View Full Version : Mindset of Gentlemens Club Customers
velvet
01-10-2003, 07:43 AM
oh in no way do i NOT think im a sex worker nor do i have a problem with escorts. JUST NOT IN THE CLUB .there is a place for dancing and a place for hooking. they should not be in the same venue period! i know what she (he really) was trying to say. i dont look down on those girls if thats what they choose. on the other hand i dont expect to come to a site for dancers and hear about how great some trick is in a tittie bar where he doesnt belong. bars are for dancing not hooking period. if they take it outside the club then oh well there is nothing i can say about that but dont pollute our venues with prostitution
I was wondering if girls who have or do extras would come forward on this board. Thank you T-back for your honest response. Having worked in Houston I am quite familiar with the waitress role in hooking guys up with girls who "play".
I have worked with lots of girls in clubs all over the country who have sex with customers outside the club and who do extras in Houston, but ironically EVERY girl who posts on these dancer forums doesn't do extras. Some of the girls who post here have to be doing extras but ashamed to say they do given the high numbers of dancers around the country who perform sexually with their customers.
I won't condemn a girl for her choices, but I just know that some of the posters here do extras and won't admit to them.
Ricki Lake did a show about strippers and strip clubs today... they showed a private investagator taking a hidden camera to a sc; he went to the back room three times with three different dancers, and two of them offered a bj for $50 and sex for $100 after they did a cop check. I live in San Francisco, and we have three brothels, er, I mean strip clubs up here that offer the same service.
Melonie
01-10-2003, 11:35 AM
Now we're getting down to the REAL agenda behind demonizing strip clubs by the mainstream media. #1 it boosts ratings - #2 it deflects attention away from the customer side of the equation (the teachers, ministers, doctors, lawyers and don't forget politicians), because if the dancers are portrayed as evil seductresses then these guys can rationalize that they were "victimized" into spending money on tits and ass by these evil women and not through their own horniness etc. It was bad enough when individual cities and states were crusading against dance clubs. With both houses of congress now republican, and with national media giving dance clubs bad press, I shudder to think of the possibilities ...
Ok tv viewer. . . the point you're making is. . . what?
That strip clubs and brothels are the same thing?
I find it amazing that 'mainstream society' would think that. Especially since some of the same people pointing the accusational finger are. . .sleeping around. . .turning tricks. . .etc. But hide behind the titles of . . .store clerk. . . manager . . . teacher. . . minister. . . doctor. . . factory worker. . . lawyer. . . I could go on. :-/
I grew up in a very conservative area, and( I hate to admit) believed most dancers were drug addicted high school drop outs that were desperate to make money any way they could, and the customers were criminals and misfits.
The first time I went into a stripclub, for a bachelor party I was scared to death. I thought all the dancers were evil and could not even look at them without feeling very embarassed. Although I could not really relax enough to enjoy myself, I was intrigued.
One year later I was out of town with my boss, after going out for dinner and having several drinks my boss "forced" me to go to my first nude bar. Again I was very embarassed and my boss thought it was hilarious. He would give me money and have me go up to the stage and tip the dancers and I would wish I could just disappear I was so scared. When a dancer said anything to me I would turn beat red. Again I left feeling completely humilated, but still intrigued.
Slowly it took less and less to get me to the club. Now I am a regular at a club and consider many dancers to be friends. I enjoy myself a great deal at the clubs and think back at my ignorant views that I had of dancers and the customers and cringe.
My point is do not be suprised by the negative sterotypes that many people (or the media)have about stripclubs many people have been raised with negative views without having any real idea of what goes on.
On an unrelated note, I am very impressed with intelligence and civil tone of this board compared with others on the same topic.
Pamela
01-10-2003, 03:54 PM
I think we all need to remember it works both ways. Guy hits on girl, she accepts. Girl hits on guy, he accepts. I point the finger at the person who makes the sexual advance in the club. It's that simple.
Pamela
wanna_be_rode
01-11-2003, 09:47 AM
while i can say that
maybe houston may be just the most prolific of the extra market it is by no means the only market where there available .........
and that everyone somewhere somehow has done some kind fo extra < beond a legally defined dance in your area .>
i alos noticed that some of the dancers here speak of stage shows
honestly i dont think i have ever EVER seen a stage show mostly its a look at me strip show planning they just twirl and get undressed to the music >..
what do the ladies here consider a show and just not a strip
Rebecca
01-12-2003, 12:16 AM
Oh my Gracious! I can't believe what I just read - that was horrible. What we see as a horrible asshole customer - was proud of himself - ahhhhhhh.
Men suck .
Rebecca
Chuck149
01-12-2003, 01:22 AM
Oh my Gracious! I can't believe what I just read - that was horrible. What we see as a horrible asshole customer - was proud of himself - ahhhhhhh.
Men suck
Rebecca - Not all men suck - The views of the assholes are not the views of the majority of us men. Most of us love and respect you ladies for the fantastic services you provide. I'm not talking about "extra services" I'm talking about providing a fantasy that we can retreat to. Unfortunatly sites like this attract the "trolls" of the world. But remember, there are more of us than there are of them.
Rock on - Stay safe 8)
wanna_be_rode
01-12-2003, 07:02 AM
ask nicely what do you ladies think a real dance routine is and not just a take ur clothes of as you spin around routine
and i get attacked ................
so i will ask 1 more time what do yuo consider a GOOD dance routine to consist of
Sophie
01-14-2003, 08:22 AM
Bravo!
for your insightful and even-keeled post. Emotions run high when it comes to money in hard times. It is so refreshing to hear a balanced voice.
