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S4L
05-11-2004, 04:49 PM
Some companies here are sending contractors to Iraq for as much as $2000 a day. For that kind of pay you can't be suprised when there is danger involved.

Brittany
05-11-2004, 04:51 PM
By the way....here is where the pics of Iraqi women being raped (that I have seen on the internet) seem to have originated from. Kinda twisted and perverted.

http://www.sexinwar.com/

The woman's face on the site and in the photos that I have seen is the SAME. It would appear as though the person/people took the photos off of this porn site, and used them for anti - U.S. propaganda purposes. Kinda twisted and perverted as well...sigh.

Madcap
05-11-2004, 04:52 PM
If you don't have a gun you are a noncombatant and only a total bastard coward will threaten you with one.

"Gee, please don't hurt me. I want the easy targets. The Marienes will kick my ass... I want someone who won't shoot back"

No pity on them, only scorn.

S4L
05-11-2004, 05:10 PM
"If you don't have a gun you are a noncombatant and only a total bastard coward will threaten you with one."

Like the marines did to the women and kids in Iraq?

Lexi
05-11-2004, 08:50 PM
I dont have any more pity for anything. (or maybe cause I am severly PMSing. LOL
In all seriousness, I think that they are the biggest fucking cowards ever. Sure... kill the contractor. They are the biggest pussies by far, and I hope they are blown to smithereens. (sp?)

We were all mad about the torture our soldiers did, but these were fighting against US and torturing our own. Im sorry but my view has changed a bit. May change again when the hormones get back to normal but as of right now, I think if they are the enemy we should fight back.

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

polecat
05-11-2004, 09:27 PM
By the way, not that it matters to this discussion, but those Iraqi prisoners weren't combatants, most were released without charges or even an interrogation. We arrest anyone suspicious and sort it out later.
I was just curious how long you've been back in the USA from your trip to Iraq to interrogate and investigate the status of these alleged Iraqi detained 'combatants'... You seen quite sure to know the status of them.

Unfortunately, there isn't any determination that can be rationally made. NPR/liberal media sources say they are men, women and rounded up civilians without any charges. More conservative media sources say they were armed, suspicious or otherwise involved hence their detainment. When entering a city of several hundred Iraqi citizens, I'm finding it hard to believe the Marines just round up all 900-1000 of them. There is obviously some selective basis for who they arrest/detain.

The point being, nobody can rationally or objectively declare the innocence or guilt of these people. There is a wealth of sources that support both premises, so it comes down to whether you are a CNN/BBC.UK/NPR fan or otherwise...

Rhiannon
05-11-2004, 10:12 PM
Aren't woman and children hopping on the suicide bomber bandwagon now?


Yes, they are, Sapphire. I just saw some video and read a news story about it. Disgusting.

Lexi, I'm with ya, girl.

Madcap
05-11-2004, 11:24 PM
You know what? I don't really care about some guy getting led by a leash around the neck anymore. His head is still attached to his neck.

Rhiannon
05-11-2004, 11:41 PM
Madcap... :cheers:

Lexi
05-12-2004, 12:35 AM
I tried to watch the video and I clicked it off when I saw them knee him in his head and grab him by his hair.
I am seriously SICK to my stomach. I can not watch it...

Dear Godddddddd :( :'( :'(

madgrad
05-12-2004, 12:48 AM
Two Points to remember.

1. Iraq under Saddam Huiesein, had rapists on his prison payroll--which is unique among the world and the surrounding Arab countrys.

2. The following equation happened:

MP unit from West Virginia/ w 18 and 19 year olds + Goverment Contractors in Charge+ MP's removed from under MP Control to Miitary Intellegence Control= Bad News Headlines were seeing now.

Anybody, in the Military with common sense could've seen this train wreck coming right away the first day in prison with this combination in charge.

No suprise here.

S4L
05-12-2004, 06:15 AM
I found this odd.
"On April 5, the Bergs filed suit in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military in Iraq."
There could be a lot more to this.
http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/politics/8621773.htm

05-12-2004, 07:00 AM
You know what? I don't really care about some guy getting led by a leash around the neck anymore. His head is still attached to his neck.
YEP!!!!

