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Eric Stoner
07-15-2021, 11:17 AM
Well I think I've been pretty clear about my reasoning and it certainly isn't out of some blind obstinance. As a parent the macro calculus is a distant second to the risk/reward profile specific to my children. I'm not the National Director of Public Health, but rather simply a parent whose job is to do what is in the best interest of his particular children.

When I am facing the choice of:


giving them a brand new vaccine with no long-term data behind it and which uses a fairly novel gene delivery mechanism; vs
the risk of them catching a virus that is not especially dangerous to them anyway given their ages and health profiles...

The choice is not a hard one for me, at least right now. Now could this calculus change over time as more data comes in on either side of the equation? Sure, but right now, when looking at it purely from their interests and excluding macro considerations, for me the math works in favor of holding off. All of our older relations have been vaccinated and anyone who hasn't is taking his or her own chances.

OK. Got it. Thanks. The problem is it's not a perfect world. Similar arguments could have been made against taking the Polio vaccine when it first came out. (And btw, a lot of adults came down with Polio. Not just children.) Or this year's Flu shot. I understand what you are basing your decision on but I personally prefer a probability vs. severity vs. cost or burden balancing test. If you were told that the plane you are about to board had a 1 % chance of crashing I doubt very much you'd get on it. I know I wouldn't. If the odds were 1 in a million and I really , really had to get to my destination then I just might get on board. That's not how enough people are looking at Covid in general and the vaccines in particular.

eagle2
07-15-2021, 11:40 AM
What I oppose is the silly stuff. The theatrics that have no real impact on the spread of the disease. Mandating masks for schoolchildren is a perfect example. Young people are far less likely to get the virus ; far less likely to get seriously ill if they do and the chances that they will pass it on to their classmates are minute. Compare that to the genuine downside of compelling them to wear masks with both physical and psychological detriment.


The main reason why schoolchildren were required to wear masks was to prevent them from catching the virus and spreading it to others who are at risk, including teachers, parents, or grandparents. Again, now that there are vaccines available, it no longer matters. At this point, any person who has refused get vaccinated and catches the virus, is 100% responsible for it.

Eric Stoner
07-15-2021, 11:45 AM
The main reason why schoolchildren were required to wear masks was to prevent them from catching the virus and spreading it to others who are at risk, including teachers, parents, or grandparents. Again, now that there are vaccines available, it no longer matters. At this point, any person who has refused get vaccinated and catches the virus, is 100% responsible for it.

Oh dear. What is the world coming to ? I agree with your last point 100%. The problem is nitwits like DeBlasio who are NOT following the science and not keeping up to date and want to continue requiring schoolchildren to wear masks.

rickdugan
07-15-2021, 11:56 AM
OK. Got it. Thanks. The problem is it's not a perfect world. Similar arguments could have been made against taking the Polio vaccine when it first came out. (And btw, a lot of adults came down with Polio. Not just children.) Or this year's Flu shot. I understand what you are basing your decision on but I personally prefer a probability vs. severity balancing test. If you were told that the plane you are about to board had a 1 % chance of crashing I doubt very much you'd get on it. I know I wouldn't. If the odds were 1 in a million and I really , really had to get to my destination then I just might get on board. That's not how enough people are looking at Covid in general and the vaccines in particular.

Polio impacted primarily young kids and had a range of horrible outcomes, death being only one. But you're right that it did also hit some adults. Given its wider range among various younger age groups, our natural desire to protect small children and the constant reminders of how bad it could be (back then who didn't know someone who was permanently crippled from it?), there were a number of motivating factors supporting vaccinations for kids and healthy young adults that simply don't exist for the COVID vaccine.

But even with this different personal calculus, there was plenty of hesitancy back then too. It took years to work out the kinks in that vaccine, as has been the case with almost every vaccine that has ever been deployed. Even with a disease as horrible as polio, it took almost 25 years before we finally eradicated it through vaccinations.

As far as the flu, I don't vaccinate my kids for that either. My oldest had a very scary reaction to it one year that put us in the hospital in the wee hours of the morning. Once every few years, at the first sign of flu symptoms, we immediately get them a prescription for Tamiflu and they are back in the saddle in a few days. Easy peasy. Again, personal calculus.

LoveyD
07-15-2021, 05:12 PM
Covid news flash: The most difficult thing about the pandemic is that people need to realize not everything is about them.

LoveyD
07-18-2021, 06:17 PM
I think I killed this thread lol

whirlerz
07-18-2021, 06:20 PM
I think I killed this thread lol


Nah.

This'lll bring it back..

Snip: Olympic athletes to sleep on 'anti- sex ' beds, amid Covid.

https://nypost.com/2021/07/18/athletes-to-sleep-on-anti-sex-cardboard-beds-at-olympic-games/

LoveyD
07-18-2021, 07:01 PM
The numbers in my city keep increasing.

eagle2
07-18-2021, 10:00 PM
I'm not going to relitigate the rather painful narrative that a country like ours, with its Constitutional constraints, open boarders and cultural influences, should have used tactics similar to Australia, Asian countries and several other much smaller countries with more centralized powers. We've covered this ground ad nauseum. At some point a grown man either recognizes that one of the prices of our freedoms is that our government cannot do these things as efficiently or effectively to its own population or he's going to value those freedoms much less than he yearns for other people to take care of him. These are philosophical and emotional stances that are not going to be changed via debate.

I hardly consider Australia to be an authoritarian state. It's not just other countries. States that put restrictions in place right from the start, and did not remove those restrictions until scientists determined that it was safe to do so, had much lower death rates than those states whose governors based their decisions solely on what they thought was best for them politically. Washington, Oregon, and Utah all had death rates that were less than one half of Florida's.

Why do you continue to come here, and use these discussions to promote your political views, as well as oppose all measures meant to prevent the spread of the virus, knowing that you are antagonizing many members of this forum? In previous discussions, many here specifically complained about you doing this, yet you continue to do it. There are people here who may have lost friends or family due to the virus, and do not want to hear about how we shouldn't be worrying about it or doing anything to prevent it, unless you were old or sick. At least two members of this forum caught the virus, and said it was a horrific experience. You also put out misinformation to justify your views, such as saying that the people dying from the virus already had one foot in the grave, when in reality, over 100,000 people under the age of 65 have died from it. The previous thread on vaccinations had to be closed, because you and one other person felt it was necessary to turn the discussion into praising your political leader and bashing his successor, as well as anyone who dared disagree with you, rather than keeping to the topic of the vaccines.

The purpose of these discussions is to provide useful information about coronavirus and the pandemic, not bash government policies that you don't like. What should be posted is what the facts and evidence are, not one's personal feelings. It is a fact that the coronavirus is still with us, and there is a newer, more contagious, and more deadly variant that is being spread. It is a fact that vaccines have been shown to be very effective in preventing serious cases of the virus as well as deaths. Over 50 percent of adults have been fully vaccinated. Of those who have been recently hospitalized and those who have recently died from covid, less than one percent have been fully vaccinated. It is a fact that the vaccines are very safe. There has been an extremely small number of deaths attributed to the J & J vaccine, and zero deaths attributed to the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. If you have not been vaccinated, it is a fact that wearing a mask and social distancing will greatly reduce the likelihood of catching the virus, and that getting vaccinated is the best way to protect yourself from it. If you do have concerns about the vaccine, it is best to discuss your concerns with a medical professional, rather than going by conspiracy theory websites and Fox News commentators.

rickdugan
07-19-2021, 06:25 AM
I hardly consider Australia to be an authoritarian state. It's not just other countries. States that put restrictions in place right from the start, and did not remove those restrictions until scientists determined that it was safe to do so, had much lower death rates than those states whose governors based their decisions solely on what they thought was best for them politically. Washington, Oregon, and Utah all had death rates that were less than one half of Florida's.

