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Genoveve
02-07-2022, 12:00 PM
I had a PRIVATE PM discussion with a fellow S-Webber about Hef's circle of friends and ALLEGATIONS made against a few of them. I hope you nare not implying that I somehow condone any of the alleged behavior ? We also discussed that except for Bogdonavich , nobody ever made those sort of allegations against Hefner. Stratten supposedly complained to female Playboy employee that hefner coerced her into having sex in the Grotto who in turn told someone else and eventually someone , somehow related the story to Bogdonavich. Not my idea of a relaible and credible story without anything else behind it. I also said that I was not aware of any other coercion allegations against Hefner.

Reiterating yourself, nothing for me to respond to.


I hope you nare not implying that I somehow condone any of the alleged behavior ?

I'm not.


For the last time , Holly's book confirmed a lot of stories I was told BEFORE her book ever came out. The credibility of those stories was if anything bolstered by Holly in her book. Unless they were all lying or all agreed pre-publication on the same fables.

Here we go again. I already addressed this.


I don't know why you call them "ex-nemeses ". None ever experessed any jealousy or bad feeling toward Holly.

Because I'm going off of what Holly has said, not your ex galpals.


Who supposedly "whitewashed " what ? I've heard stories about Hefner and the Mansion long before ever meeting any of his ex-girlfriends. They conformed some and told me others. Are you trying to say that they all made up the same stuff involving the same people ? They all said the same thing about Hefner : "He could be your best friend or worst enemy ". I NEVER accused anyone of telling "fairy tales ". None blamed Holly or Hefner for their choices or lot in life. I NEVER said that any of them had abuse in their past.

Already addressed this.


Who Before leaving Hefner , Holly had nothing but nice things to say about him. She even denied that he needed Viagra to perform although at the same time Hefner was singing its praises . Letterman gave him a whole jar full.

Already addressed this.


Was Holly telling the truth then or in her book. I don't know and neither do you.

That's what's interesting to me when you claim to be 'unbiased' and 'balanced.' You very readily accept the hearsay from your ex galpals but then express nothing but suspicion and doubt at any hearsay that contradicts what they told you. That's not being unbiased. I can accept that you genuinely like to think you're being unbiased, but I don't think anyone else viewing your posts would agree with you there.

Some other things I have noticed:


Holly felt like the ugly duckling and got Hef to pay for her plastic surgeries. Please note the plural.

Why is noting the plural important? (Also the only surgery I remember her saying Playboy funded was her nose job, correct me if I'm wrong)


I'm still trying to understand exactly what her complaints are and/or how she was "exploited ". She was NOT a teenager.

Only teenagers can be exploited. Got it.


And eventually she left Hefner and nobody tried to stop her.
She wrote a tell all and nobody threatened her in any way , shape or form afaik.

How could they have stopped her?

Also another thing that occurred to me when it comes to the people saying 'she could have left if it was so bad.....' She DID leave. GND was a huge success, another season was coming up, Holly hated Kendra and Kendra was gone. And she bailed out.

Eric Stoner
02-07-2022, 12:39 PM
Reiterating yourself, nothing for me to respond to.



I'm not.



Here we go again. I already addressed this.



Because I'm going off of what Holly has said, not your ex galpals.



Already addressed this.



Already addressed this.



That's what's interesting to me when you claim to be 'unbiased' and 'balanced.' You very readily accept the hearsay from your ex galpals but then express nothing but suspicion and doubt at any hearsay that contradicts what they told you. That's not being unbiased. I can accept that you genuinely like to think you're being unbiased, but I don't think anyone else viewing your posts would agree with you there.

Some other things I have noticed:



Why is noting the plural important? (Also the only surgery I remember her saying Playboy funded was her nose job, correct me if I'm wrong)



Only teenagers can be exploited. Got it.



How could they have stopped her?

Also another thing that occurred to me when it comes to the people saying 'she could have left if it was so bad.....' She DID leave. GND was a huge success, another season was coming up, Holly hated Kendra and Kendra was gone. And she bailed out.



This is pointless. We are mostly talking past each other.
You are entitled to your opinions. I'm entitled to mine. Have a nice day.

Genoveve
02-07-2022, 01:23 PM
^^Thank you I will! Especially since I believe another episode is airing tonight.

Eric Stoner
02-07-2022, 01:26 PM
^^Thank you I will! Especially since I believe another episode is airing tonight.

It is. Just wish it and The Gilded Age on HBO were not on at the same time.

