View Full Version : What's going on in Ukraine?
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Djoser
03-09-2022, 12:56 PM
Obama ? Merkel ? Please don't try to blame this mess on "You Know Who". Sorry. Won't wash except that he DID restrict arms sales to Ukraine. Like his 3 immediate predecessors.
He groveled like a little doggie to Putin, repeatedly. Starting in Helsinki. I have never seen a US president humiliate himself or the office so utterly.
Eric Stoner
03-09-2022, 01:04 PM
He groveled like a little doggie to Putin, repeatedly. Starting in Helsinki. I have never seen a US president humiliate himself or the office so utterly.
Sorry. Not buying it. He sanctioned Putin a LOT more than Obama or anyone else.
How soon we forget how the whole Russia Hoax ( and it WAS ! ) tied his hands in negotiating with Putin.
Rather than get bogged down in "Yes he did ; No he didn't" let's agree to disagree and focus on the here and now. Just a suggestion.
eagle2
03-09-2022, 01:35 PM
Sorry. Not buying it. He sanctioned Putin a LOT more than Obama or anyone else.
How soon we forget how the whole Russia Hoax ( and it WAS ! ) tied his hands in negotiating with Putin.
Rather than get bogged down in "Yes he did ; No he didn't" let's agree to disagree and focus on the here and now. Just a suggestion.
You're either very misinformed, or you're gaslighting again. Trump strongly opposed any sanctions against Putin. Even after Congress passed sanctions against Putin, Trump tried to prevent them from being implemented. Trump idolized Putin. He praised him as a genius, for invading Ukraine.
There wasn't a "Russian hoax". It's an indisputable fact that Russian intelligence hacked Clinton's emails and had them posted on Wikileaks.
eagle2
03-09-2022, 06:00 PM
I agree that this issue between Ukraine and Russia goes way beyond the topic of just joining NATO. For Putin, Ukraine and Russia share a common blood, a common history, like brothers share a mother. And Putin feels Ukraine is betraying all of that, and the NATO discussion was the cathalist that turned the fire on and made Putin explote
When Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union, Stalin murdered millions of Ukrainians by starving them, so I doubt that the Ukrainians would consider Russians to be their brothers. The reason why Putin invaded Ukraine was because he doesn't want a former territory of the USSR on Russia's border, to become a prosperous democracy. He's worried that if the Russians see a prosperous democracy on their border, they're going to want the same type of government and economy for themselves, rather than the corrupt autocracy that Putin is running. Putin knows that NATO has no intention of attacking Russia.
eagle2
03-09-2022, 06:13 PM
Oh yes they were and Oh yes it is.
Putin served notice as far back as 2007 at the Munich Security conference that he was anti-Western. He repeatedly said that the dissolution of the old ?Soviet Union was a "tragedy". Since then he has embarked on an adventurous program and policy of Russian expansion.
Gas is currently selling in California and other Pacific states at or near $7 a gallon. In N.Y. it is well over $4 a gallon and projected to go to at least $ 6 a gallon. Thanks Joe. Let's Go Brandon lol to keep from crying.
No they weren't and still aren't. Our biggest threat was coming from Iran, with their nuclear weapons program. We were also at war in Afghanistan. There was also North Korea, who was developing nuclear weapons and long range missiles. Saudi Arabia was and is funding Islamic extremism all over the world.
Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia has never been a threat to the US. Even their invasion of Ukraine does not threaten America's national security. What Putin is doing in Ukraine is evil, and we should do as much as we can to support the Ukrainians fighting against Russia, but his troops in Ukraine aren't threatening the US or our allies. It's very unlikely Putin would start a war with the US or NATO, because his military is far too weak to go against the combined militaries of the US, Britain, France, and Germany. It would not end well for Putin.
eagle2
03-09-2022, 07:44 PM
Russia is at “imminent” risk of defaulting on its debts as Western economic sanctions choke off its access to dollars and other global currencies to pay lenders, a move that would have devastating economic ripple effects.
Fitch Ratings downgraded Russia’s credit to “C,” or junk status, cautioning investors on Wednesday that Moscow was careening toward an inability to make good on its debts. Moody’s and S&P Global, the two other dominant international credit agencies, made similar moves in recent days.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/09/fitch-ratings-russia-default-ukraine-sanctions/
Morgan Stanley’s global head of emerging-market sovereign credit strategy wrote in a research note this week that Russia could default as soon as April 15, when the 30-day grace period on a $107 million bond interest payment expires. Two more bond payments worth $359 million and $2 billion are due March 31 and April 4, respectively, with 30-day extensions, according to Reuters.
Russia’s majority state-owned gas giant Gazprom has a $1.3 billion bond payment due March 7.
eagle2
03-10-2022, 02:09 AM
2. The Russians waited too long to invade. Spring is coming as is the Ukrainian mud. This war will grind on for a long time.
China inadvertently helped Ukraine by asking Russia to wait until after the Olympics.
rickdugan
03-10-2022, 04:23 AM
Well Poland is now getting paid off to get back on board with the NATO party line. More Patriot missile systems are being moved from Germany to Poland to supplement what Poland already has. If Lithuania was smart, it would start making noise about providing MIGs to the Ukraine too so that it could get its share of silence missiles.
What must China be thinking right now as it continues to eye Taiwan and gauge the strength of any potential U.S. reaction? Taiwan is not a part of NATO either and China has nukes too. When they see us squeal and dive under the table at the mere mention of "nuclear readiness" could they now be seeing a path forward to invading Taiwan? What has this done to further encourage Iran and North Korea to keep developing their own nukes?
