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Gynger
02-04-2004, 02:12 PM
I used to hate men.. but I made bad choices, so that would probably explain why. I used to compare my b/f's to my father, who wasnt' the best of fathers around (but thank you Dad for supplying the seed to bring me here!), then I met a wonderful man and ended up marrying him and I have realized that not all men are unloyal, dishonest or untruthful.

However, there are times when I despise (sp?) men! Here are just a few times all at work of course

1. Hey baby, wanna f*ck--how much you charge?
2. I'll give you a grand if you'll come home with me
3. If I bring in my girlfriend, will you f*ck her and can I watch?

I mean really, these are a just a couple of things I've been asked. I know, I know, it comes with the territory, but still, I am someone's mother, wife and daughter and I have to remind some customers of that fact. I get really irritated with men who have no respect for women and who have nothing better to do than think that just because we dance we are whores too. We are all smart and beautiful and just because we choose to do this for a living, does not constitute being whores. Again, these are the times when I hate men.

Another time when I hate men, is when I see a beautiful girl who is in a horrible situation and can't get her head together to leave a man who mistreats her. She can't get her head together because he's brainwashed her into believing that she can't live without him and that she's nothing without him. Men like this have no place on this earth as far as I'm concerned.

But, for every scum bag dirt bag sh*t head man like I've mentioned above, there are several who were raised right and are decent people and to those men, I applaud you because you keep us remembering that there are good men out there, and those who need to find them need to keep looking!

My hubby is a wonderful father, my best friend and I thank God every day that he and I found eachother!

Gynger

Topaz
02-04-2004, 04:43 PM
...so are you saying that your life's experience has never influenced you?...is that what you're saying dreamer...if so then you're better than most people...

and i don't think that my experiences are insignificant...as you do...i've never experienced being treated right by a man (romanticly speaking)...so how the fuck do you expect me to drop the only experience i've ever known and move on....tried it...quite a few times...still have the scars....

i'm doing what i feel is necessary for me...if you think it's stupid...and are having a problem with it (why else would you pick apart my post....again)....that's your fucking issue...not mine...

go ahead and pick this one apart too...i know you won't be able to pass the opportunity up...


(and people wonder why i think men are assholes...)

fille
02-05-2004, 01:26 AM
I DO HATE HOW MEN ARE RAISED TO ACT.

After being raped several times by men I did not want to "associate" with; being hit by men who claimed to love me; being harrassed, groped, and threatened by men on the street; being told that women are genetically not as sexual or sexually diversified as men (as if they would know); being told I wouldn't be capable of understanding complex things because I'm a girl: being told girls are too emotional contrasted with how men claim not to be able to control their sexual emotions (ha ha); not being able to get as good a paying job as men (if your response is stripping - when men appreciate their ample, wonderful opportunities to shake their asses for some piggy men I'll hear it); never seeing my kind as president or even half of Congress; and not to mention the 1 in 3 women who are raped by men (this does not include the equally abundant attempted rapes).

If you try to claim this represents the behavior of few men, I laugh at your naivete.

The bulk of men are truly raised to believe they are better than women and deserve more than women. They act accordingly.

Those who differ - perhaps you are a gem, or you know by now how to make women shut up and stop comlaining so you can feel good about having your kind of fun.

If women were responsible for torturing male genitals on the scale that men do this to women, little girls and boys - YOU WOULD HAVE US ALL PUT AWAY...

And besides, the guys who claim to be nice and might be, they benefit from girls being afraid enough of other men that we snuggle up and feel "safe" with you. Tell me you never heard that.

erotictonic
02-05-2004, 11:58 AM
Let's face it... no matter what any man has to say, men are disgusting and ugly. They do nothing to look good. Yet they expect us all to be Barbies. They have sex anytime with anyone, yet they expect us to be virgins. I have no desire to impress men. I think they are the most repulsive creatures on the planet. I've tried it all, from one-night stands to 9 yr. relationships. Men suck in bed. When we act like them and have alot of sexual relationships, then we are labeled "whores". Men are born whores.

Dreamer
02-05-2004, 12:46 PM
...so are you saying that your life's experience has never influenced you?...is that what you're saying dreamer...if so then you're better than most people...


Heck no! I am deeply influenced by my parents, especially my Dad. I've been influenced by my school and my peers. How it affected me was that it made me stronger. I've learned not to listen to people who did not have my best interest in mind. I've discovered that it is not others that determine your happiness but you alone. Am I better than others? No, anyone can become like me if they put their minds to it.



and i don't think that my experiences are insignificant...as you do...i've never experienced being treated right by a man (romanticly speaking)...so how the fuck do you expect me to drop the only experience i've ever known and move on....tried it...quite a few times...still have the scars....