S4L
05-12-2004, 07:55 AM
It's funny how a video can make people hate a race of people. This takes place in the U.S everyday. How many murders were there in the U.S. last year? The news reports Americans decapitating others all the time. Mothers killing babies to keep a boyfriend, drowning their own kids etc.. John Walsh's son was found decapitated. When it happens close to home we pass it off as the person being mental or sick, we say it's not the "norm". Who is more innocent than a kid? This video was shown and we blame an entire country for the actions of a few. We do this all the time. It's our bigotry and ignorance. When 9/11 happened we did the same thing. We blamed those brown raghead bastards for the actions of a few. Remember Timmothy McVey? We didn't blame the whites or go to war with Michigan. What he did was far worse. Timmothy McVey killed his own people on American soil. And again we said he was just some sicko. It helped us sleep at night.

sander8son
05-12-2004, 08:19 AM
1) atleast mcvey hit a government target.

2) all humans are insane and should be wiped off the face of the earth.

3) when an american kills another american, its usually not solely because the victim was an american as is the case here. Theres usually something more to the story. i'm sorry, but as much as i hate this country (US), its safe to say, i hope they nuke the shit out the world. killing everyone is really the only solution. sure a handfull of swell individuals will die, but most people are scum.

Lexi
05-12-2004, 09:36 AM
It's funny how a video can make people hate a race of people. This takes place in the U.S everyday. How many murders were there in the U.S. last year? The news reports Americans decapitating others all the time. Mothers killing babies to keep a boyfriend, drowning their own kids etc.. John Walsh's son was found decapitated. When it happens close to home we pass it off as the person being mental or sick, we say it's not the "norm". Who is more innocent than a kid? This video was shown and we blame an entire country for the actions of a few. We do this all the time. It's our bigotry and ignorance. When 9/11 happened we did the same thing. We blamed those brown raghead bastards for the actions of a few. Remember Timmothy McVey? We didn't blame the whites or go to war with Michigan. What he did was far worse. Timmothy McVey killed his own people on American soil. And again we said he was just some sicko. It helped us sleep at night.



Who said they hated the entire race? Not me.
Excuse me, but I thought we were in a WAR, where you KILL your enemy?

And what pisses me off of the little cowards who killed Nick was that he was TIED UP and there were 5 scumbags who were armed and hiding their ugly, DIRTY faces. Then they killed him... Yeah he's not as innocent as a child, but he didnt deserve to die that way...at the hands of little bitches. >:(

No one is anymore ignorant than the Iraqi extremists

S4L
05-12-2004, 09:37 AM
There could be more to the story? The family claims it was the Americans that were holding him. He was questioned about why he was over there and they claim he had no affiliation to the coalition.
This will give Bush the push he needs to get more money for the "War" and get him re-elected.

Weluckyfew
05-12-2004, 10:18 AM
By the way, not that it matters to this discussion, but those Iraqi prisoners weren't combatants, most were released without charges or even an interrogation. We arrest anyone suspicious and sort it out later.
I was just curious how long you've been back in the USA from your trip to Iraq to interrogate and investigate the status of these alleged Iraqi detained 'combatants'... You seen quite sure to know the status of them.

Unfortunately, there isn't any determination that can be rationally made. NPR/liberal media sources say they are men, women and rounded up civilians without any charges. More conservative media sources say they were armed, suspicious or otherwise involved hence their detainment. When entering a city of several hundred Iraqi citizens, I'm finding it hard to believe the Marines just round up all 900-1000 of them. There is obviously some selective basis for who they arrest/detain.

The point being, nobody can rationally or objectively declare the innocence or guilt of these people. There is a wealth of sources that support both premises, so it comes down to whether you are a CNN/BBC.UK/NPR fan or otherwise...


Sorry Polecat, you're quite right, if I haven't been to Iraq i can't know anything about what's going on there - for that matter how do I know there really is an "Iraq", supposedly right next to a place with almost EXACTLY the same name, "Iran." The whole thing sounds pretty fishy.


I didn't mean to imply that they were just rounding people up at random - but as you noted, "suspicious" activity can get you arrested. The military doesn't take any chances, when in doubt they arrest and search and let the authorities sort it out (understandably so when you're dealing with a guerrilla insurgency.)
:

LONDON (Reuters) - A former U.S. interrogator at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib jail says that many of its prisoners are innocent Iraqis, picked up at random by U.S. troops and questioned by underqualified intelligence officers.

