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Beautiful Woman
02-29-2004, 10:45 PM
Greetings to you in return!!


Negative. Although I did bounce for a stripclub several years ago. The handle is simple wordplay on being a Polish Leo.

I like it.


That personifies the double-standard AND the controlling factor- men; male-dominated fundamentals and a male-dominated culture. A heterosexual man doesn't want to see another man naked, so therefore this becomes the guideline. A male also enjoys seeing female nudity, but with circumstances (i.e. can't be his wife, his girlfriend, his relatives, etc.etc.).

I couldn't have said this better myself. I have a question for you.....you said that men enjoy seeing nudity but with circumstances.....it cannot be his wife or girlfriend. I always felt that might be the case....WHY do you feel that is?


Women aren't supposed to be sexual animals by this set of doctrines. They aren't allowed to get aroused from male nudity and they are condemned as such. It's simply old-school "un-ladylike" and ghastly improper. These are the walls that are being torn down because it's unnatural and controlling.

I like the way you've stated things. I agree with this too. Curious, did you read my post? (Yeah the quite long one)....


Covers both genders. A married woman is also a target for a more zealous single male. Chalk it up to human nature- the kind described here exists in both genders. You just see more emphasis on the female perspective since a man that goes around sleeping around with married women is socialized as a "stud"- where a woman that sleeps around with married men is a "slut" or "whore" or similar. Mainstream attention always focuses on the negative.

I will have to take your word on this b/c I've never been married. I am however dating someone & I can relate to what you've said just from that experience.
I am used to being hit on quite a bit in general by males. However, strangers wouldn't know if I was single or not. Whenever I am dating a guy, his male friends and some of my male friends seem to come out of the woodwork behind my man's back trying to get me to date them.
Also, many married women seem to need more attention and more sex (not just the married ones I'm sure...) and men do their best to run to other women and give others attention and sexual energy. Now, if women are "needing" it and men are "wanting" it then why not work together on that issue? Women seem way undersexed....go into any porno store and look at the sex toy section...which gender are most of the toys geared toward. The women!!


Pretty close. It's more of the "slut" or "whore" syndrome. Women should be devices/objects for the male ego, and therefore not allowed to get their ya'ya's by Christian, Muslim, Catholic or any other founding values.

Now this makes complete sense. I like what you've written here. However, in strip clubs it is just like society - women feeding the male ego, women not getting their sexual ya ya's (women have always been able to get $$ for sex...prostitution is one of the oldest professions), women are naked there and not men, read below for more on this....



I do not understand what you mean by this. How my view helps perpetuate the double-standard that hold women at bay? I missed HOW/WHY that is the case.

To put it simply- to consider a woman who is capitalizing on the wrongful basis in our society as being somewhat lesser of a person or being debased/objectified is feeding the very basis they are dispelling by doing such. They are taking something wrongfully "taboo" and proving daily it shouldn't be "taboo"... and those that still consider it as such propensifies the myth.

How is it different? What is the different form?

OK....I have agreed with you up until this point. This partly goes back to the "wanting" and "needing" thing. Ok...I am going to say something very stereotypical but here goes.....I currently live in the South so I've become familiar with rednecks. Redneck men seem to always have photos of naked women on their bedroom walls (watch the show cops while they're getting arrested to see an example....)....and wear t-shirts with almost nude women on them etc. etc. etc. Redneck females are very much into "my man" and having beauty contests and redneck men are into bikini calendars etc. etc. In my opinion, rednecks are into this type of stuff much more so than the average male.
A recent psychological study which I read showed the difference between Northern and Southern men (to me they just concluded the obvious....) and Southern men seem to have this mentality that they are in charge of women and they like to put them in their place etc. etc. Earlier you mentioned that men like to look at nude women as long as it isn't their wife, g/f, etc. as a power thing. So if they are looking at other nude females as a power thing, then HOW can men see strippers in a positive light if he is just using her to have power over another female? If he is using her then he isn't going to see the sexual power that she really has. I doubt the redneck at a strip club cares if she is enjoying her sexual energy or not.
There is something that I have seen happen many times in relationships which I've personally noticed just from my observations. A couple will date for years and years then break up.....immediately the man (could be a woman too but I'm using a male in my example) will go meet and marry a different female within a few weeks or months after meeting her. Initially I thought that he must have known her longer than a few weeks or months until I read about this very thing. The man is "getting even" with the woman he had a long-term relationship with. At the same time, he constantly talks about his old lover to his new wife to piss her off too. He is able to upset 2 women at the same time and sometimes even cause a cat fight....(rednecks love for their women to have catfights over them). He is using them for his personal power and enjoyment. To me, that example seems to describe why a lot of men go to strip clubs.
Also, I am not sure what is "taboo" that strip clubs are proving shouldn't be "taboo". I think that female nudity is "taboo"...I don't think it should be....I don't see how strip clubs help prove that it shouldn't be taboo at all.
I do know this guy that goes to strip clubs quite often. Recently, he told me that he went out with a group of friends and this girl with large breasts was wearing a shirt that showed her cleavage. He said that he felt the need to try to help cover her up. He felt that she didn't respect herself for doing that. On Alyasabeth's website, she said that once men get to know strippers they don't feel right tipping them anymore (or something like that..I cannot recall the exact quote offhand). In other words, men want women to cover up unless it benefits them it [email protected][email protected]?
Now, most men would LOVE to have a 3some with 2 women. However men, for the most part, would refuse to have a 3some with another man. I am not talking about men in the sex industry but with a woman they love involved. Since freedom means getting rid of "taboos" wouldn't women be getting more power sexually if they got men to start shedding theirs? Strip clubs are everywhere....a dime a dozen practically....they've been around for decades yet the change in society for women sexually is still in the dark ages. Obviously something is not working or wrong here. I think a woman would have to have a lot of power to be able to get her man to have a 3some with another man. I mean virtually any female could become a stripper if she wanted to be one.
Also, in many Southern towns it seems that the streets go like this....strip club on the corner, church on the next corner, pawn shop and/or liquor store on the next corner.....repeat. I personally feel that many Christians use their religion to be mean and nasty to others. They might feel good by telling others they are "going to hell" while they are sinning behind closed doors. Christians and strip clubs are always butting heads with each other and condemning each other. Could it be b/c they are both corrupt with their misuse of power and are really more alike than they are different?


That's unfortunately how most people view this kind of subject.. at first. It's taken from a pompous, empowered standpoint but has to be a bit dramatic and strong in order to make an impact. The fundamental values are sound, but the presentation is very egotistical. I think the more exposure you have to the subject matter, the less loathesome you'll find her words to be.

Yeah but when you say that is how most people view this stuff "at first" - you are only referring to people that have changed their minds. Obviously, people that have changed their minds felt differently to begin with.
I felt that her website was completely the opposite of empowered, I felt she was being a bully which to me is always a sign of weakness.


It's because they are finally realizing it's OKAY to find sexuality (and in public!) arousing. Even heterosexual women are starting to find the stripclub experience fascinating as it shows women being sexual animals and the response given to them by men. It's even more empowering if these women are brought IN by men in order to demonstrate it's okay and acceptable.

I thought that it was to get attention from the males without having to do any of the work. In other words, men would find it cool to be with a female that was OK w/ going to strip clubs which would bring them attention. They get the same attention as the strippers without having to remove their clothes.



Why do you believe that cultures have set aside most sexual roles typically for males?

Because all societies and cultures were built and formed by males. It's all about control. What you can't control goes into bondage. Not a new concept at all.. and is pretty well illustrated in (of all places) the Bible.

Very good point.


Hostess/gown clubs and the upper-upper scale clubs like you find in NY/Manhattan are where VIP's aren't $200-$300 but usually $1K+, and the women do the least amount of nudity/stripping.

I've learned something new. What does the least amount of stripping mean?


Nudity and displaying sexual prowess. Men are allowed (and expected) to exhibit sexual prowess do this in the everyday, normal bar/club environment.

If men cannot do this it is still OK for the most part. He can still get women to marry him especially if he makes a somewhat decent living.


It's socially deplorable for a woman to do this anywhere *except* in a stripclub.

Women are doing this all over the place...go to the mall, beach, store, etc. Look at how short cheerleader uniforms are getting. Women are not being held back from dressing sexually by any means.


Ten years ago, a woman that showed an interest in pornography or seeing arousing materials of a physical nature were unacceptable.

Men in their raincoats had to do that too....I think the internet changed this industry....not strip clubs.


The more sexually liberated you see women become in society, the more harsh will be the backlash. This is why you will find Alsybeth's words so indignant- because it's coming from someone that has dealt with this harshly for an extended period of time. Her angst and choice of presentation is justified, albeit not as constructive as it could be to someone new or just entering the subject matter.

I agree that she seemed harsh b/c of built up frustration (and others things I'm sure)....