What I'm trying to say is that you have to get the big picture. You can't look at a small sample and make macro decisions about the whole system.
Topaz, the first five gf's I had cheated on me. If I'd stopped there that would be my final analysis of women. The reason you feel the way you do is that you keep clinging to your past experiences, yes that's past. That's where they belong , in the past. Quit bringing them into the present. You have to see past the stereotypes. Just as there are stereotypes about strippers so are there those about men, women, body builders, virtually any group you can think of.
Topaz, do you mean to tell me that you have never seen a heterosexual couple that has got along? Well I know at least one couple that did. My Mom and my Dad. If they can find each other then surely I can find someone among the 3 billion perspectives that will treat me well. And you know ,I think I have but the journey there was long , gruelling , and lined with tears.



i'm doing what i feel is necessary for me...if you think it's stupid...and are having a problem with it (why else would you pick apart my post....again)....that's your fucking issue...not mine...


Everyone is doing what they think is necessary for themselves. That's called survival instinct. All I'm saying is that maybe we should examine what we're doing and analyze is this really working? Does this actually produce the results I want? Why did or didn't it?
I picked your post because i was interested in it and so far you're still responding. You're right , it is my issue. ;D



go ahead and pick this one apart too...i know you won't be able to pass the opportunity up...


Thanks for the endorsement. :-*

Dreamer
02-05-2004, 01:34 PM
I DO HATE HOW MEN ARE RAISED TO ACT.


You have just as much opportunity to change that as I have.



After being raped several times by men I did not want to "associate" with; being hit by men who claimed to love me; being harrassed, groped, and threatened by men on the street; being told that women are genetically not as sexual or sexually diversified as men (as if they would know); being told I wouldn't be capable of understanding complex things because I'm a girl: being told girls are too emotional contrasted with how men claim not to be able to control their sexual emotions (ha ha); not being able to get as good a paying job as men (if your response is stripping - when men appreciate their ample, wonderful opportunities to shake their asses for some piggy men I'll hear it); never seeing my kind as president or even half of Congress; and not to mention the 1 in 3 women who are raped by men (this does not include the equally abundant attempted rapes).


Kitty , when you were raped or groped or any of those abuses, if you reported them, who investigated, apprehended, arrested, prosecuted, incarcerated the culprits? My guess is that it was done by other men. The truth is, that to every criminal man there is at least ten good ones. Why is it that we ONLY know men for their bad deeds but not for any good deeds?
Are you disappointed because society can't protect you against all criminal elements? Gee, I sure wish that I had a bodyguard to protect me 24/7. If a foreign invader attacked this country, would all the women rise up ,push aside the men and protect it?
I've had my share of insults, being told what to do to be a man but as I stated before, I only accept those that have my best interest in mind.
As I said before, who do you think abuses more? Do more elderly attack the teenaged or do more teenaged attack the elderly? The stronger will always prey on the weaker. Is that a surprise to you? Although the agressor does display disrespect for their victim the chief reason they attack is because they view you as the weaker. This applies EQUALLY to the men as it does the women. It doen't necessarily mean that society has a grudge against the senior citizens.
I'll disagree that women earn comparably less than men at the same occupations.



If you try to claim this represents the behavior of few men, I laugh at your naivete.


As I said before ,I believe they are the minority of society. Just as I believe a minority of women are bad.



The bulk of men are truly raised to believe they are better than women and deserve more than women. They act accordingly.


Gosh damn, tell me how you know what men are taught to believe? Do you think that we have weekly meetings together where we decide what our current policy towards women should be? You know as well as I know how anybody is taught what to believe and you have just as much opportunity to interject your say as I do.



Those who differ - perhaps you are a gem, or you know by now how to make women shut up and stop comlaining so you can feel good about having your kind of fun.


I don't make any woman shut up. They do that on their own accord. They're free to attack me whenever they want. What they usually find is that they can't break my spirit so they usually desist. Yes, I actually have fun at it.



If women were responsible for torturing male genitals on the scale that men do this to women, little girls and boys - YOU WOULD HAVE US ALL PUT AWAY...


Kitty, if men actually wanted to do that theybwould have done it already! The thing you have a hard time to believing is that THEY DON'T WANT TO DO IT!



And besides, the guys who claim to be nice and might be, they benefit from girls being afraid enough of other men that we snuggle up and feel "safe" with you. Tell me you never heard that.


