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Angela888
04-06-2021, 08:39 AM
Well this is completely wrong Bill Gates has done more for the global poor than any other philanthropist out there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Melinda_Gates_Foundation#Global_developme nt_division

The CDC is a federal agency, its like saying you don't trust NPR because they take donations, they are still controlled by the government.

In short this is getting too conspiratorial for a science thread.

sorry I don’t trust the goverment anywhere! Look what they did in Iraq, making up weapons of mass destruction, bombing innocent people and it all came out they were lying. I think you are in very dicey water trusting the goverment who ultimately don’t care about the average person on the street x

DeathAndTaxes
04-06-2021, 08:49 AM
sorry I don’t trust the goverment anywhere! Look what they did in Iraq, making up weapons of mass destruction, bombing innocent people and it all came out they were lying. I think you are in very dicey water trusting the goverment who ultimately don’t care about the average person on the street x

I trust scientists, you are using ad hominems like Bill Gates (Which is a conspiracy theory), and where the CDC gets its funding.

Angela888
04-06-2021, 08:57 AM
I trust scientists, you are using ad hominems like Bill Gates (Which is a conspiracy theory), and where the CDC gets its funding.

It’s not a conspiracy theory it’s actual fact if you look in places he’s not funding and controlling the media outlet. Ultimately we all want the same thing which is health and happiness but sorry I’ll never trust a man like bill gates from what I know he and his foundation is responsible for abroad. I’ve done my research, I’ve taken the time to listen, read and digest and personally I find it all pretty gross. You believe what you believe and I believe what I do . I hope you are right and we can trust these people however I don’t think so xx

rickdugan
04-06-2021, 09:28 AM
The reality is that the scientific community is all over the map on what is necessary and what is not. It seems that most people are picking whichever "science" is the most emotionally satisfying for them. The problem with the CDC, in both administrations, is that it's "science" has been entirely too fluid and driven by the political needs of the executive branch. This sudden shift from 6 feet to 3 feet distances in schools, conveniently when the current administration needed help in getting urban schools reopened, is one case in point. The CDC has also become a little zany recently, most notably with an entirely unrealistic double mask recommendations, like people don't need to breathe too.

Sometimes a little common sense is needed when parsing through all of this stuff.

DeathAndTaxes
04-06-2021, 09:38 AM
Sometimes a little common sense is needed when parsing through all of this stuff.

No, the definition of common sense might as well be "let your internal biases dictate behavior"

Hard Science (which immunology is) is king, it is unbiased, empirical, logical, reproducible. Its only downside is that it is slow and for good reason. People that complain about flip flopping simply do not understand science.

Let us not even speak about the "common sense" of drinking fish tank cleaner and injecting bleach.

rickdugan
04-06-2021, 09:47 AM
No, the definition of common sense might as well be "let your internal biases dictate behavior"

Hard Science (which immunology is) is king, it is unbiased, empirical, logical, reproducible. Its only downside is that it is slow and for good reason. People that complain about flip flopping simply do not understand science.

Let us not even speak about the "common sense" of drinking fish tank cleaner and injecting bleach.

Internal biases are already dictating these decisions. If they weren't, schools would already be open everywhere. If they weren't, we wouldn't hear endless panicky squeals about almost no-risk young people still getting the virus even when our high risk population is largely vaccinated. I could go on.

The problem is not the science, it is how the "science" is being interpreted by people who have broader agendas.

DeathAndTaxes
04-06-2021, 09:51 AM
The problem is not the science, it is how the "science" is being interpreted by people who have broader agendas.

No such problem when you read the scientific papers directly.

rickdugan
04-06-2021, 10:09 AM
No such problem when you read the scientific papers directly.

You mean like the recent analysis conducted by one of the country's top infectious disease experts indicating that, due to existing population exposure to COVID combined with current vaccination efforts, that we might actually have some level of herd immunity by the end of April?

Or do you mean the multiple studies, both domestic and abroad, supporting the conclusion that schools are not major vectors of COVID transmission?

Or of course perhaps you were referring to the early studies indicating that 2 million or more Americans would die from COVID?

I could go on, but you get the picture.

Oh, and anyone who reads a scientific paper without gaining clarity on the subjective elements to the study, such as estimates used, population sampling techniques, etc., is also missing out on whatever inherent biases may exist in the results. The product is only as good as the inputs and all too many supposed hard data analyses have turned out to be crap where COVID has been concerned.

