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Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 06:44 PM
If I worked in a big corporation my boss would also have my paycheck and the ability to fire me--in essence the 'power'. When I chose a profession I did not choose based on who I might have power over or what strangers respect I might earn. My deciding factor was the control over my own life that stripping has to offer. It's not a matter of power over some random customer, I don't care about that. I don't care if that random customer respects me or not. Anything you do in life, there are going to be people who disagree with you and might not respect you for saying or doing that. Do you adjust your life becuase some stranger does not respect you? I do not live a life based on impressing strangers. I do what makes me happy and what allows me to live the best, and happiest life with those I care about. I strip because it lets me set my own hours, I make as much or as little as I choose, I have all the time I need to do what I want. It lets me have power over my own life rather than some boss telling to work 40 hours a week and when I can eat lunch. It's not about issues with men, or immorality, or my getting attention for being sexual. It's just a job.



What you said here really makes sense to me. Thank you for writing this and sharing.

Beautiful Woman
02-27-2004, 08:52 PM
Beautiful Woman - I respect the way you have maturely defended yourself to all the critisism. This thread has gotten way out of hand and a lot of off the wall things were said.

Thank you.


I suggest that you lye low for a little while and let this fire burn out. Next time you post a topic or question for discussion, you may want to follow the format the other girls use on this site: short, focused and with the proper audience in mind.

I felt that since I posted such a long post, if people took the time to read all of that and respond to it then I would be willing to take the time to reply to the responses that I received. I felt that was only polite and fair. I still would like to respond to those that were interested in this enough to read & respond to them.

Before I started responding to everyone people were like BW.....when are you going to respond back?? That's it....only a one line response etc. etc. after all that!! Then when I take the time to respond it is too much!!!


Maybe you should have just written your own article and submitted that?

That is what I did. Or do you mean something else? I wanted feedback and to talk about this...


You don't seem like a bad person and have defended yourself honorably.

Thank you.

If I see you commenting in other forums on stripper web I will not hold it against you. This craziness has gone a little to far.

Is anyone else ready to see this thread end??

Pamela
02-27-2004, 09:00 PM
American....I find myself as being a very tough woman. Hard to tie down. And if i did not want to put myself inside a club for money i would not. I like to take the lead (control) at times. And the man i am with next, we will be equals! I do not put myself at the mercy of a man and his money. Actually instrip clubs, i agree to an extent we are dependent on our behaviour if he pays up.

Try phone sex! Who's in control then? ME. He pays me, i give a fantasy, if i don't like him...I simply hang up.

Pamela

polecat
02-27-2004, 10:30 PM
To American-

I am personally sick and tired of walking down the street, going to Wal-Mart, while most every man who sees me turns around and checks out my ass or breasts (and I'm not dressed provactively at all!) or turns to see what pretty woman is in the car when I drive by. I'm tired of being treated by men in this way.

The question is, why exactly are you tired of of being "treated" this way?

I say this as men receive the same if they are exceptional. Body builders, "hunkish" men that compete and whatnot are similarly gawked at by women when going to the gym, at the grocery store- even if wearing non-provocative clothing. You don't ever hear men complaining though as it's societally accepted. I read it that you are still living a mindset created by men to force you to feel guilty or "cheap" about your sexuality. This mindset was conditioned into you since the self-awareness of your sexuality is deemed "dirty" or "improper"...

In a sea of Honda's, Toyota's and SUV's, a Ferrari in the mix is stared at and people look. It's a natural reaction to something unusual, dare-say sexy and provocative. Things that get our attention have a natural inclination to GET that attention. To inhibit such is a travesty as we are denying our inner instincts. Men have been conditioned to live freely this way for centuries- we can look at the attractive woman and be pleased by her eloquent form, style and beauty. Women have been conditioned to be uptight, inhibited and conservative. Many cultures even force the wearing of burkas or exposing of no flesh, but the reverse isn't true for men since women aren't tolerated to be "harlets" and look at the toned garden worker. Stronger discipline is placed on women for their natural urges, and to ease such discipline for men- it's either culturally accepted they gawk and look openly, or women are chided/inhibited from exposing flesh to remove the temptation.


We don't like the double standard in this country anymore than any of you women on here. We just think that possibly women are going about 'improving' the double standard in this country in the wrong way. Women are against women when we actually give men what they want.....more visuals, multiple partners, and free passes to the strip club.

Nobody likes the double-standard once you see where it's roots are derived from. It's unprogressive and single-sided.

If you flip the tables and think for a moment from the alternate perspective- it's currently men against men, and we give women what WE want. We are also completely societally uninhibited sexually and allowed to react to our urges.. and we can damn well wear whatever we please anywhere and have NO pathos or controlling mind games about the reaction or how we should feel from outside visual attention.

Read that last paragraph as many times as needed before it sinks in. THAT is the model that is needed for women to become true equals- to rise to that level.

People wonder why (predominantly white) men control most of the power and wealth in the world, it's because it's a bred and conditioned instinct of competition from birth on (men vs men). You can choose to believe it's due to the shape of the organ found in their pants, skin color, race or whathaveyou.. I'll continue to associate with those that know better, and prove it wrong all the time.


And yes, I personally feel that when a woman dresses a certain way out in public, she is most definitely trying to get my "man's" attention. I think this is malicious, deceitful, and very disrespectful to me as a fellow woman. (I know that she is like this because I enjoyed 'stealing' away that attention from other women in years past, unfortunately.)

Yeah, and? Some big, buffed cutey patootie beef-cakes walks by in a muscle-shirt and my girlfriend checks him out. So what? Being self-actualized sexually allows retention emphasis on intellect, character, personality, power, attitude and all that's truly important in relationships. While women that subscribe to your model are perpetually worried about getting saggy, putting on weight, or old/wrinkly, men continue to get beer-bellies, balding and stop going to the gym. How fair to you as a woman is the model you're trying to propensify?

So, you would rather create a more controlling, Muslim-style society where women are required to "bundle-up", expose no flesh and all for the sake of allowing men a complete lack of discipline? Unless what you are saying is we become a male and female burka-wearing society, what you are proposing is the result of the biggest male mind-fuck ever, and being handily spoon fed to your readily receiving mouth. Yeah! Women should cover themselves up and be ashamed of their form and sexuality. Why not? More virgin wives! Yay!


But what many of you don't seem to see is that men are still in control in this country when it comes to sexuality.

Absolutely. What a man cannot control, he lays into rhetorical bondage. It's been that way for centuries- physically and mentally.


They are the ones controlling each one of you in the strip club. They are definitely controlling women when they convince us (their SO) to go to the strip club with them. It is 'every' man's fantasy to see women on women, to have their women go to the strip club with them. So how do you not see that we as women, who go to the strip club with our men, aren't actually giving up even more of our control and power?

You're interpretting a woman's unshackling of such bondage (and capitalizing on it!) the way men/old-fashioned values have conditioned you to believe.

And for the men taking women to stripclubs as a controlling factor- this is a farce since a woman seeing empowerment through sexuality is going to pick this up on her first visit. Men with these kinds of pretenses usually don't return as this plan backfires on them if the woman they are with has any sense or rationality. Instead, the frequenting couples that attend stripclubs are either: a) a woman too far gone to climb out of her shell and will forever be controlled, or b) a healthy acceptance by her mate that she should be empowered and respect/admire her sexuality and recognize the control it can afford her.

There is also a reason why there are ATM's and credit-card stations at every stripclub. The actualized strippers know the name of the game IS control, but in a reversed setting. Their job is to squeek every last buck from their customer's wallet, AND gain enough control for the patron to make trips to the ATM and credit-card machines, thus spending substantially more than they sought out to. Chris Rock jokes about how ATM transactions at 3am are never a good thing. Emotionally healthy males laugh at this and find it a refreshing trend to see women so empowered.


I think each one of you on here should somehow, with the money you make from stripping, start a chain of restaurants where gorgeous men serve us women in those sexy bikini underwear. I think some of you should gather up your money and start a nationwide chain of male strip joints.....

Best idea you've set forth this whole thread. But with the strong societal conditioning of how "improper" a woman would be spending $$ on this, you can see how unsucessful such ventures have become. You want to see men in a thong, you're obviously a slut, harlet, tramp or whore.


And by women being willing to have sex with women these days and by becoming visually stimulated by women's body and by pulling up our blouses at Mardi Gras.....aren't we only giving men more power and pleasure? Where is our pleasure, girls? In giving them pleasure?!!

Staunch heterosexual women that are also sexually liberated don't touch other women, but do enjoy the Mardi-Gras and sexual debauchery as you stated. The difference is- they are emotionally healthy enough to do what feels good and enjoyable to them, and not as a conditioned effort to please surrounding men. It rooted from health, not pathos.

The problem is- everyone applies a wide brush when painting women in all facets. I can totally relate to the perception as there are a great deal of women working stripclubs that are in deep trouble. In the 'city- there are a great number of women in abusive/pimp-style relationships, have past abuse issues from childhood that negate their self-worth leading to harsh rejection of outside help, narcotic-addicted and controlled, and rarely see much of their own income. Their condition is servantile/controlled and often perform sex-services to strange men in seedy clubs, and hand over proceeds to their pimp-boyfriends and drug dealers. Their actions in the clubs is far, far from an empowered standpoint and have unfortunately become a stereotype for the industry. Luckily, this portion is in decline as more and more intelligent, strong-willed and intellectual women enter the arena. There will always be men seeking the former, but the latter are starting to outrank and overpower them, and patrons formerly convinced of the stereotype are finding their way into clubs to be quite surprised. This is why it's important to recognize the women working to achieve this, and grant them dignity they deserve.

