View Full Version : Feminist [email protected][email protected][email protected] Part 1
livenudegirlsunite
02-25-2004, 12:52 AM
Beautiful Woman I have not taken the time to read your entire post either because I really love Alysabeths site. I will go ahead and read the whole thing; but it is very long and you go off on the one thing that annoys the hell out of most strippers right off the bat. I hate it when customers try to get into my personal life just because they think that they have so much power over me with a stupid $20 bill as if I were a desparate beggar. I can understand why most strippers would call for package check. We deal with intrusive guys who treat us like prostitutes every day.
Ok - now I will take the time to read the whole post.
VenusGoddess
02-25-2004, 12:52 AM
I have printed up the 16 PAGES it takes to read your opinion (what is this, a f*&king Supreme Court brief?)...
Since you want someone to respond to your insanely long post, I will do so...just don't ever write something this long again and expect a long discussion...give me a few days and I'll get back to you.
Farrah_Holiday
02-25-2004, 12:53 AM
How do you know if I am a "troll" or not if you have not actually read my post? Not to mention that your verbal attacks on me have not been an actual conversation so you couldn't possibly know the first thing about me.
Even if you do disagree with what I have to say, how could that make me a "troll"? Is everyone that disagrees with you (I don't even think you know if that is the case or not since you don't seem to have actually read my post) a "troll"?
Wouldn't it be easier if you actually read my post and responded to my comments & questions rather than simply spewing insults in my direction that have absolutely nothing to do with anything that I have written or said??? I mean asking me if I desire a sex change operation was quite comical I must admit....thanks for the laugh on that one!!! Instead of making things up that have absolutely no basis in reality cracks me up.....and weren't you the one that claimed that I must be a mental
[email protected][email protected] :bedtime: :chillpill: :butthead:
Wow I thought I rambled on for hours without saying anything that can be clarified as making sense.
Now we have 2 that want to save the souls of all the dancers? WTF?!? I thought that was MY job!
You better set those two straight, Blade..
hey were you 2 on here a few weeks ago asking for some to help finance your sex change ??
You're welcome!! Glad to help
but hey if it wasn't you then I am sorry we get so many trolls that its really hard to keep track of you all
Actually I did read your copy and paste post..which really isn't your post since you transfered it from one website to another
Lilith
02-25-2004, 12:55 AM
Thank goodness you aren't using your 'Socratic Induction' in a courtroom as a lawyer. You'd be a very poor lawyer & your clients would be pissed at you for losing.
She isn't a lawyer, she's a sociologist. S-O-C-I-O-L-O-G-I-S-T. Silly person.
How can you be a trained sociologist without incorporating the ideas/philosophies which stem from religions? The two cannot be separated even if you decide not to subscribe to a certain religion. Even scientists look to religion...if for no other reason than to discount them.
I think you adequately answered that yourself. Not to totally copy American here, who thought of this first, but you suffer from a delusion that "opinion" is synonymous with "fact". For some love-inspired healing, please email me immediately.
Farrah_Holiday
02-25-2004, 12:55 AM
Reread your replies to me..because earlier you said that my reply agreed with your "post" and now you are saying that I didn't read it !! Make up your mind..
I read all 4 pages and all I have to say is WOW
livenudegirlsunite
02-25-2004, 01:17 AM
You already are doing things that normal girls would not do, which makes what you are doing abnormal. You are behaving behind closed doors (bars that limit their patrons) and doing things that most women would not do, that is why they assume you might be willing to go further. I don’t strip and I am not asked to do sexual favors for money, think about why that is.
Beautiful Woman you are a TOTAL TROLL
We are not girls. We are working WOMEN. Most women do not have the personality, confidence and good looks to do the job that we do. Strip clubs do not limit the patrons any more than any other business.
Solicitation to prostitution is illegal by the way. The reason that this illegal activity by patrons of the club is so prevalent probably has more to do with the fact that the club owners have tons of money and power to pay off politicians and cops. Instead of sending in under cover cops in to the clubs to bust the johns, they waste their time trying to bust the poor desparate working women because the club owners make way more money off of the prostitutes than the dancers. That money eventually goes into the pockets of the politicians and cops.
If the politicians and cops would focus on the johns, believe me, those types of patrons would go elsewhere for their prostitution fix and they would treat strippers like strippers.
Zabrina
02-25-2004, 04:28 AM
:sleep: :sleep:
BW, the fact that you spent such a long time writing what must be the longest post ever tells me that you have some emotional involvement here. Why else would you spend so much time on a message board for strippers, and only to start an arguement with a board full of them? Let's get to the real point. Your problem is you don't want your BF/husband to go to strip clubs. It makes you feel as if he's cheating. That's fine, tell him so. (And please spare him your entire book on the subject.) If you don't want him to come to the club I fully agree he should listen to you. But 4 pages of rants and lame old 'they don't respect you' arguements is not going to make us quit our jobs.
Veronika
02-25-2004, 05:18 AM
Wow, I renege on my *staying out of this* stance.
I am going to say that, as Katrine pointed out, if you are unfamiliar with Camille Paglia then trumping this up as a "feminist" discusion has no basis. You are not a feminist in the academic sense. If you want to do some homework from Hilegard von Bingen up to Susie Bright, then you have a valid stance with which to couch this "argument". Hell, let's make it easy... start with Mary Wollstonecraft to cut off a few hundred years of reading. Feminism has grown with the ages and demands of the time in which its current philosophy is phrased. Thus the 70s dogma that you use to argue your initial points is mothball worthy. The feminism of the current age is tending toward sex positive, male and female empowerment and boasts many sex-workers and erotic entertainers among its ranks. Funny that you aren't aware of that. There is also a sect of non-penetration angst, sex-hating people who are prone to misspelling words like "womyn" who call themselves feminists. But they are in the minority, confine themselves to places like Santa Cruz (sorry guys ;)), and are etymologically ignorant. They also are at least passingly conversant in current feminist thought.
Now if you want to approach this from the feminist viewpoint of "A feminist is a person who believes that there should be political, social, and economic equality of the sexes. A female stripper can be a feminist. A male coal miner can be a feminist." which Jay Zeno wrote and you agreed with, then you, by the nature of using "feminism" as the basis of your argument, negate your initial argument. We see a need and fill it, a basic capitalist function by which we benefit financially. How is that not feminist? Why do we not have the right to participate in this industry if we can be finacially rewarded? How is it any more morally corrupt than, say, participating in factory farming? Or munitions manufacturing? If a woman owns a store, finds her fortune in the world, by opening a sexually oriented store that provides goods for strippers as well as couples' toys, is she also not a feminist even though she is a successful (for sake of argument) sole proprieter; a designation that was previously little open to females?
If you base the stripper argument on the Social or Political equality issues, shouldn't you be lobbying for officials to treat woman in the erotic entertainment industry more fairly as they have the right to pursue this path (supply and demand and otherwise legal).
If you base the stripper argument on the Economic equality issue, shouldn't you be trying to make, say, a teacher or caregiver more valuable so that other needed options are attractive in our current economic climate?
Was Collette a feminist? George Sand? Lianne de Pugy? Coco Chanel? Sarah Bernhard? Mary Pickford? Veronica Franco? Mary Shelley? Aspasia? Lola Montez? Marlene Dietrich? ... Madonna?
Would any of these women have achieved what they did if they didn't use all of their wiles and gifts? Would they have achieved their relative freedom? Independence? The respect they received from their peers?
If you want to argue your points without the pretense and implied academic stance of trotting out "feminism" as a cover for you moralistic prose, fine. Otherwise, call a spade a spade and argue your points on their own merit. We would all have a lot more respect for you if you didn't insult our intelligence.