-Sophie
ib6ub9
01-14-2003, 05:13 PM
This whole conversation is odd - I mean, the things people are saying about providers/receivers are the same ignorant things some people say about strippers (oh, it's exploitative of the women; the guys that go to those places are pervs; what a gross environment).I concur with this very perceptive comment and am surprised no one else picked up on it. You gals can tend to be very judgmental, just like those who would judge you.
Like it or not these "extras" women are dancers...they are doing seemingly atypical dancer type activities but the meat of their job is dancing. Furthermore, how do you even hope to educate/influence them if you continue to trash them? They will never register and post here. Fine you say, we don't want them here...but I thought you gals wanted opinions, and the fact of the matter is these girls exist and are in your field of work. In your opinions they are diminishing what you do. Fine, then invite them here to discuss it like adults. Show them the folly of their ways. Or...find out if they do this by design and like it. Whatever, the case...you don't raise yourself up by putting others down.
6
Itchy
01-14-2003, 08:30 PM
Jeez, I've only had time to read this one thread -- and what a doozy. My first thought is how nice to see so many differing opinions and no real flames. I belong to a number of forums and message boards and this has to be the most civil. But like I said, this thread has been the only one I've read so far.
I'm happy to be a new member and would like to offer my first post by replying to this thread. It's an important topic, to be sure. I've been a regular at several Reno clubs over the last 6 or 7 years, visited clubs out of town and must say I've learned a thing or two in just this last hour.
My feeling as to why a girl will do extreme extras rather than just work at a brothel is because of how they feel about such places and themselves. It may have taken them a while to become used to the fact they are sex industry workers doing "light duty" -- dancing and such. They have reached a desparate time and feel they have to do more to earn, but aren't willing to accept it in their minds.
I have to caution the few entertainers I have come to know over the years: Entertaining IS a real job. Do not undervaluate yourself. It's hard work, it's skilled work, it takes physical AND mental acumen and business sense.
What can I say, I'm a guy and there are those of you who feel we are all the same -- and not very appealing at that. I am so lucky to have female friends who seem to feel differently. What troubles me is not so much the generalizations that a few women make, but the attitude of some of the men toward women that fosters these generalizations.
It bothers me that a couple of guys here think they are such great people because they "help" their dancer friends out of financial jams. Hell, I have no doubt they prey on these unfortunate girls -- and pray for them (pray that they will call them). They equate their buying of affection and sexual favors with friendship. Poor guys.
Lest you think I hold myself above reproach, think again. I was just relating a story on another board of a trip I made to Vegas a couple years ago and how wonderful it was to grope and fondle the delicious flesh of a dancer or two. Well, I didn't put it exactly like that, but you get the idear. Guilty as charged -- and charged I was. Excited, I mean.
Entertainers entertain in different ways in different clubs. At that club, it was normal for the dancers to allow touching. I wasn't used to it, being from an area that has much stricter rules. In fact, I was surprised by it. But I didn't reject it. I could see that all the dancers in the club, at that particular time, were allowing touching to some extent or another. Just to make me look good, my favorite dancer was one who allowed less touching than another.
Hey, I'm making an effort here. ;)
I think there's a line to be drawn, but I think it depends on certain factors. I'm a customer, so I can't say where those lines should be drawn. But I'm not one of those guys who "expects" extras. I think the less I expect, the less I am disappointed. I would like you to believe that I don't generally hang out with entertainers who do extreme extras (like I say, there's a line) and it does make me a little uncomfortable -- like I'm being worked. But that's something that has to be known first hand, I guess.
This all reminds me of the professional message boards I belong to (Flooring related), especially the comments just made by ib6ub9. Many of us on those boards like to think we are at the very pinnacle of professionalism and would like other industry members to join us in raising the bar. But we constantly belittle and deride the members of our profession who could give a rats ass how they make a buck. It's hard to get them to join us when we try so hard to convince them they don't belong. I was there once.
Anyway, I don't know if I've added anything productive to this thread, but it is a very interesting topic. I didn't get a chance to read the thread on that other board, but I can imagine I prob'ly wouldn't like it there much. Glad I found this board and hope to enjoy it often.
whispers
01-15-2003, 04:32 AM
...............Like it or not these "extras" women are dancers...they are doing seemingly atypical dancer type activities but the meat of their job is dancing. Furthermore, how do you even hope to educate/influence them if you continue to trash them? They will never register and post here. Fine you say, we don't want them here...but I thought you gals wanted opinions, and the fact of the matter is these girls exist and are in your field of work. In your opinions they are diminishing what you do. Fine, then invite them here to discuss it like adults. Show them the folly of their ways. Or...find out if they do this by design and like it. Whatever, the case...you don't raise yourself up by putting others down.
6
Not only am I a contributor to forums on ASPD I was one of the more frequent posters and am probably still regarded as having an above average amount of knowledge on the Strip Club Scene. I was not very popular with many a female provider on the site because of my ability to introduce men to ladies that danced and would also exchange their companionship for money at rates cheaper than escorts.
6 is very right in the statement that you'll never change any of these ladies by not trying to discuss things with them.
Most clubs have a lady or 2 that offer cheaper dances and extras. These ladies define not only themselves but also the club and in some way you.
Why should a guy want to spend more to get less?
I've spent probably in excess of $2-$3K a month in strip clubs over the years.