And what must our allies be thinking? Afghanistan was bad enough, but now we've also shown that a Treaty that we signed was not worth the paper it was written on. We won't even let them have old MIGs that might, at the very least, allow them to slow down the bombing enough to evacuate more of their women and children. How confident could Eastern European NATO members really be that, when push comes to shove, we will have their backs?
miss.a.p1600
03-10-2022, 06:39 AM
Now they’re tearing up maternity wards?!?
Not the innocent babies and pregnant moms……
Some savage shit going on rn.
Luci Fer
03-10-2022, 07:23 AM
When Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union, Stalin murdered millions of Ukrainians by starving them, so I doubt that the Ukrainians would consider Russians to be their brothers. The reason why Putin invaded Ukraine was because he doesn't want a former territory of the USSR on Russia's border, to become a prosperous democracy. He's worried that if the Russians see a prosperous democracy on their border, they're going to want the same type of government and economy for themselves, rather than the corrupt autocracy that Putin is running. Putin knows that NATO has no intention of attacking Russia.
Naah. Stalin starved ukrainians and he starved russians as well. He was pretty generous about sending russians to concentrations camps, too. No difference. Ukrainians lost so much when nazis attacked though, they were the first to lose, especially the Donbass area.
He invades Ukraine not because he is afraid to see the prosperous democracy there. Ukrainians have to go a long way to prosperous democracy yet, otherwise they would be in the EU already. He invaded because he doesn't want NATO up his ass, close to russian borders. Ukraine would let NATO set their bases on their territory, because they prefer the USA as their ally instead of Russia. who knows what NATO would do with these LNR/DNR guys.
It's not about NATO attacking/not attacking. It's about the control of territories, and everybody knows it. And if NATO is there, that means NATO controls the territory.
Nobody cared about the conflict, but it was there already, for years. Just bloodless. Now everybody is hysterical, because people started to die.
and btw what the fuck with the rumors about ukrainian bio laboratories funded by americans? is it true or another 'cool story'?
Zofia
03-10-2022, 07:31 AM
China inadvertently helped Ukraine by asking Russia to wait until after the Olympics.
Yes, the four day delay has meant the Russians are four days closer to spring and Ukranian mud. On the other hand, the Ukranian armed forces were brilliant in the early days. They cut the rail lines leading into the country. They took back the airport outside of Kiyv denying the Russians the use of air resupply. Four days didn't change that much.
Z
Eric Stoner
03-10-2022, 09:32 AM
You're either very misinformed, or you're gaslighting again. Trump strongly opposed any sanctions against Putin. Even after Congress passed sanctions against Putin, Trump tried to prevent them from being implemented. Trump idolized Putin. He praised him as a genius, for invading Ukraine.
There wasn't a "Russian hoax". It's an indisputable fact that Russian intelligence hacked Clinton's emails and had them posted on Wikileaks.
By "Russia Hoax :" I was referring to the disproven allegation that Trump colluded with Russia to steal the 2016 election.
As far as Trump's feelings about Putin I prefer to leave it alone except to say that in calling Putin a "genius" he was comparing him to What's His Name. A very low bar imho lol. At the time it looked as though Putin had outmaneuvered What's His Name . Later and current events call that into serious question to put it mildly.
Whether you like it, or agree with it, I give Biden a C- to D + PRE- Russian invasion and a solid B or better for his performance since . I don't see much that he could have done differently once Putin made up his mind to invade and gave the order to do so.
Eric Stoner
03-10-2022, 09:52 AM
No they weren't and still aren't. Our biggest threat was coming from Iran, with their nuclear weapons program. We were also at war in Afghanistan. There was also North Korea, who was developing nuclear weapons and long range missiles. Saudi Arabia was and is funding Islamic extremism all over the world.
Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia has never been a threat to the US. Even their invasion of Ukraine does not threaten America's national security. What Putin is doing in Ukraine is evil, and we should do as much as we can to support the Ukrainians fighting against Russia, but his troops in Ukraine aren't threatening the US or our allies. It's very unlikely Putin would start a war with the US or NATO, because his military is far too weak to go against the combined militaries of the US, Britain, France, and Germany. It would not end well for Putin.
Romney named Russia as our greatest POTENTIAL , FUTURE adversary. At the time they had already invaded Moldava and Georgia. 2 years later they took over the Crimea and fomented unrest in Eastern Ukraine. Assad would be dead or in exile if not for Russia.
At the risk of getting lost in the political weeds : " Russia has never been s threat to the U.S. " Are you serious ? Just where do you think most of their nuclear tipped missiles are targeted ? Paraguay ? Chad ? Bhutan ? Who has helped prop up Syria , Iran , Cuba and Venezuela ?
I don't know if Putin is crazy enough to try and take on NATO. Let's not find out if it can be avoided.
Is their invasion a direct threat to the U.S. ? No. It IS a threat to NATO and several NATO members like Poland and the Baltic states.
Eric Stoner
03-10-2022, 09:59 AM
Well Poland is now getting paid off to get back on board with the NATO party line. More Patriot missile systems are being moved from Germany to Poland to supplement what Poland already has. If Lithuania was smart, it would start making noise about providing MIGs to the Ukraine too so that it could get its share of silence missiles.
What must China be thinking right now as it continues to eye Taiwan and gauge the strength of any potential U.S. reaction? Taiwan is not a part of NATO either and China has nukes too. When they see us squeal and dive under the table at the mere mention of "nuclear readiness" could they now be seeing a path forward to invading Taiwan? What has this done to further encourage Iran and North Korea to keep developing their own nukes?
