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Farrah_Holiday
02-26-2004, 02:10 PM
I only have this to say :banned: and double :banned:

Blade
02-26-2004, 02:10 PM
Boy, DJ, do you have anger management problems? That is also a sign of major problems.
I hate to tell you this but I have yet to even approach anger...
As of this post I am mildly annoyed,somewhat frustrated and yet I find the basis on which you two choose to attack laughable.

ami
02-26-2004, 02:13 PM
So anyone who disagrees with you people and want to help you see a different view of the world is bashing, belitting, trolling, uncaring, etc., etc. etc.? I realize you don't want our help, but that's the way some people are.......they actually love and care about other people. We are just on a different level than you people. We are trying to help people be 'better' people, people who really do respect human life. I realize that we are basing 'better' on what we believe to be 'better', but it seems to me that if we give in to your world....we're lowering our standards for ourselves as human beings. I would never want to come to the conclusion that perverted sex and love of money are what is important in life.


again wow, that is what I was gonna say to you! :o

Blade
02-26-2004, 02:22 PM
So anyone who disagrees with you people and want to help you see a different view of the world is bashing, belitting, trolling, uncaring, etc., etc. etc.? I realize you don't want our help, but that's the way some people are.......they actually love and care about other people. We are just on a different level than you people. We are trying to help people be 'better' people, people who really do respect human life. I realize that we are basing 'better' on what we believe to be 'better', but it seems to me that if we give in to your world....we're lowering our standards for ourselves as human beings. I would never want to come to the conclusion that perverted sex and love of money are what is important in life.
I for one am quite content to accept help when help is offered, if I have asked for it. The difference between offering to help when asked and trying to force help on peole is simple to see....
Let me explain it this way: If I were a drug addict out on the street stealing to support my addiction and I desperatley wanted to become clean and sober,I would seek out help,and hopefully there would be someone I could turn to to give me the help I needed.
However If I did not see anything wrong with my addiction and you FORCED sobriety upon me,I would rob you blind and go out and get as high as I could,laughing at your foolishness the entire time.
I hope that me using a different scenario to illustrate the difference in asking for help and having someone try to force help on someone has opened someones eyes to the fact that you can not force your ideas on anyone.

AMERICAN
02-26-2004, 02:31 PM
Someone asked what I do for a living.....well, right now I am involved in a worldwide prison ministry and I also edit court reporter transcripts from home. In times past, I have worked in the banking industry, worked as a paralegal, and also have worked as an administrative assistant for a large t-shirt manufacturing company. That will give someone ammunition against me, I'm sure. You'll find a way to put me down for something, I'm sure. That's okay. I'm ready for it!

I have considered working in the sex industry before, because as a beautiful woman, yes, that is tempting....but I will not sale myself that way. I will not lower my standards for myself. I would prefer to live on the streets before I lowered myself to that level. I would find a way to make ends meet if I lost everything, without selling my integrity.

doc-catfish
02-26-2004, 02:48 PM
And it's also kind of amusing that you think I am fat, ugly, jealous, etc., etc., etc.......I've seen the pictures of the women on here so far, and not to be cocky or conceited, but just stating the truth, I am more attractive and have a better body than anyone on here. I used to be insecure and need attention from others and get off on "turning on" strangers.....but I've grown up!!


So anyone who disagrees with you people and want to help you see a different view of the world is bashing, belitting, trolling, uncaring, etc., etc. etc.? I realize you don't want our help, but that's the way some people are.......they actually love and care about other people. We are just on a different level than you people. We are trying to help people be 'better' people, people who really do respect human life. I realize that we are basing 'better' on what we believe to be 'better', but it seems to me that if we give in to your world....we're lowering our standards for ourselves as human beings. I would never want to come to the conclusion that perverted sex and love of money are what is important in life.


It's interesting that you don't think my views hold water.....well, like I said, I've been close to being in your world....and now I'm in a different world. Seems to me that I can relate to your world and mine. But you can't relate to both, because you've never been where I am. Get away from the filth and immorality and see how life and relationships change.

Hmm, seems to me somebody needs to be tied down to a chair and given a lap dance. I'll supply the first $20 if one of you ladies want to give our friend here a proper initiation to your, ahem, "world".

Just be sure not to begin the festivites until my heathen backsliding ass grabs a soda from the fridge first. If I'm going to objectify you ladies, I want to do it in style.
:cheers:

Djoser
02-26-2004, 03:42 PM
Once again, it's a damned shame that an attempt to talk about what could possibly be wrong with stripping as practiced today is focused on "immorality". Erotic entertainment is not inherently immoral or wrong, and such accusations only cloud the real issues.

Any one of the dancers who has had some asshole try to finger her or demand a hand job because he gave her twenty bucks can tell you it that men can often be complete assholes, and that they certainly can and will objectify women if given the chance. Worse yet, I know of managers who require women to blow them to get hired, and who have used violence more than once on the dancers in their club. It really does happen, unfortunately, certainly not in most clubs, but more often than many would like to believe.

But lame attempts to propagandize and confuse the issue by trotting out 70's style feminism and utilizing antiquated codes of morality will not help anyone.

Some strippers, such as Veronika, are truly empowered and enlightened women. They carry on their careers with creativity, integrity, and justifiable pride. Others are brutalized and have their lives ruined (at least temporarily) in the process, or react by becoming callous and unfeeling manipulators themselves. I have seen all three phenomena with my own eyes.

Boring the hell out of everyone with interminable and unreadable posts will do noone any good. Nor will getting into shouting matches.

Labelling stripping as a form of "perverted sex...filth and immorality" is simplistic and, quite obviously, counterproductive to anyone who really wants to "help" those strippers who might actually need some.

AMERICAN
02-26-2004, 04:13 PM
And for the record, no, I am not a baptist.

Oh, and another job I've had was reorganizing a chiropractor's office from the ground up.

Beautiful Woman
02-26-2004, 04:46 PM
How is that different from prostitution? Prostitutes still go home with their bodies. The men have sex with them for a fantasy and the men don't really get them (since the prostitutes leave afterwards). The men don't even know the prostitute at all which is the same as a stripper. Both are just selling their bodies for money then taking their bodies home with them after the men are done with them.


(heh.. ya know, the thing I like about stripping is that I have something, and I sell it, and I still have it so I sell it again and again and at the end of the night, I still have it when I go home with my money)

Topaz
02-26-2004, 05:02 PM
:brow:

WHYYYYYYYYYY...on God's green earth would you join a stripper site if you're just going to blast them...hmmmm...what's your mission..... :detective:


(i feel another secret squirrle assignment coming on y'all...anyone want to join me...)

erotictonic
02-26-2004, 05:19 PM
All of those replies and that's ALL you've got to say BW... Why do we even bother? All she can do is judge. Judgemental people usually are lacking in the brains dept.


ET :sun:

Beautiful Woman
02-26-2004, 06:12 PM
I have noticed that people on this message board are very curious about me. So I will share a few things....

1) I just had 4 wisdom teeth pulled and I am on heavy pain meds....so yes, I have nothing better to do than sit and surf the internet for awhile.....

2) I am not the same person as American....

3) I am a female....

4) I apologize to those people I have offended. I clearly do not understand the stripping world and I have been enjoying everyone's comments. I appreciate those who took the time to read and post questions/comments of my post so I will do my best to reply.

5) The point of my post was not the fact that stripping and/or strippers are bad....(which I admit I feel is the case for the most part....actually, the individual strippers might be very nice people but I do not like their profession.....)....

On the feminist website that I ran across I felt that the overall message was telling women that I am going to have your man if you like it or not....I am going to be the one to get his attention....etc. etc. It was very immature...in my opinion....and downright wrong.....it had the mentality of a bully who was crying for attention and enjoying it when she would get it.....it seemed to me that she was trying to make women (not strippers but other women) feel bad.....I feel that feminists should support women....not work against them.....if you want to strip then fine BUT do not work against other women...that of course is my opinion....

I have seen many people write that a lot of women are going to the clubs...I already knew that....why they are there I have no idea....I know that one female goes b/c she seems to be smarter than many of the strippers...she gets the same "power" & attention as the strippers (men think she is so cool for loving to go to those places) yet she isn't seen as a whore b/c she doesn't take her clothes off....men shower her with attention for it and she loves that....so for her she uses the strippers for her own gain and benefit....I think that many women go for that reason but I could be wrong....I am sure the reasons greatly vary....

I feel that strippers are going to do what they are going to do.....it doesn't bother or affect me....but when someone tells me that is the way it is....your man is going to come to me.....there is nothing you can do about it....you are going to have to learn to like it....then I am going to stand up to that.....I felt that her attempts at getting attention were ridiculous and her message was rude....

I feel that stripping is a form of cheating for many reasons (no need to repeat my post here)....when men go to bachelor parties for one "last fling" before typing the knot....there is a reason why that is going to be "forbidden" after marriage.....think about it.....men don't have a "last fling" bike riding party, last chance cheeseburger making cook-outs, one last time golf playing bachelor parties....

To Katrine -

Since you are a sociologist, I was wondering if you have read any of the research regarding your occupation?
One study that is in many university sociology books is titled: Topless Dancers: Managing Stigma in a Deviant Occupation and was published in Deviant Behavior A Text-Reader in the Sociology of Deviance which is currently being used to teach sociology classes to thousands of university students.

In the study they asked college students what type of women they thought worked in strip clubs...the responses they gave were: hard women, dumb, stupid, uneducated, lower class, can't do anything else for a living, oversexed, immoral, and prostitutes. Most strippers realized the stigma attached to their occupation so many try to hide it by calling themselves dancers, entertainers, waitresses, etc.
They spent over 9 months on this study and they found that a major job complaint of strippers was their "objectification" by customers and their being viewed as "just a babe in a club"

A career sequence typical for most strippers: 1) tendency toward exhibitionistic behavior for gain (I found it interesting that many strippers find power when getting men to gaze at them with their full attention)..... I am wondering what type of power that is? I do not understand and here is why....
Suppose I went to the mall and witnessed some idiot picking his nose and wiping the buggers on the payphone buttons (I actually did witness this at the mall).....many, many people were staring at him...he had all the attention....negative attention seemed to be fine for him and it appeared to fulfill his needs.....what power did he actually have?
Another thing.....I witnessed my neighbor's HS girls dressing in slinky clothes and they were able to get the attention of men around them b/c of it....men who were other women would stare at them and they would giggle b/c it was funny to get the attention away from another women (which in their minds placed them above the others) and from the older men who could never have them....in other words, the "power" comes from getting others to notice you.....
When people seek power by the way they look or behave they run the risk of being rejected....which isn't really power at all....people that truly have real power don't need the "thrill of the chase" the "rush" the "challenge".....that is giving control over to the person who gets to judge you for your self-worth.....
To continue, according to the study topless dancers (this study didn't research fully nude dancers)...use two methods to manage the stigma of being a dancer....1) dividing the social world (us against them mentality and sticking together in a small group to support others who are alike)

2) rationalization and neutralization which includes:

1) denial of responsibility,

2) denial of injury,
(bewilderment over why so many people oppose topless dancing....."they just don't understand".....they rationalize their behav. by denying any harm but also contend that they actually perform positive functions for society....)


3) denial of the victim,

4) condemnation of the condemners,
(basically said that strippers are defensive...and condemn others....one example, "They rationalize that what they do is no different from what all women do. All women as they see it, even wives, are really exhibitionists & prostitutes, but just charge a different kind of price, such as a dinner or marriage."

& 5) appeal to higher loyalities
(strippers claim they violate social norms in order to benefit others.....in other words they might say....I earn money to raise my child and I'm not on welfare.....) by doing this they neutralize some of the external stigma from society and deflect any internally generated or self-imposed stigma (I take that to mean excuses work)

Any thoughts?






Not to mention, your thinking is the opposite of what has been known from thousands of years of philosophers, religions, and more recently psychology.

i'm a trained sociologist. Obviously my thinking is not so different from names such as Marx, Weber, Durkheim, Mead, Merton, plus all of those nameless professors I worked so hard for. Oh, and yes, I believe everything philisophers and especially FUCKING RELIGION tell me....

If you don't know Paglia, you are not a real feminist.
Thus, using Socratic Induction, you are a MAN BABY!!!!


Nah....just asking what you meant by "it ain't pretty' in regards to your comment about what men are really like.

What I really meant was that I cry on the inside when my perverted uncle touches me in my swimsuit area....

I left making sweeping hasty generalizations in the janitor's closet in high school where I screwed the entire basketball team.... :sarcastic:
:highfive:
American't.....

One day, I will quit stripping, but you unfortunately will forever remain an asshole.... :withstupid:

Beautiful Woman
02-26-2004, 06:29 PM
Ok....this is what I don't understand...many strippers on this site have claimed that they are the ones with the power over men (the way men gaze at them and stuff.....they'd follow them anywhere and do almost anything for the fantasy...etc. etc.).....and here you have said that customers get into your personal life just b/c they see themselves as having the power since they hold the money.....and so many men treat you like prostitutues? I am very confused because this all seems like a big contradiction to me.....

I hate it when customers try to get into my personal life just because they think that they have so much power over me with a stupid $20 bill as if I were a desparate beggar. I can understand why most strippers would call for package check. We deal with intrusive guys who treat us like prostitutes every day.
Ok - now I will take the time to read the whole post.

Dizzy
02-26-2004, 06:29 PM
How is that different from prostitution? Prostitutes still go home with their bodies. The men have sex with them for a fantasy and the men don't really get them (since the prostitutes leave afterwards). The men don't even know the prostitute at all which is the same as a stripper. Both are just selling their bodies for money then taking their bodies home with them after the men are done with them.


(heh.. ya know, the thing I like about stripping is that I have something, and I sell it, and I still have it so I sell it again and again and at the end of the night, I still have it when I go home with my money)




STRIPPERS DO NOT SELL THEIR BODIES! THEY SELL THEIR NUDITY!

Read that over and over again as many times as you need to, say it out loud if you must, write it 100 times on a blackboard, whatever it is you need to do to get it to stick.

The main difference is, when prostitutes sell their bodies (which they indeed do -- whether or not that is right or wrong depends on the individual and their own sense of morality), once the money exchanges hands, generally, customers can do whatever they like with that body, and the prostitute has little say in what happens, unless she wants to offer a refund.