To be honest, I've always found the stripclub environment fairly deplorable myself- as it has been stereotypically an arena that men use as an outlet to behave in ways that would get them slapped across the face in normal society, as well as women kissing their asses and putting up with it as long as the cash was rolling in- talk about double-negative reinforcement.

Women kissing their asses for money doesn't sound liberating or like women have the power!! That sounds like typical society now....

It is changing though as things become more mainstream. I'd say from viewing the environment from the inside 10 years ago, to seeing it from a customer's perspective today (and those years between avoiding like the plague!), I see a change in purpose and novelty in the clubs overall. I'd say the stereotypical "patron" is about 80% majority still, but a more healthy 20% or so are now attending. This involves more liberated, progressive thinking individuals, couples and women. The dancers at these clubs have also similarly changed- with a MUCH more educated, liberated and intelligent ratio entering this line of work.

Lilith
02-29-2004, 11:19 PM
Women have done a beautiful job turning even the decent men in this country into a bunch of perverts......why not use your power in a more constructive way?

And are men so truly weak that they are helpless babes subject to our every whim? Or do they, as I surmise, have minds of their own? It's called personal responsibility, and you obviously have no sense of it.


Maybe some of you will change your story in years to come when you finally see it's not working for you and your looks and bodies become old and wrinkled and your husbands leave you for younger, more beautiful women (you sure won't be the sex able to get a young stud).

This is beyond laughable. Quick lesson here, American; one cannot use absolutes in debate, as even one instance which you claim is impossible makes your argument baseless. The head diva at my club not only makes the most money while being the oldest woman there, but is also married to a man young enough to be her son, which totally refutes your preposterous claims. And that is why your arguments are so much hot air; you spend vast amounts of energy making up a fantasy set of "facts" and trying your damnest to force it to fit in with reality.

And heaven forbid we use too many big words with you. You claim that we are nothing more than the sum of our parts and an obscene desire to exhibit them, but when we prove you wrong then we are merely "uppity". You are going to be desperately disappointed when you discover that the world and people in it are not whatever one-dimensional creatures that you announce they are, and that the vehemence of said announcements does not change that.

Lena
02-29-2004, 11:20 PM
Pryce,

Maybe if the insults, egos, and emotions were weeded out this thread could become more intellectual? Just a thought.

Beautiful Woman,

Hey, you proved me wrong. Kudos for keeping your mind open and using it! :-)

I think you made a couple points several pages ago that I can't find now (I did try) and I'm not sure if anyone answered them, so I'll give it a try.

You said that you felt Alysabeth was saying that she was going to take your man weather you liked it or not. I didn't perceive it that way. What I "heard" was:
a) Any marital problems belong in your marriage, not the club.
b) It's not the end of the world if your man looks at a stripper, actually it's rather normal and often healthy.

Let's take that McDonalds analogy a little farther. Say every morning you faithfully prepare a healthy, low-cholesteral breakfast for your husband. And lets say that every morning he eats or pretends to eat the healthy breakfast and then sneaks a McSnausage before work. Now, is this a problem in your marriage? Maybe. Probably. But do you blame McDonalds for tempting or corrupting or stealing your husband? Should the teenager behind the counter refuse your husband service because he might be married? Do you think she even gives a shit?

And second... you quoted a study about socialism to deviance in strippers. I don't remember what one and I can't find it. You said it was in a soc book so I think it was the study by Skipper and McCaghey? If so, David Scott addressed the invalidities of their study in his book, "Behind the G-String." He offers his own theory which is slightly more believable and acceptable. BUT, as long as we're talking about sociology, what about lived experience? You are talking to a bunch of strippers, ya know. ;-)

And as long as I have the books out, American keeps trying to make this point about strippers being sexually aggressive, deviant, evil, etc. Well, Edwin Wagner actually did a study on that very idea. He tested strippers, exhibitionists, and a control group for exhibitionist tendencies, sexual disturbance, and aggression. He found that strippers when tested at work scored higher than the exhibitionists on the exhibition scale, but were normal with no noticeable difference from the control group on the sexually disturbed and aggressive scales.

Food for thought...

Lena

Lena
02-29-2004, 11:24 PM
Oooh, and to quote Alysabeth, again:

"I realized that it wasn't scary, that the things I assumed a woman would feel standing nude in a roomful of strangers (scared, exposed, humiliated, subservient, compromised) weren't what these dancers were feeling, and that because the experience wasn't what I would have thought, the reasons that brought each woman to that experience weren't what I would have thought (desperation, apathy, self-hatred, emotional disturbance), either.

Blade
02-29-2004, 11:38 PM
I would like to ask you, Blade, IF it were possible to have a gorgeous, blue-eyed, long-haired blonde (may not be your hair color but just imagine), who works out every single day, 5'5", 125 pounds, tight and toned and tan, who is the mother of your beautiful children, who is extremely uninhibited in the bedroom, who loves to give you oral sex ANYTIME you ask her (but you have to be sweet and not demand it), who will dance for you to turn you on, loves anal sex if you love anal sex, loves to bring herself to orgasm while you watch, loves to receive oral sex, keeps up her appearance, takes care of your home, is there when you want to talk, and proves by her actions that she only fantasizes about YOU.......wouldn't you rather have this kind of woman than a woman that takes off her clothes to turn other men on and talks about other men's gorgeous, muscular, perfect bodies all the time?

Well............I am that kind of woman. And you know what? You probably don't believe it. And if you don't, then that proves my point that you are hanging around the wrong kind of woman. But again, maybe you're not interested in this kind of woman? Many men actually are. They just are starting to believe that women like me don't exist. And we are definitely becoming a dying breed.

The woman you describe sounds excellent albiet she isn't my kind of woman entirely.I have the woman of my dreams in Deanna,the only minor differences being size and hair/eye colour. The major difference is my ideal woman enjoys being a fantasy for others as well as me. When I first met Dea she wasn't a dancer and really wasn't too much into the idea of becoming one. I was working as a bouncer (must break into song..I was working as a waitress in a coctail bar when i first met you..) at a strip joint to make extra money and saw how much the women were making on a nightly basis. It was more than both of us were making weekly combined!She had recently had our second child and wasn't feeling too pretty, even tho I felt she was prettier than 90% of the dancers I worked with, but I thought her dancing would be a great way for us to get ahead, so I mentioned it to her and was shot down.She however did decide to bartend and see what kind of money,atmosphere etc.. were involved.Flash foward 2 years or so later and I jokingly mentioned it to her again (I thought it would be cool to see her dance onstage for my 30th birthday) and this time she said ok. Well she loved it!
We have both always been exhibitionists, in one way or another so becoming a dancer seemed like a normal transition for her.
As far as her talking about other men,once the bitching about work is done with there is no mention of other men,except if we happen to see a decent looking guy and usually I bring it up"damn that guy is built" or damn that guy has awesome hair"(I'm bald mostly by nature so I suffer from a bad case of follicle envy!)Not to mention I can appreciate the natural beauty of the human form whether or not it belongs to a male.
You say I would not believe you are the kind of woman you've described but you are wrong. I have no idea or proof of what you look like so I have to believe that you are as you describe. I disagree with you that the type of woman you descibe is becoming a dying breed, I feel that for the most part they are morphing into the women that you see represented on this site.The difference being, these women take off their clothing for work.
Both Dea and I have plenty of friends/family that don't go to stripclubs or look at pornography and thats fine by us.
I have noticed that the majority of friends or family that live that life are , for the most part, miserable unhappy people who make rash judgements about others without fully understanding the situation. Have we lost friends or family because of our choice of jobs? No. In fact the ones that have bothered to mention it at all usually realize we are consenting adults and are free to choose the lifestyle we see fit.Granted we don't work 9-5, we work noon-7 or 6-close, but it allows us both more time to dedicate to our children(family is VERY important to the both of us.) and their school.My parents worked conventional jobs as I was growing up and there were plenty of school events they couldn't make it to because of work schedules,both Dea and I have made it to every school function and will continue to do so as long as we are able to.We both realize that her dancing can't last forever and I can only spin cds for so long as well.I am able to go to school because of my job, and after I graduate Dea can also attend school if she desires.All this and money too...I have to end this post by saying I love my family, my job and my life and wouldn't change a thing about it.

LoveSexMoney
03-01-2004, 12:07 AM
deeezam BW, averaging 10+posts a day?

What was it Charlie Brown's teacher said?

Oh yeah, "Wah wah. Wah wah wah, wah wah wah. Wah was wah."

Beautiful Woman
03-01-2004, 12:10 AM
Dear Pamela,

I liked how candid you were with your reply. Since you said your 'next' man will be your equal does that mean you've never had a b/f be your equal before? Usually people that like to be in charge never end up with an equal b/c that doesn't balance out. So I was just curious. Good luck and let us know how it goes!!



