View Full Version : Drunk customers -is there such a thing as crossing the line
Weluckyfew
05-04-2004, 09:09 PM
i dont believe in karma.
i am superior.
fuck the handicapped, like i fucked your grandfather on his deathbed.
-love always,
sandy
Sandy, you sonofabitch! You never paid for that last fuck! Don't try and use his dying as an excuse, it was $20 for 20 minutes and you didn't let the death stop you from going the full 20 minutes so you still owe!
And Pole, i agree, at this point discussion seem a bit pointless, but just to defend one last point:
<<<There is no rational debate or productive discussion that can occur when the microcosm/focus is distorted into a macrocosm of universal proportions >>>
You expanded the debate and phrased it in terms of larger philosophical issues, so I was using extreme situations to show what I thought were flaws in those positions - But I understand that you think doing that is ridiculous, so be it. Nevertheless I appreciate you sharing your opinions - now if I could just learn to not so damn snippy in some of my posts (they really are meant to be lighthearted)
As for Vegas, is anyone still reading her posts? I've been skipping them over and deleting her e-mail to me unread. erotictonic, I revcommend the same.
vegasvixen1
05-04-2004, 09:24 PM
LUCKY: I make u feel that small and insignificant that u dont even have the nerve to read what i say ??????? wow, very flattered i must say. Of course if u skipped over my posts then u wouldnt even know i was posting now would u genius??? I love the $10,000 words u now use in order to avoid coming across as ignorant. lol very original.
p.s. please dont make up lies such as "oh help vegas wont stop emailing me" trust me i dont waist my time sending emails to people who would struggle with the basic skill of reading them.
Tigerlilly
05-04-2004, 09:52 PM
But Tigerlilly, we're talking about lap dances and you're talking about alcoholic drinks. He should have been cut off definately, if he was that drunk. But he wasn't too drunk to walk to the register, he wasn't too drunk to whip out his credit card, who are we to say he was too drunk to decide if he wanted a VIP.
Its the same principle, for me anyway, but yeah I wasn't there nor am I him, so no I don't know what he wanted :shrug:
smittenkitten
05-04-2004, 10:20 PM
Well, I'm not a dancer, so I will concede that my opinions may be naive - HOWEVER, I think strip clubs are a great institution. And this is really horrible of me to say this, but... I think SC's are a great punishment for the sex/porn addict guys. They leave their wives in bed alone to go and live out the fantasy? Sure, let 'em get sucked out of their money. A talented girl can make them feel wanted when they're really just being used? Hey, what goes around comes around. More power to the girls who can really work it and suck the losers dry. Granted, I have some serious personal issues with such men, but all in all, a loser's fair game. As for the nice normal well-adjusted guys that just go in for a good time, SC's are great for them, too. There's no pressure. They have a good time, the dancers have a good time, and everybody knows and expects that his wallet will be a little thinner when he leaves.
But the alcohol changes it a lot. This loser is looking for love from a dancer who is there to make money off of him? In general, I'd say let him wallow in the sewage of his meaningless life. If he needs a stripper's 'fake' affection to feel like a man then so be it. I don't mean anything against the ladies, it's just the idea of the men who can't or don't sustain real relationships because they're obsessed with the fantasy of the perfect woman who 'wants to be with him' -in the VIP room, at least, LOL, that makes me say 'meaningless life'. But everybody's vulnerable when they're drunk. I know getting drunk is a choice, to a large extent, but I think any guy who's clearly drunk shoud be off limits. I think SCs should be about the game and the tease... not out and out exploitation of someone's weaknesses. I think it's awesome how some girls can work the customers. They are completely in control of that whole 'feminine mystique' thing and I am envious. But I think everybody should hold to their morals and not completely screw anybody, and IMHO, this girl was just...not a nice person... Likewise, wouldn't we all be totally up in arms if a dancer was drunk and let a customer take liberties she wouldn't normally allow? I speak for myself, I suppose, but I'd definitely think the customer was a dick. Personally, I don't really think any strip clubs should serve alcohol... not even BYOB. I think it just confuses things... I'm not for prohibition or anything. I just think that at least half of the 'regulars' that never miss a night, or a lapdance, or something like that probably have fairly serious psychological issues, and the more they drink, the more they indulge, and the deeper they've sunk in the morning. Maybe extreme, and naive, but I do have a lot of personal experience with these types of guys. I just think alcohol makes a bad situation worse.
smittenkitten
05-04-2004, 11:28 PM
Probably shouldn't throw my two cents in here, but can't help being a bitch once in a while...