Zabrina
02-28-2004, 04:47 AM
American, correct me if I'm wrong, but the message I get about you is...
You are irritated when guys check you out at Walmart, even though you aren't dressed provacativly. You are irritated when some other woman dares to dress sexy, as is she is trying to steal the attention of your man-thus working against you and ALL women. You are irritatated when strippers strip, or Mardi Gra revelers flash, because that is entertaining to men.
It basically bothers you that men look at women at all.

I think you have trust issues with men in general, and that is the real problem.

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 06:25 AM
Mariah, Yes, I will admit that I do have trust issues with the "typical" American male, but that's because I expect more of myself now and the men I choose to date. I'm not interested in "typical" anymore. I am interested in men who really know what fidelity and faithfulness really is. And believe it or not, there are men out here who aren't like men you girls have encountered. And, no, they aren't hung up sexually, boring, or unpassionate....in fact, quite the opposite. It's refreshing to have a man love who knows what self-control is all about. And my trust issues, by the way, don't come from someone cheating on me, as I have never been cheated on (as far as I know, that is).

But again, I realize that you girls don't seem to require as much from the men in your lives and you seem to work from a different definition of faithfulness. It might be a challenge for you some day to experience the type of man I'm talking about to see how much different it is and to see what you're really missing.





American, correct me if I'm wrong, but the message I get about you is...
You are irritated when guys check you out at Walmart, even though you aren't dressed provacativly. You are irritated when some other woman dares to dress sexy, as is she is trying to steal the attention of your man-thus working against you and ALL women. You are irritatated when strippers strip, or Mardi Gra revelers flash, because that is entertaining to men.
It basically bothers you that men look at women at all.

I think you have trust issues with men in general, and that is the real problem.

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 06:31 AM
Pamela, I agree that we women should never put ourselves at the "mercy" at any man. And yes, it is nice to take the lead and control sometimes. And if a man has a problem with a balance of that in a relationship, then he is the one with the real problem.

And I wonder what you mean by being a very tough woman. Is it hard for a man to get to the core of who you are? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.




American....I find myself as being a very tough woman. Hard to tie down. And if i did not want to put myself inside a club for money i would not. I like to take the lead (control) at times. And the man i am with next, we will be equals! I do not put myself at the mercy of a man and his money. Actually instrip clubs, i agree to an extent we are dependent on our behaviour if he pays up.

Try phone sex! Who's in control then? ME. He pays me, i give a fantasy, if i don't like him...I simply hang up.

Pamela

Zabrina
02-28-2004, 07:04 AM
Mariah, Yes, I will admit that I do have trust issues with the "typical" American male, but that's because I expect more of myself now and the men I choose to date. I'm not interested in "typical" anymore. I am interested in men who really know what fidelity and faithfulness really is. And believe it or not, there are men out here who aren't like men you girls have encountered. And, no, they aren't hung up sexually, boring, or unpassionate....in fact, quite the opposite. It's refreshing to have a man love who knows what self-control is all about. And my trust issues, by the way, don't come from someone cheating on me, as I have never been cheated on (as far as I know, that is).

But again, I realize that you girls don't seem to require as much from the men in your lives and you seem to work from a different definition of faithfulness. It might be a challenge for you some day to experience the type of man I'm talking about to see how much different it is and to see what you're really missing.


Please quit with the "you girls." All strippers are not of one mind any more than all civilian girls are. If you poke around the threads here, you'll see that some dancers are cool with their men going to clubs, and some aren't. Just like everyone else - it varies.

And what is this belittling tone about faithfulness? How does my job have anything to do with my expectations of faithfulness and requirements of the man in my life? I have a great relationship, which operates no differently than it would if I were a doctor or a carpenter or a hula dancer.

Pamela
02-28-2004, 08:39 AM
American i meant that i simply will not put myself beneath a man. That being said, if i actually feel i am not in control of my choices with men i have a problem. That goes for anyone i meet. I want to be able to say yes or no. Some men in strip clubs do poke fun at dancers, i feel for the dancers, and at times have knocked over a drink on their table...oooops.

At the same time women "wolf whistle" at men too! So i think women are getting more out of life than they used to with the opposite sex.

Remember you can always say NO. And when you find that guy, let me know what state, and if he has a brother!!!! Be flattered at the stranger who does a double take, or says hi. Tons of women in life never get second looks! PS if you work in a small cubicle all day your chances go way down. You work with the public all day your chances of this "women watching" go way up. Enjoy the looks while you can. A look is just a look. You are in control after the look passes. ;)



Pamela

Topaz
02-28-2004, 09:41 AM
ok...if you ladies have such strong views against stripping and strippers....and don't want to have anything to do with the industry....then why do you two come here constantly?...

is it because you want to continually try to shove your quazi ultra feminist views down our throats?....well...my take on that....women have the power to make or break a man...and we don't have to use our sexuality to do it....and basically...your 'down with men'...'all power to the women' sermons are getting REALLY old....

(and this is coming from a woman that doesn't have a whole lot of love for the menfolk...)

:peace:

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 09:51 AM
Mariah, Yes, I will admit that I do have trust issues with the "typical" American male, but that's because I expect more of myself now and the men I choose to date. I'm not interested in "typical" anymore. I am interested in men who really know what fidelity and faithfulness really is. And believe it or not, there are men out here who aren't like men you girls have encountered. And, no, they aren't hung up sexually, boring, or unpassionate....in fact, quite the opposite. It's refreshing to have a man love who knows what self-control is all about. And my trust issues, by the way, don't come from someone cheating on me, as I have never been cheated on (as far as I know, that is).

But again, I realize that you girls don't seem to require as much from the men in your lives and you seem to work from a different definition of faithfulness. It might be a challenge for you some day to experience the type of man I'm talking about to see how much different it is and to see what you're really missing.


Please quit with the "you girls." All strippers are not of one mind any more than all civilian girls are. If you poke around the threads here, you'll see that some dancers are cool with their men going to clubs, and some aren't. Just like everyone else - it varies.

And what is this belittling tone about faithfulness? How does my job have anything to do with my expectations of faithfulness and requirements of the man in my life? I have a great relationship, which operates no differently than it would if I were a doctor or a carpenter or a hula dancer.





Why do you consider it belitting when I try to describe what I consider to be faithful? It is my opinion (again, an opinion) that you openly sharing your body with other men and/or not having a problem with him willfully sharing his sexual mind with other women is unfaithfulness. My line is just different than your line, and I'm not the only one who draws lines like this.

And no, it doesn't have anything to do with me being afraid to express my sexuality or me being 'dominated' by men. I just don't have a need to express it to every Tom, Dick, and Harry who comes along. My sexuality belongs to one man. I love to explore anything that has to do with sex, anything, as long as it doesn't include another human being.

montythegeek
02-28-2004, 09:58 AM
Amer,
I think you are exhibiting a double standard. You complain about males looking at you and yet care not a whit that some lesbians are probably looking at you too. Or even straight females, who are comparing themselves to you deciding if they like your hair, or outfit.

Given the fact that Walmarts are not the most visually stimulating places in the world, did you ever consider they might just be looking at you because they are bored?

polecat
02-28-2004, 10:01 AM
It's a lost cause monty (and the rest here)... clearly.

But at least the confession of having "trust issues" with men finally came out. Obviously, you can't reason with prejudice.

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 10:04 AM
American i meant that i simply will not put myself beneath a man. That being said, if i actually feel i am not in control of my choices with men i have a problem. That goes for anyone i meet. I want to be able to say yes or no. Some men in strip clubs do poke fun at dancers, i feel for the dancers, and at times have knocked over a drink on their table...oooops.

At the same time women "wolf whistle" at men too! So i think women are getting more out of life than they used to with the opposite sex.

Remember you can always say NO. And when you find that guy, let me know what state, and if he has a brother!!!! Be flattered at the stranger who does a double take, or says hi. Tons of women in life never get second looks! PS if you work in a small cubicle all day your chances go way down. You work with the public all day your chances of this "women watching" go way up. Enjoy the looks while you can. A look is just a look. You are in control after the look passes. ;)



Pamela



I admire you for not wanting to put yourself beneath a man, and that's as it should be, in my opinion. But trying to be as respectful as possible here, it seems you don't understand that by you standing their allowing a man to pay you to see your body is willfully putting yourself beneath him. Sure, you are in control of many aspects about it, but still, as BW said, men don't have the opinions about you that you think they do. And I know the men on here completely disagree, so stated simply....this is my opinion.

And you mentioned that a lot of women in life get no second look. That's also the part that I am totally against. No wonder many don't get a second look. Look at what society has said is beautiful! Most women don't stand a chance. 'Society' controls what is attractive in a woman. I consider my looks a blessing, and I am respectful of that blessing now. I don't want to add to society's mixed-up messages of what beautiful is.

And yes, I agree, if you work in the public, a woman will definitely get more looks.

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 10:08 AM
It's a lost cause monty (and the rest here)... clearly.

But at least the confession of having "trust issues" with men finally came out. Obviously, you can't reason with prejudice.