Seatortuga
04-06-2021, 10:14 AM
For what it's worth, I've had both my shots and I'm doing just fine. I am terrified of the variants. The brazilian variant, P1, is quite disconcerting.

Vyanka
04-06-2021, 10:21 AM
For what it's worth, I've had both my shots and I'm doing just fine. I am terrified of the variants. The brazilian variant, P1, is quite disconcerting.

Same. Look how overwhelmed Brazil is. A 22 yr old died very quick. No chances...

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/brazil-crisis-covid-19-rages-country-reporters-notebook/story?id=76878561&__twitter_impression=true

Seatortuga
04-06-2021, 10:32 AM
It is imperative to get vaccinated and continue to wear masks and social distancing. I'm tired of this sh*t.

DeathAndTaxes
04-06-2021, 11:53 AM
You mean like the recent analysis conducted by one of the country's top infectious disease experts indicating that, due to existing population exposure to COVID combined with current vaccination efforts, that we might actually have some level of herd immunity by the end of April?

Or do you mean the multiple studies, both domestic and abroad, supporting the conclusion that schools are not major vectors of COVID transmission?

Or of course perhaps you were referring to the early studies indicating that 2 million or more Americans would die from COVID?

I could go on, but you get the picture.

Oh, and anyone who reads a scientific paper without gaining clarity on the subjective elements to the study, such as estimates used, population sampling techniques, etc., is also missing out on whatever inherent biases may exist in the results. The product is only as good as the inputs and all too many supposed hard data analyses have turned out to be crap where COVID has been concerned.

Link to those papers if you want I can give you a direct link to the one about vaccines creating immunity.

Also you are confusing predictive analysis with hard science. Predicting human behavior (herd immunity and children being vectors) is social science.

eagle2
04-06-2021, 12:20 PM
The reality is that the scientific community is all over the map on what is necessary and what is not. It seems that most people are picking whichever "science" is the most emotionally satisfying for them. The problem with the CDC, in both administrations, is that it's "science" has been entirely too fluid and driven by the political needs of the executive branch. This sudden shift from 6 feet to 3 feet distances in schools, conveniently when the current administration needed help in getting urban schools reopened, is one case in point. The CDC has also become a little zany recently, most notably with an entirely unrealistic double mask recommendations, like people don't need to breathe too.

Sometimes a little common sense is needed when parsing through all of this stuff.

The "3 feet" distancing is only if everyone is wearing masks and it is still 6 feet in communities with high transmission rates.

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0319-new-evidence-classroom-physical-distance.html

eagle2
04-06-2021, 12:23 PM
Or of course perhaps you were referring to the early studies indicating that 2 million or more Americans would die from COVID?


The 2 million estimate, was if we didn't take any measures to prevent the virus from spreading. We've still had approximately 570,000 deaths, even with the measures we did take. Other countries that took stronger measures had much lower death rates.

eagle2
04-06-2021, 02:12 PM
His Patient Refused the Vaccine. She Died of COVID in the ICU.

From: (subscription required)
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-all-white-covid-chest-x-rays-this-icu-nurse-is-dreading-after-easter

I have two sets of husbands and wives that died in the last week and a half, right in beds next to each other. I think in both families, the children infected them. None of the patients had been vaccinated. They either had not yet been able to get a shot or they had declined the opportunity. One clerical worker in her 50s had been given the chance but refused and ended up in the ICU with COVID-19. The woman’s chest X-ray looked like a white sheet of paper, something increasingly common among recent patients. "The worst chest X-rays I’ve ever seen in my life,” Haacke said. “Some of these X-rays, with an untrained eye you wouldn’t know there’s a lung that exists in there.” The ICU team decided the woman’s best chance was extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO), where a machine pumps and oxygenates the blood outside the body. We tried to send her out Friday to put her on ECMO, but they didn’t have any beds available,” Haacke said. “It’s been that way.” On Monday afternoon, the woman took a turn from bad to worse. Haacke and his team spent two hours doing everything they could. Her husband and daughter arrived and were able to say their goodbyes. Then it was over for the woman as it was over for 270 Americans the day before, as it has been over for more than 550,000 of us since the pandemic began. “The daughter was carried out, physically lifted and carried out because she was so hysterical,” Haacke reported. “Jesus Christ, this is awful. Other patients with white-out X-rays include a patient in his mid-thirties. “He’s expected to not do well,” Haacke said. Even if such a patient does survive, his lungs may be hopelessly scarred and damaged. “At that point, you’re looking at a lung transplant,” Haacke said. In general, Haacke noted, the new patients are “younger and sicker.” He suspects one or more variants are responsible. “I’m convinced there’s something going on,” he said. “We just don’t have the data to prove it right now.” But even if they had proof, it would not change much. “We can’t do anything differently anyway,” Haacke said. What could change everything in the COVID-19 fight would be if we all did things differently in our everyday lives. Anti-mask Republican governors such as Kristi Noem of South Dakota have been rightly condemned for placing politics over science while thousands died. But an increasing number of governors who started out heeding science are now putting politics first, reopening everything from restaurants to sports arenas to gyms despite warnings from medical experts. They include Democrats Andrew Cuomo of New York, where cases are up 41 percent in the last two weeks, and Phil Murphy of New Jersey, where cases are up 20 percent in the same period. There is also relatively moderate Republican Larry Hogan of Maryland, where cases have jumped 41 percent in two weeks.

