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Raziel
05-17-2021, 09:13 AM
I don't know how cool this is gonna be, but fuck it. Djoser can just close it if he wants.

Hamas is launching rockets at Israel, and Israel is doing airstrikes on Gaza. Just hit military targets and leave civilians alone. Somebody joins the army, they know what they're getting into. If you're a kid walking to school, or just some dude going to work, you shouldn't have to die, or worry about dying. On either side. I really hate it when Civilians get killed. Most of these people are just regular people. And that statement includes Israelis. This whole thing is just madness!

This post isn't really about politics, it's about Civilian deaths (Including little kids). And that's something that all thinking people should freak out about. I don't care about politics in this case, both sides should have some Humanity and not launch a missile at a SCHOOL!

CFMNH44
05-17-2021, 10:49 AM
Agree. But do the Palestinians have any military targets? Aren't they basically refuges? Like since 1942?
This situation has gone on for far too long, longer than we have been alive, seems to have no solution. Race and religion based, used to be rock throwing, now supported with sophisticated weapons for both sides by proxy governments. Primarily the US and Iran. The senseless killing 'to send a message' just creates a new generation of revenge seekers. Sad.

Raziel
05-17-2021, 02:21 PM
Well, sort of they have Military targets. It's usually in some Warehouse or something. And they hide behind Civilians (Whom, by the way, have guns to their heads to FORCE them to be Human shields). But Israel isn't much better. Israel is just so used to being attacked that they retaliate with immense force. I would normally agree with that, fucking carpet bomb these terrorists (Not every Arab is an Angel sent from Heaven), but not against Civies. Blow the fuck outta Hamas, but TRY to not kill any Civilians.

I think it's like fifty little kids that died so far.

Raziel
05-17-2021, 04:59 PM
You hit 'em back and you hit 'em REAL hard. Make sure and certain that they never fuck with you again. But leave Civilians alone. These folks are NOT fighting you, they're just trying to get by. No reason on Earth to kill them. Killing them will just create more Terrorists, and we've got enough of them. We're full.

moneybags
05-17-2021, 08:53 PM
War....what is it good for.....



https://youtu.be/ztZI2aLQ9Sw

(Just trying to add some levity to a heartbreaking situation.)

Eric Stoner
05-18-2021, 08:47 AM
I love a good discussion but this is Pure POLITICS ! Pretending otherwise is fooling no one.

Raziel
05-18-2021, 08:55 AM
Killing little kids is not politics.

CFMNH44
05-19-2021, 06:44 AM
Politics? Like the current administration blocking the UN vote and supplying weapons? But wait, I thought this issue was solved by Jared Kushner's Peace Mission Trip?! There, I think i equally insulted both parties equally, LOL feeling chippy today, sorry DJoser...

Eric Stoner
05-19-2021, 09:10 AM
If the guidelines have been loosened to permit discussion of current events and other topical issues I am all in favor.

On this particular issue I don't think there is any comparison between Israel and Hamas. The Israeli Court decision that supposedly sparked this latest conflict was correct on the facts and the law. Property was restored to Jewish families that held title prior to 1948 and where the Arab residents did not have legal title from the Jordanian government. Netanyahu is not going to give in and has already told Biden to go copulate with himself. The reason there are so many "civilian " casualties is because Hamas has imbedded itself with civilians guaranteeing collateral damage. The media have let themselves be used for Hamas propaganda by highlighting innocent victims and not showing dead and wounded Hamas fighters.

It is a WAR ! Women, children and other civilians die in wars. Always have , always will.

Hamas and Hezbollah have made no secret of their desire to kill or drive out ALL Jews from Israel. They are supported by Iran which is Israel's sworn enemy. Hamas has not received any support from other Arab countries. Why do you think that is ?

Raziel
05-19-2021, 01:32 PM
It is a WAR ! Women, children and other civilians die in wars. Always have , always will.

I didn't say there was! This is about Women and Children getting fucking BOMBED, on both sides. Make no mistake. I see your point, but Civvies getting killed really bothers me. I don't give a shit whom they are. OR who killed them. They shouldn't be dead. They had no part in this.