Oh, please, this is the stuff that simply puts women (and men, for that matter) down even further. Everyone has trust issues and everyone has insecurity issues. Whether you want to be courageous enough to admit it, that's your problem.

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 10:12 AM
Amer,
I think you are exhibiting a double standard. You complain about males looking at you and yet care not a whit that some lesbians are probably looking at you too. Or even straight females, who are comparing themselves to you deciding if they like your hair, or outfit.

Given the fact that Walmarts are not the most visually stimulating places in the world, did you ever consider they might just be looking at you because they are bored?



Well, I would think I would feel the same about lesbians looking at me, but there's not many around where I live (or at least they're still in the closet) so I don't have to experience that. And straight females are usually not looking at me to be sexually-stimulated. They're looking at me to try to find a flaw so they will feel better about themselves.

And Wal-Mart was just one example. I guess I should have given a better example, so you wouldn't have misunderstood my point.

NikkiD
02-28-2004, 10:15 AM
I rejoice in being young enough and good looking enoug for people to look. I do not dress provocatively, either, which is why I feel it is all the more, a compliment.

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 10:16 AM
Amer,
I think you are exhibiting a double standard. You complain about males looking at you and yet care not a whit that some lesbians are probably looking at you too. Or even straight females, who are comparing themselves to you deciding if they like your hair, or outfit.

Given the fact that Walmarts are not the most visually stimulating places in the world, did you ever consider they might just be looking at you because they are bored?



Well, I would think I would feel the same about lesbians looking at me, but there's not many around where I live (or at least they're still in the closet) so I don't have to experience that. And straight females are usually not looking at me to be sexually-stimulated. They're looking at me to try to find a flaw so they will feel better about themselves.

And Wal-Mart was just one example. I guess I should have given a better example, so you wouldn't have misunderstood my point.



Or straight women are looking at me to see what they can change about themselves, to improve their looks, which only adds to their low self-esteem issues.

And yes, some men and woman just simply look at me just because I cross their path, and actually see me as a human being and want to get to know me better.

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 10:23 AM
I rejoice in being young enough and good looking enoug for people to look. I do not dress provocatively, either, which is why I feel it is all the more, a compliment.




I understand where that feeling comes from. But I'm simply trying to say that what makes me ME has nothing to do with what's on the outside....I am ME because of what is on the inside. This society is such a superficial society.

I consider it more a compliment when a man walks by me and looks at me like a human being, and shows respect. The man I am interested in now is a man who doesn't even notice when an attractive woman walks in the room. A man who has more self-control than to stumble when he walks or stutters when an attractive woman is in his presence. A man that can be in the presence of an attractive woman and treat her just as he would his sister, of course unless he and I both are single. ;)

montythegeek
02-28-2004, 10:30 AM
So Ameri, the truth comes out "It is their fault for how you feel, based on how you interpret their motivation." Sounds like the problem is YOU!

The word for this condition is paranoia.

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 10:33 AM
ok...if you ladies have such strong views against stripping and strippers....and don't want to have anything to do with the industry....then why do you two come here constantly?...

is it because you want to continually try to shove your quazi ultra feminist views down our throats?....well...my take on that....women have the power to make or break a man...and we don't have to use our sexuality to do it....and basically...your 'down with men'...'all power to the women' sermons are getting REALLY old....

(and this is coming from a woman that doesn't have a whole lot of love for the menfolk...)

:peace:




This last comment is just really strange to me. No wonder you don't have a very high opinion of 'menfolk.' All men aren't like the men in the sex industry and all men are not like men who participate in things that the sex industry has to offer.

And BW and I have come here for different reasons. BW had some things she really wanted to say, because she is really trying to understand the 'stripper' logic since she lives in Orlando. She simply asked me to get involved to give my opinion and offer her support. Is that such a bad thing?

And you don't think that this society is proving that women can only control men with 'sexuality.' Why does this thing with men have to have anything to with control? I don't understand that part either. I have been in relationships with men who have been raised in an alcoholic home (and fortunately, I haven't been), and the way their psyche works in relationship is....I'll get you before you get me. They view most everything in the relationship from a competitive standpoint. Their view of the world is simply survival. My heart goes out to people who have been raised this way, and yes, outside of this Website, I am trying to do my part to help some people understand that life and relationships is different than the way they were raised. This is not necessarily what I'm trying to do here. I came here simply to support BW.

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 10:35 AM
So Ameri, the truth comes out "It is their fault for how you feel, based on how you interpret their motivation." Sounds like the problem is YOU!

The word for this condition is paranoia.



I do have issues that I still deal with....don't you? Not sure I would label it paranoia, though.....though, I do admit that sometimes that does happen. But I'm working on it.

doc-catfish
02-28-2004, 10:45 AM
But again, I realize that you girls don't seem to require as much from the men in your lives and you seem to work from a different definition of faithfulness. It might be a challenge for you some day to experience the type of man I'm talking about to see how much different it is and to see what you're really missing.



And no, it doesn't have anything to do with me being afraid to express my sexuality or me being 'dominated' by men. I just don't have a need to express it to every Tom, Dick, and Harry who comes along. My sexuality belongs to one man. I love to explore anything that has to do with sex, anything, as long as it doesn't include another human being.

I appreciate you starting a new thread with a considerably more civil tone, but again, you're slipping into this us versus them mentality. I'm not sure where you picked up this notion that women who strip for a living have some wanton desire to expose their bodies to as many men as possible, as if the thrill they allegedly derive from doing so were their primary reason for getting involved in this line of work in the first place.

I've seen some strippers (and plenty of non-strippers as well) that have those types of issues, but these ladies aren't on some quest to be the "alpha slut", or steal men away from "normal" women, or put a black mark on the entire female race. They're simply trying to earn a living. If flipping hamburgers or mopping floors payed as well as taking off their clothes, a great number of them (but certainly not all) would change careers in a second.

In short, at the end of the day, what these girls do is merely a job. No different than your job or mine. You're reading way more into what they do than is necessary.

Pamela
02-28-2004, 10:55 AM
I don't know what the hell i jumped into here, but i guess this means i should only buy cars, clothes, food etc. from a woman, so i don't give the man satisfaction of dealing with me. Sorry but this is what i am reading. I LOVE men!

Odd thread.

Pamela

polecat
02-28-2004, 11:03 AM
Oh, please, this is the stuff that simply puts women (and men, for that matter) down even further. Everyone has trust issues and everyone has insecurity issues. Whether you want to be courageous enough to admit it, that's your problem.

Then why the double-standard based on gender? It has nothing to do with "courage"- simply prejudice.

Fundamentally-

it seems you don't understand that by you standing their allowing a man to pay you to see your body is willfully putting yourself beneath him.

I think if you are going to lay-down any groundwork, you'll have to further clarify that particular point. From which I have two questions:

1) Specifically, why do you feel stripping/showing of one's body is degrading or putting yourself "beneath" the one paying to see this. Putting the loyalty/faithfulness argument totally aside (obviously, personal lines of "cheating" are going to vary, as they should, and that's a different argument)- concentrating specifically on what is the root reason for your feelings on balance here.

2) In the reverse scenario- say a male review/Chippendales stripper performing the same for a woman. Does the same "putting one's self beneath" the customer exist here in your opinion?

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 11:07 AM
But again, I realize that you girls don't seem to require as much from the men in your lives and you seem to work from a different definition of faithfulness. It might be a challenge for you some day to experience the type of man I'm talking about to see how much different it is and to see what you're really missing.



And no, it doesn't have anything to do with me being afraid to express my sexuality or me being 'dominated' by men. I just don't have a need to express it to every Tom, Dick, and Harry who comes along. My sexuality belongs to one man. I love to explore anything that has to do with sex, anything, as long as it doesn't include another human being.

I appreciate you starting a new thread with a considerably more civil tone, but again, you're slipping into this us versus them mentality. I'm not sure where you picked up this notion that women who strip for a living have some wanton desire to expose their bodies to as many men as possible, as if the thrill they allegedly derive from doing so were their primary reason for getting involved in this line of work in the first place.

I've seen some strippers (and plenty of non-strippers as well) that have those types of issues, but these ladies aren't on some quest to be the "alpha slut", or steal men away from "normal" women, or put a black mark on the entire female race. They're simply trying to earn a living. If flipping hamburgers or mopping floors payed as well as taking off their clothes, a great number of them (but certainly not all) would change careers in a second.

In short, at the end of the day, what these girls do is merely a job. No different than your job or mine. You're reading way more into what they do than is necessary.



I do realize that not every stripper goes into this for the same reason. But giving society something as precious as your sexuality and body, and taking money for it, even if it is stripping and not prostitution, is still the sale of one's integrity (in my opinion).

I hope I don't offend someone by sharing this, but this is from a book I have been reading (and it's not a Christian book, I promise!!). I apologize if it's a little long, but the things happening to women in this country really concern me (please don't put me down for having those feelings). The "prostitution" mindset is present in every human being on this earth.

But anyway, here it is:

The act of prostitution is generally associated with selling one's body for money, but to my mind that is perhaps the least significant example of Prostitute archetype. The Prostitute thrives most bountifully in subtle ways and in ordinary, everyday circumstances. It comes into play most clearly when our survival is threatened. Its core issue is how much you are willing to sell of yourself -- your morals, your integrity, your intellect, your word, your body, or your soul -- for the sake of physical security. The Prostitute archetype also dramatically embodies and tests the power of faith. If you have faith, no one can buy you. You kno that you can take care of yourself and also that the Divine is looking out for you. Without faith, however, you will eventually meet the price you cannot turn down.