When a dancer sells the intangible product that is her nudity, once the money exchanges hands, the customer is allowed to do whatever he likes with her nudity INSIDE HIS HEAD, because that is the only place her nudity exists -- in the minds of those who see it.

I hope I made that easy enough to understand, and I'd like to state that this is only the way I personally view the subject. The other ladies in here may have different perspectives.

Veronika
02-26-2004, 06:33 PM
How is that different from prostitution? Prostitutes still go home with their bodies. The men have sex with them for a fantasy and the men don't really get them (since the prostitutes leave afterwards). The men don't even know the prostitute at all which is the same as a stripper. Both are just selling their bodies for money then taking their bodies home with them after the men are done with them.



Well, if you really want to get into that aspect, what is really wrong with prostitution if it were in, say, a safe, clean and regulated environment? I live in a state where prostituion is legal and have met some amazing women who worked in brothels. STD checks, security, set rates and a social network. I've met lawyers who went to work in a brothel. The number one thing you will hear from prostitutes and escorts is that most men want to talk. What does that tell you? There is an intimacy gap somewhere for one thing.

In *countries* (not cow counties like here in Nevada - makes for no comparison because of the hush quality) where there is truly legal prostitution and a healthy cultural acceptance of sexual entertainment and sexuality in general there is a low divorce rate, high rate of teen and young adult virginity and a low teen pregnancy rate. That has some interesting implications.

Maybe, and I know this may not the overiding sentiment even here, it is a matter of degrees. We are all a part of the sex entertainment industry. And face it, that anonymity can be a turn on whether you deal with a stripper, prostitute, magazine image or random flirtation in a bar or nightclub.

As far as taking my body home with me "after the men are done with me", I feel a lot less intruded upon than when I worked 60+ hours a week for an admittedly high salary and had to think constantly about the next day or next project. I was emotionally exhausted. I was *owned* body and soul as I no longer had a life of my own and furthermore ANY idea I had was the intellectual property of the company I worked for. I signed away my life for physical comforts...

When all is said and done, I'm pro erotica and erotic self-empowerment for men and woman. I feel like I "share the love" and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has had a customer return later with their SO to add some spice to their couples life. I have some female regulars, does that surprise you BW and A? I know I'm not alone there either.

Eroticism is both an individual thing and a thing to be shared with your partner. Everyone (unless they won't admit it) has at one time or another had a fantasy that lives only in their head or in a book or on a monitor or whatever. That allows us to find out who we are sexually and the more comfortable we are with ourselves the more we are able to share at least the effects of that knowlege with our partners, current or future. The exploration of those things both personally and mutually is what makes for a healthy sexual outlook and a hot and loving sexual relationship. That exploration can include one partner getting a lapdance and coming home and making passionate love to their SO. And no, they don't have to say where they've been. Some people need to feel that little rush of "getting away with something" and since it is (usually) a finite experience, they can get away with "something" without being truely devilish. A relationship with someone is built on two individuals bringing their experiences together to form a respectful partnership. Part of that partnership is a) to acknowlege you don't own them and b) that ultimately, no matter what might cross their minds, they love you and will work to make a good go of things. To think that you can control a person's thoughts by throwing out "respect issues" is disrespectful in and of itself. There is no more or less than, just different and that is why we are gifted with an active fantasy life. So what if that fantasy life is stimulated?? All it can do in a healthy relationship is add to it whether that be at a personal level or a couples' level.

(and I've been in my current relationship for 5 year and before that with my high school sweetheart for 8 so I feel I can safely talk about good, long-term relationships)

Or it may also be the personal journey of self exploration that helps when one loses a spouse. Lonliness is worse than almost anything for a lot of people. If they have to pay for comfort, is that really wrong?

Life is full of different experiences, journeys and beliefs.

We on this site just happen to work in one aspect of that erotic potential. Most of us here are quite happy with that or at least know that we've lucked out in the great pantheon of potential ways of making money. You aren't going to get any converts here or change anyone's mind. The best we can do is agree to disagree. If it persists past the point of an exchange of idea (which BW & A's vitriolic posts indicate it has) there are much deeper personal issues that the idea of whether strippers can be feminists or no.

This could've been an interesting discussion. Alas...

~V~
<<out>>

Beautiful Woman
02-26-2004, 06:48 PM
<<Most women do not have the personality, confidence and good looks to do the job that we do.>>

I have been to a strip club and from my experience (and from hearing from others) a lot of strippers are ugly, fat, old, and unattractive.....(I&#039;m not saying that you are...I have no idea....) Some of the other postings on these message boards have been strippers complaining about the ugly, fat, old, and unattractive strippers performing in the same clubs as them..... It seems to be a &#039;problem&#039;....
Men have different tastes in women so I&#039;m not sure how "good looks" could be a requirement? I don&#039;t believe that strip clubs are about sex...I believe that men like seeing women in a degrading position to feel macho (my opinion of course).... so why should looks matter?
As for the personality, who cares what she is like? Shyness might even be a turn-on for men who like the appeal of innocence..... I thought that men weren&#039;t there to get to know her so who cares? Plus, people can adapt to their environment so if a stripper doesn&#039;t have the personality to begin with I&#039;m sure it could easily be developed.
As for confidence, I would assume that women who WANT to do this WILL do it....I cannot imagine a female who is really wanting to strip badly but cannot b/c she lacks the confidence....have you run across many women like that? I am not understanding your point it seems....I do appreciate your opinion though.

I believe the following 100%.....since you strippers have seemed to unite on the message boards I am curious if you have tried to prevent this type of behavior in any form? If you could prevent this (maybe open your own clubs run by yourselves rather than those corrupt types) you could be treated better? I am sure it is probably much more complicated than that but aren&#039;t improvements obtainable? That seems to be your ultimate goal - to be treated and viewed more positively. Instead of chatting about it on a message board....how to make each other feel better and boost others&#039; self-esteems and confidence levels with kind words why not DO something to improve your working conditions? Why continue to put up with that crap?


Solicitation to prostitution is illegal by the way. The reason that this illegal activity by patrons of the club is so prevalent probably has more to do with the fact that the club owners have tons of money and power to pay off politicians and cops. Instead of sending in under cover cops in to the clubs to bust the johns, they waste their time trying to bust the poor desparate working women because the club owners make way more money off of the prostitutes than the dancers. That money eventually goes into the pockets of the politicians and cops.If the politicians and cops would focus on the johns, believe me, those types of patrons would go elsewhere for their prostitution fix and they would treat strippers like strippers.

Beautiful Woman
02-26-2004, 06:56 PM
Your post makes sense to me. I did not mean for the argument to be mean.....although I admit I most likely failed with that.....but I did want some feedback and dialogue.....this is an interesting topic to me b/c I don&#039;t understand it. You are right...I feel that men who are in relationships are cheating when they go to strip clubs. I apologize if I hurt your feelings.
Thanks for the great reply.



:sleep: :sleep:
BW, the fact that you spent such a long time writing what must be the longest post ever tells me that you have some emotional involvement here. Why else would you spend so much time on a message board for strippers, and only to start an arguement with a board full of them? Let&#039;s get to the real point. Your problem is you don&#039;t want your BF/husband to go to strip clubs. It makes you feel as if he&#039;s cheating. That&#039;s fine, tell him so. (And please spare him your entire book on the subject.) If you don&#039;t want him to come to the club I fully agree he should listen to you. But 4 pages of rants and lame old &#039;they don&#039;t respect you&#039; arguements is not going to make us quit our jobs.

VenusGoddess
02-26-2004, 07:06 PM
1) I just had 4 wisdom teeth pulled and I am on heavy pain meds....so yes, I have nothing better to do than sit and surf the internet for awhile.....


Sorry to hear that...



4) I apologize to those people I have offended. I clearly do not understand the stripping world and I have been enjoying everyone&#039;s comments. I appreciate those who took the time to read and post questions/comments of my post so I will do my best to reply.


The only annoyance is the one where you continue to belittle full grown women for the choices that they have made in life. It may not be a choice that you like...it may not be a choice that you would make, but it is a free country...and each woman has the right to make any choice about her lifestyle...her body...and her profession that she wishes. If you do not agree with it...then, fine. Don&#039;t make the same choices. You do not like your man to look at another woman? Fine, marry one who is blind and then add permanent blinders for extra precaution. But, you placing YOUR ideals...YOUR morals...YOUR judgements on another will only cause a backlash towards you. Which is exactly what happened here.



5) The point of my post was not the fact that stripping and/or strippers are bad....(which I admit I feel is the case for the most part....actually, the individual strippers might be very nice people but I do not like their profession.....)....


That&#039;s fine...then why are you still coming here? Why are you choosing to try and force your ideals/morals on us? If we wanted this, that would be one thing...but, we do not.



On the feminist website that I ran across I felt that the overall message was telling women that I am going to have your man if you like it or not....I am going to be the one to get his attention....etc. etc. It was very immature...in my opinion....and downright wrong.....it had the mentality of a bully who was crying for attention and enjoying it when she would get it.....it seemed to me that she was trying to make women (not strippers but other women) feel bad.....I feel that feminists should support women....not work against them.....if you want to strip then fine BUT do not work against other women...that of course is my opinion....I feel that strippers are going to do what they are going to do.....it doesn&#039;t bother or affect me....but when someone tells me that is the way it is....your man is going to come to me.....there is nothing you can do about it....you are going to have to learn to like it....then I am going to stand up to that.....I felt that her attempts at getting attention were ridiculous and her message was rude....


Notice the part in bold..."it does not bother or affect me..." Obviously it does. But, that&#039;s not my problem nor my concern. Why? Because you are choosing to be bothered by it. Sure, there are a lot of women who flaunt themselves on a daily basis. Do you get all bent out of shape and leave mean notes on their cars? You are bothered by it because (I feel) they are openly flaunting their sexuality...and you are not comfortable enough to do that. You are bothered by it because you cannot find the power within you to do the same. Sexuality is a part of human nature. We all have it. We all need it (even the priests of your beloved catholic religion are molesting little boys...). You have a choice. You can either accept it or deny it. With each choice comes a consequence. But, either way, you have a choice.



3) denial of the victim,


Victim? Who&#039;s the victim? We are not talking about Catholic confessionals with priests and little boys. We are talking about grown adults choosing their form of entertainment...



& 5) appeal to higher loyalities
(strippers claim they violate social norms in order to benefit others.....in other words they might say....I earn money to raise my child and I&#039;m not on welfare.....) by doing this they neutralize some of the external stigma from society and deflect any internally generated or self-imposed stigma (I take that to mean excuses work)


In my mind, there is nothing wrong with me being able to make enough money to work 2 nights a week, spend all the time in the world with my daughter, pay my bills, and still live comfortably. With a full-time 9-5 job, my daughter&#039;s daycare would be more than my mortgage payment per month. I do not find stripping an "external stigma". It is an internal stigma...one with which you choose to identify with. It is my choice...and none of your business, really.

SCGirl
02-26-2004, 07:49 PM
I have been to a strip club and from my experience (and from hearing from others) a lot of strippers are ugly, fat, old, and unattractive

Apparently you went to the wrong club honey. Try again.

Beautiful Woman
02-26-2004, 07:57 PM
How is stripping sex positive? How do strip clubs where there are only naked women and no naked men empower people?


Thus the 70s dogma that you use to argue your initial points is mothball worthy. The feminism of the current age is tending toward sex positive, male and female empowerment and boasts many sex-workers and erotic entertainers among its ranks.

Actually, I ran across a website about feminist strippers which made me curious how the two could possibly be related. In my opinion, the majority of the content of that website seemed like grossly twisted opinions rather than facts, immature, etc. The content of my post explains just that & why I feel that way. Therefore, I am not taking anything from ANY viewpoint except that of my own based on a combination of facts, opinions, and life experiences. I liked Jay&#039;s statement and felt it was well thought out....and????


Now if you want to approach this from the feminist viewpoint of "A feminist is a person who believes that there should be political, social, and economic equality of the sexes. A female stripper can be a feminist. A male coal miner can be a feminist." which Jay Zeno wrote and you agreed with, then you, by the nature of using "feminism" as the basis of your argument, negate your initial argument.

No one is saying you cannot do that. I feel that you have missed my main points for whatever reason.


We see a need and fill it, a basic capitalist function by which we benefit financially. How is that not feminist? Why do we not have the right to participate in this industry if we can be finacially rewarded?

I believe that people are more complex than what you&#039;ve described below..... For example, a Catholic Priest may be a blessing to many, many people and he may have done a great many services to the community. Does that make him morally corrupt? I would say no. If he is also a sex predator then I would say yes. (I don&#039;t believe that most Priests are child predators just using as an example...) In other words, working in a factory farm may or may not be morally corrupt etc.


How is it any more morally corrupt than, say, participating in factory farming? Or munitions manufacturing? If a woman owns a store, finds her fortune in the world, by opening a sexually oriented store that provides goods for strippers as well as couples&#039; toys, is she also not a feminist even though she is a successful (for sake of argument) sole proprieter; a designation that was previously little open to females?

How should women be treated more fairly?

Someone on this message board made a great comment concerning the difference between how men and women are treated in society. Men can go outside in shorts and mow the lawn and that is considered to be normal while a female in a bikini might cause a neighborhood outrage. I do not like that double standard but how can that be fixed?
In my opinion women can often times be their worst enemies. That is the main reason why I didn&#039;t like the feminist stripper website....there was a stripper saying....I going to get your man if I shake my naked ass in his face (basically).... Women enjoy wearing slutty clothes and taking attention from other women (which works against other women)....men often work together to help each other to figure out if a woman is a slut....they cover for each other...etc. etc. (not always of course...) So, when women take off their clothes for attention society looks down on her for it.....


If you base the stripper argument on the Social or Political equality issues, shouldn&#039;t you be lobbying for officials to treat woman in the erotic entertainment industry more fairly as they have the right to pursue this path (supply and demand and otherwise legal).

That is absolutely correct!! I agree that many women&#039;s professions should become more valuable.....I am all for that. I have worked to raise the standards for teachers but I feel that won&#039;t happen anytime soon.


If you base the stripper argument on the Economic equality issue, shouldn&#039;t you be trying to make, say, a teacher or caregiver more valuable so that other needed options are attractive in our current economic climate?

Was Collette a feminist? George Sand? Lianne de Pugy? Coco Chanel? Sarah Bernhard? Mary Pickford? Veronica Franco? Mary Shelley? Aspasia? Lola Montez? Marlene Dietrich? ... Madonna?