I strip. I take my clothes off for money as well as providing eroticism and companionship. For money. I am a stripper/dancer/ecdysiast/entertainer whatever as a profession. I also do many many other things and am not defined by just one. By which criteria do you decide the strength of my feminism? Does the fact that I strip weigh more in the "non-feminist" vein than does my volunteering on archeological digs pertaining to finding out more about women in gold rush encampments? Does the fact that I wore my cutest outfit to my Dot Com's NOC to convince someone to take the time to teach me FreeBSD in order to get a $15K/year raise take away my feminist points? Does the fact that I was smart enough to take the knowlege and run with it make a difference?
I use my wits, body, and mind to make money in a way that is strictly reserved for woman. How much more "WOMAN" power can you get than that?
aphrodite
02-25-2004, 07:01 AM
I know that, in responding, I'm giving you exactly what you want. You have obviously posted this here for attention, to attempt to piss people off, and to stir up trouble. The length of your post will prompt many to tell you to GET A LIFE…you obviously have WAY too much time on your hands to devote to analyzing a profession that really doesn't concern you. In any case, I’ve responded just to give my opinion on the illogical arguments you have put forth.
Let’s start with just one ridiculous claim: “the equivalent of men going to see strippers in a club is the same as women dating men.” This is absurd. Equivalency indicates EQUALNESS between two things, so, the equivalent of a male going to see female strippers is a female, going to see male strippers...which is equally as acceptable, and equally NOT CHEATING.
“when men go to strip clubs, they are cheating.” Sorry hon, but this is not the case. It may be easier for you to insult us by lumping us together with those “dirty whores” but the majority of dancers, including me, do not kiss customers, do not let them touch breasts, butt, or “vaginal area” to be sufficiently prim & proper for you (wouldn’t want to ‘de-humanize’ the pussy, LOL!) Do you think a man is cheating when he watches porn? I've always defined cheating as having any kind of intimate physical contact (kissing, sex, blow job, touching privates, etc). While a man could maybe find a stripper willing to do this, it is not the purpose of the strip club, and is certainly not protocol—it’s quite difficult, actually, to find dancers willing to do this, which is why escort services exist. If a man wants to cheat THAT badly, he will find a prostitute one way or another. Prostitutes existed LONG before strip clubs…think Jezebel, etc…I’m sure you could expand on that list much more successfully than I could, as you seem to have devoted so much of your time to acquiring knowledge on this subject of immoral/weak women.
“if men go to strip clubs, wouldn't it be a double standard if women were not allowed to equally indulge?” Women are allowed to equally indulge…I see women in my club all the time…and I have danced for them…and they LIKE it!! Not all women hate strippers…the ones who are confident in their relationships and their own sexuality love us for our eroticism, our beauty, and understand that we represent one aspect of the power of woman…not a weak, lowly creature, providing an object for men to abuse, but a “fantasy” that’s right, a “vision” to be admired, adored, and appreciated.
If you could ever see the way those eyes gaze up at you, you would drop all assertions that men “don’t respect” strippers. It is not a gaze of superiority, but one of submission…they are frozen by the beauty before them. Most of these customers would do whatever we asked them to. But it’s all part of the fantasy, of course. And women always have the option of going to a male strip club. That, not “dating,” is true EQUAL indulgence. The equivalent of a woman dating other men would be a man dating other women, and I can almost guarantee you that a strip club customer is NOT going to be dating one of the dancers, no matter how much he may want to.
“Further, men that go to strip clubs are trying desperately to avoid a painful relationship with their object of desire.” If they are trying to AVOID relationship, why are we asked for our number multiple times a night?
“Objectification due to emotional detachment and exposed vulnerabilities (nakedness) allow for unchallenged possession - thus ultimate feelings of manhood. The men MUST then look down upon the strippers since for them, they claim to possess, or have access to higher morals and values.” Wrong again. If they had “higher morals” they would not be in the club to begin with (according to your definition of morality.) Are the men propositioning us for sex more morally based than we are because they have their clothes on?
“If they placed themselves on the same level as the whores, they would become vulnerable which they have successfully avoided.” EXCUSE ME!!! This is utterly ridiculous. A WHORE is a prostitute. We are dancers. There is a HUGE difference.
“You already are doing things that normal girls would not do, which makes what you are doing abnormal.” How sad that our world has created a situation where nudity is considered ABNORMAL. Nakedness is our natural state. We were born naked. The beautiful, natural, human body has been condemned so far that anyone willing to be comfortable in their own skin is considered “abnormal.” If you think back to the beginning of time, when Adam and Eve were naked in the garden of Eden, that was when true paradise existed. It was only when they became ashamed of their nakedness that Eden was lost. It’s clothing that is abnormal…nudity is natural, our NORMAL state, no matter how much it has been socially condemned.
“The Chef doesn’t sell himself – he sells food that he prepared, which means he has something left over to give his wife at the end of the day. Something that is his and hers only which no one else can have. Anyone can have a stripper. Anyone can have a Chef’s food but not anyone can have the Chef. His wife doesn’t get the “leftovers.”” I sell a fantasy, the privilege to view my body in motion, the visual art of striptease. I DO NOT SELL MYSELF—If this was the case, I would be having sex for money, and, once again, in case this hadn’t sunk in yet, we are dancers, NOT PROSTITUTES. I sell my dance, my eroticism, a visual stimulation, the illusion that he might, by some rare chance, be able to have me. My body is mine. At the end of the day, they have jerk-off material, i have the contents of their wallets…and my body is still completely intact, and, for the most part, untouched. Not anyone can have a stripper…yes, anyone with money can look at her, naked, but very few, actually, can HAVE her. And the ones who do “have” her, most likely are not paying for it! Anyone can view my art, but not anyone can have me.
You repeatedly say in your post that we are not respected, are looked down upon. This made me laugh, it is just foolish…have you been to a strip club lately? Do me a favor...go to a club and sit stage-side. When the dancer comes on, watch the men…the adoration and desire in their eyes…the way they will throw money if she so much as acknowledges his presence among the other customers…when you see the way they look at the girls on stage, you will see that it is not the gaze of disrespect…it is the opposite. I NEVER feel vulnerable onstage. When I am naked, dancing free, the music pulsing through my body, and others look on, the men hungry to drink every little drop of that beautiful energy, begging with their eyes for me to even notice them, I feel empowered and strong, it's a rush for me…maybe I will catch your eye, for a second, and see another, less common, but equally easy to read gaze…it is the glare of a bitter woman who, as much as she hates it - oddly enough- cannot rip her eyes away from the sight before her…the woman who, at the very core of herself, whether she can admit it or not, would give anything to be in my 7 inch heels…but for whatever reason- her lack of self-confidence, level of attractiveness, conformity to societal definitions of “normalcy,” etc, etc…will never feel the high of being worshipped onstage, as a fantasy, yes, but all the same, a sexual goddess.
And after you leave, men will grab your ass on the street, whistle, yell indecencies...you endure these things for free, while we go home with, more than most women can make in a month at low-respect jobs. They have to slave away for it…all I have to do is dance, be admired, continually complimented, and have fun talking to/hanging out with men (some of us actually ENJOY their presence, LOL)- all of which I happen to love.
Thank you for providing me with an excuse to procrastinate…I have a paper due at 9am, time to get on with more serious work…hope you’re happy with all the attention this has gotten you…I truly feel pity for the attention deprived.
:) :puckerup: :)
doc-catfish
02-25-2004, 09:18 AM
Wouldn't it be easier if you actually read my post and responded to my comments & questions rather than simply spewing insults in my direction that have absolutely nothing to do with anything that I have written or said???
Considering that...
...your "post" is about the length of Crime & Punishment...
...and since you failed to use the quote feature...
http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/YaBBImages/quote2.gif
This would be the above icon in the bottom row of the YABBC tag menu, second from the right)
...therefore it is hard to tell what is Alysabeth's commentary and what is yours, (nobody is going to remember this << >> crap after about twelve paragraphs). Yes, you CAN go back and edit it...
