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Adina
04-02-2004, 07:31 PM
Stiletto has three locations:

Manhattan, New York
Nanuet, New York

AND

Carlstadt, New Jersey

Lexi
04-02-2004, 07:33 PM
Yes Adina you are right. I forgot about the other one. I work in the one in nanuet, and the one in carlstadt is really close to my home. Soooo, I just visit there as a "guest" LOL

Thanks for clearing that up! :D

Diva
04-03-2004, 01:21 AM
scores was great from my visit friday night so I'll work there after the holidays.......... my report is at "So here's the scope on scores west" happy easter all.
xo xo Diva

Melonie
04-03-2004, 06:47 AM
The NJ one was the one I was referring to. I've heard they do really well when something is going on at the Meadowlands, but too much contact (and commute) for me. Yep, it's nude lapdances at the NJ club.

I was also referring to the Stiletto in Carlstadt NJ. Nude club, dancers rate maybe 7-9. Private dance room is full grind but customer no touch, individual private VIP rooms are 2 way contact at levels similar to GGR. Earnings potential can be excellent if you work a shift corresponding to a major Meadowlands sports event, otherwise earnings potential is "fair".

Stiletto in Nanuet, NY works out more or less the same as the one in Carlstadt NJ. However, there are fewer 'high rollers' since there is no Meadowlands nearby. There is also a large core of repeat local customers to deal with, who share "mileage" information about various dancers among themselves, which leads to high mileage demands in the private rooms.

Stiletto @ Club 44 in Manhattan is "disappointing" by Manhattan earnings potential standards.

The_Kid
04-03-2004, 08:59 AM
O.K. ladies-you've convinced me to give the N.J. Stiletto
another try.I last went there a few months ago; long
after the GGR merger and it WAS very disappointing
and the dancers WERE 4's, 5's and 6's- maybe a 7 at
best. Maybe theyr've hired some new girls. I'll check it out & post a "consumer report".
Diva- $11,000?????? You admit that was an atypical
aberration- don't you. That's TWICE as much as the
biggest of big nights any Man. dancer has ever bragged about.
One last time- The earnings POTENTIAL in Manhattan is
MUCH higher than N.J. The biggest GGR night I've ever
heard of was $4000 and that was TWICE as much as the next biggest.Dancers at GGR or DD's WORK HARD
just to crack a grand.BUT- for the right dancer- she can
consistently average $1000+ NET in N.J.

Deliela
05-12-2004, 09:06 PM
Girls, stay away from VIP club in NYC. I have been working there and almost all the girls gives BJ's and sex. Some girls give up to 4-5 BJ's to different guys a night--it adds up to mininum 2K for them. I am going to go to Penthouse where the "extras" aren't so rampant. It's hard for me to make money now B/C the champagne hostess hooks up the $$$guys with the naughty girls, so the other dancers don't have a chance to make $$ unless an unknown spender comes in--and that's what I look for obviously. The guys even tell me "Oh, I am sending my client upstairs to have fun and I know you don't do that" so I get stuck with nothing. >:(

It's very frustrating and difficult to compete with these girls. there are about 10 girls who will do whatever all week long. they bank serious $$$ but at what expense--self respect, dignity, their soul?

What a bunch of COCK SUCKERS!!!................ I can't believe my eyes and what's become of VIP CLUB. I used to work here back in 1997, 1998 and early part of 1999, I left NY when Julianni was closing down all the stips clubs in NYC, the only clubs that didn't get close was Flash Dancers but it was not upscale for my image so I left. Now I return and Vip is not what it used to be, it was a truely clean club back then and the girls made their money clean and the bad apples were fired.......... period, now it's a straight-up whore house and the managers and owners knows and the approve of this however it's just a matter of time before they get shut down for good. This club is completely over over over. Guys come to the club and goes straight to the rooms and have full contact, I'm talking deep penetration, this club gives it all including anal...... This club and some in Florida certainly please their clients in every way. The champagne host rules all. It's also a big shake down $$$$ you have to pay everyone even if they didn't help you and you can't tip funny money even if that's all you made. These girls not only fuck the customers but they also have to suck & fuck the managers and bouncers as well. I'm thinking maybe these girls don't have a green card and can't work anywhere else so they put up with this. I am shocked completely blown away. I don't even think they have any american girls working there................ I will check out the other clubs.

