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kamiliam
07-14-2022, 09:36 PM
Dr did everything legally obligated to under Indiana law https://fox59.com/indiana-news/abortion-report-confirms-indiana-doctor-followed-law-after-ag-vowed-investigation/

Perhaps these AGs trying to make a name for themselves off a child’s rape should check in with their local cps before going on a media blitz to cover up their laws working as intended.

eagle2
07-14-2022, 10:06 PM
Yeah. After roaming around free since June 22 when his LATEST attack was reported. Why the delay in arresting this hideous monster ? Was it because he was in the U.S. illegally ? Was Dr. Bernard protecting him ? Were others doing so ?
Apparently he abused and raped that poor girl starting when she was 9. NINE ! And Dr. Bernard supposedly ( it's not entirely clear yet ) knew about this pattern of abuse and that he was walking around free for roughly 3 weeks after she got involved. What was she thinking ? What is wrong with her ?

As kamiliam said, Dr. Bernard did everything she was required to do. You should stop going to far-right sources for information. They're very dishonest. First you expressed doubt that the rape happened, then you accused Dr. Bernard of not reporting the rape, all based on reporting from the far-right media, and all of which is untrue.

SnuffleUffleGrass
07-15-2022, 04:44 AM
Honestly I'm delighted Ohio wanted to show the world how regressive they are as a state to risk allowing a 10 year old child to die by trying to deliver a full term child. It reveals the amount of incest and rape that goes unpunished in the Midwest.

xxxGothBarbie
07-15-2022, 09:04 AM
The ignorance of this entire case absolutely astounds and enrages me. I saw something last night some court was talking about how ectopic pregnancies don't cause any harm and can be carried to full term which is complete and utter bullshit! People do not know science nor care to learn about it.its only about money sadly.

DonaDiabla
07-15-2022, 10:50 PM
I find something very suspicious about people who think that 10 year olds can't get pregnant from rape, accused them of lying, and act like that's okay to accuse a 10 year old of lying about this.But I talked about this type of behavior particularly when it comes to right-wingers. That type of behavior usually is used to excuses things like pedophilia and incest. Or for people to think it's "great idea" for preteens to give birth to children they can't take care of.Finally,why is it so hard to imagine that this case is real? The most disgusting thing about this case is people particularly right-wing men thinking this girl lied or the doctor lied. It's sad because a lot of these people are sitting in congress, medical boards, and etc...

Eric Stoner
07-18-2022, 07:46 AM
No I am not. Abortion opponents consistently oppose legislation meant to help poor women, children, and infants. Abortion opponents in government consistently push for funding cuts to programs that help the poor. Most of the states that have made abortions illegal are also blocking millions of poor Americans from obtaining health insurance by refusing to expand Medicaid. Pregnancy crisis centers dishonestly portray themselves as medical centers and when pregnant women go to them, their main objective is to prevent them from getting abortions. Their "teaching" is mostly proselytizing. Opposition to abortion is based entirely on religious beliefs. There is zero concern for women or children. In Brazil, when a 9 year old became pregnant from rape, the Catholic Church made an all-out effort to block her from getting an abortion, even though it was determined that giving birth most likely would have killed her. The doctor who performed the abortion was ex-communicated from the Church. The man who raped the child wasn't. In Ireland, a woman died because the church blocked her from getting an abortion. During the AIDs epidemic, the Catholic Church actively opposed using condoms to prevent AIDs from spreading. So called "pro-life" people are anything but.

Not all pregnancy centers do that. Sadly some do spout misinformation and disinformation. Most of them , both religious and secular provide needed services : pregnancy testing , ultrasound , pre-natal care , counseling , parenting classes and provision of baby supplies. Some abortion advocates like Elizabeth Warren are having conniptions because such centers outnumber abortion clinics in Massachusetts by a 3 to 1 margin. In N.Y. it almost 2 to 1.
There are many people who oppose abortion who are agnostic or atheist. Likewise many Buddhists oppose abortion . If you LISTEN to women who have actually used these centers they overwhelmingly say that they experienced nothing but concern for them and their babies.

Brazil, like Poland and Malta , is very anti-abortion. In Ireland, abortion is now LEGAL. Please look it up before pontificating further.

Afaic there is nothing wrong with your being so pro-abortion. Nor do I have a problem with your criticizing the Catholic Church. But you take it beyond disagreement and feel free to release vitriolic attacks on both my Church and Catholics in general. Some without much factual support. If you don't like my church then don't go to mass. I think the position of the Church on abortion is far too extreme as do most American Catholics. It is based on a respect for life. All life. Not hatred for women. I stopped going to mass and supporting their charities for about 15 years not because the Church had pedophile priests but because they covered up for them. Thanks to Pope Francis I have been drifting back over the last 5 years or so. I also think the Church is wrong about birth control and gay marriage. And ordaining women and letting priests marry.

Eric Stoner
07-18-2022, 07:48 AM
As kamiliam said, Dr. Bernard did everything she was required to do. You should stop going to far-right sources for information. They're very dishonest. First you expressed doubt that the rape happened, then you accused Dr. Bernard of not reporting the rape, all based on reporting from the far-right media, and all of which is untrue.

If you go back and READ the original story it was single sourced and lacked any confirmation. AT THE TIME neither Dr. Bernard nor the authors of the story were very forthcoming with further information. AT THE TIME, they and Dr. Bernard ACTED like the story might be at least partially fictional. And as the facts came out I corrected myself as needed. I was the FIRST one to post that the story turned out to be TRUE.
Because it was initially unclear and incomplete I used words like "apparently "; "supposedly" and phrases like "not entirely clear". And btw, it appears that Dr. Bernard did not do anything wrong and fulfilled all of her professional obligations.
Afaic BOTH sides of the abortion debate were premature in coming to conclusions and hurried to try and use the story to further their side of the issue.

Eric Stoner
07-18-2022, 08:04 AM
As kamiliam said, Dr. Bernard did everything she was required to do. You should stop going to far-right sources for information. They're very dishonest. First you expressed doubt that the rape happened, then you accused Dr. Bernard of not reporting the rape, all based on reporting from the far-right media, and all of which is untrue.

Re-read my posts. I was far from alone in having questions and doubts. Most of which have been answered and allayed. Among others the Washington Post and other liberal outlets raised questions about the original story.