And what must our allies be thinking? Afghanistan was bad enough, but now we've also shown that a Treaty that we signed was not worth the paper it was written on. We won't even let them have old MIGs that might, at the very least, allow them to slow down the bombing enough to evacuate more of their women and children. How confident could Eastern European NATO members really be that, when push comes to shove, we will have their backs?
Rick - According to military experts Ukraine does not need old , broken down MIGs. They are fighting and more than holding their own in a LAND war. What they DO need are more anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles which we and our allies are supplying. Some say Poland tried to pull a fast one by trying to swap old , poorly maintained Mig 29's for brand new , shiny F-16's. Until the Pentagon said: " Hold the phone Freddie ".
Eric Stoner
03-10-2022, 10:04 AM
Russia is at “imminent” risk of defaulting on its debts as Western economic sanctions choke off its access to dollars and other global currencies to pay lenders, a move that would have devastating economic ripple effects.
Fitch Ratings downgraded Russia’s credit to “C,” or junk status, cautioning investors on Wednesday that Moscow was careening toward an inability to make good on its debts. Moody’s and S&P Global, the two other dominant international credit agencies, made similar moves in recent days.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/09/fitch-ratings-russia-default-ukraine-sanctions/
Morgan Stanley’s global head of emerging-market sovereign credit strategy wrote in a research note this week that Russia could default as soon as April 15, when the 30-day grace period on a $107 million bond interest payment expires. Two more bond payments worth $359 million and $2 billion are due March 31 and April 4, respectively, with 30-day extensions, according to Reuters.
Russia’s majority state-owned gas giant Gazprom has a $1.3 billion bond payment due March 7.
Putin could not care less. Russia's economy is already in the toilet. Historically Russia in general and Putin in particular do not care about such matters. They have gone through worse and survived. And eventually thrived. They have a documented history of enduring suffering far more than Western countries. Putin cares about winning and will force the Russian people to pay any price and bear any burden to achieve it.
They have defaulted on foreign debt before. Endured economic isolation. Survived massive destruction and dislocation of their industries. They have proven to be stoic survivors who have outlasted every invader and foreign threat. EXCEPT for Afghanistan. Putin was not in charge at the time and they were the invaders..
eagle2
03-10-2022, 03:21 PM
Naah. Stalin starved ukrainians and he starved russians as well. He was pretty generous about sending russians to concentrations camps, too. No difference. Ukrainians lost so much when nazis attacked though, they were the first to lose, especially the Donbass area.
He invades Ukraine not because he is afraid to see the prosperous democracy there. Ukrainians have to go a long way to prosperous democracy yet, otherwise they would be in the EU already. He invaded because he doesn't want NATO up his ass, close to russian borders. Ukraine would let NATO set their bases on their territory, because they prefer the USA as their ally instead of Russia. who knows what NATO would do with these LNR/DNR guys.
It's not about NATO attacking/not attacking. It's about the control of territories, and everybody knows it. And if NATO is there, that means NATO controls the territory.
Nobody cared about the conflict, but it was there already, for years. Just bloodless. Now everybody is hysterical, because people started to die.
and btw what the fuck with the rumors about ukrainian bio laboratories funded by americans? is it true or another 'cool story'?
Stalin didn't directly target Russia the way he did Ukraine.
There are already NATO nations that share a border with Russia. Estonia and Latvia both share a border with Russia. So does Norway.
eagle2
03-10-2022, 03:26 PM
Putin could not care less. Russia's economy is already in the toilet. Historically Russia in general and Putin in particular does not care about such matters. They have gone through worse and survived. And eventually thrived. They have a documented history of enduring suffering far more than Western countries. Putin cares about winning and will force the Russian people to pay any price and bear any burden to achieve it.
They have defaulted on foreign debt before. Endured economic isolation. Survived massive destruction and dislocation of their industries. They have proven to be stoic survivors who have outlasted every invader and foreign threat. EXCEPT for Afghanistan. Putin was not in charge at the time and they were the invaders..
How would you know what Putin thinks? I doubt very much that Putin doesn't care about Russia's economy being destroyed. It was the Soviet Union's poor economy that led to the communists being overthrown.
It's not a matter of whether or not Russia will survive as a country. It's a matter of whether or not Putin's government will survive. He has already greatly weakened his position both at home and abroad.
rickdugan
03-10-2022, 04:16 PM
Rick - According to military experts Ukraine does not need old , broken down MIGs. They are fighting and more than holding their own in a LAND war. What they DO need are more anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles which we and our allies are supplying. Some say Poland tried to pull a fast one by trying to swap old , poorly maintained Mig 29's for brand new , shiny F-16's. Until the Pentagon said: " Hold the phone Freddie ".
Eric, experts in the Ukraine and their leaders disagree. They have made it crystal clear, over and over, that their #1 need is more air power so that they can fight or at least slow down the bombings. Given that they are in the thick of it AND have no incentive to lie about their most pressing needs, I'm inclined to believe them. An old MIG that can shoot a missile at a bomber at 25,000 feet is better than no MIG.
Luci Fer
03-11-2022, 07:58 AM
Stalin didn't directly target Russia the way he did Ukraine.
There are already NATO nations that share a border with Russia. Estonia and Latvia both share a border with Russia. So does Norway.
What do you mean saying Stalin directly targeted Ukraine?
yeah- i haven't thought about Estonia,Latvia and Norway, you are right about it.