DeathAndTaxes
02-07-2022, 08:37 PM
Holly left the mansion in Feb 2009 and started an independent gig in Vegas, Hefner visited her in July 2009 and she even put him on stage, does she address this in her book?

https://www.broadwayworld.com/las-vegas/article/Photo-Flash-Hugh-Hefner-Visits-PEEP-SHOW-In-Las-Vegas-20090720

Eric Stoner
02-08-2022, 10:10 AM
Holly left the mansion in Feb 2009 and started an independent gig in Vegas, Hefner visited her in July 2009 and she even put him on stage, does she address this in her book?

https://www.broadwayworld.com/las-vegas/article/Photo-Flash-Hugh-Hefner-Visits-PEEP-SHOW-In-Las-Vegas-20090720

I read the book a few years ago but don't remember if she said anything about her Vegas act or Hefner catching same.

Btw, last night's episode was very troubling. Hefner himself has admitted to drug use but NOT to that extent. Did you see his affect ? Classic meth head. Bad case of the herky jerkies and ADD.
He admits to heavy use of dexies and he was swigging like 20 Pepsis a day ( the drink , not coke lol ) That's a LOT of stimulant between the dexedrine and the caffeine. After his stroke in '84 ? or somewhere around there, he slowed it way down. Still used stuff but nothing like before.

I am more concerned with all the collateral damage around his drug use. Which he is heavily responsible for imho. The Bobbie Arnstein story is a field that has been plowed over many times. She definitely protected him. Whether she was threatened to do so by Hefner or at his behest or direction is a heavy lift with no real evidence behind it.

Genoveve
02-08-2022, 12:40 PM
Holly left the mansion in Feb 2009 and started an independent gig in Vegas, Hefner visited her in July 2009 and she even put him on stage, does she address this in her book?

https://www.broadwayworld.com/las-vegas/article/Photo-Flash-Hugh-Hefner-Visits-PEEP-SHOW-In-Las-Vegas-20090720

Yes. Chapter 15.

LoveyD
02-08-2022, 01:13 PM
Fun fact: my kid went to the same jr. high and high school as Kendra.

whirlerz
02-08-2022, 02:32 PM
Fun fact: my kid went to the same jr. high and high school as Kendra.

Wow, cool!
Did he know her at all?

Vyanka
02-09-2022, 12:26 PM
Hef, lived a full happy life til the end being a piece of shit with no repercussion. What a shame. PB knew how to market it's brand!

DeathAndTaxes
02-09-2022, 02:03 PM
Yes. Chapter 15.

Thank you, I went ahead and read her account.

1) The visit to peepshow was mostly for free publicity for her show.

2) She later went to his birthday party to rub in the success of her show over GND that was cancelled.

whirlerz
02-09-2022, 02:14 PM
Has anyone watched Holly's YouTube? She does her reactions to various GND episodes, what's in her bags,? & answers to assorted topics etc

Genoveve
02-09-2022, 03:31 PM
^^I love her channel when she makes the type of content that I like, the videos where she's not are a bit of a snoozefest for me. Some people you can watch do anything or listen to talk about anything and she's not one of those people for me.

What is always odd to me is that when you read the comments under her GND videos they're so full of girls reminiscing about the show saying stuff like 'Omg I wanted to be one of the girlfriends so bad!' 'Omg I wanted your life so bad!' 'Omg your lives looked so fun!' and I so do not get that. That show's heyday was when I was in my late teens, I might have even started stripping while it was still on the air, and I never liked the show or thought their lives seemed like they'd actually be fun at all. But the show was hugely popular so I guess a lot of people were hoodwinked.


2) She later went to his birthday party to rub in the success of her show over GND that was cancelled.

I didn't quite get that impression, but I get it: You guys hate Holly Madison. It cracks me up how much men especially can't stand her. How people respond to Holly is becoming like a Rorschach test to me.

I actually remember a convo with my dad way back then when the show was on the air and he was asking me which girlfriend was my favorite or least favorite, I said I didn't like any of them but hated Kendra. He said he liked them all except for Holly because she 'seemed like she had an agenda' LOL, typical male. I didn't think of it then obviously but if he said that now I would be like "Why aren't you put-off by Hef's agenda?" Also now we know that reality TV is not real---well, some of us do.

LoveyD
02-09-2022, 03:52 PM
Wow, cool!
Did he know her at all?

No, he attended years after she did.

DeathAndTaxes
02-09-2022, 03:55 PM
I didn't quite get that impression, but I get it: You guys hate Holly Madison. It cracks me up how much men especially can't stand her. How people respond to Holly is becoming like a Rorschach test to me.

I don't hate Holly, if anything I have come around to her side after being on Hefner's side.

If you really don't remember then check it out again, it was actually quite comical how she was in control of the situation the last time she saw him.

Also I just got her audio-book narrated by her, her voice inflections and excitement recounting that scene is probably what was missing on paper.

Genoveve
02-09-2022, 04:59 PM
If you really don't remember then check it out again, it was actually quite comical how she was in control of the situation the last time she saw him.