Would any of these women have achieved what they did if they didn&#039;t use all of their wiles and gifts? Would they have achieved their relative freedom? Independence? The respect they received from their peers?

I have no idea where that came from but oookkk...."implied academic stance"????


If you want to argue your points without the pretense and implied academic stance

of trotting out "feminism" as a cover for you moralistic prose, fine. Otherwise, call a spade a spade and argue your points on their own merit. We would all have a lot more respect for you if you didn&#039;t insult our intelligence.

How do you provide companionship and WHY would a fantasy provide companionship?


I strip. I take my clothes off for money as well as providing eroticism and companionship.

For money. I am a stripper/dancer/ecdysiast/entertainer whatever as a profession. I also do many many other things and am not defined by just one. By which criteria do you decide the strength of my feminism? Does the fact that I strip weigh more in the "non-feminist" vein than does my volunteering on archeological digs pertaining to finding out more about women in gold rush encampments? Does the fact that I wore my cutest outfit to my Dot Com&#039;s NOC to convince someone to take the time to teach me FreeBSD in order to get a $15K/year raise take away my feminist points? Does the fact that I was smart enough to take the knowlege and run with it make a difference?

I use my wits, body, and mind to make money in a way that is strictly reserved for woman. How much more "WOMAN" power can you get than that?

Zabrina
02-26-2004, 08:11 PM
Ok....this is what I don&#039;t understand...many strippers on this site have claimed that they are the ones with the power over men (the way men gaze at them and stuff.....they&#039;d follow them anywhere and do almost anything for the fantasy...etc. etc.).....and here you have said that customers get into your personal life just b/c they see themselves as having the power since they hold the money.....and so many men treat you like prostitutues? I am very confused because this all seems like a big contradiction to me.....


If I worked in a big corporation my boss would also have my paycheck and the ability to fire me--in essence the &#039;power&#039;. When I chose a profession I did not choose based on who I might have power over or what strangers respect I might earn. My deciding factor was the control over my own life that stripping has to offer. It&#039;s not a matter of power over some random customer, I don&#039;t care about that. I don&#039;t care if that random customer respects me or not. Anything you do in life, there are going to be people who disagree with you and might not respect you for saying or doing that. Do you adjust your life becuase some stranger does not respect you? I do not live a life based on impressing strangers. I do what makes me happy and what allows me to live the best, and happiest life with those I care about. I strip because it lets me set my own hours, I make as much or as little as I choose, I have all the time I need to do what I want. It lets me have power over my own life rather than some boss telling to work 40 hours a week and when I can eat lunch. It&#039;s not about issues with men, or immorality, or my getting attention for being sexual. It&#039;s just a job.

SCGirl
02-26-2004, 08:27 PM
I feel the need to add this:

I was a DEVOUT Christian and had all the morals and ethics that come with it--I was appalled by the sex industry as a whole and felt it was immoral. However, I never belittled the women who chose to partake in it. Many women, not all, but many, are "forced" into either physically, economically, etc. They were doing what they needed to do to survive and as long as it didn&#039;t interfere with MY life, I was fine. But I&#039;m getting off track....when I went to college, I joined a local Bible Fellowship and my boyfriend went off to a Christian college (I wanted to go to a christian college but couldn&#039;t afford it). Everything in my life was dedicated to religion and piety. However, I started to see the people around me for who they really were. The leaders of the fellowship (who I still believe to be genuine and caring people) loved to spark debate with people who were not of the same faith in order to convert them and for that reason ONLY. They were dead set on imposing their views and beliefs on other people. Yes, they truly had their hearts in the right place, they honestly believed in "saving" these people. However, there were even feuds within the group. No two people interpreted the Bible in the same way. The moment that comes most quickly to mind is the conversation we had on inter-faith marriage. They preached to us that a Christian and a non-Christian could not marry because it was against God&#039;s law and they would both (and their children) go to Hell. They backed this up with several citations from the Bible. However, I also cited the Bible (Corinthians to be more specific) and said that no matter what faith your spouse was, they would be "saved" in order that your children would be "of god". They shot my comment down without considering it, without addressing it, without telling me why it was wrong. Beyond that, some of the fellow students started seeming extremely hypocritical to me. My best friend of the group confided in me that she had been having sex outside of her relationship. Now, last time I checked, premarital sex was a no-no and cheating is CERTAINLY a no-no. Well, this girl went and slept with over 20 random guys that semester and had no qualms telling our Jewish friends that THEY were going to Hell because they didn&#039;t believe that Jesus was our Lord and Savior, but SHE was going to heaven beacause, no matter what she did wrong, she believed that Jesus died for HER sins so she was clean as a freakin&#039; whistle. Now does that seem right to you? It sure didn&#039;t to me. Especially since the Jewish girls she was talking about never did anything wrong to anyone. They were very good people. Better people than I considered myself. Why would God condemn them to eternal suffering because their parents raised them with different religious beliefs? They still believed in a God, in being good people, and treating all others with kindness and respect. So what&#039;s my point? I decided to reject the institution of my religion. Do you REALLY love the people you are trying to change? Well, from what I learned, in order to REALLY love someone and to respect them, you have to love and respect everything about them, including their personal decisions. Yes, you can believe that they are wrong. Yes you can tell them that. But, if you tell them in such a way that only ignites dislike, hatred, miscommunication, or any other negative effect, are you helping them? Are you changing their mind? Certainly not. I&#039;m all for helping people--it&#039;s a major part of my life--but you can never force a person to change....ESPECIALLY if you love them.

I&#039;m sorry guys, I never ment for this post to turn out so long. I just all of a sudden felt the need to express this. American--you really need to shut the hell up--you can&#039;t make an intelligent argument...if you can even CALL in an "argument"...to save your life. BW, I see that you are trying....however, please realize that your efforts are now in vain...people have plugged their ears and started humming. At least for my own personal sanity, have at least the respect for this forum as a community for strippers, people in the sex industry, and their supporters and patrons and just back out quiety. You won&#039;t change a single mind here--we&#039;ve ALL been confronted with this situation before (you&#039;re not the first to point this stuff out)--and we&#039;ve chosen this side of the fence time and time again--you will NOT be the one to change our minds.

Oh and btw, just so you know, I am not a stripper. I happen to enjoy these women and men very very much. I highly respect their opinions in all aspects of life. I also am a sex industry supporter/activist as a "hobby" (if you can really call it that). Please, if you have nothing constructive to offer, move on to a different forum. Thank you.

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 01:06 AM
Nah...I am not trying to piss people off.....



I know that, in responding, I&#039;m giving you exactly what you want. You have obviously posted this here for attention, to attempt to piss people off, and to stir up trouble.

You believe that men and women respond the same when looking at the opposite sex in the flesh? You believe that men get as emotionally turned on from reading romance novels and that is somehow equal? Sometimes to be treated equally (fairly) people have to be treated differently. For example, a person in a wheelchair cannot be just like everyone else and learn to walk up those stairs.....they would need a ramp to get into the same building. So using a different method (stairs for people that can walk...and ramp for those who cannot) is treating them equally which doesn&#039;t always mean the same. However, both end up with the same results which would be access to the building.


Let’s start with just one ridiculous claim: “the equivalent of men going to see strippers in a club is the same as women dating men.” This is absurd. Equivalency indicates EQUALNESS between two things, so, the equivalent of a male going to see female strippers is a female, going to see male strippers...which is equally as acceptable, and equally NOT CHEATING.

Not cheating in your opinion. I see love/relationships as being more than just physical it involves the heart (soul), and mind too. Since touching is only physical then that is only ONE way that cheating hasn&#039;t occured.


“when men go to strip clubs, they are cheating.” Sorry hon, but this is not the case. It may be easier for you to insult us by lumping us together with those “dirty whores” but the majority of dancers, including me, do not kiss customers, do not let them touch breasts, butt, or “vaginal area” to be sufficiently prim & proper for you (wouldn’t want to ‘de-humanize’ the pussy, LOL!) Do you think a man is cheating when he watches porn? I&#039;ve always defined cheating as having any kind of intimate physical contact (kissing, sex, blow job, touching privates, etc).

I hardly feel that women going to see naked women is equal to men going to see naked women. However, I think that women that go to see naked women with men might be the smartest ones...they get attention from the men (for being cool enough to go to that) without having to do any of the work...since the strippers are putting in all the effort for them.


“if men go to strip clubs, wouldn&#039;t it be a double standard if women were not allowed to equally indulge?” Women are allowed to equally indulge…I see women in my club all the time…and I have danced for them…and they LIKE it!! Not all women hate strippers…the ones who are confident in their relationships and their own sexuality love us for our eroticism, our beauty, and understand that we represent one aspect of the power of woman…not a weak, lowly creature, providing an object for men to abuse, but a “fantasy” that’s right, a “vision” to be admired, adored, and appreciated.

Right that is the attention that I was talking about...it is blunt...and not about control at all. I stare at things too....like the man at the mall who was picking his nose and wiping the buggers on the payphone. He had the control of my stare.....that doesn&#039;t mean that I respect him.


If you could ever see the way those eyes gaze up at you, you would drop all assertions that men “don’t respect” strippers. It is not a gaze of superiority, but one of submission…they are frozen by the beauty before them. Most of these customers would do whatever we asked them to. But it’s all part of the fantasy, of course. And women always have the option of going to a male strip club. That, not “dating,” is true EQUAL indulgence. The equivalent of a woman dating other men would be a man dating other women, and I can almost guarantee you that a strip club customer is NOT going to be dating one of the dancers, no matter how much he may want to.

Most likely b/c they want to have sex with you. Just a guess......


“Further, men that go to strip clubs are trying desperately to avoid a painful relationship with their object of desire.” If they are trying to AVOID relationship, why are we asked for our number multiple times a night?

The keyword in that sentence is that they CLAIM to have higher morals...in other words...in their heads...not reality. So that is exactly the type that would go to those clubs.


“Objectification due to emotional detachment and exposed vulnerabilities (nakedness) allow for unchallenged possession - thus ultimate feelings of manhood. The men MUST then look down upon the strippers since for them, they claim to possess, or have access to higher morals and values.” Wrong again. If they had “higher morals” they would not be in the club to begin with (according to your definition of morality.) Are the men propositioning us for sex more morally based than we are because they have their clothes on?

What is a whore and how is a whore different from strippers?


“If they placed themselves on the same level as the whores, they would become vulnerable which they have successfully avoided.” EXCUSE ME!!! This is utterly ridiculous. A WHORE is a prostitute. We are dancers. There is a HUGE difference.

I cannot find the part where I said that nakedness is abnormal. Nor do I feel that nudity is abnormal.


“You already are doing things that normal girls would not do, which makes what you are doing abnormal.” How sad that our world has created a situation where nudity is considered ABNORMAL. Nakedness is our natural state. We were born naked. The beautiful, natural, human body has been condemned so far that anyone willing to be comfortable in their own skin is considered “abnormal.”

Where are the naked men in the paradise of strip clubs? Since it is only women it is no paradise....


If you think back to the beginning of time, when Adam and Eve were naked in the garden of Eden, that was when true paradise existed.

“The Chef doesn’t sell himself – he sells food that he prepared, which means he has something left over to give his wife at the end of the day. Something that is his and hers only which no one else can have. Anyone can have a stripper. Anyone can have a Chef’s food but not anyone can have the Chef. His wife doesn’t get the “leftovers.””

Prostitutes also sell a fantasy...at the end of their day they have the money in their wallets plus their bodies to take home. It is ONLY physical sex which means the John doesn&#039;t really have her.....or know her....which makes her a fantasy to him. For prostitues it is a privilege for the men to see their bodies in motion too. Are their bodies worth less than yours? Prostitutes sell the fantasy that the man is wanted by her (which he isn&#039;t or she wouldn&#039;t leave after the job was done) and that he might actually get to have someone want and care about and notice him. It is a fantasy since she ONLY wants his money and not really him. He gets to have power over her body since he has the money. (She wouldn&#039;t get naked at all if there was not any money)
How is your body "for the most part" untouched? A prostitutes body is hers too. Not "anyone" can have a prostitute either...anyone with money can have sex with her but not anyone can have her for himself. I do not understand the difference between a prostitute and a stripper. I am not saying that there is not a difference, I am just saying that I don&#039;t understand what it could be.


I sell a fantasy, the privilege to view my body in motion, the visual art of striptease. I DO NOT SELL MYSELF—If this was the case, I would be having sex for money, and, once again, in case this hadn’t sunk in yet, we are dancers, NOT PROSTITUTES. I sell my dance, my eroticism, a visual stimulation, the illusion that he might, by some rare chance, be able to have me. My body is mine. At the end of the day, they have jerk-off material, i have the contents of their wallets…and my body is still completely intact, and, for the most part, untouched. Not anyone can have a stripper…yes, anyone with money can look at her, naked, but very few, actually, can HAVE her. And the ones who do “have” her, most likely are not paying for it! Anyone can view my art, but not anyone can have me.

How do you know that means respect?


You repeatedly say in your post that we are not respected, are looked down upon. This made me laugh, it is just foolish…have you been to a strip club lately? Do me a favor...go to a club and sit stage-side. When the dancer comes on, watch the men…the adoration and desire in their eyes…the way they will throw money if she so much as acknowledges his presence among the other customers…

That means that you feel OK...it doesn&#039;t mean that others feel OK about you (or badly either).


I NEVER feel vulnerable onstage.

This is exactly how someone that wants all the attention talks....especially if taken from another woman....and liking it that they are "above" that "bitch" he is with...


