View Full Version : Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.
Madcap
05-01-2004, 06:15 PM
Deagol's list in meaningless.
The USA has 130,000 troops in Iraq, while the entirety of the 'coalition' has about 30,000 all put together (not sure how much Britain has so I did not count them). Ooooooh, spain withdrew it's seven guys, big loss.
Come on, lets get real. Japan's whole 500 soldiers left? Lets all weep.
Get outta here. The 'coalition of the willing', is in fact the 'coalition of the lipsynching.'
No-one sent a substantial troop placement but the british. And we keep dropping bombs on them (which is another story entire).
randompl
05-01-2004, 08:05 PM
HEY! Ace_Barker, when did you become Lestat??? I'm very confused.
They're different people, they just have the same avatar.
Malibu
05-02-2004, 01:23 AM
The only thing that surprises me is that everyone was surprised to hear this.
I am not putting down every soldier that has gone overseas to truly stop the chaos. For many, it is why they joined the army in the first place. On the flip side, you do get your groups of soldiers who use the job to gain every bit of power, control and authority they can and unfortunately abuse this by being aggressive and yes, dictatorial.
Sickening isn't even the word. These people don't even know what human rights are and I hope that they get every book thrown at them for what they have done. And you know what? Citizens of the countries they portray (i.e. us) all look the same to these affected individuals. No wonder people are beginning to trust the West less (of course, this isn't the only reason). It's spreading neverending fear of each other.
Deogol
05-02-2004, 05:32 AM
Deagol's list in meaningless.
The USA has 130,000 troops in Iraq, while the entirety of the 'coalition' has about 30,000 all put together (not sure how much Britain has so I did not count them). Ooooooh, spain withdrew it's seven guys, big loss.
Come on, lets get real. Japan's whole 500 soldiers left? Lets all weep.
Get outta here. The 'coalition of the willing', is in fact the 'coalition of the lipsynching.'
No-one sent a substantial troop placement but the british. And we keep dropping bombs on them (which is another story entire).
Ahhh, you all are a bunch of communists! ;D
But seriously, they may not have many troops on the ground, but they are allowing us to use their airspace, something that is important in modern combat. They are willing to let us place bases on their soil, and to fly missions from their soil. They are providing materials, both civilian and military. They are providing intelligence, some a little better than others albeit. All of this stuff helps.
But most importantly, they are all saying "Hey, the UN is broken. We don't know where it got broken or how it got broken, but there is some stuff going on in the world that it is not handling appropriately."
And simply because Germany, France, and Russia don't want to help doesn't mean the rest of the world isn't interested. If you fill in a map of the countries that are part of the coalition, you will see it approaches forty percent. That is nearly half the world that was concerned about Hussein and is concerned with Iraq. Other than Russia, Germany, and France, (which have all shown they were making money off the cruelty of Saddam) the rest of the world figures it is not their problem. So one can say a great minority of the world is against the idea.
seraya
05-02-2004, 07:37 AM
Makes me wonder if you read at all, Seraya, because I explained it was an illegal russian MIG with illegal french electronics equipment.
I stand corrected... yes you did explain that they claim that it was a russian MIG. I apologize.
And yes, I really do know what that picture is all about. It is about Saddam hiding weapons he should not have under the desert.
The american's claim to have found a russian MIG buried under the desert... however this is reported to be "unclassified" information i e. not confirmed ( read the articles ).... i like how you didn't mention that part, instead post a picture of a jet found buried in the sand and make out as if it is a FACT that WMD were being hidden in Iraq to be used for an attack on the US.
Just out of curiosty..... did you follow the hutton inquiry? About dr. kelly who was a respected expert on biological weapons and former UN arms inspector. He "supposedly" commited suicide ( yea right!)shortly after the Ministry of Defence, his employer, exposed him as the source of a BBC report which claimed that the government had "sexed up" intelligence on Iraq setting out the case for war.
The source of the picture is a captian in the US army.
Which makes me even more suspicious.
You assume to much
Like i already said neither of us know the real truth so all we can do is "assume". I never once said that there wasn't WMD in Iraq i simply said.....qoute "then moved on to Iraq, claiming that they were storing "WMD" weapons which haven't been found till this very day." Which they have not.
Seraya.
ace_barker
05-02-2004, 08:25 AM
"Just out of curiosty..... did you follow the hutton inquiry? About dr. kelly who was a respected expert on biological weapons and former UN arms inspector. He "supposedly" commited suicide ( yea right!)shortly after the Ministry of Defence, his employer, exposed him as the source of a BBC report which claimed that the government had "sexed up" intelligence on Iraq setting out the case for war."
Seraya, didn't they try to blame Blair for his "murder" and found nothing to prove the government had anything to do with this guys suicide and severely chastised the BBC for their reporting. I think the report came out and said the guys claims were false also. just another conspiracy theory shot down.
I hate to say it but to me the BBC is not a legitimate news source anymore (along with NBC and CNN). They have an anti-war agenda which is not reporting the news but trying to shape it and they got caught big-time in this doctors suicide. Didn't they also get reporters thrown off British warships because of something either the reporters or the BBC headquarters were doing to the stories? Help me out there seraya, I'm sure you know about this
ace_barker
05-02-2004, 08:26 AM
OK I'll get a new avatar but how do I put in a picture? make it easy because I am computer challenged.
seraya
05-02-2004, 09:42 AM
Seraya, didn't they try to blame Blair for his "murder" and found nothing to prove the government had anything to do with this guys suicide and severely chastised the BBC for their reporting. I think the report came out and said the guys claims were false also. just another conspiracy theory shot down.
That is incorrect. It wasn't actually the BBC who tried to blame the goverment for the death of David kelly. Medical experts, intellegent officers, key witnesses, the British public amongst others do not believe that he committed suicide.