American....I find myself as being a very tough woman. Hard to tie down. And if i did not want to put myself inside a club for money i would not. I like to take the lead (control) at times. And the man i am with next, we will be equals! I do not put myself at the mercy of a man and his money. Actually instrip clubs, i agree to an extent we are dependent on our behaviour if he pays up.

Try phone sex! Who's in control then? ME. He pays me, i give a fantasy, if i don't like him...I simply hang up.

Pamela

Lilith
03-01-2004, 12:30 AM
Examples of statements made as "fact" without proof to back them up:

People "caught up" in industries that objectify women (or men for that matter) really have no idea what it feels like to be a whole person, without the need to get attention from other people.

Women strip, pose nude, dress provocatively, basically, because they have a deep desire to feel important, to feel needed, to feel desired, to feel noticed.

They feel inferior to men, and they have found a way to receive POWER and CONTROL, through means of a very deceptive and manipulative way.

Most here have probably been raised in very male-dominated homes.....or raised around men who were very domineering. This is the way to get back at them, I suppose!!??

Seems to me that I can relate to your world and mine. But you can't relate to both, because you've never been where I am.

We are trying to help people be 'better' people, people who really do respect human life.

Participating in any form of pornography, no matter how often it is, is choosing something that is not love for your wife.

In days past, I did enjoy this attention, but since then (now that I actually am secure with myself), I don't get a 'thrill' from this type of behavior, or this type of man. It seems that you girls still are attracted to this type of man.

And by women being willing to have sex with women these days and by becoming visually stimulated by women's body and by pulling up our blouses at Mardi Gras.....aren't we only giving men more power and pleasure?

And there will be more and more women cheating on their spouses, exploding with anger, abusing the people in their lives, becoming addicted to drugs to hide shame, more serial killers........and there will be more women in prison due to aggressive behavior that men are so well known for.

What women with mindsets similar to yours have done is only made it even more difficult to get a job in the 'normal' world comparable to that of a man, with equal pay.

Women with your mindset are teaching men even further that we are just sex, sluts, and here for a man's pleasure.

But take that same woman and put her in to the world of business and she will be treated only like a body by the majority of men she works with.

Women have done a beautiful job turning even the decent men in this country into a bunch of perverts

If you really desire to debate, then give us the facts to back these statements up.



Quotes both condescending, evident of a superiority complex and/or just plain insulting:

These women really have no sense of self-worth or value.

it is very obvious that the women on here really do not like men at all and have no respect for human life, in general (male or female).

You have no idea how you have let environment and society control and shape you, do you?

But you will never experience the kind of relationship that comes with complete faithfulness...mind, body and soul of a man. That is something you will never experience. You probably don't even think it's possible.

...but you are scared to death to lose your man if you don't use your body to keep him. Boy, that would be awful to have a marriage/relationship like that!

I've seen the pictures of the women on here so far, and not to be cocky or conceited, but just stating the truth, I am more attractive and have a better body than anyone on here.

Is that what you want someone to love you for and remember you for when you pass for this earth? Simply a body!? That's sad you have set such low standards for yourself.

And to reply to this DJ guy, do you really think that your wife only thinks of you when she makes love to you? Trust me, she doesn't....

She has to use images of other people to keep up her attraction to you. (This is talking to Blade in reference to his wife)

You don't love her and aren't attracted to her when you make love to your wife......your mind wanders and fantasizes about every other woman you have objectified in your mind that day.

You guys and gals are addicted to the high of sexuality. You have no clue what love is.

And yes, I personally feel that when a woman dresses a certain way out in public, she is most definitely trying to get my "man's" attention. (I know that she is like this because I enjoyed 'stealing' away that attention from other women in years past, unfortunately.)

And believe it or not, there are men out here who aren't like men you girls have encountered.

But again, I realize that you girls don't seem to require as much from the men in your lives

It might be a challenge for you some day to experience the type of man I'm talking about to see how much different it is and to see what you're really missing.

And straight females are usually not looking at me to be sexually-stimulated. They're looking at me to try to find a flaw so they will feel better about themselves.

Or straight women are looking at me to see what they can change about themselves, to improve their looks, which only adds to their low self-esteem issues.

It seems you need this stuff in order to open up an avenue of sex that you aren't comfortable with expressing otherwise.

And I am not interested in having 'promiscuous' sex; I'm interested in a different kind of sex. A kind of sex that maybe you've never experienced.

But I realize that is your goal.....being able to have sex with anyone you choose, anytime you want, just like your man.

It seems you just actually can't believe there are men like this.

And you are obviously a very malicious, deceitful, manipulative person. Another reason that proves, to me, that many women in this industry are really not very 'good' people.

Someone accused me of stating that strippers are evil. And before now, I haven't used that word, but I'm going to use it now only because you've mentioned it.

It seems to me, with all of his seemingly deliberate 'intelligent' words thrown into his poast (word that aren't used in everyday language, by the way, but which I can understand of course and don't mind looking up the ones I don't know!) and the way he seems to deliberately form his sentences, he is trying to prove something and trying to intimidate my intelligence. I wasn't interested in playing his game. He knows what I'm talking about too. I've been around men who are trying to 'prove' their intelligence and actually feel inferior around women. Men like this don't realize how transparent they really are.

I've gone back and reread Polecat's post, and I have to take back some of what I said because I think I got his language confused with some woman on here that likes to use her 'educated' words to prove her intelligence.

I chose not to respond to him, [snip] because he was obviously a man trying to do what I said in my last post. I wasn't interested in playing his game, as I said.

Hike up the skirt, lower the blouse, buy tighter clothing, get the sexy eyes and voice going, let the men you work for know you work as a stripper (though maybe some of you strippers keep that private). If you don't realize women like this exist, you haven't stepped foot in many business offices or courtrooms lately, have you? No, all women aren't like that.....FORTUNATELY!!

Maybe some of you will change your story in years to come when you finally see it's not working for you and your looks and bodies become old and wrinkled and your husbands leave you for younger, more beautiful women (you sure won't be the sex able to get a young stud).

[snip long rant about how gorgeous she is] wouldn't you rather have this kind of woman than a woman that takes off her clothes to turn other men on and talks about other men's gorgeous, muscular, perfect bodies all the time?

I am that kind of woman. You probably don't believe it. And if you don't, then that proves my point that you are hanging around the wrong kind of woman.

Some men really get off in fantasy world. No problem. But yes, there are MEN and WOMEN who are don't objectify human beings. You just haven't been around them.


In short, you believe that you are perfect and everyone else is not nearly as good as you, especially strippers but probably all other women as well.

What truly galls is that, despite having never met a one of us, you have decided long beforehand exactly what we are like personally, what we do in our private lives and at work, what our love lives are like, what our sex lives are like, who we are attracted to, what our childhood was like... etc etc etc ad nauseum. Either you believe you are psychic or have the omniscence of a god. That, or perhaps you are a mere megalomaniac.

If you ever want to know why you will never convince a one of us that you are all-knowingly perfect and we desperately need you, just re-read the above insults or arrogance until it sinks in. I find it especially ironic how you deplore the way "all women" want to steal your man, yet make statements to the effect of how easily you could steal Blade away from his wife... because you are so much better than she is. *snort*


Physician, heal thyself. A message of "love" and "empowerment" given in hate and superiority does not hide your hypocrisy. The only thing you are effectively conveying right now is hate for everyone not exactly like you.

Lexi
03-01-2004, 12:53 AM
First of all, you two (BW and American) Need to learn how to quote if your going to quote that much. Yeah everyone makes mistakes, but damn! Your quoting is almost unreadable as I dont know who said what.
Anyway you ladies are the ones with the issues, its not us! Get a grip, and take all that advice you give, and follow it. Dont preach to us what we should do...no one is going to listen to you both.
How would you like it if we tried to make you believe stripping was right? Oh thats right, you wont "sell" your integrity cause you'd rather live on the streets than do that. LOL What a crock of shit.

Lexi
03-01-2004, 12:57 AM
;D

vanilla_dog
03-01-2004, 12:58 AM
:lurk::toldoff::irked: :gnasher: :argue: :bomb::banghead: :headache: :beat:

Beautiful Woman
03-01-2004, 01:08 AM
Dear Polecat,

I think you might be wrong about this one. I have been around a lot of body-builders and GQ type men that get stared at for their looks. I used to only date GQ hottie type men. I just asked a hottie male friend of mine that is always getting attention from women how he feels about it....he said he feels uncomfortable if it is excessive or too invasive....but if it is subtle and nice he enjoys it. At clubs strange women will come up and grab his package....he is always shocked and VERY annoyed by that level of aggressiveness. I've known other hot males that have felt that way too.
The type of attention that American mentioned below is excessive and invasive. As a female, I am often asked by strange men if my rack is real or fake. That is very annoying. It has nothing to do with sex. I wouldn't ask a stranger if that was their natural hair color....about a tattoo on their body....etc. etc.
If anything, men are babies when it comes to women gawking at them compared to how women complain that men do it to them. I've known and dated enough hunks and body builders to know about this.