When I am naked, dancing free, the music pulsing through my body, and others look on, the men hungry to drink every little drop of that beautiful energy, begging with their eyes for me to even notice them, I feel empowered and strong, it&#039;s a rush for me....maybe I will catch your eye, for a second, and see another, less common, but equally easy to read gaze…it is the glare of a bitter woman who, as much as she hates it - oddly enough- cannot rip her eyes away from the sight before her…the woman who, at the very core of herself, whether she can admit it or not, would give anything to be in my 7 inch heels…but for whatever reason- her lack of self-confidence, level of attractiveness, conformity to societal definitions of “normalcy,” etc, etc…will never feel the high of being worshipped onstage, as a fantasy, yes, but all the same, a sexual goddess.…

And after you leave, men will grab your ass on the street, whistle, yell indecencies...you endure these things for free, while we go home with, more than most women can make in a month at low-respect jobs. They have to slave away for it…

And you said that *I* am the one in need of and wanting the [email protected][email protected]@?!


all I have to do is dance, be admired, continually complimented, and have fun talking to/hanging out with men (some of us actually ENJOY their presence, LOL)- all of which I happen to love.
Thank you for providing me with an excuse to procrastinate…I have a paper due at 9am, time to get on with more serious work…

If you aren&#039;t deprived of attention then why do you need and want so much of it...so much that you get a rush from it? If you didn&#039;t get that attention then you wouldn&#039;t get that huge rush right? Why do you let men have that much power over you? Without them, you wouldn&#039;t get that huge rush, be admired and so adored. Why do you need them to look at you so much while you are center stage? Do you always give all of your power over to men so that you can feel you are getting their full attention back in return just so you can experience being adored? I truly feel pity for the attention deprived. :) :puckerup: :)


hope you’re happy with all the attention this has gotten you…I truly feel pity for the attention deprived.
:) :puckerup: :)

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 01:20 AM
Ok I have finally read all the parts to this post and have gone to Alysabeth&#039;s website(her work makes sense to me) and I will now ask you questions.
"So the equivalent of men going to see strippers in a club is the same as women dating men (he is visually stimulated while she is emotionally stimulated



)"How do you get emotional stimulation out of taking a dollar from a guy sitting stageside?

I don&#039;t.....I think you may have misunderstood what I have written. I attempted to explain this better in the response I just made to Aphrodite. I hope that clears things up for you.



"Not to mention that by suggesting that women should have no problem with men going to strip clubs, you are saying that women are &#039;rewarded&#039; by men going to those clubs b/c then he will not cheat. " MOST,and I repeat, MOST men who go to strip clubs go home to their wives or girlfriends after the bar closes. When I go to stripclubs WITHOUT my wife I tend to come home ready to have some form of sexual relationship with her(it may be sex or it may actually just be cuddling).

That makes sense to me that most men do not get to have sex with the strippers. However, I view love/relationships as more than just physical sex. I have a question for you....since when you arrive home you are physically ready for sex it seems that it was not your wife that turned you on. If you are out with other women at the stripclub and getting turned on then how is that being with your wife? During sex aren&#039;t you thinking about what turned you on and therefore not really being with her? I am not naive enough to think that people are always 100% faithful in the mind, heart, etc. but when it is done purposely and often then doesn&#039;t that keep you at a distance from your real lover?

"Why are you trying to sabotage the goal of internal rewards that are brought about by a decent and healthy relationship? Aren&#039;t external rewards interfering with the relationship&#039;s earned benefits? If he already had internal benefits, he wouldn&#039;t need to be satisfied externally." I think you answer your own question there...Of course my wife and I must not have a "decent and healthy relationship" because not only is she a dancer and I a dj,but she allows me to go to stripclubs in general.
I could go on and on pointing out the discrepancies that I found in your rather long winded post,but I won&#039;t.I&#039;ll instead leave you with the same answer I give EVERYONE who says dancers are degrading themselves for money(because thats what I got out of your post). Being a dancer gives the woman POWER, she commands respect when she is on stage, men view her as more than a woman,she has in sense become their fantasy made flesh. As she dances for their dollars she has reversed the power struggle where it is a man has the power, women are the weaker sex. Men know they aren&#039;t allowed to touch and yet they sometimes spend their entire paycheck at the sc.Making woman the strong one and man the weaker sex.I know for a fact that at least 95% of these women aren&#039;t looking to be "emotionally stimulated" when they are dancing for my dollar, they are looking to(and thinking about) pay the rent, car payment etc....


"Farrah, Vanilla Dog, Katrina and I all on one thread. It could get better. Bridgette hasn&#039;t seen this yet. It&#039;s almost funny how they know not what they have brought down upon them."
For some reason this has me scared right down to the depths of my soul, and is the reason I cut my responses short....I don&#039;t want to take their fun away!

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 02:08 AM
Dear PoleCat,

I really enjoyed reading your response. It was by far one of the most interesting that I have read yet. Although, I have enjoyed so many of them and reading all of the great comments.

I was very surprised to see that you were a male after reading the name "polecat"...are you a male stripper?


... other than a general ideology that exposing one&#039;s body is somehow degrading or objectifying..

I don&#039;t believe that it is always degrading or objectifying to expose one&#039;s body.....


That being said- as a man, I can put on a pair of long shorts, shoes and go outside and mow my lawn without much ado. Neighbor&#039;s will wave hello. The families surrounding about will gather their children into their cars without any notice. All is well. It&#039;s a sunny California day and it&#039;s considered socially tolerable. A male body-building competition on TV can be flipped by with a man wearing nothing more than a speedo and flexing for the camera, and there isn&#039;t some incessant rush to cover the eyes of any children present.

Very good points!! I agree that people freak out over women in bikinis and skimpy clothes (not naked) while men in speedos and wearing skimpy clothing is for the most part acceptable. On the flip side, naked women are acceptable while nude men are not. In the movies, it is very common to see naked women while men tend to freak out over seeing naked men (homophobic factor is a great excuse).... Women are much more criticized if they go to male strip shows compared to men who see women stripping.
Why is it &#039;OK&#039; for women to be nude but not men?

By contrast, a woman wearing a two-piece bathing suit outside may inspire discomfort. Home owner&#039;s associations may create limits to where women can wear bathing attire and parents might feel it inappropriate for front yard display.


Television shows like Bay Watch get higher ratings and generate discussion based on how many scantily clad women are present, etc.etc. Starting to see the double-standard?

Another great point. I believe that women often use their bodies to try to get attention from men that are already taken....it seems to be quite an ego boost for them. Maybe that is why women wearing skimpy clothes are frowned upon? Also, I believe that men use the homophobic excuse as a way to maintain power over women....only women can be nude but not us....we get to see all but you do not. Of course I am only guessing since I do not know.

Obviously, this is "all good" as anyone clever enough to recognize this can therefore capitalize on this.


Opinions such as Beautiful Woman&#039;s perpetuate the double-standard and hold the equality of women at bay by continuing the pathos that dictates the human form is considered objectifying and sexual, but only on a gender discrimated basis.

I do not understand what you mean by this. How my view helps perpetuate the double-standard that hold women at bay? I missed HOW/WHY that is the case.


True, if you travel overseas to Europe, or other locales where human nudity is a bit more liberal, "stripclubs" take on a whole different form and the money being made for the same offerings in the US is totally different.

How is it different? What is the different form?


Moreover, what BW&#039;s standpoint is solely based upon is that women somehow are missing natural and biological reactions to physical form.

I don&#039;t believe that women are missing this at all...but I do understand what you mean here. I believe that thru our culture women have been "trained" to not recognize those clues as easily as men do. From that perspective I believe that something is missing which is sad.


This is the biggest sociological myth ever created. Only through societal conditioning has this myth stood to last as long as it has. This is a role that has been inflicted upon women, namely by men, throughout history. These are, in a backwards male kinda-way, the very values Alysabeth’s site is trying to dispell. The same male-created doctrines that defined that women should stay virgins until marriage, shouldn&#039;t hold public offices, nor have the right to vote also dictate that it isn&#039;t "proper" for a woman to expose her body, nor have the natural arousal at seeing physical form.

I completely agree with what you have written above except I completely missed how Alysabeth&#039;s site attempted to dispell those myths.


Women are finally becoming empowered enough to dispell both of these myths, but there is still a very, very long way to go.

I completely agree with the statement you wrote above.


I swear I am going to write a book someday entitled, "Men are from Earth, Women are from Earth- deal with it."... founded on the same principles that Alysabeth has tried to introduce. The more of this gap that we try to artificially place between men and women, the longer it will take for full equality to be realized. For now, it&#039;s created a viable source of good income, but it IS evolving into much more as forward progress in our society improves.

I agree with what you have written above however I still failed to find any evidence of what you have mentioned on Alysabeth&#039;s site. I found her words to be defensive, attacking, immature, and bullying....it completely turned me off. I felt that her facts were really opinions which she made up.....twisted facts....I could go on and on..... I like what you have written though and I feel that your words come across clearly & send a strong message.
Even though I disagree with a lot of what Alysabeth had to say, if it had made sense and was based on facts then I would have been OK with it. Maybe I was just so turned off with how she presented her information that I just could not understand her messages b/c I didn&#039;t see anything positive or what I felt to be truthful in them.

Some direct rebuttals in relation to all that has been said above:

So the equivalent of men going to see strippers in a club is the same as women dating men (he is visually stimulated while she is emotionally stimulated). So when you look at this from a female perspective, when men go to strip clubs, they are cheating.


This is, again, using a different measuring stick based on gender. As has already been mentioned, more and more women are attending stripclubs as customers.... and obtaining similar entertainment from such activity....

OK....WHY are women attending stripclubs to view nude women? What other similar entertainment from such activity do you mean?

It is downright sexist to suggest the kind of fulfilment a woman receives from a date is somehow equivalent to the fulfillment a man receives from viewing an attractive woman.


What is objectionable about strip clubs, then, is its abusive and degrading portrayal of females and female sexuality, not its sexual content or explicitness. Strip clubs tell lies about women and promote destructive behaviors by providing a source of defense mechanisms.


Females and female sexuality is being portrayed the same as male and male sexuality. Physical, provocative, exhibitive and liberal. There are no "lies" being told about women, but alternatively truths.

When & where are naked men seen as physical, provocative, exhibitive, and liberal? What are the truths that are being told? Why aren&#039;t men on display for dollars for their truths?


Because we consider it sociologically deplorable for women to be sexual animals (after all, that role is set aside specifically for men, right?), it&#039;s more of an unveiling that it&#039;s okay for women to be proud of themselves, their form, and receive empowerment for such.

Why do you believe that cultures have set aside most sexual roles typically for males?


Why not have a bar where men can go for great conversation with pretty women where they can be assured 5 minutes of great conversation or having a dance partner (fully clothed) if they pay for it? Can&#039;t women be visually appealing in a sexy outfit?


Obviously you&#039;ve never heard of "gown" clubs. You also haven&#039;t spent any time at all reading this forum that you decided to just drop your 4-flusher turd upon. The obvious sign of a troll is someone that with their first few posts are given without any form of initiation to the content provided therein.

I&#039;ve vaguely heard about "gown" clubs. What are they? You are wrong b/c I have read many of the posts on this website before I ever posted anything. I just didn&#039;t quote them b/c I didn&#039;t set up an account initially. I have not read the entire site though.


There are NUMEROUS threads here concerning the upper-upper scale clubs, gown-clubs and the incredible difficulty of being hired at them. These "strippers" are usually the highest paid in the nation (if not world) and have to be a cut above on all fronts. The most beautiful, the most talented, the most educated and charismatic. As these fetch the highest dollar from men, wouldn&#039;t this completely blow all your assumptions out of the water? If the single most desirable (and highest priced) experience is indeed the conversationalists and non-nude/non-stripping gown-club women, this provides solid proof of Alysabeth&#039;s fundamental concepts.

Now, I did not know this so I learned something new. Thank you. I would like to hear more about what a gown club is.


If a man can get a female to expose herself, then he doesn&#039;t have to expose himself, which is a form of abuse.

Last quote (for now.. I&#039;m starting my own novel sized reply!)-
It&#039;s even worse abuse for a male (or female) to condemn a woman for simply exposing her body. It&#039;s dehumanizing and sexist to suggest it&#039;s inappropriate behavior for one to keep themselves "underwraps" simply due to a twisted societal identity... and role "gifted" to them by pressures that are unnatural.

Simply exposing her body isn&#039;t the case....it isn&#039;t like she is lying on a nude beach. She is trying to get attention for something in return. She isn&#039;t minding her own business. It is not nudity that I have a problem or issue with.

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 02:37 AM
BW you want me to read your whole post!? ok whatever, here goes......


...According to what you&#039;ve written, you seem to feel that women should not change the minds of men but men should work to change the minds of women...


I don&#039;t feel this is accurate. I think it was an example, but it works both ways. Many dancers SO&#039;s don&#039;t like them dancing, we have to try and convince them that it is ok and they have nothing to fear. It is not nice to put such limits on your partner. My husband does many things I do not agree with. I have no right to stop him from such activity. The only thing I ask him to not do is be sexual with another female. And I do belive I have a right to that. Before we got married we made lines that equaled cheating and not cheating.


I agree with what you said above. I did not find her comment accurate either for the very reasons you stated. Thanks!!


<<...is that the girls in the magazines and the clubs are no real threat to your relationship.>>
..I am not sure ... how it would not directly involve or possibly be a threat toward others?


Because he is with "you", he comes home to "you". He can&#039;t even talk to a picture or a video, even webcams he generally can&#039;t meet in real life....


Why is the word YOU in quotes? As in...he is with "you", he comes home to "you".????


...it seems obvious that men feel some sort of connection when they are visually stimulated. At the same time, women tend to feel their connections when they are emotionally stimulated...


So? Most of the connection is in the groin. Sex and Love are diffrent things, you can have sex without love and love without sex.


Most? I have no idea. Big part of it...I&#039;d assume so.

..women see porno and strip clubs as "no big deal" because they have a hard time understanding why men get so excited over them...



I totally get porn.

Please explain it to me then.....

I like porn more then my husband. Beutiful naked women stimulate me. But porn is still no big deal. I don&#039;t mind my husband getting lap dances from other women, he is still coming home with me at the end of the night.

....suppose a man had $50 to spend on his desires so he went out and bought an electric screwdriver b/c he loves tools. If he then bought his wife an electric screwdriver with the $50 that she could spend on her desires she most likely would be unhappy. She most likely wouldn&#039;t dislike the screwdriver and would likely use it and even need it in the future (everyone uses a screwdriver at one point or another) but if she could choose how to spend the money based on her desires she most likely would buy something like Estee Lauder make-up instead.




Actually I would be happy if my husband bought me a $50 tool. Prefrably one of those battery operated multi-screwdriver/drill ones. Those are cool. That would make taking my computer apart much easier and the cordless drill feature would make building things in general much better. I would not buy makeup. I do not like makeup, I only wear it at work, only because I have to. Yeah, sure I probably wouldnt go buy a screwdriver if given $50. I would save the money, but if told to buy something, I would probably buy one of those littermaid self-cleaning cat boxes. That would make my husband and I both happy as I wouldnt have to clean the box twice a day and he couldnt smell it anymore, at least not really.