Former military intelligence officer Torin Nelson said in an interview with the Guardian newspaper on Friday many of the detainees at Abu Ghraib were "innocent of any acts against the coalition".

"I've read reports from capturing units where the capturing unit wrote, 'the target was not at home. The neighbour came out to see what was going on and we grabbed him'," Nelson said.

Nelson, who served as a contractor at Abu Ghraib last year, said abuses were partly a result of an over-reliance on private firms so eager to meet demand for their services that they sent staff ill-prepared to deal with intelligence work.

"They're under so much pressure to fill slots quickly... if you're in such a hurry to get bodies, you end up with cooks and truck drivers doing intelligence work," Nelson told the paper.

The innocence of some detainees made them more likely to be abused because interrogators refused to believe they had been rounded up arbitrarily and regarded them as "tough targets" to be broken, he said.

by ROBERT MORAN, Knight-Ridder Tribune News
May 5th, 2004


May 5, 2004, 7:06AM

Iraqi prisoners released at gravel pit after long, hot ride

By ROBERT MORAN
Knight-Ridder Tribune News
RESOURCES

TIKRIT, Iraq -- Scores of prisoners released from Abu Ghraib prison Tuesday were forced to take a nearly five-hour trip through central Iraq on three hot, rickety buses escorted by U.S. military Humvees before being deposited without explanation at a gravel quarry near Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit.

This from Janruary 7, 2004 BBC
The US-led coalition in Iraq plans to release 506 prisoners, with the first batch of 100 to be freed on Thursday.
The top US administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, said it was a goodwill gesture aimed at reconciliation.
Those released "must renounce violence", Mr Bremer told reporters, adding it was "not for those with blood-stained hands". ...

At least 10,000 prisoners are being held in Iraq by the US-led coalition, including almost 4,000 members of an anti-Iran rebel group.

For months I've been reading stories about the large number of Iraqis we were holding, there have been many protests by family members of those detained and I have repeatedly read interviews, in a variety of sources, with Iraqis who were arrested then released.

tell me, how many of your "conservative" news sources have dealt with specifics i.e. how many Iraqis have been charged, how many released? I do not claim that NPR, NYTimes, BBC or other sources are perfect, but i guarantee you'll read a lot more "pro-war" views in those places than you will "anti-war" views on Fox, Washington Times, etc. I guess according to Fox news that poor American was beheaded when he was crushed by the wreaths of flowers that grateful Iraqis were showering on Americans...wasn't that the party line not long ago?

Weluckyfew
05-12-2004, 10:22 AM
You know what? I don't really care about some guy getting led by a leash around the neck anymore. His head is still attached to his neck.
YEP!!!!



RIGHT ON!!! Who cares what we do, as long as we're not as bad as they are!!!!!

Sorry the other 700 Americans who died weren't nice enough to do it for the camera, maybe then you'd spare a little righteous indignation for their deaths too.

Lexi
05-12-2004, 03:58 PM
For the record, no one is saying that the other 700 deaths are not important. Obviously they were alive once, too. The fact of the matter is that these sicko's decided to tape this disgusting death as if to show that they are "strong" or "tough" but everyone knows they are COWARDS! Hiding behind masks, cuffing the guy. Gimme a break...they are just as bad as the KKK. Pussies who dont show their face but think they are all "tough and mean"

Farrah_Holiday
05-12-2004, 04:14 PM
All I can say is wow !

While I don't agree with the American getting beheaded. Is that grounds to condem a WHOLE race or an entire religion ?

Madcap
05-12-2004, 04:17 PM
Actually a good percentage of Iraqi people are pretty horrified by this as well.

Farrah_Holiday
05-12-2004, 04:23 PM
You know what? I don't really care about some guy getting led by a leash around the neck anymore. His head is still attached to his neck.
YEP!!!!



RIGHT ON!!! Who cares what we do, as long as we're not as bad as they are!!!!!

Sorry the other 700 Americans who died weren't nice enough to do it for the camera, maybe then you'd spare a little righteous indignation for their deaths too.