... and since posting your Russian novela, you've been doing nothing but spewing insults yourself, the answer is no. If you're not going to give others the consideration of your civility here, then you shouldn't expect any in return.
I'm sure that an in depth discussion on the ethical whatnots of the stripping industry will likely rub a few gals here the wrong way (you're not the first person to come in here with some holier than thou "white knight" complex you know), BUT if you want to keep your commentary noncondemning, I'm certain that we have more than a few ladies here that will be happy to enlighten you. Clearing up misunderstandings about strippers to the outside world is one of the fundamental purposes of this site after all.
Blade
02-25-2004, 09:49 AM
Ok I have finally read all the parts to this post and have gone to Alysabeth's website(her work makes sense to me) and I will now ask you questions.
"So the equivalent of men going to see strippers in a club is the same as women dating men (he is visually stimulated while she is emotionally stimulated)."How do you get emotional stimulation out of taking a dollar from a guy sitting stageside?The stimulation I see dancers recieving on a nightly basis is FINANCIAL, not emotional.
"Not to mention that by suggesting that women should have no problem with men going to strip clubs, you are saying that women are 'rewarded' by men going to those clubs b/c then he will not cheat. " MOST,and I repeat, MOST men who go to strip clubs go home to their wives or girlfriends after the bar closes. When I go to stripclubs WITHOUT my wife I tend to come home ready to have some form of sexual relationship with her(it may be sex or it may actually just be cuddling).
"Why are you trying to sabotage the goal of internal rewards that are brought about by a decent and healthy relationship? Aren't external rewards interfering with the relationship's earned benefits? If he already had internal benefits, he wouldn't need to be satisfied externally." I think you answer your own question there...Of course my wife and I must not have a "decent and healthy relationship" because not only is she a dancer and I a dj,but she allows me to go to stripclubs in general.
I could go on and on pointing out the discrepancies that I found in your rather long winded post,but I won't.I'll instead leave you with the same answer I give EVERYONE who says dancers are degrading themselves for money(because thats what I got out of your post). Being a dancer gives the woman POWER, she commands respect when she is on stage, men view her as more than a woman,she has in sense become their fantasy made flesh. As she dances for their dollars she has reversed the power struggle where it is a man has the power, women are the weaker sex. Men know they aren't allowed to touch and yet they sometimes spend their entire paycheck at the sc.Making woman the strong one and man the weaker sex.I know for a fact that at least 95% of these women aren't looking to be "emotionally stimulated" when they are dancing for my dollar, they are looking to(and thinking about) pay the rent, car payment etc....
"Farrah, Vanilla Dog, Katrina and I all on one thread. It could get better. Bridgette hasn't seen this yet. It's almost funny how they know not what they have brought down upon them."
For some reason this has me scared right down to the depths of my soul, and is the reason I cut my responses short....I don't want to take their fun away!
polecat
02-25-2004, 10:29 AM
I told myself I'd steer clear of this thread, but couldn't resist any longer from the various flying discussion here. And yes, I did wade through the novel-sized thread in it's entirety and not altogether sure what the purpose of the original postings is meant to serve... other than a general ideology that exposing one's body is somehow degrading or objectifying..
That being said- as a man, I can put on a pair of long shorts, shoes and go outside and mow my lawn without much ado. Neighbor's will wave hello. The families surrounding about will gather their children into their cars without any notice. All is well. It's a sunny California day and it's considered socially tolerable. A male body-building competition on TV can be flipped by with a man wearing nothing more than a speedo and flexing for the camera, and there isn't some incessant rush to cover the eyes of any children present.
By contrast, a woman wearing a two-piece bathing suit outside may inspire discomfort. Home owner's associations may create limits to where women can wear bathing attire and parents might feel it inappropriate for front yard display. Television shows like Bay Watch get higher ratings and generate discussion based on how many scantily clad women are present, etc.etc. Starting to see the double-standard?
Obviously, this is "all good" as anyone clever enough to recognize this can therefore capitalize on this. Opinions such as Beautiful Woman's perpetuate the double-standard and hold the equality of women at bay by continuing the pathos that dictates the human form is considered objectifying and sexual, but only on a gender discrimated basis. True, if you travel overseas to Europe, or other locales where human nudity is a bit more liberal, "stripclubs" take on a whole different form and the money being made for the same offerings in the US is totally different.
Moreover, what BW's standpoint is solely based upon is that women somehow are missing natural and biological reactions to physical form. This is the biggest sociological myth ever created. Only through societal conditioning has this myth stood to last as long as it has. This is a role that has been inflicted upon women, namely by men, throughout history. These are, in a backwards male kinda-way, the very values Alysabeth’s site is trying to dispell. The same male-created doctrines that defined that women should stay virgins until marriage, shouldn't hold public offices, nor have the right to vote also dictate that it isn't "proper" for a woman to expose her body, nor have the natural arousal at seeing physical form. Women are finally becoming empowered enough to dispell both of these myths, but there is still a very, very long way to go.
I swear I am going to write a book someday entitled, "Men are from Earth, Women are from Earth- deal with it."... founded on the same principles that Alysabeth has tried to introduce. The more of this gap that we try to artificially place between men and women, the longer it will take for full equality to be realized. For now, it's created a viable source of good income, but it IS evolving into much more as forward progress in our society improves.
Some direct rebuttals in relation to all that has been said above:
So the equivalent of men going to see strippers in a club is the same as women dating men (he is visually stimulated while she is emotionally stimulated). So when you look at this from a female perspective, when men go to strip clubs, they are cheating.
This is, again, using a different measuring stick based on gender. As has already been mentioned, more and more women are attending stripclubs as customers... and obtaining similar entertainment from such activity. It is downright sexist to suggest the kind of fulfilment a woman receives from a date is somehow equivalent to the fulfillment a man receives from viewing an attractive woman.
What is objectionable about strip clubs, then, is its abusive and degrading portrayal of females and female sexuality, not its sexual content or explicitness. Strip clubs tell lies about women and promote destructive behaviors by providing a source of defense mechanisms.
Females and female sexuality is being portrayed the same as male and male sexuality. Physical, provocative, exhibitive and liberal. There are no "lies" being told about women, but alternatively truths. Because we consider it sociologically deplorable for women to be sexual animals (after all, that role is set aside specifically for men, right?), it's more of an unveiling that it's okay for women to be proud of themselves, their form, and receive empowerment for such.
Why not have a bar where men can go for great conversation with pretty women where they can be assured 5 minutes of great conversation or having a dance partner (fully clothed) if they pay for it? Can't women be visually appealing in a sexy outfit?
Obviously you've never heard of "gown" clubs. You also haven't spent any time at all reading this forum that you decided to just drop your 4-flusher turd upon. The obvious sign of a troll is someone that with their first few posts are given without any form of initiation to the content provided therein. There are NUMEROUS threads here concerning the upper-upper scale clubs, gown-clubs and the incredible difficulty of being hired at them. These "strippers" are usually the highest paid in the nation (if not world) and have to be a cut above on all fronts. The most beautiful, the most talented, the most educated and charismatic. As these fetch the highest dollar from men, wouldn't this completely blow all your assumptions out of the water? If the single most desirable (and highest priced) experience is indeed the conversationalists and non-nude/non-stripping gown-club women, this provides solid proof of Alysabeth's fundamental concepts.
If a man can get a female to expose herself, then he doesn't have to expose himself, which is a form of abuse.
Last quote (for now.. I'm starting my own novel sized reply!)- It's even worse abuse for a male (or female) to condemn a woman for simply exposing her body. It's dehumanizing and sexist to suggest it's inappropriate behavior for one to keep themselves "underwraps" simply due to a twisted societal identity... and role "gifted" to them by pressures that are unnatural.
Ok, now I am getting sucked in,....
BW you want me to read your whole post!? ok whatever, here goes......