It was a general example...there are always exceptions but I am glad to see that I got my point across.


Also I don&#039;t see how this has anything to do with porn....?

Most likely nothing since I tried to avoid talking about porn in my post (the print and video kind anyways.....) I did my best to mostly stick to strip clubs....the point of the message board.

..If a women dated other men, would that be OK if she didn&#039;t have sex with him? .... So, if men go to strip clubs, wouldn&#039;t it be a double standard if women were not allowed to equally indulge?...




I have lots of male friends. I go and see them, and talk with them, and go places with them. According to your thoery I am cheating. Should I cease to have male friends? Should I only talk with females?

Friends are fine...we all need them and should have them. Dating others when married is another thing.....are you dating them?

If it is &#039;honest&#039; then how is it also a fantasy?




We sell a fantasy. We do not sell sex. We sell the fantasy of sex. Sex is mostly in your brain anyway, male or female. Are books bad because they take you to a diffrent world? What about movies? Dreams?

How is sex mostly in your brain? I am not sure what you mean by that.

If they placed themselves on the same level as the whores, they would become vulnerable which they have successfully avoided. Therefore, strippers are props, visual aides, objects, and symbols used for a ritual act for the man to act out.




why are you interchanging "strippers" and "whores" here? Or are you trying to say that they don&#039;t see "whores" and we are the replacements?

I thought that whores and strippers were the same thing. I thought the words were interchangable.

...and if strip clubs were actually beneficial then men couldn&#039;t become addicted to them. ...




How is somthing addictive always bad? Caffine is addictive, but sometimes it is good. The internet is addicive but are all of the people reading this doing something bad?

You are right...my wording on that sentence wasn&#039;t clear and the message that I meant to convey didn&#039;t come out right. The context that was around that sentence hopefully portrayed what I meant to explain but I&#039;d have to go back and read it - I can do that later if anyone is interested.

Comfort (like alcohol and drugs can bring people) does not equal a solution.




what about prozac? zanx? wellbutrin? I don&#039;t agree with them, but a lot of people can&#039;t function without them.

Those type of drugs are meant to assist a chemical imbalance which is something that the person cannot control. That would be like blaming someone that has a cold for becoming sick. I don&#039;t know anyone that MUST have alcohol or illegal drugs to function (unless maybe something like marijuana to help cancer patients have an appetite or something like that....) When I said the word "drugs" I meant things like XTC, LSD, etc....


<<When a customer gets to know a stripper and then suddenly tells her that he&#039;s grown to think too highly of her to get dances, it doesn&#039;t flatter or touch her. That customer immediately becomes a total disappointment,>>

he above isn’t respecting her “too much” because before there was NO respect to begin with.


IMO, when a guy uses a line like that, it is a copout. He is really saying "i dont have enough money to buy any more dances from you, will you please give me something for free? I complimented you, dosn&#039;t that mean something to you?.... I have been told by so many people that to move to the next leval I need to respect her, well I told her that, why won&#039;t she sleep with me?" whatever. personally I dont care if he respects me or not, thats why its a dissapointment, at work trade cash for respect? no thanks.



I agree with what you said above. I thought the exact same thing when I read that...what a cop-out.....that is exactly why I didn&#039;t like Alysabeth&#039;s website...the entire thing seemed like she missed the points of reality.....(my opinion entirely of course)......I am glad to hear a different perspective from you.....

<<She can tell you&#039;re talking about her, and turning slightly away and saying things about her to your friends under your breath won&#039;t hide what you&#039;re doing.>>
Strippers are just an exhibit because that is the entire point of them.




Yeah, we are too look at. But if you are at the zoo and you don&#039;t like snakes, why are you in the reptile exibit? Why not go look at the monkeys or somthing? If you think we are too skinnny or too fat, or too blonde, or have too many tatoos, or too short, too tall, whatever. Don&#039;t make it so we can hear your comments. Keep them to yourselves. Find a girl you like, and get a dance from her. Thats what I think she was trying to say.

If she was trying to say that she didn&#039;t get the point across very well....I seemed to entirely miss it anyhow.....I didn&#039;t cut and paste all of her writings or my posting would have been over 50+ pages....but I felt that she meant it as.....she should get respect always from customers...well, if you are standing there naked for men to enjoy looking at then WHY do they have to respect you? They don&#039;t....which to me means that the strippers aren&#039;t really the ones with the power over the men......their positive rush from attention and adoration comes from how the men respond to them......if the stripper is a fantasy and she isn&#039;t HIS fantasy then why should he have to pretend to like her? He doesn&#039;t have to gaze upon her.... He can be polite or not...his choice.....

Ok, thats what I have to say about part 1. Now I will take a brake before wading through part 2.....

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 02:45 AM
Ca$h,

If that is you then you are so pretty. Do you only want cash from men or do you also want to know the real them?

Susan

Dear Seraya,

I gave you a compliment b/c in your photo you look elegant. I have no interest or desire in you since I am a female & I only crave men sexually. After I complimented you you seemed to "shrug" me off and insult me. Do you always respond that way when someone says something nice to you? Good luck with your getting rich desires. Hope it all works out for you!!

:-X :-X :bedtime: :curlers: :juggle:


ok honey i&#039;m sorry i was not on earlier to answer your questions yes dear at the moment i&#039;m only seaking CA$H .....Ialready have a husband so therefore i have no interest in knowing anyone .....do you know anyone giving away CA$H..give them my number its 1800 MAKEMERICH

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 02:56 AM
Maybe we are all a bit tired of this topic, but I believe that the problem with your arguments Beautiful, is that they are unresearched, naive, and not well thought out.

Interesting observation b/c I have also been criticized of spending too much time researching and looking up this very topic. I think that a lot of your comments toward me have actually been the complete opposite of what you state. I haven&#039;t read the rest of your post yet but I am going to see if that is true as I continue to read your other observations.


I do not see any critial reasoning presented above, thus I cannot really retort.

You may disagree but that doesn&#039;t mean it is not "critical reasoning".....


If you heard about a bust in Orlando and are curious about it, why not research the public records to find out about the scale of prostitution that was discovered in that club?

I would do that because???


Also...the poor Socratic logic was a play on your poor logic...but I guess you missed that one????

I just thought it was a play on your poor logic since you "proved" that I am a man by using [email protected][email protected]


Last question since I have to go to my demeaning/degrading job stealing away your man...how old are you? I would understand if you are under 21, just starting college, and are "learning" about the world, but your principles seem to be those of a child.....

I thought you did not understand anything that I have stated?

Kind regards...Katrina Ad Hominem



Your words do not seem kind to me at all.

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 02:58 AM
It&#039;s archaic to NOT be a feminist stripper

How is a stripper also a feminist?

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 03:01 AM
Where are all the naked men for us women to view? HOW are the gaps being bridged?


And speaking of Paglia, she&#039;s a feminist writer who has written for Playboy and Esquire... you know evil men&#039;s magazines. The gaps are being bridged, hallaluja! And Blade (was it you who said this? If not.. apologies) "Men are from Earth, Women are from Earth... deal!" should be written. Oh yes!

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 03:08 AM
Why do you have "complete faithfulness" inside quotation marks?

No one else reflected, just yourselves? When you come home from strip clubs all hot and heavy and ready to go for sex is just your wife being reflected there too?


I&#039;m curious to know what the married dancers have to say about this....
I know for a fact that my wife has the kind of relationship that involves"complete faithfulness"
When we look into each others eyes there is no one else reflected, just ourselves.

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 03:15 AM
I have the distinct feeling:


1. You and BW are one and the same...this is the last time I am going to bother with this post. It is obvious that you are a troll and therefore deserve NO MORE of my time or thought.

Wrong!!


2. Your SO frequents strip clubs and you just cannot get over your insecurities that he may "take off with a stripper".

Wrong!!


If you are so insecure with your place in your man&#039;s life...may I suggest that you get up off your fat, lazy ass...get into shape...buy some nice lingerie...learn how to dance...and then learn how to please your man.

Wrong!! OK, OK...I admit I can be lazy at times but I am not fat our out of shape and I love pleasing my man in sexy lingerie. Plus, I know how to dance in several different styles.


This way...he&#039;ll be more likely to stay at home with you instead of spending your money on me at my club. Of course...even with all of that, it may be a long shot if you talk down to him (as I am sure that you do) as much as you talk down to a bunch of people you do not know.

Wrong!!

End of discussion.

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 03:24 AM
I agree that your job isn&#039;t entirely who you are. I am not sure why I would need to make a distinction between who you "play" and who you really are for one simple reason.....this message board and topic is about who you "play" and not who you really are. Therefore, the discussion consists about fantasy....strippers....and who you "play"......
I wasn&#039;t aware that I was trying to "save" you or "help you"....I don&#039;t recall offering that to anyone on this message board.....Sorry that you read that into what I wrote but I don&#039;t recall saying anything about that....
You have some good points and I appreciate your insights. Thanks for responding.


Whoever you are BW/American/whatever, you can read into stripping a whole lot of things, and you certainly won&#039;t be the first to do so, but at the end of the day for most of us, it&#039;s just our job. Nothing more, nothing less. There is a market for strippers because men like naked women. And they like talking to pretty women in a fantasy environment. And they are willing to pay for it. That&#039;s pretty much all there is to it. Our jobs have very little to do with who any of us are as people or any insecurities or personal problems or relationship problems we might have. I&#039;m pretty damn well-adjusted if I do say so myself. But it&#039;s really beside the point. You&#039;ve failed to make the distinction between the fantasy women we "play" in a club, and the real women we are all the time. We don&#039;t need to be saved, we&#039;re not in need of professional help. We&#039;re just regular people with a controversial job.

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 03:35 AM
As far as objectifying women goes....seeing a dancer performing her J-O-B in no way shape or form turns me on, nor do I see them as an object.

In one of your posts you mentioned that when you come home after being in a strip club you are ready to have sex or sometimes cuddle (can&#039;t recall exact words)....if you are ready to go right when you get home then how is it that you were not turned on at the clubs? That was pretty personal information that you shared with me....I am a complete stranger to you.....so I thank you for being so honest, open, and candid.


They are co-workers, actually since I am paid by the dancers they are bosses,and as bosses/co-workers they get the same amount of respect I give to any woman(be they dancers,my mom,my sister,my daughters,etc...)

How many daughters do you have? When they grow up would you like it if they worked in strip clubs? Do you feel that the men in strip clubs treat women with enough respect for your daughters to be able to work in the clubs? I hope I am not getting too personal, if so then please let me know.

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 03:55 AM
I do like men--most of my friends are male--girls can be very catty and competitive. And you can bet for DAMN sure I have more respect for human life *and each and every person&#039;s individual RIGHTS* than you will ever know in your sheltered and pathetic life. Guess what?! I have never been in a male dominated relationship....I was the "head" of my household.

I agree that a lot of women are catty and competitive which is why I also have more male friends than I have female friends. Now, being catty and competitive is how I felt that feminist stripper board came across......Alyasabeth&#039;s...
I am guessing that is why many women (and possibly men too) do not respect strippers. They are viewed as "attention whores".....
I am curious....WHY do you strippers feel that a lot of men and women in society do not respect you for your profession?
As for men, they strive for power using a different method...males are hierarchal (pyramid style) with their power seeking...and they try to be on the top of the pyramid and enjoy knocking others off....."king of the hill" and seeing others below them..... Maybe that is why they enjoy strip clubs so much? I don&#039;t believe that strip clubs are about sex (b/c there is no sex)....it is all fantasy....the men dominate the women and have power over them.....(how men get to power).....
Just curious, since you were the "head" of your household does that make you one of those competitive females that you might not want to be friends with? If that&#039;s the case and it worked for you then all is good.


So that kinda fucks up you&#039;re psychotic theory huh? Aww poor baby. I don&#039;t want power and control because I feel that I am inferior (hell, I GET power and control because THEY are inferior--lol! hahaha).

I just answered my own question!! :>:> Maybe I should try reading ahead next time.


And I have never used deceit or manipulation in my LIFE.

UUUUMMMMM......


As for the rest of this crap....don&#039;t get me started! BW, be very careful, you&#039;re treading on very thin ice. If you thought that this was a website for those stereotypical, gossipy, bitchy, money grubbing, uneducated, stippers you were SORELY mistaken. These are the best of the best and they know more as a group than you could ever fathom. I&#039;d suggest you tuck your tail between your legs and respectfully back out of this forum.


Whatever.....I don&#039;t respond positively to threats.....As for what I thought about what I&#039;d find on this website.....unless you ask me you will never know.....

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 04:04 AM
This thread has been reported, but I&#039;m not removing or locking it yet.

I can see that the comments on my post disagree with most people&#039;s views on this website. However, I felt that was one of the reasons for having this website....so people can express their views and get feedback. My views have obviously hurt some feelings but I didn&#039;t intend to name call with my views.


I also wonder what you think of me. I am an infrequent club go-er - once a year...hell...about two years now...actually...ah, let&#039;s leave it at two years.

I understand that you run this message board...is that correct? Did you also start it? If you run it and/or started it then I assume that you have a large interest in this topic? If you are an infrequent club go-er then to me that means you have a small interest in strip clubs. Am I missing something?


And for the record, they are not the same poster...but it&#039;s obvious they know each other outside of the boards - same organization perhaps...


Thanks for clearing that up. I do not belong to any organization or church....nothing of the sort.

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 04:14 AM
It was very clear from the beginning that neither one of these posters
B.W nor America wanted to discuss topics or have a civil debate.

Really??



IMO they came here for the sole purpose of bashing and belittling dancers and industry.

Really??


I have made a few intelligent comments and reacted to the put downs with put downs of my own.
Having said that, I don&#039;t think this thread will teach me anything but, that there are still people in this world with nothing better to do than ATTACK others.