A lot of that on ladies that provided extras. I'm a businessman that entertains clients and when one of you ladies accepts my money to entertain me or a client and I pay a months bills with the profits from the deal you helped me close it was well worth the investment.
I've known a lot of ladies that said NO. NEVER. and ended up crossing the line. Some go back. Some never do. Some find a way to blend the two.
There is a lady in Houston right now that swore she would never accept money for sex but knew that I played that game a few times. (probably a gross understatement) We hit it off after a few evenings out and she ended up allowing me to pay her overhead and transportaion bills in exchange for her company 2 nights a week and every other weekend she would travel with me (and everything that might mean). In the literal sense of the word she was a provider. I had friends that wanted to "date" her but she said OH NO I could never do that" yet she took my money without issue. We split up after my wife found out about her. Now she's back to dancing.
Theres another one in San Antonio working a job I got her and driving a car in my name (she pays the bills), living in an apartment I signed for because she had bad credit. I don't actually ever give her money but I do take her shopping and spend money on her. Would she sleep with me if I didn't? Nope. Would I spend the money if she didn't? No. But she doesn't "sell herself" or work in the clubs anymore and would never consider the escort business.
How many times has a lady here been interested with a guy and slept with him without committment just to keep him around? Just to maintain that relationship even if he might not want one with you? Your trading yourself for something you want there.
How many ladies have "done the manager"? For what? A job or a better shift? The ability to go home early?
What I'm saying is that often a lady will compromise hersalf and her values to get something like stability or even worse pretended love and often less than those.
Don't be so quick to judge the ladies that make a concious decision to be more businesslike about it. The good ones bring a lot of business into the clubs and money that gets spread around.
After all. You can always say no.
And for the most part. You'll find far more gentlemen in the group of guys that post on ASPD than you could imagine. More men that spend money and respect you in public.
I remember 1 afternoon in particular I was with a groupp of about 10 other ASPD guys at the Mens Club in Houston. We had a lady with us that was getting table dances and everyone was taking turns buying her a dance from a lady and enjoying the 2 interact. A manager got pieved and said the lady had to leave. Our waitress literally CRIED as we started closing our tabs. It was 2 in the afternoon. We went to Treasures and the groupp probably spent $20K that day
What you read there is locker room bravado. Men thumping their chests and showing off their conquests. It's nature in it's rawest. We're much nicer in person.
boys will be boys ;)
velvet
01-15-2003, 04:46 AM
9... women that have crossed that line dont feel the need to be influneced or educated, in fact i'm sure they feel somewhat above us that they found more ways to "get over" . i will never agree that those women that trade sex for money are dancers, even if that is the "hook" in the club for them. of course that is the meat of the job it's supposed to be a strip club. i dont put myself above those girls i just have a diffrent job then they do. we are all in the sex industry. i dance and tease. they dance and have sex big diffrence.
itchey, thanks for the back up from a customer prospective.
whispers
01-15-2003, 07:06 AM
A couple of you ladies did seem to "hit the nail on the head".
For men with some spare cash it's not about the act as much as getting there.
A favorite saying of mine is that "It's not the taste of the meat but the thrill of the hunt" that I like.
I know of no one that enjoys seeing a women grovel for money.
As to Houston dancers and their backgrounds. I know many a girl putting herself through college. It's a high dollar business that lets a girl work a couple of days a week instead of a full time job and make twice as much.
And I would venture to say that behind a third of the girls dancing is some lazy guy sitting on his ass at home watching Springer. I've always had FAR more luck getting ladies that were married or had boyfriends to go out with me than the "single" ones.
In regards to Houston being an "exception". Not at all. I currently live in the Florida Keys and clubs throughout Miami offer the exact same action. A $50 tip to a club manager or waitress with a knowing smile seems to open doors in any club around the country.
It's been that way since I first started visiting clubs in 1975 in San Antonio, Houston, Dallas, San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Boston, Chicago, Phoenix, Tuscon, Vegas, Miami and even Boise Idaho.
The only scene I would lump as soft that I've encountered in years has been Orlando.
velvet
01-15-2003, 09:22 AM
i know all about miami, and there are a few other markets that offer full service, but they still thank god remain the exception. you live in the keys i know you dont get extras there, maybe after hours there or any of the other markets you mentioned as i'm sure some places have changed since 1975 and no longer allow extras in the club.
wanna_be_rode
01-15-2003, 11:11 AM
i notice my question about what the ladies consider a GOOD dance routine to consist of never got answered
so lets get on with what this topic turned into
i have traveled world wide and i have never ever found a place < club > that i couldnt get some kind of extra .
Amber
01-15-2003, 11:41 AM
Whispers, I don't know when the last time you went to a SC in Boston was, but I must say that your knowledge of the scene here cannot possibly be at all recent. Clubs here have been this way for as long as I can remember (granted I am pretty young, though, so if you haven't been to a club here *since* 1975, that would explain it).
From what I've seen and heard Boston is *at least* as strict as Orlando in regard to the contact issue. There is absolutely NO contact in the Greater Boston area. I do not know of any club within a 20 mile radius of Boston that violates this law - pretty much any guy from the Boston area will attest to this.
I will agree that there are several other areas of the country where it is typically normal for dancers to provide "extras", but Boston is not one of them. Guys here looking for contact will refer to Boston as "strip club hell", they'll drive down to Providence to get what contact is provided there. To them it's heaven in comparison, but it's still typically only one-sided contact and, even there, there is still MUCH less contact available than in many other areas of the country. What clubs have you been in that provide "extras" as you mentioned?? Just curious.