But Ukraine is another story, as everyone can see now. :/
lurkingtitties
03-11-2022, 10:23 AM
the Ukraine
It’s actually just Ukraine. “The” implies that they’re a territory rather than a sovereign country.
eagle2
03-11-2022, 12:42 PM
What do you mean saying Stalin directly targeted Ukraine?
yeah- i haven't thought about Estonia,Latvia and Norway, you are right about it.
But Ukraine is another story, as everyone can see now. :/
He intentionally starved the Ukrainian people.
Here's a good article on it:
https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin
techqueen
03-11-2022, 07:37 PM
Yep. Thanks Joe. Thanks Vlad. Let's go Brandon. Let's go Putin.
"Let's go Brandon" is the rallying cry of fools sadly.
--------
On Ukraine: It's sad what's happening but I must say I'm surprised Zelensky is still breathing. According to what i've been reading he's already dodged several assassination attempts? I'm inspired by his courage and love for his people. There's nothing like a man that will defend his beliefs and his people no matter the cost.
I wish we could do more. I want us to do more. I understand Biden's apprehension. However, Putin is a loose cannon. He will force our hand.
slowpoke
03-12-2022, 03:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_ie6vAvGnM
Eric Stoner
03-14-2022, 10:30 AM
How would you know what Putin thinks? I doubt very much that Putin doesn't care about Russia's economy being destroyed. It was the Soviet Union's poor economy that led to the communists being overthrown.
It's not a matter of whether or not Russia will survive as a country. It's a matter of whether or not Putin's government will survive. He has already greatly weakened his position both at home and abroad.
Is there any evidence that Putin has responded to the sanctions ?
Reports from Russia are that the general population has yet to feel any real effects from the sanctions aside from long lines at ATMs. Putin and his cronies certainly haven't missed any meals and a lot of their wealth is in crypto currency and can't be reached. They are still able to shop at most of the luxury stores still open in Russia or in Western Europe.
So far the financial sanctions are full of holes. The March 4, 2022 Treasury Department clarification of U.S. sanctions on Russian banks was issued and is helpful to understand what has been and has NOT been sanctioned.
Leave aside that no sanctions were imposed during Putin's buildup to invasion. The sanctions we did impose slowly , timidly and based on multilateralism do NOT apply to Russian bank energy transactions. They will not do so until JUNE 24. More than THREE months from now. We did so at the behest of our European allies. There are currently NO sanctions on global institutions and countries like China that finance the Russian economy. European banks are still invested in Russia and are not sanctioning the oligarchs.
The Russian economy is far from being destroyed. I question whether it has even been seriously affected. Yet. The Chinese have agreed to pick up the slack and let Russia use their currency to get around sanctions.
The linchpin of the Russian economy is not caviar , vodka or diamonds. It is oil and gas. Unless and until we attack it directly Putin will not feel any pain from the existing sanctions.
In 1986 thanks to Reagan's energy policies oil crashed to $14 a barrel. A lot of U.S. drillers and oil field supply and service companies went bankrupt. So did the old Soviet Union. It was so bad that they could not pay for their grain imports. Oil crashed again in 1998 under Clinton ( partly thanks to a very strong Dollar ) and Russia's economy almost collapsed. If we REALLY wanted to hurt Putin we would cut off all Russian energy sales and maximize North American output to make up the difference for our Russia dependent European allies.
Eric Stoner
03-14-2022, 10:36 AM
Eric, experts in the Ukraine and their leaders disagree. They have made it crystal clear, over and over, that their #1 need is more air power so that they can fight or at least slow down the bombings. Given that they are in the thick of it AND have no incentive to lie about their most pressing needs, I'm inclined to believe them. An old MIG that can shoot a missile at a bomber at 25,000 feet is better than no MIG.
Hmmm. They are the same folks who want the U.S. and NATO to enforce a No-Fly Zone over Ukraine. Assuming we could get the MIG 29's to Ukraine they would be prime targets for the Russians. They would be vulnerable to Russian anti-aircraft systems which are fairly good.
We had air supremacy in Korea and ended up with a draw. ( Thanks Doug .) We had it in Vietnam and ultimately lost. The Israelis have it and are still getting bombed and rocketed by Hezbollah and Hamas . I know that is small comfort to Ukrainian victims of Russian bombing but it is historical fact.
Btw, if repeat IF current reports are accurate and Russia is in fact asking China for "military support" ,what does that mean ? My guess is that they need to replace a LOT of destroyed tanks and other armored vehicles. Thoughts ?
rickdugan
03-14-2022, 02:41 PM
We had air supremacy in Korea and ended up with a draw. ( Thanks Doug .) We had it in Vietnam and ultimately lost. The Israelis have it and are still getting bombed and rocketed by Hezbollah and Hamas . I know that is small comfort to Ukrainian victims of Russian bombing but it is historical fact.
I'm aware that air supremacy did not help us as much in Korea and Vietnam, but Russia is willing to do things that we are not. Unlike the U.S. and Israel, Russia is willing to level cities and other structures without concern for civilian casualties. This very critical difference makes their air power a much more potent advantage than it was for us.
eagle2
03-14-2022, 02:55 PM
Is there any evidence that Putin has responded to the sanctions ?
Reports from Russia are that the general population has yet to feel any real effects from the sanctions aside from long lines at ATMs. Putin and his cronies certainly haven't missed any meals and a lot of their wealth is in crypto currency and can't be reached. They are still able to shop at most of the luxury stores still open in Russia or in Western Europe.