Farrah Holiday


Farrah,

I have received a lot of responses concerning my posts from many people on this board. Some were rude, some were polite, and some were a combo of both. Out of all the people that have replied I have felt that your comments have been the most rude and filled with the most put-downs. Your replies have generally consisted of a couple sentences that were just put-downs and had nothing to do with the overall content of my post. I have felt that you have only wanted to attack me and I do not feel that you have contributed positively to my post b/c as far as I can tell it seems like you didn&#039;t even read it. You may feel that way about me but I feel that way about you.
If you would like to respond with intelligent comments, then I would be more than happy to talk about them with you. Even if I disagree with you....which I am guessing will most likely be the case.
You are right, I have given you some rude replies back to your put-downs. So maybe your sole purpose is bashing those that disagree with your views? I have no idea what your intentions are or have been.....

Bye,

Susan

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 04:28 AM
I find it pleasurable to look at beautiful forms. Bodies are natural and beautiful. Why not enjoy it?

Who says this shouldn&#039;t be enjoyed?


If you would open your mind and allow yourself to see what others see for one moment, you might realize that it is not so dirty after all. It sounds like you are so uptight because you&#039;re trying to live by rules that others have imposed upon you. Allow yourself to be natural, don&#039;t fight feelings.

How do you know what I find to be dirty or not? Especially after I have stated that I don&#039;t find or feel that nakedness is objectionable. Exactly what rules have been imposed on me that I&#039;m trying to live by? Feelings are followed by thoughts and nice vice versa..... Why is that important? Because it seems that you are saying that feelings are based on nature which is truth or reality....when actually that is not the case. Spoiled brats have lots of feelings and feel that they deserve to have & treat others however they want regardless.....is that natural and therefore right? Nah...those feelings are followed by the thought that the brat thinks he/she deserves more and/or better than others.


Close-mindedness is miserable, it causes hatred and division. Trying to close down your feelings of sexuality only leads to anxiousness and anger. That is what I&#039;m seeing here. I&#039;ve got an idea for you. Go out and buy a Playboy and a Playgirl magazine. Buy some sex toys. Buy some sexy lingerie and seduce your husband tonight.

Trying to close down my feelings of sexuality??? I am doing that how??? You said that you are seeing that here....based on what? How do you know if I have sexy lingerie and sex toys or not? How do you know if I seduce my man or not?


You might find that you actually have fun for once. If God didn&#039;t want us to be sexual creatures, he wouldn&#039;t have made us this way. Go with the feelings.

You are making quite a few assumptions about my personal life which yoy know nothing about.


And here. You need these.

:chillpill: :chillpill: :chillpill: :chillpill: :chillpill: :chillpill: :chillpill: :chillpill:

Yeah you&#039;re absolutely right...I do need those chillpills...and so does my man.....b/c our sex life is sizzling HOT!!!

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 04:34 AM
I like your post b/c it seems sensible and mature. I don&#039;t understand everything but I respect what you&#039;ve written. Thank you for sharing and for taking the time to tell about yourself and your life. It sounds like your decisions are well thought out and like you are comfortable with your choices. Who could argue with that?

Good luck! I hope to hear from you again!

Susan



You mean it is against what YOU feel love is. I feel that YOU are the one struggling to learn how to truly love. If you truly love people, you will not judge them based on color, religion, profession or opinions. Yet, you are the one who has come here and bashed us for being dancers. You tell us that we do not know what true satisfying, faithful love is...and you have no clue as to who we are or anything else that matters. I love my fiance. I love my daughter. In fact, I love my daughter so much that I quit my 9-5 job making 40 a year so that I could stay home and raise her myself. When I go to work, my fiance stays with her. My daughter is always with the people who love and care for her. I love all of the women on this board...granted, we may not see eye to eye on everything, but they are still wonderful people. I will not judge them for who they are or what they do. Life is about experience. We are all here to experience. I enjoy experiencing my sensuality in a club environment. That does not make me incapable of loving outside of the club environment. It does not make me any less of a human being. It does not make me an "abuser" by accepting money for doing so. Everyone is equal in the game. If you choose not to experience this aspect in your life in this way...then that is your choice. As soon as we are done experiencing certain things in our lives, then we will make concious choices and move on. We don&#039;t need anyone to hold the bible over our heads and ride our backs screaming of the damnation on our lives and the "I am holier than thou" attitude.

The only thing that you have proven in this thread is that you are against stripping. That is fine. In fact, that is better than fine, because if you feel that your quality of life is better because of it, then you are in a very good place. HOWEVER, that does not mean that everyone feels the same way you do. It does not mean that someone feels that the quality of their lives are diminished by being a stripper...in fact, I feel that stripping has given me a lot more than any other job could give me...just the opportunity to spend all day with my daughter every day. It is worth more than any amount of money in the world. I am a respectable woman because I make the choices that give me the most out of what I want in my life. I am respectable because I am working to help pay bills and give my daughter time with her mommy everyday. I am not sucking the government dry by sponging off welfare...even though my tax dollars have paid for that. I am respectable because I realize the power of sensuality and sexuality. I am respectable because I choose to be in a relationship that gives me the freedom to make choices about what I want to experience...and supports me through those experiences...and would be there for me no matter what. He doesn&#039;t stay because I have a great body or because I am beautiful...he stays because he sees me for Who I Am...a loving, caring, kind, forgiving, trustworthy, non-judgmental, accepting, powerful, joyful, intelligent, and free-spirited soul. That&#039;s why he stays...and those are the same reasons I love him and choose to spend my life with him.

My last post was posted out of anger. And I apologize for the rude things that were said...however, you have shown so little respect for the CHOICES that every single woman in the world has decided to make and experience. You are trying to degrade that experience. There is so much more to life than judging others...maybe it is time for you to sit back and just let this all go. You have made your choices...the most loving thing that you could do for yourself and everyone else is to let them make their choices and experience what consequences those choices bring.

Have a good day.

polecat
02-27-2004, 04:39 AM
Greetings BeautifulWoman,


I was very surprised to see that you were a male after reading the name "polecat"...are you a male stripper?

Negative. Although I did bounce for a stripclub several years ago. The handle is simple wordplay on being a Polish Leo.


I agree that people freak out over women in bikinis and skimpy clothes (not naked) while men in speedos and wearing skimpy clothing is for the most part acceptable. On the flip side, naked women are acceptable while nude men are not. In the movies, it is very common to see naked women while men tend to freak out over seeing naked men (homophobic factor is a great excuse).... Women are much more criticized if they go to male strip shows compared to men who see women stripping. Why is it &#039;OK&#039; for women to be nude but not men?

That personifies the double-standard AND the controlling factor- men; male-dominated fundamentals and a male-dominated culture. A heterosexual man doesn&#039;t want to see another man naked, so therefore this becomes the guideline. A male also enjoys seeing female nudity, but with circumstances (i.e. can&#039;t be his wife, his girlfriend, his relatives, etc.etc.).

Women aren&#039;t supposed to be sexual animals by this set of doctrines. They aren&#039;t allowed to get aroused from male nudity and they are condemned as such. It&#039;s simply old-school "un-ladylike" and ghastly improper. These are the walls that are being torn down because it&#039;s unnatural and controlling.


I believe that women often use their bodies to try to get attention from men that are already taken....it seems to be quite an ego boost for them.

Covers both genders. A married woman is also a target for a more zealous single male. Chalk it up to human nature- the kind described here exists in both genders. You just see more emphasis on the female perspective since a man that goes around sleeping around with married women is socialized as a "stud"- where a woman that sleeps around with married men is a "slut" or "whore" or similar. Mainstream attention always focuses on the negative.


Maybe that is why women wearing skimpy clothes are frowned upon? Also, I believe that men use the homophobic excuse as a way to maintain power over women....only women can be nude but not us....we get to see all but you do not. Of course I am only guessing since I do not know.

Pretty close. It&#039;s more of the "slut" or "whore" syndrome. Women should be devices/objects for the male ego, and therefore not allowed to get their ya&#039;ya&#039;s by Christian, Muslim, Catholic or any other founding values.


I do not understand what you mean by this. How my view helps perpetuate the double-standard that hold women at bay? I missed HOW/WHY that is the case.

To put it simply- to consider a woman who is capitalizing on the wrongful basis in our society as being somewhat lesser of a person or being debased/objectified is feeding the very basis they are dispelling by doing such. They are taking something wrongfully "taboo" and proving daily it shouldn&#039;t be "taboo"... and those that still consider it as such propensifies the myth.


How is it different? What is the different form?

This was in reference to stripclubs overseas/Europe. The clubs there PAY the strippers and tipping is almost non-existent, compared to the model in the USA where women PAY the clubs to work in them and work entirely from tips. MANY of the Euro/Amsterdam clubs resort to selling sex-services/brothel-like experiences since nudity just doesn&#039;t sell when it&#039;s dominant in normal society.


I agree with what you have written above however I still failed to find any evidence of what you have mentioned on Alysabeth&#039;s site. I found her words to be defensive, attacking, immature, and bullying....it completely turned me off. I felt that her facts were really opinions which she made up.....twisted facts....I could go on and on.....

That&#039;s unfortunately how most people view this kind of subject.. at first. It&#039;s taken from a pompous, empowered standpoint but has to be a bit dramatic and strong in order to make an impact. The fundamental values are sound, but the presentation is very egotistical. I think the more exposure you have to the subject matter, the less loathesome you&#039;ll find her words to be.


OK....WHY are women attending stripclubs to view nude women? What other similar entertainment from such activity do you mean?

It&#039;s because they are finally realizing it&#039;s OKAY to find sexuality (and in public!) arousing. Even heterosexual women are starting to find the stripclub experience fascinating as it shows women being sexual animals and the response given to them by men. It&#039;s even more empowering if these women are brought IN by men in order to demonstrate it&#039;s okay and acceptable.

Male reviews, cross-dressing clubs and the like are also becoming more popular. As time goes by, the social ramifications for seeking sexually interesting entertainment is reduced. Years ago, people had to stand in the rain in trenchcoats to see pornography. Today, it&#039;s a multi-billion dollar industry piped into the homes of doctor&#039;s, lawyer&#039;s, school teachers and yes, women. While I don&#039;t consider pornography predominantly linked to stripclubs, I do see it&#039;s mainstream acceptance as the first wall broken to reduce the social ramifications towards interest in sexual entertainment.


When & where are naked men seen as physical, provocative, exhibitive, and liberal? What are the truths that are being told? Why aren&#039;t men on display for dollars for their truths?

Men have always been declared by society as the predators.. the hunters. It&#039;s considered "manly" to have sex with multiple partners, to be sexually promiscuous, exhibitive, and aggressive.

It&#039;s not on display for dollars because it&#039;s accepted and expected behavior. Obviously, you wouldn&#039;t pay to watch someone eat- there is nothing "taboo" or unusual about it.


Why do you believe that cultures have set aside most sexual roles typically for males?

Because all societies and cultures were built and formed by males. It&#039;s all about control. What you can&#039;t control goes into bondage. Not a new concept at all.. and is pretty well illustrated in (of all places) the Bible.


I&#039;ve vaguely heard about "gown" clubs. What are they? You are wrong b/c I have read many of the posts on this website before I ever posted anything. I just didn&#039;t quote them b/c I didn&#039;t set up an account initially. I have not read the entire site though.

Hostess/gown clubs and the upper-upper scale clubs like you find in NY/Manhattan are where VIP&#039;s aren&#039;t $200-$300 but usually $1K+, and the women do the least amount of nudity/stripping.


Simply exposing her body isn&#039;t the case....it isn&#039;t like she is lying on a nude beach. She is trying to get attention for something in return. She isn&#039;t minding her own business. It is not nudity that I have a problem or issue with.

Nudity and displaying sexual prowess. Men are allowed (and expected) to exhibit sexual prowess do this in the everyday, normal bar/club environment. It&#039;s socially deplorable for a woman to do this anywhere *except* in a stripclub. This is why it&#039;s for-pay and considered taboo, and why it becomes a contested issue. But it is becoming more popular as time goes by.

Ten years ago, a woman that showed an interest in pornography or seeing arousing materials of a physical nature were unacceptable. Today, the current teenage generation rising up through the ranks- the boys consider a girl that enjoys pornography and nudity a rare and precious find.

By the same token, ten years ago male "flashers" were a shocking and criminal thing. It was a monthly occurance where some pervert in an overcoat would terrorize the female dorms/sorority houses around a college campus. It doesn&#039;t happen anymore since the "Girls gone Wild" generation gathers and verbally taunts a flasher- the same kind of impact you&#039;d see a bunch of guys yield if somehow a woman tried the same. It doesn&#039;t yield the same impact to the perves so it&#039;s no longer "fun" for them anymore. You just don&#039;t see flashers in more liberal provinces anymore.

The more sexually liberated you see women become in society, the more harsh will be the backlash. This is why you will find Alsybeth&#039;s words so indignant- because it&#039;s coming from someone that has dealt with this harshly for an extended period of time. Her angst and choice of presentation is justified, albeit not as constructive as it could be to someone new or just entering the subject matter.

To be honest, I&#039;ve always found the stripclub environment fairly deplorable myself- as it has been stereotypically an arena that men use as an outlet to behave in ways that would get them slapped across the face in normal society, as well as women kissing their asses and putting up with it as long as the cash was rolling in- talk about double-negative reinforcement. It is changing though as things become more mainstream. I&#039;d say from viewing the environment from the inside 10 years ago, to seeing it from a customer&#039;s perspective today (and those years between avoiding like the plague!), I see a change in purpose and novelty in the clubs overall. I&#039;d say the stereotypical "patron" is about 80% majority still, but a more healthy 20% or so are now attending. This involves more liberated, progressive thinking individuals, couples and women. The dancers at these clubs have also similarly changed- with a MUCH more educated, liberated and intelligent ratio entering this line of work.

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 04:42 AM
but as I am bored I will humor you:


I like males, most of my friends are male. Most of my male friends don&#039;t like strip clubs. The reason being that they want a real person and not just the fantasy. They want to talk and share and they don&#039;t get off on strange women getting naked in front of them.

Interesting!! From reading the majority of these posts (and the feminist stripper website) it seems that the overall message has been that MOST MEN want this and it is natural.....now you are saying that most of your male friends don&#039;t want this fantasy and would not get off on this. Isn&#039;t the female body a work of beauty that men cannot resist?
I am in total agreement with you BTW so I was being sarcastic in my last statement!! Now, do you have any idea what makes your male friends different from that of men that generally go to those clubs?

We talk about many things, philosipy, physics, poetry... It is very fun.

We also do not sell our bodies, we sell our time. Just like any fast food worker. We get paid a rate to do something. They get paid to flip burgers, we get paid to take off our clothes, we just get paid better.