On another note, there's a lot of very good points here. It's nice to be able to discuss both sides of an issue like this without regressing into childish behavior. I am not going to argue the matter of "extras". Certain people have their own views, which may differ from my own, but I cannot expect them to change just to make me happy. To me, this just seems like a never-ending argument, as we are not about to change each other's views on such a subject.
i dont put myself above those girls i just have a diffrent job then they do. we are all in the sex industry. i dance and tease. they dance and have sex big diffrence.
I very much agree. It is an enormous difference. There are many reasons why I would never cross the line to start performing "extras".
All moral reasoning aside, with the number of diseases out there now a days, I would be petrified of what I might come in contact with. I know some will say that prostitutes do not have a higher rate of contracting such diseases, which may very well be true. I just don't think that the measly hundred or so (maybe even less) that these girls get for performing such "extras" is worth the risk that I would be putting myself at.
whispers
01-15-2003, 02:39 PM
i'm sure some places have changed since 1975 and no longer allow extras in the club.
I said I STARTED in 1975. I still get around the country 3-4 times a month on business darlin. My information is rather current. Every city I listed I've played in in the last 18 months.
As to the Keys? NO extras in the clubs but very lenient management lets gals take "lunch breaks".
An hour here. An hour there.
Lots of pretty Czech girls and a favorite 22yo RedHead from Ohio!
Plus the area sports "Table Dance" and Private Dance clubs where $100 gets you an hour long behind closed doors and a tip goes a lot further. Licensed as Strip clubs but .........
But in all honesty.......... College Coeds partying are just as available and easy to talk into a day on the reef or one of the outlying islands.
You enjoy the men you find darlin. The only diference in men and boys is the cost of their toys ;)
Susan Wayward
01-16-2003, 12:11 AM
Hey, WBR,
I'll answer your question about a good dance routine. I think a girl on stage should be able to dance some, not just wiggle and strut. She should be wearing something attractive and sexy, that looks like there was thought put into it, not a wifebeater and thong or mismatched top and bottom like I've seen. She should smile at the guys, pay attention to the audience, and not sing along or drift off into space. When guys tip her on stage she should give them a good show, play with them and flirt, not just take their tip and move on. She should make you want to see more!
That's what a good standard stage routine should be. A really good one involves having a theme, with costume and music, and actual choreography.
That's my opinon on a good stage show.
whispers
01-16-2003, 09:30 AM
Hey, WBR,
I'll answer your question about a good dance routine. I think a girl on stage should be able to dance some, not just wiggle and strut. ...............
Absolutely. I love watching a woman that knows HOW to dance and can put together a routine to music. Especially latin music.
Too many ladies do the runway routine or their only skill is bending over and bouncing the excess flesh on their backsides.
One of the finest dancers I saw actually did a set to "Candle in the Wind" of all songs. Perfectly coreographed and erotic as heck.
whispers
01-16-2003, 09:32 AM
Hey, WBR,
I'll answer your question about a good dance routine. I think a girl on stage should be able to dance some, not just wiggle and strut. ...............
Absolutely. I love watching a woman that knows HOW to dance and can put together a routine to music. Especially latin music.
Too many ladies do the runway routine or their only skill is bending over and bouncing the excess flesh on their backsides.
One of the finest dancers I saw actually did a set to "Candle in the Wind" of all songs. Perfectly coreographed and erotic as heck.
Thanks lurking. I don't like tooting my own whistle. It did come easy though as a result of my owning nightclubs myself (not strip). It was common to meet the ladies in my club and migrate there. Lot's of "backscratching" amongst the clubowners in a very supportive market.
Have things really come down to this?
Flamingo
03-02-2003, 08:04 AM
I haven't read all these responses, but I think some of 'em have got it right when they say there are jerks everywhere but they are, thank God, a minority.
Do I fantasize about dating one of the girls I meet in the club? Sure. Would I pay for a BJ in the back room? No. Sure, it's a fantasy thing. That doesn't mean I'd pass up the chance to make my fantasy come true IF it was real, with the right girl, and meant something...not just being a john. I hope that makes sense. I respect most of the dancers I meet. They're working hard to make a living and support a kid or two...I don't think they're whores, and I don't WANT them to be.
sol_de_pr2
03-02-2003, 08:14 AM
I love watching a woman that knows HOW to dance and can put together a routine to music. Especially latin music.
Too many ladies do the runway routine or their only skill is bending over and bouncing the excess flesh on their backsides.
One of the finest dancers I saw actually did a set to "Candle in the Wind" of all songs. Perfectly coreographed and erotic as heck. Last night at Deja Vu in San Juan I saw two of the girls dancing to a salsa tune! The first time I've heard salsa being played in a strip club in, of all places, Puerto Rico! Maybe I was sprinkled by hot sauce but I ended doing a private dance with one of them!
sugar_Kane
03-03-2003, 07:35 PM
O.k, First of all, a "dancer" who offers sexual favors for money is a whore not a dancer, and she has no place in a strip club whatsoever. It really pisses me off how the terms whore and dancer keep getting confused. >:( In my opinion prostitution is completely disgusting and the lowest level a girl could possibly drop down to, Im not talking about high priced escorts who charge $1500 to spend the night with a well kept business man, I'm talking about those sad sorry girls who will do whatever you please for $50 or less for example...cause they have children to feed and rent to pay. Try putting yourself in that girls shoes for a moment, she has to screw some nasty disgusting slob for money...this is so god damn wrong, its sick and its horrible. Why don't all you arrogant bastards out there stop and think for a second and try to understand what it feels like for her to be doing this sick shit. Its just so damn hurtful that people think this kinda thing is o.k. Its not, it never was, and it never will be.