Eric Stoner
07-18-2022, 08:13 AM
I find something very suspicious about people who think that 10 year olds can't get pregnant from rape, accused them of lying, and act like that's okay to accuse a 10 year old of lying about this.But I talked about this type of behavior particularly when it comes to right-wingers. That type of behavior usually is used to excuses things like pedophilia and incest. Or for people to think it's "great idea" for preteens to give birth to children they can't take care of.Finally,why is it so hard to imagine that this case is real? The most disgusting thing about this case is people particularly right-wing men thinking this girl lied or the doctor lied. It's sad because a lot of these people are sitting in congress, medical boards, and etc...

THAT is the REAL concern about this whole horror story. I NEVER said the victim lied. Nor did anyone else afaik. Questions were raised about Dr. Bernard and the original reporters. Among other things , it was not clear THEN that anyone was focusing on the victim and her attacker. Inter alia they were accused of trying to exploit the story to advance a pro-abortion agenda. Now, NOW we know that even if they did , the story was TRUE ! And it highlights why extremism is so dangerous. There are people who are so opposed to abortion that they are literally willing to let a 10 year old rape victim die rather than see an abortion performed. To me that is as sick as it gets and such people are the ones who need serious psychological help.

Eric Stoner
07-18-2022, 08:17 AM
Honestly I'm delighted Indiana wanted to show the world how regressive they are as a state to risk allowing a 10 year old child to die by trying to deliver a full term child. It reveals the amount of incest and rape that goes unpunished in the Midwest.

I think you may have jumbled your facts. The child had to be taken from Ohio to Indiana to get the necessary abortion.

Btw, it looks like the Ohio Attorney General LIED when he said the victim could legally get abortion in Ohio. Apparently not . She was 6 weeks and three days along in her pregnancy and that was 3 days too far for Ohio. Even in cases of rape or incest.

Djoser
07-18-2022, 09:49 AM
If you don't like my church then don't go to mass.

If you don't like women pissed off about restrictions on abortion in their forum, don't come to the forum.

;D

Eric Stoner
07-18-2022, 11:54 AM
If you don't like women pissed off about restrictions on abortion in their forum, don't come to the forum.

;D

One thing has nothing to do with the other. Unlike some posters I respect other pov's besides my own and those that have those pov's.

I have made it very clear that I opposed overturning Roe ; that it was a dumb idea on several levels ; that it would have unintended consequences and was totally and completely unnecessary.

eagle2
07-18-2022, 01:21 PM
If you go back and READ the original story it was single sourced and lacked any confirmation. AT THE TIME neither Dr. Bernard nor the authors of the story were very forthcoming with further information. AT THE TIME, they and Dr. Bernard ACTED like the story might be at least partially fictional. And as the facts came out I corrected myself as needed. I was the FIRST one to post that the story turned out to be TRUE.
Because it was initially unclear and incomplete I used words like "apparently "; "supposedly" and phrases like "not entirely clear". And btw, it appears that Dr. Bernard did not do anything wrong and fulfilled all of her professional obligations.
Afaic BOTH sides of the abortion debate were premature in coming to conclusions and hurried to try and use the story to further their side of the issue.

No, you said it was a fictitious horror story.



I don't see how fictitious horror stories like the one Dr. Bernard apparently made up help the cause. All it does is give ammo to abortion opponents.

eagle2
07-18-2022, 01:41 PM
Not all pregnancy centers do that. Sadly some do spout misinformation and disinformation. Most of them , both religious and secular provide needed services : pregnancy testing , ultrasound , pre-natal care , counseling , parenting classes and provision of baby supplies. Some abortion advocates like Elizabeth Warren are having conniptions because such centers outnumber abortion clinics in Massachusetts by a 3 to 1 margin. In N.Y. it almost 2 to 1.
There are many people who oppose abortion who are agnostic or atheist. Likewise many Buddhists oppose abortion . If you LISTEN to women who have actually used these centers they overwhelmingly say that they experienced nothing but concern for them and their babies.

Brazil, like Poland and Malta , is very anti-abortion. In Ireland, abortion is now LEGAL. Please look it up before pontificating further.

Afaic there is nothing wrong with your being so pro-abortion. Nor do I have a problem with your criticizing the Catholic Church. But you take it beyond disagreement and feel free to release vitriolic attacks on both my Church and Catholics in general. Some without much factual support. If you don't like my church then don't go to mass. I think the position of the Church on abortion is far too extreme as do most American Catholics. It is based on a respect for life. All life. Not hatred for women. I stopped going to mass and supporting their charities for about 15 years not because the Church had pedophile priests but because they covered up for them. Thanks to Pope Francis I have been drifting back over the last 5 years or so. I also think the Church is wrong about birth control and gay marriage. And ordaining women and letting priests marry.

Crisis pregnancy centers provide little in terms of help with caring for babies and pregnant women, and the help comes with strings attached, such as attending Bible classes. They do not provide needed services. Their only goal is preventing women and teenagers from getting abortions, and if they have to use lies and deception to do this, they will.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/05/12/opinion/crisis-pregnancy-centers-roe.html

I have not attacked Catholics in general. I've been attacking the church and their policies.

eagle2
07-19-2022, 12:05 AM
I also detest Catholic religious nutjobs who want to impose their backward, ignorant beliefs on everyone else. I've been reading more and more cases of Catholic pharmacists, and Catholic cashiers in drug stores refusing to refill birth control prescriptions or allow customers to purchase condoms. Here's one person's experience:

https://www.tiktok.com/@abigailmartiin/video/7115511531298639147?_t=8U4QWsIGSzL&_r=1

Eric Stoner
07-19-2022, 08:14 AM
No, you said it was a fictitious horror story.

You're right. I was wrong. I went with the media flow and did not give Dr. Bernard the benefit of the doubt.

Eric Stoner
07-19-2022, 08:20 AM
Crisis pregnancy centers provide little in terms of help with caring for babies and pregnant women, and the help comes with strings attached, such as attending Bible classes. They do not provide needed services. Their only goal is preventing women and teenagers from getting abortions, and if they have to use lies and deception to do this, they will.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/05/12/opinion/crisis-pregnancy-centers-roe.html

I have not attacked Catholics in general. I've been attacking the church and their policies.

You're half right. At SOME pregnancy centers preventing abortion by any means , fair or foul , ethical or not trumps provision of services. Many do take a holistic approach and do provide necessary services. Many are religious based and are run accordingly. Most are ethically and properly run. Some are factually delinquent propaganda outlets. Do you know anyone who has been to a pregnancy center ? I do. Have you ever spoken to anyone who works at one ? I have. Several times.