I said before I do not care if customers respect me, they are just customers, not my friends, I care about them or what they think of me as much as the person who hands you your Mceggwich in the morning does about you.

OK....that was my thinking too....you are a stripper and not an "attention whore".....you have honestly taught me something new.....thank you so much.

Never experience compleate faithfullness? you need to meet my husband. He is the most wonderful person. He is so careing and understanding. We talk about everything. He is my best friend. We have loved each other for 7 years and have been through a lot together and on our own. We know we belong together. And before you go off thinking this is just some delision, He has told me much of this himself. We finish eachothers sentances, we think the same way, it is truely a wonderfull experince.


We have talked about the definition of cheating. We both agree on what is and what isnt.

Would you mind sharing your definition of cheating with me? I am very curious. Also, what does your hubby think about your profession? I hope I&#039;m not getting too personal...if so then please let me know.

I know I only think of him when we make love. When I masterbate; I think of nothing, or I think of him.

Male dominated homes, dominering men? Nope, wrong again. I was raised in a matriach. My mother was the head of the household. Everything went through her. She mowed the lawn, chopped firewood, and all the other "mens" work. My father did the dishes and the laundrey and cooked us dinner. My father is a very gentle understanding person.

See only myself. Yes, everytime he has a concern, wheather it be the cats vet appointment, or my visit to my sisters. Everytime he just wants to curl up on the couch and cuddle. Everytime I clear the dishes after we eat the dinner he has made. When he says "I love you" on his way out the door to work. I don&#039;t belive it is power, as I did not force him to love me. But I will agree it is awesome.


oh, and BTW, Love and Sex are not the same. You seem to be mixing them a lot.

There you go Blade, a response from a married stripper.

Blade
02-27-2004, 09:53 AM
Beautiful Woman please bear with me while I try to answer some of the questions you have for me. Hopefully I won&#039;t screw up and miss some since you took the time to ask, I feel you deserve the respect of honest answers.
"That makes sense to me that most men do not get to have sex with the strippers. However, I view love/relationships as more than just physical sex. I have a question for you....since when you arrive home you are physically ready for sex it seems that it was not your wife that turned you on. If you are out with other women at the stripclub and getting turned on then how is that being with your wife? During sex aren&#039;t you thinking about what turned you on and therefore not really being with her? I am not naive enough to think that people are always 100% faithful in the mind, heart, etc. but when it is done purposely and often then doesn&#039;t that keep you at a distance from your real lover? "
Love and relationships are far more than just physical sex,sex is just a small factor of a relationship.It may not have been my wife who turned me on originally but by the time I get home and her turned on, my undivided attention is focused on her/us and what we are doing at that point in time. I don&#039;t go to stripclubs as a customer very often, working in one sours me to hanging out in them on a regular basis, much like a golf pro who doesn&#039;t want to spend his off hours at the golf course.
"Why do you have "complete faithfulness" inside quotation marks?

No one else reflected, just yourselves? When you come home from strip clubs all hot and heavy and ready to go for sex is just your wife being reflected there too? "
I put complete faithfulness inside quotes to show that I was using an expression taken from you.I believe i answered this question in my above answer about turning her on and focusing attention.
"In one of your posts you mentioned that when you come home after being in a strip club you are ready to have sex or sometimes cuddle (can&#039;t recall exact words)....if you are ready to go right when you get home then how is it that you were not turned on at the clubs? That was pretty personal information that you shared with me....I am a complete stranger to you.....so I thank you for being so honest, open, and candid."
When I go to the strip clubs as a customer, I get turned on. When I am at the stripclub working I have way too much going on to think about getting turned on...I have dancers complaining about customers,music,management,other dancers.Dancers not showing up on time for sets,dancers drinking too much, customers not tipping or getting handsy,management breathing down my neck because I&#039;ve played too much rock even though 99% of the dancers and customers are rock listeners etc...
I am an open person who has no problem sharing with others,if there is something someone wants to know I try my best to answer in an honest open way.
"How many daughters do you have? When they grow up would you like it if they worked in strip clubs? Do you feel that the men in strip clubs treat women with enough respect for your daughters to be able to work in the clubs? I hope I am not getting too personal, if so then please let me know. "
I have 2 daughters and it&#039;s really not my place to like or dislike what they choose to do for a living when they are over 18. I would be a hypocrite if I tried to tell them they couldn&#039;t become dancers or work in a stripclub,after all mom and dad do....
As far as men treating women with enough respect for my daughters to work in a stripclub...Personally I feel that MOST men are complete pigs. I have felt this way long before I ever started working in the sex industry however. Men sexually harrass women everywhere(walmart,stop and shop,shop and save,Mcdonalds,bobs big boy etc...)all I can do is warn them and make sure that they are mentally, physically and emotionally ready and able to deal with it. Not accept it by any means, but know that as women no matter what job they have there is ALWAYS going to be some jerk who won&#039;t take no for an answer and how to deal with it.
Getting too personal? Not at all,I have yet to find any question to be too personal.After all noone learns anything about a person without asking questions.

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 02:25 PM
I like that analogy, you made a great point.


So anyone who disagrees with you people and want to help you see a different view of the world is bashing, belitting, trolling, uncaring, etc., etc. etc.? I realize you don&#039;t want our help, but that&#039;s the way some people are.......they actually love and care about other people. We are just on a different level than you people. We are trying to help people be &#039;better&#039; people, people who really do respect human life. I realize that we are basing &#039;better&#039; on what we believe to be &#039;better&#039;, but it seems to me that if we give in to your world....we&#039;re lowering our standards for ourselves as human beings. I would never want to come to the conclusion that perverted sex and love of money are what is important in life.
I for one am quite content to accept help when help is offered, if I have asked for it. The difference between offering to help when asked and trying to force help on peole is simple to see....
Let me explain it this way: If I were a drug addict out on the street stealing to support my addiction and I desperatley wanted to become clean and sober,I would seek out help,and hopefully there would be someone I could turn to to give me the help I needed.
However If I did not see anything wrong with my addiction and you FORCED sobriety upon me,I would rob you blind and go out and get as high as I could,laughing at your foolishness the entire time.
I hope that me using a different scenario to illustrate the difference in asking for help and having someone try to force help on someone has opened someones eyes to the fact that you can not force your ideas on anyone.

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 02:41 PM
Once again, it&#039;s a damned shame that an attempt to talk about what could possibly be wrong with stripping as practiced today is focused on "immorality". Erotic entertainment is not inherently immoral or wrong, and such accusations only cloud the real issues.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge/experience with this industry. You did not mention if you have been a long time customer, club worker, or what??? I was wondering if you would share some of your background?

What are the "real issues" for strippers since according to you it isn&#039;t immoral?

Any one of the dancers who has had some asshole try to finger her or demand a hand job because he gave her twenty bucks can tell you it that men can often be complete assholes, and that they certainly can and will objectify women if given the chance. Worse yet, I know of managers who require women to blow them to get hired, and who have used violence more than once on the dancers in their club. It really does happen, unfortunately, certainly not in most clubs, but more often than many would like to believe.

But lame attempts to propagandize and confuse the issue by trotting out 70&#039;s style feminism and utilizing antiquated codes of morality will not help anyone.

Some strippers, such as Veronika, are truly empowered and enlightened women. They carry on their careers with creativity, integrity, and justifiable pride. Others are brutalized and have their lives ruined (at least temporarily) in the process, or react by becoming callous and unfeeling manipulators themselves. I have seen all three phenomena with my own eyes.

Boring the hell out of everyone with interminable and unreadable posts will do noone any good. Nor will getting into shouting matches.

Labelling stripping as a form of "perverted sex...filth and immorality" is simplistic and, quite obviously, counterproductive to anyone who really wants to "help" those strippers who might actually need some.

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 03:17 PM
How is that different from prostitution? Prostitutes still go home with their bodies. The men have sex with them for a fantasy and the men don&#039;t really get them (since the prostitutes leave afterwards). The men don&#039;t even know the prostitute at all which is the same as a stripper. Both are just selling their bodies for money then taking their bodies home with them after the men are done with them.


STRIPPERS DO NOT SELL THEIR BODIES! THEY SELL THEIR NUDITY!

I am really not understanding this.... How is nudity different from the human body?


The main difference is, when prostitutes sell their bodies (which they indeed do -- whether or not that is right or wrong depends on the individual and their own sense of morality), once the money exchanges hands, generally, customers can do whatever they like with that body, and the prostitute has little say in what happens, unless she wants to offer a refund.

This is starting to make sense to me but I am not familiar with prostitution so maybe that is why I am lacking in understanding this....not sure.... So I would like to ask a few questions. Now, why doesn&#039;t the prostitute have any say in what happens to her after money is exchanged? Are you saying that the customer has TOTAL control over her and her body during that time? Don&#039;t prostitutes negotiate money for certain tricks? I have no idea what the actual prices are but like $5 for a BJ, $50 for anal....whatever..... In other words, he only gets what he pays for so where does the loss of control come into play? Most people have say over their own bodies during sex unless it is forced rape or something.


When a dancer sells the intangible product that is her nudity, once the money exchanges hands, the customer is allowed to do whatever he likes with her nudity INSIDE HIS HEAD, because that is the only place her nudity exists -- in the minds of those who see it.

Ok...to me this doesn&#039;t make sense at all....I hope that you can explain this to me in a different way b/c I am completely lost with what you are trying to say.

Intangible: adj (of especially business assets) not having physical substance or intrinsic productive value; "intangible assets such as good will"

To me, a body has physical substance and is something that is real. Something like "good will" cannot be seen or defined. Some philosophers would even argue that "good will" is not real b/c no one knows what it really is. Good will is not a thing, object, it cannot be touched. A body can be touched (you might not allow for customers to touch you but it is there and it can be seen b/c it is very real....) You are not a 2D picture in a magazine....your flesh is what makes up your nudity. All people can have good will in common but no one else on this earth can have your body or nudity. You might have a freckle or a scar etc. etc. which would make you unique. That is YOU....your body is YOURS!! Since it is YOURS and it is a physical substance that makes your body tangible b/c it is an object. As a person you are very real!!
Another example...I could have an orange which is an object. If I was hungry I could dream about eating that orange. That doesn&#039;t mean the orange doesn&#039;t exist b/c it does...it is real. I can smell it....I can "taste" it in my mouth (if I&#039;m thinking about eating it).....but it still exists...the orange doesn&#039;t suddenly become nonexistent just b/c I am manipulating it in my mind.


I hope I made that easy enough to understand, and I&#039;d like to state that this is only the way I personally view the subject. The other ladies in here may have different perspectives.


I still don&#039;t understand & I don&#039;t know why. I am trying to see your point of view and look at this from a different perspective and I seem to be failing miserably. Thank you for the effort though. I enjoyed hearing what you had to say.

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 05:52 PM
Well, if you really want to get into that aspect, what is really wrong with prostitution if it were in, say, a safe, clean and regulated environment?

I must admit that I am completely ignorant and lack understanding when it comes to the topic of prostitution. I apologize in advance if I seem to ask stupid questions...

In a post right before yours Dizzy said:


The main difference is, when prostitutes sell their bodies (which they indeed do -- whether or not that is right or wrong depends on the individual and their own sense of morality), once the money exchanges hands, generally, customers can do whatever they like with that body, and the prostitute has little say in what happens, unless she wants to offer a refund.

Then you said that prostitution can be in a safe, clean, and regulated environment....isn&#039;t that what strippers claim about strip clubs? That strip clubs for the most part are clean, regulated etc. etc. With that in mind, how is prostitution different from stripping?
However, if the customer can do whatever they like with the body of the prostitute how is that ever safe?


I live in a state where prostituion is legal and have met some amazing women who worked in brothels.

What made them amazing? Their personality? Their profession? How they performed their profession? I am sure that as an individual there are many amazing people in the sex industry as well as any other profession....


STD checks, security, set rates and a social network. I&#039;ve met lawyers who went to work in a brothel.

How can STD checks catch all of the diseases? Genital warts which is one the #1 killers of women among the sexually transmitted diseases cannot be detected with an STD check. The HIV virus does not immediately show up then what do you do if you get it?


The number one thing you will hear from prostitutes and escorts is that most men want to talk. What does that tell you? There is an intimacy gap somewhere for one thing.

Oh good...I am glad that you confirmed this b/c this is a major point that I made in my original post. I felt that strippers completely disagreed with my view regarding this. The strippers said that strip clubs are about a fantasy which is natural for men to want/need/desire. They claimed it had nothing to do with emotional feelings or needs....that they weren&#039;t there to fill an intimacy gap......strippers aren&#039;t there to converse with the men (they can and sometimes do but it isn&#039;t the main purpose)...etc. etc. I like where you said, "there is an intimacy gap for one thing..." & "number one thing" concerning why men go to hookers.
Another stripper on this message board said that most of her male friends do not go to strip clubs & she has a lot of male friends. I originally felt that most men felt that way but on this board strippers made it seem like it is natural and everyone is always going and/or should be doing it. So are her male friends abnormal for thinking that strip clubs are weird or odd b/c they don&#039;t want to get turned on by a complete stranger?
Further, where are the strip clubs for women to go to with naked men in them? According to your economic policy they don&#039;t exist in masses b/c there isn&#039;t a market for them. So men are seeking the physical fantasy to fill an intimacy (emotional) gap. On the flip side, many women seek sex (we all know about that easy girl who did the entire football team in HS) to fill a need.....a void within herself. People make fun of the HS slut b/c of her unhealthy behaviors of acting "out of control"...


In *countries* (not cow counties like here in Nevada - makes for no comparison because of the hush quality) where there is truly legal prostitution and a healthy cultural acceptance of sexual entertainment and sexuality in general there is a low divorce rate, high rate of teen and young adult virginity and a low teen pregnancy rate. That has some interesting implications.

What exactly is a healthy cultural acceptance of sexual entertainment and how do you know? If it is so healthy then why is it hush? I thought that the legal prostitution was very small to some areas....very limited? Also, what is the immeidate population around that limited area? Age? How transient? etc.


Maybe, and I know this may not the overiding sentiment even here, it is a matter of degrees. We are all a part of the sex entertainment industry. And face it, that anonymity can be a turn on whether you deal with a stripper, prostitute, magazine image or random flirtation in a bar or nightclub.

At what point would those degrees go off balance?