No, reports from Eric Stoner are that the general population has yet to feel any real effects from the sanctions. The ruble has lost close to 40% of its value. Interest rates are at 20% and will probably go higher. Dozens of western companies are pulling out of Russia. Many western products will no longer be available. Russians can no longer make purchases with Visa, Mastercard, or Apple Pay. Russian aircraft can't fly in Western Europe airspace, and soon won't be able to even fly in Russian airspace, due to lack of parts needed to maintain them. Russia's economy is in very bad shape.
Eric Stoner
03-15-2022, 08:45 AM
No, reports from Eric Stoner are that the general population has yet to feel any real effects from the sanctions. The ruble has lost close to 40% of its value. Interest rates are at 20% and will probably go higher. Dozens of western companies are pulling out of Russia. Many western products will no longer be available. Russians can no longer make purchases with Visa, Mastercard, or Apple Pay. Russian aircraft can't fly in Western Europe airspace, and soon won't be able to even fly in Russian airspace, due to lack of parts needed to maintain them. Russia's economy is in very bad shape.
What you posted is all true and so far, so what ? I am going by what The New York Times and London Times have reported about everyday life in Russia. Even if ordinary Russians are suffering from the existing sanctions, Putin has absolute control over the country. I have already read reports in both Times and the WSJ about sanction evasion. Mostly through China particularly Chinese banks. There were also demonstrations in London against complicity by British banks. Look up "Giant Washing Machine protest ". Funny and effective if you ask me.
The fact remains that Russia is still selling its oil and gas. And Europe is still one of its best custies. Did you read the Treasury Dept. briefing of March 3, 2022 ? It was no accident it was released late on a Friday afternoon. I did NOT write it or tell our Treasury Dept. what to say. The banking sanctions touted by Biden do NOT apply to Russian energy sales and related bank transactions. There are no sanctions on China for helping Russia evade the existing sanctions.
By NOT listening to Trump back in 2017 ( and even ridiculing him at the time ) Western Europe is now faced with three ( 3 ) choices for the SHORT TERM:
1. They can keep buying oil and gas from Russia thus financing their aggression.
2. They can reopen the nuclear plants they should never have shut down.
3. Burn coal.
Long term they have a few more options including more wind and solar. Imperfect though they may be.
techqueen
03-15-2022, 11:30 AM
Is there any evidence that Putin has responded to the sanctions ?
He just did..
The Russian economy is far from being destroyed. I question whether it has even been seriously affected. Yet.
You may want to try something like... turn the TV on maybe? Putin responded. Russians are suffering. People are protesting and being jailed in Russia. Putin has/or is planning to ban popular social media networks in russia. Russian influencers are posting videos all over youtube and telegram crying. They are scared and suffering. It's also been reported that the military is being fed food from 2013.
Do you even know what you're arguing about or do you just like to argue for the sake of it? It's weird. Putin himself has censored the media there yet somehow you think you know what's really going on there. All we truly know is what the media, journalists, pundits and russian "influencers" are telling us. If you watch canadian news like i do, you'll answer some of your own questions. Don't be an ostrich.
Eric Stoner
03-15-2022, 11:48 AM
He just did..
You may want to try something like... turn the TV on maybe? Putin respond. Russians are suffering. People are protesting and being jailed in Russia. Putin has/or is planning to ban popular social media networks in russia. Russian influencers are posting videos all over youtube and telegram crying. They are scared and suffering. It's also been reported that the military is being fed food from 2013.
Do you even know what you're arguing about or do you just like to argue for the sake of it? It's weird. Putin himself has censored the media there yet somehow you think you know what's really going on there. All we truly know is what the media, journalists, pundits and russian "influencers" are telling us. If you watch canadian news like i do, you'll answer some of your own questions. Don't be an ostrich.
Putin responded how ? What has he done to alleviate the suffering caused by the sanctions ? I am not arguing with you. Just asking . If you have better and /or more up to date info I am all eyes and ears.
eagle2
03-15-2022, 06:30 PM
What you posted is all true and so far, so what ? I am going by what The New York Times and London Times have reported about everyday life in Russia. Even if ordinary Russians are suffering from the existing sanctions, Putin has absolute control over the country. I have already read reports in both Times and the WSJ about sanction evasion. Mostly through China particularly Chinese banks. There were also demonstrations in London against complicity by British banks. Look up "Giant Washing Machine protest ". Funny and effective if you ask me.
The fact remains that Russia is still selling its oil and gas. And Europe is still one of its best custies. Did you read the Treasury Dept. briefing of March 3, 2022 ? It was no accident it was released late on a Friday afternoon. I did NOT write it or tell our Treasury Dept. what to say. The banking sanctions touted by Biden do NOT apply to Russian energy sales and related bank transactions. There are no sanctions on China for helping Russia evade the existing sanctions.
By NOT listening to Trump back in 2017 ( and even ridiculing him at the time ) Western Europe is now faced with three ( 3 ) choices for the SHORT TERM:
1. They can keep buying oil and gas from Russia thus financing their aggression.
2. They can reopen the nuclear plants they should never have shut down.
3. Burn coal.
Long term they have a few more options including more wind and solar. Imperfect though they may be.