The question is, why exactly are you tired of of being "treated" this way?


I say this as men receive the same if they are exceptional. Body builders, "hunkish" men that compete and whatnot are similarly gawked at by women when going to the gym, at the grocery store- even if wearing non-provocative clothing. You don't ever hear men complaining though as it's societally accepted.

I read it that you are still living a mindset created by men to force you to feel guilty or "cheap" about your sexuality. This mindset was conditioned into you since the self-awareness of your sexuality is deemed "dirty" or "improper"...
Things that get our attention have a natural inclination to GET that attention. To inhibit such is a travesty as we are denying our inner instincts.

American males are obsessed with breasts much more than males from other countries. If it was the natural instinct of males then it would be all of them. Also, the difference between animals and humans is the ability to control their primitive instincts and not act on them - a very basic sign of maturity!!


Stronger discipline is placed on women for their natural urges, and to ease such discipline for men- it's either culturally accepted they gawk and look openly, or women are chided/inhibited from exposing flesh to remove the temptation.

Good point!!


If you flip the tables and think for a moment from the alternate perspective- it's currently men against men, and we give women what WE want.

How is this the case?

LoveSexMoney
03-01-2004, 01:10 AM
Lexi, that was cute! and soooooooooo much more entertaining! ::)

Lexi
03-01-2004, 01:16 AM
haha thanks sapphire ;) I thought it was fitting... and would cause a little laughter in a boring, redundant thread.

BW, DAMN you are still up? Posting all day and all night, my god girl, you must really be bored. Yeah yeah, the wisdom teeth. Whatever....
Anyway, please make this more interesting, SOMEHOW PLEASE!!!!!!!

LoveSexMoney
03-01-2004, 01:19 AM
well, for wisdom teeth pain, Vicoprofin makes evvvvverything more interesting! hahaha

Lexi
03-01-2004, 01:19 AM
;D as for your posts and retarded babbling....

AMERICAN
03-01-2004, 07:28 AM
Well unlike you american I NEVER generalized all women that don't "share their bodies with the world" as uptight,figid and inhibited in fact I didn't even use those words so please DO NOT put words in my mouth. I do not generalize anyone since I don't appreaciate when it is done to me. The comment I made was directed towards you and what I have seen in your posts. And my response to your last comment I didn't disagree with you on what i said. I know many people that don't objectify others in any way shape or form so don't tell me who I have been around or who I know. What I said was if you think that your man never thinks about another or never looks at another he is lying to you... unless he never leaves the house, never goes online, and you don't own a t.v..



Maybe I have failed to distinguish between noticing and appreciating an attractive person and looking at them in a sexual way. When a man turns around and looks at my ass, at least to me, that is a sexual look. Would you agree? That kind of look, I do not appreciate. And a man doesn't just have to turn around and look at my ass for me to consider it a sexual look. Most of the time, those kinds of looks are rather obvious.

polecat
03-01-2004, 10:12 AM
Hello BW!

I think, from your commentary and digestion of what's been given, we are getting closer to an understanding.. which is a good thing! Thank you for your patience and I hope American will resume an effort to try and do the same.

Some direct points-

Earlier you mentioned that men like to look at nude women as long as it isn't their wife, g/f, etc. as a power thing. So if they are looking at other nude females as a power thing, then HOW can men see strippers in a positive light if he is just using her to have power over another female?

Bingo. You are describing the two dynamics of stripclub patrons/workers, the one I described as being what I consider an 80%/20% split at current.

Not all people going to stripclubs do so to feel "power" from seeing women strip/perform nude for them. The go to intellectually engage and appreciate them, they go to enjoy sexuality on a more wholesome level and tip accordingly for the privelege. If you go between the pink and blue sites, you'll see the term "ATF" thrown around much- which designates a singular dancer that patrons prefer to see almost exclusively and surely the primary reason for revisits. It isn't the woman that they get the biggest power-rush from, 90% of the time it's the one that they get a more human connection with or feel closer to as a human being.

Some strippers also perform more as healers/therapists. A lot of lonely, and more socially inept customers find their way into the only place where members of the opposite sex will give them the time of day. Of course, the fact that money is involved for such attention doesn't help things, but it is therapeutic and can help boost their confidence and ego. There is no "power" exchange here, unless a particularly greedy or unscrupulous stripper takes advantage of this scenario, then it's reversed. For the most part, women in the upper scale clubs don't take advantage of this, provide near surrogate-level companionship, advice and nurturing to shy individuals who can benefit from such.

Lastly, of course, is your example.. the customers that get a rise out of objectifying women and feel that while they pay a cover charge, they are free to behave like jackasses, cop free gropes, and horse-and-carrot dancers as far as they can for the minimal amount of cash. Some even get a rise out of trying to rip-off dancers by promising large tips/money then failing to deliver or running off. You can't remove this element from society, but they surely are not the sole visitors to clubs.


A couple will date for years and years then break up.....immediately the man (could be a woman too but I'm using a male in my example) will go meet and marry a different female within a few weeks or months after meeting her. Initially I thought that he must have known her longer than a few weeks or months until I read about this very thing. The man is "getting even" with the woman he had a long-term relationship with. At the same time, he constantly talks about his old lover to his new wife to piss her off too. He is able to upset 2 women at the same time and sometimes even cause a cat fight....(rednecks love for their women to have catfights over them). He is using them for his personal power and enjoyment. To me, that example seems to describe why a lot of men go to strip clubs.

You are absolutely correct... on all counts. The "get even" rebounder does exist with both genders, and it's the result of a shallow and insecure character. Shallow and insecure people also get a kick out of going into stripclubs and being jackasses... so you're model indeed fits. It just doesn't apply to the whole.

That aside, I think it is somewhat natural to get a little crazy after a long and passionate relationship. Love makes ya' do the whacky sometimes, ya' know? But it's a true sign of growth when we've gotten the immature and shallow rituals out of our system and able to identify there is no good there. People relatively inexperienced in relationships (and losing them) really need to learn first hand so dictating to them the way it *should* be rarely is constructive.


I think you might be wrong about this one. I have been around a lot of body-builders and GQ type men that get stared at for their looks. I used to only date GQ hottie type men. I just asked a hottie male friend of mine that is always getting attention from women how he feels about it....he said he feels uncomfortable if it is excessive or too invasive....but if it is subtle and nice he enjoys it.

I can't say my near-daily experience agrees with what some guy was willing to divulge to you. I hang with fellow bouncers, two of which are very "hunky", of which one has taken the local city titles 3 years straight for pro-competition body building. The women attention they eat up and then some.


At clubs strange women will come up and grab his package....he is always shocked and VERY annoyed by that level of aggressiveness. I've known other hot males that have felt that way too.

Well, DUH.. Where did actual fondling of the goods from a total stranger come from? We were talking about women feeling the need to "bundle up" and wear burkas in public because when men look at them, you consider it somehow degrading or objectifying. I don't recall there being any discussion about strangers walking-up and fondling their breasts or groping a feel elsewhere.


American-

When a man turns around and looks at my ass, at least to me, that is a sexual look. Would you agree? That kind of look, I do not appreciate. And a man doesn't just have to turn around and look at my ass for me to consider it a sexual look. Most of the time, those kinds of looks are rather obvious.

Just because you don't appreciate it doesn't mean it should become the nationwide measuring stick for proper behavior. Obviously, if you want to hide your ass, that's your right and you may do so freely. No one is going to condemn you for doing such, but you seem to still remain content condemning anyone else that feels comfortable NOT hiding their ass. It's a double-standard. Not everyone feels the way you do, deal with it.

And lastly, I don't appreciate American coming around specifically trying to rattle people's cages then act surprised when they wake the sleeping lions. The women here simply don't need it and don't deserve it... I'm happy Erotictonic put it the way it is- and was more gentle than I would have been.. I think getting hit by a gas truck and tasting your own blood would have been more fitting. It's plain shallow and childish when any points of direct rebuttal are just simply ignored or blown-off with downright condescending (and incorrect) labeling. I would have hoped a certain maturity level could be maintained for a "civil" discussion, so don't be shocked when people drop down to your level in hopes the message might only then be understood or absorbed.

Rayleen
03-01-2004, 11:49 AM
I did a member profile search for American- and found http://hometown.aol.com/lovingamerican/

notice the link to AFA- American Family Association.