Also I just got her audio-book narrated by her, her voice inflections and excitement recounting that scene is probably what was missing on paper.

Did read on paper, definitely detected the smugness after the situation turned sour, was not under the impression that that was why she went to the event but that she did because she was still working with E!.

DeathAndTaxes
02-09-2022, 05:39 PM
Did read on paper, definitely detected the smugness after the situation turned sour, was not under the impression that that was why she went to the event but that she did because she was still working with E!.

I mean wouldn't you? I certainly would have, her show was on the air and his got cancelled, E! might have wanted to but she clearly did enjoy the new dynamics. She also went to visit him after Crystal ran away. Holly is not a saint, but she is not a bad person at all and I don't think trying to treat her like some perfect being is more humanizing than say listening to her account on the matter and realizing how wicked she was being.


It is actually moments like that that made me dismiss the whole "agenda" thing, this seems natural.


Lastly the thing that made me turn to her side of things is that she was unhappy, people have this jealousy barrier where they pretend somebody as beautiful as her could ever really be unhappy or how dare she complain about things. When in reality it is the expectation/demand that they should be happy that creates this empathy void, I noticed this in a few of my partners, the first step on the road to feeling better is empathy about them not getting empathy.

Genoveve
02-09-2022, 06:06 PM
I mean wouldn't you? I certainly would have, her show was on the air and his got cancelled, E! might have wanted to but she clearly did enjoy the new dynamics.

Would I have gone to that event just to rub my success in their face? No, but I would have done what she said she did which is go for the sake of her show and fulfilling her contractual obligations, and I would also be tickled about things not working out for Krystal and GND.


I don't think trying to treat her like some perfect being is more humanizing than say listening to her account on the matter and realizing how wicked she was being.

I think my interpretation is closer to what Holly said, whether you think that interpretation equals me assuming she is a "perfect being" or not. I also said I detected her smugness, can "perfect beings" be smug?


Holly is not a saint

Never said she was. I don't think me trying to make arguments for why I don't believe she is simply an opportunist and a liar, and me saying why I don't believe Hefner was just some helpless innocent victim of hers, equals me canonizing her.

I actually think there's some things she fudges, but they aren't things that have had to do with the subject matter of this thread.

whirlerz
02-09-2022, 06:08 PM
I saw something on YouTube about Holly, Kendra/Hank, Bridget & a whole bunch visiting him, on the the wedding day after Crystal ran away, he had a movie night, showing, "Runaway Bride"

DeathAndTaxes
02-09-2022, 06:41 PM
I saw something on YouTube about Holly, Kendra/Hank, Bridget & a whole bunch visiting him, on the the wedding day after Crystal ran away, he had a movie night, showing, "Runaway Bride"

Yeah that was part of the recollection she narrated, this was where she said she last saw him not the birthday party.

To me she had most of the power in the dynamic at the very end, but of course does not negate how unhappy she was when at the mansion, but hopefully it was just closure.

Djoser
02-15-2022, 09:30 AM
...they're so full of girls reminiscing about the show saying stuff like 'Omg I wanted to be one of the girlfriends so bad!' 'Omg I wanted your life so bad!' 'Omg your lives looked so fun!' and I so do not get that.

Christ this was half the women I knew for years, including right here on SW :D


...Hef's agenda?"

Yeah I tried bringing that up but usually the women were gushing about all the opportunities they got and the guys were all about his pioneering sexual freedom. For him I guess ;D


Also now we know that reality TV is not real---well, some of us do.

I knew that from the getgo, but I've always loathed television. Which kinda sets you apart from the rest of society sometimes.


I never knew what Holly or Kendra or the other ones on the show were all about, because I never watched it. (Or any TV lol) I do remember seeing some pictures of Kendra, maybe in a playboy magazine or maybe online.

Now they are saying he was looking for snuff films, jesus christ...:O

Eric Stoner
02-15-2022, 09:50 AM
Has anyone hear actually seen a "snuff film" ? One of the greatest myths of all time. I am NOT talking about gruesome and disgusting depictions of violent death aka slasher films. The stuff put out by ISIS and other terrorists doesn't count.

Every time LE or anti-porn fanatics were challenged to come up with an actual copy of a snuff film they couldn't do it. Andrea Dworkin and Catherine McKinnon were offered a million dollars to produce a copy of one. So was WAP i.e. "Women Against Pornography ".

At least in his magazine and in his public statements Hefner consistently spoke out against the coupling of violence and sex as in magazines like Hustler.