Why do you continue to come here, and use these discussions to promote your political views, as well as oppose all measures meant to prevent the spread of the virus, knowing that you are antagonizing many members of this forum? In previous discussions, many here specifically complained about you doing this, yet you continue to do it. There are people here who may have lost friends or family due to the virus, and do not want to hear about how we shouldn't be worrying about it or doing anything to prevent it, unless you were old or sick. At least two members of this forum caught the virus, and said it was a horrific experience. You also put out misinformation to justify your views, such as saying that the people dying from the virus already had one foot in the grave, when in reality, over 100,000 people under the age of 65 have died from it. The previous thread on vaccinations had to be closed, because you and one other person felt it was necessary to turn the discussion into praising your political leader and bashing his successor, as well as anyone who dared disagree with you, rather than keeping to the topic of the vaccines.

The purpose of these discussions is to provide useful information about coronavirus and the pandemic, not bash government policies that you don't like. What should be posted is what the facts and evidence are, not one's personal feelings. It is a fact that the coronavirus is still with us, and there is a newer, more contagious, and more deadly variant that is being spread. It is a fact that vaccines have been shown to be very effective in preventing serious cases of the virus as well as deaths. Over 50 percent of adults have been fully vaccinated. Of those who have been recently hospitalized and those who have recently died from covid, less than one percent have been fully vaccinated. It is a fact that the vaccines are very safe. There has been an extremely small number of deaths attributed to the J & J vaccine, and zero deaths attributed to the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. If you have not been vaccinated, it is a fact that wearing a mask and social distancing will greatly reduce the likelihood of catching the virus, and that getting vaccinated is the best way to protect yourself from it. If you do have concerns about the vaccine, it is best to discuss your concerns with a medical professional, rather than going by conspiracy theory websites and Fox News commentators.

Eagle, a few points:


First off, last I checked this is a "COVID news" thread.
Second, you failed to mention that the vast bulk of the 100,000 under 65 who died from it were 50 and older and most had comorbidities. This thing has not been especially dangerous to younger people, irrespective of the horrible luck that some people on here seem to have had.
Third, as I previously mentioned, we don't have any long-term data on the vaccines, which are new and use a relatively novel delivery mechanism, and that includes death data and other potential long-term impacts.

These points are neither "political" nor "misinformation." The second point in particular is derived from hard data, as linked below. Feel free to disagree, but next time perhaps do it with your own hard data rather than melodramatic complaints and attempts at labeling.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/

The reality is that COVID is not especially dangerous to the demographic that this site serves - young women. That is not political, it is statistical. Notwithstanding the absurdly bad luck experienced on this site, COVID swept through our local clubs without leaving a trace. Several dancers, staff and customers got it several months ago (including me) and they all recovered quickly, most with few symptoms. Knowledge is power and we have been living with it spreading through clubs and other establishments for many months here in FL.

Dancers have to make informed decisions and the never-ending fearmongering is not helpful. Go back up to moneybag's posts and you'll see what 10s of thousands of dancers must contend with every day and night. Things like social distancing and masks are impossible for most dancers who need to make a living in the clubs. So the real decision facing each woman is whether she should continue to dance or do something else and for that she needs an accurate picture of the real risks to her and those that she loves.

So moving forward it would actually be helpful if you would stop with the misinformation and political never-ending crisis spin. Yes COVID is still here, but it's not having the same impact it did before because it's hitting primarily younger people now. Hearing all sides of a debate leads to more information flow and more informed decision-making, regardless of how much you would prefer to pound the drums without anyone else objecting.

miss.a.p1600
07-19-2021, 07:31 AM
I hardly consider Australia to be an authoritarian state. It's not just other countries. States that put restrictions in place right from the start, and did not remove those restrictions until scientists determined that it was safe to do so, had much lower death rates than those states whose governors based their decisions solely on what they thought was best for them politically. Washington, Oregon, and Utah all had death rates that were less than one half of Florida's.

Why do you continue to come here, and use these discussions to promote your political views, as well as oppose all measures meant to prevent the spread of the virus, knowing that you are antagonizing many members of this forum? In previous discussions, many here specifically complained about you doing this, yet you continue to do it. There are people here who may have lost friends or family due to the virus, and do not want to hear about how we shouldn't be worrying about it or doing anything to prevent it, unless you were old or sick. At least two members of this forum caught the virus, and said it was a horrific experience. You also put out misinformation to justify your views, such as saying that the people dying from the virus already had one foot in the grave, when in reality, over 100,000 people under the age of 65 have died from it. The previous thread on vaccinations had to be closed, because you and one other person felt it was necessary to turn the discussion into praising your political leader and bashing his successor, as well as anyone who dared disagree with you, rather than keeping to the topic of the vaccines.

The purpose of these discussions is to provide useful information about coronavirus and the pandemic, not bash government policies that you don't like. What should be posted is what the facts and evidence are, not one's personal feelings. It is a fact that the coronavirus is still with us, and there is a newer, more contagious, and more deadly variant that is being spread. It is a fact that vaccines have been shown to be very effective in preventing serious cases of the virus as well as deaths. Over 50 percent of adults have been fully vaccinated. Of those who have been recently hospitalized and those who have recently died from covid, less than one percent have been fully vaccinated. It is a fact that the vaccines are very safe. There has been an extremely small number of deaths attributed to the J & J vaccine, and zero deaths attributed to the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. If you have not been vaccinated, it is a fact that wearing a mask and social distancing will greatly reduce the likelihood of catching the virus, and that getting vaccinated is the best way to protect yourself from it. If you do have concerns about the vaccine, it is best to discuss your concerns with a medical professional, rather than going by conspiracy theory websites and Fox News commentators.

I’ll answer this for you.

Some males in this forum exhibit low ego Typical Troll Behavior. You will literally waste your time arguing with crazy…..esp for free

My dad always says ‘you can’t expect pigeons to soar like eagles’ :)

rickdugan
07-19-2021, 07:48 AM
I’ll answer this for you.

Some males in this forum exhibit low ego Typical Troll Behavior. You will literally waste your time arguing with crazy…..esp for free

My dad always says ‘you can’t expect pigeons to soar like eagles’ :)

He's soaring alright...far, far away from the practical and real world considerations of 10s of thousands of dancers nationwide who don't share his views. If they did the clubs would be a much quieter place right now. One of the few real active dancers posting in this thread was almost apologetic for speaking up about how she had to go to work to pay the bills and couldn't realistically mask or socially distance, yet he "soared on" (some would call it "plowed ahead") anyway. ;)

Eric Stoner
07-19-2021, 08:37 AM
Having been swatted on the nose with a rolled up newspaper by our Moderator, I am admittedly taking a dive on anything that might be construed ( rightly, wrongly , fairly , unfairly ) as "political". Secondly , I think it is more constructive to move forward rather than dredge up old arguments and grievances. It hasn't been Rick or I who have continually harkened back to LAST YEAR with copious mention and finger pointing based on who was POTUS at the time. There is one poster on here who never misses an opportunity to remind us. So before anyone complains too much about Rick or anyone else with alternate views that are not approved by the Poobahs of Social Media they might want to avoid the personal attacks that create all the heat in the first place. My understanding is that the politics ban was designed and intended to lower the temperature and improve the discourse by inter alia, not providing grounds or excuses for personal attacks. I've been guilty of going over the line and delving into topics best left alone. I've said things better left unsaid ( at least here on S-Web ) and so have several other people. No need to take it personally Eagle. We're all sinners afaic.

