View Full Version : What's going on in Ukraine?
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eagle2
03-03-2022, 12:21 PM
If we sent them plenty of weapons they probably wouldn't be begging for more. We have also not sent enough of the right weapons - stuff that could actually help Ukraine control its own airspace against bombers and fighter jets.
As far as the sanctions, boloney. As long as Russia can buy and sell from/to China and certain other countries it has a pipeline to the financial markets. Most of those sanctions are more inconveniences than destructive. If we truly wanted to firebomb them, we would embargo their fossil fuels now and completely cut them off from all financial markets. But we won't because Europe is afraid to go that far.
Eagle, I understand your need to post apologist fluff - you like you're guy. I get it. But I'm a little disgusted at the dog and pony show, where we claim to be with the Ukraine people with loud and bold proclamations, but in practice sit back as they get slaughtered. We could have provided much more in a more timely manner. There is also a whole range of other weaponry that we and our allies could have provided to make the Ukraine too costly to invade, but we didn't.
I bet Biden and some EU leaders are secretly hoping that Russia will hurry up and finally knock out Ukrainian communications so that the images of civilians being slaughtered will stop flowing and Zelensky's pleas start to go unheard. That way they could stop feeling backed into corners and discontinue the ridiculous hypocritical political theatre that they are currently being compelled to perform.
You're just making stuff up. You don't even know the facts. You bash Biden for not sending Stinger missiles to Ukraine. You didn't even know that we already sent them. You just made up that we were withholding Stingers.
If the sanctions were not having an effect, the ruble and Russian stock market would not have plummeted in value. You have no idea of what's going on. You just make up anything to go along with your narrative.
Eric Stoner
03-03-2022, 12:54 PM
You're just making stuff up. You don't even know the facts. You bash Biden for not sending Stinger missiles to Ukraine. You didn't even know that we already sent them. You just made up that we were withholding Stingers.
If the sanctions were not having an effect, the ruble and Russian stock market would not have plummeted in value. You have no idea of what's going on. You just make up anything to go along with your narrative.
PLEASE stop personalizing. Disagreement is fine but it would be nice and helpful if you stopped looking at any disagreement as a personal affront. It's not. Or at least it shouldn't be. Other people have a different worldview than you do. Try to accept it and post accordingly.
I for one have grown tired of your worn out accusation that people with differing views from yours are "making things up". No they are not. They are looking at sources that you do not like and never read. Those sources say that the U.S. and Europe have bought and are still buying Russian oil and gas ; that we and other NATO countries have put ourselves in this position in the name of fighting Climate Change. Did you hear John Kerry ? What was his only concern ? That Putin stay on board with efforts to fight Climate Change. Is he serious ?
kamiliam
03-03-2022, 01:15 PM
The extreme desire for many to make this about the US or any US president is disgusting btw. The world politic really isn't about us despite what your news sources tell you.
eagle2
03-03-2022, 01:25 PM
PLEASE stop personalizing. Disagreement is fine but it would be nice and helpful if you stopped looking at any disagreement as a personal affront. It's not. Or at least it shouldn't be. Other people have a different worldview than you do. Try to accept it and post accordingly.
I for one have grown tired of your worn out accusation that people with differing views from yours are "making things up". No they are not. They are looking at sources that you do not like and never read. Those sources say that the U.S. and Europe have bought and are still buying Russian oil and gas ; that we and other NATO countries have put ourselves in this position in the name of fighting Climate Change. Did you hear John Kerry ? What was his only concern ? That Putin stay on board with efforts to fight Climate Change. Is he serious ?
Please stop with your faux outrage. You don't say a thing when Rick personalizes. Rick is making stuff up, based on nothing more than his personal feelings about the Biden Administration. Rick stated the US is withholding Stinger missiles, even though we've already sent Stingers to Ukraine. It's obvious that he just made that up without having any idea of whether or not it was true. He also made this up:
Even now the current Administration is dragging its heels on sending the arms that it promised, no doubt secretly hoping that the Russians finish the resistance off before they have to honor their pledge. Oh and even when we do start sending aid, the Administration intends to hold back the Stinger missiles until a later date, probably the most important part of the aid package because they help protect against aerial assaults. It's all just political theatre for the masses now.
This isn't just untrue. I find his statement very offensive, falsely stating the Biden Administration is secretly hoping the Russians finish the resistance off. There's no basis for his statement, other than his personal feelings about Biden. This discussion is supposed to be about what is going on in Ukraine, not what President Biden is thinking. Political discussion is prohibited in this forum, yet Rick continues to ignore the rules.
eagle2
03-03-2022, 01:33 PM
As far as the sanctions, boloney. As long as Russia can buy and sell from/to China and certain other countries it has a pipeline to the financial markets. Most of those sanctions are more inconveniences than destructive. If we truly wanted to firebomb them, we would embargo their fossil fuels now and completely cut them off from all financial markets. But we won't because Europe is afraid to go that far.
You're as wrong on this are you are on the Stinger missiles. Chinese banks are restricting financing for Russia.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/china-restrict-financing-russia-ukraina-invasion
rickdugan
03-03-2022, 02:00 PM
You're just making stuff up. You don't even know the facts. You bash Biden for not sending Stinger missiles to Ukraine. You didn't even know that we already sent them. You just made up that we were withholding Stingers.
If the sanctions were not having an effect, the ruble and Russian stock market would not have plummeted in value. You have no idea of what's going on. You just make up anything to go along with your narrative.
You're as wrong on this are you are on the Stinger missiles. Chinese banks are restricting financing for Russia.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/china-restrict-financing-russia-ukraina-invasion
So it came out (after I posted that) that Biden finally was shamed enough to send a small number of old Stingers (not the new stuff) to Ukraine, a couple of Chinese banks now won't led to Russia and they've taken some hits in their stock and currency markets. That's really riveting stuff...truly. China has not suspended trading with Russia and it has far more than 2 banks. And btw how do you think that Russia is still collecting those European fossil fuel payments, by carrier pigeon? ;)
What we didn't do was send the Ukraine more advanced missile tech, our newer Stingers, cluster bombs similar to what Russia is using on Ukrainian civilians, advanced drones, fighter jets and a whole host of other tools in the arsenal that would be devastating to Russian convoys and planes. Sure they picked up some scraps from our allies, but not nearly enough. Also what we didn't do is truly firebomb the Russian economy, which we also could have done.
Now of course you could cherry-pick every little tidbit of additional assistance and every incremental sanction as if it was the panacea, but what we really need to do is ask why we never did any of the truly meaningful things that we could have done, but instead looked on in virtue signaling outrage while Russia slaughters the civilians of a free democratic nation. History will judge us for this and not well I suspect.
kamiliam
03-03-2022, 02:32 PM
So it came out (after I posted that) that Biden finally was shamed enough to send a small number of old Stingers (not the new stuff) to Ukraine, a couple of Chinese banks now won't led to Russia and they've taken some hits in their stock and currency markets. That's really riveting stuff...truly. China has not suspended trading with Russia and it has far more than 2 banks. And btw how do you think that Russia is still collecting those European fossil fuel payments, by carrier pigeon? ;)
What we didn't do was send the Ukraine more advanced missile tech, our newer Stingers, cluster bombs similar to what Russia is using on Ukrainian civilians, advanced drones, fighter jets and a whole host of other tools in the arsenal that would be devastating to Russian convoys and planes. Sure they picked up some scraps from our allies, but not nearly enough. Also what we didn't do is truly firebomb the Russian economy, which we also could have done.