Devastating Divyne
03-03-2003, 08:27 PM
Prostitution is completely disgusting and the lowest level a girl could possibly drop down to, Im not talking about high priced escorts who charge $1500 to spend the night with a well kept business man, I'm talking about those sad sorry girls who will do whatever you please for $50 or less
So, technically its okay to sell sex for money as long as u r getting paid a lot. Some girls think that $1500 for an evening is a bit low, some charge that or more for an hour. I don't understand how it can be okay to do if u don't need the money to feed kids or pay rent, but it is okay if , presumably, u don't have kids or if u sell urself to a businessman as opposed to "some nasty slob" If prostitution is disgusting to a person it is disgusting in all its forms. So, U can be a whore but u must be a high priced whore.
Now, if it had been stated that u did not mean escorts who were strictly on the up and up ( and there are just a few of these agencies left around) and got paid for business and social engagements, that was one thing. But to say that being a prostitute is okay as long as u call urself an escort and charge a lot is a contradiction in terms. The basics are the same, the amount and title are different.
Prostitutes, whores, escorts, call girls, hookers, hoes or whatever one chooses to call them: make choices to do the things they do. Outside of the club, is fine. Many of them would not waste their time playing dancer b/c they think its a waste of their time where they could be out socializing with potential clients. If a lady can look at herself in the mirror and like what she sees, regarless to what title has been attached to her, then I don't have a problem as long as its kept outside the club.
whispers
03-03-2003, 09:51 PM
O.k, First of all, a "dancer" who offers sexual favors for money is a whore not a dancer,...............................
..................... Im not talking about high priced escorts who charge $1500 to spend the night with a well kept business man..........................this is so god damn wrong, its sick and its horrible. Why don't all you arrogant bastards out there stop and think for a second and try to understand what it feels like for her to be doing this sick shit. Its just so damn hurtful that people think this kinda thing is o.k. Its not, it never was, and it never will be.
But you seem to "imply" that it IS OK if it's a businessman with $1500 vs a slob with $20.
Seems to me that your wanting to walk the fence a little..........
I would "guess" that your someone that HAS put a price on it and felt guilty afterwards about not getting paid "enough"......
There is no question that a dancer accepting money for sex is prostituting herself.
Wrong? Not in a lot of countries or even some areas of our culture.....
It's all a matter of personal standards and how far you want to press the legality of something you do not agree with.
For example..... Laws regarding speeding....... Wrong? Against the Law? Do you do it?
I see a lower level girls sink to quite regularly..... Dealt with a young lady guilty of it tonight as a matter of fact..... It's spring break here in Key West and the college kids are out to play....... I rescued 1 young lady about to end up in a room with 5 young men......
She was incredibly drunk and would not have remembered 8 hours from now what she had done or who she had done it with ......
I see young women get drunk all the time and "give it away"...... pay the price through abortion or raising fathger less children...........
I see promiscuity alive and well... not like my days in the 70's but not far from it....
Pardon me while I have a little more respect in a lady in need that puts a value on a service and can deal with it in a mature manner.
Not all men that "pay for it" HAVE to pay for it..... some of us trul;y look at it as a luxury we can afford. ;)
money
03-03-2003, 11:59 PM
Sugar Kane you are incredible! A woman charging $1500.00 for sex and one that charges $20.00 is the same thing: a prostitute no matter how you cut the pie! The charges when you get arrested are the same! Sugar, your comment basically is verifying what men have been saying about women for years: everyone has their price! I think you should retract your comment or embellish it just a bit so you do not look so bad.
Bridgette
03-04-2003, 01:18 AM
Oh boy. I've avoided this thread until now because I didn't want to open it and find alot of childish crap. I am surprised to find a decent discussion. Of course some people obviously feel very passionate about their opinions and are very blunt in their statements, but overall it's quite mature. :)
Anyway, I'm not going to really get into my opinion on strip club extras, other than to reiterate my previously posted statements that I believe sexual activity should be kept out of strip clubs.
But there are a couple points I'd like to address:
I won't condemn a girl for her choices, but I just know that some of the posters here do extras and won't admit to them.
I'm quite sure there are some members of this board who provide sexual extras, or who have in the past, but of course they're not going to post the info here, since there is such a prevalent anti-extra sentiment. Girls who provide extras (we can call them prostitutes) don't want to feel the negativity of 'clean' dancers who trash them, same as we don't like the negativity of 'moral' women who don't work in the sex industry and feel better than us.
Like it or not these "extras" women are dancers...they are doing seemingly atypical dancer type activities but the meat of their job is dancing. Furthermore, how do you even hope to educate/influence them if you continue to trash them? They will never register and post here. Fine you say, we don't want them here...
From??
Exactly. I'd be really surprised to see many Houston dancers posting here, or openly saying that they work in x club and that x aspd posters are their regular customers. I was glad to see tback's post, because at least she brings a perspective other than the male side or the 'I'll never do that' side.
And I would venture to say that behind a third of the girls dancing is some lazy guy sitting on his ass at home watching Springer. I've always had FAR more luck getting ladies that were married or had boyfriends to go out with me than the "single" ones.