The majority of Prostitutes that I have met and continue to meet are men and women who are either in bad marriages or in miserable jobs. Their inability to move out of their toxic environments is totally tied to economics. Women have told me that they do not want to be middle-aged and single, or lose their social status, or have to support themselves, and so they stay in unhappy marriages. Men tell me this too, but not nearly as often, and both men and women say that they remain in jobs that make them miserable or sick, violate their ethics, or make them feel bad about themselves for the sake of financial security.

Many people tell me how unhappy they are and that they are waiting for just the right moment in their lives to make the "big break" and follow their dreams. Most often, these are the people who ask again and again, "But what exactly is my Contract? If I only knew, I could get on with it." These people are actually hoping that I can direct them on a path that will guarantee them money and peace of mind. They want to hear that their Contract will give them all they want, a cabin retreat in the woods, and last but not least a soulmate. They also never want to age.

velvet
02-28-2004, 11:22 AM
just to let you know the post that so disturbed you by topaz stating she doesnt care for menfolk much. she is NOT a dancer or in the sex industry at all. kinda blows your theory doesnt it.

erotictonic
02-28-2004, 11:34 AM
I can see where you are coming from, American. After many years of dancing, I became tired of men looking at me, too. Therefore, I took a break from dancing, and played down my looks in public (no makeup, turtleneck sweaters, no hair highlights, etc.) If you don't want the attention, don't ask for it. Now I am ready for the attention again. I may have been a bow-wow in my last life, why not enjoy it??? You must not be having any fun, frigidity is miserable. I am speaking from experience.

I also see that you are frustrated because you are right, some people in society are superficial. I agree. It's a game. The human with the most toys wins, according to some. Don't get angry, live as the model you would like others to be. You have that much power. That is how you change the world. And yes, at this point in the game, the men are still in control. However, we are doing much better. There are alot of ignorant, controlling, immature men running rampant out there. I just choose to avoid them, as I am doing better than they are. They don't interest me... Don't be angry at us because we choose to play the game, and have fun doing it. You could be starving somewhere in Afghanistan right now, be thankful for what you have. You have to assess the situation you're in, then do your best according to what you have to work with (looks, brains, talents). You're not doing that.

You claim that you have never been cheated on, American. Alot of men do not act the same around their girlfriends as they do their friends. I thought I wasn't being cheated on either. Guess what? You may be extremely trusting and naive, as I was. If so, you are more than likely being taken advantage of. I would suggest that you somehow check that out...

There are men that don't go to strip clubs and act like fools out there. I think we all know that. We don't need you to tell us. We don't date those men knowingly, nor do we like them. There are a few great customers that we are happy to see when they walk through that door. There are many we don't like. As is the way of the world... Some of us have healthy, caring, loving relationships. However, we are more open-minded in our relationships. We don't try to squelch our sexual desires. It's human to look at others of the opposite sex, and depending on the person, of the same sex.

Tolerance is a big issue for you. Everyone is not going to feel like you do, nor live according to your standards. As long as a person isn't hurting anyone else, they should feel free to live as they wish. That's what being in America is all about, AMERICA. Thou shalt not judge, lest ye be judged. When you judged us, you asked to be judged: I find you frigid, unkind, angry, intolerant, rude, obnoxious, ignorant, close-minded, inexperienced and archaic. My mother is more open-minded... You have squelched your honest desires so long that you are angry at us for having fun.

You are holding back the women's movement in this country. The world is changing and humans are evolving, you are not. The people that live by your ideas are slowly dying off... 10 years ago we may not have had the few men that we do here arguing your points... You need to move forward. You remind me of some of the people in the small town I happen to live in. There is NOTHING that pisses me off worse than seeing a woman fighting her own liberation. I have come in contact with many of these, not unlike you... it seems to stem from ignorance, incompetence, lack of self-confidence, fear, or a combination of these. You seem to have the confidence and the will, what you lack is the education. Polecat is trying to educate you, open your mind to his ideas.

You are also generalizing us. There are men who work in this industry as djs, bartenders, bouncers, etc. who I consider to be exceptional people: mature, grounded, intelligent, kind, and loyal, as well as open-minded and tolerant. The dancers that come to this forum are intelligent, beautiful, responsible, reasonable, and helpful. You have to experience people before you know whether you like them or not. There are "good" and "bad" people who work in the sex industry. There are mature, well-adjusted people who work in the sex industry, and there are childish people with problems to overcome. As is ANY industry... Stereotyping people doesn't pay. What if you miss out on a great relationship with an exceptional individual because she/he is an accountant, and you've concluded that all accountants are boring?

When I found this site, I was angrier than you can probably imagine. I had just jiggled myself loose from a controlling, cheating boyfriend. I did say that I hated men, most could understand after they read my terrifying story. I received support, advice, and love from these people. Since, I have grown as an individual in many ways, with the help of the genuinely kind, caring people here. I didn't bash anyone, nor did I get bashed. The fact that you would act in this way proves to me that you are childish and ignorant. You are the one that is proving you lack human empathy, by having none for us!!!!! There are some beautiful people on this site - inside and out. How dare you stereotype us in this manner.

We're not giving anyone our bodies, we're allowing them to look at them, for a fee of course. We're lucky enough to have been born beautiful, and we're liberated enough to take our clothes off in public. We enjoy the flexibility of being able to work in any state in this country of our choosing. Alot of us can work in any club we wish to. Our schedules are extremely flexible. We go to work, some of us have a few drinks, we flirt, eat, converse, and enjoy life. 9 to 5 jobs don't offer the same perks. Alot of men would love to be in our shoes. If we are offered this lifestyle because we were born beautiful, why not take advantage? I could've been a hunchback in my last life! You need to enjoy who you are...

Furthermore, I don't see how you can say that we are putting ourselves beneath someone for allowing them to pay to see us naked. Is an accountant putting him/herself beneath me because I pay to have her/him prepare my taxes? Showing my body is a service, as an acountant preparing my taxes is. In any job, there usually is a hierarchical structure. Is a secretary putting themselves beneath their employer? It is an equal trade... you give me a certain amount of money, I'll dance. I'll give you a certain amount of money, you prepare my taxes. There aren't many clubs out there where women can see nude men. I'll be glad when there are.

You've never lived our lives, you have absolutely zero experience in an industry that we are pros in. Am I correct to imply that you've never even been to a strip club? Do you think we were born strippers? I'm sure that some of us grew up in very frigid, religious households with high "morals", hence we have lived in your world and experienced your feelings. Then, we became liberated. Some of us may have felt like you in the past, I know I have. It's miserable. If the men can do it, the women can too, damn it. That is the way to think, not "let's try and stop the men". I, personally, have lived on both sides of the equation, and I choose this one. Why do you think that is???? Because I'm damned happy, and I'm feeling more free and happy by the day. If I have lived on both sides, can you see that I may be more experienced than you are? Maybe you don't know as much as you think you do. Sure, there are tons of men out there fighting us. They have their own power to uphold, hence the name-calling. That's how they keep their wives under control. They don't want their wives to think like we do, they might have too much fun and leave. We're sluts when the wife is around, hot babes when the men are around. Currently, you are on their side, you are helping them. If they can go to strip clubs, and have promiscuous sex, why can't we?

You obviously do not fit into our world, nor do we fit into yours. Why are you here? The fact that you are gives me some hope that you will someday understand.

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 11:57 AM
just to let you know the post that so disturbed you by topaz stating she doesnt care for menfolk much. she is NOT a dancer or in the sex industry at all. kinda blows your theory doesnt it.



Who said that I thought ONLY women who work in the industry don't like men? So, no, it doesn't 'blow' my theory.

Blade
02-28-2004, 11:57 AM
And BW and I have come here for different reasons. BW had some things she really wanted to say, because she is really trying to understand the 'stripper' logic since she lives in Orlando. She simply asked me to get involved to give my opinion and offer her support. Is that such a bad thing?

And you don't think that this society is proving that women can only control men with 'sexuality.' Why does this thing with men have to have anything to with control? I don't understand that part either. I have been in relationships with men who have been raised in an alcoholic home (and fortunately, I haven't been), and the way their psyche works in relationship is....I'll get you before you get me. They view most everything in the relationship from a competitive standpoint. Their view of the world is simply survival. My heart goes out to people who have been raised this way, and yes, outside of this Website, I am trying to do my part to help some people understand that life and relationships is different than the way they were raised. This is not necessarily what I'm trying to do here. I came here simply to support BW.
I for one have had enough of being BASHED because and this is a direct quote"All men aren't like the men in the sex industry and all men are not like men who participate in things that the sex industry has to offer."Not for nothing but I am a devoted father, loving husband and in general a pretty nice guy. I DO NOTgive a rat's patootie what your objective is anymore...you are putting us dancers and djs down because of our JOBS, and insulting the customers who come into the stripclubs and spend their money on us.
"But again, I realize that you girls don't seem to require as much from the men in your lives and you seem to work from a different definition of faithfulness. It might be a challenge for you some day to experience the type of man I'm talking about to see how much different it is and to see what you're really missing."Don't require as much from the men in their lives?!? Thats a crock of shit! In order to be in a relationship with a dancer we men need to be even more supportive,understanding,gentle and tolerant.The stuff they deal with on a daily basis would destroy most women and it HAS destroyed many relationships!
You sit in your ivory tower thinking you are better than us and I cannot tolerate this anymore, you are no better than anyone of us...We are all human beings, some of us have made different decisions career wise and thats it...
And as far as the book you are quoting from..the whole quote has to do with prostitution, not dancing... thats like comparing fords and chevys!
My god you are so full of yourself!"straight females are usually not looking at me to be sexually-stimulated. They're looking at me to try to find a flaw so they will feel better about themselves. "I think you need to take a long hard look at yourself and try to figure out why you think you are so much better than EVERYONE!
I could go on and on with this thread, it's all a load of crap, but I'm getting quite upset by your attitude and simply refuse to deal with it anymore.