Kitty, everyone of my former gf's said they were nice. Everyone said they loved me and would be true to me.
That's the big dilema of life. It requires us to be vulnerable to discover the true sincerity or lack of those that promise to be good to us. We ALL go through that. ;D

erotictonic
02-05-2004, 02:05 PM
Dreamer you are in fantasyland. All men are alike.

polecat
02-05-2004, 02:32 PM
I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with kitty and tonic on this one.. (sounds like something I'd order at a bar. heh).

Women have come a LONG ways in the last 50 years from a societal role, but they have much further to go. USA has no real culture of it's own, so we've had to borrow the mish-mashed traditions and cultures of other countries that people bring in with them. The majority of those cultures and societies only share a common interest in women in a more servantile role or otherwise 2nd class citizens (eastern philosophy, muslim country philosophy, marital "contract" style relationships in Europe, etc.etc.). Where women are today in USA, even though it's nowhere near where it should be- is near blasphemous by MANY other culture's standards. They've only been able to achieve what they have due to a missing and broken majority, along with generation fade from traditions.

The more independent and empowered women become, the more harsh will be the recoil to regain control.

Anyone that has any experience with sex workers or the sex industry will see this in an amplified form. This is why the nature itself becomes heightened by exposure to such.

I also disagree with Dreamer that a single person can't make a difference or as individuals we are powerless to impact change. If one chooses to live their life with decency, compassion and a sense of equality.. lead by example, so to speak.. versus dictating or value imposing, the nature is infectious. By the same token that a few abusive, obnoxious losers can have a longterm impact, the reverse is true also... and I'm eternally grateful for those I've come in exposure with that have this nature.

Interesting aside- did anyone else notice the current buzz of the superbowl is focused mainly around Janet Jackson? If she reached out to rip a piece of pants off to expose his penis, it still would have been on her, in my opinion.

raevan
02-05-2004, 02:59 PM
People are like mirrors, they usually reflect back that which they recieve.
If a man treats the Dancers like crap all the time, then what they recieve back will seem like hate. After a dancer is treated as if she were scum of the earth night after night, her reflection back becomes clouded and not clear to the men. Does she hate men perhaps,some do, some don't.

A dancer has to become somewhat hardened to the unwanted advances,
she is there to entertain. Treat each Woman as a Goddess and they just might become one.

Jay Zeno
02-05-2004, 04:27 PM
I understand. It's not really a dialogue. Kinda more of a rant.

You can call me gross and disgusting if that's how you want to view me. You can call me anything you want. I'll stick with the descriptions, good and bad, of the people - all the people - who actually know me.

I've tried to debate with racists, with misogynists, with religious fundamentalists, with ethnicists, with anyone around me who wants to view their fellow humans in an all-encompassing, hateful, one-tone light. I have accomplished nothing in those arguments. Perhaps a danger has been that I might take on some of their views and start treating the people around me badly.

I'd rather not do that. I'll retire to the reality that you might not believe even exists.

Peace of mind to you all.

erotictonic
02-05-2004, 04:39 PM
Polecat that was well said. Men are slowly losing that control as women are more able to take care of themselves. More women are choosing to leave as opposed to putting up with abuse. The thing I hate most is the double standard.

JimLovesJazz
02-06-2004, 08:29 PM
I can understand why many women dislike men. I have seen grossly abusive and unjust treatment of women and children around the world and these unjustices are committed almost exclusivly by men.

I do hope all the ladies here who have been mistreated will have the experience of having a man show care and respect for you so that you can see that we are not all bad.

on another note concerning disrespect and abusiveness ; this quote below explains so much about Dreamer and why he behaves the way he does on this site. He seems to have never or rarely fought the injustices in his past and so now he argues whenever possible on the Internet. A form of therapy perhaps ?






In high school I was the smallest person in my graduating class! I was totally alienated from fellow classmates because I did not have the same interests- ie football, baseball, basketball. I was told I was homely. I never went to a school prom. Most tauntings I received to get into a physical fight, mostly in junior high, I got out of by simply refusing to fight. No , my childhood wasn't the happiest.

erotictonic
02-06-2004, 10:28 PM
I have never been loved by a man. Because I was extremely good-natured and therefore naive, I've always had men use me and take advantage of my trust. Not anymore. And I am not ugly. I was adorable, sweet, and trusting. Now I am angry, fearful, and hard. Another one bites the dust.

Madcap
02-06-2004, 10:37 PM
Sorry to hear that erotic.

BUT...