Btw , I know several ladies who had roles on so-called Reality T.V. It's ALL scripted folks. Sorry. Just one piece of evidence is to consider how long it takes to set up just one shot of one scene. I've been on sets and watched many shoots. Nothing spontaneous at all. It's why I haven't watched one minute of any so-called Reality show and never will.

pinkvelvetxo
02-15-2022, 11:00 AM
Has anyone hear actually seen a "snuff film" ? One of the greatest myths of all time. I am NOT talking about gruesome and disgusting depictions of violent death aka slasher films. The stuff put out by ISIS and other terrorists doesn't count.

Every time LE or anti-porn fanatics were challenged to come up with an actual copy of a snuff film they couldn't do it. Andrea Dworkin and Catherine McKinnon were offered a million dollars to produce a copy of one. So was WAP i.e. "Women Against Pornography ".

At least in his magazine and in his public statements Hefner consistently spoke out against the coupling of violence and sex as in magazines like Hustler.

Btw , I know several ladies who had roles on so-called Reality T.V. It's ALL scripted folks. Sorry. Just one piece of evidence is to consider how long it takes to set up just one shot of one scene. I've been on sets and watched many shoots. Nothing spontaneous at all. It's why I haven't watched one minute of any so-called Reality show and never will.

I felt like he used sex as a drug, needing more and more to get a fix. He did speak out about sex and violence, bc his magazine was competing with them and he had a different market. But clearly the real Hefner was no different than his competition in his personal life. It was a false persona.
Bill Cosby also spoke up against dirty comedians. R Kelly with gospel music.
It’s men who know they have a problem but hide behind a facade so no one suspects anything. I actually look at the magazine and the man differently . He wanted to be the suave, classy playboy who can teach men how to get a gorgeous woman(magazine) but was instead, a gross sleazy little man who kept his women drugged and used manipulation to get them to stay with him, then pimped them out to his friends(the main reason he had any high level friends). Then makes his girls traffic drugs for him. And we are defending this guy…why? Bc a bunch of guys jerked off to his magazine in the 70/80s? Why is this guy an icon?

Eric Stoner
02-15-2022, 11:52 AM
Defending him ? I have not.

An icon ? Not to me.

He had an admittedly freewheeling lifestyle and arguably behaved as thought the "rules" did not apply to him. That seems certain. Likewise he was a sexual adventurer aka thrill seeker who admitted to pushing boundaries as far as he could get away with. I think you are right and that sex was like a drug for him. He progressed from being married and fathering Christie to having genuine girlfriends and "dating" to becoming a harem master and pimp after he moved to Holmby Hills.

He was also a strong supporter of the First Amendment ; reform of draconian drug laws ; women's rights ( admittedly incongruously ) ; civil rights - black performers were always welcome at his clubs and numerous charities. He was a major fundraiser for and supporter of Children Of The Night just to name one.

Genoveve
02-15-2022, 04:27 PM
Defending him ? I have not.

And yet multiple people seem to be under the impression that you are.......I wonder why this is the case? How many times have you claimed to not be defending him now? Kind of weird that you'd have to do that so many times.

eagle2
02-15-2022, 06:23 PM
Defending him ? I have not.


Your statement below contradicts your statement above.



He was also a strong supporter of the First Amendment ; reform of draconian drug laws ; women's rights ( admittedly incongruously ) ; civil rights - black performers were always welcome at his clubs and numerous charities. He was a major fundraiser for and supporter of Children Of The Night just to name one.

Eric Stoner
02-16-2022, 07:54 AM
Has anyone said he was all bad ? Almost everyone who knew him said he could be "your best friend " and was very generous. He is also an ACCUSED predator and exploiter. I fail to see the contradiction in criticizing his purported negatives and praising his DOCUMENTED and PROVEN good works.

Genoveve
02-16-2022, 03:10 PM
Has anyone said he was all bad ? Almost everyone who knew him said he could be "your best friend " and was very generous. He is also an ACCUSED predator and exploiter.

People usually aren't 'one note.' Understanding that people are multifaceted is the absolute most basic psychology. John Wayne Gayce used to perform as a clown for kids for free at hospitals and charity events. Ted Bundy's long time gf and her daughter said he was a wonderful guy and a great family man. ?


I fail to see the contradiction in criticizing his purported negatives and praising his DOCUMENTED and PROVEN good works.

What would this be contradicting or not contradicting?

eagle2
02-16-2022, 05:04 PM
Has anyone said he was all bad ? Almost everyone who knew him said he could be "your best friend " and was very generous. He is also an ACCUSED predator and exploiter. I fail to see the contradiction in criticizing his purported negatives and praising his DOCUMENTED and PROVEN good works.

If you rape women, and allow your premises to be used by other men to drug and rape women, then yes, you're all bad. I find his actions indefensible.

pinkvelvetxo
02-17-2022, 05:18 AM
Has anyone said he was all bad ? Almost everyone who knew him said he could be "your best friend " and was very generous. He is also an ACCUSED predator and exploiter. I fail to see the contradiction in criticizing his purported negatives and praising his DOCUMENTED and PROVEN good works.

