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nattyfetish
03-01-2022, 03:38 AM
Brainwash, propaganda. Cutie is right. I know it is hard for you guys to understand, as you have only known freedom somehow.
I watch a russian bloggesr on instagram. They put commercials on tv sayin their nuclear weapons are ready and a world without Russia is no world to live in. They prepared buses, like a huge amount of busses to arrest anyone protesting, now the blogger is afraid to talk or share much as they have been threatened that anyone talking or protesting will be acused of treason and shoved in jail for 20 years. There is a video of a poltician of the oposition from 2015, talking pretty badly about Putin, he showed up dead later that day.
Some people in Europe still have communism thinking and side with Russia evan after years of it disappearing, that hard and bad manipulation during dictatorships are.

Cutie101
03-01-2022, 04:08 AM
^^ Yeah, they arrested almost 10k russian civilians for protesting, these days. It's mental what's going there and those people have no chance unless the army and part of the goverment sides with them. Just like it happened in the rest of the ex- comunist countries. That's how this area got out of comunism, once that some of the people in the goverment decided that they can't handle the terrors they were under it (even as a privileged citizen, due to a high rank in the countries, you'd still be watched, controlled, sent to jail if you weren't ass kissing properly and reporting everything) and sided with the army, that turned against the dictators and brought people outside their homes to fight and free themselves.

Edit: I see @likethis left a comment. I 100% agree! Yes. If people from free countries are easily manipulated, so...

Cutie101
03-01-2022, 04:16 AM
Btw, if anyone wants to see how comunism was in Eastern Europe (from rise to fall), there's this 3 parts documentary, made by BBC. Each one is 1 hour, if you're bored of Netflix and wanna learn how poorly people were living till late 80's.
Part 1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znb_X48WXUg

Cutie101
03-01-2022, 04:16 AM
Part 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUVro3TKjow

Cutie101
03-01-2022, 04:17 AM
Part 3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzmmskkuKlM

kamiliam
03-01-2022, 04:59 AM
just for the record the communist party in Russia, as far as it exists today, is against Putins' actions. Not quite sure why we are acting as if Russian is a communist country when it is ran by a totalitarian fully capitalist dictator.

Cutie101
03-01-2022, 05:07 AM
just for the record the communist party in Russia, as far as it exists today, is against Putins' actions. Not quite sure why we are acting as if Russian is a communist country when it is ran by a totalitarian fully capitalist dictator.

Because common folk doesn't understand politics at that deep level. Everyone knows what comunism is, so we define this as "comunist", so people who don't know much about politics, to understand basic things. And things in Russia (or even China) are a mix of comunism, totalitarism, socialism, whatever -ism you wanna call...
It's easier to just reduce everything to "comunist" when discussing this thread. Otherwise we get lost in terms and this thread was meant to explain and comment everything in simple words, for everyone to understand, not just those who are a bit more educated about it :D

rickdugan
03-01-2022, 06:56 AM
We were importing plenty of oil from Russia in 2019 and 2020.

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MTTIM_NUS-NRS_1&f=M

No he didn't. Oil production had been going up since fracking was started in the 2000s. The trend was no different under Trump than under Obama. Oil production declined in 2020 because oil prices were down. That is the only major factor affecting US oil production. It cost more to produce oil in the US than other oil producing countries, so when the price goes down, so does US production. Oil production has greatly increased this past year.

No, we were sending them weapons before Russia invaded, which is why they've been able to hold them off so far. If anyone should be ashamed, it should be Trump, for praising Putin and bashing Biden and European leaders who are helping Ukraine. I don't know what it is with you and Eric, that you have to turn every discussion into praising Trump and bashing Biden.

Eagle mea culpa. I was reading the chart wrong. But the fact remains that almost 40% of Russia's federal budget and 25% of its GDP is directly tied to the energy sector. Oil trading at $50-60 per barrel was crimping Russian growth. Now we (US and EU) are shelling out $100 per barrel because of bad energy policies and, in effect, financed Russia's war on the Ukraine.

Everything about this is political - it's a war. The EU and US did some stupid things which helped Putin feel more emboldened while financing his ambitions. They also did plenty of weakness signaling, not the least of which was Biden's "minor incursions" comment but also included plenty of EU signaling as well. We did everything short of roll out the red concrete carpet for the tanks to ride in on.

What we sent was not nearly enough. Ukraine has seen this coming for years and has been begging for things like F-16 jets and Stinger missiles to help protect them from air strikes and give them a fighting chance. The simple reality is that nobody really cared enough about the Ukraine to arm it properly and tbh they still don't.

Even now the current Administration is dragging its heels on sending the arms that it promised, no doubt secretly hoping that the Russians finish the resistance off before they have to honor their pledge. Oh and even when we do start sending aid, the Administration intends to hold back the Stinger missiles until a later date, probably the most important part of the aid package because they help protect against aerial assaults. It's all just political theatre for the masses now.