That being said, the FACT is that Covid vaccines were all approved by the FDA on an EMERGENCY basis which is A reason why no state can mandate vaccination. My understanding is that we cannot be compelled to be vaccinated with such a designation. However, I still think that the reasons to get vaccinated ( regardless of whether you have had Covid ) outweigh any reason not to. The Delta variant is so highly contagious that many medical experts are saying that not being vaccinated will virtually guarantee catching that variant. And while I love and believe in personal freedom there is a still a Social Contract that comes into play. I , and others ought to be free to do what we want or not do something SO LONG AS our action or inaction does not adversely affect someone else. This is especially so when there is a minimal cost or burden to us. That seems to be the sticking point for Rick . Unless I have misread his posts.

Rick has made several arguments for not just blindly following the herd, particularly where his children are concerned. Given the history and current state of the data for the Covid vaccines , those arguments are not just limited to fever swamps and right wing blogs. I disagree but I can't say that his concerns are groundless.

slowpoke
07-19-2021, 11:01 AM
Nah.

This'lll bring it back..

Snip: Olympic athletes to sleep on 'anti- sex ' beds, amid Covid.

https://nypost.com/2021/07/18/athletes-to-sleep-on-anti-sex-cardboard-beds-at-olympic-games/

Condoms will be distributed to the athletes — but not until they’re leaving the Tokyo Games. Athletes will be allowed to bring alcohol into the village — but allowed to consume it only if they’re alone in their rooms.

The distribution of condoms at the Olympics began in 1988 to raise awareness of HIV and AIDS, and the number condoms given away at subsequent Games has skyrocketed. From 8,500 at the Seoul Games in 1988 to 450,000 at the Rio Games in 2016 Olympics, where Brazilian officials sought to curb the spread of the Zika virus.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2021/06/20/olympics-2021-condoms-given-athletes-they-leave-tokyo/7763989002/

Eric Stoner
07-19-2021, 12:04 PM
Btw, the Dow is tanking today over fears of renewed Covid lockdowns.

eagle2
07-19-2021, 08:54 PM
Rick has made several arguments for not just blindly following the herd, particularly where his children are concerned. Given the history and current state of the data for the Covid vaccines , those arguments are not just limited to fever swamps and right wing blogs. I disagree but I can't say that his concerns are groundless.

People who are getting vaccinated aren't blindly following the herd. People are getting vaccinated based on the fact that the vaccines have been proven safe and effective at preventing serious cases of coronavirus. The ones who are blindly following the herd, are the ones who refuse to get vaccinated, based on crazy conspiracy theories they're reading on the internet or in emails being passed around, rather than going by the actual facts and evidence. Many of these people are ending up in the ICU, or worse.

xxxGothBarbie
07-19-2021, 10:22 PM
People who are getting vaccinated aren't blindly following the herd. People are getting vaccinated based on the fact that the vaccines have been proven safe and effective at preventing serious cases of coronavirus. The ones who are blindly following the herd, are the ones who refuse to get vaccinated, based on crazy conspiracy theories they're reading on the internet or in emails being passed around, rather than going by the actual facts and evidence. Many of these people are ending up in the ICU, or worse.

^Exactly! I choose life over the stupidity that the non vaxxers seem to have. It's one thing to not get it bc you have a severe reaction but to not get it just because.... sooo reckless & stupid.
I'm sorry but I'd rather take "an emergency vaccine" that has already *gasp* been approved by FDA than rely on faith or luck that I'll be ok without it. I was ready to start living again & so yea call me a sheep IDGAF. Fact is I feel safer now than I did a year ago & I'm out living again. I can't believe people aren't getting it, I just can't *smdh*.

rickdugan
07-20-2021, 04:44 AM
Having been swatted on the nose with a rolled up newspaper by our Moderator, I am admittedly taking a dive on anything that might be construed ( rightly, wrongly , fairly , unfairly ) as "political". Secondly , I think it is more constructive to move forward rather than dredge up old arguments and grievances. It hasn't been Rick or I who have continually harkened back to LAST YEAR with copious mention and finger pointing based on who was POTUS at the time. There is one poster on here who never misses an opportunity to remind us. So before anyone complains too much about Rick or anyone else with alternate views that are not approved by the Poobahs of Social Media they might want to avoid the personal attacks that create all the heat in the first place. My understanding is that the politics ban was designed and intended to lower the temperature and improve the discourse by inter alia, not providing grounds or excuses for personal attacks. I've been guilty of going over the line and delving into topics best left alone. I've said things better left unsaid ( at least here on S-Web ) and so have several other people. No need to take it personally Eagle. We're all sinners afaic.

That being said, the FACT is that Covid vaccines were all approved by the FDA on an EMERGENCY basis which is A reason why no state can mandate vaccination. My understanding is that we cannot be compelled to be vaccinated with such a designation. However, I still think that the reasons to get vaccinated ( regardless of whether you have had Covid ) outweigh any reason not to. The Delta variant is so highly contagious that many medical experts are saying that not being vaccinated will virtually guarantee catching that variant. And while I love and believe in personal freedom there is a still a Social Contract that comes into play. I , and others ought to be free to do what we want or not do something SO LONG AS our action or inaction does not adversely affect someone else. This is especially so when there is a minimal cost or burden to us. That seems to be the sticking point for Rick . Unless I have misread his posts.

Rick has made several arguments for not just blindly following the herd, particularly where his children are concerned. Given the history and current state of the data for the Covid vaccines , those arguments are not just limited to fever swamps and right wing blogs. I disagree but I can't say that his concerns are groundless.

Eric, unfortunately an ever increasing percentage of our society has lost the ability to intellectually and emotionally process differences of opinion. It's far easier and much more emotionally satisfying to try to slap labels on opposing views rather than to try to see it through a different lens.

Saying nothing that is new and has no long-term data behind it is "proven safe" will inevitably fall on deaf ears to someone who emotionally needs it to be so. To someone like that, the only conclusion that he can draw is that it must be an ignorant political stance, or a product of some conspiracy, or an emotional "anti-vaxxer" position. It couldn't possibly be a person looking at this through the lens of this country's long and complicated history of vaccine development who might be taking an understandable (whether you agree or disagree) "wait and see" approach until more time has passed. Nope, this person must be a Trumpist. ;)

And for young people who are getting vaccinated in much smaller numbers, the issue couldn't possibly be that they have seen the mortality numbers and many of their peers easily weather COVID and have rationally conducted their own risk/reward calculation. Nope, the issue must be messaging. Same too of course with the majority of dastardly parents who take the vaccine themselves but who are selfishly not inoculating their adolescent children for something that isn't dangerous to them anyway. Sheesh.

Eric Stoner
07-20-2021, 07:43 AM
People who are getting vaccinated aren't blindly following the herd. People are getting vaccinated based on the fact that the vaccines have been proven safe and effective at preventing serious cases of coronavirus. The ones who are blindly following the herd, are the ones who refuse to get vaccinated, based on crazy conspiracy theories they're reading on the internet or in emails being passed around, rather than going by the actual facts and evidence. Many of these people are ending up in the ICU, or worse.