Because in your mind, unless the US and Europe do exactly what you and Trump tell them to do, their policies are failing. You seem to think that as long as Russia is able to sell any gas or oil, the sanctions aren't working, even if Russia's economy is wrecked. According to you, if the US dollar loses 7% of its value, it's an economic disaster, but if the ruble loses 40% of its value, it has no effect on Russia's economy, other than lines at the ATMs.
techqueen
03-15-2022, 07:24 PM
Putin responded how ? What has he done to alleviate the suffering caused by the sanctions ? I am not arguing with you. Just asking . If you have better and /or more up to date info I am all eyes and ears.
You said the russian economy isn't suffering, and you're asking me what Putin is doing to alleviate the"suffering caused by the sanctions"?
What is it? Am I missing something? If I missed something, please explain and I'll answer fully.
Seriously though, have you ever left the country? Like do you know what it means to have your currency be worth less than a penny? Between the sanctions and the businesses that are leaving the country, Russia as you've known it won't be the same by the end of the year. I'm an immigrant. My father once told me "whatever you do, don't get in trouble in America. If America wants you, they'll get you" And I've seen evidence of this time and time again. When America zeros in on someone, it's game over. There isn't very much you can do when you're cut off from the rest of the world. And if China and India assists Putin in bypassing the sanctions they will pay. All of this is just the tip of the iceberg. You have no idea how much those people (the russians) are going to suffer for decades to come because of this. Forget the money, with this move he has made his own people societal outcasts. And to add insult to injury, he's brainwashing them as we speak. What Putin is doing right now is the equivalent of burning your own house down.
moneybags
03-15-2022, 08:12 PM
https://youtu.be/utkM1bwlXqE
Ordinary people just want the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It’s only the reptilian like elites that seem to have an insatiable appetite for power and control even if ultimately leads to their own destruction or life as we know it.
AChildOfBoredom
03-15-2022, 08:57 PM
their nukes
This is a bit inaccurate. The troops who controlled those - even after the dissolution of the Soviet Union - always took their orders from Moscow, not Kyiv. So the agreement wasn’t getting Ukraine to surrender strategic weapons they could’ve used as a deterrent against Russia or anyone else - the agreement returned Soviet strategic weapons to Russian physical control as well as operational and removed strategic assets of Russia (the recognized successor state of the Soviet Union) and also targets for the same kinds of weapons out of Ukrainian territory. So no, it isn’t a matter of, “Russia wouldn’t fuck around if Ukraine hadn’t given up their nukes”, it’s more a matter of, “Ukraine would’ve attacked Russian assets and have been seen as a rogue state by Russia and the West alike if they had tried to seized those nukes”.
moneybags
03-15-2022, 11:50 PM
https://youtube.com/shorts/m1oSi723p6w?feature=share
rickdugan
03-17-2022, 05:31 AM
Some will not like this but I think it is best if Putin does NOT "lose". Huh ? What ? How can I say that ? Zelensky said yesterday that Ukraine does not want to join NATO. Russia has said that they are willing to keep their Russian majority regions ( where Russians and Ukrainians have been shooting at each other since 2014 btw ) and be satisfied. This would enable Putin to "declare victory and get out. " The sticking point is to get them to withdraw from everywhere else. For now , I don't want to see Putin backed into a corner he can't get out of without dramatic escalation.
Sadly Eric I do not believe that you are alone in this thinking. The longer this goes on the more convinced I am that the current Administration is operating under similar concerns. We continue to need Zelensky to shame us and to witness countless more women and children dying in order to provide more help. In this last aid package we finally decided to provide some Switchblade drones to help knock out tanks and artillery systems being used to shell cities, but it took a constant stream of death for 3 weeks before we finally did even that much.
But even more important, we still refuse to give them weapons that they could use to destroy high altitude bombers and fighters in order to prevent the slaughter of innocent civilians. So the Russians keep bombing schools, hospitals and other civilian shelters. Those MIGs and S-300 surface to air missile defense systems are just sitting there right on the other side of the border and Ukrainians are already trained to use them. We know that Poland and Lithuania are eager to help even more than they have, but we won't let them. Instead we just sit by while children die.
But this is the very definition of "appeasement." Let him have what he wants now so that he doesn't escalate, assuming that he will be satisfied with the win. But do we really think he will be? You know what comes next - first he starts by claiming that one of our NATO allies is harboring Ukrainian "terrorists", then the same ol' song and dance starts all over again.
Alternatively, does anyone really believe that Russia wants a nuclear war any more than we do? Putin has children and grandchildren too. So do the Russian Generals who would have to cooperate with a nuclear launch order. I just don't buy that a loss in Ukraine would be enough for Russia to start launching nukes when they know that the outcome of that would be.
Eric Stoner
03-17-2022, 09:48 AM
Eric, experts in the Ukraine and their leaders disagree. They have made it crystal clear, over and over, that their #1 need is more air power so that they can fight or at least slow down the bombings. Given that they are in the thick of it AND have no incentive to lie about their most pressing needs, I'm inclined to believe them. An old MIG that can shoot a missile at a bomber at 25,000 feet is better than no MIG.
After some more facts , opinions from experts and pondering I have changed course. If we can send Ukraine Javelins and other weapons directly then why can't we let Ukrainian pilots fly MIG 29's from Germany back to Ukraine so they can set up their own "no fly zone "? Why is that "escalatory" but direct shipments of weapons is not ?
Eric Stoner
03-17-2022, 09:51 AM
Because in your mind, unless the US and Europe do exactly what you and Trump tell them to do, their policies are failing. You seem to think that as long as Russia is able to sell any gas or oil, the sanctions aren't working, even if Russia's economy is wrecked. According to you, if the US dollar loses 7% of its value, it's an economic disaster, but if the ruble loses 40% of its value, it has no effect on Russia's economy, other than lines at the ATMs.