Amen ! 2 wrongs do not make a right. I have seen pictures of children with their heads blown off or worse part of their head missing. None of these children were prisoners of war or soldiers. I pray that the killing will stop on both sides. But I know it won't. Not as long as the hatred continues on and for both sides ! >:(

vegasvixen1
05-12-2004, 04:33 PM
TO LUCKYFEW: ITS MARINES NOT MARIENES. you are very welcome. ;)

vegasvixen1
05-12-2004, 04:38 PM
sapphire: what is your little quote about me going to japan supposed to mean??? why are u all so terrified of what i think and of having someone on this board that has their own opinions and doesnt always follow the majority around like a dependent little blind sheep?

sander8son
05-12-2004, 04:50 PM
Amen ! 2 wrongs do not make a right. I have seen pictures of children with their heads blown off or worse part of their head missing. None of these children were prisoners of war or soldiers. I pray that the killing will stop on both sides. But I know it won't. Not as long as the hatred continues on and for both sides ! >:(


two wrongs dont make a right? i hate that phrase. think of how stupid it is. does one wrong make a right? NO. does two? some would say yes, some would say no, but its certainly more Just and Right than allowing one wrong and preventing retribution.

What about multiple wrongs being perpetrated by one side on the other? is that right? ofcorse not. sometimes, in order to prevent further wrongs you need to stand up for yourself and commit them against the ones who've wronged you.

everyone who thinks peace solves violence has clearly never been surrounded by voilence.


I pray that the killing will stop on both sides. But I know it won't. Not as long as the hatred continues on and for both sides ! >:(

the only way to prevent the hatred of one on the other is to remove one group. It's already "them vs. us', they're not going to back down. why not just actually go to war and finish off the freakin enemy for a change? everyone, the soldiers, the old men, the mothers, the children, everyone needs to go.

if you remove the enemy, you can no longer hate them, and they can no longer hate you. the more we all pussy around and try to peacefully solve conflicts the longer the misery will continue on for both sides. suck it up and live (or die) in misery for a generation and provide happiness for future generations. I'm sick of everyone always pushing problems onto the next generation. all it does is snowball. take some responsability and sacrafise yourself(the pressent) for the future. the pressent already sucks.

vegasvixen1
05-12-2004, 04:53 PM
wow, i am starting to agree with sanderson....this cant be. j/k you make some very good points.

05-12-2004, 04:54 PM
You know what? I don't really care about some guy getting led by a leash around the neck anymore. His head is still attached to his neck.
YEP!!!!



RIGHT ON!!! Who cares what we do, as long as we're not as bad as they are!!!!!

Sorry the other 700 Americans who died weren't nice enough to do it for the camera, maybe then you'd spare a little righteous indignation for their deaths too.


Back to a point I made awhile ago, how would you feel if you were the guy's brother/friend/son/father? Seeing that wouldn't make you enraged? Angry? Upset? Ready to rip the skin off (figuratively speaking, of course) of the sob's that comitted such an act against someone you loved?

"righteous indignation" hmmmm.....

Farrah_Holiday
05-12-2004, 04:54 PM
You know what Sandy you're right ! Lets go over there and blow all of those cock sucking Arabs off the face of the Earth !

Farrah_Holiday
05-12-2004, 04:56 PM
Thank you so much for enlightening me !

Lexi
05-12-2004, 04:58 PM
I never said I would like to blow up EVERYONE or kill the entire race or religion, infact I only spoke of the extremists. But that is unlikely to happen, as in war, thousands of innocent people die. Sad but true. We have videos of all kinds of people who were killed in this war alone.

Farrah_Holiday
05-12-2004, 05:09 PM
Amen ! 2 wrongs do not make a right. I have seen pictures of children with their heads blown off or worse part of their head missing. None of these children were prisoners of war or soldiers. I pray that the killing will stop on both sides. But I know it won't. Not as long as the hatred continues on and for both sides ! >:(


two wrongs dont make a right? i hate that phrase. think of how stupid it is. does one wrong make a right? NO. does two? some would say yes, some would say no, but its certainly more Just and Right than allowing one wrong and preventing retribution.

What about multiple wrongs being perpetrated by one side on the other? is that right? ofcorse not. sometimes, in order to prevent further wrongs you need to stand up for yourself and commit them against the ones who've wronged you.

everyone who thinks peace solves violence has clearly never been surrounded by voilence.