That is partially true. There is no doubt that SOME vaccine resistance is based on junk. Junk science , factual delinquency , wacko conspiracy theories etc. etc. yada , yada. But and it's a big BUT there are some sound bases for people not to get vaccinated . I AGREE with you that imho they are not adequate the overcome the positives for getting vaxxed. But some young people have come down with myocarditis and/or endocarditis caused by the vaccine. And young people are the least vulnerable group. A reason why I personally reject the argument is that this sort of thing is seen with every medication and with every vaccine. The Sabin vaccine ( which replaced the Salk vaccine) was linked to several cases of polio in children who got the sugar cube. Sabin used a live but attenuated polio virus while Salk used a dead virus. I hate to say it but I am old enough to remember lining up with my classmates in First Grade and getting a sugar cube containing Sabin's oral vaccine. That was after getting Salk's vaccine in my pediatrician's office when I was 3. The odds of getting polio from Sabin's vaccine were literally one in a million. The positives were incalculable.
The vaccine was just starting to be widely distributed. I don't know but according to Rick's argument, my classmates and I were human guinea pigs because it was only a year or two after the vaccine was approved. There was no "wait and see " attitude . No sitting on the sideline waiting for more data.

eagle2
07-20-2021, 11:02 AM
Saying nothing that is new and has no long-term data behind it is "proven safe" will inevitably fall on deaf ears to someone who emotionally needs it to be so. To someone like that, the only conclusion that he can draw is that it must be an ignorant political stance, or a product of some conspiracy, or an emotional "anti-vaxxer" position. It couldn't possibly be a person looking at this through the lens of this country's long and complicated history of vaccine development who might be taking an understandable (whether you agree or disagree) "wait and see" approach until more time has passed. Nope, this person must be a Trumpist. ;)


I guess it's just a coincidence that the people refusing to get vaccinated all have no science background and have little understanding of the vaccine or the virus. Many of these people insist the virus is a hoax, even after being taken to the ICU for it. I don't see any doctors or biological scientists insisting it is better to "wait and see". According to the AMA, 96% of doctors are fully vaccinated. But what would doctors know?

I guess it's also a coincidence that the regions with the lowest vaccination rate, all happened to be regions that supported a certain candidate, and all of these regions just happen to be seeing a resurgence of the virus. I'm sure it couldn't be because people whose scientific background amounts to a 9th or 10th grade high school biology class, don't know better than doctors who have completed medical school.

Long and complicated history of vaccine development? Vaccines have wiped out small pox and polio in this country, as well as eliminated measles, whooping cough, and mumps, as well as a other viruses, for everyone who's been vaccinated against them.




And for young people who are getting vaccinated in much smaller numbers, the issue couldn't possibly be that they have seen the mortality numbers and many of their peers easily weather COVID and have rationally conducted their own risk/reward calculation. Nope, the issue must be messaging. Same too of course with the majority of dastardly parents who take the vaccine themselves but who are selfishly not inoculating their adolescent children for something that isn't dangerous to them anyway. Sheesh.

I'm referring to adults who refuse to get vaccinated. I don't even think the vaccines are available to children below a certain age.

eagle2
07-20-2021, 11:08 AM
Florida shows how quickly the Delta Variant can spread. Thank you Gov. DeSantis.

https://i.imgur.com/RjsQhDp.jpg

Eric Stoner
07-20-2021, 11:28 AM
I guess it's just a coincidence that the people refusing to get vaccinated all have no science background and have little understanding of the vaccine or the virus. Many of these people insist the virus is a hoax, even after being taken to the ICU for it. I don't see any doctors or biological scientists insisting it is better to "wait and see". According to the AMA, 96% of doctors are fully vaccinated. But what would doctors know?

I guess it's also a coincidence that the regions with the lowest vaccination rate, all happened to be regions that supported a certain candidate, and all of these regions just happen to be seeing a resurgence of the virus. I'm sure it couldn't be because people whose scientific background amounts to a 9th or 10th grade high school biology class, don't know better than doctors who have completed medical school.

Long and complicated history of vaccine development? Vaccines have wiped out small pox and polio in this country, as well as eliminated measles, whooping cough, and mumps, as well as a other viruses, for everyone who's been vaccinated against them.




I'm referring to adults who refuse to get vaccinated. I don't even think the vaccines are available to children below a certain age.

" All have no science background "... " I don't see any doctors or biological scientists " ... "96% of doctors are fully vaccinated ".
As to the first snippet , you don't know that. It's just an assumption on your part.
You don't see any doctors or scientists taking contrary positions because you don't want to see them. They are out there and have excellent credentials. The gist of the disagreement is over vaccinating and otherwise trying to bubble wrap CHILDREN.
Measles has NOT been eliminated. And it wasn't the tobacco chewing folks you like so much. Do a search , here on this board and see what group was primarily responsible for the recent resurgence. And most of them lived in N.Y and N.J.
There is also disagreement among the scientists as to whether those who have had Covid ought to get vaccinated. Their bodies now have anti-bodies against Covid and some if them have questioned why they have to get a vaccine that does the same exact thing.
All this being said, I still AGREE with you. I think almost everybody ought to get vaccinated unless they have a sound , science based medical reason not to.

Btw, as I pointed out vaccines have not been developed in a risk free vacuum. The Sabin vaccine did result in some children getting polio.

This is another example of you leaping at every opportunity to criticize "you know who " and the people that voted for him. Despite a "politics ban". Naughty !

Eric Stoner
07-20-2021, 11:34 AM
Florida shows how quickly the Delta Variant can spread. Thank you Gov. DeSantis.

https://i.imgur.com/RjsQhDp.jpg

Your point is what ? There are other states where the Delta variant has spread even faster. As we've discussed these "cases" simply mean someone tested positive for the virus variant. Not all got sick. Of those that did , most had a mild case not requiring hospitalization. What are the hospitalization rates ? For vaccinated people vs. unvaccinated ? What are the death rates for both groups ?

According to the CDC , if you have gotten the Pfizer vaccine you have an 88% chance of NOT getting the Delta variant. 87% for Moderna. 85% for Johnson & Johnson. And if you do get it chances are excellent it will be mild and short.

Afaik, Governor DeSantis did everything he could to get people vaccinated starting with the most vulnerable.
As we discussed he protected the elderly ; avoided draconian shutdowns and got the vaccine to those that needed it.
While I think they ought to be vaccinated , children have the lowest risk from Covid. If people in Florida want to mask up nobody is stopping them. I had to wear a mask in all common INDOOR areas of my hotel. Same for all of Broward, Dade , Palm Beach and I think Hillsborough. Why the gratuitous slap at DeSantis ? Why not echo the current POTUS and blame Facebook ?

eagle2
07-20-2021, 11:35 AM
I said, "measles, whooping cough, and mumps, as well as a other viruses, have been eliminated for everyone who's been vaccinated against them."

AMA survey shows over 96% of doctors fully vaccinated against COVID-19

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19

Eric Stoner
07-20-2021, 12:00 PM
That's right. Although I am curious about the 4 % of doctors who are NOT vaccinated. Have any said WHY ? Did they have Covid ?

We AGREE. I think more people should get vaccinated. Especially when almost everyone who has DIED from the Delta variant was not vaccinated. I'm doing this on tip toes for obvious reasons but if you look at WHO is not getting vaxxed and where they live it is clear that a LOT of them were highly unlikely to have been "you know who " voters. Likewise we are letting in a LOT of folks down in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and California without testing them for Covid and we are letting them go anywhere in the U.S. that they want to. Do you see a possible connection ?

rickdugan
07-20-2021, 02:19 PM
I guess it's just a coincidence that the people refusing to get vaccinated all have no science background and have little understanding of the vaccine or the virus. Many of these people insist the virus is a hoax, even after being taken to the ICU for it. I don't see any doctors or biological scientists insisting it is better to "wait and see". According to the AMA, 96% of doctors are fully vaccinated. But what would doctors know?