Now of course you could cherry-pick every little tidbit of additional assistance and every incremental sanction as if it was the panacea, but what we really need to do is ask why we never did any of the truly meaningful things that we could have done, but instead looked on in virtue signaling outrage while Russia slaughters the civilians of a free democratic nation. History will judge us for this and not well I suspect.
Do you happen to know who the two largest banks in China are? Who actually has a meaningful financial relationship with Russia? Do you understand that perhaps any slight disapproval from their ally may have a greater not to mention safer effect then trying to poke Russia into WWIII?
rickdugan
03-03-2022, 02:44 PM
Do you happen to know who the two largest banks in China are? Who actually has a meaningful financial relationship with Russia? Do you understand that perhaps any slight disapproval from their ally may have a greater not to mention safer effect then trying to poke Russia into WWIII?
Safer no doubt, but if the continued advance of the Russian military in the Ukraine is any indication, certainly not "greater."
Has history taught us nothing? When has appeasement ever guaranteed peace? Every time we fail to act as a counter-measure because we are afraid of the reaction of an adversary, we embolden him. IMO the best way to ensure that we never have WW3 is to do everything (short of a direct confrontation) to ensure that he doesn't get the Ukraine - including its copious natural resources - and to crush Russia's economy to the point that it can't sustain a war. We fought plenty of covert battles with Russia during the Cold War, so we certainly have the playbook for it.
kamiliam
03-03-2022, 03:17 PM
Safer no doubt, but if the continued advance of the Russian military in the Ukraine is any indication, certainly not "greater."
Has history taught us nothing? When has appeasement ever guaranteed peace? Every time we fail to act as a counter-measure because we are afraid of the reaction of an adversary, we embolden him. IMO the best way to ensure that we never have WW3 is to do everything (short of a direct confrontation) to ensure that he doesn't get the Ukraine - including its copious natural resources - and to crush Russia's economy to the point that it can't sustain a war. We fought plenty of covert battles with Russia during the Cold War, so we certainly have the playbook for it.
Man you and I just see those situations in wildly different contexts and what is a bigger loss. it's crazy. I truthfully don't think war has served humanity since WW2, which needs a nuanced take in itself, despite the bad guys losing. YAY
But like give peace a chance or something. War isn't a videogame or an ECON study.
BTW I don't think idealizing any political figure is a good idea...I have been disappointed tons in my little political slut heart. I'm jaded AF
AChildOfBoredom
03-03-2022, 08:09 PM
Now a nuclear power plant is on fire, and they still haven’t brokered any sort of ceasefire, even for that.
https://apple.news/A9zLzgZxCQrCxFZJ5_TyhOQ
eagle2
03-03-2022, 08:41 PM
But now let's look at what has happened since. He started with an initial force that was rather more restrained. In response we (US and allies) supplied more modest weaponry and funding to the Ukraine and put in place sanctions, but nothing that Putin couldn't live with. So emboldened even more, he dramatically ramped up his attacks, but right before he did so he made the nuclear readiness announcement. This is yet another example of his calculated brilliance. He froze us into place right before he got serious and our tepid response, some additional partial sanctions and a few more Stingers to the Ukraine, was as good as he could have hoped for.
You're buying into this Putin mythology, that he's some type of supervillain and genius, which has nothing to do with reality. Putin is in way over his head. He was completely unprepared for the response to his invasion of Ukraine, both militarily and economically. He was expecting the war to be over in a few days, with minimal Russian losses and mild economic sanctions. Instead he is involved in a costly ground war, and even if he is successful in taking over Ukraine, he will be facing an insurgency, and will need to allocate a significant number of forces to keep control of the country. Putin showed the world how weak and inept Russia's military is. We now know they're no match for U.S. or NATO forces.
After Putin’s invasion of Crimea, the Ruble lost half its value. The Russian Central bank had to spend $130 billion to stabilize the Russian currency. So learning the lessons of 2014, Putin spent 7 years building up his Central Bank’s reserves. Russia’s Central bank stored about half its reserves in foreign banks. This would avoid the additional costs of cross-border transactions and give the Central Bank direct access to foreign currency and debt markets during the sanctions. It seems it never occurred to Putin that the Russian Central bank could be sanctioned. Overnight half the Russian Central bank's reserves, reserves that took 7 years to amass were frozen. The Ruble collapsed, the Russian stock market is still closed for fear that opening it will result in a 1929 style crash, the big Russian energy companies listed on foreign exchanges are trading at a tiny fraction of their former value and Putin’s oligarchs have collectively lost over $80 billion so far.
Do you know what the difference is between one dollar and one Ruble? One dollar. A ruble is worth less than a penny.
eagle2
03-03-2022, 08:55 PM
So it came out (after I posted that) that Biden finally was shamed enough to send a small number of old Stingers (not the new stuff) to Ukraine, a couple of Chinese banks now won't led to Russia and they've taken some hits in their stock and currency markets. That's really riveting stuff...truly. China has not suspended trading with Russia and it has far more than 2 banks. And btw how do you think that Russia is still collecting those European fossil fuel payments, by carrier pigeon? ;)
What we didn't do was send the Ukraine more advanced missile tech, our newer Stingers, cluster bombs similar to what Russia is using on Ukrainian civilians, advanced drones, fighter jets and a whole host of other tools in the arsenal that would be devastating to Russian convoys and planes. Sure they picked up some scraps from our allies, but not nearly enough. Also what we didn't do is truly firebomb the Russian economy, which we also could have done.
Now of course you could cherry-pick every little tidbit of additional assistance and every incremental sanction as if it was the panacea, but what we really need to do is ask why we never did any of the truly meaningful things that we could have done, but instead looked on in virtue signaling outrage while Russia slaughters the civilians of a free democratic nation. History will judge us for this and not well I suspect.
No, you just made it up. Biden was not withholding weapons to Ukraine, like you said he was, because "he secretly wants Russia to win." You have no idea of what is happening in Russia or how much the sanctions are hurting. Your view is based entirely on your belief that Biden is weak, rather than any actual facts. You're also ignoring the fact that Russia has over 6,000 nuclear weapons, including nuclear warheads aimed at American cities, which limits how much the US and Europe can do to help Ukraine militarily. I would love to see US and European forces move into Ukraine and crush Russia's army, but it's not worth risking a nuclear exchange that could kill millions of people.
Whether you're aware of it or not, Russia's economy is in dire straits. They're currency collapsed. Foreign businesses are pulling out. Ships are refusing to enter Russian ports. There are limits as to how much China is going to help Russia. China does a lot more business with the West than they do with Russia, and they're not going to risk it for Putin. At this point, an American embargo on Russian oil would be meaningless. American oil traders are not buying Russian oil.
If you don't like America's response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, why don't you write to the President and your members of Congress, rather than bitching about in a stripper's forum, which will accomplish nothing? Especially since it goes against the rules of the forum.
laurielegs
03-03-2022, 10:39 PM
Now a nuclear power plant is on fire, and they still haven’t brokered any sort of ceasefire, even for that.
https://apple.news/A9zLzgZxCQrCxFZJ5_TyhOQ
Holy shit.
They've all lost their damn minds.
SnuffleUffleGrass
03-03-2022, 10:50 PM
Holy shit.
They've all lost their damn minds.
What could be worse than a Pandemic?
