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eagle2
02-24-2022, 04:01 PM
As far as judging Hefner as a person, I never met him personally. Neither have you or any other poster in this thread afaik. Judge not lest ye be judged. He's dead. He has to answer for his wrongdoing before a higher judge than you or me.


What difference does it make whether or not any of us has met him? Rape is wrong. Abusing women is wrong. Forcing a woman to have sex with an animal is wrong.



According to my faith we are ALL sinners. All of us have done bad things. In my experience there is good and bad in everyone and I've learned to look and listen before I judge anyone else.

From reading through this discussion, I would say that most of the people here who have condemned Hefner, have looked and listened.

pinkvelvetxo
02-25-2022, 10:12 AM
They are doing a lot to change their image now which is nice. I really think they had the right idea in the beginning with sexual freedom maybe they can bring it back now. I know they are trying to partner with others in adult entertainment and start their own camsite so who knows maybe they can rebrand and become more relevant again. It’s owned by different people now.

Sam38g
02-25-2022, 10:36 AM
They are doing a lot to change their image now which is nice. I really think they had the right idea in the beginning with sexual freedom maybe they can bring it back now. I know they are trying to partner with others in adult entertainment and start their own camsite so who knows maybe they can rebrand and become more relevant again. It’s owned by different people now.

Thought about signing up to Centerfold, but just can't. Despite who owns or runs it now, it is a legacy of abuse. Not that any of the current porn companies owners are too much better, or at least the ones I know.

As for Eric saying there are degrees of rape & that some rape is more okay than other types. IT IS RAPE & HE RAPED THOUSANDS & HELPED OTHER MEN RAPE EVEN MORE WOMEN. Women who trusted the Playboy brand and the lies of sexual freedom & equality for women. When it was all a lie, but you defended rape. Which reminds me of just how & why predators get away with raping so many women... Eric thinks his charity work makes up for a 1000 or more women being raped is perfectly acceptable as long as a few charities got money for it.

DeathAndTaxes
02-27-2022, 07:18 PM
So I am watching Pam and Tommy and in the episode of Pamela in Wonderland there is an interaction between her and Hefner, it seemed to be sanitized of course but was left wondering if his image will ever take a hit like it did for Cosby. I can certainly see how he was seducing her, telling her that her worth was limitless, while at the same time putting down his girlfriends constantly so they lost their self esteem.

SnuffleUffleGrass
02-27-2022, 07:23 PM
^ I doubt that very much.

Pamela Anderson has always been brighter that she lets on. I'll leave it at that.

DeathAndTaxes
02-27-2022, 07:27 PM
^ Yeah she built an empire for sure, just like Marilyn she was always underestimated.

Eric Stoner
02-28-2022, 09:23 AM
Thought about signing up to Centerfold, but just can't. Despite who owns or runs it now, it is a legacy of abuse. Not that any of the current porn companies owners are too much better, or at least the ones I know.

As for Eric saying there are degrees of rape & that some rape is more okay than other types. IT IS RAPE & HE RAPED THOUSANDS & HELPED OTHER MEN RAPE EVEN MORE WOMEN. Women who trusted the Playboy brand and the lies of sexual freedom & equality for women. When it was all a lie, but you defended rape. Which reminds me of just how & why predators get away with raping so many women... Eric thinks his charity work makes up for a 1000 or more women being raped is perfectly acceptable as long as a few charities got money for it.

I NEVER said that. A few of you are so determined to paint me as some sort of apologist for/ defender of Hefner that you are deliberately misreading what I posted. I did not write the Penal Law and criminal codes of the various states. All have sexual offenses listed and defined by degree with use and /or threat of force being the most serious and with lesser degrees of sexual offenses listed.

Where do you get the number of " 1000 women" being raped. One would be too many. I NEVER said that his charity work and other good deeds somehow made up for his wrongdoing.

Eric Stoner
02-28-2022, 09:24 AM
What difference does it make whether or not any of us has met him? Rape is wrong. Abusing women is wrong. Forcing a woman to have sex with an animal is wrong.



From reading through this discussion, I would say that most of the people here who have condemned Hefner, have looked and listened.

I am not arguing with you that those acts and more are wrong. Never did.