I guess it's also a coincidence that the regions with the lowest vaccination rate, all happened to be regions that supported a certain candidate, and all of these regions just happen to be seeing a resurgence of the virus. I'm sure it couldn't be because people whose scientific background amounts to a 9th or 10th grade high school biology class, don't know better than doctors who have completed medical school.

Long and complicated history of vaccine development? Vaccines have wiped out small pox and polio in this country, as well as eliminated measles, whooping cough, and mumps, as well as a other viruses, for everyone who's been vaccinated against them.

I'm referring to adults who refuse to get vaccinated. I don't even think the vaccines are available to children below a certain age.

Would you jump off a bridge if a scientist told you that it was safe and medically necessary? ;D

Before you start ranting that I'm comparing that to taking a vaccine, I'm not. I'm just pointing out that we should always use our own common sense filter when evaluating advice from anyone, including scientists, lawyers and others. The mortality and hospitalization stats are widely available - no science degree needed, lol. Young healthy people, those who have resistance from prior infections and the parents of 12-15 year old kids (Yes, one of the vaccines is now approved for adolescents) can read the stats for themselves and come to their own conclusions.

Also, contrary to the outlandish stories in a number of rags, there are plenty of seemingly normal people who have weighed the risks vs. rewards and made their own informed decisions. That includes a solid majority of parents of adolescents nationwide. The fringe types being gleefully highlighted in places like Yahoo and Puffpost are not the norm. Now yes Southerners and Midwesterners tend to have more independent streaks, but don't confuse that for lack of intellect. Indeed they seem to understand the mortality stats better than you do, which is something to consider as you keep trying to find emotionally satisfying labels for them. ::)

And yes, our vaccine history has been littered with hiccups and missteps, including Eric's favorite polio example. The versions we use today went through several iterations over time and are not the ones that first came out, which along with a myriad of drugs we no longer use were also promoted as safe and effective - until they weren't. This is also something that others seem to understand this better than you, lol.

Now I'm not trying to discourage anyone from getting the vaccine, especially people who are scared and/or at high risk. But this notion that there is only one right answer for healthy adolescents and young adults, who are at virtually no real risk from a statistical standpoint, is getting kinda' silly now.

kamiliam
07-20-2021, 02:28 PM
Would you jump off a bridge if a scientist told you that it was safe and medically necessary? ;D

Before you start ranting that I'm comparing that to taking a vaccine, I'm not. I'm just pointing out that we should always use our own common sense filter when evaluating advice from anyone, including scientists, lawyers and others. The mortality and hospitalization stats are widely available - no science degree needed, lol. Young healthy people can read the mortality stats for themselves and come to their own conclusions about risks, as can those who have resistance from prior infections and the parents of 12-15 year old kids (Yes, one of the vaccines is now approved for adolescents).

Also, contrary to the outlandish stories in rags that so heartily feed your confirmation bias, there are plenty of seemingly normal people who have weighed the risks vs. rewards and made their own informed decisions. That includes a solid majority of parents of adolescents nationwide. The fringe types being highlighted in places like Yahoo and Puffpost are not the norm. Now yes Southerners and Midwesterners tend to have more independent streaks, but don't confuse that for lack of intellect. Indeed they seem to understand the mortality stats better than you do, which is something to consider when you keep trying to fit them in these labelled mental buckets of yours. ::)

And yes, our vaccine history has been littered with hiccups and missteps, including Eric's favorite polio example. The versions we use today went through several iterations over time and are not the ones that first came out, which along with a myriad of drugs we no longer use were also promoted as safe and effective - until they weren't. This is also something that others seem to understand this better than you, lol.

Now I'm not trying to discourage anyone from getting the vaccine, especially people who are scared and/or at high risk. But this notion that there is only one right answer for healthy adolescents and young adults, who are at virtually no real risk from a statistical standpoint, is getting kinda' silly now.


you don’t know how science works. At all

LoveyD
07-20-2021, 03:19 PM
Covid numbers continuing to rise in my city. Keeping my vaccinated self home and away from people. Lord knows if the virus will mutate into a strain that overpowers the vaccine.

moneybags
07-20-2021, 03:51 PM
^^^totally valid. Stay safe!

miss.a.p1600
07-20-2021, 04:21 PM
^Yes!

Hand sanitizer n mask on deck

Numbers are rising here too unfortunately!

eagle2
07-20-2021, 07:15 PM
Here's where the outbreaks are occurring:

https://images.dailykos.com/images/967804/large/us0717.png

rickdugan
07-21-2021, 04:10 AM
^ And? It's mostly young healthy people getting it now and, at least here in FL, it's not putting a strain on our hospitals. The same thing happened last Summer when social activities/events were at their highest.

CFMNH44
07-21-2021, 04:38 AM
^ And? It's mostly young healthy people getting it now and, at least here in FL, it's not putting a strain on our hospitals. The same thing happened last Summer when social activities/events were at their highest.

A potential problem is that every new host allows the virus to mutate, usually into a more powerful, or more contagious variant. It will be some time before we will know if this happens. By then it could be too late. If regions that are experiencing 'third wave' infections now are an indicator, this will be with us for some time.

Not a good trend: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/u-s-life-expectancy-decreased-alarming-amount-during-pandemic-n1272206

That it only affects 'older people' may not be a concern, but I'll bet most people hope to someday be 'older people'.

rickdugan
07-21-2021, 06:14 AM
A potential problem is that every new host allows the virus to mutate, usually into a more powerful, or more contagious variant. It will be some time before we will know if this happens. By then it could be too late. If regions that are experiencing 'third wave' infections now are an indicator, this will be with us for some time.

Not a good trend: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/u-s-life-expectancy-decreased-alarming-amount-during-pandemic-n1272206

That it only affects 'older people' may not be a concern, but I'll bet most people hope to someday be 'older people'.

At this point it's pretty clear that this will be with us for some time. But IMHO that's exactly why we need to stop hyperventilating over every jump in spread statistics and start focusing on the more important metrics, which are mortality demographics and hospitalization rates. We are simply are not going to vaccinate this thing away, which the Delta variant should be making pretty clear to everyone by now, so we now need to come up with a rational way to coexist with this.

We already have a roadmap, which we use during every flu season. The vulnerable and/or cautious get vaccinated and everyone else goes about their business. The population will already have some natural resistance due to vaccines and prior exposures, so future outbreaks will likely not be as deadly. Treatments will also inevitably continue to get better. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if some enterprising pharmaceutical company develops a TamiCOVID, lol.

Eric Stoner
07-21-2021, 08:39 AM
1. Vaccine resistance appears to be heavy in the African American community. They did not vote for "you know who".

2. We have had the largest vaccine trials in history for the Covid vaccines. We know the numbers on safety and effectiveness and they are excellent.
Hundreds of millions of people worldwide have now been vaccinated.

3. The Delta variant is highly contagious. But we do not know what its lethality is compared to other strains. We do know that almost everyone who has died from it was not vaccinated. 80% of U.S. elderly have been fully vaccinated. Almost all have had at least one shot. I previously posted ( supra) the numbers for all the vaccines vs. infection from the Delta variant. This is why the jury is out on how deadly the Delta variant is. What we do know is that the vaccines provide complete protection for most people and for those who come down with Covid despite getting the shot , they are surviving. Usually with a mild case. The Pluses of getting vaccinated , regardless of what risk group you fall into are overwhelming.

4. There are medications in the works for treating Covid. None have been approved yet but at least one is supposed to be available in a few months.

5. Rick, there are other states besides Florida dealing with increasing caseloads. I am asking because I do not know but what effects have there been from thousands of UNVACCINATED Covid Positives coming in over our Southern border ? Is anyone even looking at the data ? I think Texas, California and maybe Arizona are having a tough go at present although , so far, their hospitals have not been overwhelmed.