Eric Stoner
03-01-2022, 09:10 AM
I'm not the one who keeps bringing up Trump or calling the POTUS an idiot. I'm only responding when others do. You don't understand that just because someone doesn't do exactly what you want them to do, doesn't make them an idiot, but I get what you're saying. All the oil companies have to do is push a button, and the price of gas will go to $2 a gallon. The only thing that is keeping them from doing this is, Biden refuses to tell them to push that button. Extracting oil from shale is such a simple and cheap process, that oil companies can increase production production by 3 million barrels a day, overnight. That seems to be how the world works in your mind. It's inconceivable to you that the free market is working the way it's expected to. Changes take place gradually.

I hate when you're right but despite my disgust and dislike of the current occupant of the Oval Office there is nothing wrong with respecting the office and refraining from comment on his being ... er... um ... challenged.
I asked you this before and you refused to answer it : Please name one thing , just one, that the current POTUS has done to boost domestic oil and gas production ?

Eric Stoner
03-01-2022, 09:16 AM
Eagle mea culpa. I was reading the chart wrong. But the fact remains that almost 40% of Russia's federal budget and 25% of its GDP is directly tied to the energy sector. Oil trading at $50-60 per barrel was crimping Russian growth. Now we (US and EU) are shelling out $100 per barrel because of bad energy policies and, in effect, financed Russia's war on the Ukraine.

Everything about this is political - it's a war. The EU and US did some stupid things which helped Putin feel more emboldened while financing his ambitions. They also did plenty of weakness signaling, not the least of which was Biden's "minor incursions" comment but also included plenty of EU signaling as well. We did everything short of roll out the red concrete carpet for the tanks to ride in on.

What we sent was not nearly enough. Ukraine has seen this coming for years and has been begging for things like F-16 jets and Stinger missiles to help protect them from air strikes and give them a fighting chance. The simple reality is that nobody really cared enough about the Ukraine to arm it properly and tbh they still don't.

Even now the current Administration is dragging its heels on sending the arms that it promised, no doubt secretly hoping that the Russians finish the resistance off before they have to honor their pledge. Oh and even when we do start sending aid, the Administration intends to hold back the Stinger missiles until a later date, probably the most important part of the aid package because they help protect against aerial assaults. It's all just political theatre for the masses now.

Hmmm. I have seen charts that say that Russia gets 50% of its foreign earnings from energy sales ; oil, gas and coal. The rest comes almost entirely from agricultural foodstuffs and products. the late Pat Moynihan noted back in the 1980's that the Soviet Union was a "hunter gatherer" economy. It hasn't improved much under Putin. Russia's economy has also been described as Upper Volta with petroleum.

Eric Stoner
03-01-2022, 09:17 AM
Putin and his cronies are having their assets frozen.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/very-probable-that-swiss-will-freeze-russian-assets-president-2022-02-27/

Thank you for the update. Now when the U.S. and Europe cut off energy sales then I will know that we are serious.

moneybags
03-01-2022, 11:00 AM
Because common folk doesn't understand politics at that deep level. Everyone knows what comunism is, so we define this as "comunist", so people who don't know much about politics, to understand basic things. And things in Russia (or even China) are a mix of comunism, totalitarism, socialism, whatever -ism you wanna call...
It's easier to just reduce everything to "comunist" when discussing this thread. Otherwise we get lost in terms and this thread was meant to explain and comment everything in simple words, for everyone to understand, not just those who are a bit more educated about it :D





most of our thinking is reductionist. Most people are not able to think clearly or critically about complex issues. It’s a skill I’m working on myself. Of course the public school system isn’t meant for us to think it’s meant to makes us smart enough to do our jobs, but not too smart that we see what’s actually going on. There’s no shame in this. The American public is dumbed down so the powers that be can keep using mind control to get us to do what they think is best.

Thinking logically and for oneself will get you into trouble-most of us understand this as “sex workers.” We know sex work is work, but most people are too ignorant to see what two consenting adults do is none of their damn business.

Communism isn’t even bad, it’s just that we’ve never seen it work. Capitalism isn’t bad, but it is when we don’t have checks and balances. Very few things are “good” or “bad”, it’s the intention not the utilization that matters the most.

Anyways, Putin is a dictator. If you speak out against him you risk jail, fines, and even murder if you are a big enough threat.

eagle2
03-01-2022, 11:13 AM
Eagle mea culpa. I was reading the chart wrong. But the fact remains that almost 40% of Russia's federal budget and 25% of its GDP is directly tied to the energy sector. Oil trading at $50-60 per barrel was crimping Russian growth. Now we (US and EU) are shelling out $100 per barrel because of bad energy policies and, in effect, financed Russia's war on the Ukraine.

