View Full Version : Iraqi POW's tortured and sexually abused by US and British soldiers.
See? Already something fishy about it. I hope, that whoever did it, gets a nice punishment. Firstly, for torturing the prisoners, secondly for raping the women (How the FUCK is that ok to do, regardless that its war?) and thirdly, for the possibility of being liars.
Lets hope everything comes out soon. (If it was americans and bristish soldiers or the iraqi's lying) Whoever is responsible needs to be punished. Severely.
I hope, that whoever did it, gets a nice punishment. Firstly, for torturing the prisoners, secondly for raping the women (How the FUCK is that ok to do, regardless that its war?)
and we r supposed to be there to stop things like that not do them !!!!
our goverment is acting like terrorist's themselves :'(
Isn't there another way besides war ? I'm not very confident that we HAD to go to war..... war should be a last resort and I dont think it was veiwed that way by this administration AT ALL
:twocents:
Weluckyfew
05-03-2004, 05:06 PM
Ace,
great point, we don't know the full story, but obviously there was some abuse (soldiers have already been disciplined. Unfortunately the "private contractor" mercenaries are under no one's juristiction so who knows if anything will happen to them.)
I don't think it says anything bad about our troops in general - you get 130,000 people together in a violent situation and things like this will happen. But that's the point, when you go war it's never as easy as "beat the bad guy." You open a whole can of worms that you have to deal with for years - that's why a lot of people were against the war. not because we thought Saddam was a great guy but because we thought the "solution" opened us up to more danger than the "problem."
Lexi,
I understand that you were speaking out of emotion, and I've been overly guilty of the same thing (I swear I never talk this much in person - lol)
My point was just that people seem to be lumping the Iraq thing with the Daniel Pearl thing with the 9/11 thing - they're different issues. At the end of that horrific Daniel Pearl video that particular group of terrorists make their demands, and all the demands deal only with Pakistani issues (oddly enough one demand is that the US give Pakistan the F-16's they paid for but that we never delivered - how bizarre is that?)
When we start lumping them together into one group then we oversimplify the problem, which means we oversimplify the solution, and miss the target. At least that's what I think.
Oh, and to address the very few voices here who seem to have the bizarre notion that being against the war means being against the troops, one of the resons I'm against the war is because I can't stand the thought of what is happening to our men and women over there, especially when I feel they are being killed/wounded in a cause that is not helping this nation. (and beyond the dead and wounded and the emotionally scarred there are those who will lose their marriages, their civilian jobs, their houses because of the emotional and financial hardships of being away from home for so long)
Isis, what did I say that confused you?
I said a punishment. Whatever that means depends on what the government will do with them.
So what do you suggest we do with the soldiers if they are infact, american and british ones? Pat them on the back and say, "Hey man...not cool... dont do it again" ??? Nope. They should be terminated from their jobs/etc... Thats a punishment. And if its the Iraqi's? Then what? I dont think its ok to impersonate anyone. Then again, I guess pretending to be a regular flying person on the plane, and then jumping out and killing pilots, and slamming in the world trade center doesnt deserve a harsh punishment?
My point being, that whoever did it, needs to be punished. Obviously we all have opinions, and what you may consider a punishment may not be what the next person does.
VenusGoddess
05-03-2004, 05:33 PM
Lexi: I agree as well that whatever the outcome is, that the people be punished. HOWEVER, I would most likely have to question the story that the British government claims that the pics are fakes. I dunno...I've seen our government try to cover things up to make themselves look better. And the very fact that our government has already apologized for the incidents and promised they would "get to the bottom of it" kind of makes me question the story, anyways. But, I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Madcap
05-03-2004, 09:56 PM
Madcap,
first, congrats on the convertible, I love mine (of course living in Austin helps)
I'm loooooooving it.
As for doing anything to stop Hitler, let's not forget that nothing is black and white - Stalin, our good ally in that war, was responsible for killing more people than Hitler (although Stalin had more time) The gulags were second only to the Nazi death camps for cruelty and death. My point here is simply that we weren't fighting against Hitler's evil so much as we were fighting to save our own asses - there is NOTHING wrong with that, but let's not declare that we were altruistic.
Stalin was on our side out of pure nessecity. Had Hitler kept his word, the soviets may well have ended up joining the Axis. No-one trusted them anyway.
Dresden - if they knew about the Death camps they all deserved to be firebombed? The women, the children, the old men? There were Germans who tried to stop Hitler, they were slaughtered. Yes, the majority was for him, but many, many were not (including elements of the army who were sickened by the atrocities.)
That's true, but my point was that their hands were far from clean. I did point out that firebombing of Dresden was indeed a crappy thing to do.
OTOH, you also have to remember that the bombs of the era were dumb bombs. Their entire guidance system consisted of... gravity. Add this to the percentage of bombardiers who couldn't find their own asses without two hands and a compass, and you have a lot of collateral lives lost. British Lancasters made bombing runs into France, civillians lost their lives and they had nothing to do with the Germans!
The main point is that if you have to firebomb Dresden to stop Hitler, you damned well firebomb Dresden. Had the allies balked at going all they way, the Germans might have WON the war (They were handing the allies their asses through most of the european war, really the only early real victory the allies had was the one the RAF won in the battle of Britain, Rommel pounded Patton in Africa). Had the Germans won the war, Jews, Blacks, Gypsies, et all... would probably be well on the way towards extinction (With Jews and gypsies likely already only a memory), Fascism would be par for the course, and the USA and her allies would be tributary to Berlin if not outright conquered. Their might well have been concentration camps just outside Chicago, Toronto, and Sydney.
In war, all the way back to Leonidas and his 300 Spartans' day, civillians get killed. It's depressing, but I'd rather a few die so that the rest can have a shot at living to old age.
As far Osama, it's important to get him, but let's rememeber it will change nothing - he's the figurehead/spirtual father of a movement, not some mastermind puppetmaster. he was smart (horrible and vicious and needs to be killed, but smart) and set up thios movement so that it would rely on no organizational structure. What makes it so dangerous is that it's all about encouraging extremists to act on their own, which means there is no "head" to chop off - yes, you have to chop with one hand, but with the other you have to starve the beast, or it just keeps growing. And these pictures of prisoner abucse are just the food it needs.
And he IS crazy like a fox. This is the guy who planned two embassy bombings in africa, a thousand miles apart from each other, blown up within minutes of each other. This is the guy who the september 11th attacks start and end with. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, he's a hero in the fanatical parts of the arab world. He's out there thumbing his nose at the US and getting away with it, they love that. Taking him out will have a demoralizing effect on the people who DO want to kill the Daniel Pearls of the world.