VenusGoddess
02-28-2004, 12:15 PM
This is the only thing I have to say to American: "No one can make you feel a certain way. No one can treat you in a way that you do not allow them to."

Your biggest problem (as with most of the people in the world) is that you are taking your problems/issues and telling other people that they are to blame for those problems. When, in fact, you are the only one to blame. You are the one who is responsible for your feelings and your reactions. You don't like how you feel in response to a situation? Then change yourself...but, alas...it's the easiest thing in the world to do...and yet the hardest at the same time.

For the longest time, I blamed my family for the feelings of insecurities that I had. After years of feeling powerless and "out-of-control", I realized that all my family gave me was an OPPORTUNITY to experience. What did I choose? I chose insecurity...now, I am faced with situations that give me the same opportunities (being a dancer) and I choose security. I do not let others ideals, opinions, words, whatever, influence what I choose to experience. It's all about me...it all comes from me...and it's all a free choice.

So, the question is: Now that you know that YOU are responsible for YOURSELF...for your actions, your feelings, your words, your beingness...what choice are you going to make?

It's time that you really took a long, hard look at yourself...stop blaming your "feelings" on others and find out why you are feeling the way you are. In the end, it has nothing to do with anyone else...only with you.

VenusGoddess
02-28-2004, 12:22 PM
And you don't think that this society is proving that women can only control men with 'sexuality.' Why does this thing with men have to have anything to with control? I don't understand that part either. I have been in relationships with men who have been raised in an alcoholic home (and fortunately, I haven't been), and the way their psyche works in relationship is....I'll get you before you get me. They view most everything in the relationship from a competitive standpoint. Their view of the world is simply survival. My heart goes out to people who have been raised this way, and yes, outside of this Website, I am trying to do my part to help some people understand that life and relationships is different than the way they were raised. This is not necessarily what I'm trying to do here. I came here simply to support BW.


The problem with this society is that we raise our children with the assumption that if they "do things just right" they can control anyone...yet at the same time...they refuse to take accountability for their own self. That's the whole problem in a nut shell.

I do not try to control anyone. I do not offer advice unless it is asked for (some just want a shoulder to cry on without hearing the "if I were you"). The more you try to control what someone does, says, thinks, views, etc, the more you find that you cannot control them.

American, I understand that you are "trying to save us from the world". However, you are attempting to control people who have minds of their own. As I said before...life is experience...you experience what you want, and let everyone else experience what they want...and there is no such thing as "I know how you feel...I've been there before...". It's not true, as your end-result/feeling will be different from mine.

jenna2479
02-28-2004, 01:00 PM
I feel so sorry for these two women who have so much hatred and insecurity. If you are truly happy with yourself, you wouldn't spend so much time posting on a stripper website. I'm sorry that you aren't as secure with yourselves as you would like everyone to believe. As for the type of man you are interested in American, he apparently isn't interested in you or you'd be dating him. He can probably see what a whack job you are. You're the typical head case no one wants to date and you, my dear, are the reason men cheat, not us. If I had someone like you nagging me all the time, I'd probably want to cheat on you, too. Men have been looking at women since the beginning of time and it won't stop any time soon. I could go out in a garbage bag and no makeup and men will still stare. Who cares? I stare at good looking guys, too. It must be hard to be as unhappy as you are and I pity you. Ladies, imagine walking around feeling like poor Amer. all the time, being so insecure. It really is quite sad.

Lexi
02-28-2004, 02:36 PM
Wow talk about insecurity and bullcrap. Ok, you got your point across, now why dont you join another board and shove your ridiculous beliefs down someone else's throats?
Whatever you and BW have to say will NOT change what any of "us" thinks.
Gimme a break, already, your posts are becoming tiresome and predictable.
Ok, so I dance for a living...big deal. I dont have a problem with men, and if they dont "respect" me in their minds, then I dont give a shit. As long as they dont disrespect me while I am in their face then why should I give a rats ass??? LOL

Blade
02-28-2004, 03:32 PM
I wonder how they would like it if we went on a "christian" site and trashed them?

Rayleen
02-28-2004, 04:13 PM
:troll: alert ! :troll:
American/Beautiful Woman

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 04:34 PM
I can see where you are coming from, American. After many years of dancing, I became tired of men looking at me, too. Therefore, I took a break from dancing, and played down my looks in public (no makeup, turtleneck sweaters, no hair highlights, etc.) If you don't want the attention, don't ask for it. Now I am ready for the attention again. I may have been a bow-wow in my last life, why not enjoy it??? You must not be having any fun, frigidity is miserable. I am speaking from experience.

I also see that you are frustrated because you are right, some people in society are superficial. I agree. It's a game. The human with the most toys wins, according to some. Don't get angry, live as the model you would like others to be. You have that much power. That is how you change the world. And yes, at this point in the game, the men are still in control. However, we are doing much better. There are alot of ignorant, controlling, immature men running rampant out there. I just choose to avoid them, as I am doing better than they are. They don't interest me... Don't be angry at us because we choose to play the game, and have fun doing it. You could be starving somewhere in Afghanistan right now, be thankful for what you have. You have to assess the situation you're in, then do your best according to what you have to work with (looks, brains, talents). You're not doing that.

You claim that you have never been cheated on, American. Alot of men do not act the same around their girlfriends as they do their friends. I thought I wasn't being cheated on either. Guess what? You may be extremely trusting and naive, as I was. If so, you are more than likely being taken advantage of. I would suggest that you somehow check that out...

There are men that don't go to strip clubs and act like fools out there. I think we all know that. We don't need you to tell us. We don't date those men knowingly, nor do we like them. There are a few great customers that we are happy to see when they walk through that door. There are many we don't like. As is the way of the world... Some of us have healthy, caring, loving relationships. However, we are more open-minded in our relationships. We don't try to squelch our sexual desires. It's human to look at others of the opposite sex, and depending on the person, of the same sex.

Tolerance is a big issue for you. Everyone is not going to feel like you do, nor live according to your standards. As long as a person isn't hurting anyone else, they should feel free to live as they wish. That's what being in America is all about, AMERICA. Thou shalt not judge, lest ye be judged. When you judged us, you asked to be judged: I find you frigid, unkind, angry, intolerant, rude, obnoxious, ignorant, close-minded, inexperienced and archaic. My mother is more open-minded... You have squelched your honest desires so long that you are angry at us for having fun.

You are holding back the women's movement in this country. The world is changing and humans are evolving, you are not. The people that live by your ideas are slowly dying off... 10 years ago we may not have had the few men that we do here arguing your points... You need to move forward. You remind me of some of the people in the small town I happen to live in. There is NOTHING that pisses me off worse than seeing a woman fighting her own liberation. I have come in contact with many of these, not unlike you... it seems to stem from ignorance, incompetence, lack of self-confidence, fear, or a combination of these. You seem to have the confidence and the will, what you lack is the education. Polecat is trying to educate you, open your mind to his ideas.

You are also generalizing us. There are men who work in this industry as djs, bartenders, bouncers, etc. who I consider to be exceptional people: mature, grounded, intelligent, kind, and loyal, as well as open-minded and tolerant. The dancers that come to this forum are intelligent, beautiful, responsible, reasonable, and helpful. You have to experience people before you know whether you like them or not. There are "good" and "bad" people who work in the sex industry. There are mature, well-adjusted people who work in the sex industry, and there are childish people with problems to overcome. As is ANY industry... Stereotyping people doesn't pay. What if you miss out on a great relationship with an exceptional individual because she/he is an accountant, and you've concluded that all accountants are boring?

When I found this site, I was angrier than you can probably imagine. I had just jiggled myself loose from a controlling, cheating boyfriend. I did say that I hated men, most could understand after they read my terrifying story. I received support, advice, and love from these people. Since, I have grown as an individual in many ways, with the help of the genuinely kind, caring people here. I didn't bash anyone, nor did I get bashed. The fact that you would act in this way proves to me that you are childish and ignorant. You are the one that is proving you lack human empathy, by having none for us!!!!! There are some beautiful people on this site - inside and out. How dare you stereotype us in this manner.

We're not giving anyone our bodies, we're allowing them to look at them, for a fee of course. We're lucky enough to have been born beautiful, and we're liberated enough to take our clothes off in public. We enjoy the flexibility of being able to work in any state in this country of our choosing. Alot of us can work in any club we wish to. Our schedules are extremely flexible. We go to work, some of us have a few drinks, we flirt, eat, converse, and enjoy life. 9 to 5 jobs don't offer the same perks. Alot of men would love to be in our shoes. If we are offered this lifestyle because we were born beautiful, why not take advantage? I could've been a hunchback in my last life! You need to enjoy who you are...