A fundlementalist group that's mission statement is~

http://www.afa.net/mission.asp

it's your basic bigot propaganda orginazation. :loco:

SCGirl
03-01-2004, 12:22 PM
LMAO....I just skipped forward about 5 pages....and ya'll are still talking about the same damn thing!....BW lay off the posts honey, you're makin' me dizzy! Oh, and also, I'd just like to add that in a response you made somewhere to one of my posts (please God don't make me go look it up to quote it--which, btw, is a concept that you still haven't gotten a good grasp on yourself) you mentioned stripping as "my" lifestyle....I'm not a stripper! Not that I'm insulted that you called me one, just pissed off that you two keep assuming stuff--didn't ya mama tell ya that to "assume" makes and ASS out of YOU (not me, cuz I don't really give a shit).

AND NOW......TO END THIS ETERNAL QUESTION.....I GIVE YOU THE ANSWER TO MALE FEMALE EQUALITY......


BLAME YOUR OBGYN NOT YOUR LOCAL STRIPPER!
Shulamith Firestone--take the birthing process out of the female body; and Rich--ignore and reroute the male institution of birthing (since MEN came up with all the "medicine" and rules surrounding pregnancy, birth, and childrearing) and give the power back to midwives. Read Charlotte Perkins Gilman's "Herland."

BW and American, your fight is with the male OBGYNs, not us (and by "us" I mean the people on this forum, NOT just strippers/exotic dancers) so go post on WebMD, not StripperWeb!

SCGirl
03-01-2004, 12:29 PM
oh.....and to second myself.....go see Passion of the Christ....maybe then you'll realize that you have more important things to be thinking about and fighting for. Go worry about YOU and only YOU and how YOU can be a better person. Don't worry about saving the rest of us--someone else already did that--it's not your job.

Lilith
03-01-2004, 01:42 PM
Yes, Rayanna, I saw that. The only links are to three Christian websites and a quote from the New Testament. Did I call this or did I call this?

It reminds me of the new Incubus song. "You're no Jesus..." The song is appropriately titled "Megalomaniac".

Blade
03-01-2004, 01:49 PM
Damn I thought Incubus was singing about me. Oh well I thought Carly Simon was singing about me too...

AMERICAN
03-01-2004, 04:54 PM
Yes, Rayanna, I saw that. The only links are to three Christian websites and a quote from the New Testament. Did I call this or did I call this?

It reminds me of the new Incubus song. "You're no Jesus..." The song is appropriately titled "Megalomaniac".



Just to set the record straight, BW does not support the Christian groups that I am a part of, so don't link her to the sites on my AOL profile. And I'm proud that someone finally did some checking on me...something I expected. Why would I give you my e-mail address if I didn't want you to find out more information about me. What took you so long, my friends?

And so with that information, it definitely makes sense why you get so upset and get furious with my views.....I'm straight out convicting your immorality and most of you will go straight to hell when that day of judgment comes. And that, guys and girls, is simply the truth. :o

Sorry, BW, I just had to do it!

AMERICAN
03-01-2004, 04:55 PM
Yes, Rayanna, I saw that. The only links are to three Christian websites and a quote from the New Testament. Did I call this or did I call this?

It reminds me of the new Incubus song. "You're no Jesus..." The song is appropriately titled "Megalomaniac".



I don't think you would recognize Jesus if he was standing right in your face.

Emily
03-01-2004, 04:59 PM
Was it really necessary to quote the same post twice in a row? (inspired by Lexi)....

AMERICAN
03-01-2004, 05:12 PM
Was it really necessary to quote the same post twice in a row? (inspired by Lexi)....



Oh, my gosh, I didn't realize there were rules like that!!! Will someone please send me the StripperWeb rule book ASAP!! You girls have some strict rules, I'm telling you. WOW!!

Katrine
03-01-2004, 06:11 PM
And so with that information, it definitely makes sense why you get so upset and get furious with my views.....I'm straight out convicting your immorality and most of you will go straight to hell when that day of judgment comes. And that, guys and girls, is simply the truth

Aaaaaaaaaah, I return from a day of suffering from a bout of "stripper flu" to see that this debate has gone the way of all conversations with fundies: Neenerneener....you're going to hell while I'll be double-teaming Jesus and St. Peter".....

I'm scurrrrrrrred.... :scared:

Katrine
03-01-2004, 06:13 PM
What happened with the other thread???

Lilith
03-01-2004, 06:32 PM
I don't think you would recognize Jesus if he was standing right in your face.


Ah, and now we get the impled claim to being Jesus. It's a slam-dunk- you're a psychopath.

Lilith
03-01-2004, 06:42 PM
Just to set the record straight, BW does not support the Christian groups that I am a part of, so don't link her to the sites on my AOL profile.

To set the record even straighter, I've never mentioned BW. The quotes were all yours, as was the reference to your site.


And I'm proud that someone finally did some checking on me...something I expected. Why would I give you my e-mail address if I didn't want you to find out more information about me. What took you so long, my friends?

You're playing rather fast and loose with that "friends" bit. I happen to be a tad more discerning in my friends than you assume.


And so with that information, it definitely makes sense why you get so upset and get furious with my views.....

You don't have a view that I can see. You have mass hatred and a despite for everyone who doesn't bow down to your supposed perfection.


I'm straight out convicting your immorality and most of you will go straight to hell when that day of judgment comes. And that, guys and girls, is simply the truth. :o

Sadly, you do not realize that Buddha keeps track of your hatred and you will pay penance for it in the afterlife. Here's hoping that you mend your ways before it is too late.

By the way, pride is an abomination before Yahweh and using your body like that to tempt Blade, a married man, makes you a common harlot. So you're screwed either way.

Blessed be,
Lilith, devoted child to the Goddess of the same name












You might think I mentioned that to merely irritate you. You would be correct.

Lilith
03-01-2004, 06:44 PM
Katrine, Pryce blended the two threads in the same manner that he did Danielle's Drama.

polecat
03-01-2004, 06:49 PM
I don't think you would recognize Jesus if he was standing right in your face.

Funny, Jesus' disciples didn't even recognize him after the resurrection.. until he broke bread and did the first prayer... and they were with him for quite some time prior.. I wish the thumpers actually read what they were thumping so as they might make a little sense.

Besides, if the second-coming ever happens, I'm buying that guy a lapdance. We can repent together over a pint at the local pub afterwards.

doc-catfish
03-01-2004, 06:50 PM
I'm straight out convicting your immorality and most of you will go straight to hell when that day of judgment comes. And that, guys and girls, is simply the truth. :o
Ahh yes, I remember seeing your type when I was in college. They would stand outside the student union and tell us all that we were ALL going to hell. Some made the mistake of doing their proselyting a wee bit too close to the campus fountain.
:finger:

I wouldn't worry everybody. American is just sour that she's reserved to condemning us through the internet as opposed to having her holier than thou minions hunt us all down, incarcirate us, and burn us at the stake.

By the record that she's shown here, she'll be burning in Hades with the rest of us. Maybe you can let her borrow your sunblock.
:hot:

LoveSexMoney
03-01-2004, 07:08 PM
I'm straight out convicting your immorality and most of you will go straight to hell when that day of judgment comes. And that, guys and girls, is simply the truth. :o

Oh gosh, who was it who said..."Judge not, lest ye be judged"

Gee, I know I've read that somewhere before! *smirk*

:seesaw: Go jump in a lake of fire yerself.

AMERICAN
03-01-2004, 07:20 PM
Just to set the record straight, BW does not support the Christian groups that I am a part of, so don't link her to the sites on my AOL profile.

To set the record even straighter, I've never mentioned BW. The quotes were all yours, as was the reference to your site.


And I'm proud that someone finally did some checking on me...something I expected. Why would I give you my e-mail address if I didn't want you to find out more information about me. What took you so long, my friends?

You're playing rather fast and loose with that "friends" bit. I happen to be a tad more discerning in my friends than you assume.


And so with that information, it definitely makes sense why you get so upset and get furious with my views.....

You don't have a view that I can see. You have mass hatred and a despite for everyone who doesn't bow down to your supposed perfection.


I'm straight out convicting your immorality and most of you will go straight to hell when that day of judgment comes. And that, guys and girls, is simply the truth. :o

Sadly, you do not realize that Buddha keeps track of your hatred and you will pay penance for it in the afterlife. Here's hoping that you mend your ways before it is too late.

By the way, pride is an abomination before Yahweh and using your body like that to tempt Blade, a married man, makes you a common harlot. So you're screwed either way.

Blessed be,
Lilith, devoted child to the Goddess of the same name




You might think I mentioned that to merely irritate you. You would be correct.



You are brilliant!! ;D ;D

AMERICAN
03-01-2004, 07:21 PM
I don't think you would recognize Jesus if he was standing right in your face.

Funny, Jesus' disciples didn't even recognize him after the resurrection.. until he broke bread and did the first prayer... and they were with him for quite some time prior.. I wish the thumpers actually read what they were thumping so as they might make a little sense.