Eric Stoner
05-20-2021, 10:16 AM
The so called "innocent" have been suffering in that part of the world for generations.

rickdugan
05-20-2021, 10:48 AM
The reason there are so many "civilian " casualties is because Hamas has imbedded itself with civilians guaranteeing collateral damage. The media have let themselves be used for Hamas propaganda by highlighting innocent victims and not showing dead and wounded Hamas fighters.

It is a WAR ! Women, children and other civilians die in wars. Always have , always will.

Hamas and Hezbollah have made no secret of their desire to kill or drive out ALL Jews from Israel. They are supported by Iran which is Israel's sworn enemy. Hamas has not received any support from other Arab countries. Why do you think that is ?

Yup, it's the same song and dance every time.

Hamas gets upset over some policy or dispute and they respond by indiscriminately firing rockets into Israeli civilian areas. When Israel tries to put a stop to it, they find the perps hiding behind their own women and children. Which of course is by design because collateral damage is nearly impossible to avoid, at which point the very same people who used their own women and children as human shields cry out in feigned outrage that Israel is killing civilians.

Heck senior Hamas leaders even hid in a building full of foreign press. Imagine their delight if Israel had taken the bait and killed a bunch of foreign reporters.

In the meantime nobody asks questions like: (1) how Hamas got it 's hands on 4,000+ rockets in the first place, which obviously required planning; (2) why they were using their own people as human shields; or (3) why they keep choosing Israeli civilians targets from the outset. Nope, instead let's blame Israel for trying to stop Hamas from killing its people because of course the Israelis just have to be the bad guys.

Rinse, repeat.

Raziel
05-20-2021, 12:14 PM
The so called "innocent" have been suffering in that part of the world for generations.

And it's always the innocent that suffer the most. And they're not "so called" innocent. Their political beliefs do not matter. Do you really want someone that works at a gas station and goes home to his family KILLED? Or a little KID? Most of these folks are just regular people.

And Rick, yes, it's the same song and dance, not arguing with you there. The Middle East has always been a hotbed. And Hamas is firing rockets into Israel, no argument there. I'm just saying don't kill women and children, that's it. PALESTINIANS have died because of Hamas. Carpet bomb those dudes into the STONE AGE, get rid to them.

rickdugan
05-20-2021, 01:15 PM
And Rick, yes, it's the same song and dance, not arguing with you there. The Middle East has always been a hotbed. And Hamas is firing rockets into Israel, no argument there. I'm just saying don't kill women and children, that's it. PALESTINIANS have died because of Hamas. Carpet bomb those dudes into the STONE AGE, get rid to them.

Sounds great in theory, but when they're using women and children as human shields while they keep firing their rockets, even the best laid plans are not going to be foolproof. The rockets have to be stopped or else the enemy will just become more emboldened and kill yet more Israelis. Israel is very much trying to limit civilian casualties. They even called the reporters and told them to evacuate the building in which Hamas leaders were hiding, even though they knew that it would tip off the enemy too. But nothing works perfectly when the bad guys intentionally put their own women and children in harm's way.

Raziel
05-20-2021, 01:25 PM
Look, in this conflict I am very much on the side of Israel. They were the ones that were attacked. Hamas is a terrorist organization that needs to go. They do more damage to their own people than they solve. I just feel that Israel needs to be more careful in whom they bomb. That's it.

Raziel
05-20-2021, 01:32 PM
One dead Kid is one too many. Even one.

Raziel
05-20-2021, 06:16 PM
OK there's apparently now a ceasefire. Unfortunately, last time this happened there were like TEN ceasefires (And I'm not being hyperbolic, literally TEN. It lasted like 51 days). We shall see.

rickdugan
05-21-2021, 07:38 AM
One dead Kid is one too many. Even one.