6. RICK - What exactly is the downside that has you so concerned ? Side effects of the vaccine ? The cases of heart issues in young vaccinated people are very rare. Everyone who has been vaxxed has their own story of what the after effects were. They range from nothing to flu like symptoms that lasted a day or two. The exceptions have been very rare. Literally about 1 in a million. Quite similar to the Sabin vaccine. I'm sorry but I keep dragging that one out because the numbers on it are so well known.
The protection from the vaccine not making it worth the risk ? I'm sorry but the numbers do not support that. Quite the contrary. Especially if we focus on the Delta variant.

7. A problem that has actually inhibited adequate understanding of Covid in general and its ability to mutate in particular has been the behavior of the Chinese, NIH , Fauci and the media. Even the WHO is now taking the Chinese to task for stonewalling and footdragging on the origins of the virus. NOW the WHO is saying that it is "quite possible" to "likely" that it escaped from the Wuhan Lab. Depending on what day it is and the weather at the time lol. Fauci testified in May that the NIH did NOT fund any "Gain Of Function" research at the Wuhan Lab. A LOT of people across the political spectrum have called him out on that. There was an NIH grant. There definitely was "Gain Of Function" research at the Wuhan Lab. According to the NIH definition of "Gain Of Function" such research was happening and American money helped pay for it. Leaving aside Fauci's mendacity and conflicts of interest, this stuff is important because we need to be able to gauge and measure the ability of Covid to mutate. Usually, mutation is actually a sign of weakness in a virus. A virus needs a healthy, living host to survive. In the case of Covid and millions of other viruses , that's US, people, humans ! As people build up resistance via vaccine or natural anti-body production a virus will either mutate or die off. ( Btw this is nothing more than classic , textbook microbiology ). Usually, each variant or mutation is actually WEAKER than its forebears. Delta , for instance is more infectious but looks to be less able to cause widespread death and hospitalization. A theory ( repeat THEORY aka hypothesis ) is that Covid was so much deadlier than the flu among the elderly and otherwise physically weak people because it resulted from "Gain Of Function " conversion from an animal borne virus to one that was contagious and deadly to humans. Its communicability and danger level were increased in the lab. In contrast the flu while deadly with the elderly is also dangerous to the young. We have not seen that with Covid.


Sorry but that was a long way of questioning one of Rick's arguments. Covid is not the flu ! Unlike the flu we have not yet gauged the full mischief making capabilities of the Covid virus and all of its variants. In addition to the Delta variant there is also an Epsilon variant. Who knows how many others will be coming over the hill in the years ahead. One thing is certain. Covid is here to stay. We do NOT know yet how reliant we can be on natural immunity from having had Covid. To listen to someone like Rand Paul , if you had Covid , you're good to go. No need to get vaccinated. Likewise we don't know how protective ( and FOR HOW LONG ) the vaccines will be. There is a lot of talk about the need for annual or bi-annual boosters. But, so far , that is mostly coming from the vaccine producers. Surprise ! Surprise ! The very folks with the profit incentive for eternal Covid vaccination .We do know that getting vaxxed does little harm and affords at least some protection to just about everybody who gets the shots.

8. On one point , I will agree with Rick. None of what I have just posted is obscure or archaic. It is all simple basic science. It is easily found from dozens of reputable and reliable sources. And yet, the mainstream media has said little to nothing. We get little more than broad brush reporting: " Fauci says not to worry ( Feb. 2020 ) to Fauci says not to wear a mask ( Mar. 2020 ) to Covid overwhelms U.S. health care system , Stay home ! Wear a mask , vaccines are years away " and we know the rest. Then this year: "Covid cases dropping as more people get vaxxed and life returns to normal " to the current "Not enough people getting vaxxed and Everyone is catching the dreaded Delta variant ". In a nutshell that is what we have gotten from the nightly news over the last year and a half.

rickdugan
07-21-2021, 09:09 AM
^ Alrighty then Eric. My responses are as follows (matched by number):


Interesting.

We simply have no long-term data. My concerns are with the unknown, along with whether public health officials are accurately reporting vaccine side effects as they have ample reasons not to do so at this point. Nonetheless I encouraged my wife to get the jab (which she did) because she's in a high risk category and the math made sense even with the limited data we already had. But my young healthy kids are another story, though that may change over time too.

Why is it that so many folks repeat the "the unvaccinated are the ones dying" mantra like it's some novel point? Of course they are the ones dying, lol. They took their chances and got unlucky. That falls into the category of "shit happens."

It will be nice to see those medications out there.

I don't consider mere spread to be a "tough go" anymore given who it's hitting - mostly young healthy people who experience mild symptoms. FL is definitely experiencing that right now, but it's not really a big deal or even a major topic of conversation here anymore.

See item 2 above.

Another theory is that COVID was so much deadlier because we had no natural population immunities to it. Once upon a time the flu was much deadlier too, but became much less so as more people built up resistance via vaccines and natural exposures. Look back 2 years from now and I'd bet a dollar against a dime that we'll experience a similar transition.

Yup.

Eric Stoner
07-21-2021, 09:48 AM
^ Alrighty then Eric. My responses are as follows (matched by number):


Interesting.

We simply have no long-term data. My concerns are with the unknown, along with whether public health officials are accurately reporting vaccine side effects as they have ample reasons not to do so at this point. Nonetheless I encouraged my wife to get the jab (which she did) because she's in a high risk category and the math made sense even with the limited data we already had. But my young healthy kids are another story, though that may change over time too.

Why is it that so many folks repeat the "the unvaccinated are the ones dying" mantra like it's some novel point? Of course they are the ones dying, lol. They took their chances and got unlucky. That falls into the category of "shit happens."

It will be nice to see those medications out there.

I don't consider mere spread to be a "tough go" anymore given who it's hitting - mostly young healthy people who experience mild symptoms. FL is definitely experiencing that right now, but it's not really a big deal or even a major topic of conversation here anymore.

See item 2 above.

Another theory is that COVID was so much deadlier because we had no natural population immunities to it. Once upon a time the flu was much deadlier too, but became much less so as more people built up resistance via vaccines and natural exposures. Look back 2 years from now and I'd bet a dollar against a dime that we'll experience a similar transition.

Yup.


1. It is interesting. Even in states that "you know who " won many of the vaccine resistant are unlikely to have voted for him. Btw, the media and certain other people have changed lanes from blaming "you know who " to pointing the finger at Fox News. In particular Tucker and Laura. Neither of whom has ever told anyone not to get vaccinated.

2. I'm sorry but we have over a year and hundreds of millions of recipients. The "negative" outcomes are very few and far between. I don't see the numbers changing.

3. Not all the unvaccinated "took their chances ". Some had it already and THOUGHT they were protected. Some weren't able to get their shots in time. Some thought there were reasons not to get vaxxed. I think you are being a bit flippant with your language. More importantly the consensus on vaccination has not been stagnant. It has changed and will probably continue to do so.

4. NONE are available NOW.

5. Define "big deal ". It seems to me that it was a "big deal" for the survivors of those who died.

6. Sorry Rick but the numbers say: Get Vaxxed. If not for yourself then for anyone and everyone you come in contact with.