precise
05-13-2004, 12:22 AM
Deliela,
You're just as bitter and angry and possibly lazy just like the person whoever started this topic and now enjoys(?) her life in Penthouse.
I work in VIP.
Shakedown part and champaingne hosts practices are correct, however it's enrages me that people like you give VIP a bad name.
Have you ever spoke to any Brazilian,Columbian, Argentinian girl and learn that more than half of them are married to an Americans and their Green Cards are just fine?
Did you ever registered in your pea brain that club has many all American girls like Kelly, Reese,Rosie, Nikky, Adrian, Haley(Canadian),Chase,Tori, Jamie,etc...Rings the bell? What wrong with you to accuse all the dances of being "a Sara's girl"?
If she cuts you off and replaces you with somebody else to CR, TRY HARDER!
I did. It was almost impossible. Eventually i succeded.
I got lots of regulars now who may be not up for the CR every time they see me but i'm getting bussiness by staying on the floor and entertaining them and clients they bring me and my friends.
You are just discoreged and not even trying but happy to give everybody who make a dollar more than you A BAD NAME. How predictable...

Deliela
05-13-2004, 08:26 AM
I work in VIP.
Shakedown part and champaingne hosts practices are correct, however it's enrages me that people like you give VIP a bad name.
What wrong with you to accuse all the dances of being "a Sara's girl"?
If she cuts you off and replaces you with somebody else to CR, TRY HARDER!
I did. It was almost impossible. Eventually i succeded.
I got lots of regulars now who may be not up for the CR every time they see me but i'm getting bussiness by staying on the floor and entertaining them and clients they bring me and my friends.

Precise no one is accusing all the dancers, it clearly states that the clean dancers get cuts off......... your words........ and for the most part there isn't enough guys on the floor to go home satisfy after all the fees........if you're happy working in a whore house then fine........ you probably wouldn't make it anywhere else and this is where you're comfortable so enjoy it, if someone told me this I wouldn't have believe it because it never was this way back then and now is a different story..... ::)

The_Kid
05-13-2004, 01:24 PM
Are you ladies serious ?? Are you really shocked, SHOCKED !!! that sexual activity is actually taking place
at VIP ? It's been notorious as a "brothel" for well over
a year AND what happens there also goes on at Scores
& PEC; not as often ; maybe a little more discretely
but it happens.

curvygirl
05-13-2004, 01:37 PM
I tried to get a job at VIP back in 2001-2002, and do you know what the manager - I believe his name was Chris - said to me ??? If you lose 7 pounds you can come back!! Let me tell you something - I'm 5'3, 108 pounds, 34C, size 2. I am attractive, and I'm not being cocky by saying that whatsoever. He wouldn't let me try out, he just asked me to get undressed. I looked at the other girls in the dressing room, and I couldn't believe it - there was one girl that had such bad acne that no amount of makeup would cover it. There was a chunky girl and another girl that just was by no means, attractive.

I can believe it that the VIP has turned into a brothel. They turn away attractive women without even a tryout. I bet you need a "code word" for blowjob to get a job in the place!!!

I'm done venting now - I feel better.

Brittany
05-13-2004, 02:38 PM
In my experience, Chris was always pretty nice. He was there in the John Vargo days. He was tough about his hiring practices though. When he was manager there, I never heard of any really funny business going on in the VIP rooms, or saw any of it. Not saying that the club was perfect, no club ever is, just saying that it was a lot better of a place to work then. All of the things that you are reading about here started happening after he and John Vargo left. But John Vargo was the one who destroyed all of the records and left girls in the cold when it came to paying them cash for the funny money they had earned. Well...he and the accountant guy...I can't remember his name, it's been so long ago. I remember hearing the accountant tell some of the regular girls there that they would have to wait to get checks written to them for their funny money. But I guess the reason why I always got mine cashed was that I had been travelling there from Texas (for years since they came to that club). And since they knew I wasn't going to be there next week or next month even maybe....they always wrote me the checks for my funny money with relatively little hassle. I also never had that much compared to the other girls, because I always encouraged the guys at the tables and in VIP to give me cash instead, and took funny money from them as a last resort...this has been my "dance policy" for years...lol

lalalatina
05-13-2004, 11:19 PM
I work at priviledge and it's starting to become an extras place. I mean all the girls who are making money are the ones going down or getting fucked. I'm going to PEC tomorrow.