Unfortunately that ship sailed the second that Hamas started firing thousands of rockets at civilian targets while hiding behind their own civilians. It's a Catch 22 - you can't stop the rockets from killing your civilians if you don't go after them, but it's nearly impossible to avoid civilian casualties when you do because the enemy is using their own as human shields. At that point, the best you can do is to try to minimize collateral casualties as much as possible.

threlayer
05-24-2021, 09:08 PM
Like many of these little wars, this one has a starting event. Usually it is against Muslims in Israel, as it is this time, at the al Aqsa Mosque. The Muslims living in Israel have so little power against injustices, that it is no surprise that their only power is Hamas retaliations. This is because of the Apartheid that Iseael inflicts on Palestinians, as well as the profusion of settlements, which preclude the Two State Solution which Netanyahoo is completely against. Justhow does he expect peace except by further subjugation ? Insight: he doesn't.
I believe he would rather wipe out the Palestinians, a process which I call genocide. This is if such is a retribution again the the Holocaust, but different people are involved.

Eric Stoner
05-25-2021, 08:40 AM
Like many of these little wars, this one has a starting event. Usually it is against Muslims in Israel, as it is this time, at the al Aqsa Mosque. The Muslims living in Israel have so little power against injustices, that it is no surprise that their only power is Hamas retaliations. This is because of the Apartheid that Iseael inflicts on Palestinians, as well as the profusion of settlements, which preclude the Two State Solution which Netanyahoo is completely against. Justhow does he expect peace except by further subjugation ? Insight: he doesn't.
I believe he would rather wipe out the Palestinians, a process which I call genocide. This is if such is a retribution again the the Holocaust, but different people are involved.

I think this is why politics is SUPPOSED to be avoided on this board. Your post is so factually delinquent and so biased against Israel that it is hard to know where to begin in trying to set the record straight.
Israel did NOT start firing rockets at Gaza. Hamas started by firing rockets at Israel. Indiscriminately. Israel made an effort to avoid civilian casualties.
Muslim and Christian Arabs living IN Israel have all the rights of Israeli citizens. About 20% of the Knesset is made up of Arab members. They can live anywhere they want. Those Palestinians living in Gaza are forced to live in a festering sore of a huge refugee camp under HAMAS; not Israel. On the West Bank it is the Palestinian Authority under Abbas who btw is in the 19th year of his original four year term as President. They were supposed to have an election but as soon as he realized he would lose to Hamas he canceled it. Again. As he has done several times in the past.
It is true that Israel's hands are not as clean as they would like the world to think. They have put settlements where they do not belong. They do abuse some Arabs in the West Bank. They have stolen Arab land to build and expand settlements in the name of national security.
The best indication that the equities are more on the Israeli side than Hamas is the deafening silence from Egypt, Jordan and most other Arab states. They are well aware that Hamas is an Iranian proxy and that Iran has been supplying weapons and other aid to try and destabilize the region.

DeathAndTaxes
05-25-2021, 12:32 PM
The best indication that the equities are more on the Israeli side than Hamas is the deafening silence from Egypt, Jordan and most other Arab states. They are well aware that Hamas is an Iranian proxy and that Iran has been supplying weapons and other aid to try and destabilize the region.

Eh? why does the opinion of Israeli allies mean anything in any sort of logical argument? I am sure your friends say you are a swell guy but I am not putting much stock in that opinion (no offense)

In the end, what matters is that the mood is shifting, Israel was untouchable 2 weeks ago, but after everybody realized they started this round of war public opinion in the US shifted dramatically with the Democrats and even Jews calling Bibi out. This was unthinkable and almost part of rightwing cancel culture just 2+ weeks ago.

The less power the alt-right hold, the better.

eagle2
05-25-2021, 02:55 PM
It's not the "alt right" that supports Israel. The "alt right" is against Israel and hates Jews. Israel didn't start the war. Hamas did, by firing rockets into Israel.

DeathAndTaxes
05-25-2021, 03:55 PM
It's not the "alt right" that supports Israel. The "alt right" is against Israel and hates Jews. Israel didn't start the war. Hamas did, by firing rockets into Israel.

