel
01-15-2021, 09:47 AM
However the storming of the Capitol was NOT Trump's idea and appears to have been planned for weeks without any impetus or input from Trump.
Look, no offense, man, but HE TOLD THEM TO GO THERE. And they did. It sure looks to me like that was his intent. Sure some Militant groups might have had plans, but how many do you think there were? That genius that stole Pelosi's Lecturn and was dumb enough to put it up on ebay, do you really think he was smart enough to come up with this shit? He sure looks like an Idiot to me. Some were, and had plans, but others were just led by the nose by Trump.
Plus, Trump's not that smart either.
Raziel
01-15-2021, 09:50 AM
Come on!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh3cbd7niTQ
miss.a.p1600
01-15-2021, 10:01 AM
^i think the problem is that rational people take that for what it is. Some random speech by some random dude.
Unstable people read between the lines AND take those words literally.
This is how Trump saves his own ass every time despite being the ultimate leader who is supposed to have more responsibility with what he says. He will say “oh I meant that figuratively speaking” so it’s not my responsibility that you tore up the capitol after listening to my speech.
The events of the past year or so especially so just how unstable a lot of American people really are. They don’t hide their true colors like they used to during PC times. The deviant behavior is on full display.
Raziel
01-15-2021, 10:06 AM
Their fucking nuts! Run in there and tear up the Capitol Building! All because their new Messiah told them to do it. What worries me is the real Militant Groups. Those guys are smarter. Notice how none of them got caught. Just a bunch of trailer park people.
Raziel
01-15-2021, 10:12 AM
BTW, just one last thing about that dipshit with the Lectern. The guy POSED FOR A FUCKING PICTURE as he was stealing stuff and then he PUTS THE GODDAMNED THING UP ON EBAY! What the fuck possesses these people. The prosecutor doesn't even need to offer you a deal, he's got you on camera.
Sorry I keep bringing him up, I just think he's the dumbest motherfucker on the planet! It's actually kinda funny, in a Schadenfreude sorta way (Pleasure from someone else's misfortune, if you didn't know).
Eric Stoner
01-15-2021, 10:18 AM
Look, no offense, man, but HE TOLD THEM TO GO THERE. And they did. It sure looks to me like that was his intent. Sure some Militant groups might have had plans, but how many do you think there were? That genius that stole Pelosi's Lecturn and was dumb enough to put it up on ebay, do you really think he was smart enough to come up with this shit? He sure looks like an Idiot to me. Some were, and had plans, but others were just led by the nose by Trump.
Plus, Trump's not that smart either.
A. the attackers were already there when Trump said B. go there "peacefully and patriotically ".
Eric Stoner
01-15-2021, 10:19 AM
^i think the problem is that rational people take that for what it is. Some random speech by some random dude.
Unstable people read between the lines AND take those words literally.
This is how Trump saves his own ass every time despite being the ultimate leader who is supposed to have more responsibility with what he says. He will say “oh I meant that figuratively speaking” so it’s not my responsibility that you tore up the capitol after listening to my speech.
The events of the past year or so especially so just how unstable a lot of American people really are. They don’t hide their true colors like they used to during PC times. The deviant behavior is on full display.
Again , there is some truth to what you say. Trump was irresponsible in his rhetoric.
Raziel
01-15-2021, 10:22 AM
A. the attackers were already there when Trump said B. go there "peacefully and patriotically ".
Do you really think he meant that? I don't. I think they knew just what he meant.
Go there and disrupt the counting of Electoral College votes.
But, whatever.
Eric Stoner
01-15-2021, 10:25 AM
There’s also two things about this which people were mindful of for the last four years but are likely going to have a bit of ‘memory hole’ with now…
1: that did not start with the Trump administration. One place where I agree with Herr Stoner here is regarding media bias. They highlighted the practice during that time, now they’ll be silent about it.
2: it will not end with the Biden administration. Not likely, anyhow. You just won’t be hearing about it on the evening news.