The_Kid
05-14-2004, 10:38 AM
Lalalatina- Really ?! I'd never heard that about Privelege
before.Quite the contrary, it was always known to be
NO MILEAGE, not LOW mileage, NO mileage.
BTW- a few girls at PEC get just as down & dirty as
anywhere else.

precise
05-14-2004, 12:16 PM
...Ok, Deliela, i was right about your predictability of bad-mouthing fellow dancers...
Since i've learned that have an intelligent argument with you is quite pointless, it will be my last reply to you.
But before we say good bye to each other, here's a little feedback adout me.
You suggest i "probably woud not make it anywhere" and i'm "happy to work in a "whore house". Based on a nature of this business your appearance is 90% of success. I've modeled for 7 years and still do it when available and bugdet is right. In fact, would YOU be ever capable to work 4-5 night s on a raw modeling from 9am till 4 pm and work as a stripper from 6 pm till 4 am sometimes? You do the math when i sleep. Management in VIP can't fugure it out how i do it sometimes and still look great.
Before i went to VIP,( my third choice) i auditioned for Scores and PEC. BOTH places took me immediatly and asked to dance the same night. I never started at Scores since i don't believe in paying $300 fee a night, economy is not the same and would take me years to establish a network of regulars to come up with that money. I'm not waiting for that.
Next day i got hired at PEC and Gary Goldman (who, as we all know, is gone by now) established that i'll do spectacular , but have to work at least 5 times a week. I took a challenge and did for a few weeks, bending in half between my modeling assignments , personal training teaching and ill mother. The money slowly start pouring in and i sincerely enjoyed the beautiful place and dancing on shell-shaped stage. But the inside politics about who goes to a room and at what price and what cosistency as well as high voltage negative energy from quite a few dancers made me quit and audition in VIP. Shortly, after a boot camp in PEC, i started to bring in regulars to VIP. Management also liked the fact that i practically lived in place for a few months, working 6 nights a week, calling me "the hardest working girl in bussiness".
I previously
explained how difficult was to win the war with champaine room hosts(it's still occur sometimes), being cut off at the last minute when you are that close to "seal the deal" and take a guy to CR after a long warm-up with your dancing and time.
So, what do i like about VIP?
1.Somehow more flexible scedule( with a mandatory 3 days a week).
2. Most of the girls are much friendlier.
3. The house fee is $120, not $ 300 like Scores.
4. And despite of all negative stuff associated with VIP CR activities sometimes from a certain entertainers, i keep meeting really great , loyal (call them stable) regulars , including 3 very good clients from PEC.
Yes, it may be called a brothel but there's always tomorrow with an uknown
great regular. So,"you have to be in a joint " to begin with. And i don't have nightmares and regrets so far. You just have to focus and get really good with a whole package.
Speaking of which,...and i don't mean to finish this off negatively, you , Deliela,is yet to have. At least, psycologically. Look at the dancer who Has IT and think what are you missing? Don't rush to accuse her in something, but think what upset you so much and why you grew so jealious? What
does she have you don't? We both have
T and A, we both
have pussies, we both
know how to use a make-up and give a stimulating conversation or BS(depends on a case. We both don't blow or fuck customers, either. So, what gives you right to bad-mouth people ? You are a typical catty, misearable woman and probably have to
change an attitude a little and again, try harder. Now, goodbye, mon sheri.

harvard
05-14-2004, 12:32 PM
About Priviledge, Au contraire the Kid. I was there last week and all of the dances on the floor were very high mileage for New York, heavy grinding, girls putting your hands everywhere. I can't speak about what goes on in the back rooms, but certainly the floor was almost GGR level mileage - more like stiletto's nanuet.

Melonie
05-15-2004, 05:31 AM
Harvard, I'm not at all surprised to hear this about Privelege or the VIP club. After all, competition among Manhattan clubs is starting to get really intense as new clubs have opened, more dancers are working than ever before, yet nothing has really changed in regard to the total number of Manhattan club customers. If anything, customers are more reluctant in regards to spending habits than in the past. Except for the super-upscale crowd at Scores East and PEC, customers are undoubtedly driving a harder bargain these days.

The unfortunate thing here for VIP is that, unlike GGR or Stiletto, VIP is covered by the existing NYC anti-dance club ordinance and is clearly in serious violation. This obviously creates a very stressful situation for the dancers, having to look over their shoulder all the time. But this also explains why the back room action may be pretty extreme, since the penalty for being busted violating the NYC ordinance and the penalty for being busted for prostitution are actually about the same !