Eric Stoner
02-28-2022, 09:33 AM
It really seems that you didn't, but okay.



Where did I say that he did?



Okay...... so if you think it's pointless and morally wrong to judge anyone you haven't met.....why are you in this thread? Especially when you're judging Holly and Sandra? And by your religious logic, are we supposed to ignore all crimes and criminals because they'll be taken care of by god in the afterlife? I think you're reeeeally grasping at straws.

I never said that anyone gets a pass for wrongful behavior. I do have questions about SOME of the accusations about Hefner and SOME of his accusers. Hefner is not on trial and thus his accusers are not subject to cross examination nor required to corroborate their accusations. Under the law you cannot defame a dead person so they are free to say anything they want about Hefner. They could say he barbequed children in the backyard of the Mansion if they wanted to.

I have said that Holly and SONDRA were probably taken advantage of and perhaps even pressured into behavior that they now regret. It's a large club and Hefner is hardly alone in having done such things. For a time it was the "national sport " of Hollywood before the Me Too movement took hold .

The reason I find the Lovelace story more credible than some others is because it has been around for decades and Hefner never denied it afaik.

pinkvelvetxo
02-28-2022, 10:58 AM
I never said that anyone gets a pass for wrongful behavior. I do have questions about SOME of the accusations about Hefner and SOME of his accusers. Hefner is not on trial and thus his accusers are not subject to cross examination nor required to corroborate their accusations. Under the law you cannot defame a dead person so they are free to say anything they want about Hefner. They could say he barbequed children in the backyard of the Mansion if they wanted to.

I have said that Holly and SONDRA were probably taken advantage of and perhaps even pressured into behavior that they now regret. It's a large club and Hefner is hardly alone in having done such things. For a time it was the "national sport " of Hollywood before the Me Too movement took hold .

The reason I find the Lovelace story more credible than some others is because it has been around for decades and Hefner never denied it afaik.

its just important people understand the red flags of predatory behavior. I really think these girls didn’t realize how deep this really went and now they are in a situation where they are drug addicted and dependent.

the biggest reason people don’t like to hear this stuff is because it destroys the fantasy for them. But that’s also why this went on for so long. I mean it was so beyond the magazine at this point, it really was a cult.

Genoveve
03-04-2022, 12:38 PM
A few of you are so determined to paint me as some sort of apologist for/ defender of Hefner that you are deliberately misreading what I posted.

I don’t think anyone’s misreading anything. Also what’s the odds of multiple people completely misreading you? Don’t you think it’s a liiiiitle more likely that the issue is on your end?


I did not write the Penal Law and criminal codes of the various states. All have sexual offenses listed and defined by degree with use and /or threat of force being the most serious and with lesser degrees of sexual offenses listed.

You never alluded to some sex crimes being more okay or more forgivable than others? Then what was this supposed to mean, since apparently we all read it wrong:


For me , given the sources and lack of documented proof ( as opposed to allegations ) it seems to be a matter of degree, not wrongfulness in kind. Add in positive things said about him ( and some negatives ) from three ( 3 ) of his exes that I personally spoke with and it puts the overall picture into shades of gray.

.


I NEVER said that his charity work and other good deeds somehow made up for his wrongdoing.

Then why constantly bring it up in your rebuttals—-and why constantly ‘debate’ against anyone who believes that he was an abuser in a thread dedicated to a show that’s about him being an abuser?

Genoveve
03-04-2022, 12:43 PM
I never said that anyone gets a pass for wrongful behavior. I do have questions about SOME of the accusations about Hefner and SOME of his accusers. Hefner is not on trial and thus his accusers are not subject to cross examination nor required to corroborate their accusations. Under the law you cannot defame a dead person so they are free to say anything they want about Hefner. They could say he barbequed children in the backyard of the Mansion if they wanted to.

I have said that Holly and SONDRA were probably taken advantage of and perhaps even pressured into behavior that they now regret. It's a large club and Hefner is hardly alone in having done such things. For a time it was the "national sport " of Hollywood before the Me Too movement took hold .

The reason I find the Lovelace story more credible than some others is because it has been around for decades and Hefner never denied it afaik.