They need to get this guy. He's nearing the end of his life, we can't let him die unpunished. He'll be unstoppable should that happen. There will be a dozen Bin Ladins cropping up under every rock in the Middle east should we let that happen.
One disturbing trend I've seen in a few of the posts are people talking about "they" and "those people over there" as if an Iraqi equals an Iraqi insurgent equals a terrorist supporter equals a terrorist equals a 9/11 hijacker. Is it me, am I reading too much into pronouns?
I see what you are saying, but it is a typically human reaction that dates back to when humans were clubbing each other with sticks and hunting cave bears.
Santos
05-03-2004, 10:03 PM
I find it interesting how many are disgusted, sickened and ashamed of our soldiers and now it's coming out they were (possibly) under orders.
Unfortunately Sapphire, a U.S. solider who does something illegal while under orders is still subject to military law. U.S. military personal are (or were) taught a number of things early in their enlistment. One is the difference between a “lawful” and “unlawful” order, and what a solider must do if issued an “unlawful” order.
If a superior gives a solider an order that is unlawful, that solider has the ability (and responsibility) to refuse to carry out the order. Any solider who commits an act that goes against military code, even if ordered to do it, will be prosecuted if caught. As in civilian life, ignorance of the law is not a defense.
And I can tell you from experience that what allegedly occurred at this POW camp was illegal by all U.S. military standards.
The guards who are claiming they didn’t know better and were acting under orders are attempting to save their ass. They may have been under orders, but they should have refused the orders. That is tough for any solider to do, I know, but that is the reality. I have no sympathy for these guards, especially since their actions have now endangered the soldiers on the front lines.
The Tom Cruise film A Few Good Men deals with this subject. At the end of the film, the Marines involved in the hazing death of fellow soldier were convicted, even though they were ordered to commit the act.
From: U.S. Army Field Manual 27-10:
89. Humane Treatment of Prisoners
Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention.
In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.
Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.
Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited. (GPW, art. 13.)
90. Respect for the Person of Prisoners
Prisoners of war are entitled in all circumstances to respect for their persons and their honor.
Women shall be treated with all the regard due to their sex and shall in all cases benefit by treatment as favorable as that granted to men.
Madcap
05-03-2004, 10:21 PM
I dont think its ok to impersonate anyone.
Except Marylin Munroe. Impersonate her all you want (especially if you are wearing a dress and standing over a vent! Just make sure and not wear underwear, remember those pesky pantielines!).
Weluckyfew
05-04-2004, 01:03 AM
<<<Stalin was on our side out of pure nessecity. >>>
Absolutely, I'm just saying let's not characterize World War II as us taking a stand against evil - it was about saving our ass (again, nothing wrong with that) We always love to say how we stood up to the evil slaughtering madman - yes, we did, by allying ourselves with another evil, slaughtering madman. I'm not saying what we did was wrong, just saying we should be honest about it.
<<<you also have to remember that the bombs of the era were dumb bombs. >>>
Understood, but again I'm not talking about accidental killings or "colateral damage." We weren't after a target in Dresden (or Tokyo, or etc) our goal was to wipe out every man, woman and child in the city. That was our strategy, to anihilate the city in order to help break the German will - in Dresden we created a firestorm so fierce that flesh literally melted. Was it neccessary for the war? Maybe they thought so at the time, but it didn't end up helping.
My point is (I think, we've talked about it so long I can't remember), when we feel we need to we can be just as cold and ruthless as people who fly planes into buildings. What sets us apart, hopefully, is what we aim to do once we win.
<<<we can't let him die unpunished. He'll be unstoppable should that happen. There will be a dozen Bin Ladins cropping up under every rock in the Middle east should we let that happen.>>>
At this point he's already won on that issue. if he eludes us until he dies a natural death he stays a legend, and if we kill him he becomes a martyr. There are already Bin Ladens under every rock, and incidents like the Iraqi prisoner fiasco and Bush backing Sharon on his plan for the Gaza Strip are fueling the fire.
Don't get me wrong, I think we still need to be hunting him down, but I just don't think it's going to make much difference whether we find him or not -- kill him he's a martyr, capture him alive and then you have to figure out what to do with him (good luck on that one)
Madcap
05-04-2004, 01:35 AM
<<<Stalin was on our side out of pure nessecity. >>>
Absolutely, I'm just saying let's not characterize World War II as us taking a stand against evil - it was about saving our ass (again, nothing wrong with that) We always love to say how we stood up to the evil slaughtering madman - yes, we did, by allying ourselves with another evil, slaughtering madman. I'm not saying what we did was wrong, just saying we should be honest about it.
The enemy of my greater enemy is my friend.... for now. It makes sense. I'd have accepted Stalin too. That makes Hitler fight a two front war, a bad proposition under even the best conditions.
<<<you also have to remember that the bombs of the era were dumb bombs. >>>
Understood, but again I'm not talking about accidental killings or "colateral damage." We weren't after a target in Dresden (or Tokyo, or etc) our goal was to wipe out every man, woman and child in the city. That was our strategy, to anihilate the city in order to help break the German will - in Dresden we created a firestorm so fierce that flesh literally melted. Was it neccessary for the war? Maybe they thought so at the time, but it didn't end up helping.
Lets not forget the batallions of soldiuers and panzers (along with the new, at the time, tigers) that were always there. There was an army stationed there. Along with panzer and the new tiger tanks.
Can't forget about that aspect.
My point is (I think, we've talked about it so long I can't remember), when we feel we need to we can be just as cold and ruthless as people who fly planes into buildings. What sets us apart, hopefully, is what we aim to do once we win.
Sometimes. It depends on who is in office and where.
<<<we can't let him die unpunished. He'll be unstoppable should that happen. There will be a dozen Bin Ladins cropping up under every rock in the Middle east should we let that happen.>>>
At this point he's already won on that issue. if he eludes us until he dies a natural death he stays a legend, and if we kill him he becomes a martyr. There are already Bin Ladens under every rock, and incidents like the Iraqi prisoner fiasco and Bush backing Sharon on his plan for the Gaza Strip are fueling the fire.
Not if we get him. If the legendary Bin Ladin gets caught and tried it might tell some other morons that you can't hide from the planet. When the majority of the human race is hunting you, you get caught.
It's a message. Those are the important things.
Don't get me wrong, I think we still need to be hunting him down, but I just don't think it's going to make much difference whether we find him or not -- kill him he's a martyr, capture him alive and then you have to figure out what to do with him (good luck on that one)
Let him die and he's a martyr. Capture him and he gets tried before the world. In this case, the free world gets to make it's case. He dies of kidney stones or some dyalysis shit and he's superman. He's Elvis. He'll never die.