If/when VIP is busted, it will just add fuel to the NYC Chelsea Councilwoman's anti-dance club crusade and attempts to enact and vigorously enforce an even more restrictive anti-dance club ordinance. And until VIP is busted, this will tend to draw non-super upscale customers away from other second tier clubs making it harder for girls working at Hustler, Scores West, Privelege etc. to earn as much as they used to without increasing "mileage" themselves.

ladysummer
05-15-2004, 01:07 PM
I just really hate the fact that a few "whores" masquerading as "dancers" tend to ruin it for everyone else!!!??? The truth is most clubs do have dancers providing "extras" but most of those incidents are just swept under the carpet. :-[

Tigerlilly
05-15-2004, 01:49 PM
Has NYC changed that much ???

I danced a few shifts here and there in Manhattan clubs in 98/99 and VIP was plenty clean back then it seemed to me :-\

There is ALWAYS a handful of dancers who push the envelope in any club. However, in most upscale clubs that means seeing customers outside the club , not in club extras. How prevelant are high mileage dances there right now ?

Is it a few dancers or most of them :o

Rath
05-15-2004, 02:52 PM
1. My experience at Privilege has been that table dances on the main floor are pretty high-mileage for a NYC gown club -- but VIPs offer NO more mileage than you get out on the floor. Given the lay-out of the Champagne Room there (no privacy at all), I don't see how it could be any different.

2. Melonie, you're usually so right about legal stuff that I hate to say that this time you're a little bit wrong. The NYC anti-strip club ordinance is just a zoning law. Being out of compliance with it is no big deal. You can get closed down, but it's not a crime or anything. There's not even any moral opprobrium attached. It just means that an otherwise legel business is at the wrong location. OTOH, prostitution laws are criminal. A dancer can get busted for prostitution. She can't get busted for working at an improperly-zoned business.

Rath
05-15-2004, 03:02 PM
But to be completely accurate, I also ought to say that, at least in New York City, this thing you often hear here, that strippers who give serious extras are "endangering" their co-workers, is completely false. First, I've never ever heard of any stripper working in a mainstream club here being arrested for giving extras. (Only girls in underground-type places.) Second, even in the underground-type places, they have only arrested the girls who are caught solicting extras. Which makes sense. Since strip clubs "officially" aren't brothels, there's no probable cause to arrest anybody who isn't found actually offering illegal sexual services. So in terms of possible criminal liability, the "extras" girls only endanger themselves. The only way "extras" girls endanger "non-extras" girls is by endangering their pocketbooks, by outcompeteing them in giving the customers more of what they want.

Diva
05-15-2004, 03:20 PM
Has NYC changed that much ???
There is ALWAYS a handful of dancers who push the envelope in any club. However, in most upscale clubs that means seeing customers outside the club , not in club extras.



I just really hate the fact that a few "whores" masquerading as "dancers" tend to ruin it for everyone else!!!??? The truth is most clubs do have dancers providing "extras" but most of those incidents are just swept under the carpet. :-[



In my experience, Chris was always pretty nice. He was there in the John Vargo days. He was tough about his hiring practices though. When he was manager there, I never heard of any really funny business going on in the VIP rooms, or saw any of it. Not saying that the club was perfect, no club ever is, just saying that it was a lot better of a place to work then. All of the things that you are reading about here started happening after he and John Vargo left. But John Vargo was the one who destroyed all of the records and left girls in the cold when it came to paying them cash for the funny money they had earned.

Well I couldn't have said it better but competition between the clubs are stiff!..... things are really starting to heat up. By the way Chris Murray was a fare manager and didn't put up with much, he cleaned out the whores when it comes to his attention, I heard he's now the manager at Hustler and that Gold Club is close down.........????............ Well fellow dancers, stay strong and don't let anyone steal your joy! People will only go as far as you let them..........

Melonie
05-16-2004, 04:25 AM
Melonie, you're usually so right about legal stuff that I hate to say that this time you're a little bit wrong. The NYC anti-strip club ordinance is just a zoning law. Being out of compliance with it is no big deal. You can get closed down, but it's not a crime or anything. There's not even any moral opprobrium attached. It just means that an otherwise legel business is at the wrong location. OTOH, prostitution laws are criminal. A dancer can get busted for prostitution. She can't get busted for working at an improperly-zoned business.