PPl are also angered at the fact the Lord hutton who lead the inquiry was a judge and not an expert coroner. I feel that the inquiry should have been conducted by an independent coroner/judge not one chosen by the goverment, or whoever.
The thing is... many doctors and pathologist argued that it would be impossible for him to to die from haemorrhage. There was no obvious arterieal (sp)bleeding. There was no huge blood loss or any obvious blood loss on his clothes, apart from a small patch on his knee. Also David Kelly was a world-class scientist so it doesn't make sense that he would try to cut the ulnar artery, ( which is apparently very unlikely to lead to death )deep inside the wrist and hard to find, with a blunt knife. There is also huge uncertainty that he took an over dose of Co-Proxamol. His dr confirmed that he was never prescribed these pills...... they found an empty pack of 30 by his body but according to the hutton inquiry only a fifth of a tablet was in his stomach, during the autopsy.
Anyway, sooo much of the evidence didn't make any sense. There were his missing medical files, times didn't make any sense etc but they decided to over look all of this.
But lets be honest now.... They are hardly likely to admit that he died from "suspicous circumstances".
The fact is, he was threat and a liability to intellegent sources.
I hate to say it but to me the BBC is not a legitimate news source anymore (along with NBC and CNN). They have an anti-war agenda which is not reporting the news but trying to shape it and they got caught big-time in this doctors suicide.
I actually agree with the first sentence. But the BBC didn't get caught out of anything in this instance.... They are also being accused of being somewhat responsible for dr. kelly's death, because they "outed" him as the source.
Didn't they also get reporters thrown off British warships because of something either the reporters or the BBC headquarters were doing to the stories? Help me out there seraya, I'm sure you know about this
Im not to sure of this story ace, sorry
Seraya.
VenusGoddess
05-02-2004, 10:00 AM
Well, everyone, I still find it funny that the REASONS we went to war with Iraq has changed a couple of times. First, it was because they had WMD (although none have ever been found). Then, It was because they were trying to rid Iraq of their evil, twisted dictator (for human rights)...now, it seems that we are over there because they help terrorists. Oh, well. Not that this surprises me...It's kind of hard for the President to keep his story straight when there are other people actually running the show...
lestat1
05-02-2004, 10:44 AM
OK I'll get a new avatar but how do I put in a picture? make it easy because I am computer challenged.
Thank you.
I don't mind bitching about the many faults and problems with the U.S., so long as it's constructive and not part of an agenda OTHER than making the country better. What exactly is the solution being offered here? What we're doing right now isn't perfect, but I'm a pretty smart guy and I'm having trouble coming up with a better plan. Kinda tough to form a broader coalition without getting in to bed with other nations who've done wrong (and then aren't we wrong for joining up with them?) Get France and Russia to help? They helped out Saddam. Put an Iraqi gov't in place quickly and leave? The country will tear itself apart far worse than Saddam did. Send more troops and crack down harder? That'll fuel hatred and bring more rebels to the cause. Sudenly just complaining and bitching is sounding like a pretty good plan. LOL
montythegeek
05-02-2004, 11:49 AM
Seraya, question for you.
Not that I have an interest in the matter( I have no dog in this hunt), BUT. Unless there is some unknown estrangement between Dr. Kelly and his family, why does his family not play a lead role in all these suspicions?
per the BBC at this address:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3513812.stm
For the Kelly family, barrister Jeremy Gompertz QC said they accepted Lord Hutton's findings "as to the mode and approximate cause of the weapons expert's death".
But he added: "The family is however disappointed that Lord Hutton did not consider more fully the extent to which the state of mind in which Dr Kelly took his own life was induced by the failings of the Ministry of Defence in the exercise of the duty of care owed to him as his employer."
Unless I am misreading this, the family has no problems with the conclusion, merely the fact that the Ministry did not see him as a suicide risk and perhaps failed on some other ground?
As for the wound deemed fatal. If one were to believe that the presumed means of committing suicide would hardly be fatal, is it not even more far fetched that a supposed assasin would attempt to kill him in such a fashion?
Weluckyfew
05-02-2004, 03:26 PM
OK I'll get a new avatar but how do I put in a picture? make it easy because I am computer challenged.
Thank you.
I don't mind bitching about the many faults and problems with the U.S., so long as it's constructive and not part of an agenda OTHER than making the country better. What exactly is the solution being offered here? What we're doing right now isn't perfect, but I'm a pretty smart guy and I'm having trouble coming up with a better plan. Kinda tough to form a broader coalition without getting in to bed with other nations who've done wrong (and then aren't we wrong for joining up with them?) Get France and Russia to help? They helped out Saddam. Put an Iraqi gov't in place quickly and leave? The country will tear itself apart far worse than Saddam did. Send more troops and crack down harder? That'll fuel hatred and bring more rebels to the cause. Sudenly just complaining and bitching is sounding like a pretty good plan. LOL
I agree, there are no easy answers here, but I believe what's being done is making matters far worse. Hatred of America has skyrocketed (and recruitment of Muslim extremist groups is increasing), hundreds of Americans are dying/being maimed, thousands of Iraqis are dying/being maimed, we're pouring money out over there, etc etc etc
Problem is George Bush has lost all credibility with the world so he can't get help from where we need it, namely muslim countries. If we had a real coalition (that means they actually contribute) of Egyptian, Saudi Arabian, Jordanian, Indonesian, Pakistani troops - led by the United States - then maybe we could get something accomplished (but it's still a longshot)
No matter what that country was headed for chaos when Saddam died/was kicked out, but since we're the ones who did it now we're going to shoulder the responsibility and blame for that chaos.