Everything about this is political - it's a war. The EU and US did some stupid things which helped Putin feel more emboldened while financing his ambitions. They also did plenty of weakness signaling, not the least of which was Biden's "minor incursions" comment but also included plenty of EU signaling as well. We did everything short of roll out the red concrete carpet for the tanks to ride in on.

What we sent was not nearly enough. Ukraine has seen this coming for years and has been begging for things like F-16 jets and Stinger missiles to help protect them from air strikes and give them a fighting chance. The simple reality is that nobody really cared enough about the Ukraine to arm it properly and tbh they still don't.

Even now the current Administration is dragging its heels on sending the arms that it promised, no doubt secretly hoping that the Russians finish the resistance off before they have to honor their pledge. Oh and even when we do start sending aid, the Administration intends to hold back the Stinger missiles until a later date, probably the most important part of the aid package because they help protect against aerial assaults. It's all just political theatre for the masses now.

You can't read President Biden's mind. There's no basis for your statement, other than your personal feelings about the President. The US has supplied over $1 billion in arms to Ukraine over the past year, including Javelin anti-tank missiles, which have decimated Russian tanks and armored vehicles. The US has also allowed other countries to provide Stinger missiles to Ukraine, and will also be sending them there, with our most recent aid package. President Biden made it very clear to Russia that if they invaded Ukraine, Russia would face severe economic sanctions. Putin had his mind made up about Ukraine, and there is nothing President Biden could have done to prevent this from happening. Some people are questioning Putin's mental stability.

I think your views of Biden and Trump are based on caricatures created in the right-wing media, rather than the actual people. You think of Biden as this weak feckless man kowtowing to Putin and Trump as this strong, competent leader, feared by world leaders, when reality is the exact opposite. Trump is a joke to other world leaders. When Trump pulled American troops out of Syria, he sent a letter to Turkish president, Erdogan, telling him, "don't be a tough guy" and implored him not to attack the Kurds. Erdogan threw the letter in the trash after reading it, and attacked the Kurds the following day. Trump has offered nothing but praise for Putin, and Biden has done everything short of sending in US troops to help Ukraine.

eagle2
03-01-2022, 11:17 AM
I asked you this before and you refused to answer it : Please name one thing , just one, that the current POTUS has done to boost domestic oil and gas production ?

The US isn't a communist country. Oil company executives make decisions about oil production, not the President. You seem to think that all the President has to do is sign a piece of paper, and oil production will increase by millions of barrels a day.

eagle2
03-01-2022, 12:11 PM
Russia have started rolling in thermobaric rockets- which are considered to be a step away from nukes with the destruction they cause. They cause mass casualties and completely destroy large areas, and as of now they're in the Ukraine but have not been used. Honestly it seems like Putin has gone completely fucking insane.


It looks like Ukraine may have captured one.

https://twitter.com/oryxspioenkop/status/1498697710429425672

Eric Stoner
03-01-2022, 12:15 PM
The US isn't a communist country. Oil company executives make decisions about oil production, not the President. You seem to think that all the President has to do is sign a piece of paper, and oil production will increase by millions of barrels a day.

Sorry Eagle. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion but the laundry list of Biden's Executive Orders that have inhibited domestic oil and gas production has been posted and commented on. I take the position shared by many experts in the field that Biden could help ramp up domestic production but refuses to do so. You apparently disagree. So be it.

If , repeat IF, I am reading you correctly you are blaming the reduction in our domestic oil and gas production on oil company executives ???? As though cancelling pipelines and freezing oil and gas leases has had no effect ?

You have taken me to task for ridiculing Biden which is fair I suppose. I in turn cannot understand your apparent affinity for him. Rather than risk getting too political we'll have to agree to disagree.

eagle2
03-01-2022, 12:53 PM
No, I blame the economic downturn in 2020, which resulted in dramatically reduced demand for oil, which in turn led to a dramatic reduction in oil production in the US. This all happened before Biden took office. You don't seem to understand that oil companies are in business to make money, and they're not going to increase drilling when it's not profitable.

I don't have a great deal of affinity for him, but I don't think he's the disaster that you and Rick make him out to be. Less than half the federal land leased to oil companies is currently being used by them, and approximately 80% of oil drilling is being done on privately held land. You're blowing things way out of proportion. You refuse to accept the fact that oil companies can't increase production by millions of barrels a day overnight. The biggest factor in how much oil is produced in the US, is the price of oil. When the price of oil goes way down, as it did in 2020, so does US production. When it goes up, so does US production, but it doesn't happen overnight. It takes time to drill new wells. U.S. crude oil production is forecast to rise in 2022 and 2023 to record-high levels:

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=51318

Eric Stoner
03-01-2022, 12:55 PM
No, I blame the economic downturn in 2020, which resulted in dramatically reduced demand for oil, which in turn led to a dramatic reduction in oil production in the US. This all happened before Biden took office. You don't seem to understand that oil companies are in business to make money, and they're not going to increase drilling when it's not profitable.