Excuse me. If you want to call me a Nazi then go ahead and take the consequences. Avoid the snide and oblique name-calling with stuff like "Herr Stoner". My worst critics and best sparring partners on this board have NEVER stooped that low. Eagle and others have never come close to calling me a Nazi , indirectly or otherwise. For one thing , I happen to be Irish - Italian. In fact I have a Corsican ancestor who was in America just before the American Revolution. More importantly, I have only attacked posts , ideas and the ideologies behind those with which which I disagree. Never the poster personally.
Eric Stoner
01-15-2021, 10:32 AM
Do you really think he meant that? I don't. I think they knew just what he meant.
Go there and disrupt the counting of Electoral College votes.
But, whatever.
No "Go there and demonstrate and be heard. " However , while not an incitement to violence it WAS an attempt to interfere with Constitutional processes.
His rally had no useful purpose. The mistake the Dems made was to focus on Trump's speech and the violent assault and try to claim that one caused the other. They would have been better off and made a far more credible and supportable case for impeachment ( that a number of Conservatives have agreed with ) by focusing on his attempted interference with Georgia's vote counting and the Congressional tally of Electoral votes. A number of Trump's supporters and defenders are on record that he went much too far and subjected himself to legitimate impeachment on those grounds.
eagle2
01-15-2021, 10:44 AM
We could go on and on arguing cause and effect. I actually agree with you , in part, that Trump bears some responsibility for SOME of the violence.
However the storming of the Capitol was NOT Trump's idea and appears to have been planned for weeks without any impetus or input from Trump. The violence was actually occurring while Trump was speaking over a mile away. The fruits and nuts who attacked The Capitol did not need Trump's rhetoric to incite them. They were already excited and incited.
What Trump IS responsible for and which btw would have made a solid ground for a genuine good faith impeachment, were his ham fisted attempts to interfere with the Congressional tally of Electoral Votes. And arguably his attempts to pressure Georgia public officials to "find" him votes. Both clear violations of his oath to "preserve ,protect and defend the Constitution... " I also think his holding the rally in the first place had no legitimate purpose , was potentially inflammatory and ran counter to his Presidential Oath.
Trump didn't just start to incite violence with his rally on 1/6. He had been doing it for months. During the presidential debate, in front of millions of people, Trump told the Proud Boys to "stand back and stand by". For the past two months he's been screaming at the top of his lungs that the election was stolen from him by the Democrats. Trump knew what was going to happen. A lawyer for one of the men arrested at the Capitol Building, said his client went there because Trump told him to. When he was at the White House watching what was going on, Trump was thrilled to see what was happening. When he finally came out and made a statement, he told the rioters, they are special and he loves them.
Raziel
01-15-2021, 10:53 AM
No "Go there and demonstrate and be heard. " However , while not an incitement to violence it WAS an attempt to interfere with Constitutional processes.
His rally had no useful purpose. The mistake the Dems made was to focus on Trump's speech and the violent assault and try to claim that one caused the other. They would have been better off and made a far more credible and supportable case for impeachment ( that a number of Conservatives have agreed with ) by focusing on his attempted interference with Georgia's vote counting and the Congressional tally of Electoral votes. A number of Trump's supporters and defenders are on record that he went much to far and subjected himself to legitimate impeachment on those grounds.
I don't know about Impeachment or not, he's got only five days left. The only thing they can be shooting for is the fourteenth amendment, barring him from ever running for office again. It's just that, if they impeach him, it's going to be after he's out of office, anyway. Just seems like a waste of money to me.
Why not just go straight for the fourteenth amendment?
Raziel
01-15-2021, 10:56 AM
No "Go there and demonstrate and be heard. " However , while not an incitement to violence it WAS an attempt to interfere with Constitutional processes.
His rally had no useful purpose. The mistake the Dems made was to focus on Trump's speech and the violent assault and try to claim that one caused the other. They would have been better off and made a far more credible and supportable case for impeachment ( that a number of Conservatives have agreed with ) by focusing on his attempted interference with Georgia's vote counting and the Congressional tally of Electoral votes. A number of Trump's supporters and defenders are on record that he went much to far and subjected himself to legitimate impeachment on those grounds.