Weluckyfew
05-04-2004, 02:20 AM
<<<The enemy of my greater enemy is my friend.... for now. It makes sense. I'd have accepted Stalin too. That makes Hitler fight a two front war, a bad proposition under even the best conditions.>>>
OK...we're talking past each other here - I'm not arguing tactics, I'm saying that when people talk about World War II in altruistic terms it's bullshit, we fought the war for very selfish reasons --and there's nothing wrong with that, but let's not pretend it was some great crusade against evil. It was a great crusade against someone who wanted to kick our ass. Just like now when people say how great we are for fighting a war to liberate the Iraqis - we didn't fight it for that reason.
<<<Lets not forget the batallions of soldiuers and panzers (along with the new, at the time, tigers) that were always there. There was an army stationed there. Along with panzer and the new tiger tanks. >>>
uuuummm....no. Again, we're talking past each other, you keep speaking of this as if the civilian casualties were an accident - they weren't. The purpose of fire-bombing this city was to destroy it and kill its citizens, as part of a strategy to break the will of the German people. It was of so little strategic importance that it had not even one anti-aircraft gun. If you wish to argue that it was right to wipe out this city then fine, that is certainly the opinion of some scholars. But you can't say that the sole purpose of the raid was anything other than the city's destruction as a means of terrorizing the population (and I'm not arguing that's a good or bad thing, just stating the fact.).
<<<Capture him and he gets tried before the world.>>>
Which would give him a wonderful forum to promote his message. What a dream that would be for their cause, their spirtual leader lecturing some world court about the sins on the West - it would make him a hundred times the symbol he is now.
He's already won this round, even if we find him he's already elluded "the world" for almost three years. Again, I'm not saying we shouldn't find him and kill him, I'm just saying I don't think it'll matter. In my opinion the best thing that could happen would be for him to die anonymously so he'd just end up fading away. Any definate ending just heightens his prestige.
Weluckyfew
05-04-2004, 02:34 AM
Anyone else getting hate e-mail from Vegasvixen? She's like some Jerry Springer guest that works themself into a frenzy and just keeps swinging at anything that moves.
Sad thing is she's too insecure and defensive to see that most of us agree with her about supporting the troops - I suppose it would be too much to expect her to admit she was wrong about those photos being fake.
Madcap
05-04-2004, 02:45 AM
<<<Capture him and he gets tried before the world.>>>
Which would give him a wonderful forum to promote his message. What a dream that would be for their cause, their spirtual leader lecturing some world court about the sins on the West - it would make him a hundred times the symbol he is now.
Let him talk. The point is that the free world gets it's equal say. Osama doesn't get his free reign, he HAS TO shut it and let the opposition speak. A trial (Tribunal?) would kick ass.
He's already won this round, even if we find him he's already elluded "the world" for almost three years. Again, I'm not saying we shouldn't find him and kill him, I'm just saying I don't think it'll matter. In my opinion the best thing that could happen would be for him to die anonymously so he'd just end up fading away. Any definate ending just heightens his prestige.
Eluding the world for three years doesn't mean much, but eluding the world for the rest of your life means a lot. Al Capone didn't, John Dillanger didn't, Billy the Kid didn't, they all became folk heroes (Cuz they got caught and we know how they died), Osama will be elevated to folk hero as well, but none of them reached the level of Robin Hood (Who actually escaped capture his whole life, whether he was one person or a composite of many as some medevalists suggest). Robin Hood became a LEGEND.
Is there even one person reading my words that has not heard of ROBIN HOOD??????
We need to catch Osama. If he must be a folk hero, there's nothing to be done. We MUST stop him being a legend, though.
I'll respond to the rest tomorrow. I'm beat.
erotictonic
05-04-2004, 04:37 AM
Holy fuckamoli. The pics could be fake, but they could be real. Who knows? I'm not going to commit to either.... I suppose I'm going to be sent hate mail now for not "supporting our troups". Face reality. Some people are capable of these acts.... and they are in Iraq right now fighting for our country. Whether the pic is real or not, I can bet that some of our soldiers have raped some Iraqi women. It goes on in war.... when these guys are trained to be violent attackers, that is what they become. It's not right to attack civilians, but some do it. To understand the mentality of someone fighting for their lives in war is impossible, unless you've been there. Get upset about it if you want, but it's not going to change reality. That's just the way I see it.
VV - I think it's ridiculous to take a stance and then because some disagree, you insult them. It's your way or the highway, eh? Last time I checked, you didn't know it all. These pics could or could not be real. It doesn't change reality when you insult people.
VenusGoddess
05-04-2004, 11:33 AM
I find it interesting how many are disgusted, sickened and ashamed of our soldiers and now it's coming out they were (possibly) under orders. I'm positive there is more to the story (as there usually is) and have learned a long time ago to not completely accept what I immediately see on the news or read in the paper.
And as usual, there will be details and information that we will never be privy to.
I find it funny that "civilians" are shocked that these soldiers may have been "under orders" to treat these POW's this way. It just doesn't happen that way. Of course, there will be those who say, "a soldier does not go against the orders of the capt., sgt., etc". There were probably quite a few soldiers over there that refused to "participate in the fun and games" and they were probably reprimanded (which we wouldn't hear about). The soldiers that did participate didn't do it because they were ordered to...they did it because it's what they WANTED to do and the "owners" let them off the leash.
Of course there is more to the story, there always is...and you can be assured that you will hear the bits and pieces that will make the government look good (at least make them look like they are appalled and "taking care of business").
VenusGoddess
05-04-2004, 11:35 AM
Anyone else getting hate e-mail from Vegasvixen? She's like some Jerry Springer guest that works themself into a frenzy and just keeps swinging at anything that moves.
Sad thing is she's too insecure and defensive to see that most of us agree with her about supporting the troops - I suppose it would be too much to expect her to admit she was wrong about those photos being fake.
LOL...unbelievable...Well, not really, but still. It's the freedom of speech she so strongly stands behind, so shut up!! LOL
Isis, what did I say that confused you?
I said a punishment. Whatever that means depends on what the government will do with them.
So what do you suggest we do with the soldiers if they are infact, american and british ones? Pat them on the back and say, "Hey man...not cool... dont do it again" ??? Nope. They should be terminated from their jobs/etc... Thats a punishment. And if its the Iraqi's? Then what? I dont think its ok to impersonate anyone. Then again, I guess pretending to be a regular flying person on the plane, and then jumping out and killing pilots, and slamming in the world trade center doesnt deserve a harsh punishment?