This is no way answers the quote that it’s responding to, at this point I’m honestly not sure if it’s a really bad attempt at deflecting or if it’s an actual reading comprehension problem on your end.

eagle2
03-04-2022, 12:48 PM
I have said that Holly and SONDRA were probably taken advantage of and perhaps even pressured into behavior that they now regret. It's a large club and Hefner is hardly alone in having done such things. For a time it was the "national sport " of Hollywood before the Me Too movement took hold .


Because other people were doing it, does not make it okay.

Genoveve
03-04-2022, 01:00 PM
^^He’s gonna come back and say “I NEVER said that it did,” LOL. Even though it is very obviously implied.

eagle2
03-04-2022, 01:48 PM
I NEVER said that his charity work and other good deeds somehow made up for his wrongdoing.

You did, or at least you said the positive things said about him do.


Add in positive things said about him ( and some negatives ) from three ( 3 ) of his exes that I personally spoke with and it puts the overall picture into shades of gray.

Genoveve
03-04-2022, 03:02 PM
In addition to the ‘but everyone was doing it back then’ excuse, more examples of Stoner not defending Hefner:


He was also a strong supporter of the First Amendment ; reform of draconian drug laws ; women's rights ( admittedly incongruously ) ; civil rights - black performers were always welcome at his clubs and numerous charities. He was a major fundraiser for and supporter of Children Of The Night just to name one.


Btw, aside from his lifestyle , sex life and personality, most , not all but most of the worst allegations do not concern Hefner directly. Like the abuse of the Bunnies. He didn't do it personally. He knew about some of it but his overall responsibility is not so cut and dried.


Do I believe Holly was troubled and became dependent on Hefner ? Yes. I have little doubt. Was she used by Hefner and perhaps abused as well ? That's tougher to answer because I was not there.


Sometimes Hef tried to calm the waters and sometimes he stirred the pot. Anyone surprised ?


At least in his magazine and in his public statements Hefner consistently spoke out against the coupling of violence and sex as in magazines like Hustler.


I AM saying that it is all just allegations against a dead man and that a lot of his accusers have some sort of axe to grind.


HAs far as judging Hefner as a person, I never met him personally. Neither have you or any other poster in this thread afaik. Judge not lest ye be judged. He's dead.


According to my faith we are ALL sinners. All of us have done bad things.

Eric Stoner
03-07-2022, 08:14 AM
You did, or at least you said the positive things said about him do.

Obviously we disagree about what "shades of gray " means.

Eric Stoner
03-07-2022, 08:26 AM
Because other people were doing it, does not make it okay.

Most of Hefner's alleged wrongdoing occurred in the 70's and 80's. I doubt very much that he could get away with that kind of behavior today. All to the good afaic.
We can go all the way back to Darryl Zanuck and Jack Warner through Kirk Douglas up to Harvey Weinstein , Bill Cosby and Les Moonves with lots of other actors , producers and directors thrown in to the mix. ALL engaged in wrongful behavior. Hefner didn't invent the "casting couch" but it seems pretty clear he had one. He's still DEAD !

All I have ever said is that allegations and accusations do not constitute proof.

Some of the allegations made by some of the accusers are questionable . IMO. None of his accusers have been subject to cross examination. And never will be . Hefner is DEAD.

Afaik , nobody ever accused Hefner of forcible rape. If someone did , I missed it. If we use the standard of All Accusers Must Be Believed then Bill Clinton belongs in prison. He WAS accused of forcible rape by more than one woman who told a credible story.

If pointing out these simple basics makes me a defender of or apologist for Hefner then so be it. I don't think it does because I still believe in innocent until proven guilty , right to face one's accusers and similar little technicalities.

Genoveve
03-07-2022, 09:29 PM
If pointing out these simple basics makes me a defender of or apologist for Hefner then so be it.

Finally.

Eric Stoner
03-08-2022, 08:53 AM
Finally.

If you are happy then I'm happy.

Last night I caught up on a couple episodes. Aside from the usual naked allegations and vilification there was one thing that was documented fact that I wasn't aware of: Girls as young as 17 , SEVENTEEN ! posed for Playboy ! With their parents consent. Some parents. Then Hefner would wait until they turned 18 before publishing their photos. That is sick and blatant exploitation.