I'm not going to be painted with a broad brush. I most certainly do NOT consider sexually active women to be "whores" (Incidentally, I hear women attacking each other on that very point all the time. I honestly don't think this is one you can pin on us men, women do it ten times as much as men do), I most certainly do NOT consider myself god's gift to the fairer sex, I most certainly DO keep myself clean (Though I do see your point there, a lot of men really are disgusting), I most certainly do NOT see women as being inferior. I have my faults, some glaringly obvious, but I do not hide them as that would be unjust to everyone i know including myself. I'm me, warts and all.

You and Topaz have every right to feel the way you do, that isn't at issue here. Dislike men all you want. I just won't let myself be pigeonholed, and frankly I think i'm a good guy, but don't they all? At any rate, i hope you find happieness in whatever form you see fit. I am glad to hear that you won't let yourself be a victim anymore, that's always a good thing.

Lexi
02-06-2004, 11:25 PM
I dont hate all men, just the ones who try and be nasty. I hate when they cant take NO for an answer. THOSE are the ones I hate.

Madcap
02-06-2004, 11:36 PM
No? What is this "No" you speak of???




j/k

erotictonic
02-06-2004, 11:47 PM
I loved this person with all my heart. I trusted him to be true. I am not perfect, and I didn't expect him to be. That's a good thing, because he was blaringly imperfect. I figured, with his job, that he had cheated. But d***, I didn't know it would be with the whole f****** town. It's amazing that girls just don't give a flying f*** if he has a SO. On top of that, he really rubbed it in. Taking me to his gf's birthday party, taking me to the bar she ran and watching her look thru peepholes in the bathroom at me (that's really classy, by the way), they made jokes about me, etc. He always made a joke about me or flirted with some girl in front of his friends just to prove he could. Isn't that classy? I'll bet that classy b**** is making jokes now that he's choking her. Then when we broke up, after he had practically beat me to death, fed me drugs in my food, cheated on me, etc., he tells me that I am the f****** bad guy. And proceeds to throw up every d*** negative thing I have ever done in my face. Then he goes over every body part I have and tells me what's wrong with it. Then he and his scum of the earth loser friends go all around town and spread rumors about me so that i can't even go to the convenience store with out being harrassed. And you think I like men?

Madcap
02-06-2004, 11:54 PM
You don't have to like men. It's not a requirement. But you shpuldn't be bitter to 50% of the planet earth's population because some guys acted like assholes. I say "shouldn't" because that's how I feel and for no other reason.

Again, I hope you find happiness.

NikkiD
02-07-2004, 12:40 AM
I believe that it's the first time they get hit with the suggestion that they should give sexual favors for $10.

Too true!! Or possibly with the offer of performing sexual acts for nothing in a sleazy motel, but could we please, please not tell anyone, his wife may find out.

Madcap
02-07-2004, 12:47 AM
=1;threadid=398;start=msg6469#msg6469 date=1042413306]
I believe that it's the first time they get hit with the suggestion that they should give sexual favors for $10.



Point taken.

NinaDaisy
02-07-2004, 03:45 AM
...but...the MAJORITY of men ARE assholes though...

I totally buy this, especially since the MAJORITY of people ARE assholes. It only takes 5 minutes driving in traffic to discover this fact. Large public gatherings like fairs, exhibits and conventions strengthen this as well. You're surrounded by ninnies. Get used to it LOL.

I call it the 10% rule. Of ALL things, only 10% are exceptional. This goes for material objects as well as people. Nature loves a bell curve and most people are natures gift to that bell curve.



Amen to that, all ya gotta do is look around.

I'm of the belief that assholes come in all genders, religions, races and creeds. ::)

Madcap
02-07-2004, 11:15 AM
One entry found for bigot.


Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
- big·ot·ed /-g&-t&d/ adjective
- big·ot·ed·ly adverb

Dreamer
02-07-2004, 11:34 AM
Jim, I thought you blocked me? At least that was the case the last time you PM'd me.
Jim, after quoting me, why did you JUST say that I never had any injustices to overcome?
What I realized about you Jim is that you do not recognize ANY mans' rights. You refuse to grant a man (except yourself) the right to be heard, the right to a trial, the right to representation in court. You refuse to grant the slightest bit of human dignity to men. And you work for a human rights organization. You're a joke!
The promise I made for April, it's still on. Better go find your evidence.
Erotic, why the heck did you stay with this man for so long? It doesn't make sense for a pidgeon to befriend a hawk. It's ridiculous to try to change someone who refuses to change.
Remember what I was telling Topaz about the 1/1,000,000,000,000 of the world that we constuct our mental model from? What if someone gave you a single cell from an undislosed creature (say it was from an aardvark but they didn't tell you). I think it takes about a billion cells to make an aardvark. Well anyway, this person asks you what animal this cell came from , what does it look like, what are it's habits, what does it eat, etc.
What could you tell about the creature from that single cell? If you were a genius you could probably examine the DNA structure and come up with a somewhat accurate idea what the full creature looked like but if you were a genius you would know the task was futile anyway.
Erotic, I'm not saying you are wrong for hating men. What I'm saying is that you have not examined enough subjects to draw a reasonable conclusion. If you knew even half that amount, a billion and a half, then I would take your statement more seriously.