OH, a nation setting Nuclear Reactors on fire! Riiight!!!!
///Truth is stranger than fiction
eagle2
03-03-2022, 11:50 PM
Now a nuclear power plant is on fire, and they still haven’t brokered any sort of ceasefire, even for that.
https://apple.news/A9zLzgZxCQrCxFZJ5_TyhOQ
The fire is out.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/top-wrap-1-europes-largest-nuclear-power-plant-fire-after-russian-attack-mayor-2022-03-04/
eagle2
03-03-2022, 11:50 PM
US-EU sanctions will pummel the Russian economy – two experts explain why they are likely to stick and sting
https://theconversation.com/us-eu-sanctions-will-pummel-the-russian-economy-two-experts-explain-why-they-are-likely-to-stick-and-sting-177896
kamiliam
03-04-2022, 02:57 AM
The fire is out.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/top-wrap-1-europes-largest-nuclear-power-plant-fire-after-russian-attack-mayor-2022-03-04/
They would have to use a much more powerful weapon/bomb or know how to properly mess with the reactors in order to cause a nuclear event. They are built to withstand this type of attack. More evidence to me that they are trying to shock and scare.
One last thing I want to clarify about Rick's escalation pleas. Stingers are fine, the Ukrainian forces know how to use them and are effective. Is newer better really? I don't know and doubt any of us do. ANYTHING else from US/UK will likely be unusable by Ukraine themselves. They are not trained on our equipment, this is intentional. It is not even their fault but their stuff is cold war era. Do you think we spend and hoard equipment to give to other nations even allies? Even if they all spoke English and could be eventually trained, this is all an excuse to bring NATO forces in to use them, thus causing world war.
rickdugan
03-04-2022, 07:06 AM
No, you just made it up. Biden was not withholding weapons to Ukraine, like you said he was, because "he secretly wants Russia to win." You have no idea of what is happening in Russia or how much the sanctions are hurting. Your view is based entirely on your belief that Biden is weak, rather than any actual facts. You're also ignoring the fact that Russia has over 6,000 nuclear weapons, including nuclear warheads aimed at American cities, which limits how much the US and Europe can do to help Ukraine militarily. I would love to see US and European forces move into Ukraine and crush Russia's army, but it's not worth risking a nuclear exchange that could kill millions of people.
Whether you're aware of it or not, Russia's economy is in dire straits. They're currency collapsed. Foreign businesses are pulling out. Ships are refusing to enter Russian ports. There are limits as to how much China is going to help Russia. China does a lot more business with the West than they do with Russia, and they're not going to risk it for Putin. At this point, an American embargo on Russian oil would be meaningless. American oil traders are not buying Russian oil.
If you don't like America's response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, why don't you write to the President and your members of Congress, rather than bitching about in a stripper's forum, which will accomplish nothing? Especially since it goes against the rules of the forum.
Eagle, please don't tell me that I'm making stuff up again. My sources are at least as good as, and probably much better than, your sources. Everything I posted about the weapons situation was entirely accurate, including the fact that we limited arms transfers to mostly small stuff and defensive systems AND that we even sent them older Stingers.
An American led embargo on their fossil fuels would be massive because it would essentially force our European partners to join in, which is precisely why we refuse to do it.
You can't claim that we are seriously hurting them in one breath but then say that we can't go TOO far or else risk pissing off Russia in the other. It's a direct contradiction in logic. Putin is no doubt counting on these sanctions being both manageable and short-term. Once he has secured the Ukraine, after of course killing many thousands of men, women and children, he will no doubt negotiate their removal as a condition of a cease-fire.
Putin relied upon Western cowardice and he's receiving it in spades. He whispered about nuclear readiness and we're ready to sit back and watch him slaughter innocent civilians. He bombs women and children and we do nothing but tsk tsk, add a few more limited sanctions and send some old Stingers. He bombs a nuclear power plant and still we do nothing - imagine if that plant had experienced a reactor breach.
This is a Ukraine thread talking about a war, so everything all of us is talking about is political by its very nature.
Now to be fair, this is hardly all on Biden. This was many years in the making. Even Trump was unwilling to send serious weapons to the Ukraine in order to avoid provoking Russia. But once we finally understood that all the pussy footing in the world was not going to curtail Russian aggression, we needed to do more to put a stop to it. If we let Russian nukes freeze us every time he starts this act, we might as well hand him Poland, Latvia and Lithuania now and save him the trouble and having to do this again in the future.
AChildOfBoredom
03-04-2022, 01:43 PM
They would have to use a much more powerful weapon/bomb or know how to properly mess with the reactors in order to cause a nuclear event. They are built to withstand this type of attack. More evidence to me that they are trying to shock and scare.
So was Chernobyl.
One last thing I want to clarify about Rick's escalation pleas. Stingers are fine, the Ukrainian forces know how to use them and are effective. Is newer better really? I don't know and doubt any of us do. ANYTHING else from US/UK will likely be unusable by Ukraine themselves. They are not trained on our equipment, this is intentional. It is not even their fault but their stuff is cold war era. Do you think we spend and hoard equipment to give to other nations even allies? Even if they all spoke English and could be eventually trained, this is all an excuse to bring NATO forces in to use them, thus causing world war.
The Mujahadeen were able to operate stingers. The North Vietnamese were using American aircraft against the ARVN forces during the final push towards Saigon. Iraq and Iran used captured enemy equipment against each other during their war, etc. Just because we don’t do it (which isn’t to say we never have) because we have the logistical and production capabilities to not have to do it doesn’t mean nobody else does. The Ukrainians are also using Javelin anti-tank missiles, Turkish-made drones, etc. Military equipment is designed for ease of operation. If you have a basic understanding of how equipment of the type functions, it’s not a difficult transition. It sounds like you’ve been watching Sputnik.
DeathAndTaxes
03-04-2022, 02:38 PM
The absolute danger of nuclear plants is meltdown, that the artillery destroys the cooling and safety system, leading to fuel meltdown and possible explosion once it hits underground water.
Luckily this did not happen.
As for Ukranian equipment supplied by the west it has to be easy to use and also easily hidden, although admittedly the VKS has not enforced air superiority so the latter is that dangerous.
Vyanka
03-04-2022, 02:39 PM
Slightly off topic....
Clubs should give free house and no tip out to Ukrainian dancers for the rest of the year. Some of them are coming to work full of anxiety with their family members in mind back home, working their butt off to send money to them. Fellas, tip EXTRA as much as you can.
DeathAndTaxes
03-04-2022, 02:42 PM
I only know of one, will definitely tip her next time I see her.
Vyanka
03-04-2022, 02:47 PM
I only know of one, will definitely tip her next time I see her.
Yes. Make sure you know. I can see some snake dancers making believe they're from there to try to hustle.
eagle2
03-04-2022, 02:51 PM
Eagle, please don't tell me that I'm making stuff up again. My sources are at least as good as, and probably much better than, your sources. Everything I posted about the weapons situation was entirely accurate, including the fact that we limited arms transfers to mostly small stuff and defensive systems AND that we even sent them older Stingers.
An American led embargo on their fossil fuels would be massive because it would essentially force our European partners to join in, which is precisely why we refuse to do it.
You can't claim that we are seriously hurting them in one breath but then say that we can't go TOO far or else risk pissing off Russia in the other. It's a direct contradiction in logic. Putin is no doubt counting on these sanctions being both manageable and short-term. Once he has secured the Ukraine, after of course killing many thousands of men, women and children, he will no doubt negotiate their removal as a condition of a cease-fire.