Bro, they tore the place up. Is he that dumb that he didn't think that would happen?
Wait, i'm talking about Donald Trump... nevermind. He is that dumb.
Eric Stoner
01-15-2021, 11:08 AM
Trump didn't just start to incite violence with his rally on 1/6. He had been doing it for months. During the presidential debate, in front of millions of people, Trump told the Proud Boys to "stand back and stand by". For the past two months he's been screaming at the top of his lungs that the election was stolen from him by the Democrats. Trump knew what was going to happen. A lawyer for one of the men arrested at the Capitol Building, said his client went there because Trump told him to. When he was at the White House watching what was going on, Trump was thrilled to see what was happening. When he finally came out and made a statement, he told the rioters, they are special and he loves them.
All true. More or less. But your hatred for Trump has caused you to make too many leaps of logic. For instance , you'd have to be a mind reader to know what Trump was thinking , let alone prove that he "Knew what was going to happen". I think it is better to focus on what he ACTUALLY did and said and the fact that it had no legitimate purpose except to fire up his base ; show that he wasn't a quitter or a loser ; keep his supporters fired up etc. None of which was necessary. Some of which was potentially dangerous. As a matter of law that is not enough for anything criminal. But it MIGHT be for impeachment. Especially if the focus is put on his attempted interference intentionally or not , with a Constitutional process.
There is NO EVIDENCE that Trump directed or even suggested that anyone attack the Capitol. Or that he knew that was going to happen. There IS evidence that he tried to interfere with the Electoral Vote tally. THAT is impeachable.
Eric Stoner
01-15-2021, 11:10 AM
I don't know about Impeachment or not, he's got only five days left. The only thing they can be shooting for is the fourteenth amendment, barring him from ever running for office again. It's just that, if they impeach him, it's going to be after he's out of office, anyway. Just seems like a waste of money to me.
Why not just go straight for the fourteenth amendment?
That is actually a serious issue. An argument has been made by several Constitutional Law professors and scholars to do just that.
Raziel
01-15-2021, 11:25 AM
All true. More or less. But your hatred for Trump has caused you to make too many leaps of logic. For instance , you'd have to be a mind reader to know what Trump was thinking , let alone prove that he "Knew what was going to happen". I think it is better to focus on what he ACTUALLY did and said and the fact that it had no legitimate purpose except to fire up his base ; show that he wasn't a quitter or a loser ; keep his supporters fired up etc. None of which was necessary. Some of which was potentially dangerous. As a matter of law that is not enough for anything criminal. But it MIGHT be for impeachment. Especially if the focus is put on his attempted interference intentionally or not , with a Constitutional process.
There is NO EVIDENCE that Trump directed or even suggested that anyone attack the Capitol. Or that he knew that was going to happen. There IS evidence that he tried to interfere with the Electoral Vote tally. THAT is impeachable.
How can you say there is no evidence he wanted them to attack, He told them he was gonna go with them and he didn't. The guy went back to the White House. They say he was beaming and gleeful in the White House watching this nonsense. This shit really sounds to me like they were doing just what he intended.
I mean, half these folks were Qanon followers, who are not exactly the brightest bulbs in the box. VERY easily manipulated.
Eric Stoner
01-15-2021, 12:07 PM
How can you say there is no evidence he wanted them to attack, He told them he was gonna go with them and he didn't. The guy went back to the White House. They say he was beaming and gleeful in the White House watching this nonsense. This shit really sounds to me like they were doing just what he intended.
I mean, half these folks were Qanon followers, who are not exactly the brightest bulbs in the box. VERY easily manipulated.
I have to agree with you about QAnon. They are a dangerous bunch of Fruit Loops.