There is a LOT to criticize in and about the Catholic Church.

Eric Stoner
07-19-2022, 08:44 AM
I also detest Catholic religious nutjobs who want to impose their backward, ignorant beliefs on everyone else. I've been reading more and more cases of Catholic pharmacists, and Catholic cashiers in drug stores refusing to refill birth control prescriptions or allow customers to purchase condoms. Here's one person's experience:

https://www.tiktok.com/@abigailmartiin/video/7115511531298639147?_t=8U4QWsIGSzL&_r=1

It is NOT limited to Catholics. Yesterday's N.Y. Times had a front page article about how the Fetal Heartbeat Bill in Texas is affecting how doctors and hospitals are providing care to women who have suffered a miscarriage. Including clear cases of deviation from good and accepted medical practice like failing to perform post miscarriage D & C's to remove the dead or doomed fetus ( in cases where the amniotic sac ruptures and the fetus will be dead anyway with absolutely no medical recourse ). It is also affecting pharmacists in prescribing the correct medication. The article caught John Seago , President of Texas Right to Life talking sideways and out of his ass. First he said that any confusion was the fault of the doctors and hospitals in Texas because any difficulties miscarriage patients were experiencing were "very serious situations ". Later in the article he tried substituting his judgement for that of trained doctors as to WHEN to intervene medically . On the one hand he acknowledged that some delays have resulted from the Fetal Heartbeat law but then claimed that "severe complications" could be treated immediately !!!! Duh. The whole point of good medical practice is to try and AVOID "severe complications". Sadly, the Supreme Court upheld the idiotic Texas law and this is just one unintended result.

One of several reasons why I opposed overturning Roe was because it did not just open the door to unwarranted interference with the practice of good and accepted medicine , it encouraged it . While AOC is factually mistaken as to CURRENT treatments for ectopic pregnancy , her hysterics might not be that far from the truth as to where things could possibly go. Unless and until The AMA and HHS step in and insist that women receive good and accepted medical care when their pregnancies do not go according to plan. The AMA can revoke certification from hospitals and HHS can withhold Federal funding. On top of everything else, Texas and other restrictive states could see an explosion of malpractice litigation. It will be interesting to see how far a doctor or hospital can get by saying : " We had no choice. We had to deviate from good and accepted medical practice to comply with state law."

Eric Stoner
07-19-2022, 09:01 AM
I also detest Catholic religious nutjobs who want to impose their backward, ignorant beliefs on everyone else. I've been reading more and more cases of Catholic pharmacists, and Catholic cashiers in drug stores refusing to refill birth control prescriptions or allow customers to purchase condoms. Here's one person's experience:

https://www.tiktok.com/@abigailmartiin/video/7115511531298639147?_t=8U4QWsIGSzL&_r=1

There is ZERO evidence that the Walgreen's clerk was Catholic. No doubt she is some kind of Christer interfering with somebody else's health care. It is also not clear WHERE this happened. What state ?

If you read the Times article I referenced supra, you will see that pharmacists in Texas are doing the same thing with medications that have dual use . They can be used to perform abortions and to remove dead fetal tissue from the uterus like mifepristone and misoprostol.

This kind of extremism is not limited to Catholics. It is also seen among Orthodox Jews and Muslims. Please don't leave them out of your attacks on those with sincere religious beliefs that affect their views on issues of the day like women's health care.

eagle2
07-19-2022, 10:46 AM
There is ZERO evidence that the Walgreen's clerk was Catholic. No doubt she is some kind of Christer interfering with somebody else's health care. It is also not clear WHERE this happened. What state ?


It's possible she isn't, but Catholicism is the only major religion that prohibits any form of birth control.



If you read the Times article I referenced supra, you will see that pharmacists in Texas are doing the same thing with medications that have dual use . They can be used to perform abortions and to remove dead fetal tissue from the uterus like mifepristone and misoprostol.

This kind of extremism is not limited to Catholics. It is also seen among Orthodox Jews and Muslims. Please don't leave them out of your attacks on those with sincere religious beliefs that affect their views on issues of the day like women's health care.

I'm against any person of any religion who wants to impose their religious beliefs on others. Islam and Orthodox Judaism don't prohibit contraception.

https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(20)31246-2/fulltext

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-edicts-family-planning/birth-control

Eric Stoner
07-19-2022, 11:21 AM
It's possible she isn't, but Catholicism is the only major religion that prohibits any form of birth control.



I'm against any person of any religion who wants to impose their religious beliefs on others. Islam and Orthodox Judaism don't prohibit contraception.

https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(20)31246-2/fulltext

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-edicts-family-planning/birth-control

Hmmmm. Most Christers oppose all abortions regardless of circumstances.

I agree with you and disagree with the Catholic Church about birth control. I also agree that our laws should not be based on religious belief.

I was talking about extreme religious based views about abortion, not birth control. Mainstream Islam may not oppose birth control and even permit its use but fundamentalist sects including the Wahabbis of Saudi Arabia do not permit it. Likewise, most Orthodox Jews oppose most abortions . They do support medically necessary abortions.

moneybags
07-20-2022, 09:38 AM
I also detest Catholic religious nutjobs who want to impose their backward, ignorant beliefs on everyone else. I've been reading more and more cases of Catholic pharmacists, and Catholic cashiers in drug stores refusing to refill birth control prescriptions or allow customers to purchase condoms. Here's one person's experience:

https://www.tiktok.com/@abigailmartiin/video/7115511531298639147?_t=8U4QWsIGSzL&_r=1

Yep. Boycotting Walgreens

SnuffleUffleGrass
07-20-2022, 10:48 AM
Yep. Boycotting Walgreens

Ugh. It's amazing that that big of a retailer would be going along with this.

eagle2
07-21-2022, 12:28 AM
Hmmmm. Most Christers oppose all abortions regardless of circumstances.

I agree with you and disagree with the Catholic Church about birth control. I also agree that our laws should not be based on religious belief.

I was talking about extreme religious based views about abortion, not birth control. Mainstream Islam may not oppose birth control and even permit its use but fundamentalist sects including the Wahabbis of Saudi Arabia do not permit it. Likewise, most Orthodox Jews oppose most abortions . They do support medically necessary abortions.