I’m sure he was generous and could be your best friend, that’s Hollywood. And business. People are nice to others for favors. They were business relationships. We see this a lot with men who run successful companies and abuse their wives, no one is all bad or all good but i definetly believe these women that there was a bad side to him. Even his son said that his father strayed away from what the magazine was actually supposed to be and wasn’t really the “girl next store” image anymore.

Playboy is owned by different people now and they have a new site that’s similar to onlyfans called “centerfold” . I’m thinking…they could’ve been the leader in transitioning online to a cam site(with maybe features Playboy models) ten years ago I wonder why they didn’t.

DeathAndTaxes
02-17-2022, 11:39 AM
Wicked lol, maybe this is just lost in translation because it's not my first language but wicked seems like too strong of a strong word for the situation you're discussing, like you look at the things he's accused of and then what she retold of the occasion and you come to the conclusion she must be wicked because she internally may have had a bit of an attitude at the event she was required to attend. The threshold for women to be called wicked seems incredibly low, god forbid you show or even just feel something other than gratitude, empathy and warm feelings towards the people or contexts where you were treated in a bad or questionable way you wicked, wicked, woman.

I don't believe in saints or devils, nor do I believe that all trauma must be handled by some manual that does not in any way understand human beings.

As a personal anecdote a woman drugged me, quite traumatic and all that and clearly no one took it seriously, I still see her a lot, so how do I not go crazy or suffer? by doing the exact opposite of going into a shell, by rejecting her repeatedly but never really closing the door, always making her think that there is a chance, but no. It feels so good I have done it like 10 times already, it feels wicked that no man rejects her sexually, but I do. I could never reclaim anything by just avoiding.

Eric Stoner
02-22-2022, 09:11 AM
If you rape women, and allow your premises to be used by other men to drug and rape women, then yes, you're all bad. I find his actions indefensible.

Equating him with mass murderers ? a rapist ? Hmmmm. The latter probably contains some elements of truth. I have no doubt that he used and took advantage of women. Including Sondra who was very young and was supposed to be his girlfriend . I never have and could never treat anyone , let alone a "girlfriend " as he treated her. It is also pretty clear that he did not recognize any limits on his behavior. It was literally almost anything goes. Some of which he admitted to.

I am NOT arguing with anyone who is disgusted and even repulsed by his behavior. There is a LOT of stuff to be disgusted and repulsed by. I AM saying that it is all just allegations against a dead man and that a lot of his accusers have some sort of axe to grind . Particularly the former employees and two of his exes ; Holly and Sondra.

The Linda Lovelace and Stratten stories have been out there for decades. Hefner was concerned about Paul Snider and had him banned from the Mansion and tried to encourage Stratten to break up with and stay away from him. He could have and should have done more to protect her from him imho. Just to protect a Playboy "asset" if not on a purely human level. The Lovelace story is probably true and demonstrates depravity afaic.

Genoveve
02-22-2022, 02:46 PM
I AM saying that it is all just allegations against a dead man and that a lot of his accusers have some sort of axe to grind.

Yeah, you’ve made this pretty clear. I don’t think anyone is under the impression that you feel other than this. ?

Genoveve
02-22-2022, 02:52 PM
Equating him with mass murderers ?.

I don’t know if you’re confusing what eagle wrote with what I did since I’m the one who mentioned 2 murderers(who btw I think would fall under the definition of ‘serial killers’ not “mass murderers”), but if that’s what you think I was doing you misinterpreted what I wrote.

Sam38g
02-22-2022, 03:52 PM
Since he had cameras all over the house, then he also had blackmail on anyone & everyone who partied there.. Which gave him a lot of power & one thing is always true is that absolute power corrupts. Predators are not always mean & horrible to everyone, they chose victims who can not fight back.

Repeatedly saying he was nice, but nice to whom? Major Hollywood stars & powerbrokers... to the off duty police he hired which also could be seen as bribing to help keep victims from pressing charges. He & Cosby opening talked about giving drugs to women to "open their legs" aka RAPE. They both totally thought it was okay to drug & rape women for decades. So I don't care how nice he was to people in power or famous, he raped hundreds of women for decades and got away with it.

How does one defend drugging & raping others? He was besties with other predators...

He was rich, powerful had the police in his pocket & blackmail on probably all of his victims. Because even if they were drugged & raped the videos of it would destroy those women's career forever. She would have been painted a whore and no longer of value by society. Nor would have the police investigated or press charges, especially back then. They just would have passed the tape around & laughed at the victim. It is no wonder that so many waited till he died.