From whispers
Tback says that 70% of dancers in Houston clubs are providing extras and I believe it. Figure at least half of those are the ones with loser boys at home to support and put up with, it's probably a welcome change to actually be offered money for the sex they provide, instead of the other way around at home. I will further venture to say that since these guys openly talk about paying the girls' rent, car payments, utility bills, etc in exchange for sex, that the girls in question are not exactly what we call go-getters in terms of working and earning for the future. I daresay that most realize it's easier for them to provide sex than to get up and work. Not to sound negative towards tback or any other waitress, but these are exactly the type of girls who wind up waitressing at the club when they're too old and/or tired to dance. Whispers says he has better 'luck' with the attached girls - those whose SO's are leeches - than with the single ones. Wonder why that is? Just like a large portion of clean dancers who are top earners are also single. I don't know about you guys, but I'm seeing a pattern. Most girls providing extras in the club also have personal relationship problems, and those who don't have those particular relationship problems also tend not to provide in the clubs. And since club extras are almost always cheap, it further indicates the low self-worth of these providers.
Furthermore, as a few here have pointed out, it's common for dancers who are motivated and don't want to provide extras to move / travel to areas where they can earn decent money without providing. So, if the vast majority of dancers in a certain area are providing cheap extras in the clubs, it's no wonder why so many of those also consistently have a hard time covering the rent each month, and live with leeches. They're the ones left behind who are less motivated to work and opt to suck weenies in the VIP a few times a month to get by. If they're happy with that, well ok. It's been my experience that most people are inclined to go with the flow rather than move on or work for something better, and these providing dancers are no different. It's much harder to work hard and move or travel than to sit on your ass all month then go to the club or call an 'uncle' for a quick romp when the rent is due. But as a few guys on here have also pointed out, many many of these same girls will be left scrambling a few years down the road when they're STILL broke and having to find a weenie to suck on the 3rd of the month in order to avoid eviction.
Now, I want to say that I realize SOME women make prostitution a business choice because they realize they can make more money than just dancing, and they have much more money than most of us regular dancers. More power to them. If I could feel comfortable with having sex with multiple men for money, I reckon I'd do it too.
As for the men who want it and pay for it, well as long as they're treating the women properly I can't say I blame them. I do find distasteful those who take pleasure in 'convincing' girls who don't really feel comfortable with providing to do so. In my opinion, if she isn't comfortable with it overall, she's not comfortable with it period, no matter how 'nice' you are to her. Desperation will cause many dancers to ignore their own limits at times, and it's not cool for guys to take advantage of that.
Disclaimer: This is not meant to be negative to anyone, anywhere, anytime. It's just my own observations on this controversial issue.
sol_de_pr2
03-04-2003, 03:13 AM
It all boils down to whether a strip club is an appropiate place to have sex for money. In Puerto Rico there is an absolute prohibition against prostitution. Obviously enough, there are ways to get around this prohibition, as it happens with the illegal drug and weapons trade. If there were laws allowing the practice of prostitution in the proper places and with the proper licencing there would be little, if any, discussion about sexual acts inside a strip club. Heck, maybe those clubs incurring in extras would get the proper licences and sell themselves as strip clubs/brothels.
sugar_Kane
03-04-2003, 04:25 AM
Yeah, alright maybe I phrased my words wrong so let me try again. The first point I was trying to make was that sex should not be sold in the club at all. The second point I was trying to make is that most escorts, while they are still prostitutes, are not doing it put food on the table, they are usually pretty happy with themselves and money is not a problem for them. Surely you can see the difference between that and some low end hooker selling herself for $20 because she feels like that's the only thing she can do cause she's lost all respect for herself. I guess what I was trying to say was that if your not absolutely happy and comfortable with what your doing, you definitely shoulden't be doing it, point made. sorry for the confusion.
Bridgette
03-04-2003, 05:35 AM
A strip club may not be the most appropriate place to engage in prostitution, but on the continuum of appropriate places to engage in such actions, it is definitely one of the more appropriate place to do this. On this continuum, I would classify a church or nursery school classroom near the bottom as least appropriate places to engage in prostitution.
Yeah, you can say that, but it doesn't make what you guys are doing and expecting anymore right. In private, prostitution only puts those participating in the activity at risk, and really only affects those participants. In other places, it puts other people at a certain risk, and does bother other people - namely, those in the club trying to make money without sucking and fucking, and those trying to enjoy the experience without having to listen to the neighbors' ridiculous noises. Yep, guys, I've heard a few of yall's noises, and customers who only want dances complain about it. So I say, learn to be a bit more thoughtful and considerate of others, and take it out of the club!
That's all I have to say on the subject, because anything more would be redundant.
money
03-04-2003, 08:26 AM
Bridgette, you know I always agree with what you say, but please do not lay the blame on the men. Your last statement was basically inferred that men are looking for it. Lemme tell you a quick story. I never go to clubs looking for anything "extra". One day, I was getting a dance from someone that I had gotten a good # of dances from in the past. She was all over me, giving a good grind, then her hands started to wander. Next thing you know, my pants are unzipped and her hands really went to work! I didnt ask for it, didnt expect it therefore I didnt pay extra for it. I just gave her the amount for the amount of songs we were back for. I walked out of the dance area with my mouth wide open in amazement as that never happened to me before. But believe me, I didnt go back there looking for anything. This was a good 5 years ago. So, you cannot lay the onus on men only.