As far as taking my body home with me "after the men are done with me", I feel a lot less intruded upon than when I worked 60+ hours a week for an admittedly high salary and had to think constantly about the next day or next project. I was emotionally exhausted. I was *owned* body and soul as I no longer had a life of my own and furthermore ANY idea I had was the intellectual property of the company I worked for. I signed away my life for physical comforts...


When all is said and done, I&#039;m pro erotica and erotic self-empowerment for men and woman. I feel like I "share the love" and I&#039;m sure I&#039;m not the only one who has had a customer return later with their SO to add some spice to their couples life. I have some female regulars, does that surprise you BW and A? I know I&#039;m not alone there either.

Are you a prostitute as well as a stripper?

Eroticism is both an individual thing and a thing to be shared with your partner.


Everyone (unless they won&#039;t admit it) has at one time or another had a fantasy that lives only in their head or in a book or on a monitor or whatever.

To me this is common sense. When I&#039;ve been really angry at someone I have imagined hurting them by seeking revenge but I don&#039;t actually do it. Thinking it and doing it are two completely different things.


That allows us to find out who we are sexually and the more comfortable we are with ourselves the more we are able to share at least the effects of that knowlege with our partners, current or future. The exploration of those things both personally and mutually is what makes for a healthy sexual outlook and a hot and loving sexual relationship.

I do not understand what this has to do with [email protected]@!? Maybe I am missing the point of what you are saying. I explore personally and mutually with my man and that doesn&#039;t include strippers. I believe we have a healthy sex life and we both think it is great.


That exploration can include one partner getting a lapdance and coming home and making passionate love to their SO. And no, they don&#039;t have to say where they&#039;ve been. Some people need to feel that little rush of "getting away with something" and since it is (usually) a finite experience, they can get away with "something" without being truely devilish.

I don&#039;t think that individuals in a relationship must always check-in with the other and tell EVERY detail of their life....where they&#039;ve been...who they were with...etc. etc. However, when you have been with another person and have been turned on...and then you are keeping it a secret that is cheating! Excessive cheaters have long term relationships JUST so they can have someone to keep secrets from. They get a rush from that... You have described it perfectly!! Cheating is sexually exploring with another person behind your partner&#039;s back!! Now, if it isn&#039;t a secret then that is another story completely....


A relationship with someone is built on two individuals bringing their experiences together to form a respectful partnership.

How is sneaking around behind your partner&#039;s back so that YOU can get a rush from doing that being respectful?


Part of that partnership is a) to acknowlege you don&#039;t own them and b) that ultimately, no matter what might cross their minds, they love you and will work to make a good go of things.

Expecting honesty and faithfulness which is treating a person with respect is hardly owning them. What might cross ther minds is different than actually DOing.


To think that you can control a person&#039;s thoughts by throwing out "respect issues" is disrespectful in and of itself. There is no more or less than, just different and that is why we are gifted with an active fantasy life.

That has to do with thinking and not doing....


So what if that fantasy life is stimulated?? All it can do in a healthy relationship is add to it whether that be at a personal level or a couples&#039; level.

If I beat up a jerk who was mean to me that might help me feel better too. If that is the case, why not kill people who are jerks....others could benefit from not having to deal with that idiot too. Couldn&#039;t that add benefit to the human race?

(and I&#039;ve been in my current relationship for 5 year and before that with my high school sweetheart for 8 so I feel I can safely talk about good, long-term relationships)

Or it may also be the personal journey of self exploration that helps when one loses a spouse. Lonliness is worse than almost anything for a lot of people. If they have to pay for comfort, is that really wrong?

Life is full of different experiences, journeys and beliefs.

We on this site just happen to work in one aspect of that erotic potential. Most of us here are quite happy with that or at least know that we&#039;ve lucked out in the great pantheon of potential ways of making money.


You aren&#039;t going to get any converts here or change anyone&#039;s mind.

That&#039;s fine since that isn&#039;t my goal.

The best we can do is agree to disagree. If it persists past the point of an exchange of idea (which BW & A&#039;s vitriolic posts indicate it has) there are much deeper personal issues that the idea of whether strippers can be feminists or no.

This could&#039;ve been an interesting discussion. Alas...

~V~
<<out>>

MotherDaisy
02-27-2004, 06:04 PM
Beautiful Woman - I respect the way you have maturely defended yourself to all the critisism. This thread has gotten way out of hand and a lot of off the wall things were said.

I suggest that you lye low for a little while and let this fire burn out. Next time you post a topic or question for discussion, you may want to follow the format the other girls use on this site: short, focused and with the proper audience in mind.

Maybe you should have just written your own article and submitted that?

You don&#039;t seem like a bad person and have defended yourself honorably. If I see you commenting in other forums on stripper web I will not hold it against you. This craziness has gone a little to far.

Is anyone else ready to see this thread end??

AMERICAN
02-27-2004, 06:19 PM
I think I have read all of the posts so far, and it&#039;s obvious I have upset many people with my comments.....so, I would like to apologize. I have been through many things in my life, and there are reasons for me being the way I am. I&#039;m sorry I come across the way I do.

For starters, I am personally sick and tired of walking down the street, going to Wal-Mart, while most every man who sees me turns around and checks out my ass or breasts (and I&#039;m not dressed provactively at all!) or turns to see what pretty woman is in the car when I drive by. I&#039;m tired of being treated by men in this way. In days past, I did enjoy this attention, but since then (now that I actually am secure with myself), I don&#039;t get a &#039;thrill&#039; from this type of behavior, or this type of man. It seems that you girls still are attracted to this type of man. All power to you. ;) I guess to each his own.

And just to let you know, Susan (BW) and I are on-line friends. We have never met, but we have helped and tried to support each other over the last several months. We don&#039;t like the double standard in this country anymore than any of you women on here. We just think that possibly women are going about &#039;improving&#039; the double standard in this country in the wrong way. Women are against women when we actually give men what they want.....more visuals, multiple partners, and free passes to the strip club. Women in this country not only are trying to compete against men....they are also competing against each other. Like BW said, we women are our own worst enemies. And yes, I personally feel that when a woman dresses a certain way out in public, she is most definitely trying to get my "man&#039;s" attention. I think this is malicious, deceitful, and very disrespectful to me as a fellow woman. (I know that she is like this because I enjoyed &#039;stealing&#039; away that attention from other women in years past, unfortunately.) I realize that many of you may say you don&#039;t do this for the same reasons, and that&#039;s okay.

But what many of you don&#039;t seem to see is that men are still in control in this country when it comes to sexuality. They are the ones controlling each one of you in the strip club. They are definitely controlling women when they convince us (their SO) to go to the strip club with them. It is &#039;every&#039; man&#039;s fantasy to see women on women, to have their women go to the strip club with them. So how do you not see that we as women, who go to the strip club with our men, aren&#039;t actually giving up even more of our control and power?

I think each one of you on here should somehow, with the money you make from stripping, start a chain of restaurants where gorgeous men serve us women in those sexy bikini underwear. I think some of you should gather up your money and start a nationwide chain of male strip joints.....in every city in the country.

Why do we women have to give in to men and provide them visual stimulation while not providing visual stimulation for ourselves (which is not another woman)!? Are we really that much more attracted to the female body than the male body? I&#039;m not. Yes, I think the female body is beautiful.....but I crave the nude male body (as BW does). I would prefer any day to have sex with a man over a woman.

And by women being willing to have sex with women these days and by becoming visually stimulated by women&#039;s body and by pulling up our blouses at Mardi Gras.....aren&#039;t we only giving men more power and pleasure? Where is our pleasure, girls? In giving them pleasure?!! Doesn&#039;t that sound ridiculous!!??

I apologize if my points are unclear. I&#039;m a fairly decent writer, but in this little space I have to write, it&#039;s hard to organize everything. So please don&#039;t put me down for incomplete thoughts. BW, maybe you can help me here, help explain what we&#039;ve talked about.

AMERICAN
02-27-2004, 06:28 PM
I think I have read all of the posts so far, and it&#039;s obvious I have upset many people with my comments.....so, I would like to apologize. I have been through many things in my life, and there are reasons for me being the way I am. I&#039;m sorry I come across the way I do.

For starters, I am personally sick and tired of walking down the street, going to Wal-Mart, while most every man who sees me turns around and checks out my ass or breasts (and I&#039;m not dressed provactively at all!) or turns to see what pretty woman is in the car when I drive by. I&#039;m tired of being treated by men in this way. In days past, I did enjoy this attention, but since then (now that I actually am secure with myself), I don&#039;t get a &#039;thrill&#039; from this type of behavior, or this type of man. It seems that you girls still are attracted to this type of man. All power to you. I guess to each his own.

And just to let you know, Susan (BW) and I are on-line friends. We have never met, but we have helped and tried to support each other over the last several months. We don&#039;t like the double standard in this country anymore than any of you women on here. We just think that possibly women are going about &#039;improving&#039; the double standard in this country in the wrong way. Women are against women when we actually give men what they want.....more visuals, multiple partners, and free passes to the strip club. Women in this country not only are trying to compete against men....they are also competing against each other. Like BW said, we women are our own worst enemies. And yes, I personally feel that when a woman dresses a certain way out in public, she is most definitely trying to get my "man&#039;s" attention. I think this is malicious, deceitful, and very disrespectful to me as a fellow woman. (I know that she is like this because I enjoyed &#039;stealing&#039; away that attention from other women in years past, unfortunately.) I realize that many of you may say you don&#039;t do this for the same reasons, and that&#039;s okay.

But what many of you don&#039;t seem to see is that men are still in control in this country when it comes to sexuality. They are the ones controlling each one of you in the strip club. They are definitely controlling women when they convince us (their SO) to go to the strip club with them. It is &#039;every&#039; man&#039;s fantasy to see women on women, to have their women go to the strip club with them. So how do you not see that we as women, who go to the strip club with our men, aren&#039;t actually giving up even more of our control and power?

I think each one of you on here should somehow, with the money you make from stripping, start a chain of restaurants where gorgeous men serve us women in those sexy bikini underwear. I think some of you should gather up your money and start a nationwide chain of male strip joints.....in every city in the country.

Why do we women have to give in to men and provide them visual stimulation while not providing visual stimulation for ourselves (which is not another woman)!? Are we really that much more attracted to the female body than the male body? I&#039;m not. Yes, I think the female body is beautiful.....but I crave the nude male body (as BW does). I would prefer any day to have sex with a man over a woman.

And by women being willing to have sex with women these days and by becoming visually stimulated by women&#039;s body and by pulling up our blouses at Mardi Gras.....aren&#039;t we only giving men more power and pleasure? Where is our pleasure, girls? In giving them pleasure?!! Doesn&#039;t that sound ridiculous!!??

I apologize if my points are unclear. I&#039;m a fairly decent writer, but in this little space I have to write, it&#039;s hard to organize everything. So please don&#039;t put me down for incomplete thoughts. BW, maybe you can help me here, help explain what we&#039;ve talked about.

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 06:32 PM
The only annoyance is the one where you continue to belittle full grown women for the choices that they have made in life. It may not be a choice that you like...it may not be a choice that you would make, but it is a free country...and each woman has the right to make any choice about her lifestyle...her body...and her profession that she wishes. If you do not agree with it...then, fine. Don&#039;t make the same choices.

I realize that everyone has their own choices and all of that stuff. I don&#039;t have an issue with nudity. If they want to do that then it is fine. I&#039;m not trying to change anyone nor do I think I would or even could. I am trying to understand a different perspective and I am sharing my thoughts too. If people feel belittled then don&#039;t read my posts or talk to me. I don&#039;t intend to do that to others (although I am aware that I have upset some people)...for that I do apologize. I am enjoying reading and writing on this message board and I appreciate the discussions. I realize that I have come to &#039;your&#039; message board but at the same time I have not forced anyone to read this thread or my posts.


That&#039;s fine...then why are you still coming here? Why are you choosing to try and force your ideals/morals on us? If we wanted this, that would be one thing...but, we do not.

I have not forced anyone to read my posts or threads. I can tell others my ideals/morals/values etc. but I cannot force them to accept or even like them. Therefore, I think you are giving me way more credit (or blame maybe) for this situation.


Notice the part in bold..."it does not bother or affect me..." Obviously it does. But, that&#039;s not my problem nor my concern. Why? Because you are choosing to be bothered by it. Sure, there are a lot of women who flaunt themselves on a daily basis. Do you get all bent out of shape and leave mean notes on their cars? You are bothered by it because (I feel) they are openly flaunting their sexuality...and you are not comfortable enough to do that. You are bothered by it because you cannot find the power within you to do the same.

You are correct when you said that there is something that must bother me about this. One or more aspects....as for what they are I do not know. What I meant by that was that strippers working in clubs do not bother me b/c I don&#039;t go to them or near them.
I do know that what upset me was the way in which this material was presented on the feminist stripper website that I came across.
As for openly flaunting my sexuality, I am not sure what you mean by that? I would not be a stripper...I have zero desire so I don&#039;t feel a lack of power there since I am not holding myself back from doing that. If you meant this in a different way then please explain?


Sexuality is a part of human nature. We all have it. We all need it (even the priests of your beloved catholic religion are molesting little boys...). You have a choice. You can either accept it or deny it. With each choice comes a consequence. But, either way, you have a choice.

I agree. My beloved religion? I&#039;m not Catholic...I don&#039;t attend ANY church.


Victim? Who&#039;s the victim? We are not talking about Catholic confessionals with priests and little boys. We are talking about grown adults choosing their form of entertainment...

I took that directly from a sociology college textbook where they did research on strippers....Kat (and others) seemed so fasinated with that aspect (since Kat is a sociologist) so I shared it with them. I happened to have that book left over from when I took that class.



& 5) appeal to higher loyalities
(strippers claim they violate social norms in order to benefit others.....in other words they might say....I earn money to raise my child and I&#039;m not on welfare.....) by doing this they neutralize some of the external stigma from society and deflect any internally generated or self-imposed stigma (I take that to mean excuses work)


In my mind, there is nothing wrong with me being able to make enough money to work 2 nights a week, spend all the time in the world with my daughter, pay my bills, and still live comfortably. With a full-time 9-5 job, my daughter&#039;s daycare would be more than my mortgage payment per month. I do not find stripping an "external stigma". It is an internal stigma...one with which you choose to identify with. It is my choice...and none of your business, really.