I don't have a great deal of affinity for him, but I don't think he's the disaster that you and Rick make him out to be. Less than half the federal land leased to oil companies is currently being used by them, and approximately 80% of oil drilling is being done on privately held land. You're blowing things way out of proportion. You refuse to accept the fact that oil companies can't increase production by millions of barrels a day overnight. The biggest factor in how much oil is produced in the US, is the price of oil. When the price of oil goes way down, as it did in 2020, so does US production. When it goes up, so does US production, but it doesn't happen overnight. It takes time to drill new wells. U.S. crude oil production is forecast to rise in 2022 and 2023 to record-high levels:

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=51318

That rosy prediction would carry a lot more weight if it were from an unbiased source.

eagle2
03-01-2022, 06:55 PM
I cannot stop laughing my ass off, I don't know what is fucking worse, the real Trump that would back the invasion (just like Bolsanaro is currently doing) or the fake Trump that threatened Moscow.

This is how Trump supporters see him:

https://i.imgur.com/hjwD8Kr.jpg

Rather than what he actually is:

https://i.imgur.com/cfIkjX8.jpg

SnuffleUffleGrass
03-01-2022, 07:28 PM
Apparently Putin has threatened to use nuclear weapons? Hmmm. Damn he really is off his nut.

Luci Fer
03-01-2022, 08:05 PM
That is an airsoft gun, there so much propaganda on both sides it is embarrassing.

this is so much propaganda indeed that I don't know what to believe at all. I have heard two radicaly different points of view by this day already and the shittiest thing is that they both sound pretty convincing and logical. ;D :(
Also, Internet adds the hype and hysteria to this, and sometimes I think the pics from news are photoshopped. Did any real journalists go there at all?

DeathAndTaxes
03-01-2022, 08:21 PM
^ Honestly this is the most bizarre war I have ever followed, even the Israeli incursions into Lebanon, Gaza, WB have been significantly more brutal than this.

Enigmas start to pile up is just where is the Russian Air Force (VKS)?

https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/mysterious-case-missing-russian-air-force

The capture of the Antonov air field by paratroopers only to be left alone and unsupported by literally anything in the Russian army (they got dispersed obviously by the Ukranian army)

Then you have logistical issues like running out of fuel when the front lines is only a few miles from Belarus. This is grade A clownshow.

If I wake up tomorrow and somebody said this was an elaborate prank and this was all staged I would not be surprised at all.

Luci Fer
03-01-2022, 08:36 PM
^ Honestly this is the most bizarre war I have ever followed, even the Israeli incursions into Lebanon, Gaza, WB have been significantly more brutal than this.

Enigmas start to pile up is just where is the Russian Air Force (VKS)?

https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/mysterious-case-missing-russian-air-force

The capture of the Antonov air field by paratroopers only to be left alone and unsupported by literally anything in the Russian army (they got dispersed obviously by the Ukranian army)

Then you have logistical issues like running out of fuel when the front lines is only a few miles from Belarus. This is grade A clownshow.

If I wake up tomorrow and somebody said this was an elaborate prank and this was all staged I would not be surprised at all.

lol yeah, I get what you mean.I thought I got cynical af when thought about the photoshop. But people say like..."any means are good during a war", with internet it just gets to an insane level. I don't see the news, since I can't differ the reality from the fake anymore. The one thing I am sure of is that there are people who take good advantage of this conflict. But it's been always like that.
also funny that the article you sent mentions US way of invasion. I thought russians learnt from americans well, when they stated "they had to attack to save free Ukraine and true democratic country" Sounds similar, doesnt it?:(

DeathAndTaxes
03-01-2022, 08:55 PM
lol yeah, I get what you mean.I thought I got cynical af when thought about the photoshop. But people say like..."any means are good during a war", with internet it just gets to an insane level. I don't see the news, since I can't differ the reality from the fake anymore. The one thing I am sure of is that there are people who take good advantage of this conflict. But it's been always like that.
also funny that the article you sent mentions US way of invasion. I thought russians learnt from americans well, when they stated "they had to attack to save free Ukraine and true democratic country" Sounds similar, doesnt it?:(

Yup this is one of those "we are liberators" wars but it still seems so fake, like fuel logistics is a solved problem, the Soviets solved it 80 years ago already, what the hell are they doing?

Then there is the Ukranian air force still existing, 80+ years have taught us you destroy all enemy planes and airfields literally hours from the outbreak of war, not this time, they are letting them fly around cities for morale boosts and drones are hitting SAM vehicles caught unfurled and with their pants down.

Luci Fer
03-01-2022, 09:04 PM
Yup this is one of those "we are liberators" wars but it still seems so fake, like fuel logistics is a solved problem, the Soviets solved it 80 years ago already, what the hell are they doing?