<<<Well, everyone, I still find it funny that the REASONS we went to war with Iraq has changed a couple of times. First, it was because they had WMD (although none have ever been found). Then, It was because they were trying to rid Iraq of their evil, twisted dictator (for human rights)...now, it seems that we are over there because they help terrorists.>>>
And don't forget, Venus, the newest reason is that we're there to promote democracy so that it will sweep across the Middle East and lead to democracies all across the region. Really? We're talking about an area of the world that hates America, and we want them electing their leaders? No, America is not interested in democracy in the Middle East for a long, long time.
Weluckyfew
05-02-2004, 03:40 PM
Deagol's list in meaningless.
If you fill in a map of the countries that are part of the coalition, you will see it approaches forty percent. That is nearly half the world that was concerned about Hussein and is concerned with Iraq. Other than Russia, Germany, and France, (which have all shown they were making money off the cruelty of Saddam) the rest of the world figures it is not their problem. So one can say a great minority of the world is against the idea.
You can measure this coalition any way you want, but there are only two ways that matter - who's paying the bills and who's shedding the blood. If these countries were really all fired up about Saddam and Iraq they would be doing something. They're not FOR us so much as just NOT against us. -
Even look at your own wording - they were "concerned." Well, not concerned enough to do anything more than say "Go get 'im America!"
Russia, Germany, and France were making money off the cruelty of Saddam? What a coincidence, so were subsidiaries of Halliburton while Cheney was still the CEO.
No one is saying the UN is perfect...no one is even saying it's a great idea...but it's the best we've come up with so far, and sure as hell beats the alternative.
vegasvixen1
05-02-2004, 03:49 PM
AAAHHH, do any of u know how very entertaining it is to sit back and watch all of u wearing yourselves out thinking that each one of yourselves is Colin Powell or Condaleeza Rice or whoever you all think u are. especially weluckyfew....yeah they could definitely use your harvard degree in the White House lol lol lol
Melonie
05-02-2004, 05:54 PM
IMHO, all of the mysteries regarding "missing" WMD's will be solved after coalition troops cross the Syrian border and start digging in the Syrian desert !
Madcap
05-02-2004, 08:48 PM
Well, stuff like this has happened in just about every war, since there has been such a thing as war. You wouldn't believe some of the shit that happened in Vietnam, on both sides. World war 2 was just as bad. The Japaneese soldiers were totally brutal, which led to American soldiers total and complete lack of any mercy in most situations. Did you know that in WWII, most pacific regiments had a policy to never take any prisoners? Many a Japaneese grunt had his brains blown across shallow earth. Not that they didn't deserve it for the havok they caused in China and the Phillipenes, but still.
Our guys at least weren't known for massacreing civillians, like the Imperial Army was, but they offered no quarter. It was a rare event when a surrendering Imperial Japaneese soldier was actually allowed to live. Take one prisoner and you just might get chewed out by the brass.
Vietnam was worse. My Dad had some stories to tell about that war, once I was old enough to drink a few beers with him. That shit shakes the core. It's hard to believe.
Happens all the time. War has that effect on seemingly normal people. The ancient Spartains used to call it the Old Greek word for "Possession.'
Melonie~
Or Iran. Or Saudi Arabia. Or any number of other local states.
Weluckyfew
05-02-2004, 09:17 PM
AAAHHH, do any of u know how very entertaining it is to sit back and watch all of u wearing yourselves out thinking that each one of yourselves is Colin Powell or Condaleeza Rice or whoever you all think u are. especially weluckyfew....yeah they could definitely use your harvard degree in the White House lol lol lol
AAAHHH, do any of u know how very entertaining it is to sit back and watch all of u wearing yourselves out thinking that each one of yourselves is Colin Powell or Condaleeza Rice or whoever you all think u are. especially weluckyfew....yeah they could definitely use your harvard degree in the White House lol lol lol
aaahhh...the brainiac from Vegas rears her little head again. Having someone of your obvious depth and experience question my arguments truly shreds my ego.
If you'd like to rebut any of the points i made (jeez, God knows I made enough of them - ) you're more than welcome to. So far the only thing we've gotten from you beyond "I luvs me my marine" and "You have the right to free speech so shut up!" was when you said that it was obvious to anyone intelligent that the Marines in the photos were just fucking around. Actually you said f***ing around, because someone who extolls the glories of tricking drunk customers out of their entire paycheck is too morally upstanding to actually write the word fuck.
Well, sorry I don't have a Harvard degree (which apparently is what you think it takes to have an intelligent opinion) but now it's coming out that not only are those photos authentic but these things may have actually been done under orders. So that leaves your posts a little thin in the intelligent opinion department. Thanks for playing though, and keep posting all the stupid insults you'd like. Unlike you I actually believe in a few things this nation stands for, like free speech.
Weluckyfew
05-02-2004, 09:33 PM
Well, stuff like this has happened in just about every war, since there has been such a thing as war. You wouldn't believe some of the shit that happened in Vietnam, on both sides. World war 2 was just as bad. The Japaneese soldiers were totally brutal, which led to American soldiers total and complete lack of any mercy in most situations. Did you know that in WWII, most pacific regiments had a policy to never take any prisoners? Many a Japaneese grunt had his brains blown across shallow earth. Not that they didn't deserve it for the havok they caused in China and the Phillipenes, but still.
Our guys at least weren't known for massacreing civillians, like the Imperial Army was, but they offered no quarter. It was a rare event when a surrendering Imperial Japaneese soldier was actually allowed to live. Take one prisoner and you just might get chewed out by the brass.
Vietnam was worse. My Dad had some stories to tell about that war, once I was old enough to drink a few beers with him. That shit shakes the core. It's hard to believe.
Happens all the time. War has that effect on seemingly normal people. The ancient Spartains used to call it the Old Greek word for "Possession.'