rickdugan
04-06-2021, 02:33 PM
The 2 million estimate, was if we didn't take any measures to prevent the virus from spreading. We've still had approximately 570,000 deaths, even with the measures we did take. Other countries that took stronger measures had much lower death rates.

That 2 million estimate also assumed that (1) 81% of the population would be infected (absurd); and (2) nobody would do anything whatsoever differently, even things as simple as avoiding crowds, washing hands and sanitizing more frequently. And that was my point: Studies and estimates are only as good as the ASSumptions that go into them. The press ran with that absurd number for weeks.

And speaking of assumptions, how many times are you going to repeat your theory, in thread after thread, that our politicians could have done something more drastic sooner that would have made a material difference? Do you think that if you just say it enough times that it will make it more true? We have had this debate ad nauseum and there are an infinite number of factors and governmental limitations here that don't exist in many of those other countries. It's the reason that I don't blame NYC officials for encouraging people to go to Chinatown during Chinese New Year, which was probably the epicenter of the initial outbreak in NYC.

DeathAndTaxes
04-06-2021, 02:56 PM
I mean the nihilist attitude will only get you so far, I mean it is obvious that if you add a infectious disease + an entitlement attitude of hating the elites and conflating them with scientists + irresponsible leadership meant that we are 3 times the original 200k estimate? remember that one?


Fauci said the 100,000-to-200,000 death figure is a middle-of-the-road estimate, much lower than worse-case-scenario predictions.

He said preparing for 1 million to 2 million Americans to die from the coronavirus is "almost certainly off the chart," adding: "Now it's not impossible, but very, very unlikely."

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/03/29/823517467/fauci-estimates-that-100-000-to-200-000-americans-could-die-from-the-coronavirus

This was said exactly a year ago, well Trump made it that 3x as bad, and trying to divert attention to the 2 million figure is 100% pure fallacy

Again putting a hard stop on this because it is freaking useless back and forth argument, what happened happened, it was clearly DJTs fault and we can only fix this colossal hole he and others like him (Bolsonaro) dug.

Eric Stoner
04-07-2021, 08:35 AM
That 2 million estimate also assumed that (1) 81% of the population would be infected (absurd); and (2) nobody would do anything whatsoever differently, even things as simple as avoiding crowds, washing hands and sanitizing more frequently. And that was my point: Studies and estimates are only as good as the ASSumptions that go into them. The press ran with that absurd number for weeks.

And speaking of assumptions, how many times are you going to repeat your theory, in thread after thread, that our politicians could have done something more drastic sooner that would have made a material difference? Do you think that if you just say it enough times that it will make it more true? We have had this debate ad nauseum and there are an infinite number of factors and governmental limitations here that don't exist in many of those other countries. It's the reason that I don't blame NYC officials for encouraging people to go to Chinatown during Chinese New Year, which was probably the epicenter of the initial outbreak in NYC.

There were some things that could have been done sooner.
Trump downplayed mask wearing and let himself be ridiculed for suggesting internal disinfecting ( a valid therapy ) which he fumfered into letting people think he was advocating ingestion of disinfectants.
It wasn't Trump who mandated admission of infected people into nursing homes. It was Cuomo and Murphy.
A big part of the problem was and is Fauci. As I have posted before his pronouncements were all over the map : "no need for masks" eventually morphed to "wear two masks " , "OK to take a cruise " ; "date anonymously " have morphed to "stay away from anyone and everyone" EVEN IF you are vaccinated ! His figures for what constitutes "herd immunity " keep changing. It started at around 50% and is now 85% and Fauci has ADMITTED he has played with the numbers. He has downplayed successful therapies like hydroxychloroquine . He said that vaccines were two and even three years away and dozens of other examples where he was talking out of his ass just as much as Trump ever did. Is it any surprise that there is so much skepticism over what the CDC says now ?
Encouraging people to go to Chinatown , at the time, was a PC attempt to defuse anti-Chinese bias. It was a terrible idea at the time but illustrates how slow footed a LOT of people at EVERY layer and level of governments were in responding to Covid AT THE TIME.