Saudi Arabia does allow the use of birth control.

https://www.expatwoman.com/saudi-arabia/health-fitness/everything-you-need-to-know-about-contraceptive-pill-in-saudi-arabia

It's sad that the Catholic Church is more regressive than even the Wahabbis in Saudi Arabia. Clarence Thomas wants to ban birth control as well as abortion.

eagle2
07-21-2022, 12:32 AM
Dr. Bernard is suing Indiana's AG for defamation over comments he made about her and this case.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/19/us/caitlin-bernard-indiana-abortion-doctor-lawsuit.html

Eric Stoner
07-21-2022, 08:50 AM
Saudi Arabia does allow the use of birth control.

https://www.expatwoman.com/saudi-arabia/health-fitness/everything-you-need-to-know-about-contraceptive-pill-in-saudi-arabia

It's sad that the Catholic Church is more regressive than even the Wahabbis in Saudi Arabia. Clarence Thomas wants to ban birth control as well as abortion.

I keep talking about abortion and you keep talking about birth control.

I know what you are saying about Thomas. I do not like or agree with him even though he is supposedly a nice guy. Well so was Rehnquist and some of his views made Bork look like a moderate.

Fortunately , no other Justice , not Kavanagh, not Gorsuch , not Alito not even Amy Coney Barrett has voiced any desire or interest to revisit cases like Griswold ; Loving or even Obergefell. Roberts is absolutely opposed to doing any such thing. If the Court did attempt to disturb settled law on contraception , interracial or gay marriage respectively then I doubt there will enough torches and pitchforks in this country to accommodate all those outraged by their doing so. I am trying to think of another action on their part which would so damage the legitimacy of the Court and virtually require the Congress to pass legislation limiting the Court's jurisdiction. Which it can do but has held off doing in the past. For numerous reasons.

You are entitled to your opinions BUT when you post vicious garbage like : "the Catholic Church is more regressive than even the Wahabbis in Saudi Arabia " you demonstrate your ignorance of both and your personal animus towards my church. The Catholic Church is opposed to the death penalty. The Wahabbis stone adulterers , cut off the hands of thieves and execute people for all sorts of "crimes" including blasphemy. The Catholic Church does not support terrorists. The Wahabbis do including the 9/11 hijackers. The Wahabbis oppose co-education ; letting women drive ( I think they modified that ); impose dress guidelines for women and still have arranged marriages and child brides. They have also support madrasahs in both Saudi Arabia and other muslim and non-muslim countries. There is absolutely no comparison between the two.
If you had any decency you would apologize but I am not holding my breath.

You did not make it clear but if , repeat IF, you were speaking only about abortion then you are correct in that the Saudis permit abortions in limited circumstances when there is a MEDICAL reason for performing one or in cases of rape and incest. The Catholic Church takes an absolutist position opposing ALL abortions.

Eric Stoner
07-21-2022, 08:53 AM
Dr. Bernard is suing Indiana's AG for defamation over comments he made about her and this case.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/19/us/caitlin-bernard-indiana-abortion-doctor-lawsuit.html

Good for her. I hope she wins. Rokita was way off base in what he said.

dpacrkk
07-21-2022, 09:11 AM
I keep talking about abortion and you keep talking about birth control.

You typed this about birth control:


Mainstream Islam may not oppose birth control and even permit its use but fundamentalist sects including the Wahabbis of Saudi Arabia do not permit it.

Eagle's reply about birth control was therefore applicable. You're not helping demonstrate that you aren't a demented boomer.

Also this is from "Wahhābī Islam Facing the Challenges of Modernity:"

"Birth control and contraception, due to fear of want (khishyat al-imlāq) are prohibited, since God guaranties the sustenance of His creatures. However, if birth control comes to avoid harm to the woman... or in cases in which both spouses agree that it is in their best welfare to prevent or postpone a pregnancy, then birth control is permitted."

Eric Stoner
07-21-2022, 12:14 PM
Obviously the Saudis have modified their position over the years. Sorry for not having kept up and not staying au courant on Saudi policy on family planning etc.

dpacrkk
07-21-2022, 12:29 PM
Obviously the Saudis have modified their position over the years. Sorry for not having kept up and not staying au courant on Saudi policy on family planning etc.

You could have spent less than a minute Googling and reading before typing that (which undoubtedly took you longer to compose and type). Also that aforementioned book was published in June 2010, so you're just parroting misinformation or your personal incorrect preconceived notion(s). We know, we know: "mea culpa" (again).

eagle2
07-21-2022, 04:41 PM
I keep talking about abortion and you keep talking about birth control.

I know what you are saying about Thomas. I do not like or agree with him even though he is supposedly a nice guy. Well so was Rehnquist and some of his views made Bork look like a moderate.

Fortunately , no other Justice , not Kavanagh, not Gorsuch , not Alito not even Amy Coney Barrett has voiced any desire or interest to revisit cases like Griswold ; Loving or even Obergefell. Roberts is absolutely opposed to doing any such thing. If the Court did attempt to disturb settled law on contraception , interracial or gay marriage respectively then I doubt there will enough torches and pitchforks in this country to accommodate all those outraged by their doing so. I am trying to think of another action on their part which would so damage the legitimacy of the Court and virtually require the Congress to pass legislation limiting the Court's jurisdiction. Which it can do but has held off doing in the past. For numerous reasons.


None of the conservative justices voiced any desire to revisit Roe vs. Wade, until they actually did.



You are entitled to your opinions BUT when you post vicious garbage like : "the Catholic Church is more regressive than even the Wahabbis in Saudi Arabia " you demonstrate your ignorance of both and your personal animus towards my church. The Catholic Church is opposed to the death penalty. The Wahabbis stone adulterers , cut off the hands of thieves and execute people for all sorts of "crimes" including blasphemy. The Catholic Church does not support terrorists. The Wahabbis do including the 9/11 hijackers. The Wahabbis oppose co-education ; letting women drive ( I think they modified that ); impose dress guidelines for women and still have arranged marriages and child brides. They have also support madrasahs in both Saudi Arabia and other muslim and non-muslim countries. There is absolutely no comparison between the two.
If you had any decency you would apologize but I am not holding my breath.

You did not make it clear but if , repeat IF, you were speaking only about abortion then you are correct in that the Saudis permit abortions in limited circumstances when there is a MEDICAL reason for performing one or in cases of rape and incest. The Catholic Church takes an absolutist position opposing ALL abortions.