Melonie~
Or Iran. Or Saudi Arabia. Or any number of other local states.
true, we didn't massacre villagers at gunpoint, but we certainly slaughtered them from the air (firbombing of Dresden and Tokyo come to mind.) We tend to do our harming of innocents from a distance and console ourselves that we're usually not intending to harm them, they're just colateral damage. Obviously we're not nearly as bad as the Japanese or germans were, but our hands were far from clean. Another difference is that once we conquer we usually try to build them back up (although there were very strong voices calling for the total annihalation of German/Japanese industry, reverting them to agrarian societies)
As for WMDs, a lot of anti-war opinions I heards thought they exosted, just didn't think they posed a large enough threat to go to war and take responsibility for an entire nation. And by "not a large enough threat" I mean there weren't enough of them and those that we thought existed were of low quality and Saddam had no reason to give them to terrorists. Of course if there were tons of them and they were high quality and they're now scattered to the four winds, like some here are arguing, then now they're more of a danger to us than they were before the war. Oooppssss.
Madcap
05-03-2004, 12:08 AM
Weluckyfew~
I appreciate your conviction, but i still must dissagree with you. Yes, when the allies firebombed Dresden we committed a shit act. But it's not like they had their hands clean either. Do you actually expect me to believe that the German civillians had no knowledge of the camps? They had noses didn't they? Dresden was so close to a concentration camp that you could have hit it with a baseball! They placed themselves on the wrong side of history, and if we know one thing it's this: When you place yourself on the wrong side of history you tend to die. Good or bad, you tend to die. You'll die of old age before you hear me decry the world war 2 soldiers for kicking Hitler's ass. However they did it. That motherfucker's ass needed kicking.
Those people had noses. They were not retards. They might not have known just what was going on, but if you expect me to believe they had no idea, you are sorely mistaken.
I'll tell you this, one problem i have with the war in iraq is the constant comparison from Saddam to Hitler. That is ludicrous. Nazi Germany was a WORLD POWER that was #1 on the planet in practically everything! Iraq was (and is) a broken down third world nation. There is no comparison between Saddam and Hitler. Hitler was a bullet-shot more evil.
My biggest issue with the retarded war in iraq is that it took attention away from getting the dyalysis freak Osama Bin Ladin. Fuck Saddam. Osama needs to feel the hammer.
I do NOT support the war in Iraq because it makes it less safe for us average americans. All it does is supply Al Quaeda with a steady source of young dumb and full of cum iraqi morons to fly more planes. We need to be kicking bin ladin ass. And kicking it good.
Iraqw is a distraction from the more important goal.
vegasvixen1
05-03-2004, 02:50 AM
weluckyfew, if i were u (and thank god im not) i would probably not proclaim my supposed politically correct flawless knowledge of our gov. and there reasons or policies regarding the treatment of pows at a time of war for this reason...Madcap makes u severely stand out as the uneducated ass which you have repeatedly shown yourself to be. Until he began to speak up you almost (emphasis on almost) pulled off being mildly informed. But now you just look stupid...very , very, stupid. And the worst part is how unwaveringly sure of yourself you are, because now you have made yourself into a cocky uninformed ass. I hear thats the worst kind to be. However i stand corrected, afterall a pillar of knowledge such as yourself must be right I mean otherwise you might do something other than dj. continue to make an ass out of yourself by talking down to little strippers and then being corrected by madcap, time and time again. Like i previously said, it is now become entertainment.
How digusted and ashamed was i when i watched this on the news a few hrs ago! >:(
On April 29, CBS television's "60 Minutes II" program screened graphic images of Iraqi prisoners being tortured and sexually humiliated by US troops at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad. The photographs, which show American soldiers- men and women-smiling, laughing or giving thumbs-up signs alongside naked Iraqi prisoners, expose the sadistic and brutal methods employed by American forces and provide more evidence of the catalog of war crimes being committed by US-led forces in Iraq.
One of the pictures shows an Iraqi prisoner standing on a box with a hood over his head. Electric wires are attached to his hands. He was told that if he fell off the box he would be electrocuted. Another photograph is of naked male detainees stacked in a pyramid shape, one of the men has a slur written on his skin in English. In some pictures, prisoners are positioned to simulate sex with each other while US troops point and laugh.
Ok, I, as everyone else, have my own winded opinion about this topic, but did you happen to see the Daniel Pearl video, where he (an American reporter) was decapitated on camera and broadcast for the whole world to see??? Or did you see the photos of the American contractors that were burned and hung from a bridge?
Troops are there to do a job, and quite frankly, if the succeed, they should celebrate because you known damn well the opposition would!
Gary McPenis
05-03-2004, 09:53 AM
Anyway i just wanted to know your thought's.... i personally find it embarrassing and sickning.... This is no different from what sadam did imo.
That's an incredibly foolish thing to say. Yes, what these soldiers did was wrong, but to equate it with the type of atrocities that we know saddam to be guilty of is nothing short of stupid.
Humiliation is one thing; systematic rape, murder and torture are quite another.
And for the record, Iraq 1) WAS a proven sponsor of terror, albeit palestinian, and 2) remained in clear violation of the 1990 cease-fire accord. W of M D aside, that, right there, wat was more than legal justification for the invasion of last April.
Austin Powers would be ashamed of you. There, I said it!
Regards,
Gary McPenis
(New Yorker)
Rhiannon
05-03-2004, 10:01 AM
Ok, I, as everyone else, have my own winded opinion about this topic, but did you happen to see the Daniel Pearl video, where he (an American reporter) was decapitated on camera and broadcast for the whole world to see???