Furthermore, I don't see how you can say that we are putting ourselves beneath someone for allowing them to pay to see us naked. Is an accountant putting him/herself beneath me because I pay to have her/him prepare my taxes? Showing my body is a service, as an acountant preparing my taxes is. In any job, there usually is a hierarchical structure. Is a secretary putting themselves beneath their employer? It is an equal trade... you give me a certain amount of money, I'll dance. I'll give you a certain amount of money, you prepare my taxes. There aren't many clubs out there where women can see nude men. I'll be glad when there are.

You've never lived our lives, you have absolutely zero experience in an industry that we are pros in. Am I correct to imply that you've never even been to a strip club? Do you think we were born strippers? I'm sure that some of us grew up in very frigid, religious households with high "morals", hence we have lived in your world and experienced your feelings. Then, we became liberated. Some of us may have felt like you in the past, I know I have. It's miserable. If the men can do it, the women can too, damn it. That is the way to think, not "let's try and stop the men". I, personally, have lived on both sides of the equation, and I choose this one. Why do you think that is???? Because I'm damned happy, and I'm feeling more free and happy by the day. If I have lived on both sides, can you see that I may be more experienced than you are? Maybe you don't know as much as you think you do. Sure, there are tons of men out there fighting us. They have their own power to uphold, hence the name-calling. That's how they keep their wives under control. They don't want their wives to think like we do, they might have too much fun and leave. We're sluts when the wife is around, hot babes when the men are around. Currently, you are on their side, you are helping them. If they can go to strip clubs, and have promiscuous sex, why can't we?

You obviously do not fit into our world, nor do we fit into yours. Why are you here? The fact that you are gives me some hope that you will someday understand.



Why would you assume that women who don't enjoy being exploited are frigid? It seems to me that you're saying that you have to involve yourself in sexual exploitation in order to feel sexual, so actually you seem to be the frigid one. It seems you need this stuff in order to open up an avenue of sex that you aren't comfortable with expressing otherwise. Again, I'm not interested in that kind of life anymore.....been there, done that and won't go back like you have chosen to do. I choose not to 'sell' my body for any price whatsoever. If a man wants any part of my body, he will have to love me first. Again, my body is not for sale. That's not about controlling the man in my life either.....that's about love, commitment, and mutual respect.

And you are definitely playing the game.....a game that is still being run by men, whether you want to see it or not.....they're just using women in a different way than before. Women may not be home taking care of sick kids anymore while their men are out 'playing' around. And yes, you are definitely able to support yourself financially. But by giving the 'typical" male all the sexual pleasure he desires in the outside world, is actually giving him more than you are giving yourself. As long as women allow themselves to be 'used' for his sexual pleasure, men will always be in control.

And all I have to say to your comments about me possibly being cheated on without me knowing it is simply WOW!!! It seems you don't care much for men or think too much of them. Maybe you think ALL men cheat? Are you saying ALL men are losers?

And you don't squelch your sexual desires, and don't feel you have the right to ask more from your man? It seems that many have learned to put up with their men participating in sexual exploitation in order to keep them, afraid they will find another woman to supply that need. And you know what, that is most likely true. There will always be women willing to compromise and afraid to ask for what they deserve.

And I know this next comment is going to hit some nerves because no one in this society wants to accept any blame for their part in society's mess.......but how do you know that your behavior is not hurting others? Because you don't see the direct, immediate impact firsthand? Has anyone taken a look at society today? Yes, there has been dysfunction since the beginning of time, but have you taken a look at how many people are suffering from addictions, in prison? Do you have any idea how much rape, child abuse, incest have increased? Yes, these things have always been around, and I've heard the story.....oh, it's just being publicizied more. That's a bunch of malarky! 600,000 inmates are going to be released this year.....really messed up people because they are not being rehabilitated. And yes, our population is growing, but the growth is producing highly dysfunctional people.

The feminist movement is not working, girls. And I thought women were smart. The feminists are trying to 'prove' they don't need men. What the hell is up with that?! I for one love men....no, not the 'typical' male....but I would NEVER want to see a world without men. So you are right, I am fighting against liberation....at least the way you want to define liberation. Women have the power to turn this country around.....but again, the feminist is just making things worse.

And you are right, I know I will be judged by the measure I judge. I'm prepared for that, believe it or not.

And I am not interested in having 'promiscuous' sex; I'm interested in a different kind of sex. A kind of sex that maybe you've never experienced.

And yes, I have been to a few strip clubs, with my past SOs (and did enjoy it to some extent) and I am familiar with the 'game.' I just see how sexual exploitation is one part of America's problems. But I realize that is your goal.....being able to have sex with anyone you choose, anytime you want, just like your man. I'm not willing to play that game. I've tried to 'prove' I can be just like a man....but it didn't make things any better....and I no longer want to be promisculous with my body in any way. The the men continue being male sluts. All power to them!! Those kind of men will never really know it feels like to hold a woman in his arms that ONLY thinks about him and only wants to look at him.

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 04:46 PM
Oh, please, this is the stuff that simply puts women (and men, for that matter) down even further. Everyone has trust issues and everyone has insecurity issues. Whether you want to be courageous enough to admit it, that's your problem.

Then why the double-standard based on gender? It has nothing to do with "courage"- simply prejudice.

Fundamentally-

it seems you don't understand that by you standing their allowing a man to pay you to see your body is willfully putting yourself beneath him.

I think if you are going to lay-down any groundwork, you'll have to further clarify that particular point. From which I have two questions:

1) Specifically, why do you feel stripping/showing of one's body is degrading or putting yourself "beneath" the one paying to see this. Putting the loyalty/faithfulness argument totally aside (obviously, personal lines of "cheating" are going to vary, as they should, and that's a different argument)- concentrating specifically on what is the root reason for your feelings on balance here.

2) In the reverse scenario- say a male review/Chippendales stripper performing the same for a woman. Does the same "putting one's self beneath" the customer exist here in your opinion?





When I mentioned courage, I was talking about actually having courage to admit I have trust issues and insecurity issues at times. Is there anyone on here who can tell me they have NO trust or insecurity issues come up at all in their current lives?

I think I explained in another post why I think stripping/showing one's body is degrading. It's a form of 'prostituting' the body.

And you mentioned the male strippers....for one, it would not be totally equal UNTIL men are seen as sexual objects. Then it might be possible to consider that scenario in the same way.

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 04:54 PM
Blade, it seems you have misunderstood many things. I am not 'bashing' anyone. I am simply stating my opinions about people who are caught up in the world of the sex industry.

I would be interested in knowing how you people (girls and guys) would define sexual addiction. Is there such a thing? And what would it look like? What character traits would a sex addict have?

And Blade, if you go back and read my insert from the book.....it's not talking about prostitution in the sense of having sex with someone. Maybe you didn't read the entire post. Or maybe your mind could only concentrate on the word 'prostitute,' and your mind couldn't consider it to mean anything else but physical sex.

AND I AM NO BETTER THAN ANYONE ON HERE!! Period. I think my current choices are better, yes, but that in no way, shape, or form makes me better than anyone of you.

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 04:58 PM
This is the only thing I have to say to American: "No one can make you feel a certain way. No one can treat you in a way that you do not allow them to."

Your biggest problem (as with most of the people in the world) is that you are taking your problems/issues and telling other people that they are to blame for those problems. When, in fact, you are the only one to blame. You are the one who is responsible for your feelings and your reactions. You don't like how you feel in response to a situation? Then change yourself...but, alas...it's the easiest thing in the world to do...and yet the hardest at the same time.

For the longest time, I blamed my family for the feelings of insecurities that I had. After years of feeling powerless and "out-of-control", I realized that all my family gave me was an OPPORTUNITY to experience. What did I choose? I chose insecurity...now, I am faced with situations that give me the same opportunities (being a dancer) and I choose security. I do not let others ideals, opinions, words, whatever, influence what I choose to experience. It's all about me...it all comes from me...and it's all a free choice.

So, the question is: Now that you know that YOU are responsible for YOURSELF...for your actions, your feelings, your words, your beingness...what choice are you going to make?

It's time that you really took a long, hard look at yourself...stop blaming your "feelings" on others and find out why you are feeling the way you are. In the end, it has nothing to do with anyone else...only with you.



You've given some really good advice here. No one can make a person feel or do anything, I agree. I do make the choice to conclude that when certain men look at me, he's looking at me like I am a piece of meat! But he makes it pretty obvious, to be honest with you! :o :o :o

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 05:04 PM
And you don't think that this society is proving that women can only control men with 'sexuality.' Why does this thing with men have to have anything to with control? I don't understand that part either. I have been in relationships with men who have been raised in an alcoholic home (and fortunately, I haven't been), and the way their psyche works in relationship is....I'll get you before you get me. They view most everything in the relationship from a competitive standpoint. Their view of the world is simply survival. My heart goes out to people who have been raised this way, and yes, outside of this Website, I am trying to do my part to help some people understand that life and relationships is different than the way they were raised. This is not necessarily what I'm trying to do here. I came here simply to support BW.


The problem with this society is that we raise our children with the assumption that if they "do things just right" they can control anyone...yet at the same time...they refuse to take accountability for their own self. That's the whole problem in a nut shell.

I do not try to control anyone. I do not offer advice unless it is asked for (some just want a shoulder to cry on without hearing the "if I were you"). The more you try to control what someone does, says, thinks, views, etc, the more you find that you cannot control them.