7. Hmmmm. Let's see - over 600,000 deaths in the U.S. alone concentrated in the elderly and those with serious co-morbidities. The numbers ARE similar to those of the Spanish Flu ( 1917-1920 ) and the Hong Kong Flu ( 1968-9 ). The DIFFERENCE is that both Flu strains were much more deadly with younger people. Especially the Spanish Flu. With the Spanish Flu there was no vaccine. I don't think there was an effective vaccine for the Hong Kong Flu. At the time flu vaccine science was still in the development stage. I haven't had the Flu in 40 years. Part of the reason is I get a Flu Shot
EVERY year. Today we still have the Flu. There are different variants every year.
With Covid we are literally learning as we go. What Fauci et. al. were saying a year ago is now already well out of date and sometimes just plain WRONG.
Just to illustrate and NOT to try and make any kind of ( God Help Us ! ) political point, a year ago both Joe and Kamala said they would not get the Covid vaccination. I am deliberately leaving out what they said was their reason. Now they are both pushing the vaccines and rightly so imho.
More and more info is coming out about the origins of Covid. Point being it is NOT the flu. It behaves differently from flu viruses. Unlike the flu it is not as deadly among the young and healthy.

Btw, do you get a flu shot ? What about your children ?

8. Agreed.

LoveyD
07-21-2021, 10:01 AM
So anyhow...

My city's new case numbers were below 60 back in early June. Since they lifted the mask mandate, now we are back up to over 1,400 new cases daily.

The delta variant is no joke.
People who are fully vaxxed are still getting covid.
Children are getting it and winding up on ventilators.

https://www.localmemphis.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/dozen-mississippi-children-icu-10-on-life-support-covid-19/522-f63115ec-b959-4bb4-bc41-09e1e23a714a

Masks work. I am still wearing one if I do go out. Even if I am vaccinated. Don't want to contract a breakthrough infection. Although I likely won't die if I catch covid, I still don't want it.
I will be staying home a lot more until these numbers decrease.

miss.a.p1600
07-21-2021, 10:32 AM
I agree Lovey

People getting too comfortable and basically over the restrictions.

I personally think if you’re taking precautions regardless of vaccine/covid recovery status (social distance at least but wear masks when you can; sanitize your hands especially after touching communal surfaces/objects; avoid maskless crowds) it will help people continue to stay healthy.

Your link posted about the rise of covid in MS. Their governor refused to implement mask mandates DURING the height of the pandemic so this is no shock that Mississippians are suffering now as a result of their lackadaisical approach to a contagious n even deadly virus

Eric Stoner
07-21-2021, 11:15 AM
Well we can argue about mask usage and its effectiveness. Except for the N95 mask, most masks will not protect the wearer. The N95 might and it will be effective in stopping aerosol droplets FROM the wearer. Medical masks are better than nothing. Bandanas and gaiters are useless.

It would be far more effective if more people got vaccinated.

While there is cause for concern I don't see any reason to panic. The CDC says that over 100 million Americans have had Covid and thus have varying degrees of immunity. Over 160 million Americans are now fully vaccinated and millions more have gotten at least one shot. Folks, that meets several definitions of "herd immunity". The reason I think we would be foolish to "don't worry, be happy " is the variants.

The morbidity and hospitalization numbers for the Delta variant are MUCH lower than the numbers from last year. As Eagle has shown , there are "hot spots" but those are based on "cases" i.e. numbers of people testing positive. Not all of whom have any symptoms. Most of whom are not seriously ill and few of whom are in a hospital. A reason being they are overwhelmingly YOUNG. Most are totally unvaccinated. Rather than revive the mask fetish I think we ought to encourage vaccination.

Some more numbers: According to Fauci and the CDC the Delta variant accounts for 83% of current Covid cases.
Among 157 million fully vaccinated people there were 4,909 hospitalizations and only 988 deaths. Fauci also says the vaccines curtail transmissibility of the virus. Not sure how he gets there but that's what he just told Congress in his most recent testimony. He also said there is a difference between clinically apparent disease vs. symptomatic infection. We have seen little of the former and an expected amount of the latter among the VACCINATED. He testified that there always have been and always will be "breakthrough infections" with every disease and associated vaccine.

Btw, Texas has just reported its first case of the Lambda variant. Anyone have anything on the transmissibility and lethality of the Lambda and Epsilon variants ? I'm not trying to be cute. Before Covid becomes just another "flu" we will probably exhaust the entire Greek Alphabet to name the variants. Current PC frowns on using Geographic nomenclature.

LoveyD
07-21-2021, 01:29 PM
@Missap it's sad to see such a lack of common sense because it's only prolonging the problem.

miss.a.p1600
07-21-2021, 07:17 PM
@Missap it's sad to see such a lack of common sense because it's only prolonging the problem.


Reminds me of this guy


https://youtu.be/0JPRvxTjfOk?t=43

eagle2
07-21-2021, 09:49 PM
Would you jump off a bridge if a scientist told you that it was safe and medically necessary? ;D

There would never be a scientific consensus that jumping off a bridge is safe and medically necessary, because science is based on facts and evidence obtained through observation, testing, and experimentation.



Before you start ranting that I'm comparing that to taking a vaccine, I'm not. I'm just pointing out that we should always use our own common sense filter when evaluating advice from anyone, including scientists, lawyers and others. The mortality and hospitalization stats are widely available - no science degree needed, lol. Young healthy people, those who have resistance from prior infections and the parents of 12-15 year old kids (Yes, one of the vaccines is now approved for adolescents) can read the stats for themselves and come to their own conclusions.


You're not using your common sense filter. You're using political bias and fear of something you know very little about. Here's what a doctor had to say, based on her experience in treating "young, healthy people" for covid:

https://www.facebook.com/brytneysnowcobia/posts/10200951240955876



I've made a LOT of progress encouraging people to get vaccinated lately!!! Do you want to know how? I'm admitting young healthy people to the hospital with very serious COVID infections. One of the last things they do before they're intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I'm sorry, but it's too late. A few days later when I call time of death, I hug their family members and I tell them the best way to honor their loved one is to go get vaccinated and encourage everyone they know to do the same.




Also, contrary to the outlandish stories in a number of rags, there are plenty of seemingly normal people who have weighed the risks vs. rewards and made their own informed decisions. That includes a solid majority of parents of adolescents nationwide. The fringe types being gleefully highlighted in places like Yahoo and Puffpost are not the norm. Now yes Southerners and Midwesterners tend to have more independent streaks, but don't confuse that for lack of intellect. Indeed they seem to understand the mortality stats better than you do, which is something to consider as you keep trying to find emotionally satisfying labels for them. ::)


They're making their own decisions, but they're not informed. You're confusing lack of intellect for an independent streak. You don't understand the mortality stats at all. You're far more likely to die from covid than you are from one of the covid vaccines.



And yes, our vaccine history has been littered with hiccups and missteps, including Eric's favorite polio example. The versions we use today went through several iterations over time and are not the ones that first came out, which along with a myriad of drugs we no longer use were also promoted as safe and effective - until they weren't. This is also something that others seem to understand this better than you, lol.


The oral dose of the polio vaccine contained a live virus, in which case there were rare cases where children got polio after getting the vaccine. The vaccine still prevented far more cases than it caused. Children exposed to the polio virus are more than a thousand times more likely to get polio than children who are vaccinated. The covid vaccines have also prevented far more deaths than they have caused, especially considering there have been no deaths attributed to the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines.

eagle2
07-21-2021, 10:02 PM
Well we can argue about mask usage and its effectiveness. Except for the N95 mask, most masks will not protect the wearer. The N95 might and it will be effective in stopping aerosol droplets FROM the wearer. Medical masks are better than nothing. Bandanas and gaiters are useless.


or we could look at test results to see how effective masks are. Non-woven polypropylene masks are very effective.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHVyy08L2gM

eagle2
07-21-2021, 10:40 PM
I quoted from this doctor before, but here's her whole quote:

https://www.facebook.com/brytneysnowcobia/posts/10200951240955876



I've made a LOT of progress encouraging people to get vaccinated lately!!! Do you want to know how? I'm admitting young healthy people to the hospital with very serious COVID infections. One of the last things they do before they're intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I'm sorry, but it's too late. A few days later when I call time of death, I hug their family members and I tell them the best way to honor their loved one is to go get vaccinated and encourage everyone they know to do the same. They cry. And they tell me they didn't know. They thought it was a hoax. They thought it was political. They thought because they had a certain blood type or a certain skin color they wouldn't get as sick. They thought it was 'just the flu'. But they were wrong. And they wish they could go back. But they can't. So they thank me and they go get the vaccine. And I go back to my office, write their death note, and say a small prayer that this loss will save more lives.