Putin relied upon Western cowardice and he's receiving it in spades. He whispered about nuclear readiness and we're ready to sit back and watch him slaughter innocent civilians. He bombs women and children and we do nothing but tsk tsk, add a few more limited sanctions and send some old Stingers. He bombs a nuclear power plant and still we do nothing - imagine if that plant had experienced a reactor breach.
This is a Ukraine thread talking about a war, so everything all of us is talking about is political by its very nature.
Now to be fair, this is hardly all on Biden. This was many years in the making. Even Trump was unwilling to send serious weapons to the Ukraine in order to avoid provoking Russia. But once we finally understood that all the pussy footing in the world was not going to curtail Russian aggression, we needed to do more to put a stop to it. If we let Russian nukes freeze us every time he starts this act, we might as well hand him Poland, Latvia and Lithuania now and save him the trouble and having to do this again in the future.
When I said, "we can't go to far," I was only talking about military action, not economic sanctions. What difference does it make how old the Stingers are, as long as they work? The US upgrades weapons all the time. The Air Force is still flying upgraded B52s that are more than 50 years old.
The US can't force Europe to embargo Russian oil and gas, even if we did it ourselves. European countries are looking for alternatives. Germany built ports for handling LNG from ships, so they can rely less on Russian pipelines. Even if Europe stopped buying oil from Russia, Russia could still potentially sell their oil to other countries, like China or India, instead. If Europe stops buying oil from Russia, then they'll have to get it from somewhere else, which means less oil will be available for other countries. From everything I've read, Russia's economy is in dire straits.
‘Rest in peace, dear comrade’ — on Russian TV, analyst toasts to the end of the country’s stock market
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/rest-in-peace-dear-comrade-on-russian-tv-analyst-toasts-to-the-end-of-the-countrys-stock-market-11646334929?mod=home-page
AuroraJade
03-04-2022, 04:30 PM
Eagle, please don't tell me that I'm making stuff up again. My sources are at least as good as, and probably much better than, your sources. Everything I posted about the weapons situation was entirely accurate, including the fact that we limited arms transfers to mostly small stuff and defensive systems AND that we even sent them older Stingers.
An American led embargo on their fossil fuels would be massive because it would essentially force our European partners to join in, which is precisely why we refuse to do it.
You can't claim that we are seriously hurting them in one breath but then say that we can't go TOO far or else risk pissing off Russia in the other. It's a direct contradiction in logic. Putin is no doubt counting on these sanctions being both manageable and short-term. Once he has secured the Ukraine, after of course killing many thousands of men, women and children, he will no doubt negotiate their removal as a condition of a cease-fire.
Putin relied upon Western cowardice and he's receiving it in spades. He whispered about nuclear readiness and we're ready to sit back and watch him slaughter innocent civilians. He bombs women and children and we do nothing but tsk tsk, add a few more limited sanctions and send some old Stingers. He bombs a nuclear power plant and still we do nothing - imagine if that plant had experienced a reactor breach.
This is a Ukraine thread talking about a war, so everything all of us is talking about is political by its very nature.
Now to be fair, this is hardly all on Biden. This was many years in the making. Even Trump was unwilling to send serious weapons to the Ukraine in order to avoid provoking Russia. But once we finally understood that all the pussy footing in the world was not going to curtail Russian aggression, we needed to do more to put a stop to it. If we let Russian nukes freeze us every time he starts this act, we might as well hand him Poland, Latvia and Lithuania now and save him the trouble and having to do this again in the future.
I assume you are in the USA and let me tell you its not that simple.
- We are 100% dependent on Russian fossil fuels. Cutting them off 100% would mean NO MORE GAS for the car. People just CANT HEAT THEIR HOUSES any more. It still freezes here at night. I giggle when I see Americans concerned about 6/gallon gas. I calculated it today and we are at about 10 $ / gallon now.
Wages , even in Western Europe, are lower than in the USA. We also all had extreme Covid measures and people are still recovering from the financial damage that did. Dont believe that we got financial support because us EU citizens and small business barely got any support. All support went to big companies. That 'welfare system' people in USA are always talking about that is supposed to be so great here, well let me tell you it is NOT. It barely exists outside Scandinavia
Our economies are in absolute shambles. I live in the RICHEST Western Eu country and I know people who just don't turn on their heating any more because they cant afford it. Our inflation is massive, bigger than in the USA. There are people who can barely afford food any more.
Cutting our economy 100% off from Russia would mean our demise. We do NOT want the USA to push us into this, and also more because the USA has nothing to do with this conflict. The nature of this conflict is Russia being mad that Ukraine wants into NATO. Thats why they were also threatening Sweden and Finland (which they have an agreement with, they are not supposed to join NATO and if they do they will be invaded). This has NOTHING to do with the USA and neither Trump nor Biden are responsible for this and should take their hands off it. Especially the USA.
Going to 'intervene' now would mean the demise of Western Europe and I think people will genuinely die from cold or hunger if we do so. We are already in shambles. Plus the risk of them dropping a nuke somewhere in Poland or Germany (which Russia also has a history with), we will be hurt if that happens, you dont.
AChildOfBoredom
03-04-2022, 06:12 PM
The USA has nothing to do with this conflict. The nature of this conflict is Russia being mad that Ukraine wants into NATO.
You kinda contradicted yourself there. If it has to do with NATO, what is NATO and who does it involve?
You also seriously miss the mark again in trying to oversimplify and direct the cause, which that match was struck in 2014 - even before then - especially seeing as Ukraine didn’t fully withdraw from participation in the Commonwealth of Independent States until 2018 in response to the war in Donbas.
And even that’s shortsighted, as the unrest which existed in Ukraine since the demise of the Soviet Union and which came to a head in 2014 goes back to Stalin’s forced removal of the Crimean Tartars and the Russification of the regions they lived in.
Who used that as a pretext to commit to clandestine military action in Crimea and Donbas in 2014? And who suddenly took a much more keen interest in joining NATO after they had literally been attacked by Russia in spite of the assurances of the treaty by which Ukraine former Soviet nuclear weapons to Russian control?
Seriously, you sound like these, “She shouldn’t have worn those clothes if she didn’t want to get raped” sorts with the shit you just said.
AuroraJade
03-04-2022, 06:37 PM
You kinda contradicted yourself there. If it has to do with NATO, what is NATO and who does it involve?
You also seriously miss the mark again in trying to oversimplify and direct the cause, which that match was struck in 2014 - even before then - especially seeing as Ukraine didn’t fully withdraw from participation in the Commonwealth of Independent States until 2018 in response to the war in Donbas.
And even that’s shortsighted, as the unrest which existed in Ukraine since the demise of the Soviet Union and which came to a head in 2014 goes back to Stalin’s forced removal of the Crimean Tartars and the Russification of the regions they lived in.
Who used that as a pretext to commit to clandestine military action in Crimea and Donbas in 2014? And who suddenly took a much more keen interest in joining NATO after they had literally been attacked by Russia in spite of the assurances of the treaty by which Ukraine former Soviet nuclear weapons to Russian control?
Seriously, you sound like these, “She shouldn’t have worn those clothes if she didn’t want to get raped” sorts with the shit you just said.