Yep, I remember that one well.. I actually have it bookmarked because someone had requested it awhile back, and I wanted to make sure I could easily access it. It's definitely not easy to watch. At the end, (while they were holding up his head), they had a list of their demands, and a warning that more incidents such as that would follow, if we didn't withdraw from Afganistan. Lovely, isn't it? I wasn't going to post it, but I've had a few PM me and ask to see it. The link is below. But, please, keep in mind, it's extremely graphic.
seraya
05-03-2004, 10:23 AM
color=Maroon]That's an incredibly foolish thing to say. Yes, what these soldiers did was wrong, but to equate it with the type of atrocities that we know saddam to be guilty of is nothing short of stupid.
Hello! You obviously didn't read the rest of thread because you would have noticed my post on page 2....
Quote "yes you are right..... it isn't the same as what sadam did.... The sick shit he did was on a whole different level" ~ Seraya.
But you was probably in such a rush to shoot me down, you over looked that one ......next time pay attention.
Humiliation is one thing; systematic rape, murder and torture are quite another.
FYI ....There are claims and pictures to back those claims, that some of the Iraqi soldiers we're raped, murdered and tortured. by american and british troops.
Read it for yourself. ttp://www.sundayherald.com/41693
the UK was treated to images - courtesy of the Daily Mirror – of British soldiers urinating on a blood-stained Iraqi captive, holding guns against the man’s head, stamping on his face, kicking him in the mouth and beating him in the groin with a rifle butt.
In other pictures, two naked Iraqis are forced to simulate oral sex and a group of naked Iraqi men are made to clamber on to each other’s backs. One dreadful picture features nothing but the bloated face of an Iraqi who has been beaten to death. His body is wrapped in plastic.
Other pictures, which the world has not seen, but which are in the hands of the US military, include shots of a dog attacking a prisoner. An accused soldier says dogs are “used for intimidation factors”.
There are also pictures of an apparent male rape. An Iraqi PoW claims that a civilian translator, hired to work in the prison, raped a male juvenile prisoner. He said: “They covered all the doors with sheets. I heard the screaming ... and the female soldier was taking pictures.”
Austin Powers would be ashamed of you. There, I said it!
Aww well i hope that made you feel better then .... Penis ::)
Seraya.
lestat1
05-03-2004, 10:33 AM
true, we didn't massacre villagers at gunpoint, but we certainly slaughtered them from the air (firbombing of Dresden and Tokyo come to mind.) We tend to do our harming of innocents from a distance and console ourselves that we're usually not intending to harm them, they're just colateral damage. Obviously we're not nearly as bad as the Japanese or germans were, but our hands were far from clean. Another difference is that once we conquer we usually try to build them back up (although there were very strong voices calling for the total annihalation of German/Japanese industry, reverting them to agrarian societies)
Hmmm be careful not to judge our past actions by the standards of today. In WWII, carpet bombing enemy positiuons in the middle of a city was just how wars were fought. I recall a WWII veteran (pilot) on the history channel explaining the differences between then and today - in WWII, if you needed to destroy a bridge, they'd send up dozens of bombers at night, and with luck, they might hit the correct town. With extreme luck, some of the bombs might actually hit the bridge. The tactics were simply the best they had with the technology of the time, and not a function of inhumanity or cruelty as they would be today.
Also, take a step back and be fair. The allied bombing of Germany killed 600,000 civilians, yes. However, it was not a matter or choice of killing 600,000 or not, but of killing 600,000 civilians to end the war and prevent GREATER civilian fatalities. I'll kill 1 to save 3, and 500 to save 1000, 300,000 to save a million, so on. I don't know any better way to measure human life than by those sorts of numbers...does anyone else?
Lastly, a little pet peeve of mine: WWII cost roughly 52 million people their lives, worldwide (factoring in combat, collateral damage, disease, starvation, etc.). People should keep that number in mind when discussing small numbers like a few hundred thousand dead from some particular action.
-lestatdl1
Madcap
05-03-2004, 10:56 AM
The guy who piloted the Enola gay lives (lived?) not fifty miles from me. I knew his grandson for a time. Wanna talk about haunted. Try NUKING Hiroshima!
That guy's been a Jack Daniels addict for sixty years since then.
Madcap
05-03-2004, 11:00 AM
IMHO, all of the mysteries regarding "missing" WMD's will be solved after coalition troops cross the Syrian border and start digging in the Syrian desert !
The way I see it, we're talking about an area that has been inhabited since the beginning of recorded time, no? They know their desert like we never will.
Iraq is the home of both Sumeria and Mesopotamia. Ur, the first city ever is still located there (as is Babylon). And for some reason, the middle east has been at war with itself ever since then. Go figure.
EDIT: Geeze, i don't wanna go to work! There should be a law against making people work evenings!
seraya
05-03-2004, 11:05 AM
Be forewarned...these are heartbreaking.
Doesn't look like playing around to me.
http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/iraqi-pow
These are incredibly graphic.
OMFG ....SICK and yes shameful!
I didn't know iraqi women we're raped by them too! I think maybe some of you should have a look for yourselves.
Anyway i rest my case.
Seraya
OMG, Rhi -
I haven't known anyone til now that has seen that video. I actually watched it about 3 times in a row (thought it was a joke at first) and by the time it was over, I was in tears. It is now something that will never leave my memory and every time I hear (American) people bash what our troops may be doing/have done over there, I want to just tie them to a chair and make them watch that over and over until they realize what kind of insanity our men our dealing with.
So maybe I am a sick f*ck, but IMHO, kill them all.
I cant even explain what those pictures did to me just now.
:( I doubt I will erase that off my memory anytime soon.
Shit like that isnt needed. (Especially the rapes)
And to defend my last statement, the reason I say this is because there ARE innocent people there as well.