Raziel
04-07-2021, 03:17 PM
Trump downplayed mask wearing and let himself be ridiculed for suggesting internal disinfecting ( a valid therapy )

Dude BLEACH? BLEACH is a valid Therapy? Disinfectant? Come on. That shit'll kill you. You need to listen to the fucking Doctors and not run off at the mouth when you don't know what you're talking about (BTW, I mean Trump, not you personally). If anything like that was a valid therapy don't you think the Doctors would have used it by now? Did you see Deborah Birx FACE when he said that? And she was one of his sycophants! And he directly asked her, and she sat there like a STONE!

Raziel
04-07-2021, 03:20 PM
Pardon me, Dr. Deborah Birx was the Coronavirus Task Force chair. My mistake, I didn't clarify.

rickdugan
04-07-2021, 07:11 PM
Again putting a hard stop on this because it is freaking useless back and forth argument, what happened happened, it was clearly DJTs fault and we can only fix this colossal hole he and others like him (Bolsonaro) dug.

Oh clearly. If only a politician had stopped an invisible highly contagious virus that we now know was in the country long before we realized it was a serious threat, everything would be just fine now. Can't argue with that logic. ;)

CFMNH44
04-08-2021, 04:30 AM
Trump's 'style' did not help. The Federal Government not only told states "They were on their own", but fought against them.

Early on the federal government advised against wearing masks, 'so that there would be adequate supply for first responders and medical'. The feds commandeered (i.e. stole shipments) from State governments. Massachusetts was only able to get a supply after coming up with a plan to use Patriot's owner Bob Craft's Jet to get a shipment of masks from China. Secrecy, MA State Police and the National Guard were used to prevent theft that happened to a previous shipment.



https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/02/us/coronavirus-patriots-plane-masks-spt-trnd/index.html

Raziel
04-08-2021, 06:07 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHkzqejFKbM

This has got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

This guy wanted you to stick an Ultraviolet light up your asshole. Unbelievable!

Eric Stoner
04-08-2021, 08:29 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHkzqejFKbM

This has got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

This guy wanted you to stick an Ultraviolet light up your asshole. Unbelievable!

I have posted on this before. There is no doubt that Trump was careless in his language BUT he NEVER advocated ingesting bleach or other disinfectants. In his clumsy , uneducated and half baked way he WAS talking about chemical therapies. Of which there are a LOT in medicine to treat a host of diseases and conditions. All the way from microbicides to treat dysentery to chemotherapy to treat cancer and other diseases. One of the first chemotherapies was developed by Dr. Ehrlich to treat syphilis. He used a less toxic form of an arsenic based drug called Salvarsan. Ultraviolet light IS used to treat infections . Even internally.

The problem was compounded by Trump's pathological inability to admit error. He could have and should have taken a step back and deferred to medical experts but Noooooooo ! He tried to say he was being sarcastic. Not ! He could have made it clear he did not want anyone self treating with bleach or anything else. But Noooooooo ! He couldn't do that either.

DeathAndTaxes
04-08-2021, 09:58 AM
BUT he NEVER advocated ingesting bleach or other disinfectants

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-suggests-injection-disinfectant-beat-coronavirus-clean-lungs-n1191216

"Then I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, in one minute, and is there a way we can do something like that? injection inside, almost like a cleaning'

BTW the whole context was that doctors were talking 5-10 minutes before about bleach disinfectant and killing the virus on surfaces, so pea brain whinged his grand solution to the epidemic in a total of 5-10 mins, and opened his mouth.

DJT is the world's biggest loudmouth idiot, do you honestly hate liberals that much that you are willing to bat for him beyond all reason?

Raziel
04-08-2021, 11:13 AM
I have posted on this before. There is no doubt that Trump was careless in his language BUT he NEVER advocated ingesting bleach or other disinfectants. In his clumsy , uneducated and half baked way he WAS talking about chemical therapies. Of which there are a LOT in medicine to treat a host of diseases and conditions. All the way from microbicides to treat dysentery to chemotherapy to treat cancer and other diseases. One of the first chemotherapies was developed by Dr. Ehrlich to treat syphilis. He used a less toxic form of an arsenic based drug called Salvarsan. Ultraviolet light IS used to treat infections . Even internally.