(to everyone else; sorry)
...According to what you've written, you seem to feel that women should not change the minds of men but men should work to change the minds of women...
I don't feel this is accurate. I think it was an example, but it works both ways. Many dancers SO's don't like them dancing, we have to try and convince them that it is ok and they have nothing to fear. It is not nice to put such limits on your partner. My husband does many things I do not agree with. I have no right to stop him from such activity. The only thing I ask him to not do is be sexual with another female. And I do belive I have a right to that. Before we got married we made lines that equaled cheating and not cheating.
<<...is that the girls in the magazines and the clubs are no real threat to your relationship.>>
..I am not sure ... how it would not directly involve or possibly be a threat toward others?
Because he is with "you", he comes home to "you". He can't even talk to a picture or a video, even webcams he generally can't meet in real life....
...it seems obvious that men feel some sort of connection when they are visually stimulated. At the same time, women tend to feel their connections when they are emotionally stimulated...
So? Most of the connection is in the groin. Sex and Love are diffrent things, you can have sex without love and love without sex.
..women see porno and strip clubs as "no big deal" because they have a hard time understanding why men get so excited over them...
I totally get porn. I like porn more then my husband. Beutiful naked women stimulate me. But porn is still no big deal. I don't mind my husband getting lap dances from other women, he is still coming home with me at the end of the night.
....suppose a man had $50 to spend on his desires so he went out and bought an electric screwdriver b/c he loves tools. If he then bought his wife an electric screwdriver with the $50 that she could spend on her desires she most likely would be unhappy. She most likely wouldn't dislike the screwdriver and would likely use it and even need it in the future (everyone uses a screwdriver at one point or another) but if she could choose how to spend the money based on her desires she most likely would buy something like Estee Lauder make-up instead.
Actually I would be happy if my husband bought me a $50 tool. Prefrably one of those battery operated multi-screwdriver/drill ones. Those are cool. That would make taking my computer apart much easier and the cordless drill feature would make building things in general much better. I would not buy makeup. I do not like makeup, I only wear it at work, only because I have to. Yeah, sure I probably wouldnt go buy a screwdriver if given $50. I would save the money, but if told to buy something, I would probably buy one of those littermaid self-cleaning cat boxes. That would make my husband and I both happy as I wouldnt have to clean the box twice a day and he couldnt smell it anymore, at least not really.
Also I don't see how this has anything to do with porn....?
..If a women dated other men, would that be OK if she didn't have sex with him? .... So, if men go to strip clubs, wouldn't it be a double standard if women were not allowed to equally indulge?...
I have lots of male friends. I go and see them, and talk with them, and go places with them. According to your thoery I am cheating. Should I cease to have male friends? Should I only talk with females?
If it is 'honest' then how is it also a fantasy?
We sell a fantasy. We do not sell sex. We sell the fantasy of sex. Sex is mostly in your brain anyway, male or female. Are books bad because they take you to a diffrent world? What about movies? Dreams?
If they placed themselves on the same level as the whores, they would become vulnerable which they have successfully avoided. Therefore, strippers are props, visual aides, objects, and symbols used for a ritual act for the man to act out.
why are you interchanging "strippers" and "whores" here? Or are you trying to say that they don't see "whores" and we are the replacements?
...and if strip clubs were actually beneficial then men couldn't become addicted to them. ...
How is somthing addictive always bad? Caffine is addictive, but sometimes it is good. The internet is addicive but are all of the people reading this doing something bad?
Comfort (like alcohol and drugs can bring people) does not equal a solution.
what about prozac? zanx? wellbutrin? I don't agree with them, but a lot of people can't function without them.
<<When a customer gets to know a stripper and then suddenly tells her that he's grown to think too highly of her to get dances, it doesn't flatter or touch her. That customer immediately becomes a total disappointment,>>
he above isn’t respecting her “too much” because before there was NO respect to begin with.
IMO, when a guy uses a line like that, it is a copout. He is really saying "i dont have enough money to buy any more dances from you, will you please give me something for free? I complimented you, dosn't that mean something to you?.... I have been told by so many people that to move to the next leval I need to respect her, well I told her that, why won't she sleep with me?" whatever. personally I dont care if he respects me or not, thats why its a dissapointment, at work trade cash for respect? no thanks.
<<She can tell you're talking about her, and turning slightly away and saying things about her to your friends under your breath won't hide what you're doing.>>
Strippers are just an exhibit because that is the entire point of them.
Yeah, we are too look at. But if you are at the zoo and you don't like snakes, why are you in the reptile exibit? Why not go look at the monkeys or somthing? If you think we are too skinnny or too fat, or too blonde, or have too many tatoos, or too short, too tall, whatever. Don't make it so we can hear your comments. Keep them to yourselves. Find a girl you like, and get a dance from her. Thats what I think she was trying to say.
Ok, thats what I have to say about part 1. Now I will take a brake before wading through part 2.....
Hello Lena!!
Since you haven't even read what I have written then how can you say that I have a lack of rational debate? If you were to actually read my postings and still had that opinion then it would be a different matter. If you don't want to read them then that is fine. However, when you are guessing at what my logic must be and then make a judgement call based on your guess then that is uncool.
Well I did read the first two posts of it, and that was more than enough to conclude that you are not overly fond of logic, and too emotionally involved in the topic to have a good discussion anyways. So, again, I'm sorry that the topic is consuming you so. I disagree with you, but I am not going to become engaged in your angst. You are welcome to think and beleive whatever you want. When your emotions pass, if you still want to have a conversation, I will.
To Katrine and Lillith and other scholars...
I just finished reading Webers work about the protestant work ethic. Maybe us strippers have just trumped "tradition" and evolved to a higher level of capitalism. My poor soc proffessor is going to hate this LOL
Lena
Beautiful Woman
02-25-2004, 11:11 AM
Thank you for reading what I have written before giving me a reply.
Beautiful Woman I have not taken the time to read your entire post either because I really love Alysabeths site. I will go ahead and read the whole thing; but it is very long and you go off on the one thing that annoys the hell out of most strippers right off the bat. I hate it when customers try to get into my personal life just because they think that they have so much power over me with a stupid $20 bill as if I were a desparate beggar. I can understand why most strippers would call for package check. We deal with intrusive guys who treat us like prostitutes every day.
Ok - now I will take the time to read the whole post.
Beautiful Woman
02-25-2004, 11:16 AM
Thank you!!
I have printed up the 16 PAGES it takes to read your opinion (what is this, a f*&king Supreme Court brief?)...
Since you want someone to respond to your insanely long post, I will do so...just don't ever write something this long again and expect a long discussion...give me a few days and I'll get back to you.
Beautiful Woman
02-25-2004, 11:25 AM
Wow that really sucks. Do most clubs have problems with prostitution? I know that in Orlando they busted a club called Rachel's for this and the Orlando Sentinel newspaper listed all of the Johns that spent over a certain dollar amount on prostitution.
You already are doing things that normal girls would not do, which makes what you are doing abnormal. You are behaving behind closed doors (bars that limit their patrons) and doing things that most women would not do, that is why they assume you might be willing to go further. I don’t strip and I am not asked to do sexual favors for money, think about why that is.
Beautiful Woman you are a TOTAL TROLL
We are not girls. We are working WOMEN. Most women do not have the personality, confidence and good looks to do the job that we do. Strip clubs do not limit the patrons any more than any other business.
Solicitation to prostitution is illegal by the way. The reason that this illegal activity by patrons of the club is so prevalent probably has more to do with the fact that the club owners have tons of money and power to pay off politicians and cops. Instead of sending in under cover cops in to the clubs to bust the johns, they waste their time trying to bust the poor desparate working women because the club owners make way more money off of the prostitutes than the dancers. That money eventually goes into the pockets of the politicians and cops.
If the politicians and cops would focus on the johns, believe me, those types of patrons would go elsewhere for their prostitution fix and they would treat strippers like strippers.