When Daniel Pearl was executed, I had evil thoughts towards many of the people over there thinking that we should do it to them as well. But at the same time, I do have some compassion. The thing with the POWs is different, only in the sense that they are killing ours as well, so I guess they think it makes it "ok" and what not.
Anyway, did you all hear that the POW who was missing for three weeks escaped?? Thank GOD!!!!!
Ahh yes, and I read the article too, and agree though. We cant judge the whole army on the acts on a certain few.
Most of them are doing the right thing...
But the negative news always gets the publicity, obviously.
Either way, I hope that they come home soon.
George, we miss you!!!! :(
Madcap
05-03-2004, 11:30 AM
Yeah, the stuff going on in those pics is pretty sickening. At least someone is taking heat for it, might go a ways toward preventing this crap in the near future.
seraya
05-03-2004, 11:34 AM
VEGAS ~
LOL.... look i know your heated and probably feeling a lil small just about now but there is no need for the foul language, try acting like a lady.
I am just one of the many non-dancer's who contribute a great deal to this board. If you go back and read my post's it will become obvious to you as to why i'm here. This is an open board and if you can't except that and deal with the opinion's from other members then maybe you shouldn't bother coming here.
And I'm the idiot? Hey here's a thought since you aren't a US citizen then why dont you keep your uninformed , unimportant little mouth shut because everyone is sick of hearing your blah, blah, blah about our country when u dont even live here.
Read the title of this thread. "Iraqi POWs tortured and sexually abused by US and BRITISH soldiers" HELLO :o
Also if you read my post's you would see that i haven't actually mentioned anything about YOUR country! I spoke about the death of a weapons expert from MY COUNTRY..... and the war which effect's the WORLD.
I can tell that you are deeply offended but lets get something straight. I have not once said a bad word about the american ppl... i love american ppl.... but i am not going excuse the actions of the soldiers that tortured the pow's.
Geez you are so simple. :withstupid:
Seraya.
seraya
05-03-2004, 11:43 AM
OH but since you dont even live in the US events such as 9/11 wouldnt bother you now would they.
My mother was in NYC that VERY day.... My uncles were trapped in NYC with no way out. My BF lives there .... so yes it did bother me, it bothered me a great deal... not just because, for those few hr's i thought my mother could be dead but because thousands of innocent ppl lost their lives.
Maybe if someone crashes a plane into the tower of london or Buckingham Palace or into a bunch of corporate buildings in the heart of London then maybe you would change your pathetic tune.
How about having buildings bombed right where you live and being in the middle of it. Yes that is what we went thorugh everytime the IRS decided to bomb buildings in the heart of London. But i didn't want to go to Ireland and kill innocent and i didn't hate all Irish ppl because of it.
Seraya.
Madcap
05-03-2004, 11:46 AM
Didn't the IRA cut that out though?
I was under the impression that all that was worked out.
Rhiannon
05-03-2004, 11:48 AM
Be forewarned...these are heartbreaking.
Doesn't look like playing around to me.
These are incredibly graphic.
Thank you for sharing the link, Nopink.. I'm left speechless and absolutely disgusted. I had only seen one picture (the one with the hooded prisoner standing on the box with the wires attached to him), I hadn't seen any of the others. I don't know what to say at this point.
Thank you again for sharing them.
~Rhi~
seraya
05-03-2004, 11:51 AM
Didn't the IRA cut that out though?
I was under the impression that all that was worked out.
Oh yes that has all stopped now.... Thankgod! It was horrible waking up to you whole building shaking.
Yea they worked it out.. with peace talks, not war.
Seraya.
Rhiannon
05-03-2004, 11:59 AM
Anyway, did you all hear that the POW who was missing for three weeks escaped?? Thank GOD!!!!!
OMGs yes, Lexi! I saw that on CNN I think last night. It's so nice to see something like that amidst all this other crap. I am incredibly happy for him and his family. I hope they'll be reunited soon.
seraya
05-03-2004, 12:49 PM
NOPKINKSTARS~
Sorry i was so preocupied with my idiot-bashing (he he monty) that i forgot to thank you for sharing that site.
Oh and welcome to the boards btw.
Seraya.
Weluckyfew
05-03-2004, 01:22 PM
Vegas,
anytime you wish to add any facts or opinions that are not immediately proven incorrect you are welcome to, and anytime you wish to prove my "ignorant" statements wrong you're welcome to - until then I am sure I'm not the only one who will be ignoring your diatribes.
As for my "arrogance" -- as I've stated, the reason i love this board is because well informed people of every persuation are debating. I put my beliefs out there and if they are proven wrong then I'm glad, because it means that I've learned something here. I've already apologized for one thing i said that was stupid, and when I'm proven wrong about something else I'll do the same. The point is I'm not sitting arrogantly with my opinions, I'm expressing them so that I can hear other's responses and learn and grow from that experience.
And I wasn't insulting "strippers", I was insulting you for your stated pleasure in tricking drunk people out of their money. See my other thread for more details on this distinction.
Lestat -
I should have made myself more clear, I realize that there were cases where carpet bombing was the only way to strike a target, but that doesn't alter the fact that pursuing the war in that way is a very definate choice. Robert McNamara, the architect of strategic bombing (later Secretary of Defense during Vietnam) has stated that if we had lost the war they would have been prosecuted as war criminals for those actions. And let's remember that in the cases of cities like Dresden and Tokyo the bombings had no strategic value beyond terrorizing the population. - perhaps interesting to note that more people were killed in the firebombing of Tokyo than in Hiroshima or Nagasaki (and again remember these were not just soldiers but women, children, old men, dogs, cats, and the most innocent of all, the goldfish)
That said, of course we weren't as cruel and vicious as the Japanese and germans, but let's remember we weren't saints either. I don't say this to imply we are evil, but just to say we should always be striving for better -
Madcap,
first, congrats on the convertible, I love mine (of course living in Austin helps)
As for doing anything to stop Hitler, let's not forget that nothing is black and white - Stalin, our good ally in that war, was responsible for killing more people than Hitler (although Stalin had more time) The gulags were second only to the Nazi death camps for cruelty and death. My point here is simply that we weren't fighting against Hitler's evil so much as we were fighting to save our own asses - there is NOTHING wrong with that, but let's not declare that we were altruistic.