The problem was compounded by Trump's pathological inability to admit error. He could have and should have taken a step back and deferred to medical experts but Noooooooo ! He tried to say he was being sarcastic. Not ! He could have made it clear he did not want anyone self treating with bleach or anything else. But Noooooooo ! He couldn't do that either.

Ok. Look, I'm sick of politics after last year, so we'll have to agree to disagree. It still astounds me that a real person can be that stupid. He wasn't talking about Chemical Therapy, he was talking about shooting up Lysol and sticking a lightbulb up your butt.

Eric Stoner
04-08-2021, 11:29 AM
Ok. Look, I'm sick of politics after last year, so we'll have to agree to disagree. It still astounds me that a real person can be that stupid. He wasn't talking about Chemical Therapy, he was talking about shooting up Lysol and sticking a lightbulb up your butt.

No he was NOT ! What he DID say has been posted all over the net. Dumb ? Half-baked ? Sloppy and careless ? All of the above. But he NEVER said : ' Drink bleach " or " use UV light on yourself ."
I admit I don't get it. What he DID say was bad enough. There is no need to exaggerate it.

Eric Stoner
04-08-2021, 11:37 AM
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-suggests-injection-disinfectant-beat-coronavirus-clean-lungs-n1191216

"Then I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, in one minute, and is there a way we can do something like that? injection inside, almost like a cleaning'

BTW the whole context was that doctors were talking 5-10 minutes before about bleach disinfectant and killing the virus on surfaces, so pea brain whinged his grand solution to the epidemic in a total of 5-10 mins, and opened his mouth.

DJT is the world's biggest loudmouth idiot, do you honestly hate liberals that much that you are willing to bat for him beyond all reason?

Thank you for the accurate quote. Including : " ... IS there a way we can do something like that ? Injection inside, almost like a cleaning ." You did see that it was phrased as a QUESTION ? an inquiry ?
As I have posted there are numerous similar therapies in medicine. It is often a question of how much, administered how , over what period of time , for what reason ? It is NOT as loony as some would like to think and have others think. Were it so then a host of therapies and chemical agents would be wiped from the medical books and literature.

Raziel
04-08-2021, 12:16 PM
he was talking about shooting up Lysol and sticking a lightbulb up your butt.

Calm down, I was being facetious. I make very short posts, you know that. Trump needed to actively listen to the doctors. But he didn't. Now we have a different President and we're ALL going to get it on or shortly after April 19th. And Trump had zero to do with this, he left it all to the states.

eagle2
04-08-2021, 12:30 PM
Oh clearly. If only a politician had stopped an invisible highly contagious virus that we now know was in the country long before we realized it was a serious threat, everything would be just fine now. Can't argue with that logic. ;)

Please stop with your gaslighting. Politicians in Japan, South Korea, New Zealand, Taiwan, Vietnam, Australia, Finland, Singapore, and Norway all were able to stop "an invisible highly contagious virus" before it caused the massive carnage that it did in the US. Also, please stop turning every thread into a political argument and defending the fictitious argument that we somehow couldn't have done better than the more than 570,000 Americans dead. It's obvious to everyone in the reality-based world we could have done much better if our president took the necessary measures to prevent the virus from spreading, instead of opposing them. Leaders of other countries knew what to do. Your above comment has nothing to do with the subject of this discussion.

rickdugan
04-08-2021, 12:37 PM
Now we have a different President and we're ALL going to get it on or shortly after April 19th. And Trump had zero to do with this, he left it all to the states.

Ummm, did Biden invent the Internet too? :D

I say that because he's really doing little more than riding the coattails of the previous administration. Operation Warp Speed happened under the previous watch, as did initial federal contracts for 800 million vaccine doses. The prior administration also readjusted its orders to focus on the two (at the time) approved vaccines. Everything that has happened since, including more approved versions and additional order adjustments for those additional approved versions, are all just a natural result of what was put in place long before Biden took the job.

Raziel
04-08-2021, 01:13 PM
Ummm, did Biden invent the Internet too? :D

I say that because he's really doing little more than riding the coattails of the previous administration. Operation Warp Speed happened under the previous watch, as did initial federal contracts for 800 million vaccine doses. The prior administration also readjusted its orders to focus on the two (at the time) approved vaccines. Everything that has happened since, including more approved versions and additional order adjustments for those additional approved versions, are all just a natural result of what was put in place long before Biden took the job.