I just dont wanna get bombed and die, lol. Or pay 300/month for electric bill
That last sentence? Why are you so angry, lol? Its just politics. We cant change it and its all orchestrated anyway because somewhere somebody profits big from this. Its allllllll about money in the end and innocent people are the victim
This is all a theater like the last 20 years are a big theater. I just dont wanna make the theater so big its gonna cost me my life or my ways to live comfortable or peoples lives
Joe Biden just needs to STFU. Nato needs to STFU too , I dont even want Nato, and Putin needs to STFU too and all the other country leaders need to keep their fucking mouths shut because they are leading us straight into a nuclear winter and pretending they all speak for 'their people' while literally nobody asked for their opinion on anything because they are all just puppets. Lets see how quick this is finished when nobody gives these power tripping puppets any attention.
rickdugan
03-04-2022, 06:59 PM
When I said, "we can't go to far," I was only talking about military action, not economic sanctions. What difference does it make how old the Stingers are, as long as they work? The US upgrades weapons all the time. The Air Force is still flying upgraded B52s that are more than 50 years old.
The US can't force Europe to embargo Russian oil and gas, even if we did it ourselves. European countries are looking for alternatives. Germany built ports for handling LNG from ships, so they can rely less on Russian pipelines. Even if Europe stopped buying oil from Russia, Russia could still potentially sell their oil to other countries, like China or India, instead. If Europe stops buying oil from Russia, then they'll have to get it from somewhere else, which means less oil will be available for other countries. From everything I've read, Russia's economy is in dire straits.
‘Rest in peace, dear comrade’ — on Russian TV, analyst toasts to the end of the country’s stock market
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/rest-in-peace-dear-comrade-on-russian-tv-analyst-toasts-to-the-end-of-the-countrys-stock-market-11646334929?mod=home-page
Eagle, I've already outlined examples of the weapons we could have shared that would have made a real difference. Feel free to address it instead of talking around it.
And you're utterly wrong about what we can do economically. It's just a matter of what we are willing to do. We could kick them off of SWFT completely, including the fossil fuel payments that we carved out of the sanction. This would by default force our allies onboard since no fossil fuel money flowing to Russia means no fuel deliveries.
We could also blacklist any company from doing business in the U.S. that doesn't honor an embargo of Russian goods and services, which, if you looked back in history, you'd find essentially forces our allies and many other countries onboard as most of their multi-national companies do heavy business with the U.S. I can assure you that Shell PLC would not have bought another 100,000 metric tons of oil from a Russian oil tanker today if this was in place as the U.S. means a heck of a lot more to them than Russia.
Now would another U.S. President take a harsher stand? I really don't know, but I would like to think so. But let's stop with the Kabuki Theater already that we truly care whether Russia is slaughtering women and children because, while we may to an extent, we don't care enough to do anything that could stop it.
rickdugan
03-04-2022, 07:18 PM
Another information update: Putin is now blocking access to Facebook in Russia. Apparently he doesn't want his own people seeing what's actually happening in the Ukraine.
CFMNH44
03-05-2022, 01:25 AM
I've been following former chess champion Garry Kasparov:
https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/status/1499439820363468802
"As I said in 2014 and a fateful week ago, the price of stopping a dictator always goes up. What would have been enough to stop Putin 8 years or 6 months or 2 weeks ago is not enough today, and the price will rise again tomorrow. Fight. Find a way"
Putin is a bully, no one ever stood up to him. After he stole Bob Kraft's Super Bowl ring, the current President Bush said to say it was a gift to not 'damage public relations' with him... The former KGB agent has poisoned opponents in Europe and gotten away with it. He continues.
One other thought - Ukrainian President Zelenskyy is a trained actor - He will play the role, motivating his troops to the death.
whirlerz
03-05-2022, 07:10 AM
I've been following former chess champion Garry Kasparov:
https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/status/1499439820363468802
"As I said in 2014 and a fateful week ago, the price of stopping a dictator always goes up. What would have been enough to stop Putin 8 years or 6 months or 2 weeks ago is not enough today, and the price will rise again tomorrow. Fight. Find a way"
Putin is a bully, no one ever stood up to him. After he stole Bob Kraft's Super Bowl ring, the current President Bush said to say it was a gift to not 'damage public relations' with him... The former KGB agent has poisoned opponents in Europe and gotten away with it. He continues.
One other thought - Ukrainian President Zelenskyy is a trained actor - He will play the role, motivating his troops to the death.
Interesting, thank you.
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-putin-intentions-war-zelensky-1684887
eagle2
03-05-2022, 12:40 PM
Eagle, I've already outlined examples of the weapons we could have shared that would have made a real difference. Feel free to address it instead of talking around it.
No you didn't, other than saying we should sent Ukraine Stingers and F16s. We've already sent them Stingers, which your great sources didn't tell you. You don't understand that it would take months or years to integrate a weapon system as complex as the F16 into Ukraine's military. You also don't understand that Ukraine's MIG 29s are just as capable as F16s, and Ukraine has decades of experience operating them.
And you're utterly wrong about what we can do economically. It's just a matter of what we are willing to do. We could kick them off of SWFT completely, including the fossil fuel payments that we carved out of the sanction. This would by default force our allies onboard since no fossil fuel money flowing to Russia means no fuel deliveries.
Please explain how this will make any difference at all, on the war going on in Ukraine.
moneybags
03-05-2022, 12:59 PM
I've been following former chess champion Garry Kasparov:
https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/status/1499439820363468802
"As I said in 2014 and a fateful week ago, the price of stopping a dictator always goes up. What would have been enough to stop Putin 8 years or 6 months or 2 weeks ago is not enough today, and the price will rise again tomorrow. Fight. Find a way"
Putin is a bully, no one ever stood up to him. After he stole Bob Kraft's Super Bowl ring, the current President Bush said to say it was a gift to not 'damage public relations' with him... The former KGB agent has poisoned opponents in Europe and gotten away with it. He continues.
One other thought - Ukrainian President Zelenskyy is a trained actor - He will play the role, motivating his troops to the death.
Well. I don’t want to go to war with Russia, but one thing I learned as a domestic violence victim is you can never appease an abuser-they will always up the ante. So I keep thinking, “he is going to invade a NATO country if we don’t stop him now.” Waiting for putin to stop is like hoping an abusive person will stop hitting you. If you don’t leave they’ll eventually kill you one day. It never gets better. Why do they think Putin will stop at Ukraine? We’re eventually going to go to war with Russia unless the sanctions stop him or he gets overthrown. That’s the only way this ends war, the sanctions cripple him so bad economically he can’t afford a war, or people stop listening to him and over throw him.
eagle2
03-05-2022, 01:50 PM
So sorry that you were a domestic violence victim.
Putin is not going to invade a NATO country because NATO is much stronger militarily and economically than Russia. If Putin were to start a war with NATO, the end result would be getting his military destroyed. He invaded Ukraine because Ukraine is weaker than Russia.
rickdugan
03-05-2022, 03:28 PM
No you didn't, other than saying we should sent Ukraine Stingers and F16s. We've already sent them Stingers, which your great sources didn't tell you. You don't understand that it would take months or years to integrate a weapon system as complex as the F16 into Ukraine's military. You also don't understand that Ukraine's MIG 29s are just as capable as F16s, and Ukraine has decades of experience operating them.
Please explain how this will make any difference at all, on the war going on in Ukraine.
You must have missed my post about fighter jets, cluster bombs, more advanced drones, etc., etc. Please scroll above so I don't have to repeat myself.