My point being, that whoever did it, needs to be punished. Obviously we all have opinions, and what you may consider a punishment may not be what the next person does.
HUH ??? I don't get it..... I was agreeing with your quote ???
I'm not sure how what I wrote could have expressed otherwise :-\ I'll have to go back and look....and 4 the record I think the soldiers who did this should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
edited to add- I didn't say one thing about not punishing them >:(
in fact I compared them their actions to terrorists that we r supposed to be over there to stop- not emulate..... so where u got that I don't think they should be punished is beyond me......
Geez- I've don't think I've ever been slammed by someone 4 agreeing with them b4 ::)
Santos
05-04-2004, 12:23 PM
There were probably quite a few soldiers over there that refused to "participate in the fun and games"
Yes and the abuse came to light because at least two soldiers reported it to their superiors. And it was a U.S. solider who came across a CD containing the now infamous photos and handed it over to his superiors. It is good to know that there are some Americans who know right from wrong.
From an article in the May 4 New Yorker:
The abuses became public because of the outrage of Specialist Joseph M. Darby, an M.P. Special Agent Scott Bobeck, who is a member of the Army’s Criminal Investigation Division [said] “The investigation started after SPC Darby . . . got a CD from CPL Graner. . . . He came across pictures of naked detainees.” Bobeck said that Darby “felt very bad about it and thought it was very wrong.”
The entire article is worth reading IMO
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact
sander8son
05-04-2004, 01:37 PM
i just can't get into this thread. read 3.5 pages, and i see ive got 6.5 to go. no thanks. was gonna have a long meaningless pre-amble, but ive lost all desire to type anything... ok, on with the hate:
heres my take. its a far cry to call this "torture". being stripped and positioned awkwardly or teased is nothing compared to what happnes in real american prissons.... instead of simulated anal, domestic criminals get the real deal!!! ;-) torture is inflicting physical pain, not clowning around.
these people in US run jails in iraq ARE NOT TERRORISTS. they are merely iraqi national soldiers. so stop talking about terrorists. what sucks in there case is like nazi soldiers, they dont really have much of a choice. if you dont join the party, they'll kill ya. does that make them innocent? no, but they're not terrorists. what is a terrorist anyway? its jsut someone who fights against established rule really. i'm quite fond of several terrorists personally(Washington, Adams, Revere, Jefferson, etc. etc.)
that said, fuckem. ( i like to make completely contradictory sounding posts). anyway, if you want peace in the world its fairly simple to achieve. we can start by killing 6 billion people(my personal dream).
yes, we need to get bush out of the office, but we sure as hell dont need kerry in office. but, the president is a meaningless position. the person doesn't matter. "but he picks the cabinet". No he doesn't, the party picks them, and calls all the shots. we need to overthrow our own government(goodlord, am i a terrorist? yeah, i guess).
continuing to spurt out random thoughts, i hate americans, i hate the british, i hate the arabs and i hate the israeli's. you're all a bunch of ignorant brainwashed morons. ALL of you. you just get your misinformation from different points of view. you're all "evil" and stupid. do me and the world a favor and drop dead already. i'll kill the second to last person. you can trust me to off myself, after all i am destined for the seventh level of dante's hell. seventh being violent including violent against onesself.
Rayleen
05-04-2004, 03:46 PM
HUH ??? I don't get it..... I was agreeing with your quote ???
I'm not sure how what I wrote could have expressed otherwise :-\ I'll have to go back and look....and 4 the record I think the soldiers who did this should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
Isis ~ I'm thinking Lexi just got your name confused with someones elses post ~ It happens sometimes when topics get several pages long ;)
Weluckyfew
05-04-2004, 09:35 PM
Sanderson, for all his intersting excesses, makes a great point - there are people suffering far worse in American prisons and many, many of them are there for non-violent drug offenses -- sorry, i digress ALOT on that point.
Ther NYTimes has an interview with an Iraqi who says he's one of the men in the photo (and they explain why his story seems credible) I think it will come as a surprise to no one that he says his treatment was great and all the Americans were very friendly, right up to the point where he was transferred to that one area. In fact his previous treatment had been so great that he kept making a point of seperating the overwhelming majority of his guards from the few that did him harm.
I would love to see this guy telling his story on Al Jazeera 24/7 - about the only thing we have to combat the damage done by those photos are the actual Iraqis who can testify that those soldier's actions were far, far from how the overwhelming majority of Americans treated them.
Isis, what did I say that confused you?
I said a punishment. Whatever that means depends on what the government will do with them.
So what do you suggest we do with the soldiers if they are infact, american and british ones? Pat them on the back and say, "Hey man...not cool... dont do it again" ??? Nope. They should be terminated from their jobs/etc... Thats a punishment. And if its the Iraqi's? Then what? I dont think its ok to impersonate anyone. Then again, I guess pretending to be a regular flying person on the plane, and then jumping out and killing pilots, and slamming in the world trade center doesnt deserve a harsh punishment?
My point being, that whoever did it, needs to be punished. Obviously we all have opinions, and what you may consider a punishment may not be what the next person does.
HUH ??? I don't get it..... I was agreeing with your quote ???
I'm not sure how what I wrote could have expressed otherwise :-\ I'll have to go back and look....and 4 the record I think the soldiers who did this should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
edited to add- I didn't say one thing about not punishing them >:(
in fact I compared them their actions to terrorists that we r supposed to be over there to stop- not emulate..... so where u got that I don't think they should be punished is beyond me......
Geez- I've don't think I've ever been slammed by someone 4 agreeing with them b4 ::)
LOL Im sorry if I read it wrong hun. It was way late when I did. :-[ When you quoted me, I thought you were being sarcastic saying something like, "so what? do we do the same thing?" I was tired and sleepy, and obviously read it wrong, considering how some people were getting all bent out of shape on here... ::)
So I wasnt slamming you, i thought you were saying I was being wrong for saying that those who DID do it shoulld be punished. (I admit it, and apologize)
Ok I am ready for a spanking! :bends over in front of Isis:
I hope, that whoever did it, gets a nice punishment. Firstly, for torturing the prisoners, secondly for raping the women (How the FUCK is that ok to do, regardless that its war?)
and we r supposed to be there to stop things like that not do them !!!!
our goverment is acting like terrorist's themselves :'(
Isn't there another way besides war ? I'm not very confident that we HAD to go to war..... war should be a last resort and I dont think it was veiwed that way by this administration AT ALL
:twocents:
Isis, I agree with ya here. I totally read it wrong. LOL
Uh oh, now I am afraid of Isis because I apologized and clarified it for her. ::)
polecat
05-05-2004, 01:17 AM
I tried to stay out of this thread since it has way too many political ramifications involved, but.. what the heck.