Madcap
02-07-2004, 11:50 AM
I like how you put words in my mouth....



There's only one way to be a bigot, and that's to fit the definition of the word. That's why we have a thing called language.

Are you, or are you not, a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices?

Madcap
02-07-2004, 12:04 PM
A Duck is a Duck. It's not a Chicken, it's a Duck.

If it walks like one and quacks like one, well, you get the picture.

Madcap
02-07-2004, 12:31 PM
Nice sidestep. I'll take your refusal to answer, as my answer. Sorry, but i'm not going to baby you because you have issues.

Juliette_deSade
02-07-2004, 01:05 PM
LOVER IS ML

Madcap
02-07-2004, 01:08 PM
Wow, Topaz deleted everything she had posted. I'll cry later.

Juliette_deSade
02-07-2004, 01:15 PM
"Boys Lie", ""Boy's cheat."
-T-shirts in Hot Topic

It would appear as though dancers don't hate men any more than other women. Many many women have contempt for men. And why wouldn't they? Men are physically stronger than women. Women make about 78 cents to a man's dollar. People abuse their power all the time. Nobody likes that.

JimLovesJazz
02-07-2004, 01:39 PM
I don't think is right for people to be telling these ladies that they shouldn't feel the way they do. They feel that way for a reason, it's called life experiences. I just hope that life in the future will bring them diffent experiences to draw from

Topaz, it does not make you a bigot- bigots hate without any logical reason. My hope is that a man will someday treat you ( and others who feel the way you do) as you deserve and that is with care, concern and respect .

and now onto the B.S posted directly to me:


Jim, after quoting me, why did you JUST say that I never had any injustices to overcome?
What I realized about you Jim is that you do not recognize ANY mans' rights. You refuse to grant a man (except yourself) the right to be heard, the right to a trial, the right to representation in court. You refuse to grant the slightest bit of human dignity to men. And you work for a human rights organization. You're a joke!
The promise I made for April, it's still on. Better go find your evidence.



1- that is not what I wrote. You made that up.

here is the direct quote of what I wrote:


explains so much about Dreamer and why he behaves the way he does on this site. He seems to have never or rarely fought the injustices in his past and so now he argues whenever possible on the Internet. A form of therapy perhaps ?



2- what is with this representation and trial stuff? Mad ravings, I guess ::)

3- you really expect one man (me) to end ALL of human rights violations?
If you think ONE person can do it in a matter of weeks then lets see YOU do it.
Me, I'll stay grounded in reality and keep adding my time,resourses and strength to the cause instead.

Madcap
02-07-2004, 01:52 PM
I don't think is right for people to be telling these ladies that they shouldn't feel the way they do. They feel that way for a reason, it's called life experiences. I just hope that life in the future will bring them diffent experiences to draw from

Understood. Topaz just goes out of her way to be negative and dump on people. I'm not putting up with that. Someone can feel however they want, but don't bring it on me. You know? I didn't do shit to them.



Topaz, it does not make you a bigot- bigots hate without any logical reason. My hope is that a man will someday treat you ( and others who feel the way you do) as you deserve and that is with care, concern and respect .

Actually, that's incorrect. According to the english language a bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices. If a guy gets robbed by a black man and then, as a result, hates all black men he's a bigot. If some bible thumper thinks that wiccans are satanists and as a result hates them, he's a bigot Regardless of whether there's a source for the hate or not. It doesn't matter. You can't just redefine words as you see fit. They already have definitions.




EDIT: I concur with the hope that Topaz finds some way to be happy, but i'm not mollycoddling her when she's dumping on me.

JimLovesJazz
02-07-2004, 02:00 PM
Actually, that's incorrect. According to the english language a bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices. If a guy gets robbed by a black man and then, as a result, hates all black men he's a bigot. If some bible thumper thinks that wiccans are satanists and as a result hates them, he's a bigot Regardless of whether there's a source for the hate or not. It doesn't matter. You can't just redefine words as you see fit. They already have definitions.