Both the Wahabbis and Catholic Church are awful, but there are a number of issues where the Catholic Church is even worse than the Wahabbis. As mentioned in this thread, birth control and abortion. Also, divorce, clergy sexually abusing children, and preventing the spread of STDs and AIDS. Like the Wahabbis, the Catholic Church has little concern for the well being of females, nor respect for them. In Ireland, when the Catholic Church controlled the government, women had no rights. Women could not seek divorce from their husband, no matter how bad of a person he was. I once read an article on the abuse women had to put up with in Ireland, when divorce was not legal. When a woman complained to a nun about being abused by her husband, the nun told her, "that's a cross you'll have to carry." This wasn't just in Ireland, but other Catholic countries as well. In Ireland, the church enslaved "promiscuous" teenage girls. This went on until the 1970s. Imagine being so backward and evil that as recently as the 1970s, slavery was considered acceptable. When Pope John Paul met with Ireland's female president and her husband in 1999, he refused to shake her hand, and said to her husband, "Would you not prefer to be the president of Ireland instead of your wife?” Besides that, disgraced Cardinal Bernard Law also tried to intimidate her in 1998. She claims he said to her, “I’m sorry for Catholic Ireland to have you as president,” when they met.

https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/pope-john-paul-mary-mcaleese

When millions of people were dying from AIDS, the Catholic Church very adamantly opposed the use of condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS, and even lied about their effectiveness. The Church did not care how many deaths they caused. I could go on and on documenting all of the horrible things done by the Catholic Church in recent times, but my time is limited.

I'm not going to apologize for condemning an organization that has caused so much harm and suffering to so many people, especially women and children, and documenting some of the awful things they've done.

moneybags
07-22-2022, 12:40 AM
None of the conservative justices voiced any desire to revisit Roe vs. Wade, until they actually

right they lied under oath and said it was settled.

I have no problem condemning religion. I use to try to be tolerant, but seeming how they are so intolerant I no longer feel bad for throwing shade

eagle2
07-24-2022, 08:38 PM
This is what happens when the Catholic Church gets it tentacles around a government and people:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-61995250

Eric Stoner
07-25-2022, 07:30 AM
None of the conservative justices voiced any desire to revisit Roe vs. Wade, until they actually did.



Both the Wahabbis and Catholic Church are awful, but there are a number of issues where the Catholic Church is even worse than the Wahabbis. As mentioned in this thread, birth control and abortion. Also, divorce, clergy sexually abusing children, and preventing the spread of STDs and AIDS. Like the Wahabbis, the Catholic Church has little concern for the well being of females, nor respect for them. In Ireland, when the Catholic Church controlled the government, women had no rights. Women could not seek divorce from their husband, no matter how bad of a person he was. I once read an article on the abuse women had to put up with in Ireland, when divorce was not legal. When a woman complained to a nun about being abused by her husband, the nun told her, "that's a cross you'll have to carry." This wasn't just in Ireland, but other Catholic countries as well. In Ireland, the church enslaved "promiscuous" teenage girls. This went on until the 1970s. Imagine being so backward and evil that as recently as the 1970s, slavery was considered acceptable. When Pope John Paul met with Ireland's female president and her husband in 1999, he refused to shake her hand, and said to her husband, "Would you not prefer to be the president of Ireland instead of your wife?” Besides that, disgraced Cardinal Bernard Law also tried to intimidate her in 1998. She claims he said to her, “I’m sorry for Catholic Ireland to have you as president,” when they met.

https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/pope-john-paul-mary-mcaleese

When millions of people were dying from AIDS, the Catholic Church very adamantly opposed the use of condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS, and even lied about their effectiveness. The Church did not care how many deaths they caused. I could go on and on documenting all of the horrible things done by the Catholic Church in recent times, but my time is limited.

I'm not going to apologize for condemning an organization that has caused so much harm and suffering to so many people, especially women and children, and documenting some of the awful things they've done.

At the time they testified the Dobbs case was not before the Court. As I said , if they are foolish enough to try and revisit cases grounded on privacy ( Griswold and Loving with Thomas married to a white woman ! ) and equal protection ( Obergfell ) there would be such a torrent of disgust and protest that the Court will not be able to withstand it.

Divorce is really not a part of this discussion. As with several other issues the position of the Church is extreme and actually hypocritical. The wealthy can obtain annulments. The poor and middle class for the most part cannot.

We are also talking about NOW. Not how things were in the past. Ireland used to be a theocracy run of , for and by the Catholic Church. It is not now. John Paul II is DEAD. Francis is now the Pope. In fact Ireland can trace the start of its economic dynamism to when it threw off the shackles of Catholic theology dominating its government and society. Same thing for Spain and Portugal post Franco and Salazar respectively.

The Church has a lot to answer for. As I said I refused to go to mass or contribute in any way for roughly 15 years because the Church hid and covered up for pedophile priests. But Saudi Arabia has much to answer for as well. I doubt that you would prefer to live there than in any Catholic country.

I agree with most other Catholics that the Church needs reform. Francis has initiated some efforts in that direction but not enough afaic.

The church takes extreme positions on some issues. Whether they get translated into law is up to politicians . Secular law trumps religious law. Except in Saudi Arabia where they are one and the same. Ditto for Iran and Afghanistan.

Eric Stoner
07-25-2022, 07:32 AM
You could have spent less than a minute Googling and reading before typing that (which undoubtedly took you longer to compose and type). Also that aforementioned book was published in June 2010, so you're just parroting misinformation or your personal incorrect preconceived notion(s). We know, we know: "mea culpa" (again).

I have no desire to live in Saudi Arabia so the current state of their laws is of little interest to me. If you move there write if you get work. And let us know how you like the climate.

Eric Stoner
07-25-2022, 07:36 AM
This is what happens when the Catholic Church gets it tentacles around a government and people:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-61995250

Ultimately whose fault is that ? The Church or the government's ? The church does not condemn any woman for having a miscarriage. Far from it.

Why don't you try and calm down and be grateful that you live in a secular state where only 2 of 46 presidents have been Catholic and where most Christians are Protestant. And we have a First Amendment.

dpacrkk
07-25-2022, 10:12 AM
The current state of their laws is of interest to me when my preconceived notion of them can push my narratives. When it's debunked I'll claim it's of little interest to me instead of admitting I'm wrong and that one of the foundations of my argument is faulty.

FTFY.

Eric Stoner
07-25-2022, 10:51 AM
Any time I make a mistake I admit it. Unlike some people on this board who NEVER admit to being wrong.
Some Saudi policies are more liberal than I thought. So what ? I still don't want to live there. Do you ?

dpacrkk
07-25-2022, 01:15 PM
Any time I make a mistake I admit it. Unlike some people on this board who NEVER admit to being wrong.