No, you are thinking white supremacists, the alt right is Trump, Tucker, Cruz, Bibi, etc they are basically 1000% pro Israel

Raziel
05-25-2021, 06:31 PM
No, you are thinking white supremacists, the alt right is Trump, Tucker, Cruz, Bibi, etc they are basically 1000% pro Israel

They might be Pro-Israel, but they are against American Jews. They are pro Jews as long as they live overseas. And they're only pro Israel because they're told to be by Fox and the Orange Monster in Maralago.

eagle2
05-25-2021, 07:40 PM
No, you are thinking white supremacists, the alt right is Trump, Tucker, Cruz, Bibi, etc they are basically 1000% pro Israel

White supremacists are alt right. "Alt" is short for "alternate". Trump, Tucker, and Cruz are not "alternate". They are mainstream right.

From:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right

"Alt-right", an abbreviation of alternative right, refers to a loosely connected far-right, white nationalist movement. A largely online phenomenon, the alt-right originated in the United States during the 2010s, although it has since established a presence in various other countries. The term is ill-defined, having been used in different ways by various self-described "alt-rightists", media commentators, and academics. Groups which have been identified as alt-right also espouse white supremacism, white separatism, right-wing populism, anti-immigration, racism, anti-communism, anti-Zionism, antisemitism, Holocaust denial, xenophobia, anti-intellectualism, antifeminism, homophobia, and Islamophobia.

DeathAndTaxes
05-25-2021, 07:52 PM
Disagree, mainstream right is Cheney, Romney etc.

kamiliam
05-25-2021, 07:55 PM
so there are many in all these groups that support Israel despite their personal antisemitic views. The common denominator is often if they believe in the Rapture as invented by the American Evangelicals. They are needed in Israel for the rapture to happen. Its all very dark. Almost as dark as the apartheid in Israel.

I wouldn't get too caught up on the definition of the alt right, many are not consistent with their views. Look at non white proud boys.

DeathAndTaxes
05-25-2021, 08:01 PM
so there are many in all these groups that support Israel despite their personal antisemitic views. The common denominator is often if they believe in the Rapture as invented by the American Evangelicals. They are needed in Israel for the rapture to happen. Its all very dark. Almost as dark as the apartheid in Israel.

I wouldn't get too caught up on the definition of the alt right, many are not consistent with their views. Look at non white proud boys.

I mean I know the reason, they really really hate liberals/left, if France started hating liberals they would all be French now. See Russia, Israel, NK, they are all chic because they trigger the libs.

eagle2
05-25-2021, 08:02 PM
How can you possibly say that the former Republican POTUS, is "alternate" right and not mainstream, especially, considering he probably has the support of 90 percent or more, of Republicans in Congress? Trump is the leading candidate by far, for the 2024 Republican nomination:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/05/trump-stronger-for-2024-nomination-than-you-might-think.html

He's ahead of anyone else by more than 30 points. How is that not mainstream?

DeathAndTaxes
05-25-2021, 08:09 PM
Because you are concentrating on the semantics and not etymology, mainstream conservatives is what the alt right rebelled against, what are we supposed to call Cheney and Romney? liberals? centrists? lol.

Trump does not get to define anything around him, not mainstream nor centrism.

eagle2
05-25-2021, 08:23 PM
so there are many in all these groups that support Israel despite their personal antisemitic views. The common denominator is often if they believe in the Rapture as invented by the American Evangelicals. They are needed in Israel for the rapture to happen. Its all very dark. Almost as dark as the apartheid in Israel.

I wouldn't get too caught up on the definition of the alt right, many are not consistent with their views. Look at non white proud boys.

Evangelical Christians' difference with Jews is over religious beliefs. Evangelical Christians would like to see Jews convert to Christianity. The alt right wants to throw Jews into gas chambers. If your Jewish, that's a very big difference.

kamiliam
05-25-2021, 08:34 PM
Evangelical Christians' difference with Jews is over religious beliefs. Evangelical Christians would like to see Jews convert to Christianity. The alt right wants to throw Jews into gas chambers. If your Jewish, that's a very big difference.