Then there is the Ukranian air force still existing, 80+ years have taught us you destroy all enemy planes and airfields literally hours from the outbreak of war, not this time, they are letting them fly around cities for morale boosts and drones are hitting SAM vehicles caught unfurled and with their pants down.

Maybe they didnot want to destroy their military forces, just only their defence systems but not planes?
idk, I was said by one person they were looking for extreme nationalists that used to suppress russian- speaking ukrainian citizens in Crimea (before the annexion) and Donetsk and Luhansk republics, so they didnot want to destroy and burn everything. (but there are victims anyway)
The others say it was fucking invasion to sovereign state and they have no right to do it.

DeathAndTaxes
03-01-2022, 09:12 PM
Maybe they didnot want to destroy their military forces, just only their defence systems but not planes?
idk, I was said by one person they were looking for extreme nationalists that used to suppress russian- speaking ukrainian citizens in Crimea (before the annexion) and Donetsk and Luhansk republics, so they didnot want to destroy and burn everything. (but there are victims anyway)
The others say it was fucking invasion to sovereign state and they have no right to do it.

Yup, really good theories.

Luci Fer
03-01-2022, 09:16 PM
Yup, really good theories.

Yeah, and that's the problem ;D

eagle2
03-02-2022, 01:55 AM
Yup this is one of those "we are liberators" wars but it still seems so fake, like fuel logistics is a solved problem, the Soviets solved it 80 years ago already, what the hell are they doing?

Then there is the Ukranian air force still existing, 80+ years have taught us you destroy all enemy planes and airfields literally hours from the outbreak of war, not this time, they are letting them fly around cities for morale boosts and drones are hitting SAM vehicles caught unfurled and with their pants down.

80 years ago the United States supplied the Soviet Union with hundreds of thousands of trucks. That's how they solved the logistics problem.

rickdugan
03-02-2022, 05:39 AM
You can't read President Biden's mind. There's no basis for your statement, other than your personal feelings about the President. The US has supplied over $1 billion in arms to Ukraine over the past year, including Javelin anti-tank missiles, which have decimated Russian tanks and armored vehicles. The US has also allowed other countries to provide Stinger missiles to Ukraine, and will also be sending them there, with our most recent aid package. President Biden made it very clear to Russia that if they invaded Ukraine, Russia would face severe economic sanctions. Putin had his mind made up about Ukraine, and there is nothing President Biden could have done to prevent this from happening. Some people are questioning Putin's mental stability.

I think your views of Biden and Trump are based on caricatures created in the right-wing media, rather than the actual people. You think of Biden as this weak feckless man kowtowing to Putin and Trump as this strong, competent leader, feared by world leaders, when reality is the exact opposite. Trump is a joke to other world leaders. When Trump pulled American troops out of Syria, he sent a letter to Turkish president, Erdogan, telling him, "don't be a tough guy" and implored him not to attack the Kurds. Erdogan threw the letter in the trash after reading it, and attacked the Kurds the following day. Trump has offered nothing but praise for Putin, and Biden has done everything short of sending in US troops to help Ukraine.

What we have sent in terms of offensive weapons is a pittance compared to what they need and we are still screwing around by - yet again - holding up on those surface to air Stinger missiles. Given that Russia is currently bombing the shit out of Kharkiv, Ukraine's second largest city, those Stinger missiles are sorely missed right now and potentially could have saved civilian lives.

Like I said before, political theatre for the masses. The Administration cares about the Ukraine, just not that much. We partially remove them from SWIFT, but not completely. We apply other economic sanctions, but won't employ a fossil fuel embargo that would cripple Russia more than anything else we have done combined. We will send them weapons, but nothing that will cause too much offensive damage because we fear that Russia will retaliate.

DeathAndTaxes
03-02-2022, 07:32 AM
80 years ago the United States supplied the Soviet Union with hundreds of thousands of trucks. That's how they solved the logistics problem.

And Russia has 100x many trucks today as they had back then, solving the fuel logistics is a mathematical problem not a materiel problem since Russia today is far more mechanized logistically than any other country from back then.

Eric Stoner
03-02-2022, 08:56 AM
Most of the Russian army has low morale. The average soldier has no idea why they are going into Ukraine. Reportedly they are sabotaging their own vehicles and deliberately running out of gas. Most of the damage to Kharkiv has been done by missiles and smart bombs i.e. push button weapons. Add in the ferocious resistance by the Ukrainians and it is not surprising that Russia has not just rolled into Kyiv.

That said , the Ukrainians need more help than they have been getting . Especially Stinger missiles. We can't establish a No-Fly zone over Ukraine as Zelensky wants . That would guarantee a shooting war between NATO and Russia which absolutely must be avoided.