I am glad you hate that phrase ! I hate the fact that people still live by the eye for an eye rule ..which boils down to the same thing !

Now to your second statement..Actually my fiance was killed right in front of me when some idiot tried to carjack my fucking Lexus. Has that made me go out and want to kill every person that looked like him ? No ! It hasn't I had a choice to use my anger for something negative or positive.. I chose the latter ! I have been faced with violence in my life more times than I care to remember. Its the way I chose to handle myself when faced with it that sets me apart from them monsters !

Lexi
05-12-2004, 05:26 PM
Farrah, Im sorry to hear about the incident with your fiance.
:(
You already have shown what a great person you are, and these kinds of things that happen and the way you react to them make you a better person than you could ever imagine.

Like you, if that had happened to me, I wouldnt take it against anyone who looked like the killer, but I would want revenge on him. :(

Sorry to hear that hun... you are always in my prayers.

edited to fix typos

polecat
05-12-2004, 05:26 PM
Sorry Polecat, you're quite right, if I haven't been to Iraq i can't know anything about what's going on there - for that matter how do I know there really is an "Iraq", supposedly right next to a place with almost EXACTLY the same name, "Iran." The whole thing sounds pretty fishy.
Well, that rather retarded comparison (getting used to them by now, actually) might actually have some relevance if there were actually any news or media sources contesting the very existence of Iran/Iraq. I'd say 100% reliable reporting from all sides is what forms a basis of reliable information. I'm not seeing any kind of relation to quite specific variances of prisoners and their innocence, guilt or containment circumstances, which are indeed quite split almost 50/50.

Also, I found the included London and Tribune quotations quite entertaining. Extremist media is always a good source of chuckles. It contains useful information, but you have to dig deep through BS in order to find it. Such is news.


For months I've been reading stories about the large number of Iraqis we were holding, there have been many protests by family members of those detained and I have repeatedly read interviews, in a variety of sources, with Iraqis who were arrested then released.
I've read a number of those here at home also. From raid/round-ups in east LA, to other situations occurring in Oakland. It's quite apparent that first-hand and eyewitness viewing of these events has a completely different take from the media representation of such events. That was the point.

Be it liberal or conservative slanted media, facts usually compose about 5%, the rest being editorialized commentary or assumed/embellished continuation to form an agenda. This is the very nature of media.


tell me, how many of your "conservative" news sources have dealt with specifics i.e. how many Iraqis have been charged, how many released?
Funny you would call it "your" conservative news sources. I don't recall ever owning, purchasing or having any affiliation with such. I rely on getting my information from numerous sources, sources across the globe, as well as individuals overseas I stay in constant contact with to get a feel for the dynamic of their mindsets in those regions. But I can understand that any variance in opinion must be met with instant labeling in order to self-justify that variance.


I do not claim that NPR, NYTimes, BBC or other sources are perfect, but i guarantee you'll read a lot more "pro-war" views in those places than you will "anti-war" views on Fox, Washington Times, etc. I guess according to Fox news that poor American was beheaded when he was crushed by the wreaths of flowers that grateful Iraqis were showering on Americans...wasn't that the party line not long ago?
That's the whole point. Any US media source is going to paint the 95% of any given set of facts with whatever color they see fit. The problem is when we as individuals pick selective consumption of said news sources and do not contrast them with the whole.

Interestingly enough, a more objective friend of mine overseas was discussing with me the "color" of their current mainstream media about this whole mess. For the past week, the images of the Iraqi prisoners have made front page news, along with strong words of condemnation for the acts. With Nick Berg, the headlines have been "Bush seeks justice for slain American" describing a $10 million dollar "Dead or Alive" reward placed on the heads of Iraqi "Freedom Fighters" with his cowboy law.. and it falls just under headlines of the "US Places Sanctions Against Syria" and "Israeli militants kill nine Palestinian civilians"

vegasvixen1
05-12-2004, 06:07 PM
polecat , you rock.

Farrah_Holiday
05-12-2004, 06:14 PM
Farrah, Im sorry to hear about the incident with your fiance.
:(
You already have shown what a great person you are, and these kinds of things that happen and the way you react to them make you a better person than you could ever imagine.