Ca$h,
If that is you then you are so pretty. Do you only want cash from men or do you also want to know the real them?
Susan
Funny thing is the title of the thread say's Feminist Stripper PART ONE :faint:
Seraya.
if this is only part 1 .....omg ...i don't think we have enough space here for part 2,3,4 and 5 :-X :-X :bedtime: :curlers: :juggle:
ok honey i'm sorry i was not on earlier to answer your questions yes dear at the moment i'm only seaking CA$H .....Ialready have a husband so therefore i have no interest in knowing anyone .....do you know anyone giving away CA$H..give them my number its 1800 MAKEMERICH
Katrine
02-25-2004, 12:50 PM
**Kat bows down to Lilith, Cash, Blade, Doc...etc, etc. etc**
Maybe we are all a bit tired of this topic, but I believe that the problem with your arguments Beautiful, is that they are unresearched, naive, and not well thought out.
I do not see any critial reasoning presented above, thus I cannot really retort. If you heard about a bust in Orlando and are curious about it, why not research the public records to find out about the scale of prostitution that was discovered in that club?
Also...the poor Socratic logic was a play on your poor logic...but I guess you missed that one????
Last question since I have to go to my demeaning/degrading job stealing away your man...how old are you? I would understand if you are under 21, just starting college, and are "learning" about the world, but your principles seem to be those of a child.....
Kind regards...Katrina Ad Hominem
Juliette_deSade
02-25-2004, 02:19 PM
Paglia? Oh no. NOT PAGLIA!!!
It's not so subversive to post this. I am not cynicle in the least and that is why I don't mind. I DO see how many posters may find this asinine. Steeling ourselves is what we do, and we speak our minds.
It was rather assuming to think that we would READ all of that. Veronika is right in saying that these ideals are archaic and moot when applied to OUR modern society.
It's archaic to NOT be a feminist stripper, especially on Stripperweb.
JDS
Veronika
02-25-2004, 05:21 PM
And speaking of Paglia, she's a feminist writer who has written for Playboy and Esquire... you know evil men's magazines. The gaps are being bridged, hallaluja! And Blade (was it you who said this? If not.. apologies) "Men are from Earth, Women are from Earth... deal!" should be written. Oh yes!
vanilla_dog
02-25-2004, 07:35 PM
http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/index.php/stripperweb/off-topic/chat/t1527.html
MotherDaisy
02-25-2004, 07:40 PM
Hey American, get out of my country!!! And off my favorite site to discuss the work I am proud to do. Stop trying to sell your crazy here.
The truth is that we are strong, independent women and we threaten you. This whole thread, beginning to end, makes me want to scream.
AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!
Blade
02-25-2004, 11:07 PM
And Blade (was it you who said this? If not.. apologies) "Men are from Earth, Women are from Earth... deal!" should be written. Oh yes!
Unfortunately I can not tell a lie it was Polecat who came up with those words to live by, not I.
But the fact that you were thinking of me....makes me feel "loved" lol!
AMERICAN
02-25-2004, 11:17 PM
Just in response to comments, in general, it is very obvious that the women on here really do not like men at all and have no respect for human life, in general (male or female). They feel inferior to men, and they have found a way to receive POWER and CONTROL, through means of a very deceptive and manipulative way. I agree that women have been mistreated for way too long, but using sex and bodies to gain power actually has just the opposite effect of what you are trying to achieve. But again, I realize that may be what some of you are trying to do.....trying to be the powerful one and willing to sell your bodies to accomplish that. You will only gain the "respect" of men who don't respect women to begin with (which of course is not respect at all). Someone said on here that the look in a man's eyes is respect. What kind of men have you been around anyway? You definitely need to get out and see the world and experience a different quality of man. But then I read someone else's comment that men aren't looking at strippers respectfully, rather they know they are in the submissive role when watching a stripper....and that in itself is another reason why women strip. It is a power play. It's the 'I'm tired of being treated as a second class citizen, so let's use men any way we can to dominate and control him' theory. I guess it's definitely working for some of you. But you will never experience the kind of relationship that comes with complete faithfulness...mind, body and soul of a man. That is something you will never experience. You probably don't even think it's possible. Most here have probably been raised in very male-dominated homes.....or raised around men who were very domineering. This is the way to get back at them, I suppose!!?? Again, I guess you think it's working for you. But you have no idea what you're settling for. Do you have any idea what it feels like to look into a man's eyes and not see any other woman but yourself in his eyes? I do. And girls, that is power....the power that is not perverted.....just absolutely awesome.
Blade
02-25-2004, 11:45 PM
I'm curious to know what the married dancers have to say about this....
I know for a fact that my wife has the kind of relationship that involves"complete faithfulness"
When we look into each others eyes there is no one else reflected, just ourselves.
Oh what CRAP... two trolls at once??? Who woulda thunk it?
:butthead: You two, (or the same person) need to get a life. Go preach somewhere else.
What are you tryingto accomplish coming here??? LOL You hate strippers or what they do? Why not flee as far away as you can?
:troll:
VenusGoddess
02-26-2004, 12:53 AM
Just in response to comments, in general, it is very obvious that the women on here really do not like men at all and have no respect for human life, in general (male or female). They feel inferior to men, and they have found a way to receive POWER and CONTROL, through means of a very deceptive and manipulative way. I agree that women have been mistreated for way too long, but using sex and bodies to gain power actually has just the opposite effect of what you are trying to achieve. But again, I realize that may be what some of you are trying to do.....trying to be the powerful one and willing to sell your bodies to accomplish that. You will only gain the "respect" of men who don't respect women to begin with (which of course is not respect at all). Someone said on here that the look in a man's eyes is respect. What kind of men have you been around anyway? You definitely need to get out and see the world and experience a different quality of man. But then I read someone else's comment that men aren't looking at strippers respectfully, rather they know they are in the submissive role when watching a stripper....and that in itself is another reason why women strip. It is a power play. It's the 'I'm tired of being treated as a second class citizen, so let's use men any way we can to dominate and control him' theory. I guess it's definitely working for some of you. But you will never experience the kind of relationship that comes with complete faithfulness...mind, body and soul of a man. That is something you will never experience. You probably don't even think it's possible. Most here have probably been raised in very male-dominated homes.....or raised around men who were very domineering. This is the way to get back at them, I suppose!!?? Again, I guess you think it's working for you. But you have no idea what you're settling for. Do you have any idea what it feels like to look into a man's eyes and not see any other woman but yourself in his eyes? I do. And girls, that is power....the power that is not perverted.....just absolutely awesome.
First of all...I am engaged to a man that I have a very honest, trusting, loving, respecting, and passionate relationship with. Who are you to make the assumption that because I work as a stripper that it makes me "incapable" of having a meaningful relationship? Is it because you are the one lacking in that department? Are you down on strippers because your SO took off with one? Because you are just a fat, lazy slob that just cannot get over your jealousy of strippers? You cannot understand why your SO wants to spend time with people who don't treat him like a child? Maybe you grew up in a household where your parents constantly told you that you were nothing and that you would never find true love. I feel sorry for the fact that you are so closed minded and unwilling to accept that some strippers are empowered women and know how to use their power to make money. It may not be in the profession of your choice...but that does not make us any less worthy of respect than you. We work hard for our money...a lot of us have children...and stripping is a way that we can work 2-3 nights per week and walk home with more money than most people do in a month...enabling us to spend the days with the most important people in our lives.
I have the distinct feeling:
1. You and BW are one and the same...this is the last time I am going to bother with this post. It is obvious that you are a troll and therefore deserve NO MORE of my time or thought.
2. Your SO frequents strip clubs and you just cannot get over your insecurities that he may "take off with a stripper". If you are so insecure with your place in your man's life...may I suggest that you get up off your fat, lazy ass...get into shape...buy some nice lingerie...learn how to dance...and then learn how to please your man. This way...he'll be more likely to stay at home with you instead of spending your money on me at my club. Of course...even with all of that, it may be a long shot if you talk down to him (as I am sure that you do) as much as you talk down to a bunch of people you do not know.