I'm not going to make a big thing about this but I would research a little further about what many (including "mainstream") believe the rapture to be and how this is exclusive to Modern American Southern Baptist/Evangelicals and how this relates to their view of Israel. I would look at what groups fund this. No one is converting anyone...

eagle2
05-25-2021, 08:34 PM
Because you are concentrating on the semantics and not etymology, mainstream conservatives is what the alt right rebelled against, what are we supposed to call Cheney and Romney? liberals? centrists? lol.

Trump does not get to define anything around him, not mainstream nor centrism.

Trump, Cheney, and Romney are all mainstream conservatives. Cheney voted with Trump 93% of the time. Romney voted with Trump 79% of the time. Cheney said she voted for Trump in 2020. I wouldn't be surprised if Romney did too. Trump, Cheney, and Romney all have the same views regarding Israel.

Richard Spencer, who is the one who came up with the term "alt right" to describe his movement, is a white supremacist, as well a nazi who hates Jews and Israel.

eagle2
05-25-2021, 08:51 PM
I'm not going to make a big thing about this but I would research a little further about what many (including "mainstream") believe the rapture to be and how this is exclusive to Modern American Southern Baptist/Evangelicals and how this relates to their view of Israel. I would look at what groups fund this. No one is converting anyone...

There are Baptist/Evangelical organizations, such as Jews for Jesus, that specifically target Jews for conversion. It's not something I'm fond of, but as long as it's not forced, I don't think it's a big deal. Alt right followers are murdering Jewish worshippers in synagogues. There's no comparison between the two.

SnuffleUffleGrass
05-25-2021, 09:05 PM
Richard Spencer, who is the one who came up with the term "alt right" to describe his movement, is a white supremacist, as well a nazi who hates Jews and Israel.

Richard Spencer is basically a free roaming mental patient that embarrasses Montana- unfortunately white supremacist groups have headquarters in MT and parts of the Pacific Northwest so he has enough friends to keep him right where he is (trying to be a mouthpiece for his worldview.)


There will never be a happy resolution to the Israel/Palestine situation. They'll be fighting until the world ends. Sorry to be so cynical but it is what it is.

eagle2
05-25-2021, 09:34 PM
Richard Spencer is basically a free roaming mental patient that embarrasses Montana- unfortunately white supremacist groups have headquarters in MT and parts of the Pacific Northwest so he has enough friends to keep him right where he is (trying to be a mouthpiece for his worldview.)


That doesn't change the fact that there are many people who share his views, and some of these people are very violent.



There will never be a happy resolution to the Israel/Palestine situation. They'll be fighting until the world ends. Sorry to be so cynical but it is what it is.

Hopefully over time, things will get better. What's going on in some other countries is a lot worse, but doesn't get the coverage Israel gets. Hundreds of thousands of people have been killed in the civil war in Syria.

Eric Stoner
05-26-2021, 07:37 AM
Disagree, mainstream right is Cheney, Romney etc.

Only because they hate Trump, right ?

There are crypto fascists on the right just as there are anti-semitic commies on the left. So what ?

Eric Stoner
05-26-2021, 07:41 AM
so there are many in all these groups that support Israel despite their personal antisemitic views. The common denominator is often if they believe in the Rapture as invented by the American Evangelicals. They are needed in Israel for the rapture to happen. Its all very dark. Almost as dark as the apartheid in Israel.

I wouldn't get too caught up on the definition of the alt right, many are not consistent with their views. Look at non white proud boys.

There is truth in what you say. There is a strain of far right Christers that support Israel because they believe it will promote Armageddon and the Rapture. That the final battle between good and evil will start in the Middle East. Fortunately most of these fruit loops have been kept out of government. Even under Bush The Dim.

rickdugan
05-26-2021, 07:41 AM
In the end, what matters is that the mood is shifting, Israel was untouchable 2 weeks ago, but after everybody realized they started this round of war public opinion in the US shifted dramatically with the Democrats and even Jews calling Bibi out. This was unthinkable and almost part of rightwing cancel culture just 2+ weeks ago.