Like you, if that had happened to me, I wouldnt take it against anyone who looked like the killer, but I would want revenge on him. :(

Sorry to hear that hun... you are always in my prayers.

edited to fix typos


:hug:

Wwanderer
05-12-2004, 06:29 PM
It is interesting but worrying that none of the Senators who saw additional pictures and video of the Iraqi prisoner abuse today afterwards said anything in defense of the President or Sec of Defense. Even Senator Frist who has long been one of Bush's strongest and most consistent supporters simply said that he was "stunned". He had previously called the scandal "overblown", "exaggerated" or something to that effect.

Not good.

-Ww

lestat1
05-12-2004, 06:53 PM
Does anyone have any comments to add that have some actionable purpose (something they advocate that we, here and now, realistically do), or some new insight that furthers our understanding or increases our knowledge (or a book/article/website they suggest we read)?

I genuinely appreciate the opposing viewpoint and reminders of the US' sordid history that Weluckyfew offers us. I really do. However, I'm missing the point. Is it that given the failings of our past, we shouldn't be criticizing our enemy? Is it that we should be more understanding of their atrocities, given our own? Perhaps slightly, if not altogether? Is it that the US lacks the moral authority to act as an agent of law enforcement or nation building outside our own borders?

***RETARDED ANALOGY WARNING***
The following is a reatrded analogy that uses gross hyperbole for the purpose of expressing an opinion. It is not fact, it is perhaps not even accurate, and it lacks any basis in scientific study or published sources or agencies. But that's ok, as its purpose is simply as a tool to assist in further expressing an idea/opinion, not to stand on its own as a pillar of truth and logic. It is a tool, a means of using an extreme example to express the subtleties that a lesser example might fail to express. Polecat, for the love of God and all that is holy (or for anything that you value and cherish, should you be agnostic, atheist, etc.), skip the next paragraph, please! I guarantee you that the analogy will frustrate you for its many failings, result in wasted bandwith back and forth in a failed attempt by me to explain it properly, and send us off-topic. While everyone else reads the paragraph, maybe you can answer another question. Given the lack of accurate information, biased editorials and news sources, failed communication on both sides, the fact that none of us are currently in Iraq, etc...how would you suggest this thread proceed in a way that is logical and beneficial to our collective knowledge and understanding, and leads us forward?

The critique of US practices with regard to foreign and military policy is starting to sound like a critique of surgeons as being savage, violent, and inhuman for being paid to cut people with sharp knives. There's a broader, more balanced picture, a bigger story, that needs be explained (but perhaps it's assumed that we all know it anyway?)
***END WARNING***

Lastly, I'm sure many will see sarcasm or antagonism in this post, but I assure you, none is intended. This thread started out as very interesting, but has (IMO) become stagnant. I'd like to see it proceed and move forward in some positive way. Again, there is no sarcasm, insult, antagonism, etc. intended in this post. If you somehow see any and would like to suggest an alternate phrasing, please feel free to PM me and I will consider editing the post.

-lestatdl1

Djoser
05-12-2004, 07:26 PM
Hell, even I want to kill the f**king kid that was kicking the burned remains of the contractor in Fallujah, and all his buddies, too. I would like to see the five guys who beheaded Berg die a lot more painful death than he did. But if you want to remain civilized, you have to know where to stop.

The problem is that war rapidly brings murderous passions to the fore, and it is hard to stop killing because the victims might be innocent, if they are lumped in with the assholes.

A great many Iraqis want to kill ALL available Americans after hearing about the prisoners being mistreated. A great many Americans want to kill ALL Iraqis after watching the beheading video. Such is the dehumanising aspect of war.

Adolf Hitler and Hermann Goering were reviled for bombing civilian targets in London and other parts of England (and still are in many historical accounts, rightfully so). Photographs of the carnage shocked the world, and set the stage for vengeful Allies to begin a program of bombing civilian targets which made the Nazi efforts look like Cub Scouts trying to build a campfire.

Far, far more civilian casualties resulted from Allied bombing of civilian targets than occured in the London Blitz. Firestorms were created which destroyed Hamburg and Dresden (a city which possessed absolutely no military value whatsoever), in which thousands of women and children were burnt alive. In a similar firestorm, more people were burnt alive in Tokyo than were killed at Hiroshima.