End of discussion.
Lilith
02-26-2004, 01:46 AM
I seriously question the supposed superiority (nay, mental stability) of one who feels the need to visit, register at and then bombard the members of a message board with hate-filled posts. Someone quite clearly has too little validity in their lives coupled with an overabundance of free time. Your posts are top-full of prejudice, naive assumptions and pompous generalizations- in short, light on debateable material yet full of hot air.
Considering that your purpose is deliberately malicious and continued presence without point, I am reporting you to the Administration. By morning you will likely be naught but another speed bump on the highway that is StripperWeb. One sincerely hopes that you eventually find a point to life beyond that of unleashing spite upon random people, and cannot help but point out that the truly happy would have no such desire.
In other words, I've had enough of this pose. You are insecure, unhappy, jealous and in need of something to boost your self-esteem. Don't think for a moment that you've fooled us into concluding different.
jagged
02-26-2004, 07:29 AM
Whoever you are BW/American/whatever, you can read into stripping a whole lot of things, and you certainly won't be the first to do so, but at the end of the day for most of us, it's just our job. Nothing more, nothing less. There is a market for strippers because men like naked women. And they like talking to pretty women in a fantasy environment. And they are willing to pay for it. That's pretty much all there is to it. Our jobs have very little to do with who any of us are as people or any insecurities or personal problems or relationship problems we might have. I'm pretty damn well-adjusted if I do say so myself. But it's really beside the point. You've failed to make the distinction between the fantasy women we "play" in a club, and the real women we are all the time. We don't need to be saved, we're not in need of professional help. We're just regular people with a controversial job.
AMERICAN
02-26-2004, 08:37 AM
I realize that you girls don't see between your lines....but you are scared to death to lose your man if you don't use your body to keep him. Boy, that would be awful to have a marriage/relationship like that!
And it's also kind of amusing that you think I am fat, ugly, jealous, etc., etc., etc.......I've seen the pictures of the women on here so far, and not to be cocky or conceited, but just stating the truth, I am more attractive and have a better body than anyone on here. I used to be insecure and need attention from others and get off on "turning on" strangers.....but I've grown up!!
And you think that that is a good thing that the only way you can make money is to sell your body?! Is that what you want someone to love you for and remember you for when you pass for this earth? Simply a body!? That's sad you have set such low standards for yourself.
AMERICAN
02-26-2004, 08:44 AM
And to reply to this DJ guy, do you really think that your wife only thinks of you when she makes love to you? Trust me, she doesn't....not when she pollutes her mind with images and pictures of other men and women. She has to use images of other people to keep up her attraction to you. And in return....you are doing the same to her. You don't love her and aren't attracted to her when you make love to your wife......your mind wanders and fantasizes about every other woman you have objectified in your mind that day.
And I say this again because I've been where you are and know more than you think I do. You guys and gals are addicted to the high of sexuality. You have no clue what love is.
Blade
02-26-2004, 10:12 AM
And to reply to this DJ guy, do you really think that your wife only thinks of you when she makes love to you? Trust me, she doesn't....not when she pollutes her mind with images and pictures of other men and women. She has to use images of other people to keep up her attraction to you. And in return....you are doing the same to her. You don't love her and aren't attracted to her when you make love to your wife......your mind wanders and fantasizes about every other woman you have objectified in your mind that day.
And I say this again because I've been where you are and know more than you think I do. You guys and gals are addicted to the high of sexuality. You have no clue what love is.
Before I respond to this drivel with the venom it deserves allow me to apologize to everyone who may read this in advance. I'm sorry that my intelligent response has generated nothing but a personal attack from American, I'm sorry that you all were subjected to their p.o.v., most of all I'm sorry that I cannot reach through my computer screen and smack the living crap outta this fool!
Now to business....
"And to reply to this DJ guy, do you really think that your wife only thinks of you when she makes love to you? Trust me, she doesn't....not when she pollutes her mind with images and pictures of other men and women. "
I suppose that in the world you come from you have the ability to read minds?You sit on your throne preaching about this and that and then have the nerve to tell me that you know what my wife is thinking when we make love?2 words...WAKE UP!Just because YOU need to think about someone other than your S.O. when you have sex does not mean everyone does. Images of men and women in risque, or blatantly sexual poses can be found EVERYWHERE from newspaper ads to the nightly news, does this mean we as a society are thinking of other things(persons,places etc) when we make love to our wives,husbands, boyfriends or girlfriends?No!
"And in return....you are doing the same to her. You don't love her and aren't attracted to her when you make love to your wife......your mind wanders and fantasizes about every other woman you have objectified in your mind that day. "
Now you done did piss me off! HOW DARE YOU IMPLY THAT BECAUSE I WORK IN THE INDUSTRY I DON'T LOVE MY WIFE!First of all ya fuckin whackjob you haven't got a bloody clue what goes through my blasted head at anytime during my waking hours, do not make assumptions that you know me or can speak for me, or that our situations are even refuckingmotely close.
As far as objectifying women goes....seeing a dancer performing her J-O-B in no way shape or form turns me on, nor do I see them as an object.They are co-workers, actually since I am paid by the dancers they are bosses,and as bosses/co-workers they get the same amount of respect I give to any woman(be they dancers,my mom,my sister,my daughters,etc...)
"And I say this again because I've been where you are and know more than you think I do. You guys and gals are addicted to the high of sexuality. You have no clue what love is."
We have no clue what love is?That is one of the most asinine comments you have made yet.I'm getting the feeling that you are divorced,alone and VERY bitter.Don't despair there is help for you all you need to do is pick up the phone and call your local mental health service office. Then a kind person will help you to get over whatever it is you feel is bothering you.
When I started this response my intention was to simply tear you a new asshole but as I was typing I realized just how pathetic you really are.You live your life just to put others down.....that makes you the lowest form of human life there is.
If you were to respond to ANY of these posts without being derogatory or without seeking to further arguements I'm sure you would recieve some small measure of respect, but since I'm sure you are chomping at the bit to jump all over my response to you (I did mention I have daughters)let me leave you with this warning....Do be smart and leave it alone, I can and will bump heads all day long with you because I love a GOOD arguement(notice I said GOOD)
SCGirl
02-26-2004, 10:26 AM
Just in response to comments, in general, it is very obvious that the women on here really do not like men at all and have no respect for human life, in general (male or female). They feel inferior to men, and they have found a way to receive POWER and CONTROL, through means of a very deceptive and manipulative way. [Blah, blah,blah....you get the point.....blah, blah,blah....] Do you have any idea what it feels like to look into a man's eyes and not see any other woman but yourself in his eyes? I do. And girls, that is power....the power that is not perverted.....just absolutely awesome.
First of all....holy shit! where the hell did all of this crap come from? How the hell did I miss this last night?!
Second....AMERICAN....be DAMN careful about who you're insulting here!!!!! You don't know a goddamn thing about me so don't you DARE make flaming accusations and absurd generalizations based on a few idiots you may or may NOT know in your own life. I started reading this whole, long, absurd, inane, idiotic, boring, obviously inflamatory post thinking that there would be no WAY anyone would drag me into this thing. But you went way too damn far! I do like men--most of my friends are male--girls can be very catty and competitive. And you can bet for DAMN sure I have more respect for human life *and each and every person's individual RIGHTS* than you will ever know in your sheltered and pathetic life. Guess what?! I have never been in a male dominated relationship....I was the "head" of my household. So that kinda fucks up you're psychotic theory huh? Aww poor baby. I don't want power and control because I feel that I am inferior (hell, I GET power and control because THEY are inferior--lol! hahaha). And I have never used deceit or manipulation in my LIFE. And yeah, I've been with a man who only has eyes for me. So what?! You think that because you are a faithful man you are A) the only one and B) deserve a big fucking pat on the back?! Umm...no...but thanks for asking. You are NOT the only one--there are a lot of faithful men out there. And you don't deserve a damn thing for doing what a good human being is SUPPOSED to do!!! My boyfriend doesn't get kudos for taking out the garbage or walking the dog cuz he's supposed to do that...you're in the same damn boat buddy. Maybe I should let HIM post and give you a piece of HIS mind!