hi everyone
I just like to say its nice to finally get some dancer perspective on stuff like this. This is way more into the philosophy of the biz than just the locker room talk.The fact that extras in the clubs are more and more the norm is partly do to the fact that its so readially available. ON my local sc discussion boards here in san francisco its more like trip reports on which dancer you did and how much you spent. But then again extras have been super visable since 95. The vips complete with lube, gloves and condoms. Before you go, check the schedule of girl you want to see, complete with an entire menu of all the girls and what they do and how much. Go to the club, do your thing and go home to post about it in sfredbook.com (an escort reveiw forum) where the sc forum is more active than the escort forum. Out of all the nude clubs here only one doesn't offer drive through full service like this.
velvet
03-04-2003, 10:23 AM
thank god i dont live in san fran... no offense to anyone else that does. lube , gloves ,condoms indeed....... ick
Just wanted to respond to Bridgettes comment on how guys would not want to pay for dances if they legalized prostituion,,,,, Please modify that to SOME guys,,, I for one am not looking for prostitution when I go to a club. In fact for the most part I get as much out of the dances around here in Boston (where there is zero contact of any kind), as I do the full contact type. In some cases even more. If the girl is seductive in her dancing, it is quite a thrill and I am sure I am not the only guy who thinks so.
Bridgette
03-05-2003, 05:30 AM
Ok money you're right, sort of ;D I should have been more clear. When I referred to 'what you guys expect', I was specifically referring to ML and others here from Houston who openly say they want and expect extras in the strip clubs. Yes I also know that some girls initiate the extra, but I daresay that some or most of them are doing so as a result of being previously conditioned by customers before you who wanted and demanded it. It's amazing how many women in this day and age still have no idea that they can say NO. Not to say that men are pigs and the women are just innocent victims. On the contrary. The men being consumers are also practicing normal consumer behaviour by trying to see how much they can get for their dollar, and the women being suppliers are trying to maximize their dollars. If a man wants extra and offers a woman money for it, and the woman is in a position to believe she won't earn good money if she refuses, she will often agree. It's that simple. I am fortunate to understand that I have alternatives and be willing to work with them. I am also fortunate enough to work in a place where it is easy to make good money without extras.
Anyway, no I don't lay all the blame on the men. It is EQUAL. The men shouldn't be expecting it and the women shouldn't be offering it. Period. If they want to buy or sell it, they should do so in private where no one else will be involved or affected. That's my most important rule for living - treat others as you'd like to be treated and don't do things that you KNOW will negatively affect others.
sol_de_pr2
03-06-2003, 03:59 AM
Carlos is exactly right that if we legalized/decriminalized prostitution it would no longer be an issue, but then I daresay that the very business so many of us rely on would go by the wayside because guys would be even LESS willing to pay for dances when they could get full service legally, openly and freely. I just found out that both Deja Vu and Chicote, also in San Juan, were both raided last night for prostitution and obscenity. The purpose of this reply is to insist on the need to regulate prostitution, but I need to modify my previous statement as to how these "brothels" could sell themselves. With the proper laws and therefore the proper licensing these and other businesses would have no need to sell themselves as "strip clubs" as a way of getting around the current prohibition and therefore legitimate gentlemen's clubs would not only have their respective businesses assured, they would actually make more money because more guys would go to these clubs knowing that they will expect and receive dances, conversation and company. Those guys seeking "something else" will get what they want "legally, openly and freely" somewhere else.
The crossover between GC and MP is interesting and whispers and wanna-be-rode obvisouly speak for a fair number of customers but personnally I like the distinction.
Occasionally I enjoy girls dancing for me knowing that that is very likely all it will be and I agree with Veronika's definition of a dance, it has to involve contact.
"air-dance" is an oxymoron. Think of any sort of dancing from ballet, through waltzing, samba to simply clubbing it, dancing always involves contact. If you have ever tangoed it can be almost like making love while walking on a dance floor.
GC customers are often tired and grumpy after too much travel and too many meetings. Not tense enough to merit a real massage, not away long enough to visit a MP, the GC is in the middle.
My mindset is normally, "Please help me relax, listen or talk depending on my mood and use your wiles to make me forget my stresses for a while and help re-awaken the person I am when not burdened by the stresses of the day."
I find Holly Day's reply most intriguing. I have this friend who is an independent massage parlor masseuse. She received a call from an inquiring perspective. After placing the receiver down she exclaimed" All they want is good looks!" I told her, "Well that's the business you're in". Afterall , if you didn't think you fit the bill ,what are you doing in the business?
Strip joints are not known for their wholesome reputation, at least not compared to the ballet or other performance art. The clubs make money by stimulating sexual responses. Unfortunately this violates our hypocritical more- do not judge people favorably by their looks. Many men fall for this temptation. The fact they do serves as a self fulfillment prophecy to Holly Day to justify the stereotype against men. If you continue to work in an environment that simply reinforces your stereotypes of course you are going to end up hating men. That's a rotten deal especially if your living depends upon these men. But if you wanted to earn your money through a respectable venue then join the ballet.
sol_de_pr2
05-03-2003, 04:17 PM
Well, I love both strip clubs and regular dance performances and I must admit that both have the potential of stimulating sexual responses. The differences are that 1) stripping stimulates sexual response all the time, while other performance arts do not necessarily do so; 2) stripping is seen by the community as a whole in a far different light and is not generally "accepted" as other performance arts because of its supposed association with drugs, prostitution and other social "ills". Nevertheless, the fact that many strip clubs clients are otherwise respectable types as well as "the usual suspects" just adds to the hypocrisy of society in judging these kinds of establishments. I heard over the radio this afternoon that a college coach was fired or quit because he spent hundreds of dollars at a strip club. Ha!