Yeah. I am evolving on this as the facts are becoming clearer. Part of the problem is the limited reporting on the ground from INSIDE Russia.
That said, the fact remains that the U.S. is still sending $20 million a day to Russia to pay for oil sales. Western Europe is doing likewise.
Eric Stoner
03-17-2022, 10:05 AM
Sadly Eric I do not believe that you are alone in this thinking. The longer this goes on the more convinced I am that the current Administration is operating under similar concerns. We continue to need Zelensky to shame us and to witness countless more women and children dying in order to provide more help. In this last aid package we finally decided to provide some Switchblade drones to help knock out tanks and artillery systems being used to shell cities, but it took a constant stream of death for 3 weeks before we finally did even that much.
But even more important, we still refuse to give them weapons that they could use to destroy high altitude bombers and fighters in order to prevent the slaughter of innocent civilians. So the Russians keep bombing schools, hospitals and other civilian shelters. Those MIGs and S-300 surface to air missile defense systems are just sitting there right on the other side of the border and Ukrainians are already trained to use them. We know that Poland and Lithuania are eager to help even more than they have, but we won't let them. Instead we just sit by while children die.
But this is the very definition of "appeasement." Let him have what he wants now so that he doesn't escalate, assuming that he will be satisfied with the win. But do we really think he will be? You know what comes next - first he starts by claiming that one of our NATO allies is harboring Ukrainian "terrorists", then the same ol' song and dance starts all over again.
Alternatively, does anyone really believe that Russia wants a nuclear war any more than we do? Putin has children and grandchildren too. So do the Russian Generals who would have to cooperate with a nuclear launch order. I just don't buy that a loss in Ukraine would be enough for Russia to start launching nukes when they know that the outcome of that would be.
I am having second thoughts. Part of me is aware of Putin's biography and the story of the "cornered rat". In interviews Putin described growing up in Leningrad ( now St. Petersburg ) in a communal apartment building full of rats. He would kill them. One day instead of running away he cornered one and he ended up running when the rat attacked him. He said he learned that when you are cornered you have to fight regardless of the possible costs and risks.
A LOT of analysts have likened Putin to a cornered rat and expressed concern over what he might do if he doesn't have a way out. Obviously the fear is that he will get desperate and use tactical nukes or chemical weapons. Some have said we have to "defeat" Putin and "punish" his aggression. I get it. In a perfect world we could , would and should do so. It's not a perfect world. Which is why I still say a negotiated end is the most realistic end game .
Shifting gears, I am starting to see and hear reports that the performance of the Russian Army is even worse than initially reported. One said that a Russian armored battalion was supposed to have 30 tanks but because of corruption it only had 5. The other 25 were sold by Russian generals .
Another issue is April 1. That is the day that enlistments are up for current conscripts. Will they stay in the Army ? Leave ? Who will replace them ?
Eric Stoner
03-17-2022, 10:07 AM
This is a bit inaccurate. The troops who controlled those - even after the dissolution of the Soviet Union - always took their orders from Moscow, not Kyiv. So the agreement wasn’t getting Ukraine to surrender strategic weapons they could’ve used as a deterrent against Russia or anyone else - the agreement returned Soviet strategic weapons to Russian physical control as well as operational and removed strategic assets of Russia (the recognized successor state of the Soviet Union) and also targets for the same kinds of weapons out of Ukrainian territory. So no, it isn’t a matter of, “Russia wouldn’t fuck around if Ukraine hadn’t given up their nukes”, it’s more a matter of, “Ukraine would’ve attacked Russian assets and have been seen as a rogue state by Russia and the West alike if they had tried to seized those nukes”.
I ought to have been more clear. You are right that those were Russian nukes on Ukrainian soil. However Ukraine agreed to let them go back to Russia and NOT to replace them with nukes of their own.
rickdugan
03-17-2022, 10:49 AM
I am having second thoughts. Part of me is aware of Putin's biography and the story of the "cornered rat". In interviews Putin described growing up in Leningrad ( now St. Petersburg ) in a communal apartment building full of rats. He would kill them. One day instead of running away he cornered one and he ended up running when the rat attacked him. He said he learned that when you are cornered you have to fight regardless of the possible costs and risks.
A LOT of analysts have likened Putin to a cornered rat and expressed concern over what he might do if he doesn't have a way out. Obviously the fear is that he will get desperate and use tactical nukes or chemical weapons. Some have said we have to "defeat" Putin and "punish" his aggression. I get it. In a perfect world we could , would and should do so. It's not a perfect world. Which is why I still say a negotiated end is the most realistic end game .
Shifting gears, I am starting to see and hear reports that the performance of the Russian Army is even worse than initially reported. One said that a Russian armored battalion was supposed to have 30 tanks but because of corruption it only had 5. The other 25 were sold by Russian generals .
Another issue is April 1. That is the day that enlistments are up for current conscripts. Will they stay in the Army ? Leave ? Who will replace them ?
I don't disagree about the negotiated settlement being the optimal end game at this point. Even if Ukraine had the firepower to keep Russia from gaining any more ground, they certainly don't have the forces or the weaponry to force the Russian army out. Playing defense is very different than playing offense on that large a scale.
But do we really think that Putin is ever going to stop if he thinks he can win? While Russia can continue to drop bombs and shoot missiles into Ukrainian cities from high altitudes with little to no opposition, Putin has time on his side. Ukraine is not Afghanistan or Korea or Vietnam. It is a mostly flat country where a long-term guerilla style resistance would be much harder to pull off. If Putin levels their cities, they have very few places left to hide.