And how would they make a difference? Control of the skies is crucial to control of the ground. For example, that 40 mile Russian convoy that has been just sitting there for days shouldn't be stalled - it should be 40 miles of metal parts and Russian bodies. It's just been sitting there for several days right out in the open and while the Ukrainians have sufficient arms to stall it and hit it in strategic places, it doesn't have the ability to wipe it out.
You're also assuming I meant F-16s but I guess you've missed what's been happening on this topic too. 4 days ago Poland was ready to hand over 70 MIG 29s to the Ukraine, which Ukrainian pilots are already trained to fly. 2 days later NATO suddenly put the kibosh on the plan for fear that it would be going too far. You don't think that the U.S. played a role in that?
Zelensky was on a call with 200 U.S. Congressmen this morning pleading for help. He first asked for a no fly zone but, if that was not possible, he asked for the U.S. to let him have the damned planes. He also asked Congress to support more significant fossil fuel embargoes against Russia - duh.
Btw why do you think that Poland, Latvia and Lithuania are bending over backwards trying to help the Ukraine even while the cowardly leaders of the west keep dragging their feet? I'm guessing because they are justifiably afraid that if the Ukraine falls then they are next. That fear could only be reinforced by seeing Western EU leaders so afraid of losing their fuel and then, joined by the U.S. Administration, become even more frozen in place - while women and children are slaughtered - just because Putin uttered the word "nuclear."
eagle2
03-05-2022, 03:43 PM
And how would they make a difference? Control of the skies is crucial to control of the ground. For example, that 40 mile Russian convoy that has been just sitting there for days shouldn't be stalled - it should be 40 miles of metal parts and Russian bodies. It's just been sitting there for several days right out in the open and while the Ukrainians have sufficient arms to stall it and hit it in strategic places, it doesn't have the ability to wipe it out.
I was specifically asking you how the sanctions you propose would make any difference in the war, not weapon sales. This is what I replied to:
And you're utterly wrong about what we can do economically. It's just a matter of what we are willing to do. We could kick them off of SWFT completely, including the fossil fuel payments that we carved out of the sanction. This would by default force our allies onboard since no fossil fuel money flowing to Russia means no fuel deliveries.
rickdugan
03-05-2022, 03:56 PM
I was specifically asking you how the sanctions you propose would make any difference in the war, not weapon sales. This is what I replied to:
What do you think would happen to any country if you severely restrict something that represents almost half of its income? And maybe even that is not enough at first, but it puts a hell of a lot more pressure on Putin to consider a ceasefire. President Zelensky seems to believe this as well, which is why just this morning he was pleading with 200 members of Congress to do exactly what I've been discussing - completely embargo Russian fossil fuels.
roseforarose
03-05-2022, 04:53 PM
I'm starting to think that someone in Russia, like the collective Russian people or an annoyed oligarch or a political rival for example, has to strip Putin of all his political power in order for this not to escalate. Putin is probably not going to accept defeat in Ukraine, no matter what the rest of the world does, because if there is anything more fragile than the Russian economy right now it is the male authoritarian ego of that man. The more desperate he gets to win this the less he is going to care about what he takes down in the process.
At least everyone has realised by now that you definitely can't separate politics and economy the way we've been doing left and right for years, you just can't be dependant on Russian gas the way Germany has been for example, and this realisation is going to hurt the Russian economy long term for sure, regardless of how long the war and the sanctions last. I can imagine lots of countries are taking a long, hard look at their options right now in an effort to as fast as possible shift their dependance from the big fossil fuel states (not just Russia) to a more sustainable and less risky option.
Escalate in what sense? I don't think Putin is going to be defeated in Ukraine, the war is likely going to be longer than he intended, but ultimately Russia has more military might and is seemingly willing to destroy as much of Ukraine as is needed for their surrender, or to kill their leaders and take over. I don't think he cares about how many people die in the process, but the more that die the worse his public image is and the more he really has to sell his 'defeating the ultra-nationalists' story to the Russian people.
The one (very small) bit of solace I'm getting in this is that the dude is old, hopefully he won't be able to do too much damage with the rest of his (hopefully short) life. I'm not holding out for him being overthrown though, is seems unlikely.
I agree this has definitely been a wake up call for the West, seems ridiculous that these rich lawmakers decided to just entrust their country's power supply, election funding, best real estate, and god knows what else to Russia . But hey ho that's what happens when we have imbeciles who only care about money ruling us.
eagle2
03-05-2022, 06:24 PM
You must have missed my post about fighter jets, cluster bombs, more advanced drones, etc., etc. Please scroll above so I don't have to repeat myself.
The US doesn't publicize what weapons are being sent to Ukraine. You don't know what weapons they've been provided with. You don't know if American cluster bombs are compatible with MIG 29s. Ukraine has shot down dozens of Russian aircraft and destroyed hundreds of Russian tanks. They could not have done this without a massive amount of help from the US and our European allies.
You're also assuming I meant F-16s but I guess you've missed what's been happening on this topic too. 4 days ago Poland was ready to hand over 70 MIG 29s to the Ukraine, which Ukrainian pilots are already trained to fly. 2 days later NATO suddenly put the kibosh on the plan for fear that it would be going too far. You don't think that the U.S. played a role in that?
Zelensky was on a call with 200 U.S. Congressmen this morning pleading for help. He first asked for a no fly zone but, if that was not possible, he asked for the U.S. to let him have the damned planes. He also asked Congress to support more significant fossil fuel embargoes against Russia - duh.
Btw why do you think that Poland, Latvia and Lithuania are bending over backwards trying to help the Ukraine even while the cowardly leaders of the west keep dragging their feet? I'm guessing because they are justifiably afraid that if the Ukraine falls then they are next. That fear could only be reinforced by seeing Western EU leaders so afraid of losing their fuel and then, joined by the U.S. Administration, become even more frozen in place - while women and children are slaughtered - just because Putin uttered the word "nuclear."
You're making stuff up again. Poland isn't sending fighter planes to Ukraine because Poland needs them for their own defense. The US isn't preventing them from providing the aircraft to Ukraine. Unless the aircraft have any American made parts, the US can't prevent Poland from giving them to Ukraine. Your views are based on a made up belief, that President Biden secretly wants Russia to win. You also seem to have this delusion, that arguing over Biden's policies on a forum for strippers, is somehow going to help Ukraine. Vyanka's one post, asking other dancers to ask their club to waive house fees for Ukrainian dancers and customers to tip them well, has done more to help Ukraine than your countless posts telling President Biden and European leaders what they should do.
LoveyD
03-05-2022, 09:19 PM
I read today a lot of people are supporting Ukrainians by renting out their air bnbs in Kyiv. Obviously they aren't showing up, but they are doing this to help Ukrainians get the $ they need.
kamiliam
03-06-2022, 09:37 AM
So was Chernobyl.
The Mujahadeen were able to operate stingers. The North Vietnamese were using American aircraft against the ARVN forces during the final push towards Saigon. Iraq and Iran used captured enemy equipment against each other during their war, etc. Just because we don’t do it (which isn’t to say we never have) because we have the logistical and production capabilities to not have to do it doesn’t mean nobody else does. The Ukrainians are also using Javelin anti-tank missiles, Turkish-made drones, etc. Military equipment is designed for ease of operation. If you have a basic understanding of how equipment of the type functions, it’s not a difficult transition. It sounds like you’ve been watching Sputnik.