Rick, the last administration was completely ineffective. They left it strictly to the states, and that didn't work. Biden is on a different route. Now look, I'm not all that into Biden, either (I like the guy, and I think he's MILES better than Trump). Rick, Trump didn't do shit about this for almost a YEAR!

And, of course he didn't invent the internet. The Internet started as ARPANET in the late 70's, a connection between four Universities (University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA), The Augmentation Research Center at Stanford Research Institute (now SRI International), University of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB), and The University of Utah School of Computing. Don't be silly. :P

rickdugan
04-08-2021, 01:37 PM
Rick, the last administration was completely ineffective. They left it strictly to the states, and that didn't work. Biden is on a different route. Now look, I'm not all that into Biden, either (I like the guy, and I think he's MILES better than Trump). Rick, Trump didn't do shit about this for almost a YEAR!

Au contraire Raziel. Like him or not, the vaccine rollout is a direct result of the previous administration's efforts, including Operation Warp Speed and the initial vaccine orders. The current administration is simply the beneficiary of those efforts.

As far as "leaving it up to the states", what has Biden really done differently? Did he attempt to institute a national mask mandate or try to put in place any national business restrictions? No, because he is as constrained by the Constitution as Trump was. Like it or not, power is decentralized here in the USA. Any power not explicitly granted to the federal government by the Constitution is solely the province of the individual states.

kamiliam
04-08-2021, 01:56 PM
Rick this is ridiculous, we all lived through and saw the pandemic unfold. Any president should have survived this efficiently because as you mentioned we have all these systems in place. Trump managed to fuck that up, he probably would have won re-election if he hadn’t. I have no doubt he would have done the same if he won re-election, messed it all up all while making himself a profit. The only people who believe your narrative live in a conservative media bubble. People have eyes and this is a unsubstantiated argument just to be partisan.

I am very critical of Biden but he has done a better job then I hoped on this one issue. This isn’t even the topic of this thread and I don’t understand why we have to go back to the same argument every time we try to be adults and talk about the real world.

Raziel
04-08-2021, 02:06 PM
Au contraire Raziel. Like him or not, the vaccine rollout is a direct result of the previous administration's efforts, including Operation Warp Speed and the initial vaccine orders. The current administration is simply the beneficiary of those efforts.

Part of it is, but Trump never utilized it. Operation Warp Speed was a JOKE under Trump.


As far as "leaving it up to the states", what has Biden really done differently? Did he attempt to institute a national mask mandate or try to put in place any national business restrictions? No, because he is as constrained by the Constitution as Trump was. Like it or not, power is decentralized here in the USA. Any power not explicitly granted to the federal government by the Constitution is solely the province of the individual states.

Exactly what is he supposed to do? He got left a dog's dinner. A mask madidate is THE JOB of the states, as many of them weren't in trouble. If your state is getting fucked up by the virus, you need a mask mandate, if it's not It's up to you. Vaccines are the job of the federal government. I live in Missouri, Missouri can't create Vaccines.

I realize this isn't very coincident, but I'm kinda on a time limit, here.

rickdugan
04-09-2021, 03:20 AM
Ladies and gents, I understand that some people have such a visceral dislike for the previous President that they will never give him credit for anything. But the reality is that the vaccine was developed in a year, rather than 10 (more normal timeframe), under his watch. As goofy as the name sounded, it involved additional funding to drug companies, partnerships between civilian and military scientists, and overall a massive expenditure of government resources, including manpower. By the time Biden arrived, the heavy lifting was already done. Even vaccine funding and distribution channels were figured out long before Biden arrived.

Anyway, this thread was supposed to be about individual life after vaccinations, so I am going to leave off here.

GlamLifter
04-09-2021, 06:55 AM
Ladies and gents, I understand that some people have such a visceral dislike for the previous President that they will never give him credit for anything. But the reality is that the vaccine was developed in a year, rather than 10 (more normal timeframe), under his watch.

So has non-US developed vaccines ;)

dpacrkk
04-09-2021, 06:58 AM
Ladies and gents, I understand that some people have such a visceral dislike for the previous President that they will never give him credit for anything. But the reality is that the vaccine was developed in a year, rather than 10 (more normal timeframe), under his watch. As goofy as the name sounded, it involved additional funding to drug companies, partnerships between civilian and military scientists, and overall a massive expenditure of government resources, including manpower. By the time Biden arrived, the heavy lifting was already done. Even vaccine funding and distribution channels were figured out long before Biden arrived.