So they all have an ax to grind is the typical bullshit men use to disqualify the victims of crimes that so tired of hearing. Your fantasy of the life he was living was all a lie. How many women came forward & reported Cosby were dismissed for 30 or more years by that same bullshit? How many had to come out before being believed? 51 Cosby was besties & at who's parties for how many decades? Cosby openly told stories & jokes about drugging women and YET the victims has to wait decades before being believed.

How many victims does it take for men like Stoner to believe maybe their favorite celebrity was a rapist & bad person?

eagle2
02-22-2022, 04:05 PM
Equating him with mass murderers ? a rapist ? Hmmmm. The latter probably contains some elements of truth. I have no doubt that he used and took advantage of women. Including Sondra who was very young and was supposed to be his girlfriend . I never have and could never treat anyone , let alone a "girlfriend " as he treated her. It is also pretty clear that he did not recognize any limits on his behavior. It was literally almost anything goes. Some of which he admitted to.


I didn't equate him with mass murderers. I think you're referring to this post by Genoveve:


People usually aren't 'one note.' Understanding that people are multifaceted is the absolute most basic psychology. John Wayne Gayce used to perform as a clown for kids for free at hospitals and charity events. Ted Bundy's long time gf and her daughter said he was a wonderful guy and a great family man. ?


It looks to me that she's pointing out that even the worst people can do nice things or come across as nice people at times, not equating them to Hefner. Just because Hefner was nice to some people or did some nice things, doesn't mean he didn't do horrible things to other people, and it doesn't make the horrible things that he did okay.

SnuffleUffleGrass
02-22-2022, 04:45 PM
It looks to me that she's pointing out that even the worst people can do nice things or come across as nice people at times, not equating them to Hefner. Just because Hefner was nice to some people or did some nice things, doesn't mean he didn't do horrible things to other people, and it doesn't make the horrible things that he did okay.

I'm just mentioning this here to add to the conversation- a LOT of rapists won't even admit to themselves that they are rapists until a tangible consequence happens (arrest, incarceration, or a severe beating.)

Hefner was obviously no angel. He lived the business credo of being 100% business, all the time.

The whole reason Americans keep ruminating over pornography and media is the religious right keeps trying to inject evangelical Christianity into politics.

My warning to you is, if you keep letting people with agendas preach to you about tossing away your rights to enjoy the media you prefer.......You will have a day where you will wake up in a Fascist shithole.

A great writer wrote, "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the Flag and carrying a Cross." Don't let Fascists run your life or tell you what to think.

Eric Stoner
02-23-2022, 08:58 AM
I didn't equate him with mass murderers. I think you're referring to this post by Genoveve:



It looks to me that she's pointing out that even the worst people can do nice things or come across as nice people at times, not equating them to Hefner. Just because Hefner was nice to some people or did some nice things, doesn't mean he didn't do horrible things to other people, and it doesn't make the horrible things that he did okay.

It was my response to several posts. Not just yours. Plus a little sloppiness on my part using "mass murderer " instead of "serial killer".

I am NOT arguing that Hefner was a good guy. Quite the contrary. There are enough documented negatives about him so that I wouldn't let any daughter of mine have anything to do with him. For me , given the sources and lack of documented proof ( as opposed to allegations ) it seems to be a matter of degree, not wrongfulness in kind. Add in positive things said about him ( and some negatives ) from three ( 3 ) of his exes that I personally spoke with and it puts the overall picture into shades of gray. However, all three were with him long after the worst of his abusive and predatory behavior allegedly occurred and after he had divorced Kimberly. Meaning they probably did not see the worst of him.

Genoveve
02-23-2022, 03:22 PM
For me , given the sources and lack of documented proof ( as opposed to allegations ) it seems to be a matter of degree, not wrongfulness in kind.

What does ''It seems to be a matter of degree, not wrongfulness in kind" mean? If we're speaking about 'degrees of abusive,' what degree would you personally put him at?


I am NOT arguing that Hefner was a good guy. Quite the contrary. There are enough documented negatives about him so that I wouldn't let any daughter of mine have anything to do with him.

Okay so then.....


Add in positive things said about him ( and some negatives ) from three ( 3 ) of his exes that I personally spoke with and it puts the overall picture into shades of gray.

.....Why do these alleged positive things make his behavior subjective("gray") to you? You said you're "NOT arguing that Hefner was a good guy. Quite the contrary," so if you feel that you are actually arguing that he is a bad guy(the contrary of a good guy), why are you arguing that the situation is really just a gray area? If you believe he is bad, why are you also saying that the 'good' things you have heard about him prevent you from seeing the "overall picture" as a bad/black one?

eagle2
02-23-2022, 05:40 PM
I still don't think he gets your point, that even the most awful people can behave decently at times.