Chernobyl was an accident. It also occurred during an active test involving the reactors, not in administrative buildings like at Zaporizhzhia. There was also flint present in Chernobyl's design, causing the fire to spread more. They are all meant to withstand a degree of military attacks.
I don't believe arming the eventual Taliban and furthering other proxy wars are the goals that we should repeat. Never said no one could use weapons from other nations, but not many of the 18 year olds signing up/being forced to die will after their 3 days of training.
Never seen sputnik, not a fan of the genre or Russian propaganda. Don't like the American kind either though.
Am a fan of this though. Explains why we shouldn't focus on one disgusting man and rather view this through historical imperialism. Who benefits from non stop war?
https://youtu.be/WZv0-0cx96g
rickdugan
03-06-2022, 09:46 AM
The US doesn't publicize what weapons are being sent to Ukraine. You don't know what weapons they've been provided with. You don't know if American cluster bombs are compatible with MIG 29s. Ukraine has shot down dozens of Russian aircraft and destroyed hundreds of Russian tanks. They could not have done this without a massive amount of help from the US and our European allies.
You're making stuff up again. Poland isn't sending fighter planes to Ukraine because Poland needs them for their own defense. The US isn't preventing them from providing the aircraft to Ukraine. Unless the aircraft have any American made parts, the US can't prevent Poland from giving them to Ukraine. Your views are based on a made up belief, that President Biden secretly wants Russia to win. You also seem to have this delusion, that arguing over Biden's policies on a forum for strippers, is somehow going to help Ukraine. Vyanka's one post, asking other dancers to ask their club to waive house fees for Ukrainian dancers and customers to tip them well, has done more to help Ukraine than your countless posts telling President Biden and European leaders what they should do.
No, it was being widely reported almost a week ago, at least in good sources. Then 2 days later NATO's Secretary General got involved and that was all she wrote. Now Poland's President is towing the party line, saying "oh yeah, we never intended to do that."
The reason that the Ukraine needs those planes so badly is that Stingers are not effective against fighter jets. They only have a 3 mile range and cannot go above 11,000 feet. They are good against helicopters and slow moving troop transports, but do nothing to stop the airstrikes and bombings against their civilians.
Now, as reported in a WSJ article this morning (which I won't link because it is behind a paywall), the U.S. is considering a deal with Poland that may, eventually, get the Ukraine those MIGs that are just sitting there in Poland waiting to be used. As Blinken put it, "we are very very actively looking..." It's a bunch of horse shit - Poland will do whatever we tell them to as long as we promise to replace those old MIGs with better planes.
So the translation is: We are going to make more toothless lion noises in committee and drag our asses on the floor until Russia finally bails us out by making this all moot. And yes, I very much believe that Biden secretly wishes that Russia would just finish Ukraine off so that these images of civilians slaughtered and pleas from Zelensky will stop making the collective leaders of NATO look so damned impotent.
But I will agree with you that Vyanka's "waiving house fees" suggestion.
DeathAndTaxes
03-06-2022, 12:06 PM
Yes. Make sure you know. I can see some snake dancers making believe they're from there to try to hustle.
Meh, it is just money.
Djoser
03-06-2022, 12:38 PM
Joe Biden just needs to STFU. Nato needs to STFU too , I dont even want Nato, and Putin needs to STFU too and all the other country leaders need to keep their fucking mouths shut because they are leading us straight into a nuclear winter and pretending they all speak for 'their people' while literally nobody asked for their opinion on anything because they are all just puppets. Lets see how quick this is finished when nobody gives these power tripping puppets any attention.
You left somebody out ;D
But yes, agreed. The oligarchs, east and west, should be removed. No more young men and women sent to die for politicians and grifters.
moneybags
03-06-2022, 01:25 PM
You left somebody out
But yes, agreed. The oligarchs, east and west, should be removed. No more young men and women sent to die for politicians and grifters.
1000% I wonder if all of this could lead to a great awakening where we overthrow our governments. People will wake up and change when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change. Right now I’d say things are pretty awful. We have to take responsibility for our complicity and ignorance too albeit unconscious. Not to mention the rich and powerful work actively to keep us passive and obedient. It’s time for humanity to collectively rise up against the rich and powerful and take back our power.
AChildOfBoredom
03-06-2022, 01:28 PM
I just dont wanna get bombed and die, lol. Or pay 300/month for electric bill
I’m sure there’s a lot going on which people in Ukraine didn’t want, as well. It was foisted into them.
That last sentence? Why are you so angry, lol? Its just politics. We cant change it and its all orchestrated anyway because somewhere somebody profits big from this. Its allllllll about money in the end and innocent people are the victim
I think launching an invasion goes beyond “just politics”.
This is all a theater like the last 20 years are a big theater. I just dont wanna make the theater so big its gonna cost me my life or my ways to live comfortable or peoples lives
Nor do most. Again, some didn’t have a choice in the matter.
Joe Biden just needs to STFU. Nato needs to STFU too , I dont even want Nato, and Putin needs to STFU too and all the other country leaders need to keep their fucking mouths shut because they are leading us straight into a nuclear winter and pretending they all speak for 'their people' while literally nobody asked for their opinion on anything because they are all just puppets. Lets see how quick this is finished when nobody gives these power tripping puppets any attention.
Neither Biden not NATO kicked this sequence off. You stop giving them attention, it works to their benefit. Why did Putin feel so emboldened now? Maybe the Crimea, Donbas, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Transnistria and the lack of response had something to do with it?
Chernobyl was an accident. It also occurred during an active test involving the reactors, not in administrative buildings like at Zaporizhzhia. There was also flint present in Chernobyl's design, causing the fire to spread more. They are all meant to withstand a degree of military attacks.
The design still should have prevented it from happening. Three Mile Island’s design should have prevented that incident from happening. The design of the Fukushima plant should have prevented that disaster. Not sure where you’re getting this optimism from, but stay positive, I guess.
I don't believe arming the eventual Taliban and furthering other proxy wars are the goals that we should repeat. Never said no one could use weapons from other nations, but not many of the 18 year olds signing up/being forced to die will after their 3 days of training.
“Eventual Taliban”. That’s cute. I think there’s an ever so slight difference between the Taliban and a nation seeking integration into the EU, but okay.
Never seen sputnik, not a fan of the genre or Russian propaganda. Don't like the American kind either though.
Am a fan of this though. Explains why we shouldn't focus on one disgusting man and rather view this through historical imperialism. Who benefits from non stop war?
https://youtu.be/WZv0-0cx96g
HAHAHAHAHAHA! Yeah, no spin doctoring there. “I don’t like propaganda - just ‘indie media’”. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Thanks, I needed that today.
Anyhow, I’m about halfway through it, but I have an appointment. I’ll follow up on the rest later.
kamiliam
03-06-2022, 02:02 PM
“Eventual Taliban”. That’s cute. I think there’s an ever so slight difference between the Taliban and a nation seeking integration into the EU, but okay.
that is what the mujahedeen are. I'm guessing there was a reason you didn't use that term while making your argument
yeah I enjoy the propaganda that agrees with what I think, everybody does though. At the very least that video really does give you a look into a viewpoint that perhaps you can argue is too naïve, but valid, I hope. I don't agree with everything they put out but that I did.
Your rebuttals to my responses, just to me don't invalidate my beliefs and my knowledge of the situations. Of course something horrible could have happened in the latest attack, maybe Putin will just do it. He is a monster. But it seems like they did it the way they did for a reason. Does it make it easier to think he has no plan?