Overall, there isn't anyone here that can practically say if the pictures shown were real, fake, a hoax, etc.etc. Nobody also knows the true context, spirit, surrounding circumstance, cause->effect, or similar either. From face value, they look extraordinarily bad- but we all know that for all extremes, the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.
I think it's also fairly difficult to empathize with what happens during war. While from a comfy chair out in sunny California, I can point my finger at those pictures and say, "Golly, that's bad! How horrific!"... I may actually be participating in the same thing after months of having bullets whizzing by my head, having lost several close friends, facing mortality on an hourly basis, or witnessing horrible atrocities. I don't like to think of what normal men/women are capable of when all humanity leaves the picture, but in war- there truly is no humanity.
Well adjusted and emotionally fit individuals can be pushed over the edge. It's a simple fact. While some of us may pride ourselves in knowledge that we could never take another human life, if someone kills one of your children, family or loved ones, that cool rationality exits the picture. There is no justification for killing, but emotions rarely are rational or justified. Good people can do horrible things when pushed over the edge... things that defy their deepest underlying character. Terrorists feed upon this with knowledge that practical and rational people can be converted into cold blooded, heartless killers when they target 9-13 year olds, women and infants. It's not so much the act they performed they are interested in, it's the reaction/recoil they use to strengthen their cause.
Before anyone makes any rash assumptions, I'm not declaring this is the case with these pictures, but instead one of possibility of literally thousands that could be the case. As news/propaganda generally only reports about 5% for any given headline, the other 95% is left to assumption. Where you sit on the political fence is what dictates how you fill-in the other 95%. Hence the debate ensues.
I can understand vegasvixen's frustration level. People here have a tendency to read 5% of a given post and blow that 5% out of context and turn it into something vastly different from it's original meaning in order to further their cause/opinion. It doesn't justify taking a mean and nasty stance, but I can empathize with the feeling. There's nothing constructive that can come from that sort of tactic, so it's better to just leave it be and move on, in my opinion.
Ok I am ready for a spanking! :bends over in front of Isis:
I don't know if I could bring myself to leave handprints on your cute little butt ..... but if u insist or just really like to be spanked well then I'll reconsider ;D
Thanks again for clearing that up !
Tigerlilly
05-07-2004, 11:10 AM
Is anyone watching the Armed Service Cmte Hearing right now?
They said there is video that will be coming out and that the worst is yet to come. :yikes:
They also said that many of the Pentagon and the Pres. didn't even know of this issue untilthe media released the photos. I don't think I buy that :-\ It was also said that other Gov. persons knew from all the way back last year !
Whatever trust that had been built with the people of Iraq is gone and likely will never be able to be rebuilt.
This is a result of the breakdown in the chain of command and since Bush is the Commander in Chief, it starts with him . I am praying that this will be that final straw to vote Bush out and get a new administration up and running asap. The longer he and his administartion are in office the higher the threat level becomes for all of us.
So let me ask this.... if Bush is NOT re-elected, do you guys think the threats will stop? I sure dont, cause when Clinton was pres, the world trade center was bombed as well...
?
Rhiannon
05-07-2004, 07:25 PM
So let me ask this.... if Bush is NOT re-elected, do you guys think the threats will stop? I sure dont, cause when Clinton was pres, the world trade center was bombed as well...
?
Exactly Lexi.. It doesn't matter who we elect. There will always be threats, and there will always be problems. Hopefully they won't be as severe as 9/11. But, things will happen. It's impossible to stop ALL of the terrorists. They breed like freakin rabbits.
TigerLilly, I watched that whole thing on TV today (They pre-empted my soaps, those bastiches LOL).
But anyway, I watched it. I do like what one man said... "We never received even ONE apology from those responsible for 9/11." They also went into detail about how the US is so much different than everyone else, and above the hatred, that we felt it necessary to apologize for the treatment of the prisoners. While I agree, that we never received an apology from them, it doesn't mean the prisoners aren't due one from us. If we truly are above it all, we should know that two wrongs don't make a right.
Totally off-topic but kind of on-topic... I was at the grocery store tonight, getting my lil dahling's weekly supplies, and as I stood in line, I saw a family pass pushing their cart. They were Middle-Eastern. I use that term, because I don't exactly know what the PC term would be. Anyway.. The woman was dressed in full burqa, as was her daughter who was in the seat of the shopping cart. The husband and son (about 5) were walking alongside of them. I smiled at the kids and waved, because they were simply adorable, and I'm like that. I was totally repulsed when I heard not 1, but 2 different people in line, mumble racial slurs as the family passed. Apparently it was loud enough for the woman to hear, as it was the only time she looked up from her child. I immediately got pissed off, and mumbled something to the ignorant asses who made the comments, not so quietly. They stood there stunned, and didn't say another word. The highlight of my night though, was when I was packing my groceries into the car. The man walked out of the store and up to my car. He said only two words.. "Thank You.", and walked away. I'm still fuming at how ignorant people can be, though. My blood's still boiling. I can imagine that the family gets that anywhere they go.
That's my little rant for the day. Sorry.. LOL
SCGirl
05-07-2004, 09:11 PM
i just can't get into this thread. read 3.5 pages, and i see ive got 6.5 to go. no thanks. was gonna have a long meaningless pre-amble, but ive lost all desire to type anything... ok, on with the hate:
Same here!
All I have to say is this.....watch our court system at work. REALLY watch it though....all of the mistrials, the objections, evidence, testing, paying off of witnesses and jurors.....it's AMAZING how the law, such a "civilized" invention that we stake our entire lives in, could be manipulated! It really makes me sick. I watch a lot of court shows during the day. After watching hours upon hours of these over the course of this year, I've come to notice just how uncivilized we are. Ok, so it's against the law to go over and beat the crap out of your neighbor no matter HOW much he deserves it (I've been having major conflicts in my apt. complex which is what made me realize all of this). This guy taped dog shit to my door and then left a "civilized" note saying that I have to pick up my dog's poop cuz he doesn't want to have to smell it (even though he lives on the 2nd floor!). What does this have to do with the topic at hand, you ask? It's simple. We think we're civilized by keeping calm, using niceties, and taking things to court for "justice." That's a load of crap! If you offend me or I offend you, I think it's MUCH more civilized to take it outside and we can beat the crap out of each other. Why? Because the law is not infalible. Courts cost money. "Justice" is NEVER really "fair." It's shit like this that brings innocent people into to arguments they don't belong in. If Bush hates Saddam, put them in a cage and hand them both a knife. Don't put my life, or someone else's, on the line to fight YOUR battle. If I have a problem with someone, I'm GLAD when the "law" steps the hell out of the way and I can just go at them. Why should anyone or anything interveine between two consenting adults with a score to settle? You wanna fight....I wanna fight.....let US settle it!