EDIT: I concur with the hope that Topaz finds some way to be happy, but i'm not mollycoddling her when she's dumping on me.


In theory I'd have to agree but theory doesn't always prove true in day to day reality.
If a person has nothing but negative experiences with something they naturally develop an aversion to it. It is a natural self preservation reflex.

Its a little like the dog and the bell experiment

Madcap
02-07-2004, 02:02 PM
Aversion, fine. Dump on me when I didn't do anything to you, not fine.

polecat
02-07-2004, 03:01 PM
Well, the main thing that I find patently ridiculous is the suggestion that someone needs to conduct a study of 500 million people in order to justify their own feelings on things. It's also hypocritical since the one suggesting this already is expressing a generalized opinion... and somehow I doubt they have had exposure to 500,000,000 people.

I still believe it comes down to a law of percentages. I cherish those precious, rare few mainly due to the contrast of others I'm less compatible with. What builds our recognition of this is our spirit, heart, experiences and observations. There are some common requisites that all people share, but for the lion's share, we're all unique and individual otherwise.

While it may be natural to feel compassion for others and intend good wishes upon others, it's rarely possible in the form of dictating values or imposing belief systems. We can state our own values and share our own experiences, but it's counter-productive when this is only being used as a device to try and impact change.

erotictonic
02-07-2004, 05:42 PM
Dreamer, you are right about one thing. It was ridiculous for me to stay with this person. When I met him, I was obviously messed up. He took all the bad and made it worse. Then he replaced the good with the bad. Now i am trying to come back to what I once was, and make that alot better. I think I have the tools now. There are many reasons why women stay in situations such as this one. Mine was mainly out of fear.

Your other arguments are a little silly. I'll have to agree with Polecat. I just wish I could come across these rare gems that he mentions. I have been surrounded by slime.

cb
02-07-2004, 06:18 PM
Back to the original question, I think we have proof here that some dancers are hostile towards men, sometimes as a result of mistreatment by men in their adult lives or childhoods. Some men are disrespectful toward dancers and other women, sometimes as a result of poor parenting. In either case, it is unhealthy to continue acting out with hostility and disrespect. Hopefully, people in these situations will come to realize what they are doing and seek to change their attitudes and behavior; otherwise they will likely have trouble forming relationships with the many kind, caring, wonderful people who actually exist. If you know at least one of these people, surely you know in your heart there are others.

I find it fascinating that so many men come here to defend the male gender. The question is about WHY dancers are hostile towards men, not WHETHER men deserve it. Some men are scum; some men are not. Some women know this; some do not. You're not going to change anyone's mind by getting in her face, demeaning her opinions and pretending to be a psychotherapist. You're just making it worse. Try not to be so insecure.

Jay Zeno
02-07-2004, 06:37 PM
Argh.

My very first posting suggested a reason, and it was not very complimentary to the males whom it was referring to.

I am not defending males. I am not denying anyone's right to hate whomever they please. I felt I was falsely accused of some traits. I defended against that accusation.

So, over a year later, let me restate my original thought more globally.

Q - Why do so many dancers hate men?

A - Because so many men have acted like pigs towards them.

And I think that's been supported by the statements in this thread.

Madcap
02-07-2004, 09:45 PM
I find it fascinating that so many men come here to defend the male gender. The question is about WHY dancers are hostile towards men, not WHETHER men deserve it. Some men are scum; some men are not. Some women know this; some do not. You're not going to change anyone's mind by getting in her face, demeaning her opinions and pretending to be a psychotherapist. You're just making it worse. Try not to be so insecure.


Hey, I'm not defending men a bit. They really are disgusting! Check a medical journal for a list of objects removed from men's asses for proof of that (You'll never be the same again). Women don't seem to shove a lot up there.

My point is that someone should at least be intellectually honest about their own prejudices, since we all have them. I'll admit to using the term 'bible thumper' a lot (quite prejudicial), and my reason is that I live in the bible belt (hell, the bible buckle) and have to deal with them constantly trying to get laws passed removing the word "evolution" from science classes (for instance). Most of these people (the hardcore ones, anyway) drive me nuts! Sure, they are usually well intentioned but that doesn't count for much when they are trying to stuff the world headfirst into the 12th century!

So, see?

Intellectual honesty. I have my own prejudices to deal with. When something is what it is, why call it anything other than what it is?