American, I understand that you are "trying to save us from the world". However, you are attempting to control people who have minds of their own. As I said before...life is experience...you experience what you want, and let everyone else experience what they want...and there is no such thing as "I know how you feel...I've been there before...". It's not true, as your end-result/feeling will be different from mine.



You seem to be a pretty level-headed young lady, at least I assume you are young. :) I am not attempting to control anyone on here. You have the right to quit reading my posts. I am simply offering a different view of the world that many of you seem to have.

And you can't deny that human behavior is pretty basic (it's just that some behaviors get perverted and misused), so it's really not all that hard to figure out why someone does something and/or from what motives. When someone wants to get out of an addiction, he/she mostly likely will go to people who have been through the same or similar things. But I agree, you can't make someone want to change. But it still doesn't mean that you can't offer an opinion. And surely you understand that when people are able to overcome something......most often that comes with a genuine desire to help others overcome the same thing.

aphrodite
02-28-2004, 05:06 PM
Jenna and Lexi, you girls took the words right outta my mouth! :-X I did not further respond to the first post because it was obviously just a pathetic device absolutely SCREAMING for attention, and i didn't want to bring it up to clog the top of the boards again! lol!

this is more directed towards BW than American (if they are 2 ppl)
You should listen to the other women here...stripping has little to do with attention or respect...if we truly wanted/needed attention, we would go out on the street and disrobe for free...now that would really get ya noticed...or one could always go to a random forum and try to create an argument-but who would ever want to do a silly thing like that!! ::)

...the only reason we do what we do is for the money-the other aspects are merely perks.

I only mentioned stage dancing because you were blabbering :toldoff: on about how men look down on strippers... to prove the point that not all men disrespect the dancers. I could give a crap about respect as long as im getting their money. The attention isn't a factor--most nights i tip the DJ extra to keep me OFF stage bc i make more money out on the floor.

interesting that as soon as your old thread dies down you need to start a new one, feeling lonely were ya? ::)

This crap almost makes me MISS eyez! :rotfl: I want the old :troll: trolls :troll: back! LOL

BTW- did anyone ever clear up your "confusion" about prostitutes vs strippers? ONE F*CKS, one DANCES...there ya go

:) :puckerup: :)

enigma
02-28-2004, 05:07 PM
When I mentioned courage, I was talking about actually having courage to admit I have trust issues and insecurity issues at times. Is there anyone on here who can tell me they have NO trust or insecurity issues come up at all in their current lives?

I think I explained in another post why I think stripping/showing one's body is degrading. It's a form of 'prostituting' the body.

And you mentioned the male strippers....for one, it would not be totally equal UNTIL men are seen as sexual objects. Then it might be possible to consider that scenario in the same way.


AMERICAN,

I must agree with many of the others posting here. You talk about people prostituting their bodies. We "prostitute" many things in the name of security. People sell themselves all the time in the name of acceptance in one from or another. There are more psychological theories on this than I can count right now, and they all stem from individual montivations. Whatever your motivations are, you harbor the same drives as we all do. Yet, what you describe as degrading is another's form of acceptance. What you describe as acceptance, is another's form of degradation. There are many people and theories that hold that being seen as an "object" may actually be a sign of self acceptance. I know many self confident men and women who do not mind dressing up, acting sexy, etc. because they have the drive, confidence and ability to do so. They do not feel degraded. They feel empowered and self aware. Their individual confidence allows them to take the steps out of the shadows and show themselves to society the way THEY want to be seen. It's their own individual style. But, how do we know when someone acting this way is seeking acceptance or is self confident? WE DON'T. And, for you to place labels in unfair, much like convicting the innocent to death even in the face of doubt.

I do not presume to understand your motives for posting here, but I can give examples of your errors. My wife and I are very happy. She is one of the most beautiful women I have seen. Still, she knows I am a man, and a self confident man. She knows I look at other women, and I know she looks at other men. We often comment on them to each other, and we don't mind. We are secure in who we are and our relationship. One of my wife's best friends is a former dancer who danced at a top club in Atlanta under the name Simone many years ago. Still, I think my wife is prettier than her friend. We talk about the ways society approaches the object/person dichotomy. Recently, we have been watching "Average Joe" Hawaii" and we laugh about it. My wife is conviced the hunk will be chosen because the girl is so blatant about the looks issue, but I firmly believe in the average guy. He's what she really wants, but she has trouble coming to that conclusion. Guess what...the show is all about a woman with object issues! It's not just men that do that. Men are not the only ones who lie, cheat, meander, ogle and succumb to all manner of deviant desires. It's a human trait. It's what makes us who we are. We are not perfect, and to expect otherwise is only inviting severe dissappointment.

I don't know of anyone who doen't have some demons locked away deep in the recesses of their minds for whatever reason. In the process of life, we walk through many doors for many reasons. We form opinion after opinion for right or wrong. Be aware that fear, whether recognized or not, is a major motivator in those formations. From your posts, it's clear there is something there. What it is, I cannot say. I would suggest that you look into getting the book "Love is letting go of fear", by Gerald Jampolsky, MD. It's an excellent book.

I wish you well, and hope that you find whatever it is you seek. Realize you need to let it go...we all do.

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 05:14 PM
I feel so sorry for these two women who have so much hatred and insecurity. If you are truly happy with yourself, you wouldn't spend so much time posting on a stripper website. I'm sorry that you aren't as secure with yourselves as you would like everyone to believe. As for the type of man you are interested in American, he apparently isn't interested in you or you'd be dating him. He can probably see what a whack job you are. You're the typical head case no one wants to date and you, my dear, are the reason men cheat, not us. If I had someone like you nagging me all the time, I'd probably want to cheat on you, too. Men have been looking at women since the beginning of time and it won't stop any time soon. I could go out in a garbage bag and no makeup and men will still stare. Who cares? I stare at good looking guys, too. It must be hard to be as unhappy as you are and I pity you. Ladies, imagine walking around feeling like poor Amer. all the time, being so insecure. It really is quite sad.



And why would you assume I am not dating and/or married to someone like this? You have assumed wrong. It seems you just actually can't believe there are men like this.

And you are obviously a very malicious, deceitful, manipulative person. Another reason that proves, to me, that many women in this industry are really not very 'good' people. But I realize that most on here haven't used the hatred toward BW and me that you have shown in this post......so I'm not talking about ALL of you, I promise.

And yes, almost from the beginning of time, there have been women and men who have no idea or desire to living according to certain 'rules.' Some people like to pick and choose which 'rules' they should follow. It seems that many on here do have rules in their relationship. I wonder where you get those rules from? Why not just live a completely hedonistic lifestyle? Why follow any rules at all?

Katrine
02-28-2004, 05:18 PM
This will be brief.

American, I want to apologize for being obnoxious in my previous posts. I do not think you are a "troll" per say and I can ignore your posts if I choose, but these threads are very interesting to me as a sociologist who focused quite a bit of research on sexuality and society. Usually trolls create inflamatory statements then dissapear. You have made the effort to address us. Your opinion is not going to be popular here, but I think a bit o the ole debate might be a nice change:

I can't say much, other than comments like

"Those kind of men will never really know it feels like to hold a woman in his arms that ONLY thinks about him and only wants to look at him"

bring up the argument that this type of thought and behavior is counterintuitive to both men and women both biologically and psychologically. This begs the question of how our sexuality relates to the propogation of the species and evolution. I just truly believe that any society, not just US, cannot completely discourage wayward glances, impure thoughts, infidelity, and a sex industry because we must support what makes us want to live and breed, ie happiness. Different societies deal with this issue in different ways, with varying success....

maybe more later on this........


Oh, and ladies, I don't think we should begin to insult American's attractiveness or ability to "get" a man, now that we are having a more civil discussion. Let's drop Katrina Ad Hominem and discuss the validity/reliability of her theories first. The same goes to you American....no one here needs to know that you are more beautiful than any of our photos...there is no way to prove that because photos can be doctored and cyberspace is full of liars....

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 05:23 PM
Jenna and Lexi, you girls took the words right outta my mouth! :-X I did not further respond to the first post because it was obviously just a pathetic device absolutely SCREAMING for attention, and i didn't want to bring it up to clog the top of the boards again! lol!

this is more directed towards BW than American (if they are 2 ppl)
You should listen to the other women here...stripping has little to do with attention or respect...if we truly wanted/needed attention, we would go out on the street and disrobe for free...now that would really get ya noticed...or one could always go to a random forum and try to create an argument-but who would ever want to do a silly thing like that!! ::)

...the only reason we do what we do is for the money-the other aspects are merely perks.

I only mentioned stage dancing because you were blabbering :toldoff: on about how men look down on strippers... to prove the point that not all men disrespect the dancers. I could give a crap about respect as long as im getting their money. The attention isn't a factor--most nights i tip the DJ extra to keep me OFF stage bc i make more money out on the floor.

interesting that as soon as your old thread dies down you need to start a new one, feeling lonely were ya? ::)

This crap almost makes me MISS eyez! :rotfl: I want the old :troll: trolls :troll: back! LOL

BTW- did anyone ever clear up your "confusion" about prostitutes vs strippers? ONE F*CKS, one DANCES...there ya go

:) :puckerup: :)




I didn't start a new thread because the other one 'died' down. It simply was getting too long. 10 pages, I think it was.