As always, I am an open book. Please bring me your questions and I will tell you everything I know and everything I don't.

It's not too late, but some day it might be.

rickdugan
07-22-2021, 05:07 AM
3. Not all the unvaccinated "took their chances ". Some had it already and THOUGHT they were protected. Some weren't able to get their shots in time. Some thought there were reasons not to get vaxxed. I think you are being a bit flippant with your language. More importantly the consensus on vaccination has not been stagnant. It has changed and will probably continue to do so.

5. Define "big deal ". It seems to me that it was a "big deal" for the survivors of those who died.

6. Sorry Rick but the numbers say: Get Vaxxed. If not for yourself then for anyone and everyone you come in contact with.

7. Hmmmm. Let's see - over 600,000 deaths in the U.S. alone concentrated in the elderly and those with serious co-morbidities. The numbers ARE similar to those of the Spanish Flu ( 1917-1920 ) and the Hong Kong Flu ( 1968-9 ). The DIFFERENCE is that both Flu strains were much more deadly with younger people. Especially the Spanish Flu. With the Spanish Flu there was no vaccine. I don't think there was an effective vaccine for the Hong Kong Flu. At the time flu vaccine science was still in the development stage. I haven't had the Flu in 40 years. Part of the reason is I get a Flu Shot
EVERY year. Today we still have the Flu. There are different variants every year.
With Covid we are literally learning as we go. What Fauci et. al. were saying a year ago is now already well out of date and sometimes just plain WRONG.
Just to illustrate and NOT to try and make any kind of ( God Help Us ! ) political point, a year ago both Joe and Kamala said they would not get the Covid vaccination. I am deliberately leaving out what they said was their reason. Now they are both pushing the vaccines and rightly so imho.
More and more info is coming out about the origins of Covid. Point being it is NOT the flu. It behaves differently from flu viruses. Unlike the flu it is not as deadly among the young and healthy.

Btw, do you get a flu shot ? What about your children ?

Eric, at it's core, the crux of our disagreement stems around the belief that the vaccine has a sufficient safety record. You believe it does because of how many people have received doses. I want to see a longer stretch of time to assess potential long-term complications and to collect accurate side-effect data before I give it to my young healthy kids, who are at virtually no risk from COVID anyway. You believe that safety is adequately established and that my kids are part of some social pact obligating them to get the jab for the sake of others.

There are subjective elements to these arguments. At the end of the day, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

rickdugan
07-22-2021, 05:18 AM
There would never be a scientific consensus that jumping off a bridge is safe and medically necessary, because science is based on facts and evidence obtained through observation, testing, and experimentation.

You're not using your common sense filter. You're using political bias and fear of something you know very little about. Here's what a doctor had to say, based on her experience in treating "young, healthy people" for covid:

https://www.facebook.com/brytneysnowcobia/posts/10200951240955876

They're making their own decisions, but they're not informed. You're confusing lack of intellect for an independent streak. You don't understand the mortality stats at all. You're far more likely to die from covid than you are from one of the covid vaccines.

The oral dose of the polio vaccine contained a live virus, in which case there were rare cases where children got polio after getting the vaccine. The vaccine still prevented far more cases than it caused. Children exposed to the polio virus are more than a thousand times more likely to get polio than children who are vaccinated. The covid vaccines have also prevented far more deaths than they have caused, especially considering there have been no deaths attributed to the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines.

Eagle, enough with the crazy town one-offs. COVID is less deadly to young people than the common flu. The year-over-year stats amply bear this out.

You're also missing one of the key points for people who are waiting it out, which is a desire for longer-term data. They want to reduce concerns over the X factor - what happens to vaccinated people over time, if anything. This is especially true when it comes to giving it to their otherwise young and healthy kids. This is hardly an irrational desire given the vaccine's short track record and relatively novel delivery system, even if you personally disagree with the need for longer-term data. We've gone round and round on this now.

See what I posted above to Eric - the same applies here. Though at least Eric has the emotional maturity and intellectual capacity to see the other side of this argument, even if he disagrees with it. He's not so limited that his knee jerk reaction is to assume that anyone with an opposing view must be under the influence of some political, religious and/or conspiracy movement. I mean 'cause if that was the case then the parents of an overwhelming majority of the nation's adolescents must be under one of those influences because vaccination rates in the 12-15 age range are extremely low. Just sayin. ;)

Eric Stoner
07-22-2021, 07:43 AM
or we could look at test results to see how effective masks are. Non-woven polypropylene masks are very effective.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHVyy08L2gM

Your link confirms what I have been saying.
I was right about bandanas and gaiters. They leak like sieves and are useless.
Masks with valves = no good.
Cotton masks = 600 thread count or higher afford some protection.
High quality multi-layer medical/surgical masks with at least one layer of polypropylene are good.
The N95 is the best.
All of the above listed effective masks will work if they FIT properly i.e. a snug fit is essential.

Eric Stoner
07-22-2021, 07:58 AM
Eagle, enough with the crazy town one-offs. COVID is less deadly to young people than the common flu. The year-over-year stats amply bear this out.

You're also missing one of the key points for people who are waiting it out, which is a desire for longer-term data. They want to reduce concerns over the X factor - what happens to vaccinated people over time, if anything. This is especially true when it comes to giving it to their otherwise young and healthy kids. This is hardly an irrational desire given the vaccine's short track record and relatively novel delivery system, even if you personally disagree with the need for longer-term data. We've gone round and round on this now.

See what I posted above to Eric - the same applies here. Though at least Eric has the emotional maturity and intellectual capacity to see the other side of this argument, even if he disagrees with it. He's not so limited that his knee jerk reaction is to assume that anyone with an opposing view must be under the influence of some political, religious and/or conspiracy movement. I mean 'cause if that was the case then the parents of an overwhelming majority of the nation's adolescents must be under one of those influences because vaccination rates in the 12-15 age range are extremely low. Just sayin. ;)

Just a suggestion. Why don't you and Eagle just agree to disagree ? I get it that you are waiting for more data on vaccination. I assume you want certainty that the vaccine will not harm your children. It seems to me that you will be waiting forever for that kind of certainty because it is impossible to achieve. Very little in science and medicine is certain. It is all varying degrees of probability. Some probabilities being so high as to be almost certain. While not "long term" , I have argued that we have seen that kind of probability with the various Covid vaccines.

LoveyD
07-22-2021, 08:16 AM
Why must everything be an argument?

Is this the covid debate thread?

Is this a high school debating team?

Wtf? So fucking annoying.

ANYHOW....

Back to covid *** news***

Hospitalizations and cases in my state have been increasing due to the Delta variant. Today my city reported over 500 new cases.

I was going to go to LA for a concert this weekend. But not really feeling it. I've been hearing about fully vaccinated people having breakthrough infections and although I most likely won't die from covid, that doesn't mean I'm ok with getting it.

Ok. Back to Ladies Only I go, where we don't have to incite debates to get attention or siphon fuel from others...