It's true that the adult business zoning provisions are a large part of the law affecting strip clubs in NYC. But there are also other provisions, such as contact limitations between dancers and customers. In NYC it is illegal for a dancer/customer to touch a customer/dancer's crotch even though the area is covered by clothing, for example. These lewd conduct provisions can indeed result in dancers being directly charged with a misdemeanor offense. So what happens if a dancer/customer touches a customer/dancer's crotch which is unclothed ? This could result in the dancer being charged under state prostitution law ... also a misdemeanor offense, with the same legal penalties as a lewd conduct charge under the NYC ordinance lewd conduct provisions.

You are correct, though, that any laws are only as applicable as enforcement makes them be. And enforcement comes from two sources really. The first is the clubs themselves. Obviously Scores East and PEC wish to maintain their reputations as super-upscale clubs, and these clubs also have zero financial problems, so I am absolutely sure that club management is extremely strict about making sure that dancers don't do anything which would conspicuously violate state and local law. The second half of law enforcement comes from the police, and I'm also sure that Scores East and PEC would be the last 2 clubs in NYC which would draw police attention, for a number of reasons stemming from the upscale clientele being politically connected to the police probably receiving "widows and orphans fund" donations from club management.

However, when you leave the super-upscale clubs and start talking about the second tier clubs, new issues begin to arise. Lots of these clubs are struggling from a financial standpoint, making management's commitment to enforcement rather questionable (if a dancer manages to sell more private dances/champagne room trips via high contact/extras, the clubs also profit from the sale). Some of these clubs are also at odds with their NYC neighborhoods, fueling calls by the Chelsea Councilwoman at least for increased police enforcement. This was the environment I was commenting about, because nobody is sure how things will turn out. However, the district of Chelsea does not cover all of Manhattan (let alone all of NYC), but only the west side area which is home to Hustler, Scores West, Legz Diamonds, and several other clubs near the West Side Highway. It could indeed come to pass that, because of the Councilwoman's vocal opposition to strip clubs in her district, that "selective law enforcement" might result which affects some clubs much more than other clubs even though the clubs may only be located a few blocks apart !

Some second tier clubowners are even covering their own butts in anticipation of future problems by including a provision in their dancer's employment applications which basically says "as a dancer, I am aware that certain types of contact between dancers and customers is illegal. If I am arrested I absolve the club of any responsibility in this regard".

Rath
05-16-2004, 02:07 PM
Melonie, thanks again.

(I, for one, will be very surprised if we ever see arrests in New York for giving technically illegal hands-off grinding lapdances in mainstream clubs. But you're right that there are no guarantees.)

Diva
05-21-2004, 11:54 PM
What a bunch of COCK SUCKERS!!!................
ha! ha! ha!... man oh! mannnnnnnnnn ;D I finally took the time to read it all........ :o
Peace Diva

ex-stripper75
05-27-2004, 04:17 PM
"Have you ever spoke to any Brazilian,Columbian, Argentinian girl and learn that more than half of them are married to an Americans and their Green Cards are just fine?"


I gotta agree w/this girlie... VIP wouldnt hire me cause I didnt have my greencard, not many places will hire a foreigner without some kind of working authorization in NYC.

Lane
05-29-2004, 10:19 AM
I heard a rumor that at least two dancers were given citations at VIP last week for breaking the distance ordinance. In NYC, you are required to keep a six inch distance from the customers groin etc. Could this possibly be true?

Melonie
05-29-2004, 03:12 PM
I heard a rumor that at least two dancers were given citations at VIP last week for breaking the distance ordinance. In NYC, you are required to keep a six inch distance from the customers groin etc. Could this possibly be true?


I don't believe that there is a specific distance referred to in the NYC law, but zero distance i.e. any part of a dancer's body coming in contact with the customer's genital area (even with clothing in between) is definitely in violation of the ordinance. Of course, up until your posting, I'd never heard of this ordinance actually being enforced. It usually takes "lips around dick" or worse to get busted in NYC (and the charge will be prostitution and not breaking the ordinance), and even then somebody has to rat you out !

It's no secret, though, that the new NYC councilwoman from the Chelsea District ( I'm not sure what district the VIP club is actually in) has been calling for increased police presence in the Manhattan clubs as part of her neo-anti-dance club crusade in conjunction with certain Manhattan neighborhood groups. Aieeeeee !!!! conservative politics in NYC !!!! At least mayor Juliani had a reason for starting his crusade - he wanted to clean up Times Square so that Disney and Warner Bro's would invest millions there and family tourist business would take off like a rocket. But this councilwoman from Chelsea is stumping for federal money for an expanded Javits Convention Center, and I suspect that clamping down on West Side clubs despite the fact that this is one of the very few areas zoned for adult businesses is part of her pitch. This could be her doing !