And it appears you didn't read the excerpt from the book either. It used the word 'prostitute' only as a description of someone selling themselves for certain things. A prostitute is a man or woman 'selling out' for physical security.....it doesn't have to do with just physical sex.

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 05:36 PM
This will be brief.

American, I want to apologize for being obnoxious in my previous posts. I do not think you are a "troll" per say and I can ignore your posts if I choose, but these threads are very interesting to me as a sociologist who focused quite a bit of research on sexuality and society. Usually trolls create inflamatory statements then dissapear. You have made the effort to address us. Your opinion is not going to be popular here, but I think a bit o the ole debate might be a nice change:

I can't say much, other than comments like

"Those kind of men will never really know it feels like to hold a woman in his arms that ONLY thinks about him and only wants to look at him"

bring up the argument that this type of thought and behavior is counterintuitive to both men and women both biologically and psychologically. This begs the question of how our sexuality relates to the propogation of the species and evolution. I just truly believe that any society, not just US, cannot completely discourage wayward glances, impure thoughts, infidelity, and a sex industry because we must support what makes us want to live and breed, ie happiness. Different societies deal with this issue in different ways, with varying success....

maybe more later on this........


Oh, and ladies, I don't think we should begin to insult American's attractiveness or ability to "get" a man, now that we are having a more civil discussion. Let's drop Katrina Ad Hominem and discuss the validity/reliability of her theories first. The same goes to you American....no one here needs to know that you are more beautiful than any of our photos...there is no way to prove that because photos can be doctored and cyberspace is full of liars....





Thank you so much Katrine for your thoughts. It's okay that no one agrees with me or BW. We surely didn't expect that!! ;) I have actually enjoyed getting to know some of you a little better.

And you are right, we are all sexual creatures and we do have a natural desire to be sexually-stimulated....visually, emotionally, spiritually, and physically. But at least for me, I think we also have the RESPONSIBILITY to accept more of ourselves and learn self-control in this lifetime. For example, why is it necessary to learn self-control when it comes to anger but not in the arena of sex? It just doesn't make sense to me. Personally, I am free of the bondage that sex had over me since I was 12 years old. When I say that, I know I run the risk of you thinking that I know 'hate' sex or whatever....which is 100% totally and completely inaccurate. My sexual desires do not control me anymore. I actually have control over those desires just as much as I have control over anger now. And I really think each of one us, male and female, would really like to experience a relationship with a person who actually is self-controlled in every thing they do. We have just become accustomed to thinking that these kinds of character traits don't exist in human beings.

erotictonic
02-28-2004, 05:36 PM
WE ARE NOT BEING SEXUALLY EXPLOITED. From your viewpoint, anyone who works is being exploited. An accountant is being exploited because I am paying for the information he has in his brain. Reread my post. You obviously learned nothing from my points, which I predicted, from seeing your obviously close-minded approach to life. I have not danced in 4 yrs., which obviously shatters your idea that I needed that in order to have a fulfilling sex life. WE ARE NOT SELLING OUR BODIES. I believe I explained that in my post, as well, but again, the broken record. I expect love, commitment, and mutual respect from my SO as well.

I believe that I already said in my post that men are still in control. What is going to happen is as women become more sexually liberated, male strip clubs will become more popular. There is one in my area already. Society is not going to regress, it is going to progress. Women are not going to become more frigid, they are going to become more open.

I think that when I described some men that work in the sex industry as being "exceptional people, mature, grounded, intelligent, kind, and loyal", I was saying that I like them. Can you not put two and two together and see that I don't hate all men from reading my post? The reason I am saying that you may be cheated on, is because there are alot of predators out there seeking women as ignorant and naive as you are. To think that a man is not going to look at other women is ridiculous. WE LOOK AT BEAUTIFUL THINGS... HOUSES, CARS, PAINTINGS, FLOWERS, BODIES. IT'S HUMAN. I ADMIRE BEAUTIFUL BODIES OF BOTH GENDERS. IT'S BECAUSE I ENJOY IT. I am single, so there is no man influencing me to do so.

How do you know that YOUR behavior is not hurting others?

Yes, society is producing dysfuctional people. However, a man who enjoys going to a strip club is not hurting anyone. He is not a rapist, a molestor, a murderer, etc. We should be able to do what we wish as long as we don't hurt others.

Also, I should've known better than to waste my time... I already knew you were ignorant AND close-minded. You're right Polecat, she is a broken record, and a lost cause. We're just waiting for people like this to die off so we can progress.

THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT IS NOT WORKING?????????????????????????? WHAT THE FLYING FUCK IS THAT STATEMENT?????????????? ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT WE ARE NOT DOING BETTER THAN WE WERE 50 YEARS AGO?????????????? Not needing men is a good thing. By not needing men, we can financially support ourselves, and we are independent. That forces men to step up to the plate and have more to offer us, because we are free to leave them if we are unsatisfied in any way.

To say that I have never experienced great sex in a committed relationship is ridiculous. I believe I also explained that in my last post.

FROM THIS POST, I HAVE CONCLUDED THAT YOU ARE UNABLE TO REASON CLEARLY. YOU DID NOT DRAW THE CORRECT CONCLUSIONS FROM READING MY POST. YOU NEED TO REREAD IT.

I also believe that if two people have promised one another to be loyal, they should be. However, if one is single, they should be able to have sex with anyone they want and not be labeled a slut. You can not assume that because someone dances for a living or sleeps around promiscuously that they will never experience a great committed relationship. Again refer to my previous post. There are many men who work in the sex industry who are loyal to their wives, have great relationships, and are happy.

YOU LEARNED NOTHING FROM MY POST. REREAD IT.

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 05:47 PM
Going back and reading that excerpt from that book I quoted, I realize I didn't explain it clearly so I apologize. I was writing that as quickly as I could, as I was on my way out of the house. Sorry.

When she is using the word 'Prostitute,' she's not talking merely about selling one's body for physical sex. She's talking about the 'Prostitute' as being an archetype, one part of 12 character traits in every human being. Everyone (you, me, your mother, your brother, etc.) has this character trait in them. It's from a book entitled Sacred Contracts written by Caroline Myss if you're interested. Here's her Website: http://www.myss.com/

AMERICAN
02-28-2004, 05:49 PM
WE ARE NOT BEING SEXUALLY EXPLOITED. From your viewpoint, anyone who works is being exploited. An accountant is being exploited because I am paying for the information he has in his brain. Reread my post. You obviously learned nothing from my points, which I predicted, from seeing your obviously close-minded approach to life. I have not danced in 4 yrs., which obviously shatters your idea that I needed that in order to have a fulfilling sex life. WE ARE NOT SELLING OUR BODIES. I believe I explained that in my post, as well, but again, the broken record. I expect love, commitment, and mutual respect from my SO as well.

I believe that I already said in my post that men are still in control. What is going to happen is as women become more sexually liberated, male strip clubs will become more popular. There is one in my area already. Society is not going to regress, it is going to progress. Women are not going to become more frigid, they are going to become more open.

I think that when I described some men that work in the sex industry as being "exceptional people, mature, grounded, intelligent, kind, and loyal", I was saying that I like them. Can you not put two and two together and see that I don't hate all men from reading my post? The reason I am saying that you may be cheated on, is because there are alot of predators out there seeking women as ignorant and naive as you are. To think that a man is not going to look at other women is ridiculous. WE LOOK AT BEAUTIFUL THINGS... HOUSES, CARS, PAINTINGS, FLOWERS, BODIES. IT'S HUMAN. I ADMIRE BEAUTIFUL BODIES OF BOTH GENDERS. IT'S BECAUSE I ENJOY IT. I am single, so there is no man influencing me to do so.

How do you know that YOUR behavior is not hurting others?

Yes, society is producing dysfuctional people. However, a man who enjoys going to a strip club is not hurting anyone. He is not a rapist, a molestor, a murderer, etc. We should be able to do what we wish as long as we don't hurt others.

Also, I should've known better than to waste my time... I already knew you were ignorant AND close-minded. You're right Polecat, she is a broken record, and a lost cause. We're just waiting for people like this to die off so we can progress.

THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT IS NOT WORKING?????????????????????????? WHAT THE FLYING FUCK IS THAT STATEMENT?????????????? ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT WE ARE NOT DOING BETTER THAN WE WERE 50 YEARS AGO?????????????? Not needing men is a good thing. By not needing men, we can financially support ourselves, and we are independent. That forces men to step up to the plate and have more to offer us, because we are free to leave them if we are unsatisfied in any way.

To say that I have never experienced great sex in a committed relationship is ridiculous. I believe I also explained that in my last post.

FROM THIS POST, I HAVE CONCLUDED THAT YOU ARE UNABLE TO REASON CLEARLY. YOU DID NOT DRAW THE CORRECT CONCLUSIONS FROM READING MY POST. YOU NEED TO REREAD IT.

I also believe that if two people have promised one another to be loyal, they should be. However, if one is single, they should be able to have sex with anyone they want and not be labeled a slut. You can not assume that because someone dances for a living or sleeps around promiscuously that they will never experience a great committed relationship. Again refer to my previous post. There are many men who work in the sex industry who are loyal to their wives, have great relationships, and are happy.

YOU LEARNED NOTHING FROM MY POST. REREAD IT.





For starters, I can't imagine women really wanting to be like the 'typical' male. And that's what you call progression?