Besides, if the second-coming ever happens, I'm buying that guy a lapdance. We can repent together over a pint at the local pub afterwards.





You are exactly correct in your statement about Jesus' disciplines.

AMERICAN
03-01-2004, 07:23 PM
I'm straight out convicting your immorality and most of you will go straight to hell when that day of judgment comes. And that, guys and girls, is simply the truth. :o

Oh gosh, who was it who said..."Judge not, lest ye be judged"

Gee, I know I've read that somewhere before! *smirk*

:seesaw: Go jump in a lake of fire yerself.



Yes, and as I've said before, I am ready to be judged by the same measure I am judging you.

Gynger
03-01-2004, 07:32 PM
First of all, what I do is between me and GOD. It is people like you that reaffirm my actions in running away from religion-PERIOD. And, for the record, I was raised Christian, and all those brothers and sisters.. well they treated me like crap-I have been treated better by people who have had no values or religious beliefs than those belonging to organized religion. And, I do believe strongly in God.. however, you, along with anyone else has no right to say who is going to hell, because if I am correct here, your initials are not J.C. What anyone does is between them and God, and if you read your good book accordingly, I’d love to challenge you to some scriptures that will state my case in point! And quite honestly, as someone said recently, if heaven is going to be filled with closed minded assholes, I’d rather be in hell.. the company would be better! One more thing American: WWJD (what would Jesus do) I do not think he’d be posting on a site telling everyone that they are going to hell….. point made: You are just like every other Christian I have ever met-judgmental and accusing.

AMERICAN
03-01-2004, 07:41 PM
I'm straight out convicting your immorality and most of you will go straight to hell when that day of judgment comes. And that, guys and girls, is simply the truth. :o



First of all, what I do is between me and GOD. It is people like you that reaffirm my actions in running away from religion-PERIOD. And, for the record, I was raised Christian, and all those brothers and sisters.. well they treated me like crap-I have been treated better by people who have had no values or religious beliefs than those belonging to organized religion. And, I do believe strongly in God.. however, you, along with anyone else has no right to say who is going to hell, because if I am correct here, your initials are not J.C. What anyone does is between them and God, and if you read your good book accordingly, I’d love to challenge you to some scriptures that will state my case in point! And quite honestly, as someone said recently, if heaven is going to be filled with closed minded assholes, I’d rather be in hell.. the company would be better! One more thing American: WWJD (what would Jesus do) I do not think he’d be posting on a site telling everyone that they are going to hell….. point made: You are just like every other Christian I have ever met-judgmental and accusing.





I don't think Jesus was getting drunk with the drunkards and sleeping with the prostitutes and fantasizing about the dancers he spent time around. I believe he was preaching and teaching them, trying to convert them. And his disciples did the same thing. In addition to that, he commanded his believers to spread the gospel too. If you were raised Christian (and if you consider yourself to be a Christian and a believer), have you read the scriptures that commands you to teach the gospel? If you have, you can understand that by me being here pointing out sin is something He would want me to do (although the reason we are here is because of BW and not my Christian views). If you read her posts, she has been hardened in ways that are similar to yours. I've been thankful over the last several years that I wasn't raised in a church (for several reasons). BW is here to discuss the issues separately from Christianity or religion. She's just trying to understand the stripper mentality. So everyone's assumption that we are here to convict you of sin is simply not true.

You mentioned Christians treated you like crap? Why? Because they didn't agree with your lifestyle?

And I didn't name anyone specifically who is going to hell. But the scriptures are full of descriptions of people who seem to fit the descriptions of many on here.

erotictonic
03-01-2004, 07:41 PM
I can't believe you would spend the short amount of time you have on this earth spreading hate in the name of God. I have two sinful choices:

1) Continue to live happily and hate-free, as a dancer

2) Join you and your judgemental Christian cult in spreading hate throughout the world

Hmmm... wonder which one I should choose???

Lilith
03-01-2004, 07:53 PM
I don't think Jesus was getting drunk with the drunkards

1 John, Chapter 2


I believe he was preaching and teaching them, trying to convert them. And his disciples did the same thing.

Actually, his strongest distaste was reserved for the pompous, holier-than-thou Pharisees. Not that this fact is ironic, or anything.



In addition to that, he commanded his believers to spread the gospel too.

Ooooh, really? So all I have to do is be exactly like you and I too can tell people how much better I am and how they are scum for not being exactly like me? Where do I sign up?

Frankly, if you are an example of what Jesus can do then I shall pass the "opportunity".


If you have, you can understand that by me being here pointing out sin is something He would want me to do

First remove the beam from your own eye.


If you have, you can understand that by me being here pointing out sin is something He would want me to do....

So everyone's assumption that we are here to convict you of sin is simply not true.

I'm straight out convicting your immorality and most of you will go straight to hell...

I don't think even you know why you are here.


You mentioned Christians treated you like crap? Why? Because they didn't agree with your lifestyle?

She states that she was a child, so I'd love to know by which scripture a Christian would justify treating a child like crap for their lifestyle. Hey,. I'll settle for which scripture justifies treating anyone like crap, child or no, regardless of their lifestyle.


And I didn't name anyone specifically who is going to hell. But the scriptures are full of descriptions of people who seem to fit the descriptions of many on here.


Sure. Pharisees, prideful harlots and the like are mentioned in scripture.

Isis
03-01-2004, 08:05 PM
I'm straight out convicting your immorality and most of you will go straight to hell when that day of judgment comes. And that, guys and girls, is simply the truth. :o



And just who gave U the right to convict anyone of anything :confused:

Gynger
03-01-2004, 08:07 PM
First of all, I was treated like crap PRIOR to being a dancer… not afterwards.. and, I do not claim to be a Christian, I claim to be spiritual. I understand your convictions and your desires to preach, however, this is simply not the place to do so. Stand on a corner or something, but not here. And, I do correct you in stating that you did say that everyone was going to hell. Again, what I do, as well as anyone else, is between God and that person. NOT between someone who is trying to save souls or preach to another person. GOD has the final decision and the person who is being judged. Fine for you to state what you believe (it is a free country, but again, this is not the place) I have no desire to get into a religious thread, again, I have no respect for any organized religion, and I will never set foot again in a church, you are chewing up space that could be used for other purposes. I do not judge anyone, however I refuse to stay silent when someone such as yourself comes onto this forum and starts preaching. You do not know us, nor we you, however you feel it necessary to "condemn" our lifestyles, or choice of profession- which I’d like to clarify is NOT being a whore or a prostitute.. It is an art and not everyone is good at it… and until you experience it (or perhaps you have) I wouldn’t judge until you’ve walked in my shoes or anyone elses (I should warn you though, that the heels are very high.. sometimes up to 8 inches!) I also think that anything could be deemed erotic.. I have not an ounce of respect for anyone who wishes to condemn anyone for their choices, because again, those are choices that only the person who made them knows the reasons as to why they were made. Only God makes the final call, not you or anyone else. Find your ministry elsewhere.. this is not the place. I think many of my fellow colleagues would agree with me.

AMERICAN
03-01-2004, 08:09 PM
Polecat,


American: I am personally sick and tired of walking down the street, going to Wal-Mart, while most every man who sees me turns around and checks out my ass or breasts (and I'm not dressed provocatively at all!) or turns to see what pretty woman is in the car when I drive by. I'm tired of being treated by men in this way.


The question is, why exactly are you tired of being "treated" this way?

I think I have explained this in another post, but basically, I was not placed on this earth for male sexual pleasure and I don’t care much for being treated that way. My outward appearance is not what makes me ME (which I realize most on here don’t care too much for ME;)!) But anyway......if a woman meets society’s standard of beautiful, she is considered more valuable and a trophy, which is absolutely and totally ridiculous. Whether you want to admit it or not, women in this country are obsessed about their appearance. And most of the time those obsessed with their appearance also are obsessed with money and social status.




I say this as men receive the same if they are exceptional. Body builders, "hunkish" men that compete and whatnot are similarly gawked at by women when going to the gym, at the grocery store- even if wearing non-provocative clothing. You don't ever hear men complaining though as it's societally accepted. I read it that you are still living a mindset created by men to force you to feel guilty or "cheap" about your sexuality. This mindset was conditioned into you since the self-awareness of your sexuality is deemed "dirty" or "improper"...

The bodybuilders and hunkish men who get their rocks off from their appearance (similar to the women on here), of course, aren’t the ones complaining. Again, do you hear the girls on here complaining about their beauty? I sure haven’t. They’re living it up for the attention they get....and for another reason that I didn’t realize until coming here....for the love of money.