You didn't really admit it this time. First, you tried to deflect and stated it was about a different topic (abortion instead of birth control). Then when confronted with what you actually typed, you rationalized it away.

There have been times where you admit you're wrong, but it usually takes multiple posts and you try to sweep it under the rug. It's good that you've admitted mistakes, but it's not like you've learned to reduce the root causes.



Some Saudi policies are more liberal than I thought. So what ? I still don't want to live there. Do you ?

Nope, but that was never the point.

eagle2
07-26-2022, 12:55 AM
Ultimately whose fault is that ? The Church or the government's ? The church does not condemn any woman for having a miscarriage. Far from it.

Why don't you try and calm down and be grateful that you live in a secular state where only 2 of 46 presidents have been Catholic and where most Christians are Protestant. And we have a First Amendment.

The women weren't imprisoned for having a miscarriage. They were imprisoned because the government determined that the women were responsible for killing their fetus, even though that's most likely not the case. Technically, using an abortion pill to end a pregnancy is considered a miscarriage, yet the church condemns miscarriages caused by abortion pills. I would not be surprised if we see this happening here, where women who have miscarriages are prosecuted for it, in states where abortions are illegal. The Catholic Church is behind laws outlawing abortion in many countries, including El Salvador. The church is a powerful organization, especially in countries where most people are religious Catholics. This is from 1999:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12349419/



Researcher Soledad Varela discovered that the Catholic Church in El Salvador had been actively engaged in manipulative tactics to sway an already conservative legislature into passing the extreme laws.


We don't live in a secular state. One of our parties is under the control of Christian theocrats who want to make the US a Christian theocracy. The current problems we're having now, with basic women's rights, aren't coming from a Catholic president. They're coming from Catholic judges on the Supreme Court. The entire reasoning why states are banning abortions, is because abortions are against the religious beliefs of the state governments passing these laws.

Eric Stoner
07-26-2022, 08:04 AM
The women weren't imprisoned for having a miscarriage. They were imprisoned because the government determined that the women were responsible for killing their fetus, even though that's most likely not the case. Technically, using an abortion pill to end a pregnancy is considered a miscarriage, yet the church condemns miscarriages caused by abortion pills. I would not be surprised if we see this happening here, where women who have miscarriages are prosecuted for it, in states where abortions are illegal. The Catholic Church is behind laws outlawing abortion in many countries, including El Salvador. The church is a powerful organization, especially in countries where most people are religious Catholics. This is from 1999:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12349419/



We don't live in a secular state. One of our parties is under the control of Christian theocrats who want to make the US a Christian theocracy. The current problems we're having now, with basic women's rights, aren't coming from a Catholic president. They're coming from Catholic judges on the Supreme Court. The entire reasoning why states are banning abortions, is because abortions are against the religious beliefs of the state governments passing these laws.

Which is one reason why I have criticized the Dobbs decision and have said that reversing Roe opened a Pandora's Box and that we will have more problems rather than less. Dobbs settled NOTHING ! In the abstract perhaps, but not as a practical matter.

We are not supposed to discuss politics but since you opened the door I AGREE with you that Christers have too much influence in one of our political parties just as socialists and greenies have too much influence in the other one.

I am sad to say that ( like the Times article I cited about malpractice in Texas in treating miscarriage ) we will see increasing numbers of women bearing the brunt of failure to find a sensible compromise. It ought to be kept in mind that it was Planned Parenthood who chose not to leave bad enough alone and started the Dobbs litigation. Having won in District Court and the Circuit Court of Appeals , they then fought Mississippi's appeal in the Supreme Court KNOWING there were at least 5 votes to reverse Roe. Too many people on both sides of the abortion issue want everything their own way. From any abortion at any time for any reason vs. an absolute ban. Fortunately the overwhelming majority of Americans see it as a nuanced issue and reject absolutism and fanaticism.

For some reason you find it necessary to try and blame the Catholic Church as though this is all their fault. My guess it is because Alito, Thomas, Kavanagh, Barrett and Roberts are all Catholic. Not sure about Gorsuch but I THINK he is Catholic. Of our larger states California has a lot of Catholics as do N.Y. and N.J. So does Illinois. All have liberal abortion laws. For now , so does Florida. Ohio is mostly Protestant. The problem is the majority fundamentalist Christians who expect women to fulfill their Biblical roles and behave accordingly. Many of us recoil and rebel against such a mindset . Properly afaic. And some of it exists in Catholicism.

In any event , thanks to Dobbs we are now going to see political struggles in at least half of our states coupled with a lot of litigation. My humble suggestion is that compromise will be more effective than extremism. And by "extremism " I include anti-Catholic bigotry. Both against the Church and individual Catholics. A lot of non-Catholics like and admire Pope Francis so going after him would not be a good idea .

And sadly as these legislative and judicial battles play out some women will be inconvenienced, burdened and even endangered by changes in their state's abortion laws.

Yes, we do live in a secular state. An imperfect one perhaps but there is still no religious test for public office nor an established religion. Some legislators are influenced , inspired and even driven by their religious beliefs to take various positions. It has ALWAYS been that way since this country's founding. Your solution to that is what ? Impose a test to try and exclude "true believers" from public office ? Ban religion ? I know you would love to shut down the Catholic Church but you can't just pick them out for special treatment. Please don't try to deny it. You have made your hatred of Catholics , their beliefs and their church very clear. It's fine afaic. You are entitled to your opinions and can be as vicious as you please.

kamiliam
07-26-2022, 10:23 AM
I don’t really know how we got stuck that this is a catholic thing. I actually know plenty of liberal Catholics. They all want abortion safe, legal and rare. Not my position but a fairly mainstream one.

What we are talking about are religious fundamentalists. Theocrats, they are the fringe elements of all religions and they are allowed to be the loudest voices on the right despite their own demographics working against that. Ben Shapiro is a fundamentalist Jew who is spouting concepts about abortion(and many other topics) that does not come from modern Judaism. These types wish to rule from the minority. They are fascists. They are building a collation of theocrats not Catholics.

Eric Stoner
07-26-2022, 12:04 PM
I don’t really know how we got stuck that this is a catholic thing. I actually know plenty of liberal Catholics. They all want abortion safe, legal and rare. Not my position but a fairly mainstream one.