Dresden - if they knew about the Death camps they all deserved to be firebombed? The women, the children, the old men? There were Germans who tried to stop Hitler, they were slaughtered. Yes, the majority was for him, but many, many were not (including elements of the army who were sickened by the atrocities.)
As far Osama, it's important to get him, but let's rememeber it will change nothing - he's the figurehead/spirtual father of a movement, not some mastermind puppetmaster. he was smart (horrible and vicious and needs to be killed, but smart) and set up thios movement so that it would rely on no organizational structure. What makes it so dangerous is that it's all about encouraging extremists to act on their own, which means there is no "head" to chop off - yes, you have to chop with one hand, but with the other you have to starve the beast, or it just keeps growing. And these pictures of prisoner abucse are just the food it needs.
One disturbing trend I've seen in a few of the posts are people talking about "they" and "those people over there" as if an Iraqi equals an Iraqi insurgent equals a terrorist supporter equals a terrorist equals a 9/11 hijacker. Is it me, am I reading too much into pronouns?
Santos
05-03-2004, 01:23 PM
This is the first I've seen photos of women being raped etc. I wouldn't take those particular photos at face value until there is some supporting evidence. The men in the female rape photos don't even look American. And I don’t believe the men doing the raping are wearing U.S. uniforms.
Weluckyfew
05-03-2004, 01:35 PM
OMG, Rhi -
I haven't known anyone til now that has seen that video. I actually watched it about 3 times in a row (thought it was a joke at first) and by the time it was over, I was in tears. It is now something that will never leave my memory and every time I hear (American) people bash what our troops may be doing/have done over there, I want to just tie them to a chair and make them watch that over and over until they realize what kind of insanity our men our dealing with.
So maybe I am a sick f*ck, but IMHO, kill them all.
Kill all who? Those were Pakistanis who did that to Daniel Pearl, and you're talking about people torturing Iraqis. Is it all Arabs who should be killed, or all Muslims, or all dark skinned people, or anyone who enjoys a good falafel? Sorry we don't have any video of that Iraqi being beaten to death, perhaps then you could tie people to a chair and make them watch that until they hate all Americans. Or perhaps a video of the rape would be more inspirational. The point is we need to think with our heads, not our guts. Violence begets violence so it should be uses as wisely as possible.
After World War I the Allies sought revenge and humiliated Germany with crushing surrender terms (i.e. reperation payments, etc) it made the population resentful, and the depression further ruined them (inflation was so high that there are photos of people carting wheelbarrows full of money just to buy a cup of coffee) Well, they were bitter and they turned to the one man who promised them dignity and prosperity - Hitler.
If you want revenge and cruelty and heartlessness, fine. Just be prepared to fight this war again in a few years.
Someone who hates all Westerners because of the actions of a few is the same as someone who hates all...who is it exactly you want to kill?? -because of the actions of a few.
(By the way, Pakistan is our "ally" in the war, so you'll have to be sure to kill them all accidentally with friendly fire.)
OMG, Rhi -
I haven't known anyone til now that has seen that video. I actually watched it about 3 times in a row (thought it was a joke at first) and by the time it was over, I was in tears. It is now something that will never leave my memory and every time I hear (American) people bash what our troops may be doing/have done over there, I
want to just tie them to a chair and make them watch that over and over until they realize what kind of insanity our men our dealing with.
So maybe I am a sick f*ck, but IMHO, kill them all.
Kill all who?
If you want revenge and cruelty and heartlessness, fine.
Guess I should have added "figuratively speaking" here, but my God, I know the affect it had on me - I was outraged, and rightfully so. All of the anti-war protesters, etc may have a change of heart if they were to see what actually happened to a fellow American, who, I might add, was not even fighting in the war!
I am not saying I agree with rape and malicious conduct by any means - I don't promote it, nor do I preach it. I don't believe in cruelty to any living being, HOWEVER, I do believe in the old "an eye for an eye" addage.
I am also not saying that I think it is right that innocent people (of any nationality, race, creed, etc) should have to endure what those people did, BUT I will say this - I have an 8 year old little boy, and if that were MY son in that video, I would make it my life's work to find the SOB's that were responsible and make them suffer the same torture and torment they brought on him.
Do you have kids? Ever had a loved one in the military? My old best friend was a career marine - and when he wasn't on deployment, we were together constantly - can you imagine how it felt when I found that he was killed in a bomb explosion in Iraq?
I dunno - bash my opnions if you will, but I cannot help the way I feel nor will I conform to someone else's beliefs to get people to like me.
ace_barker
05-03-2004, 02:23 PM
Be forewarned...these are heartbreaking.
Doesn't look like playing around to me.
http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/iraqi-pow
These are incredibly graphic.
I have already said that abuse of prisoners is bad, can't be tolerated and whoever did it should be prosecuted but I'm not going to believe these pictures because of the source. Check out http://www.albasrah.net yourself. This looks like the terrorists own home webpage.
I think it's prudent to let our governments investigate all these claims and not believe everything you see on the internet.
Do I think something happened? Yes. Do I think our military is all evil? NO. I'll wait until the investigation is over.