But a lot of men outside of the hunkish, bodybuilder image do have problems with self-esteem. And men’s self-esteems are going to be affected even moreso in the coming years with all the messages currently being received about weight loss, how to achieve the perfect muscular tanned body, how to grow a full head of hair, how to have a hard and huge penis, how to please your woman so you don’t loose her to the young stud out to get her.

The average man (even moreso than the average woman) does not like his woman talking about other men’s bodies. From my experiences, men don’t like to share their women any more than women like to share their men. Men are just better at not admitting it and making it look like something else.....showing they have this side to them is a sign of weakness. Though not all male strip clubs are like this, but at least when male strippers come to town here....it’s usually ladies only. The men aren’t even allowed in the same place! What’s that telling you? Male strip clubs will never be popular or nationwide because men simply won’t put up with it....and rightly so. It’s just time for women not to put up with it either.




In a sea of Honda's, Toyota's and SUV's, a Ferrari in the mix is stared at and people look. It's a natural reaction to something unusual, dare-say sexy and provocative. Things that get our attention have a natural inclination to GET that attention. To inhibit such is a travesty as we are denying our inner instincts. Men have been conditioned to live freely this way for centuries- we can look at the attractive woman and be pleased by her eloquent form, style and beauty. Women have been conditioned to be uptight, inhibited and conservative. Many cultures even force the wearing of burkas or exposing of no flesh, but the reverse isn't true for men since women aren't tolerated to be "harlots" and look at the toned garden worker. Stronger discipline is placed on women for their natural urges, and to ease such discipline for men- it's either culturally accepted they gawk and look openly, or women are chided/inhibited from exposing flesh to remove the temptation.

You say to inhibit such an urge is a travesty? What in the world are you talking about? Maybe your mother or father should have been given the freedom to beat the crap out of you all the times they had that ‘urge.’

Yes, of course, the sexual urge is necessary for procreation (as is anger for survival), but with as with any human urge, there comes a lot of responsibility and necessity to learn self-control (hopefully in the early years of life). Sex is THE greatest emotional and spiritual bond that exists between a man and a woman, and to pervert that in any way by including a third human being is simply a disgrace.

Yes, some men have been conditioned to live freely for centuries. But not in all communities. And you think that just because some cultures find it ‘socially-acceptable’ for a man to be a whore and a slut, that it’s time for the female to rise up and be his equal? That is just preposterous. I think the better approach would be to require ‘stronger discipline’ (as you label it) on both men and women....and not the opposite scenario as you propose.




American: We don't like the double standard in this country anymore than any of you women on here. We just think that possibly women are going about 'improving' the double standard in this country in the wrong way. Women are against women when we actually give men what they want.....more visuals, multiple partners, and free passes to the strip club.


Nobody likes the double-standard once you see where it's roots are derived from. It's unprogressive and single-sided.

If you flip the tables and think for a moment from the alternate perspective- it's currently men against men, and we give women what WE want. We are also completely societally uninhibited sexually and allowed to react to our urges.. and we can damn well wear whatever we please anywhere and have NO pathos or controlling mind games about the reaction or how we should feel from outside visual attention.

Read that last paragraph as many times as needed before it sinks in. THAT is the model that is needed for women to become true equals- to rise to that level.

Do you really believe a young, gorgeous, muscular, tall, fit and tanned man WITH hair walks along the average beach (or neighborhood pool) wearing a sexy black Speedo that shows off his huge package won’t raise a few eyebrows? Yes, I think it most definitely would. Usually I see the fat, hairy, old bald men on the beach wearing the Speedos!! I guess I’m not going to the right beaches! Anyway....this is just an opinion, but I think if the model of man you describe were to walk along the average family beach or swim in the average family neighborhood pool, men would absolutely throw a fit. :) I don’t think we see this very often because, one, it is NOT socially-acceptable for men to wear next to nothing (as you say) and, two, because the majority of men won’t lower themselves to a sexual object standard.




People wonder why (predominantly white) men control most of the power and wealth in the world, it's because it's a bred and conditioned instinct of competition from birth on (men vs men). You can choose to believe it's due to the shape of the organ found in their pants, skin color, race or whathaveyou.. I'll continue to associate with those that know better, and prove it wrong all the time.

What you have described is most definitely a bred and conditioned behavior...but it’s not instinct and not there from birth (as you also say). It’s not both. Men seeking control, wealth, and power through competition is learned behavior. Society teaches men to be this way. Society also teaches men to treat women like sex objects! Men aren’t born that way either.

On another note, take the black man for instance. It seems he is bred and conditioned to be much more sexually aggressive than any white male. Go figure! Maybe all of us women need to give up our white man and go for the black man! Seems like many are. And that’s because women are getting all of these images from the entertainment industry that the black man is everything they want if they are looking for sex and attention. (By the way, I don’t have a problem with bi-racial relationships, but I do have a problem with the kind of black male that is portrayed in the entertainment industry these days.)




American: And yes, I personally feel that when a woman dresses a certain way out in public, she is most definitely trying to get my "man's" attention. I think this is malicious, deceitful, and very disrespectful to me as a fellow woman. (I know that she is like this because I enjoyed 'stealing' away that attention from other women in years past, unfortunately.)


Yeah, and? Some big, buffed cutey patootie beef-cakes walks by in a muscle-shirt and my girlfriend checks him out. So what? Being self-actualized sexually allows retention emphasis on intellect, character, personality, power, attitude and all that's truly important in relationships. While women that subscribe to your model are perpetually worried about getting saggy, putting on weight, or old/wrinkly, men continue to get beer-bellies, balding and stop going to the gym. How fair to you as a woman is the model you're trying to propensify?

So, you would rather create a more controlling, Muslim-style society where women are required to "bundle-up", expose no flesh and all for the sake of allowing men a complete lack of discipline? Unless what you are saying is we become a male and female burka-wearing society, what you are proposing is the result of the biggest male mind-fuck ever, and being handily spoon fed to your readily receiving mouth. Yeah! Women should cover themselves up and be ashamed of their form and sexuality. Why not? More virgin wives! Yay!

It seems to me that the women that you ‘propensify’ spend quite a bit of money on plastic surgery on all kinds of body parts, making their bodies into something that’s not even them. I sure feel sad for these women when the model for beautiful changes to something they are not. I guess just as long as they earn the money from stripping, they can go get that one more plastic surgery to yet again live up to society’s standards.

You say more virgin wives....yay!!! So would you really like to have married a virgin? Seems on one hand you appreciate the virginity of a woman. Maybe you just don’t want to hold yourself to that standard. That seems to be the problem with the majority of the men throughout the years. They want to hold a standard to women that they aren’t willing to do themselves. Maybe it’s time for men to take some self-control classes? Especially, since you seem to agree that a virgin is actually something positive.




American: But what many of you don't seem to see is that men are still in control in this country when it comes to sexuality.


Absolutely. What a man cannot control, he lays into rhetorical bondage. It's been that way for centuries- physically and mentally.


American: They are the ones controlling each one of you in the strip club. They are definitely controlling women when they convince us (their SO) to go to the strip club with them. It is 'every' man's fantasy to see women on women, to have their women go to the strip club with them. So how do you not see that we as women, who go to the strip club with our men, aren't actually giving up even more of our control and power?


You're interpretting a woman's unshackling of such bondage (and capitalizing on it!) the way men/old-fashioned values have conditioned you to believe.

And for the men taking women to stripclubs as a controlling factor- this is a farce since a woman seeing empowerment through sexuality is going to pick this up on her first visit. Men with these kinds of pretenses usually don't return as this plan backfires on them if the woman they are with has any sense or rationality. Instead, the frequenting couples that attend stripclubs are either: a) a woman too far gone to climb out of her shell and will forever be controlled, or b) a healthy acceptance by her mate that she should be empowered and respect/admire her sexuality and recognize the control it can afford her.

There is also a reason why there are ATM's and credit-card stations at every stripclub. The actualized strippers know the name of the game IS control, but in a reversed setting. Their job is to squeek every last buck from their customer's wallet, AND gain enough control for the patron to make trips to the ATM and credit-card machines, thus spending substantially more than they sought out to. Chris Rock jokes about how ATM transactions at 3am are never a good thing. Emotionally healthy males laugh at this and find it a refreshing trend to see women so empowered.

I think BW might have asked this question, but it seems that men are okay with sharing their woman with another woman.....but they wouldn’t be up to sharing their woman with another man? Do you see this as being the case in your industry? I realize that perhaps many men in the sex industry don’t mind sharing their women, but at least from the things I have experienced outside of the sex industry, men don’t want to share their women with men....just women. Another woman is not much of a threat to a man. A man who gets his woman to go to a strip club does not respect/admire her (in my opinion). It just a way to get more of his out-of-control, sexual tendencies satisfied.

Yes, the strippers have quite a bit of control over a man’s money and are learning to be extremely manipulative in earning a buck.....but in the end the stripper loses because she loses in society, loses her integrity and self-worth, and loses in the mind of the men who have watched her as soon as he walks out of the club.