What we are talking about are religious fundamentalists. Theocrats, they are the fringe elements of all religions and they are allowed to be the loudest voices on the right despite their own demographics working against that. Ben Shapiro is a fundamentalist Jew who is spouting concepts about abortion(and many other topics) that does not come from modern Judaism. These types wish to rule from the minority. They are fascists. They are building a collation of theocrats not Catholics.

Talk to Eagle, not me. Like you , I know lots of Catholics who were outraged by some behavior of our church and its leadership. Like me , they do not share the absolutist positions of the Church on many issues.

Ben Shapiro is a very learned , very bright, very articulate extremist. There are plenty of extremists on the left. For every woman victimized by changes in the abortion laws right wing zealots can point to horrible cases like the baby born with hydro encephalopathy and spina bifida in Indiana that was starved to death in a HOSPITAL in Indiana a number of years ago. Or what ex-Governor Northam said along similar lines.

eagle2
07-26-2022, 01:48 PM
I am sad to say that ( like the Times article I cited about malpractice in Texas in treating miscarriage ) we will see increasing numbers of women bearing the brunt of failure to find a sensible compromise. It ought to be kept in mind that it was Planned Parenthood who chose not to leave bad enough alone and started the Dobbs litigation. Having won in District Court and the Circuit Court of Appeals , they then fought Mississippi's appeal in the Supreme Court KNOWING there were at least 5 votes to reverse Roe. Too many people on both sides of the abortion issue want everything their own way. From any abortion at any time for any reason vs. an absolute ban. Fortunately the overwhelming majority of Americans see it as a nuanced issue and reject absolutism and fanaticism.


You're dishonestly misrepresenting one side. Nobody is advocating any abortion at any time.



For some reason you find it necessary to try and blame the Catholic Church as though this is all their fault. My guess it is because Alito, Thomas, Kavanagh, Barrett and Roberts are all Catholic. Not sure about Gorsuch but I THINK he is Catholic. Of our larger states California has a lot of Catholics as do N.Y. and N.J. So does Illinois. All have liberal abortion laws. For now , so does Florida. Ohio is mostly Protestant. The problem is the majority fundamentalist Christians who expect women to fulfill their Biblical roles and behave accordingly. Many of us recoil and rebel against such a mindset . Properly afaic. And some of it exists in Catholicism.


You're being dishonest again. I did not say it is all the Catholic Church's fault, but the Catholic Church has been one of the most outspoken opponents of abortion, and the Catholic Church has the most extreme views. There are also conservative protestant churches opposed to abortion, but most support allowing exception when the woman's life is in danger. The Catholic Church does not. Besides that, the Catholic Church is the only church opposed to all forms of contraception, including the use of condoms to prevent the transmission of AIDS and other STDs.



In any event , thanks to Dobbs we are now going to see political struggles in at least half of our states coupled with a lot of litigation. My humble suggestion is that compromise will be more effective than extremism. And by "extremism " I include anti-Catholic bigotry. Both against the Church and individual Catholics. A lot of non-Catholics like and admire Pope Francis so going after him would not be a good idea .


You're dishonestly twisting condemnation of the Catholic Church into condemnation of all Catholics. I have never condemned all Catholics.



And sadly as these legislative and judicial battles play out some women will be inconvenienced, burdened and even endangered by changes in their state's abortion laws.

Yes, we do live in a secular state. An imperfect one perhaps but there is still no religious test for public office nor an established religion. Some legislators are influenced , inspired and even driven by their religious beliefs to take various positions. It has ALWAYS been that way since this country's founding. Your solution to that is what ? Impose a test to try and exclude "true believers" from public office ? Ban religion ? I know you would love to shut down the Catholic Church but you can't just pick them out for special treatment. Please don't try to deny it. You have made your hatred of Catholics , their beliefs and their church very clear. It's fine afaic. You are entitled to your opinions and can be as vicious as you please.

No, we can enforce the First Amendment.

You're outright lying when you accuse me of hatred towards all Catholics. Not once have I condemned all Catholics, and by any standard, the Catholic Church is an evil organization. I can think of few things more evil than protecting people who sexually abuse children.

eagle2
07-26-2022, 01:51 PM
I don’t really know how we got stuck that this is a catholic thing. I actually know plenty of liberal Catholics. They all want abortion safe, legal and rare. Not my position but a fairly mainstream one.

What we are talking about are religious fundamentalists. Theocrats, they are the fringe elements of all religions and they are allowed to be the loudest voices on the right despite their own demographics working against that. Ben Shapiro is a fundamentalist Jew who is spouting concepts about abortion(and many other topics) that does not come from modern Judaism. These types wish to rule from the minority. They are fascists. They are building a collation of theocrats not Catholics.

Eric has dishonestly distorted my condemnation of the Catholic Church into condemning all Catholics, which I have not done. I agree that it's not just the Catholic Church, but other religious extremists as well. I agree that they're fascists.

eagle2
07-26-2022, 02:08 PM
Ben Shapiro is a very learned , very bright, very articulate extremist. There are plenty of extremists on the left. For every woman victimized by changes in the abortion laws right wing zealots can point to horrible cases like the baby born with hydro encephalopathy and spina bifida in Indiana that was starved to death in a HOSPITAL in Indiana a number of years ago. Or what ex-Governor Northam said along similar lines.

No, Ben Shapiro is a very stupid, callous right-wing extremist.

Again, you're dishonestly misrepresenting the abortion rights side. Nobody is advocating allowing doctors or parents to have babies killed after they're born. You're equating an isolated case from 40 years ago to policies that will affect millions of women, teenagers and even young girls, like the one whom this thread is about. You're also misrepresenting Governor Northam's statement, that many on the right took out of context. He was referring to babies born with severe deformities, where there was no chance of saving them.

DonaDiabla
07-26-2022, 02:30 PM
Anyways, this thread isn't about crying over the Catholic Church or any other religious organizations. This is about how people want to gloss over pedophilia and rape.This is about how the Supreme court almost put into motion the abomination of a 10 year old giving birth to her rapist baby. This is also about how many adults are quick not to be believe abused children.
Going so far as to accuse the doctor who performed the abortion of lying. All because some people didn't want to believe some men can raped little girls and impregnate them. What is so hard about admitting the world has an major problem when it comes to pedophilia? What is hard about admitting that children can be raped? It has been happening for centuries and people still want to foster disbelief.These people revictimized this little girl with their disbelief and their overall nasty attitude towards the situation. Or pretending that giving birth at 10 is some divine blessing. That's the true issues with this case.