In a past life I managed a club that I had a piece of. One of the investors and I had a knock down, drag out argument because I wouldn't hire anyone under 21. The biggest investor got involved and we compromised. I hired a few gals who were at least 20 and turning 21 before the end of the year. It was LEGAL for anyone over 18 to work there but I just felt it wasn't right ; wasn't good for the club and wasn't good for them. I said : "Let them grow up first and then come work here." We were a big fish in a small pond and had plenty of women who wanted to work there who were at least 21. Hefner could have and should have done likewise. And that was far from the worst thing he did.

I never said he was a good person.

SnuffleUffleGrass
03-09-2022, 09:05 AM
In a past life I managed a club that I had a piece of. One of the investors and I had a knock down, drag out argument because I wouldn't hire anyone under 21. The biggest investor got involved and we compromised. I hired a few gals who were at least 20 and turning 21 before the end of the year. It was LEGAL for anyone over 18 to work there but I just felt it wasn't right ; wasn't good for the club and wasn't good for them. I said : "Let them grow up first and then come work here." We were a big fish in a small pond and had plenty of women who wanted to work there who were at least 21.

This is tremendously interesting in a good way. I've always advised women to wait until age 21 to enter the adult industry, mostly because of the aspect of alcohol being available in strip bars.

On topic- I wonder who spearheaded the effort to make this documentary series. When Hefner died there wasn't too big of a controversy in the media- IIRC the Las Vegas mass shooting took over the headlines right after he died so that might be part of it.

Eric Stoner
03-09-2022, 09:18 AM
This is tremendously interesting in a good way. I've always advised women to wait until age 21 to enter the adult industry, mostly because of the aspect of alcohol being available in strip bars.

On topic- I wonder who spearheaded the effort to make this documentary series. When Hefner died there wasn't too big of a controversy in the media- IIRC the Las Vegas mass shooting took over the headlines right after he died so that might be part of it.

We think alike. I thought then and still do that it is best to be AT LEAST 21 before working in a strip club. Alcohol was just one part of the equation. And I turned down several hot (and I mean HOT !) gals who wanted to work there asking them to "come back next year ".

You can't defame a dead person. You may have noted that the producers and participants have been very careful not to allege anything against Christie Hefner or Cooper or Marston.

whirlerz
03-29-2022, 10:14 AM
There's another segment out today

Eric Stoner
03-29-2022, 10:51 AM
There's another segment out today

Yeah and it was the most disturbing. Towards the end Hefner seemed to be channeling Jack Woltz. Disgustingly so.

eagle2
06-21-2022, 06:07 PM
Bill Cosby just lost a case for sexually assaulting a teenage girl at the mansion. His victim was awarded $500,000.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/06/21/arts/bill-cosby-verdict-judy-huth

SnuffleUffleGrass
07-06-2022, 01:59 PM
Bill Cosby just lost a case for sexually assaulting a teenage girl at the mansion. His victim was awarded $500,000.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/06/21/arts/bill-cosby-verdict-judy-huth

The case of Bill Cosby has been so disillusioning.

whirlerz
07-08-2022, 12:01 AM
The case of Bill Cosby has been so disillusioning.

That's for sure! So smug about it, too^

eagle2
09-19-2022, 11:33 AM
Holly Madison and Bridget Marquardt have a podcast

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/girls-next-level/id1637803173

Djoser
09-19-2022, 06:03 PM
Wow didn't know this thread was still going.

Back a few years there were some threads and posts here about Hefner (when he was still alive), and a whole lot of members were still going on about the glorious opportunities available from working with him, how great he was, etc. Glad to see the reality of his hypocrisy being acknowledged.

I lost all respect for Hefner after reading Thy Neighbor's Wife by Gay Talese, who researched the swingers' scene and sexual freedom in Hefner's heyday. From the get go, 'Sexual Freedom' as far as Hefner was concerned did NOT apply to the women he was fucking. They were free to fuck him, and occasionally his chosen male celebrity pals like Cosby and O.J. Simpson. Otherwise, far from it.

Eric Stoner
09-21-2022, 10:09 AM
Hefner was definitely a "do as I say , not as I do " kind of guy. Ironically , most of his so-called "girlfriends " ( after his divorce from Kimberly ) escorted on the side.