I guess, after all that, my point is.....make ALL fights personal. You want to defend yourself--do it. You want to protect your home--do it. Don't let ideology dictate you you fight or why. If you have a personal beef with the Iraqis, fine, go beat the shit out of them....I'm sure they'll do the same with you. However, leave all of the rest of us out of it! Countries should never go to war.....let individuals fight for their own personal rights and freedoms. Then shit like this wouldn't happen. If you want to fight, that your choice....but accept the consequences. Don't pick a fight and cry when you get a bloody nose!
I'm all for reinstating Natural Selection for the Human Race!!! Give everyone a gun and 6 bullets....those left standing are the ones that deserve to be!
I made a rule for myself. I no longer talk about diet, politics, money or religion. These are subjects that people feel very strongly about, and I don't care to hear their idiotic, ill-informend rantings....
Rhiannon
05-07-2004, 09:43 PM
I'm all for reinstating Natural Selection for the Human Race!!! Give everyone a gun and 6 bullets....those left standing are the ones that deserve to be!
Hahahaha! Right on, Girl!
Where do I sign up?
:dance:
sander8son
05-07-2004, 09:44 PM
ryan, somethign tells me, i wont miss your idiotic, ill-informend rantings on said subjects either.
SCGirl, that was awesome! great post. im all for it. i dont really believe in countries, so that was right up my ally
montythegeek
05-07-2004, 09:54 PM
I'm all for reinstating Natural Selection for the Human Race!!! Give everyone a gun and 6 bullets....those left standing are the ones that deserve to be!
Hahahaha! Right on, Girl!
Where do I sign up?
:dance:
The ones surviving will be thearms merchants, morticians, the grave diggers, and the suckups. I will take law and peace 90% of the time over this option.
Tigerlilly
05-08-2004, 11:25 AM
So let me ask this.... if Bush is NOT re-elected, do you guys think the threats will stop? I sure dont, cause when Clinton was pres, the world trade center was bombed as well...
Good question Lexi !
No I don't think the threats will stop. There has terrorism my entire lifetime.It's nothing new.
I do think Bush has been making the threat to the US worse and worse and getting him out of office will help in the immediate.
Madcap
05-08-2004, 01:22 PM
Terrorism has existed since the dawn of human history, in one form or another.
Probably since before that, as well. I once watched a documentary on Chimps, hosted by Primatologist Jane Goodall, where two clans of chimps actually went to war against each other, and geez was it brutal. The winners didn't rest until every single member of the losing clan was wiped out, right down to the babies.
That was disturbing, but it does give a good impression as to where the instinct to war comes from. Probably been in us since a time before we were strictly 'human.'
VenusGoddess
05-08-2004, 03:12 PM
So let me ask this.... if Bush is NOT re-elected, do you guys think the threats will stop? I sure dont, cause when Clinton was pres, the world trade center was bombed as well...
?
Exactly Lexi.. It doesn't matter who we elect. There will always be threats, and there will always be problems. Hopefully they won't be as severe as 9/11. But, things will happen. It's impossible to stop ALL of the terrorists. They breed like freakin rabbits.
TigerLilly, I watched that whole thing on TV today (They pre-empted my soaps, those bastiches LOL).
But anyway, I watched it. I do like what one man said... "We never received even ONE apology from those responsible for 9/11." They also went into detail about how the US is so much different than everyone else, and above the hatred, that we felt it necessary to apologize for the treatment of the prisoners. While I agree, that we never received an apology from them, it doesn't mean the prisoners aren't due one from us. If we truly are above it all, we should know that two wrongs don't make a right.
Totally off-topic but kind of on-topic... I was at the grocery store tonight, getting my lil dahling's weekly supplies, and as I stood in line, I saw a family pass pushing their cart. They were Middle-Eastern. I use that term, because I don't exactly know what the PC term would be. Anyway.. The woman was dressed in full burqa, as was her daughter who was in the seat of the shopping cart. The husband and son (about 5) were walking alongside of them. I smiled at the kids and waved, because they were simply adorable, and I'm like that. I was totally repulsed when I heard not 1, but 2 different people in line, mumble racial slurs as the family passed. Apparently it was loud enough for the woman to hear, as it was the only time she looked up from her child. I immediately got pissed off, and mumbled something to the ignorant asses who made the comments, not so quietly. They stood there stunned, and didn't say another word. The highlight of my night though, was when I was packing my groceries into the car. The man walked out of the store and up to my car. He said only two words.. "Thank You.", and walked away. I'm still fuming at how ignorant people can be, though. My blood's still boiling. I can imagine that the family gets that anywhere they go.
That's my little rant for the day. Sorry.. LOL
It does suck that we (or the rest of the world, for that matter) will never receive an apology for the WTC. It just won't happen. You cannot expect rational behavior from irrational people.
That being said...just because they have never apologized for anything they have done, does not mean that we "deserve" to get them back or to not apologize for our wrong-doings. Two wrongs don't make a right.
As for Bush...he doesn't deserve to be re-elected. He's done nothing for our nation except make us look even worse to the other countries. Alaska is now being raped...I mean mined and logged...our National Forests are only protected against the wildlife that live there. And, besides...Bush isn't the one running the show. He's not got the intelligence for that...it's Cheney (not like he's any more intelligent, just more belligerent) Rumsfeld, and anyone else who has half a brain and is willing to make a decision.
Its funny how a lot of people stand behind Bush. It's like they voted for him and now they are just ashamed that they did and don't want to admit it. "Sure...he's letting the National Forests get logged...but, you know...we just need more land to build houses. Uh, yeah...and we still have about 30 trees left anyways...that's plenty." Morons.
Madcap
05-08-2004, 11:32 PM
To some people Bush is some kind of Messiah. The guy can do no wrong in some folks eyes. That I just don't get.
To some people Bush is some kind of Messiah. The guy can do no wrong in some folks eyes. That I just don't get.
LOL and to some he does EVERYTHING wrong, no matter what he does.
But this is something that will always happen no matter who is president.
NinaDaisy
05-09-2004, 02:36 AM
To some people Bush is some kind of Messiah. The guy can do no wrong in some folks eyes. That I just don't get.
Bush believes he was ordained by God Himself to be the president. I'm serious.