Topaz
02-08-2004, 01:12 PM
actually...the man that pastors the church i go to...90% of my current male friends (and i have more male friends than female friends)...and about 70% of the guys that i work with directly...i don't have a problem with...and don't hate...at all...

the guys that i do greatly dislike fall into the range from guys that are abusive (like the pedifiles and the woman beaters) to the guys that care more about their buddies (or jobs)...and don't give a shit about their wives/girlfriends or families.

(the lying..cheating assholes...and the guys with narrow minded views on what makes a woman beautiful...fit into this catagory as well)

the guys that i have had close...initmate contact with...and most of the 'men' around here (in mayberry)...fall into the later catagory....and my experiences have left me not even desireing to be with a man anymore...

so i don't fit into you all's little definition of a bigot or manhater...but that's what you all chose to automatically think about me....so whatever...

:peace:

Dreamer
02-08-2004, 03:12 PM
Topaz, you continue to astonish me. I thought you said that you hate men. I am surprised that you even have male friends. Well anyway, congratulations.
Erotic, here's another question for you. Why do you work at a job that requires you be financed primarily by males? Aren't you making yourself dependent upon men?
As niceguy said so eloquently" It must be strange alienating your customer."
Of those men that have abused you, how do you know that they have not been abused by a female? Perhaps their mother? I know it's not an excuse that's why I do not excuse your sexist attitude. That's right , that's what it's called. When someone is violated by someone that person has the right to apprehend the parties responsible for the action, bring them to trial, and IF found guilt THEN they may seek LEGAL remedies.
The situation with a sexist is that they believe they have the right to extract retribution to anyone who possess the affilition to the group.
If someone steals your car, if you can apprehend the thief responsible , take them to trial, receive a favorable judgement THEN you have the right to restrain, fine, suspend/ restrict their rights and privaledges, inflict pain, incarcerate, and if the offense is strong enough, take their life as prescribed by law.
You cannot just indiscriminately go out and steal someone elses car. You cannot use the excuse that this/these people are affiated even remotely by gender, race, religion , political affiliation, philosophy, any physical attribute (fat, tall, disabled) , occupation, social status, financial status, or any of the endless distinctions you can make as justification. All you have done if adopted the same philosophy as that of the thief which puts you on the same level. If you have committed an offense against someone based on affiliation to the offending group ,then you have justified all the actions they have done against you. If you take action against anyone other than the responsible group then you are saying what they did was right all along.
I realize the magnitude of the offense against you but it does not give you the right to adopt a sexist policy. There are other women on this web that have suffered the same offenses that you have ie. rapes, beatings that have found the strenght not to adopt an indiscriminate hate policy. They still like men. So if you do act out indiscriminately out of a sexist policy I do have a right to refute, restrain, and defend myself against you.
I do not hate you even though I will take action against you if I see fit. I don't hate those that have treated me out of sexist doctrine here-Rayanna, Lilith, Tigerlily, Jimlovesjazz, although I have gotten into some heated debates. THe way I view it is this. I think of them as someone who has been in a tragic accident and as result of the trauma have received serious judgemental imparement. I don't hate anyone. I think everyone deep inside is basicly good.

erotictonic
02-08-2004, 03:25 PM
wtf??? Dreamer, I believe I am the victim here. I'm not planning on stealing anyone's car, and there is no need to "restrain or defend" yourself against me. lol. Your arguments are once again ridiculous. I have worked 9 to 5 jobs, and I was harrassed as much there as I have been in sc. I think I could be labeled a sexist. I don't trust men. I don't like men, and that's not going to change. However, that is not going to make me act out in any way because a man is a man. I think that some people deep inside are manipulators, liars, cheaters, violent rapists. Why is this? Because society has created them. If you are worried about hating the people on this site because of something they may have said, then you need to open up your eyes.

erotictonic
02-08-2004, 03:52 PM
btw, i think slime comes in all varieties. The bar scene is full of them. They look thru peepholes at people using the bathroom (men and women). Watch out because there are peepholes everywhere. In almost every tanning bed. There's even one in the real estate office here. They slip drugs in drinks all the time (women and men). IMO, anyone who looks thru a peephole at someone is slime. Anyone who slips drugs in someone's drink is slime. That constitutes about half of this town.

Rayleen
02-08-2004, 05:19 PM
there is no need to "restrain or defend" yourself against me. lol. Your arguments are once again ridiculous.

Tonic- I can't see what he has said to you since I've got the :butthead: blocked but I can see your replies so I thought I'd remind you and any one else who can't stand Dreamer or any other member for that matter, that you can block peoples posts from showing when your signed in.