IMHO the only way we force him to the negotiating table is to sow serious doubts about whether he can prevail. That simply will not happen until Ukraine has the ability to knock those bombers and missile carrying fighters out of the sky.
rickdugan
03-17-2022, 11:00 AM
After some more facts , opinions from experts and pondering I have changed course. If we can send Ukraine Javelins and other weapons directly then why can't we let Ukrainian pilots fly MIG 29's from Germany back to Ukraine so they can set up their own "no fly zone "? Why is that "escalatory" but direct shipments of weapons is not ?
Don't forget those S-300 surface to air missile defense systems. Like the MIGs, they are also: (1) old Soviet era tech that Ukrainians already know how to use; and (2) sitting right over the border. Zelensky specifically asked for them in his last address to Congress and it makes a lot of sense. The Stingers are only good for a few miles and cannot exceed an altitude of 11,000 feet. That leaves a lot of high altitude airspace for a small number of additional MIGs to cover. Those missiles could make a heck of a difference.
Luci Fer
03-17-2022, 10:51 PM
You said the russian economy isn't suffering, and you're asking me what Putin is doing to alleviate the"suffering caused by the sanctions"?
What is it? Am I missing something? If I missed something, please explain and I'll answer fully.
Seriously though, have you ever left the country? Like do you know what it means to have your currency be worth less than a penny? Between the sanctions and the businesses that are leaving the country, Russia as you've known it won't be the same by the end of the year. I'm an immigrant. My father once told me "whatever you do, don't get in trouble in America. If America wants you, they'll get you" And I've seen evidence of this time and time again. When America zeros in on someone, it's game over. There isn't very much you can do when you're cut off from the rest of the world. And if China and India assists Putin in bypassing the sanctions they will pay. All of this is just the tip of the iceberg. You have no idea how much those people (the russians) are going to suffer for decades to come because of this. Forget the money, with this move he has made his own people societal outcasts. And to add insult to injury, he's brainwashing them as we speak. What Putin is doing right now is the equivalent of burning your own house down.
They are trying to create laws to support individual business which suffers the most now. (because of Instagram shutdown and master card sanctions)
They have created their own inner bank system and their own card after the first sanctions in 2014. The sanctions taught them not to rely on western economy too much and if they chose the war path, they are aware it will be sucky. I guess they will be isolated and they will isolate themselves and this sucks too, because hellloooo ussr. Anybody was missing it?:(
Nobody cares about people there. These who work for federal corps will be ok and I guess they think russians will go through it...somehow. People who work for plants that build weapons are paid well, too.
Btw, did you guys watch the video where the editor of russian news stood there with "No War" message while the news were on air? (14th March)
She also posted that she was ashamed of herself because they were lying on TV the whole time and should 've started to worry about it in 2014 already. (I guess when Crimea was annexed)
So you are right about brainwashing. They post the news like "Another drug laboratory controlled by ukrainians was closed in ... region" (in russia).
well, shit:(
whirlerz
03-19-2022, 12:06 PM
I really hope it gets resolved soon!
moneybags
03-19-2022, 06:03 PM
https://youtu.be/slZvbRj0naE
Great resource when the world feels too crazy. My teacher said world peace starts with peace in ourselves. Not trying to spiritual bypass this horrific tragedy, but something to bring you back to center.
eagle2
03-19-2022, 06:46 PM
Ukrainian dog helps the army
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl-4NcL_iBk
Bahuba
03-20-2022, 07:53 AM
From speaking to my friends in Eastern Europe, the world is irrevocably changed for a decade at least. Commodities, border issues, migration, security agreements, and international collaboration will all reflect the fact that the Pax Mundi is effectively over. Additionally, no nuclear power will ever give up its nukes again in exchange for "security".
AChildOfBoredom
03-20-2022, 07:55 PM
Additionally, no nuclear power will ever give up its nukes again in exchange for "security".
Ukraine never actually had those - someone else had them positioned in Ukraine, and they were always under Moscow’s control. There was never any realistic scenario where Ukraine was going to gain control of those. The agreement really just allowed Russia to remove Russian strategic assets (and a certain target for NATO in the event a nuclear exchange did occur) out of the country.
In other news, Russia is claiming to have killed the Canadian sniper known as Wali. Ukraine says otherwise.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/en.as.com/en/2022/03/16/latest_news/1647468372_697920.amp.html
DeathAndTaxes
03-20-2022, 08:06 PM
Ukraine never actually had those - someone else had them positioned in Ukraine, and they were always under Moscow’s control. There was never any realistic scenario where Ukraine was going to gain control of those. The agreement really just allowed Russia to remove Russian strategic assets (and a certain target for NATO in the event a nuclear exchange did occur) out of the country.
In other news, Russia is claiming to have killed the Canadian sniper known as Wali. Ukraine says otherwise.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/en.as.com/en/2022/03/16/latest_news/1647468372_697920.amp.html
Russia found out about the base in western Ukraine because the cellphones were trying to connect to towers using British area codes, basically Wagner group mercenaries (with links to Moscow) passively scanned the cell network and when these numbers tried to connect to towers they were identified based on intelligence gathering on British bases.
Essentially the only thing dumber than the Russian military leadership are the western volunteers.
Bahuba
03-20-2022, 08:35 PM
^^Regardless, you'll never see it again - no one will cooperate on nuke removal again. They could have kept them BTW, Russia had no option to use force