It's not just Bush, he's surrounded by a pack of liars who all stand to gain financially from this fiasco of a presidency of his. I don't understand how even the most basic of facts that's exposed by the mainstream media - like all the Halliburton contracts our gov't has in Iraq, and Cheney was their CEO and is still a major stockholder - and people just aren't even fazed by it! This country is so damn insular, like if things don't happen to us, they just don't happen. It seems that as long as "Amurricans" have their SUV's, get to go the mall, TGI Friday's, and watch Friends reruns, they're happy. Nobody and nothing else exists.
The government admits to rounding up way more Iraqi's than called for when an incident happens, and innocent people get torn from their families in massive witch hunts. No wonder the world hates our guts.
OUR COUNTRY DOES THINGS THAT WE THINK ONLY OTHER COUNTRIES DO! WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!
Sitri
05-11-2004, 09:16 AM
Wow, looks we all have our energy up to level. I'm feeling a little bastardly today so forgive me in advance.. >:(
I do not support or condone what happened in the Iraqi prison, but I think we need to put it in perspective before we blow the world up over it.
Interesting I have a friend who actually came from Iran in the early 80's. He has a great story as to how he and some friends were standing in from of the embassy in 1978 as the students went over the wall and the whole story about how he fought against the Iraq migrated to Turkey and ended up as a student in the U.S. Interesting how he also referred to the terrorists as "crazy ragheads". Sort of shocked me as being politically incorrect, but hey, he can't at least be accused of being a bigot....Just a nice guy who happened to be born in Iran.
I guess it is easy to be offended by the pictures, but let's put them in perspective... I've seen worse harrassment on Fear Factor. And, I hope that none of you have had to stand in front of someone naked while people pointed fingers at you. That can lead to psychological scarring at its worst.
I think that perhaps all strip clubs should have a UN guard in front of them and constant monitoring. Brutal treatment!
And I am sure we have all heard stories about prisoners in our own prisions who are subjected to worse than this.
Our basis of indignation is out of context. Give me the human pyramid please.
Our real issue is going to war with the moral philosophy of the new testament or a beauty pagent (World Peace for everyone) and accomplishing it with the wrath of God in the old testament and aMutually Assured Destruction (MAD) strategy.
It doesn't add up. And we have gone to war like this with just about every previous president.
And when people start calling people names, you sort of create a name for yourself...huh.
Weluckyfew
05-11-2004, 11:33 AM
<<<<I guess it is easy to be offended by the pictures, but let's put them in perspective... I've seen worse harrassment on Fear Factor. And, I hope that none of you have had to stand in front of someone naked while people pointed fingers at you. That can lead to psychological scarring at its worst. >>>>
lessee...anal rape with a broomstick, attacked by dogs, at least one man beaten to death plus strong allegations of guards shooting unarmed prisoners, the Red Cross protesting treatment of prisoners for two years...sounds like a bit more than reality TV. Before you judge these as trivial read the New Yorker articles or read the leaked Red Cross report on the nature and amount of the abuses. Listen to the testimony where Rumsfeld said that there are more photos and videos yet to be released that show "sadistic" and "inhuman" conduct.
And even just addressing the humiliation/intimidation factor, if Iraqis treated out prisoners like that and photos were released to the world people here would be calling for Baghdad to be nuked.
<<<<And I am sure we have all heard stories about prisoners in our own prisions who are subjected to worse than this.>>>>
I agree, but then I think that's a crime against humanity too.
Remember this is wartime, and we invaded their country. Yes, with stated noble intentions, but as an occupying force you are held to a very high standard, especially when you go in preaching morality and human rights. In the photos where faces can be seen look at how terrified these men are, and the Pentagon is admitting that most of these men were never charged with a crime or even interrogated!
Sitri
05-11-2004, 11:46 AM
I agree, but then I think that's a crime against humanity too.
Remember this is wartime, and we invaded their country. Yes, with stated noble intentions, but as an occupying force you are held to a very high standard, especially when you go in preaching morality and human rights. In the photos where faces can be seen look at how terrified these men are, and the Pentagon is admitting that most of these men were never charged with a crime or even interrogated!
And THAT is where you and I AGREE. My point is yours "especially when you go in preaching Morality and human rights".
War is war and when people are killing people you can't do it with morality! If you are going to accept any war then you have to buy into the immorality. You can't get half pregnant.
And both sides scramble out of the hole looking for a "higher" ground.
But some Republicans charged that the prisoner abuse scandal was being exploited for partisan gain.
“I'm probably not the only one up at this table that is more outraged by the outrage than we are by the treatment,” Sen. James Inhofe, R-Okla., said during the hearing.
“These prisoners, you know, they’re not there for traffic violations,” he said. “If they’re in cellblock 1-A or 1-B, these prisoners, they’re murderers, they’re terrorists, they’re insurgents. Many of them probably have American blood on their hands, and here we’re so concerned about the treatment of those individuals.”
Policy is, "Don't ask, Don't tell". Someone should have mentioned not to take pics.
Rayleen
05-11-2004, 01:35 PM
Gee I wonder if VegasVixen still thinks they pics are fakes ;D
Madcap
05-11-2004, 01:53 PM
Oh God. It starts.
THESE FUCKING SCUMBAGS!
Details of killing stun Berg's family
Tuesday, May 11, 2004 Posted: 1940 GMT (0340 HKT)
WEST CHESTER, Pennsylvania (AP) -- The family of a businessman who was beheaded after he was captured in Iraq cried Tuesday when they learned details of his videotaped death.
A video posted Tuesday on an al Qaeda-linked Web site showed the beheading of Nick Berg, 26, of West Chester, Pennsylvania, whose family last heard from him April 9. It said the execution was carried out by an al Qaeda-affiliated group to avenge the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers.
Berg's family said earlier Tuesday that they were told by the U.S. State Department that Berg was found dead near a highway overpass in Baghdad on Saturday.
When told of the video by an Associated Press reporter, Berg's father, Michael, and his two siblings hugged and cried. They knew he had been decapitated, but didn't know the details of the killing.
"I knew he was decapitated before. That manner is preferable to a long and torturous death. But I didn't want it to become public," Michael Berg said.
Berg's mother, Suzanne Berg, said her son was in Iraq as an independent businessman to help rebuild communication antennas. Berg owned a communications equipment company, Prometheus Methods Tower Service Inc., she said.
For the rest click the hyperlink below...
Pandora's box is gaping...
The original message i was going to post had a lot more to it, but that was an AoLoser article, so it was copyrighted, but it had some details of the videotape these bastards released... including a message to the 'Wives and Mothers of America.'