Has anybody else heard anything about this bust or others like it ? If this actually happened it is an extremely bad precedent !

Diva
05-29-2004, 03:50 PM
who did you hear this rumor from? I doubt it......... I still talk to a friends who still works there who would have told me but she did say a few girls got fired in regards to drugs. I won't say names but I knew those girls were junkies but they rule the club making up to $4000 per night with the madam sara doing what you've read in previous post. I was in the room once with them and witness this peticular blond feeding the customer K which I thought was coke at the time, plus she would walk around with powder on nose and even came to me to give me a baby wipe and I told her I didn't need it because my guy was very happy with my entertainment. The real story is, there was a locker search and they found needles in her locker because she was shooting up K in her toes and this I'll believe and no shock if you hnew the girls. This is awfull for girls who share lockers........The owners & managers knows what goes on and who does drugs and who's dirty in rooms and i said this at previous meetings. This late clean-up was fear of close-down because undercovers are circulating the all clubs. Vip Bad Rap is widely spread by guys bragging and girls who's money was hurt by those whores and pimps and shake downs $$$. Guys are geting extras at other clubs now. I'm no longer at VIP but I'm in a super-upscale club here in manhattan and on tuesday this week a dancer was caught breaking the rules in the private room but they fired her. Now if that was a cop the club would have been closed and everyone out of a job. This goes on in every club but only when they're caught we know about it or if you see it first hand. I've worked with the top models and playmates, pets, etc... it's the same bull shit everywhere. Just take care of yourself.
Peace Diva

TinkleLinkle
05-31-2004, 07:10 PM
Diva, where are you working? how is the money there?

Lane
06-04-2004, 09:15 PM
Hi again. I originally heard this from a barback. He said they were cited for "distance". I assumed the six inch part because that's what I thought the law was. But maybe that's just a Scores thing. But I heard it again this week from someone who is usually in the know. He said one more and they will be closed. I still find this very hard to believe. Who knows.

Melonie
06-06-2004, 10:42 AM
Lane, this is beginning to sound like the new Manhattan councilwoman is actually being successful in stirring up anti-strip club sentiment in NYC. I would guess that the fact that the Republican convention is coming to NYC in a month or so also plays into this - i.e. the mayor & NYC cops forcing clubs to clean up their act before the convention to minimize the possibility of damaging news coverage. Between this and the American Express lawsuit it's probably going to be a long, hot, and poor earnings summer for NYC dancers !

TinkleLinkle
06-07-2004, 02:11 PM
ahhhhhhhhhhh, why can't they just leave us alone! Fuck, can we earn a living without some woman who probably never struggled a day in her life trying to ruin something that has been around for centuries. I'd like to give her a piece of my mind. what's that saying " walk a mile in my shoes..."

The_Kid
06-09-2004, 12:16 PM
TinkleLinkle- Welcome to the wonderfully hypocritical
world of American politics. Strip-clubs are a very convenient target because, inter alia, a lot of supposedly "learned" automatically accept the notion
that clubs where naked and / or topless women are
dancing have a deleterious effect on the quality of
life of the surrounding neighborhood. This is so despite
the fact that every reputable sociological study done on
the subject has shown that strip-clubs have far fewer
violent incidents than "straight" bars & clubs ; that the
customers tend to be better behaved than at other
type clubs- i.e. less public urination; less rowdy behavior etc. Worse yet, there has never been a
documented connection directly linking sex businesses
and crime. Certainly, there was a lot of crime in Boston's "Combat Zone", parts of Baltimore & New
Orleans where sex businesses happened to be but
it resulted from drugs and the presence of a criminal
element separate & apart from strippers.
Some of the arguments advanced against strip clubs
are geuninely laughable and would not be taken
seriously in any other context BECAUSE they lack
supporting EVIDENCE. It's like saying that ' when it's raining you see a lot of people using umbrellas
therefore rain is caused by umbrella usage.Get rid of the umbrellas and it won't rain.' Seriously !
Even the most liberal politician is not going to come out in favor of strip clubs. The only real recourse is to fight it out in the courts and try to retain the minimal First
Amendment protection that still exists.