The best idea I have heard , out of very , very few , would be to send Angela Merkel and maybe Obama to see Putin and try to work out a way for him to declare victory and get out. Merkel speaks Russian , lived in East Germany when Putin was assigned there as a KGB agent and has had a good relationship with him. Putin would probably see Obama as close enough to an honest broker ( seeing as how he never punished him for his past aggressions ) . Hopefully they can work out a face saving way for Putin to agree to a cease fire and withdrawl.

Anyone hoping for a Ukrainian "victory" should shut up and be careful what they wish for. That is a pipe dream given the current military situation and Putin's mental state.

The Russian oligarchs are starting , just starting to feel the pinch and have looked ahead and do not like what they see in the near future. Hopefully they will pressure Putin to agree to a truce. That itself raises an interesting and very important question : Are they rich and powerful because of Putin i.e. they owe him or is he in power because of their support ? My guess is that it is both.

eagle2
03-02-2022, 11:50 AM
What we have sent in terms of offensive weapons is a pittance compared to what they need and we are still screwing around by - yet again - holding up on those surface to air Stinger missiles. Given that Russia is currently bombing the shit out of Kharkiv, Ukraine's second largest city, those Stinger missiles are sorely missed right now and potentially could have saved civilian lives.

Like I said before, political theatre for the masses. The Administration cares about the Ukraine, just not that much. We partially remove them from SWIFT, but not completely. We apply other economic sanctions, but won't employ a fossil fuel embargo that would cripple Russia more than anything else we have done combined. We will send them weapons, but nothing that will cause too much offensive damage because we fear that Russia will retaliate.

Ukraine had already received Stingers from Lithuania before Russia invaded.

https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/1614946/ukraine-receives-stinger-anti-aircraft-missiles-from-lithuania

We've sent them plenty of weapons, which is why they've been able to hold out for so long. Russia's economy is already wrecked. You're just making stuff up to bash Biden. Ukraine is getting more military support than anyone expected them to, from the US and other NATO countries, and Russia is getting hit with sanctions far worse than anyone was expecting, or at least far worse than Putin was expecting.

Eric Stoner
03-02-2022, 12:26 PM
Ukraine had already received Stingers from Lithuania before Russia invaded.

https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/1614946/ukraine-receives-stinger-anti-aircraft-missiles-from-lithuania

We've sent them plenty of weapons, which is why they've been able to hold out for so long. Russia's economy is already wrecked. You're just making stuff up to bash Biden. Ukraine is getting more military support than anyone expected them to, from the US and other NATO countries, and Russia is getting hit with sanctions far worse than anyone was expecting, or at least far worse than Putin was expecting.

OK Eagle. Why not follow your own playbook and tone down the politics ? If I can resist blaming and criticizing Biden then you ought to restrain yourself from mentioning Trump.

This is actually a rare case where I think Biden is being justifiably cautious and is taking an incremental approach. It's a delicate balance to maintain whereby we help Ukraine without crossing one of Putin's "red lines". He has tolerated shipments of "defensive " weapons. He would not do so with anything that has a serious offensive capability like fighter jets and the like. A lot of doubts have been raised about Putin's mental state and how far he is really willing to go. Putin obviously wants to restore as much of the old Soviet empire as he can. The question is : At what cost ? Assuming he is able to crush organized resistance in Ukraine then he is certain to have a long running insurgency on his hands. Ukraine is a LOT bigger with a LOT more people than Chechnya.

You are correct that Russia's economy is wrecked EXCEPT for sales of fossil fuels. Primarily to Western Europe and the U.S. The average Russian is feeling the pain but Putin and his oligarch pals are definitely not. They are even moving their luxury yachts to safer waters to keep them from being seized.

eagle2
03-02-2022, 01:07 PM
I didn't mention Trump. Poland is sending fighter jets to Ukraine. I don't think there is any amount of weapons that can be sent to Ukraine that can prevent Russia from taking over their country, unless Putin chooses to withdraw. Russia's military is just so much bigger than Ukraine's. It's all a matter of how many losses Putin is willing to accept. If the Russian military loses enough tanks and armored vehicles, aircraft, and men, Putin may eventually decide the costs aren't worth it, and there is also the remote possibility that Putin could be removed from power.

When Biden was asked if there was any chance we would stop buying Russian oil, he said nothing is off the table. Even if they're able to sell oil, there's not much they can do with the revenue. Russia airlines are banned from Western countries' airspace. Many container ships are refusing to sail to Russia. Western companies are pulling out of Russia. Oligarchs can't travel to Western countries. Their apartments and assets in Western countries are being seized. Maybe they can look for some beach front property in North Korea.

moneybags
03-02-2022, 02:39 PM
https://youtu.be/QnevpbkFrPE


All I know is innocent people shouldn’t suffer

eagle2
03-02-2022, 03:00 PM
What we have sent in terms of offensive weapons is a pittance compared to what they need and we are still screwing around by - yet again - holding up on those surface to air Stinger missiles. Given that Russia is currently bombing the shit out of Kharkiv, Ukraine's second largest city, those Stinger missiles are sorely missed right now and potentially could have saved civilian lives.


https://twitter.com/Acosta/status/1499138624104849412



CNN: US has delivered hundreds of Stinger anti-aircraft missiles to Ukraine for the first time over the last few days, including over 200 on Monday via @ZcohenCNN and @kylieatwood

eagle2
03-02-2022, 05:19 PM
You are correct that Russia's economy is wrecked EXCEPT for sales of fossil fuels. Primarily to Western Europe and the U.S. The average Russian is feeling the pain but Putin and his oligarch pals are definitely not. They are even moving their luxury yachts to safer waters to keep them from being seized.