Anyway, this thread was supposed to be about individual life after vaccinations, so I am going to leave off here.

Gents, I understand that some people have such a fawning adoration for the previous president and that they will give him credit for anything positive and absolve his responsibility for anything negative. But the reality is that a vaccine was developed in Germany without any assistance from the US ('Murica First, right?). In addition to its goofy name, no funding went to BioNTech nor some other companies that developed other COVID-19 vaccines, and Pfizer filed for emergency use authorization independently, getting approved within weeks for a process that takes months, i.e. none of it takes years. Vaccine funding and distribution channels were significantly improved after Biden arrived: there was no rollout plan when he took office, he oversaw a much larger increase in the purchase of doses, and those doses being distributed directly to pharmacies. Then of course, there's the whole thing where he didn't downplay and ignore the dangers of COVID-19, nor seek credit now in 2021 despite not any taking responsibility in 2020; that was a certain someone else.

DeathAndTaxes
04-09-2021, 07:02 AM
So has non-US developed vaccines ;)

Exactly, in science there is such a thing called a control group, non-US developed vaccines are that control group and their speed and efficacy are identical to the ones warp speed was supposed to develop "quicker and better"

That said we now need vaccines developed even quicker so that we can get back to normal at this rate.

Eric Stoner
04-09-2021, 08:26 AM
Gents, I understand that some people have such a fawning adoration for the previous president and that they will give him credit for anything positive and absolve his responsibility for anything negative. But the reality is that a vaccine was developed in Germany without any assistance from the US ('Murica First, right?). In addition to its goofy name, no funding went to BioNTech nor some other companies that developed other COVID-19 vaccines, and Pfizer filed for emergency use authorization independently, getting approved within weeks for a process that takes months, i.e. none of it takes years. Vaccine funding and distribution channels were significantly improved after Biden arrived: there was no rollout plan when he took office, he oversaw a much larger increase in the purchase of doses, and those doses being distributed directly to pharmacies. Then of course, there's the whole thing where he didn't downplay and ignore the dangers of COVID-19, nor seek credit now in 2021 despite not any taking responsibility in 2020; that was a certain someone else.

As Sam Goldwyn supposedly said : "Include me out." I have frequently posted critiques of Trump and expressed dislike for him on numerous levels : As a POTUS and as a person. That said I have also given him credit for things done right and tried to counter UNFAIR criticism of him with FACTS.

To date, there is nothing Biden has done on Covid that was not already being done under Trump. Nothing, zip, zero , nada . Except for adopting a national mask fetish that is of doubtful efficacy. Bandanas do not work at all ; surgical masks are about 50 % effective and the N95 mask is about 85-90 % effective. Face shields do work especially when it comes to the wearer not spreading Covid but strangely a lot of cities and places do not regard them as highly as masks. And they chirp the loudest about "following the science".

We have posted numerous times that Florida and Texas ( with much larger populations than all but one of the following) had much lower death rates and healthier economies that absolutist shut down states like N.Y. , N.J. , Pa. , Illinois and California . The big difference was that Florida was more aggressive in protecting the elderly AND did not waste doses of vaccine. At inoculation sites if any was left over it went into any available arm.

The criticism of Trump was amplified by Bob Woodward's book where he claimed Trump knew back in February , 2020 how dangerous Covid was. If true , why didn't Woodward say anything to anyone until months later ? Why didn't he sound the alarm ?

Fauci hasn't gotten any smarter since Biden took office. He has continued his pattern of never ending change in his analyses, proscriptions, prescriptions and predictions. The only certainty with him is that he will say something different about Covid that varies from or contradicts what he has said previously. Would anyone of us not have gotten frustrated with Fauci if his positions and advice changed as often as his did ?

Eric Stoner
04-09-2021, 08:35 AM
So has non-US developed vaccines ;)

If these foreign vaccines are so great WHY aren't they being injected into European arms. The only one I know is the Astra Zeneca vaccine. It is unclear whether the blood clot problem is a side effect of the vaccine OR it is appearing only in people already infected with Covid. One strange effect of Covid is that it causes blood clots in some patients. The fact is that Europe is far behind us, the British and the Israelis in vaccinating. They do not have enough doses.

dpacrkk
04-09-2021, 08:39 AM
I have frequently posted critiques of Trump and expressed dislike for him on numerous levels : As a POTUS and as a person.

Citation needed, particularly on the POTUS part.


That said I have also given him credit for things done right and tried to counter UNFAIR criticism of him with FACTS.