Melonie
06-09-2004, 01:22 PM
Some of the arguments advanced against strip clubs are geuninely laughable and would not be taken
seriously in any other context BECAUSE they lack
supporting EVIDENCE

Unfortunately, in American politics, the validity of the actual evidence is much less important than the seriousness of the charge. People with an anti-dance club agenda such as bible thumpers and conservatives need only create publicity and mention possible issues such as prostitution, drug use, STD's, higher crime rates, decreasing property values etc., to stir up political support for an anti-dance club ordinance or increased police presence in strip clubs.

Most local residents, with only the Hollywood Stereotype to guide them, may never question that the points being raised in regard to strip clubs are actual facts rather than total bullshit, and will vote for a new anti-dance club ordinance out of fear and ignorance. Nowhere in this process is it necessary to actually prove that the accusations against strip clubs are factual - all that is needed is votes from neighborhood residents on election day (or in some cities, votes from 3 out of 5 city council members at any monthly meeting) and poof a new anti-dance club ordinance becomes law.

The only time actual facts become an issue is AFTER a new anti-dance club ordinance has been enacted, AFTER the new restrictions are costing the club and the dancers tons of lost income, and AFTER a strip club owner has raised tens of thousands of dollars to mount a legal appeal against the new ordinance. Then and only then does the strip club owner get to try and disprove the bullshit charges used as a basis for passing the ordinance. And even if these bullshit charges are disproved, this is only one small factor toward the appeals judge actually deciding to strike down an ordinance after legally registered voters or duly elected city council members have voted the ordinance into effect. This basically boils down to ambitious politicians using the American legal system against clubs in a different way besides law enforcement, because once something has already become law it is much more difficult to have it repealed regardless of the real reasons it became law in the first place.

In the American legal system, given the Hollywood Stereotype of 'strippers' most average people are fed via TV and movies, clubowners and dancers are actually put in a position of being assumed guilty until proven innocent (at their own expense !), and assumed to be a negative influence in any community until proven otherwise.

The_Kid
06-11-2004, 01:05 PM
Melonie- I never get tired of thanking you for all of
your intelligent, informed and insightful commentary;
particularly in the legal/political arena.
I may be wrong but it seems to me that the BEST
antidote to all the mis-information about strippers and
strip clubs is accurate and truthful information.i.e.
the "... best way to oppose 'bad speech' is with 'good
speech'. For instance, there's been a good bit of discussion on this site about the recent N.Y.Times
article and the silly Daily News "restaurant review"
of Robert's Steakhouse @ PEC. The former was relatively fair and balanced while the latter was at
best immature.
As a native New Yawker I'm a little bit surprised that
neither New York Magazine nor the Village Voice has
had anything addressing the West Side issues. Both
have a history of publishing very informed and objective
pieces about strip clubs, strippers and the sex biz.
Both have writers capable of going to strip clubs, talking to strippers and actually LISTENING to what
they have to say. If any of you gals have any contacts
with either or both it might be a good idea to reach out
and see if there's any interest in doing a serious story.
Just a thought.

Melonie
06-12-2004, 08:00 AM
The risk involved in seeking publicity is, of course, that many local residents will interpret any media reports reminding them of strip clubs in their midst as bad news, regardless of whether the content of the reports are positive or negative. Additional media reports also provide extra opportunities for the conservative new Manhattan city councilwoman to respond with more plugs for her neo-anti dance club crusade. Sometimes you have to take the old saying "no news is good news" inside out, i.e. "any news is bad news" !

My personal take on the situation is that there is a play being made for major federal money to revitalize Manhattan i.e. expanding the Convention Center, a new pro sports stadium etc. The impression I get is that some politicians fear the presence of lots of strip clubs as an extra minus factor to federal money being granted to Manhattan versus a different, more conservative city.

The_Kid
06-14-2004, 11:31 AM
Melonie- Point taken on both counts. BTW- I think you're right about the Federal money angle. When you
think about it, it just shows how impotent Hillary &
"Chuckie Cheese" Schumer really are down in D.C.
On a per capita basis, Helena, Montana is getting more
"anti-terrorism " $ than NYC, just to cite one glaring
example of The Big Apple getting shortchanged by the
Feds. Where have Hillary and Chuckie been ? What are
they doing about it? Don't be surprised if ultimately
there is little to NO Federal funds to be had. If NYC is
not getting it's fair share of anti-terrorism assistance
why expect there to be substantial money for economic
development coming from Washington?