Check site issues for directions on how. Dreamer is pulling your chain for his entertainment, he lives for that kind of BS. I enjoyed this site before but it's even better now that I can block jerkwad messages from showing up. 8)

Madcap
02-08-2004, 07:52 PM
Topaz,

It's not that big of a deal. I made more out of it than it probably deserved, but once again: We all have our prejudices (Remember what I said about Holy Rollers, I am no exception). If you're worried about men, reclusiveness just MIGHT be a good thing for you. Just don't let it effect your whole life. That's never a good thing.



Erotic,

You do have a point. A friend of mine (female) was actually slipped the date rape drug once. She woke up naked in a field in Illinois. You don't have to believe it, but a lot of guys would kill a man if they saw them do some BS like that (When I went to see her in the hospitol, I had to try to look as content as I could, inside I was red hot with anger, because she had already had to deal with one man who couldn't control himself. I wasn't about to make her deal with another, i wasn't very successful).

Also,

Once, when I was younger, i was using this guy's bathroom and I looked down to see his eyeball staring up through a little hole in the floor. That sucked. When caught, he wouldn't come upstairs because he knew I was going to clobber him if I saw him. So you're right about peepholes, too. ugh.

erotictonic
02-08-2004, 10:05 PM
I was slipped I don't know how many drugs - I don't know how many times. I do know that one night, actually Feb. 14, 2003, my ex-boyfriend, the rest of his band, and the bar owners slipped GHB in my drink. They locked the door so I couldn't get out. I looked in the mirror and my eyes were completely black underneath. My heart started beating so fast I felt like I was going to take flight. I hallucinated and totally freaked out. They taped the whole thing on tape, then played it for people to turn them against me. One night about six months before that, one of his bandmates slipped acid in my drink. It was the day after my ex-boyfriend hit me in the head about 30 or 40 times so I wasn't thinking clearly as it was. I had been to a concert that night. I sat there and talked and told a bunch of personal stuff about myself. Actually trying to get him to help me with my b/f. Little did I know this was also being taped. I ended up insulting their band and some other people on the tape, and he went and played it for people to turn them against me. I told some embarrassing moments from my past. He didn't like me because I "stoled" my boyfriend away from them. After we met, he quit practicing with the band. I don't see that as being my fault. That was his decision. So in order to punish me, he turned everyone against me. Did it work? I really don't know what anyone thinks, but they can think what they want to. I am the one who knows how I was abused.

Also, my ex'es gf owned a bar he played in. She had a peephole cut thru to the girl's bathroom. They used to watch me pee in there.

I think I was living with my worst enemy.

Madcap
02-08-2004, 10:09 PM
Why didn'y you call the cops? That shit is illegal, you know!

erotictonic
02-08-2004, 10:15 PM
Honestly, at the time I was too fried to even think of calling the police. The other time, I was so drunk that I didn't realize until later that I was under the influence of something else.

I think they do that to each other too. I've seen my ex come in and pass out in the floor alot. Also, get sick. I've also seen him and his bandmate have to be carried in from the car. If you see anyone with their head down passed out in a bar, they've probably been slipped xanax. I've had that happen too.

Now, I order drinks closed. I won't drink any drink that I haven't opened. And I watch over it like a hawk.

erotictonic
02-08-2004, 10:17 PM
I thought that because I wouldn't participate in these activities, that other people wouldn't either. There seems to be more people in bars that are willing to do these things than there aren't. Beware!!! It's your life you are protecting.

Madcap
02-08-2004, 10:51 PM
And you have no male friends who will defend you? I'd beat a man within an inch of his life for doing what you describe!

erotictonic
02-08-2004, 11:17 PM
No, my ex was the one who instigated the GHB incident. He didn't realize it either the other times. He also didn't know they were taping me. He found all this out the day before he threw a beer bottle and hit me in the head. He explained what all they had done to me. I mean, people that I thought were my friends and would take up for me were the ones doing it. They claim it was because I insulted their band, yet I was being taped on acid when I did so. Then they claim it was because I stoled him away from the band. People take their side, regardless of what they do. It is a group of musicians that all have one thing in common - they were molested and beaten as children. They are generally on the slimey side. This town seems to be generally on the slimey side. Anyway, this town is only 75,000 people, if that. So word travels fast. And they've dug up all the dirt they can on me, I did alot of stupid things when I was younger. And they spread it all over town. Of course it is totally one-sided. So while I am the one that has been victimized, beaten, drugged, lied to, cheated on, manipulated, etc., I am being seen as the bad guy. No one wants to take my side because there are just too many of them, I assume. So I can't even go into a convenience store without being harrassed. I can't even go to a CASA meeting without every word I say being repeated. It's the work of a sick mind.