AChildOfBoredom
01-15-2021, 02:57 PM
Excuse me. If you want to call me a Nazi then go ahead and take the consequences. Avoid the snide and oblique name-calling with stuff like "Herr Stoner". My worst critics and best sparring partners on this board have NEVER stooped that low. Eagle and others have never come close to calling me a Nazi , indirectly or otherwise. For one thing , I happen to be Irish - Italian. In fact I have a Corsican ancestor who was in America just before the American Revolution. More importantly, I have only attacked posts , ideas and the ideologies behind those with which which I disagree. Never the poster personally.
If I was going to call you a Nazi, you can rest assured there would be no ambiguity about it.
Djoser
01-15-2021, 03:17 PM
Probably a good idea to avoid using titles like 'Herr...' then ;D (Not meaning to single you out there's been plenty of back and forth from both sides).
Again, we are supposed to simply shut this stuff down, but it seems to me that current events transcend the normal strict 'No Poliitics' rule.
Please, everyone try to be respectful of each other.
Raziel
01-15-2021, 05:23 PM
Even ONE is not cool. Send the families to Mexico if you like, but don't just let them DIE. That entire policy was fucked up from the beginning. They were just trying to find work!
There needs to be some sort of program, where during Orange picking season, or when the Chickens all grow up, or something, People from Latin America are actually INVITED here to do that job and get paid for it. Americans don't want to do it. You work in a slaughterhouse, you come home covered in Chicken Shit every day. Americans hate that, but folks from Latin America will happily do it if it gets them some money. That way they can be here legally, do the jobs we don't wanna do, and get PAID. Everybody wins! We get Oranges and Chicken and they get cash!
One slaughterhouse in Illinois had a bunch of protesters crying about the "illegal immigrants" that worked there. They got rid of all the Illegals. Hired a bunch of Americans. Three weeks later NOBODY worked at this Slaughterhouse. They didn't have any employees at all. Everybody was out of a job. Go home every day covered in Chicken Shit, sooner or later you'll be filling out job applications. Go somewhere else. It's SOUL crunching.
Hey Djoser, I agree with you. I've been cool with Eric, he actually makes it pretty easy to do. I don't agree with him on everything, but that's OK. (BTW, I know where you got your name. Ruler of Egypt.).
eagle2
01-15-2021, 05:44 PM
Nobody intended those children to die. A few died who were very sick to begin with ALTHOUGH the medical care was not optimal. They could have been released at the border and died anyway. Afaik they were detained because they were trying to pursue claims of asylum and refused to go back to their native countries. Rather than release them, they were held until their claims could be vetted and adjudicated.
Also afaik the children fell into two groups - unaccompanied minors and those who came with their parents. We did not have the facilities to keep the families together. Maybe we should have.
The conditions of these detention centers were horrific. They were overcrowded, lice infested, with outbreaks of influenza, mumps, and chicken pox; because detainees weren't vaccinated. They weren't even provided with soap or toothbrushes.
Trump is the one who made the decision to bring criminal charges against everyone who entered the country illegally, with his zero tolerance policy, which is why the detention centers became so overcrowded, and which is why small children were forcibly removed from their parents. Obama and Bush treated illegal entry as a civil offense. There are organizations that find places for these people to stay and ensure they arrive in court for their hearings. Trump wanted all of them to be put in detention centers, when we didn't have the proper resources to properly take care of them.
eagle2
01-15-2021, 06:30 PM
Looks like Trump found an alternative to Twitter. LOL!
https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/deranged-trump-orders-eric-and-don-jr-to-hand-out-flyers-with-his-tweets-on-them
AChildOfBoredom
01-15-2021, 06:33 PM
Probably a good idea to avoid using titles like 'Herr...' then ;D (Not meaning to single you out there's been plenty of back and forth from both sides).
Again, we are supposed to simply shut this stuff down, but it seems to me that current events transcend the normal strict 'No Poliitics' rule.
Please, everyone try to be respectful of each other.
My first language was a dialect of Plautdietsch - Low German. I didn’t use the term to sling mud, I used it because I’m still on the habit of using it.
And again, if I were going to call someone a Nazi, there would be no ambiguity about it. Unlike some, if I take issue with someone to the point I feel a need to confront them, I won’t subtly ‘throw shade’ at them - I am much more direct.