Eric Stoner
02-24-2022, 08:21 AM
I still don't think he gets your point, that even the most awful people can behave decently at times.

I don't need your help. I got what she was saying thank you very much.

Eric Stoner
02-24-2022, 08:32 AM
What does ''It seems to be a matter of degree, not wrongfulness in kind" mean? If we're speaking about 'degrees of abusive,' what degree would you personally put him at?



Okay so then.....



.....Why do these alleged positive things make his behavior subjective("gray") to you? You said you're "NOT arguing that Hefner was a good guy. Quite the contrary," so if you feel that you are actually arguing that he is a bad guy(the contrary of a good guy), why are you arguing that the situation is really just a gray area? If you believe he is bad, why are you also saying that the 'good' things you have heard about him prevent you from seeing the "overall picture" as a bad/black one?

Has anyone accused him of violently raping them ? Of threatening them to have sex ? I don't think so. In criminal law there are gradations of rape and other sexual abuse. It's all wrongful to be sure. I never said otherwise.

As far as judging Hefner as a person, I never met him personally. Neither have you or any other poster in this thread afaik. Judge not lest ye be judged. He's dead. He has to answer for his wrongdoing before a higher judge than you or me.

I have also considered the sources of these allegations. Some of whom have obvious axes to grind and some of whom seem to blame Hefner for decisions that THEY made and/or for their current lot in life. Holly Madison , I am sure , cried all the way to the bank. To her credit , she at least wrote her book while Hefner was still alive. Miki Garcia gave her testimony before Father Bruce Ritter ( remember him ? ) and the other nit wits and prudes of the Meese Commission back in the 1980's.

According to my faith we are ALL sinners. All of us have done bad things. In my experience there is good and bad in everyone and I've learned to look and listen before I judge anyone else.

SnuffleUffleGrass
02-24-2022, 09:29 AM
Just to add to this discussion, a good friend of mine worked as a professional model during the early 1980s and it was common knowledge that caution had to be exercised with certain types of people. Back then if a man was rumored to be a rapist, people would gossip and the gossip usually reached the right ears in time. It was definitely a different era. Women were expected to act "street smart" when doing business with men they did not know well.

I'm not super surprised Hefner developed some hardcore drug habits. The old saying about that kind of lifestyle is "Idle hands are the devil's playground." If all Hefner did was chase skirts around Los Angeles & the greater continental United States, there was bound to be some complaints.

I myself have not had time to watch the documentary on all the terrible things Hugh Hefner did as a person. I can say though that his magazine was important in maintaining a freedom we are supposed to hold onto as free citizens, the freedom of speech.

Eric Stoner
02-24-2022, 11:04 AM
Hefner got his comeuppance as far as his drug use was concerned suffering a moderate stroke in the Mid-1980's. His use of amphetamines and swigging 20 Pepsis a day undoubtedly contributed .

pinkvelvetxo
02-24-2022, 02:10 PM
It’s really important that these women come out and tell what happened.
This happens in the adult industry everywhere bc no one outside of it values these women, but what we put out there sells anyway. It’s a legal job and we all deserve to be protected. These women who probably saw each other as competition back then are finally standing up for each other. If the industry as a whole can do that, then things would be so much better for us.

pinkvelvetxo
02-24-2022, 02:48 PM
Just to add to this discussion, a good friend of mine worked as a professional model during the early 1980s and it was common knowledge that caution had to be exercised with certain types of people. Back then if a man was rumored to be a rapist, people would gossip and the gossip usually reached the right ears in time. It was definitely a different era. Women were expected to act "street smart" when doing business with men they did not know well.

I'm not super surprised Hefner developed some hardcore drug habits. The old saying about that kind of lifestyle is "Idle hands are the devil's playground." If all Hefner did was chase skirts around Los Angeles & the greater continental United States, there was bound to be some complaints.



I myself have not had time to watch the documentary on all the terrible things Hugh Hefner did as a person. I can say though that his magazine was important in maintaining a freedom we are supposed to hold onto as free citizens, the freedom of speech.
So you didn’t have the time to watch it, you can’t really criticize something you haven’t seen.
I don’t think Hugh Hefner gave anyone freedom of speech, most men didn’t read the articles hun they jerked off to the photos and called it a day. I mean freedom to bust a load sure nothing wrong with that, let’s give some other porn producers of that era some credit too then.

Look, you can only be so street smart in life. Everyone makes mistakes, especially when things are covered up. This is why women don’t report abusers, because they’re shamed for it. So if you were put in a shitty situation where you were violated, let’s all just roll our eyes and say “well, should have been more street smart” and not help you. That’s the right thing to do? I mean… I don’t think anyone deserves that.