To date, there is nothing Biden has done on Covid that was not already being done under Trump. Nothing, zip, zero , nada .

Not that the "hyuck hyuck fake news" crowd will read, but here it is again:


Vaccine funding and distribution channels were significantly improved after Biden arrived: there was no rollout plan when he took office, he oversaw a much larger increase in the purchase of doses, and those doses being distributed directly to pharmacies. Then of course, there's the whole thing where he didn't downplay and ignore the dangers of COVID-19, nor seek credit now in 2021 despite not any taking responsibility in 2020; that was a certain someone else.

Eric Stoner
04-09-2021, 08:41 AM
Part of it is, but Trump never utilized it. Operation Warp Speed was a JOKE under Trump.



Exactly what is he supposed to do? He got left a dog's dinner. A mask madidate is THE JOB of the states, as many of them weren't in trouble. If your state is getting fucked up by the virus, you need a mask mandate, if it's not It's up to you. Vaccines are the job of the federal government. I live in Missouri, Missouri can't create Vaccines.

I realize this isn't very coincident, but I'm kinda on a time limit, here.

Moose Muffins !

What about the Border ? In March of last year about 30,000 illegal immigrants crossed over from Mexico. This March it was at least 300,000. Look at oil prices ; employment; unemployment and dozen other stats and Biden has been no better if not worse than Trump. Even the Covid numbers are no better under Biden EXCEPT for total vaccinations and per diem vaccinations . Both have gone way up under Biden thanks to what was already in the pipeline when he took office. Why have mass shootings gone up under Biden ? Are they his fault ? I don't think so but it is just as unfair to blame him for some things as it is to blame Trump.

Eric Stoner
04-09-2021, 08:43 AM
Citation needed, particularly on the POTUS part.



Not that the "hyuck hyuck fake news" crowd will read, but here it is again:

Oh stop it. My posts criticizing Trump are all over this board. I assume you have the same search function I do. Use it.

dpacrkk
04-09-2021, 08:46 AM
If these foreign vaccines are so great WHY aren't they being injected into European arms.

...They are.

Side note: this is what America has become, a country where a significant cohort thinks Europe isn't being vaccinated.

Eric Stoner
04-09-2021, 08:53 AM
...They are.

Side note: this is what America has become, a country where a significant cohort thinks Europe isn't being vaccinated.

They are. Never said they weren't. Please READ Post 141 supra. But not at the rate that the U.S. , Britain and Israel have vaccinated and are vaccinating.

dpacrkk
04-09-2021, 09:07 AM
They are. Never said they weren't. Please READ Post 141 supra. But not at the rate that the U.S. , Britain and Israel have vaccinated and are vaccinating.

Maybe you should read it:


If these foreign vaccines are so great WHY aren't they being injected into European arms.

because you never mentioned rate until now. And Israel is in Europe now? Add this to the previous side note about that aforementioned cohort of Americans.

Eric Stoner
04-09-2021, 09:46 AM
You are obviously trying to pick a fight over nothing. I choose not to engage with your silliness. Have a great day.

dpacrkk
04-09-2021, 09:57 AM
You are obviously trying to pick a fight over nothing. I choose not to engage with your silliness. Have a great day.

Let's review with some of your statements exaggerated for hilarity:

"Foreign vaccines aren't so great. Otherwise Europeans would be being vaccinated."
"I mean, Europeans are being vaccinated but at a lower rate. Just look at the great European nations of Britain and Israel."
"I mean, of course I know Israel isn't in Europe. It just happened to be listed in the clause that was supposed to demonstrate my great worldly knowledge as a completely unrelated aside. I could have named multiple other European countries with COVID-19 vaccine rollouts, but chose to name one in Asia when I started this conversation about Europe."

Raziel
04-09-2021, 10:08 AM
Moose Muffins !

What about the Border ? In March of last year about 30,000 illegal immigrants crossed over from Mexico. This March it was at least 300,000. Look at oil prices ; employment; unemployment and dozen other stats and Biden has been no better if not worse than Trump. Even the Covid numbers are no better under Biden EXCEPT for total vaccinations and per diem vaccinations . Both have gone way up under Biden thanks to what was already in the pipeline when he took office. Why have mass shootings gone up under Biden ? Are they his fault ? I don't think so but it is just as unfair to blame him for some things as it is to blame Trump.

Look, no offense, but what does the border have to do with the price of tea in China? This thread isn't about the border. Not about Biden, either, WTF are we arguing about?