Eric Stoner
07-27-2022, 07:40 AM
You're dishonestly misrepresenting one side. Nobody is advocating any abortion at any time.



You're being dishonest again. I did not say it is all the Catholic Church's fault, but the Catholic Church has been one of the most outspoken opponents of abortion, and the Catholic Church has the most extreme views. There are also conservative protestant churches opposed to abortion, but most support allowing exception when the woman's life is in danger. The Catholic Church does not. Besides that, the Catholic Church is the only church opposed to all forms of contraception, including the use of condoms to prevent the transmission of AIDS and other STDs.



You're dishonestly twisting condemnation of the Catholic Church into condemnation of all Catholics. I have never condemned all Catholics.



No, we can enforce the First Amendment.

You're outright lying when you accuse me of hatred towards all Catholics. Not once have I condemned all Catholics, and by any standard, the Catholic Church is an evil organization. I can think of few things more evil than protecting people who sexually abuse children.

I am sorry but Nancy Pelosi made it very clear that she supports abortion rights past the point of birth. So did Ralph Northam and many other Democrats in Congress and in various state governments. It may not be your position but it is what they have said they support. Many Planned Parenthood people also support women's rights to abort ; even after birth. Yes, yes, I know that most of those cases involve lifesaving measures or fetuses that will die anyway and other extremes. But not all. Some, repeat SOME, of these extreme cases have ratified a supposed right to a "perfect" baby. Both of the most recent Baby Doe cases involved children with Down's syndrome. In the Indiana case from 1982 the baby also had hydro encephalopathy and spina bifida. The encephalopathy could have been treated with a shunt to drain the fluid and neither spina bifida nor Down's is necessarily a death sentence.

Please don't post that the "Catholic Church is an evil organization " and then try to say that you do not have hatred in your heart. I was born and raised Catholic and I am the first to say that the Church is a fundamentally flawed institution. Inter alia it is a male dominated gerontocracy imposing canon law that goes back to the Middle Ages. It is guilty of much wrongdoing. Right now the Pope is on an apology tour of Canada to express remorse and regret for the Church's treatment of Native Canadians. How many times do I have to post that I joined many Catholics in boycotting mass over the Church's outrageous mishandling of pedophile priests and failure to protect the victims ?

That said you have made it very clear that you hate devout Catholics who apply Church teaching to their lives and if in politics to public policy. If you don't like the Church don't join. Don't get baptized. Don't go to mass. No one is trying to convert you so take a deep breath and try to relax lol.

Eric Stoner
07-27-2022, 07:53 AM
No, Ben Shapiro is a very stupid, callous right-wing extremist.

Again, you're dishonestly misrepresenting the abortion rights side. Nobody is advocating allowing doctors or parents to have babies killed after they're born. You're equating an isolated case from 40 years ago to policies that will affect millions of women, teenagers and even young girls, like the one whom this thread is about. You're also misrepresenting Governor Northam's statement, that many on the right took out of context. He was referring to babies born with severe deformities, where there was no chance of saving them.

What did Ben Shapiro ever do to you ? If he's stupid how did he graduate from Harvard Law School ? Personally I do not care for him. While he has retracted or at least revised some of his wackier ideas he is still totally opposed to abortion except as a life saving measure. He IS a homophobe. He thinks ALL transgender people are mentally ill. He is viciously biased against Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular. He no longer supports ethnic cleansing of Israel and the West Bank because it would be "impractical". On the other hand he does not like Trump and opposed him in 2016. He has said that Trump lost in 2020. Many of his ideas are grounded in the Constitution and common sense. He certainly leans far right although he claims to be a libertarian. I hate many of his ideas without hating him.

I think you are deliberately misunderstanding me to try and advance your argument or just score rhetorical points. The Baby Doe cases are just the ones that resulted in litigation. There are thousands of other such cases in this country and around the world where abortion is legal. In both Baby Doe cases there were people willing to adopt those babies who were prevented from doing so. Both had treatable conditions. In neither case was it clear that they would die anyway. In both cases the Courts effectively ratified a right or at least an expectation of entitlement to a "perfect baby". For every Baby Doe there were parents who took their baby home and accepted the challenge and burden of raising a disabled child. David Will being a well known and publicized example thanks to the writings of his father George.

The point is that extreme cases of parents trying to have "perfect children " and using abortion to try and weed out unwanted children on apparently selfish grounds plays directly into the hands of anti-abortion extremists.

Eric Stoner
07-27-2022, 08:14 AM
Anyways, this thread isn't about crying over the Catholic Church or any other religious organizations. This is about how people want to gloss over pedophilia and rape.This is about how the Supreme court almost put into motion the abomination of a 10 year old giving birth to her rapist baby. This is also about how many adults are quick not to be believe abused children.
Going so far as to accuse the doctor who performed the abortion of lying. All because some people didn't want to believe some men can raped little girls and impregnate them. What is so hard about admitting the world has an major problem when it comes to pedophilia? What is hard about admitting that children can be raped? It has been happening for centuries and people still want to foster disbelief. These people revictimized this little girl with their disbelief and their overall nasty attitude towards the situation. Or pretending that giving birth at 10 is some divine blessing. That's the true issues with this case.

The Supreme Court left it to the states to deal with these situations. Despite the lies of its Attorney General, Ohio had a six week cut off even in cases of rape or incest. Fortunately the child was taken to Indiana where Dr. Bernard was able to perform a non-invasive abortion using medication.

The doubts expressed at the time were directed ( IN ERROR ) at Dr. Bernard and her credibility. Not afaik at the victim. Fortunately it soon became clear that she was telling the truth and that she did not do anything wrong. The Attorney General of Indiana may very well have defamed Dr. Bernard and I think she has a meritorious case against him and his big mouth. I for one wish her every success.

Sadly , some anti-abortion extremists shut down their brains and turned off their compassion and seriously advocated forcing a 10 year old to give birth to "avoid a greater harm" or to "not have two victims " ????!!!! Afaic such ideas are well beyond bizarre and are really quite disgusting.

While the misinformation and disinformation was swirling around this case , Dr. Bernard was caught between a rock and a hard place. For a time. She had to navigate laws concerning patient confidentiality and mandatory reporting of sexual assault on a minor and was limited in what she could say about the case. Despite some erratic and erroneous reporting , some of it politically slanted both for and against her and abortion, it turns out she met all of her legal obligations and did it well.