Not for nothin, but some of the terrorists (whateveeeeever race they are) were wearing American uniforms as well and killing our troops. (They had killed some before hand, used their uniforms, and acted as Americans till they got their chance and killed our own.) If I find the link, I will post it.
But those pics are disturbing, and you are right ace_barker... the investigation should be done before we can say anything because if it is their site it could be a way for them to make the American and British troops look bad. Im not saying it didnt happen, cause it obviously looks like it did, but there IS a chance they werent either ones. You never know.
So yes, we should all wait and see what comes of this.
WeLucky, when I said I was angry with the Daniel Pearl incident and wanted them all dead, Iwas figuratively speaking. I dont think we should KILL everyone (regardless of race, again) BUT at a moment when you see something like that, you cant help but have evil thoughts run your head.
I know Im going off again, BUT when Samantha Runnion was raped and murdered (5 year old little girl) I went ballistic. I dont know her, but she resembled my cousin and for 2 weeks I was hysterical. Could have been PMS, yes. BUT at that moment, I wanted to skin the bastard alive and shove a basball bat up his ass and see how much he liked it.
Yes we tend to get emotional at times because these things come close to home. Nancy, a very good friend of the family, was killed on 9/11. She was in Tower 2. She made it all the way down, and then was killed when the buildings collapsed. Just thinking that she was already a SUPER nervous person (always shook) and that she was the sweetest person you could ever meet (worked with autistic children and wrote a children's book) one gets angry that innocent people die because of the acts of selfish people.
So when people say things, they usually say it out of anger, but it doesnt mean they are always saying what they really feel. (I know I always say mean things and then regret it)
Maybe you are looking too much into pronouns, but its understandable as things come off very wrong, or offensive at times. I hope I didnt offend you. :(
Rhiannon
05-03-2004, 02:58 PM
EXACTLY Lexi! The Iraqis have been wearing US Armed Forces uniforms since the beginning. I'm very glad you pointed that out.
Does anyone honestly believe that the pictures were staged, and the troops were actually doing that to themselves and taking pictures? Come on now.
As for the women being raped... I have no doubt in my mind that they are indeed Iraqi women. Like someone else already mentioned, there were many rapes in Nam, and the other wars, on both sides. It's hard to tell by the pictures if the women "look like Iraqi women", but I'm willing to bet that they are.
Lexi, I remember the Samantha Runion case also. So very sad. Although I hate to wish anyone harm, I did that day. Yesterday, E! was having a "True Hollywood Story" marathon, and Jon Benet Ramsey's story was featured, as well as Laci Peterson, and others. I had a ton of not-very-nice thoughts running through my mind.
While it's true that we have to wait it out and see what comes of the 6 individuals responsible for this, there's obviously something to it. They wouldn't have busted them otherwise. There must be evidence, and obviously they've looked over the prisoners.
VenusGoddess
05-03-2004, 02:59 PM
To Seraya: OH and if you call hating terrorists and people who support (or feel sorry for them such as yourself) terrorists being predjudiced then I am very proud to be. OH but since you dont even live in the US events such as 9/11 wouldnt bother you now would they. ....and you judge me for lacking class????
I would Really like to know how personally 9/11 affected you aside from the fact that you live in the US.
So, you have a Marine boy...that makes you a true patriot? Being that you choose to believe any old lie that is thrown your way to avoid having to deal with the harsh reality that what our American (and British) soldiers did in Iraq were no better than what we accuse the terrorists doing is plenty enough proof that you have absolutely NO clue as to what is REALLY going on...or more accurately...you are willing to look the other way and pretend that it's not happening...which is even worse.
Being patriotic means more than free-speech. I means accepting that someone is advocating at the top of their lungs that which you have spent a lifetime advocating against at the top of yours. Until you can celebrate and accept that, then you are just not really fully informed of what it means to be a TRUE american citizen. Really...one of the reasons our country has broken down so much is because we, as rightful american citizens, have stopped questioning our leaders. Why do you feel that it is so wrong to have a logical debate about what SHOULD (we feel) be done in Iraq? Why do you feel that you need to just follow the orders of another person? Because they told you to?
And, 9/11 was not an American tragedy...it was a global tragedy. There were not just Americans killed that day, but people from all over the world that do business in NY. People who lived and worked in NY and had families in other countries. Aside from the fact that that one, single event took the known capabilities and obsession of the terrorists to a new level...it affects everyone.
Rhiannon
05-03-2004, 03:23 PM
Again, very well said, Venus.
What many fail to realize is that the World Trade Center was called that for a reason. 9/11 affected the whole world. There were countless nationalities in the buildings and inside those planes. It wasn't just a New York thing, or just a US thing. It was a world-wide thing.
Being married to someone in the military, doesn't make you more of an American than anyone else, or more human. I've been there, and it didn't make me support the armed forces any more than if I hadn't been married to one.
These men and women need to be punished, end of story. We want fair treatment of US POWs, then fair treatment of Iraqi prisoners held by us is required.
I will say this though... Everytime I see those pictures, I want to smack that freakin smile right off that female service member's face.
ace_barker
05-03-2004, 03:59 PM
Just saw this on the news. British gov't thinks pictures of British soldiers are fakes. Seems 2 of the guns pictured aren't being used by the troops in Iraq and a floppy hat one of the abusing troops is wearing is not being issued in Iraq either. If these pics are found to be faked, the person(s) who did this should get the death penalty. They are helping the terrorists recruit new nutballs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think I found a great picture for my new avatar. Hopefully I can figure out how to put it up soon.
Rhiannon
05-03-2004, 04:07 PM
Thanks for the update, Ace. I'll have to turn on the news. I do agree with you on the whole death penalty thing. I don't know what to hope for, if they are faked or if they're real. Everyone loses in either case.
It's just very sad.