In Normandy, just after D-Day, Canadians fighting SS troops began routinely butchering prisoners, just as happened to their buddies taken captive. If I were there I might have done the same thing. But I am here, and I wish they hadn't.

Anyone who has been in the military can imagine how easy it would be for a bunch of 18 year old marines, brave as they might be, and facing an enemy who will blow themself up to kill or maim marines, will reach a point where they are not going to be too discriminating about who they round up in a potentially hostile population.

If we are supposed to be bringing "peace" and "freedom" to these people, regardless of whether they wanted us to or not, we can't let the scum among them motivate us to kill them all.

Farrah_Holiday
05-12-2004, 08:29 PM
All I can say is wow !

While I don't agree with the American getting beheaded. Is that grounds to condem a WHOLE race or an entire religion ?




I didn't realize that was the sentiment. It's not mine.


I am glad to hear that Saph..but I actually wasn't making reference to you.

polecat
05-12-2004, 10:08 PM
***RETARDED ANALOGY WARNING***
...
Polecat, for the love of God and all that is holy (or for anything that you value and cherish, should you be agnostic, atheist, etc.), skip the next paragraph, please! I guarantee you that the analogy will frustrate you for its many failings, result in wasted bandwith back and forth in a failed attempt by me to explain it properly, and send us off-topic.
Actually, your disclaimer displays that you really didn't get it at all... or even close.

Your example isn't even a retarded analogy since there ARE groups that have a standpoint that describe surgeons as you had given, therefore it's not retarded one bit but holds water as something up for debate/discussion (i.e. has multiple sides or viewpoints). But as you did identify later in your post the purpose was truly sarcasm and antagonism.. I'll just giggle and retort "Don't quit your day job" :D

A retarded analogy would be something like "Well, maybe the world DOESNT have oxygen!" as a retort to something about the flavor of french roast vs. columbian coffee.. completely unrelated and also an invented (and non-constructive) addition.

I'm also still very interested where all this "upset" and "frustration" labeling is coming from. Seems to be a consistent part of your communication to constantly label anyone you are addressing as somehow disgruntled. Why is this and what is it's purpose? It's surely unfounded and also fictional.


maybe you can answer another question. Given the lack of accurate information, biased editorials and news sources, failed communication on both sides, the fact that none of us are currently in Iraq, etc...how would you suggest this thread proceed in a way that is logical and beneficial to our collective knowledge and understanding, and leads us forward?
Quite simply it involves having an open mind, rather than a locked-shut, completely non-tolerating, "I am right and everyone else is wrong" and "Oh, well you MUST be conservative!" labeling spree.

Someone that questions the validity of both conservative and liberal banter is ALWAYS labeled a conservative.. which doesn't make much sense... nor does it actually reflect any possible progress on a discussion. Unfortunately, discussion is usually not the directive of such debates as it's usually more a case of one party trying to impart their point of view on everyone else through the use of quotations, links, and whatnot... and treating such as absolutes and infallible. Pretexting these with "while I know no source is perfect, but HERE- READ THESE.." doesn't change this either. :rotfl: :rotfl:

The point being, in this particular case, there is a flurry of varying reports concerning the Iraqi prisoners/detainees/civilians or whatever you want to call them. What's consistent is- "Jails have people in them" across the boards.. the similaries cease here. What is ironic is people always seem to favor an ideal that resembles the media saturation for their particular geographic. I'm simply saying it is negligent to pick/choose one's source of information. It's a fairly simple concept.

lestat1
05-13-2004, 07:00 AM
Lastly, I'm sure many will see sarcasm or antagonism in this post, but I assure you, none is intended. This thread started out as very interesting, but has (IMO) become stagnant. I'd like to see it proceed and move forward in some positive way. Again, there is no sarcasm, insult, antagonism, etc. intended in this post. If you somehow see any and would like to suggest an alternate phrasing, please feel free to PM me and I will consider editing the post.



But as you did identify later in your post the purpose was truly sarcasm and antagonism.. I'll just giggle and retort "Don't quit your day job" :D

Dare I even ask what I could do to clear this up?