There was one particular club I avoided working at bc I heard the owner did shitty things to girls. Was I street smart by avoiding it, yes. But that doesn’t mean that guy shouldn’t get some sort of pushback or arrested for it . I mean, if we have freedom of speech, then we have freedom to call people out on their bullshit too.

Genoveve
02-24-2022, 02:49 PM
I got what she was saying thank you very much.

It really seems that you didn't, but okay.


Has anyone accused him of violently raping them ? Of threatening them to have sex ?

Where did I say that he did?


As far as judging Hefner as a person, I never met him personally. Neither have you or any other poster in this thread afaik. Judge not lest ye be judged. He's dead. He has to answer for his wrongdoing before a higher judge than you or me.

According to my faith we are ALL sinners. All of us have done bad things. In my experience there is good and bad in everyone and I've learned to look and listen before I judge anyone else.

Okay...... so if you think it's pointless and morally wrong to judge anyone you haven't met.....why are you in this thread? Especially when you're judging Holly and Sandra? And by your religious logic, are we supposed to ignore all crimes and criminals because they'll be taken care of by god in the afterlife? I think you're reeeeally grasping at straws.

Genoveve
02-24-2022, 03:09 PM
I think all of this stuff about refusing to judge Hefner, refusing to see his behavior as anything other than a gray area, wanting to be unbiased...etc. is funny when you also admit that you believe the Lovelace story. You sure do love to cherry pick when it comes to morals. Throughout this whole thread you've spoken about Holly--about whom the worst accusation you can make is that she's an opportunist--with nothing but suspicion and contempt, but with Hugh Hefner--who you think has encouraged and participated in bestiality--it's a gray area and we have no right to judge him anyway because we are all sinners. Make it make sense.


The Lovelace story is probably true and demonstrates depravity afaic.

^^I also think it's interesting that you worded that in a way that doesn't include the words "I believe" in it. But that's another story.

SnuffleUffleGrass
02-24-2022, 03:13 PM
Look, you can only be so street smart in life. Everyone makes mistakes, especially when things are covered up. This is why women don’t report abusers, because they’re shamed for it. So if you were put in a shitty situation where you were violated, let’s all just roll our eyes and say “well, should have been more street smart” and not help you. That’s the right thing to do? I mean… I don’t think anyone deserves that.

I'm not discounting the allegations. & I'm trying to watch what I post on here out of respect for people I know in the industry and women in general.

I'm old enough to remember seeing Playboy on news stands....everywhere. & Yes believe it or not people read the articles. If someone wanted to whack off more power to them! Back then they were supposed to do that at home or in a hotel room.

In the 1980s anything pornographic got hit with an allegation of being bad for women and bad for wholesome America, which was stupid.

A perfect example of American hypocrisy about sexuality? One of my in-laws made quite a bit of money in the 1980s with a video store chain. A big source of revenue? The Adult Video section of the stores. The American credo for anything having to do with sex drives is "out of sight, out of mind." Americans are too squeamish to have realistic honest conversations about basic human behaviors & act bizarre when people sneak around for sexual gratification.

A healthy libido is a sign of being alive, not "being evil." Jerking off to a photo of an attractive woman does not make a man a bad man.

I'll reiterate this point- Hugh Hefner was a flawed human being. He was successful at having a business. He was in business to help himself, which is the general idea of how to survive in a capitalist economy.

It's too bad his ex-girlfriend didn't speak up sooner. For that I am truly sorry. No one is blaming her for her victimization.

pinkvelvetxo
02-24-2022, 04:00 PM
I'm not discounting the allegations. & I'm trying to watch what I post on here out of respect for people I know in the industry and women in general.

I'm old enough to remember seeing Playboy on news stands....everywhere. & Yes believe it or not people read the articles. If someone wanted to whack off more power to them! Back then they were supposed to do that at home or in a hotel room.

In the 1980s anything pornographic got hit with an allegation of being bad for women and bad for wholesome America, which was stupid.

A perfect example of American hypocrisy about sexuality? One of my in-laws made quite a bit of money in the 1980s with a video store chain. A big source of revenue? The Adult Video section of the stores. The American credo for anything having to do with sex drives is "out of sight, out of mind." Americans are too squeamish to have realistic honest conversations about basic human behaviors & act bizarre when people sneak around for sexual gratification.

A healthy libido is a sign of being alive, not "being evil." Jerking off to a photo of an attractive woman does not make a man a bad man.

I'll reiterate this point- Hugh Hefner was a flawed human being. He was successful at having a business. He was in business to help himself, which is the general idea of how to survive in a capitalist economy.

It's too bad his ex-girlfriend didn't speak up sooner. For that I am truly sorry. No one is blaming her for her victimization.

It’s free on AE…check it out when you have the time. It is way beyond guys jerking off and chasing skirts.