Ummm...sorry, but who started firing rockets at who? Either that Vegas sun is very strong or we are seeing revisionist history in action. ;)

Eric Stoner
05-26-2021, 07:49 AM
Evangelical Christians' difference with Jews is over religious beliefs. Evangelical Christians would like to see Jews convert to Christianity. The alt right wants to throw Jews into gas chambers. If your Jewish, that's a very big difference.

There are certainly anti-semitic Neo Nazi and White Supremacist groups. The term Alt Right has often been used to include other groups that the left doesn't like such as America First , anti illegal immigration , protectionism etc.

It is really semantics. True conservatives OPPOSE Anti-Semitism. Bill Buckley helped drive Anti-Semites out of the Conservative movement in the 50's and early 60's. They support Israel. Nixon did. Reagan did. Bush The Dim did. Trump was the best friend Israel has had in the Oval Office in the 21st Century.

rickdugan
05-26-2021, 07:58 AM
Trump, Cheney, and Romney are all mainstream conservatives. Cheney voted with Trump 93% of the time. Romney voted with Trump 79% of the time. Cheney said she voted for Trump in 2020. I wouldn't be surprised if Romney did too. Trump, Cheney, and Romney all have the same views regarding Israel.

Richard Spencer, who is the one who came up with the term "alt right" to describe his movement, is a white supremacist, as well a nazi who hates Jews and Israel.

Eagle, this is not really aimed at you...just that your post is a good foundation for my follow-up. I actually agree with what you are saying about this so-called "alt right."

I think we are getting too caught up in the weeds on trying to label different elements. But if I had to apply labels, I would hardly put Romney in the mainstream. This is the guy who passed Romneycare in MA long before Obama was even on the scene. If anything, I'd put him at center to barely right.

Trump would most aptly be labeled a populist conservative. You can hardly call someone far right when they are supporting things like trade tariffs and massive spending blowouts. Also, until he came on the scene, more mainstream conservatives, like GW Bush and moderate Republicans from TX and FL, were in favor of immigration reform, but Trump veered far right to court blue collar workers in both red and blue states.

Finally, this attempt to label Republicans who seemingly supported Trump as "Trumpists" is kinda' silly. Most of those elected to the House and Senate are very much "mainstream", but right now it does not pay to antagonize the elements of the party that still support him. If you look at actual Republican actions in the House and Senate, including attempts to stem the never-ending wave of debt being loaded on our future generations by Biden Claus, it is very much a mainstream flavor and likely runs counter to what Trump would have urged.

Eric Stoner
05-26-2021, 08:02 AM
Ummm...sorry, but who started firing rockets at who? Either that Vegas sun is very strong or we are seeing revisionist history in action. ;)

Documented but not widely reported : As many as 30% of the Hamas rockets fell short and landed in Gaza. I suppose in addition to providing Hamas with their own Iron Dome, Israel ought to help them improve their missile guidance ? That is the logical extension of what AOC and her fellow dimwits and Anti-Semites have been saying. Tlaib et. al. have bemoaned the fact that Hamas does not have Iron Dome. Ignoring the fact that were it not for Hamas and Hezbollah firing rockets into Israel that they wouldn't need it.

eagle2
05-26-2021, 01:18 PM
Eagle, this is not really aimed at you...just that your post is a good foundation for my follow-up. I actually agree with what you are saying about this so-called "alt right."

I think we are getting too caught up in the weeds on trying to label different elements. But if I had to apply labels, I would hardly put Romney in the mainstream. This is the guy who passed Romneycare in MA long before Obama was even on the scene. If anything, I'd put him at center to barely right.


Romney was moderate when he was governing a liberal state, but as a presidential candidate and senator, he's been a lot more conservative. As a presidential candidate, he said he would repeal Obamacare, which is very similar to Romneycare. As a senator, he voted with Trump most of the time.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-trump-score/mitt-romney/

Reagan was also much more liberal as governor of CA than as President. He supported abortion rights as governor. He also publicly opposed an antigay measure in a state referendum, which helped defeat it.