This just strengthens me belief that we need to be handing AL-QAIDA their asses, rather that bumfucking around on patroll in a country that hates us for being there.
Brittany
05-11-2004, 02:28 PM
Well.
Having had a father who VOLUNTEERED for Vietnam, a grandfather who volunteered for WW2, served on D-day...went there with over 90 troops, and at the end of the day their numbers were in the teens....sigh. Let me tell all of you, that I basically grew up in the army, and have many friends that are still in the army.
The vast majority of U.S. soldiers are just like you and me. They wouldn't do anything that was against the law, and they certainly wouldn't smile and point as someone was being humiliated, and most certainly would let their superiors know if they saw anyone who was being abused.
I just think it's sad that the media is tending to lump all U.S. troops together now. I hardly heard anything at all about how those U.S. soldier's bodies were mutilated, or how some of the hostages over there have been killed, but I'm sure hearing a lot about what happened in the Iraqi jail. Not that this justifies what was happening in that jail...but it may have been one of the precursors for the type of behavior that we saw in those photographs.
The same thing happened in Vietnam after they started torturing and mutilating U.S. soldiers over there. Some soldiers lost focus completely and began believing that every Vietnamese soldier was a torturer, a mutilator, criminal, etc. They were also angry and resentful that noone seemed to care or wanted to hear about the atrocities being commited against U.S. troops. People who were a little weak/tired/burned out from being over there, not having the right support structure while they were over there (or anywhere for that matter), or who didn't have a resposible, respectful, or upstanding chain of command....a few of those guys in Vietnam were said to have done some pretty bad things too. Now while not all of the soldiers who were "missing" these things began acting badly, some did. (Lt. Calley?).
So based on this...do I think those guards in Iraq depicted in those photos deserve to be punished? Hell yeah, I do. I want them to go to prison. And on the way there you can bet that they will be praying to God and hoping that they won't get treated the same way they treated the prisoners in Iraq. Their excuse that they were just following orders is reminiscent of what the Nazi guards at the concentration camps gave. Ugh. Some orders aren't meant to be followed regardless of the consequences this would bring upon yourself.
So let's all keep in mind that most U.S. troops are going through absolute hell over there right now. And like my Grandfather, they will still be waking up more than half a century later in the middle of the night screaming. And most of these soldiers that are going through hell right now are GOOD people. We should still support them, and respect them. They haven't done anything wrong.
I am reminded of Vietnam when I turn on my T.V. now these days...all of the soldiers are being lumped together, and I think it's a shame. I also think it's a shame that none of the guard's chain of command is getting as much press. In my mind, they need to be bearing some of this responsibility too...seeing as how this behavior went unnoticed for some time.
Madcap
05-11-2004, 02:41 PM
Brittany~
My Gramp and Dad volunteeres for their respective wars, as well. My dad did four tours in 'nam. My Gramp told me some scary shit but none of it compares to what my dad told me about Vietnam.
My Dad is still mentally kicked from that war. He's, now, a Bandito. A One percenter bike club brother out of the Houston chapter. He's got literal tombstones in his eyes. I can only get him to be my dad when he has beer in him, other than that he's a concrete block.
Vietnam did that. He learned how to be like that in 'nam and never forgot it. I listen to the drunken stories he tells and it shakes me, and not all of them are from Vietnam. Some involve shooting people in Mexico over drugs.
War is hell. And sometimes you can never leave.
But we are up against a merciless enemy. They take what was done to combatants (Hideous as it was) and they then cut the head off a non-combatant!!! Had they blown up a few Mariens i would have understood, not approved, but at least understood (Marienes at least knew the deal when they signed up), but civillians? Some bricklayer (or whatever)? Start attacking average jane and Joe and i have issue.
Weluckyfew
05-11-2004, 03:29 PM
<<<They take what was done to combatants (Hideous as it was) and they then cut the head off a non-combatant!!! Had they blown up a few Mariens i would have understood, not approved, but at least understood (Marienes at least knew the deal when they signed up), but civillians? Some bricklayer (or whatever)? Start attacking average jane and Joe and i have issue.>>>
with all due respect, bullshit. This guy went to Iraq on his own, he had a lot more choice than those soldiers did. I don't view a soldiers death as any less of an injustice.
By the way, not that it matters to this discussion, but those Iraqi prisoners weren't combatants, most were released without charges or even an interrogation. We arrest anyone suspicious and sort it out later.
<<<“I'm probably not the only one up at this table that is more outraged by the outrage than we are by the treatment,” Sen. James Inhofe, R-Okla., said during the hearing.
“These prisoners, you know, they’re not there for traffic violations,” he said. “If they’re in cellblock 1-A or 1-B, these prisoners, they’re murderers, they’re terrorists, they’re insurgents. Many of them probably have American blood on their hands, and here we’re so concerned about the treatment of those individuals.” >>>
Sitri, not sure if you posted this agreeing with it or not, but it's not true. Many of these prisoners were rounded up in large sweeps and have since been released. And for anyone who thinks their treatment could be justified as long as we got information, we never did this to captured germans and I guarantee they were much more of a threat to the future of our nation than a handful of terorrists.
Djoser
05-11-2004, 03:34 PM
No nation, race, or creed, has a monopoly on cruelty to the enemy during war. The USA practiced genocide and abhorrent cruelty to Native Americans as an integral part of the creation of this nation.
Read about King Philips War, the most devastating war--in terms of casualties in relation to population--in American history. Both sides were guilty of abominable savagery.
http://www.mayflowerfamilies.com/enquirer/native.htm
Well, now we are much more civilized, right? Most of us may well be. But ask the black guy that was dragged to death behind a pick up truck a couple of years ago. There are plenty of people right here in the US of A who are fully capable of torture and murder if they thought they could get away with it.
And if there hadn't been some moron dumb enough to take pictures, these swine would have gotten away with it. The outrage over the outrage proves this. Without photographic evidence, reports of mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners would have been greeted with derision and accusations of unpatriotic sentiment.
Madcap
05-11-2004, 03:56 PM
with all due respect, bullshit. This guy went to Iraq on his own, he had a lot more choice than those soldiers did. I don't view a soldiers death as any less of an injustice.
Those Soldiers were also armed and could fight back. Some contractor isn't and can't. Hitting the easy targets won't win them my support or pity. Only my wrath.
By the way, not that it matters to this discussion, but those Iraqi prisoners weren't combatants, most were released without charges or even an interrogation.
Are their HEADS beoing held aloft? Were they decapitated?
No, no pity for this. Only wrath.