Just saw on the news that the US has imported zero barrels of oil from Russia over the past 2 weeks.

Germany just seized a $600 million yacht from a Russian billionaire.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/giacomotognini/2022/03/02/germans-seize-russian-billionaire-alisher-usmanovs-mega-yacht/?sh=2975d33652dd

camgirl91
03-02-2022, 07:13 PM
I definitely feel there is something off about all of this. The staged videos of the Russian troops crying saying they didn’t know what they really came for, it’s all just, so staged. It wouldn’t surprise me if they were actually Ukrainian soldiers in disguise. The whole thing seems so off I can’t help feeling uneasy about it all.

The photos of Zelenskyy dressed in army gear as if he’s fighting on the street, of course he isn’t, he’s tucked away in a safe bunker of course - otherwise he’d be dead by now. It literally seems like it’s all set up for the media. I’m not a conspiracy theorist at all, but this is….. strange.

Ambercat
03-02-2022, 11:30 PM
Well during war times both sides create propoganda to some extent but I have a friend and their family sat in the basement of their apartment block with 50 other people and cold tinned food scared out of their f*cking minds. Since Saturday the Internet has been patchy and every time I hear from them I wonder if its going to be the last.

This is not a set up for the media. This is the terrifying reality for millions of people right now.

indiegirl
03-03-2022, 12:37 AM
https://youtu.be/QnevpbkFrPE


All I know is innocent people shouldn’t suffer

How did Maksim Chmerkovsky (on the DWTS show) get a flight back to LAX from the Ukraine? I thought they weren't allowing flights to/from Ukraine and USA?

What's sad is that he was told while he was there to get a gun and watch youtube videos on how to use it. Good god. That must be terrifying to even sleep at night. How could anyone sleep through the possibility of being blown up or shot at?

moneybags
03-03-2022, 02:44 AM
Well during war times both sides create propoganda to some extent but I have a friend and their family sat in the basement of their apartment block with 50 other people and cold tinned food scared out of their f*cking minds. Since Saturday the Internet has been patchy and every time I hear from them I wonder if its going to be the last.

This is not a set up for the media. This is the terrifying reality for millions of people right now.

I’m so sorry it must be so hard to hear the politics when you actually know people that are suffering.

Ambercat
03-03-2022, 02:55 AM
Thank you for the thought. This concern and helplessness is totally alien to me. My fiance was in the army for the first half of our relationship but it was his choice to be acting on the whims of the politicians and presidents. What's going on now to the civilians, known and strangers is just horrible.

camgirl91
03-03-2022, 03:17 AM
Interesting. I remember that woman’s photo. She was all over the western news.
56801

CatBBW
03-03-2022, 04:10 AM
The photos of Zelenskyy dressed in army gear as if he’s fighting on the street, of course he isn’t, he’s tucked away in a safe bunker of course - otherwise he’d be dead by now. It literally seems like it’s all set up for the media. I’m not a conspiracy theorist at all, but this is….. strange.

Those pics have been confirmed as from April 2021 when he visited the front line in East Ukraine, obviously before any military conflict. A quick reverse image search showed this days ago.

Still a powerful image for Ukrainians. My own leader (Johnson) prefers to promise sanctions "sometime soon" and hide in fridges, rather than wear military garb.

kamiliam
03-03-2022, 04:17 AM
How did Maksim Chmerkovsky (on the DWTS show) get a flight back to LAX from the Ukraine? I thought they weren't allowing flights to/from Ukraine and USA?

He made his way to Poland to fly out, also in the picture he appeared to have a US passport making it easier

Eric Stoner
03-03-2022, 09:44 AM
He made his way to Poland to fly out, also in the picture he appeared to have a US passport making it easier

Afaik he is a U.S. citizen.

rickdugan
03-03-2022, 10:40 AM
Ukraine had already received Stingers from Lithuania before Russia invaded.

https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/1614946/ukraine-receives-stinger-anti-aircraft-missiles-from-lithuania

We've sent them plenty of weapons, which is why they've been able to hold out for so long. Russia's economy is already wrecked. You're just making stuff up to bash Biden. Ukraine is getting more military support than anyone expected them to, from the US and other NATO countries, and Russia is getting hit with sanctions far worse than anyone was expecting, or at least far worse than Putin was expecting.