I think each one of you on here should somehow, with the money you make from stripping, start a chain of restaurants where gorgeous men serve us women in those sexy bikini underwear. I think some of you should gather up your money and start a nationwide chain of male strip joints.....


Best idea you've set forth this whole thread. But with the strong societal conditioning of how "improper" a woman would be spending $$ on this, you can see how unsucessful such ventures have become. You want to see men in a thong, you're obviously a slut, harlet, tramp or whore.

As I said previously, this will never happen because men have more sense than to allow this to happen. Men know that it’s not okay to exploit sexuality, and actually are jealous (rightly so) when their women go to strip clubs (at least in the world separate from the sex industry). Like I said, it seems that many male strip clubs won’t even allow men to come in. Men are just very industrious on ways to get women to do what they want them to do.....they call us jealous, insecure, and threaten to find another woman (this has not happened to me, by the way, though I’ve seen it happen). Some women are just clueless as to men’s motives.



And by women being willing to have sex with women these days and by becoming visually stimulated by women's body and by pulling up our blouses at Mardi Gras.....aren't we only giving men more power and pleasure? Where is our pleasure, girls? In giving them pleasure?!!


Staunch heterosexual women that are also sexually liberated don't touch other women, but do enjoy the Mardi-Gras and sexual debauchery as you stated. The difference is- they are emotionally healthy enough to do what feels good and enjoyable to them, and not as a conditioned effort to please surrounding men. It rooted from health, not pathos.

The problem is- everyone applies a wide brush when painting women in all facets. I can totally relate to the perception as there are a great deal of women working stripclubs that are in deep trouble. In the 'city- there are a great number of women in abusive/pimp-style relationships, have past abuse issues from childhood that negate their self-worth leading to harsh rejection of outside help, narcotic-addicted and controlled, and rarely see much of their own income. Their condition is servantile/controlled and often perform sex-services to strange men in seedy clubs, and hand over proceeds to their pimp-boyfriends and drug dealers. Their actions in the clubs is far, far from an empowered standpoint and have unfortunately become a stereotype for the industry. Luckily, this portion is in decline as more and more intelligent, strong-willed and intellectual women enter the arena. There will always be men seeking the former, but the latter are starting to outrank and overpower them, and patrons formerly convinced of the stereotype are finding their way into clubs to be quite surprised. This is why it's important to recognize the women working to achieve this, and grant them dignity they deserve.


The majority of women who ‘touch’ women and act the way they do at Mardi Gras is to get male attention, the attention from the man they’re with, the attention from the men they flash. This is not sexual liberation. You would think that men would finally start pulling down their pants at Mardi Gras and start showing women what they have, since it’s such an openly-sexual environment. Like I said, the average man would never do this.....as he would never stoop to that level and expose his vulnerabilities in that way.

One thing I have learned on this thread that I didn’t really think much about before is that women get into this industry for the money, because of greed, they want to take shortcuts in life, they want a free ride in life. These women most definitely thinks it’s something to flaunt that they have paid off their houses, their cars, their college education, their children’s education, bought jet skis, etc., etc., (as one woman wrote to me). They seem to place more value on material things (superficial things) than anything spiritual in nature.

Isis
03-01-2004, 08:21 PM
One thing I have learned on this thread that I didn’t really think much about before is that women get into this industry for the money, because of greed, they want to take shortcuts in life, they want a free ride in life. These women most definitely thinks it’s something to flaunt that they have paid off their houses, their cars, their college education, their children’s education, bought jet skis, etc., etc., (as one woman wrote to me). They seem to place more value on material things (superficial things) than anything spiritual in nature.


Explain how doing a legal job to earn the money for a secure future is getting a free ride? I work 40-60 hours a week 8 months a year. how many hours a week do you work American :eyebrow: ?

How can you sit there and judge someones spiritual nature on their finacial security level ?

Have you ever though that a dancer might be spiritual as well as finiacialy secure ?

Why do you think you have the right to judge peoples souls ?

Why do you hate so much of the world ?

Lena
03-01-2004, 08:24 PM
American, to borrow from your religion... FEAR IS FROM THE DEVIL!!! Perfect love casteth out all fear.

Lena (devoted follower of the Goddesses Lillith and Freyja)

AMERICAN
03-01-2004, 08:25 PM
I don't think Jesus was getting drunk with the drunkards

1 John, Chapter 2


I believe he was preaching and teaching them, trying to convert them. And his disciples did the same thing.

Actually, his strongest distaste was reserved for the pompous, holier-than-thou Pharisees. Not that this fact is ironic, or anything.



In addition to that, he commanded his believers to spread the gospel too.

Ooooh, really? So all I have to do is be exactly like you and I too can tell people how much better I am and how they are scum for not being exactly like me? Where do I sign up?

Frankly, if you are an example of what Jesus can do then I shall pass the "opportunity".


If you have, you can understand that by me being here pointing out sin is something He would want me to do

First remove the beam from your own eye.


If you have, you can understand that by me being here pointing out sin is something He would want me to do....

So everyone's assumption that we are here to convict you of sin is simply not true.

I'm straight out convicting your immorality and most of you will go straight to hell...

I don't think even you know why you are here.


You mentioned Christians treated you like crap? Why? Because they didn't agree with your lifestyle?

She states that she was a child, so I'd love to know by which scripture a Christian would justify treating a child like crap for their lifestyle. Hey,. I'll settle for which scripture justifies treating anyone like crap, child or no, regardless of their lifestyle.


And I didn't name anyone specifically who is going to hell. But the scriptures are full of descriptions of people who seem to fit the descriptions of many on here.


Sure. Pharisees, prideful harlots and the like are mentioned in scripture.



Jesus did not get drunk. Do you get drunk everytime you drink wine? I don't. Maybe it has more to do with your quantity? I don't think drinking wine is sinful. But getting drunk is.

And you want to call me a Pharisee? What would you call the Apostle Paul and John the Baptist, along with all of his other disciples? Pharisees? What's wrong with that picture? If you want to get into a scripture debate, maybe that would be good for some on here. I can give you loads of scripture that came directly from the Apostle Paul that is very convicting to the sexual immoral. And I like how you threw that in there...about the prideful harlot. Harlot is a harlot, whether she is prideful or not. And a harlot who is still living as a harlot is still living deliberately with a sin that leads to death in her life.


And I asked her the question to get more information. I will be the first to admit that the church is in serious trouble today. Hopefully, the Passion of the Christ will turn many Christians back towards the faith, as well as bring unbelievers to Christ. Many Christians are not living according to God's Word, and it seems, at least to me, that Christians are capable of falling away from God. And the Christians you have described may be the fallen ones, who still remain in church for appearance sake. With all the problems in the church today, it's no wonder that children being brought up in the church and people outside of the faith have such a poor view of Christianity. That's still no reason not to study and read the Bible yourself. Personally, I wouldn't want to take that chance, which is one of the reasons I have made some drastic changes in my life over the past year and have actually studied the Bible for the first time in my life.

AMERICAN
03-01-2004, 08:28 PM
American, to borrow from your religion... FEAR IS FROM THE DEVIL!!! Perfect love casteth out all fear.

Lena (devoted follower of the Goddesses Lillith and Freyja)




Maybe you are projecting your own fear onto what you think I'm feeling. Just because I see the way that some on here are living as sinful, that doesn't make me fearful. Not sure how you can make that deduction.

But you are right, fear is from Satan.

Gynger
03-01-2004, 08:33 PM
/quote/ "Yes, the strippers have quite a bit of control over a man’s money and are learning to be extremely manipulative in earning a buck.....but in the end the stripper loses because she loses in society, loses her integrity and self-worth, and loses in the mind of the men who have watched her as soon as he walks out of the club"'

HOW WOULD YOU KNOW ANYWAYS???? You have no clue as to whether we lose our integrity or self worth...

You make a very ballsy statement there… and the one about men not acting out and then to drag in racial issues and the materialistic comment. I know of just the opposite actually, and quite honestly, it seems you know NOTHING about how the real world operates. It is not a male dominating society anymore. You have no respect from me whatsoever. My suggestion: Buy a freaking g-string, and get some heels, see how far you get. I have more self worth and integrity than some of your fellow church goers.. at least I treat others with respect and I can sleep at night. When I look in the mirror, I see a beautiful woman who gets paid (and paid well) for her time, who comes home after a night of work to a loving family. I work freaking hard for my money and its not just for materialistic items! Perhaps you should get a reality check.. however I am finished posting to your nonsense thread.. you are the prime scum of religion that I have despised since I was a child. You know nothing about what you speak of, but only muse in making statements about things you know nothing about claiming to be "holier than thou". You need to be knocked down a peg.