As for the rest of this crap....don't get me started! BW, be very careful, you're treading on very thin ice. If you thought that this was a website for those stereotypical, gossipy, bitchy, money grubbing, uneducated, stippers you were SORELY mistaken. These are the best of the best and they know more as a group than you could ever fathom. I'd suggest you tuck your tail between your legs and respectfully back out of this forum.
Blade
02-26-2004, 10:31 AM
AMEN SISTER!!!!!!
Pryce
02-26-2004, 11:14 AM
This thread has been reported, but I'm not removing or locking it yet.
GF and I have been following it daily. I actually thought BW and American would respond to the intelligent replies and ideas that were counter to theirs. That would have actually made for a good debate and maybe in the end something could have been learned.
So far American has only used immature ideas about the sex-industry and stereo-types of sex-workers to blanket the members here (that is insulting fyi). A tip American, you need to read the posts before you respond and address the points made.
I also wonder what you think of me. I am an infrequent club go-er - once a year...hell...about two years now...actually...ah, let's leave it at two years. My girlfriend (now fiancee - married in a few months) have gone with friends and as a couple for fun to stripclubs. Because we have a good time and enjoy ourselves, does that mean I don't love her? She doesn't love me? We have been together for 9 years now. When I close my eyes and try to fantasize, I can only see her. Every day that goes by I litterally love her more. We have a great sex life and all aspects of our relationship are full of passion (not just the sex). But according to you because I have been a consumer of the sex industry - that is impossible. ??? I believe you when you say you are speaking from your experience, but you may want to remember that that was YOUR experience. People are different.
To BW, I'm hoping you'll respond to more than just little comments and address the nice strong arguments made by the dancers.
FEMINIST DANCERS|70'S FEMINISTS:10:|0
And for the record, they are not the same poster...but it's obvious they know each other outside of the boards - same organization perhaps...
AMERICAN
02-26-2004, 11:22 AM
Boy, DJ, do you have anger management problems? That is also a sign of major problems.
Farrah_Holiday
02-26-2004, 11:23 AM
It was very clear from the beginning that neither one of these posters
B.W nor America wanted to discuss topics or have a civil debate.
IMO they came here for the sole purpose of bashing and belittling dancers and industry. I have made a few intelligent comments and reacted to the put downs with put downs of my own.
Having said that, I don't think this thread will teach me anything but, that there are still people in this world with nothing better to do than ATTACK others.
Farrah Holiday
AMERICAN
02-26-2004, 11:30 AM
It's interesting that you don't think my views hold water.....well, like I said, I've been close to being in your world....and now I'm in a different world. Seems to me that I can relate to your world and mine. But you can't relate to both, because you've never been where I am. Get away from the filth and immorality and see how life and relationships change.
AMERICAN
02-26-2004, 11:36 AM
So anyone who disagrees with you people and want to help you see a different view of the world is bashing, belitting, trolling, uncaring, etc., etc. etc.? I realize you don't want our help, but that's the way some people are.......they actually love and care about other people. We are just on a different level than you people. We are trying to help people be 'better' people, people who really do respect human life. I realize that we are basing 'better' on what we believe to be 'better', but it seems to me that if we give in to your world....we're lowering our standards for ourselves as human beings. I would never want to come to the conclusion that perverted sex and love of money are what is important in life.
Farrah_Holiday
02-26-2004, 11:42 AM
It's interesting that you don't think my views hold water.....well, like I said, I've been close to being in your world....and now I'm in a different world. Seems to me that I can relate to your world and mine. But you can't relate to both, because you've never been where I am. Get away from the filth and immorality and see how life and relationships change.
Your recent statements just further prove my point.
Beautiful Woman
02-26-2004, 11:45 AM
I will be posting replies once I get a chance. I enjoyed reading your post...thanks so much.
This thread has been reported, but I'm not removing or locking it yet.
GF and I have been following it daily. I actually thought BW and American would respond to the intelligent replies and ideas that were counter to theirs. That would have actually made for a good debate and maybe in the end something could have been learned.
So far American has only used immature ideas about the sex-industry and stereo-types of sex-workers to blanket the members here (that is insulting fyi). A tip American, you need to read the posts before you respond and address the points made.
I also wonder what you think of me. I am an infrequent club go-er - once a year...hell...about two years now...actually...ah, let's leave it at two years. My girlfriend (now fiancee - married in a few months) have gone with friends and as a couple for fun to stripclubs. Because we have a good time and enjoy ourselves, does that mean I don't love her? She doesn't love me? We have been together for 9 years now. When I close my eyes and try to fantasize, I can only see her. Every day that goes by I litterally love her more. We have a great sex life and all aspects of our relationship are full of passion (not just the sex). But according to you because I have been a consumer of the sex industry - that is impossible. ??? I believe you when you say you are speaking from your experience, but you may want to remember that that was YOUR experience. People are different.
To BW, I'm hoping you'll respond to more than just little comments and address the nice strong arguments made by the dancers.
FEMINIST DANCERS|70'S FEMINISTS:10:|0
And for the record, they are not the same poster...but it's obvious they know each other outside of the boards - same organization perhaps...
AMERICAN
02-26-2004, 11:47 AM
And to the administrator, you asked my opinion about your marital situation. Participating in any form of pornography, no matter how often it is, is choosing something that is not love for your wife. You may love your wife, and express it in many other ways.....but when you both choose to participate in objectifying a human being, that is not an act of love (rather the opposite). There are acts of everyday life that do not express love, faithfulness, loyalty, etc.....we all do that in some form or another. But to not realize that your participation in this stuff (and actually promoting it) is against what love is.
Farrah_Holiday
02-26-2004, 11:47 AM
So anyone who disagrees with you people and want to help you see a different view of the world is bashing, belitting, trolling, uncaring, etc., etc. etc.? I realize you don't want our help, but that's the way some people are.......they actually love and care about other people. We are just on a different level than you people. We are trying to help people be 'better' people, people who really do respect human life. I realize that we are basing 'better' on what we believe to be 'better', but it seems to me that if we give in to your world....we're lowering our standards for ourselves as human beings. I would never want to come to the conclusion that perverted sex and love of money are what is important in life.
You don't have a clue about any of us and what we do in our daily lives outside of dancing.
Its funny that you started bashing us after you couldn't hold an intelligent debate. Your behavior is childish for the most part.
Come back when you can hold an intelligent conversation void of all the name calling and insults.
FH
So... what do you do for a living, American? Secretary? In the end, do you really think your typing and filing skills are all you're worth? Don't you know that it's wrong and bad and immoral to spend all your days doing menial work for a little paycheck? Maybe you don't know yet how degraded you really feel. I know, I've experienced it, and let me tell you, filing is just filthy and immoral. You would be shocked how much your life would change if you would get away from that crap.
And I'm only telling you these things because I love you, dahling.
Lena
Lilith
02-26-2004, 12:10 PM
Everyone can trust me when I say that American is a fundementalist Baptist. S/he isn't here to debate, s/he is here to proselytize. To them, you are not even human unless you are another fundementalist Baptist, therefore they have no reservations about behaving in a cruel, socially inept or hateful manner.
This thread will never have anything of value to offer. They will not offer debate, only insults, because they have nothing to debate. And trust me, they are getting their jollies off every time we react. If there was ever a time to ignore (or ban), it is now.