I didn't mention Trump. Poland is sending fighter jets to Ukraine. I don't think there is any amount of weapons that can be sent to Ukraine that can prevent Russia from taking over their country, unless Putin chooses to withdraw. Russia's military is just so much bigger than Ukraine's. It's all a matter of how many losses Putin is willing to accept. If the Russian military loses enough tanks and armored vehicles, aircraft, and men, Putin may eventually decide the costs aren't worth it, and there is also the remote possibility that Putin could be removed from power.

When Biden was asked if there was any chance we would stop buying Russian oil, he said nothing is off the table. Even if they're able to sell oil, there's not much they can do with the revenue. Russia airlines are banned from Western countries' airspace. Many container ships are refusing to sail to Russia. Western companies are pulling out of Russia. Oligarchs can't travel to Western countries. Their apartments and assets in Western countries are being seized. Maybe they can look for some beach front property in North Korea.

If we sent them plenty of weapons they probably wouldn't be begging for more. We have also not sent enough of the right weapons - stuff that could actually help Ukraine control its own airspace against bombers and fighter jets.

As far as the sanctions, boloney. As long as Russia can buy and sell from/to China and certain other countries it has a pipeline to the financial markets. Most of those sanctions are more inconveniences than destructive. If we truly wanted to firebomb them, we would embargo their fossil fuels now and completely cut them off from all financial markets. But we won't because Europe is afraid to go that far.

Eagle, I understand your need to post apologist fluff - you like you're guy. I get it. But I'm a little disgusted at the dog and pony show, where we claim to be with the Ukraine people with loud and bold proclamations, but in practice sit back as they get slaughtered. We could have provided much more in a more timely manner. There is also a whole range of other weaponry that we and our allies could have provided to make the Ukraine too costly to invade, but we didn't.

I bet Biden and some EU leaders are secretly hoping that Russia will hurry up and finally knock out Ukrainian communications so that the images of civilians being slaughtered will stop flowing and Zelensky's pleas start to go unheard. That way they could stop feeling backed into corners and discontinue the ridiculous hypocritical political theatre that they are currently being compelled to perform.

SnuffleUffleGrass
03-03-2022, 11:15 AM
Just wanted to mention on here if you want to help the people of the Ukraine, donate to Doctors Without Borders or the International Red Cross

kamiliam
03-03-2022, 11:25 AM
Afaik he is a U.S. citizen.

yeah at first I just skimmed through an article, and didn't want to make assumptions about his immigration status. After reading more, it was clarified that he got citizenship in the 90s.

rickdugan
03-03-2022, 11:26 AM
This is actually a rare case where I think Biden is being justifiably cautious and is taking an incremental approach. It's a delicate balance to maintain whereby we help Ukraine without crossing one of Putin's "red lines". He has tolerated shipments of "defensive " weapons. He would not do so with anything that has a serious offensive capability like fighter jets and the like. A lot of doubts have been raised about Putin's mental state and how far he is really willing to go. Putin obviously wants to restore as much of the old Soviet empire as he can. The question is : At what cost ? Assuming he is able to crush organized resistance in Ukraine then he is certain to have a long running insurgency on his hands. Ukraine is a LOT bigger with a LOT more people than Chechnya.

I don't think he's remotely unbalanced. Indeed I think that this has all been carefully choreographed.

I already outlined my opinions on the timing re: waiting until the U.S. and EU firebombed their local fossil fuel production, thereby ensuring both greater EU dependency and dramatically increased funding for his opps. I also outlined how I believed he was testing the waters during that multi-week troop buildup and found conditions quite tolerable.

But now let's look at what has happened since. He started with an initial force that was rather more restrained. In response we (US and allies) supplied more modest weaponry and funding to the Ukraine and put in place sanctions, but nothing that Putin couldn't live with. So emboldened even more, he dramatically ramped up his attacks, but right before he did so he made the nuclear readiness announcement. This is yet another example of his calculated brilliance. He froze us into place right before he got serious and our tepid response, some additional partial sanctions and a few more Stingers to the Ukraine, was as good as he could have hoped for.

Until a few days ago I was actually more onboard with the incremental approach. But over these past few days, my opinion has altered as I've seen what Putin is truly capable of and the masterful way that he has played us along the way. IMHO he is a monster with imperialistic ambitions and it's getting to be about time that someone said "fuck Putin's red lines." Sometimes the only thing a bully understands is a baseball bat to the teeth.

When my kids come home from school each day they keep asking me why the U.S. and the world is letting this happen. We are watching a free democracy get destroyed. We are watching women and children getting killed en masse by bombs and artillery indiscriminately used against them. The longer this goes on and the worse this gets, the more I have been running out of good answers to give them.