As of earning money through a respectable venue believe me its hard to make a living dancing ballet, jazz or any other forms of dance. Usually he or she must not only dance in a company but also teach at a couple of schools, even do some coreography, etc. If society truly respects these forms of dance they should chip in more and help these people and leave strippers and their clients alone.
The_Oceans
05-05-2003, 09:13 AM
You know I hear a lot of complaints from my dancer friends, similar to the ones I've read here. I admit, I've probably been the cause of a complaint or two (fortunately, I'm the kind of guy you only need to say "no" to once 8)).
It would be *SO* much easier if guys realized that it's a lot simpler than it seems: If you want lap dances or to watch a nude woman dance, go to a strip club. If you're on the pull (British term for "picking up girls"), go to a regular nightclub or bar. If you want to get laid, go to a brothel.
I don't feel strongly one way or the other about extras, but I certainly wouldn't expect them as part of the standard SC experience (otherwise they wouldn't be "extra").
sol_de_pr2
05-05-2003, 12:05 PM
Good suggestions, but what if prostitution was completely illegal, like here in Puerto Rico?? It's not easy to pick up "respectable" girls here, they tend to be real snobs.
Symone
05-08-2003, 08:40 PM
That is the foulest crap I've ever read.Now I know my theory that, " guys are monkeys left behind durring evolution ", is correct.Them "damn dirty apes!"
Symone
05-08-2003, 08:52 PM
I do agree with Mr. Oceans'comment that the is a degree of separation or at least there should be.That is why a stripper is called a stripper and a prostitute is a prostitute.Now to the chicks that what to do "extras" then go ahead and do your stuff girl,but do it somewhere else.I don't mind dancin' and prancin',but I'm not going to go further and I let all the customers know up-front.I make a lot less $$$ but at least I can go home at night and feel good about myself.
Djoser
05-08-2003, 10:14 PM
ox·y·mo·ron : a combination of contradictory or incongruous words
Sorry, "air-dance" is NOT an oxymoron. The finest and most erotic dances I have ever seen came nowhere near the clutching fingers or twitching groins of tumescent customers. The vibrant, glowing skin of these superb women in motion was caressed only by that very air which seems to be held in such contempt by so many.
Alright, so due to the economic exigencies of our industry, these same women were then generally obliged to grind their divine asses into the crotches of various pot-bellied gentlemen. But though the recepients of these more intimate dances may have derived greater enjoyment, noone else in the club was enthralled by this sight, generally being more concerned with the next performer's interaction with the boring and mundane air above the stage.
Unfortunately it could often be observed that these so called "gentlemen" were often distressingly prone to grasping, probing, and lecherous molestation, and could therefore be described as being "gentlemen-gropers", which would, however, be an oxymoron.
azryale
05-19-2003, 12:48 AM
What I'm saying is that often a lady will compromise hersalf and her values to get something like stability or even worse pretended love and often less than those.
Don't be so quick to judge the ladies that make a concious decision to be more businesslike about it. The good ones bring a lot of business into the clubs and money that gets spread around.
After all. You can always say no.
I have no problem with prostitution, outside of the stripclub. I, personally do not choose to engage in that business, but more because of my own boundaries and my relationship with my husband, not because of a "holier than thou" attitude. That being said, I will be the first to judge, out loud and in her face, a female dancer that chooses to be one of the "girls that will" in the club that I work. The "business" that even the "good" ones bring in, is not money I am interested in, and the illusion that a girl can just say no is crap. you (whispers) may not actively seek extras, or may be polite about asking or what not , but trust this, not all "extras- seekers" are, and ladies (like me) are having their boundaries crossed and their safety compromised before they can say no(for instance a creep who had tried to get a hold of my hand and put it in his shorts did not understand what no meant until i had a finger (from the other hand) under his eye, but firmly planted in each eye socket)don't be so quick to judge? his only defense was "but (so-and-so)always does that"
whispers
05-19-2003, 02:26 AM
You know. With all the back and forth of opinions here nothing really changes.
You ladies don't police yourselves. Us customers sure as heck are not going to rise to the challenge of putting a stop to it. And management is not going to do anything about it if Law Enforcement is not on their butts.
Recenetly in Houston a couple of the more popular clubs for "extras" has recently started taxing the girls that are performing them outside of the high dollar champagne rooms so they can still get their cut.
I haven't looked in in a while because I've been busy across country from the Florida Keys but the last two months in the LA and San Diego area have proven to be not much different than anywhere else in the country. There is a lady asleep across the room from me right now that left the Spearment Rhino with me last night and last week yielded similair results at OZ.
I think it is easier in some places to get a ticket for JayWalking than it is for solicitation/prostitution.
It is no less "illegal" anywhere in the US (outside of some areas of Nevada) than it is anywhere else but is is simply not a priority to enforce those laws compared to all the other crime they must deal with. But the idea of "brothels" being readily available of accessable anywhere where a guy could just go there instead of a stripclub is simply ludicrous.
The simple fact of the matter is that sex is for sale in strip clubs all across America and thats the best place to look for it if you are in the market for it.
I understand you ladies that have to take the stand you do to try to self justify what you do. But the idea of it beinga "fantasy" simply does not hold up to the fact that the bulge your grinding against is a "reality" and the act of "dancing" while barely clothed and making money is just another manner of foreplay.