Do. Not. Respond.
erotictonic
02-26-2004, 12:46 PM
Yea, she doesn't have a whole lot to say except that we're wrong and she's right. Who's smarter? There have been some great replies on here which you can't debate because you don't have the information or ability, BW and A. By the way, you might want to check your home storage building. You may be surprised what you find there... Men are going to look at women, no matter what. Women are going to look at men, no matter what. It doesn't mean there is any less love there. I find it pleasurable to look at beautiful forms. Bodies are natural and beautiful. Why not enjoy it? If you would open your mind and allow yourself to see what others see for one moment, you might realize that it is not so dirty after all. It sounds like you are so uptight because you're trying to live by rules that others have imposed upon you. Allow yourself to be natural, don't fight feelings. Close-mindedness is miserable, it causes hatred and division. Trying to close down your feelings of sexuality only leads to anxiousness and anger. That is what I'm seeing here. I've got an idea for you. Go out and buy a Playboy and a Playgirl magazine. Buy some sex toys. Buy some sexy lingerie and seduce your husband tonight. You might find that you actually have fun for once. If God didn't want us to be sexual creatures, he wouldn't have made us this way. Go with the feelings.
And here. You need these.
:chillpill: :chillpill: :chillpill: :chillpill: :chillpill: :chillpill: :chillpill: :chillpill:
ET :sun:
VenusGoddess
02-26-2004, 12:53 PM
And to the administrator, you asked my opinion about your marital situation. Participating in any form of pornography, no matter how often it is, is choosing something that is not love for your wife. You may love your wife, and express it in many other ways.....but when you both choose to participate in objectifying a human being, that is not an act of love (rather the opposite). There are acts of everyday life that do not express love, faithfulness, loyalty, etc.....we all do that in some form or another. But to not realize that your participation in this stuff (and actually promoting it) is against what love is.
You mean it is against what YOU feel love is. I feel that YOU are the one struggling to learn how to truly love. If you truly love people, you will not judge them based on color, religion, profession or opinions. Yet, you are the one who has come here and bashed us for being dancers. You tell us that we do not know what true satisfying, faithful love is...and you have no clue as to who we are or anything else that matters. I love my fiance. I love my daughter. In fact, I love my daughter so much that I quit my 9-5 job making 40 a year so that I could stay home and raise her myself. When I go to work, my fiance stays with her. My daughter is always with the people who love and care for her. I love all of the women on this board...granted, we may not see eye to eye on everything, but they are still wonderful people. I will not judge them for who they are or what they do. Life is about experience. We are all here to experience. I enjoy experiencing my sensuality in a club environment. That does not make me incapable of loving outside of the club environment. It does not make me any less of a human being. It does not make me an "abuser" by accepting money for doing so. Everyone is equal in the game. If you choose not to experience this aspect in your life in this way...then that is your choice. As soon as we are done experiencing certain things in our lives, then we will make concious choices and move on. We don't need anyone to hold the bible over our heads and ride our backs screaming of the damnation on our lives and the "I am holier than thou" attitude.
The only thing that you have proven in this thread is that you are against stripping. That is fine. In fact, that is better than fine, because if you feel that your quality of life is better because of it, then you are in a very good place. HOWEVER, that does not mean that everyone feels the same way you do. It does not mean that someone feels that the quality of their lives are diminished by being a stripper...in fact, I feel that stripping has given me a lot more than any other job could give me...just the opportunity to spend all day with my daughter every day. It is worth more than any amount of money in the world. I am a respectable woman because I make the choices that give me the most out of what I want in my life. I am respectable because I am working to help pay bills and give my daughter time with her mommy everyday. I am not sucking the government dry by sponging off welfare...even though my tax dollars have paid for that. I am respectable because I realize the power of sensuality and sexuality. I am respectable because I choose to be in a relationship that gives me the freedom to make choices about what I want to experience...and supports me through those experiences...and would be there for me no matter what. He doesn't stay because I have a great body or because I am beautiful...he stays because he sees me for Who I Am...a loving, caring, kind, forgiving, trustworthy, non-judgmental, accepting, powerful, joyful, intelligent, and free-spirited soul. That's why he stays...and those are the same reasons I love him and choose to spend my life with him.
My last post was posted out of anger. And I apologize for the rude things that were said...however, you have shown so little respect for the CHOICES that every single woman in the world has decided to make and experience. You are trying to degrade that experience. There is so much more to life than judging others...maybe it is time for you to sit back and just let this all go. You have made your choices...the most loving thing that you could do for yourself and everyone else is to let them make their choices and experience what consequences those choices bring.
Have a good day.
Just in response to comments, in general, it is very obvious that the women on here really do not like men at all and have no respect for human life, in general (male or female). They feel inferior to men, and they have found a way to receive POWER and CONTROL, through means of a very deceptive and manipulative way. I agree that women have been mistreated for way too long, but using sex and bodies to gain power actually has just the opposite effect of what you are trying to achieve. But again, I realize that may be what some of you are trying to do.....trying to be the powerful one and willing to sell your bodies to accomplish that. You will only gain the "respect" of men who don't respect women to begin with (which of course is not respect at all). Someone said on here that the look in a man's eyes is respect. What kind of men have you been around anyway? You definitely need to get out and see the world and experience a different quality of man. But then I read someone else's comment that men aren't looking at strippers respectfully, rather they know they are in the submissive role when watching a stripper....and that in itself is another reason why women strip. It is a power play. It's the 'I'm tired of being treated as a second class citizen, so let's use men any way we can to dominate and control him' theory. I guess it's definitely working for some of you. But you will never experience the kind of relationship that comes with complete faithfulness...mind, body and soul of a man. That is something you will never experience. You probably don't even think it's possible. Most here have probably been raised in very male-dominated homes.....or raised around men who were very domineering. This is the way to get back at them, I suppose!!?? Again, I guess you think it's working for you. But you have no idea what you're settling for. Do you have any idea what it feels like to look into a man's eyes and not see any other woman but yourself in his eyes? I do. And girls, that is power....the power that is not perverted.....just absolutely awesome.
wow, you dont even know us yet you assume so much. facinating.
but as I am bored I will humor you:
I like males, most of my friends are male. Most of my male friends don't like strip clubs. The reason being that they want a real person and not just the fantasy. They want to talk and share and they don't get off on strange women getting naked in front of them. We talk about many things, philosipy, physics, poetry... It is very fun.
We also do not sell our bodies, we sell our time. Just like any fast food worker. We get paid a rate to do something. They get paid to flip burgers, we get paid to take off our clothes, we just get paid better.
I said before I do not care if customers respect me, they are just customers, not my friends, I care about them or what they think of me as much as the person who hands you your Mceggwich in the morning does about you.
Never experience compleate faithfullness? you need to meet my husband. He is the most wonderful person. He is so careing and understanding. We talk about everything. He is my best friend. We have loved each other for 7 years and have been through a lot together and on our own. We know we belong together. And before you go off thinking this is just some delision, He has told me much of this himself. We finish eachothers sentances, we think the same way, it is truely a wonderfull experince. We have talked about the definition of cheating. We both agree on what is and what isnt. I know I only think of him when we make love. When I masterbate; I think of nothing, or I think of him.
Male dominated homes, dominering men? Nope, wrong again. I was raised in a matriach. My mother was the head of the household. Everything went through her. She mowed the lawn, chopped firewood, and all the other "mens" work. My father did the dishes and the laundrey and cooked us dinner. My father is a very gentle understanding person.
See only myself. Yes, everytime he has a concern, wheather it be the cats vet appointment, or my visit to my sisters. Everytime he just wants to curl up on the couch and cuddle. Everytime I clear the dishes after we eat the dinner he has made. When he says "I love you" on his way out the door to work. I don't belive it is power, as I did not force him to love me. But I will agree it is awesome.
oh, and BTW, Love and Sex are not the same. You seem to be mixing them a lot.
There you go Blade, a response from a married stripper.