I do not trust the United State's involvement in this situation. I do not trust past times we have given weapons to others in order to continue the Cold War. I get that others don't feel that way, but please understand that there are many ways to view history, and it doesn't always indicate lack of knowledge.
eagle2
03-06-2022, 03:45 PM
No, it was being widely reported almost a week ago, at least in good sources. Then 2 days later NATO's Secretary General got involved and that was all she wrote. Now Poland's President is towing the party line, saying "oh yeah, we never intended to do that."
The reason that the Ukraine needs those planes so badly is that Stingers are not effective against fighter jets. They only have a 3 mile range and cannot go above 11,000 feet. They are good against helicopters and slow moving troop transports, but do nothing to stop the airstrikes and bombings against their civilians.
Russia's air force is very undersupplied with smart bombs, so their aircraft are forced to fly low to drop unguided bombs. Ukraine has not had a problem shooting down Russian jet aircraft. It looks like they got another three today.
https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1500439001819455489?s=21
Now, as reported in a WSJ article this morning (which I won't link because it is behind a paywall), the U.S. is considering a deal with Poland that may, eventually, get the Ukraine those MIGs that are just sitting there in Poland waiting to be used. As Blinken put it, "we are very very actively looking..." It's a bunch of horse shit - Poland will do whatever we tell them to as long as we promise to replace those old MIGs with better planes.
Hopefully they'll get more MIGs, but Ukraine's air force is still flying and the Ukrainians have been able to shoot down dozens of Russian fighter planes and helicopters.
So the translation is: We are going to make more toothless lion noises in committee and drag our asses on the floor until Russia finally bails us out by making this all moot. And yes, I very much believe that Biden secretly wishes that Russia would just finish Ukraine off so that these images of civilians slaughtered and pleas from Zelensky will stop making the collective leaders of NATO look so damned impotent.
The facts contradict you.
Rick says: We are going to make more toothless lion noises in committee and drag our asses on the floor until Russia finally bails us out by making this all moot
Fact:
Biden approved $350 million worth of weapons to Ukraine. It normally takes weeks or months for foreign countries to receive American weapons, once the transfer has been approved. Within two days of Biden signing off on the assistance, deliveries were arriving at an airport near the Ukraine border.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/04/us/politics/russia-ukraine-weapons.html
The top U.S. military adviser to President Biden inspected the weapons transfer operation in an unannounced trip, meeting with troops and personnel from 22 countries who were working around the clock to unload the armaments for transport by land to the Ukrainian forces.
The American weaponry, which included the Javelins as well as small arms and munitions, was part of a $350 million package that Mr. Biden authorized on Saturday; within two days, one official said, the deliveries were landing at an airfield near the border that can process 17 airplanes a day. What began as a trickle — with only two or three planes arriving a day — is now a steady flow, the official said, with 14 loads from one airfield alone.
Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, included a stop at the airfield as part of a trip to the region. As he spoke to troops, cargos of Javelins rolled behind him. Nearby, two C-17s, the enormous cargo workhorses of the U.S. Air Force, sat on the tarmac.
The United States has delivered nearly 70 percent of the $350 million package to Ukraine’s military, a senior Pentagon official said on Friday. It expects to complete the entire shipment in the next week or so.
The shipment of weapons — which also includes Stinger antiaircraft missiles from U.S. military stockpiles, mostly in Germany — represents the largest single authorized transfer of arms from U.S. military warehouses to another country, the Pentagon official said.
Rick says: I very much believe that Biden secretly wishes that Russia would just finish Ukraine off so that these images of civilians slaughtered and pleas from Zelensky will stop making the collective leaders of NATO look so damned impotent.
Fact: Ukraine has shot down dozens of Russian aircraft and destroyed hundreds of Russian tanks, armored vehicles, and supply trucks with weapons provided to them by the US and other NATO countries. Eleven days into the conflict, Russia has made little progress. Putin and his military are the ones looking impotent.
AChildOfBoredom
03-06-2022, 06:31 PM
that is what the mujahedeen are. I'm guessing there was a reason you didn't use that term while making your argument
I didn’t use it because I don’t even know what the fuck you’re on right now or how the Taliban comes into the equation here. The predominant religion is Orthodox Christianity (with over 87% of the populace identifying as such) - just like it is with ethnic Russians, hence Putin has been calling on Chechens and Dagestanis to serve in Ukraine (and now Syrians, to boot). Not that guerrilla warfare and terrorism absent from Christian nations - including or perhaps especially Orthodox ones - but neither “Mujahadeen” nor “Taliban” fit the bill here.
Mujahadeen is a general terms for Islamic guerilla fighters fighting in Muslim countries. The Taliban is a specific Wahhabi organization which was formed largely with the aid of Pakistani intelligence to otherthrow the warlords - also Mujahadeen - who were left in power after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan.
yeah I enjoy the propaganda that agrees with what I think, everybody does though. At the very least that video really does give you a look into a viewpoint that perhaps you can argue is too naïve, but valid, I hope. I don't agree with everything they put out but that I did.
And the video isn’t without merits, but it is done through a heavily tinted lens. And in spite of being left leaning, one thing which always puts me off from the philosophies associated with it is their Captain Ahab-esque belief that altruistic egalitarianism will conquer all, ignoring not only human nature, but also conflicts which have been in existence between cultures for centuries. You can suppress it briefly, but that kid will eventually blow off, e.g., former Yugoslavia, former Soviet Union, Cyprus, etc. Even if Putin succeeds in Ukraine, occupies it, sets up a PTO-Russian government, his problems don’t end there. He did something no Ukrainian government has managed to do since the breakup of the Soviet Union - he gave them a sense of national identity.
Your rebuttals to my responses, just to me don't invalidate my beliefs and my knowledge of the situations. Of course something horrible could have happened in the latest attack, maybe Putin will just do it. He is a monster. But it seems like they did it the way they did for a reason. Does it make it easier to think he has no plan?
Your unfounded assumption that I lack knowledge of the situations doesn’t invalidate my knowledge of them, either.
Don’t be absurd - of course he had a plan. It just didn’t pan out, and he failed in pretty much the exact same way Che Guevara did in Bolivia, and which Napoleon made regarding Russia, ironically enough. Of the latter, he expected the cat to be in the bag in ~48 - 56 hours and didn’t prepare for a protracted war. Of the former, he thought the Ukrainians would lay down their arms and accept “their place” as Russians of a slightly different seasoning. Suffice to say, neither one happened… even some of (though not all) of the ethnic Russians took up arms against Russia. I’d have thought we’ve both been on this forum long enough that you’d know better than to make the assumptions about me which you have.
I do not trust the United State's involvement in this situation. I do not trust past times we have given weapons to others in order to continue the Cold War. I get that others don't feel that way, but please understand that there are many ways to view history, and it doesn't always indicate lack of knowledge.
So what then? Appeasement? You say you know history, so you should know how that fares. How much more emboldened will Putin becomes after this if he’s met with appeasement? He’s already threatened Finland and Sweden.
AChildOfBoredom
03-06-2022, 06:35 PM
Also to add, it’s quite interesting to see how diverse the Russia cheerleading squad is. The Wumao/50 Cent types aren’t a surprise, nor is a good portion of the “Brandon” crowd, but also the self-described Marxist-Leninist types, in spite of post-Soviet Russia having existed in what Marx himself described as the worst stage of capitalism since the dissolution of the Soviet Union.