What reasonably intelligent person would consider words like 'macrocosm' 'microcosm' 'perpetrating', etc. "$10,000 words". They're junior high vocab words. I mean, if you don't know what they mean, that's okay. But you could at least look them up instead of insulting the person who uses them. Oh the horrors, you might actually learn something instead of pissing and swearing your way through debates. People don't generally use 'big' words to show off. They do it because that's the level they think on. Oh, wait... That's the level on which they think. Can't do that ending in a preposition thing. :D Just once I'd like to blend in with that elusive 'cool' crowd that expects you to party instead of asking you how to spell something. But you know, I have this nasty habit of using words with more than five letters. Yes, I could say 'You took the long-ass way!' but I say something like 'Well, that was a circuitous route.' I don't do it to show off. I do it because that is honestly the first thing that comes to my mind. And I experimented for a while with trying to say things more casually. I'd think of what I wanted to say, and then 'downgrade' it into slang, just to try to shake the dork thing. But apparently I can't, and why do I even feel the need to? Why is it so bad to be smart? Why is it when someone is well-spoken, they're suddenly a snob, or just trying to avoid 'coming across as being ignorant?' Could it be possible that people who use 'big' words really aren't ignorant?
A needless rant and I apologize who anybody who read this thinking it might be something relevant to the drunk topic, but Vegas kinda pissed me off.
vegasvixen1
05-05-2004, 12:11 AM
SMITTEN: OH WAIT LITTLE GIRL ....HOW MANY DEGREES DO U HAVE ?? OH , I HAVE 2 SO MAYBE U SHOULD EDUCATE YOURSELF BEFORE MAKING IT PAINFULLY OBVIOUS TO EVERYONE HOW BADLY YOU WANT TO BE THOUGHT OF AS INTELLIGENT. I NEVER SAID IT WAS "BAD TO BE SMART" HOWEVER I DO THINK ITS "BAD" TO BE A POMPUS ASSHOLE...APPARENTLY MANY OF U ARE MORE THAN COMFORTABLE WITH THE IDEA, EACH TO THEIR OWN. BUT DONT TALK DOWN TO ME WHEN U KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ME. THOSE OF US WHO DO HAVE A DECENT COLLEGE EDUCATION DONT HAVE TO HAVE OUR HANDY LITTLE THESARUS NEARBY WHILE TYPING IN ORDER TO PROVE OUR "SO CALLED INTELLIGENCE" . BTW SWEETY, WE CAN ALL TELL YOUR ANOTHER LITTLE LUCKYFEW DEFENDER (again, each to thei own) HOWEVER , AS MUCH AS I DO HATE TO BURST YOUR BUBBLE....(sorry cant resist...just too tempting) IF LUCKY DID NATURALLY THINK ON "THAT LEVEL" AS U CLAIM HE DOES...WELL I THINK HE WOULD BE MORE THAN A HAS BEEN ATTEMPT AT A COMIC AND NOW JUST A DJ. (AND YES I DO HAVE A CAREER OUTSIDE OF DANCING, BEFORE U BOTHER ACCUSING.) HAVE A NICE EVENING. YOU ARE WELCOME FOR BEING INFORMED. :)
smittenkitten
05-05-2004, 01:41 AM
You have an uncanny knack for proving the points of all the people you oppose so vocally.
But as long as we're on the subject of your infinite wisdom with your two degrees (in what, exactly?), let's just get a few things straight. 'Pompus' pompous, 'thesarus'thesaurus. Should I mention how you won't 'waist' your time? As for LuckyFew- It's not like I was trying to be inconspicuous. And it's funny that information about a guy I don't know would burst my bubble. I didn't realize I was so co-dependent. Where would I be without a multiple-degreed genius such as yourself to help me find my way? Truly, your insight is invaluable. Prepare the flamethrowers now because (god have mercy) I am going to defend weluckyfew AGAIN. Which, if you weren't so blinded by your animosity towards him, would be seen as defending a viewpoint I agree with, or in this case, opposing one I don't share, rather than defending a particular entity.
Some people want to do different things with their lives. I chose to become a mom, weluckyfew chose to make people laugh. Lest we forget that most people don't consider exotic dancing to be the most 'brainy' job in the classifieds. That hardly makes anyone here dumb because that's what they chose to do. Dancers or nuclear physicists; it doesn't change their intelligence one way or the other.
I didn't use a thesaurus for any of my post. But I might suggest that you start using a dictionary if you insist on touting your supremacy.
And to all the nice people out there, I'm not the grammar nazi.. Well, ok, I am at home, but I won't be here. LOL - At ease. But preaching about superior intellect and 'proving' it by making such glaring errors... Well, it was too juicy. I'm finished, though. I've made my point and I will keep myself in check. :-X
polecat
05-05-2004, 01:50 AM
What reasonably intelligent person would consider words like 'macrocosm' 'microcosm' 'perpetrating', etc. "$10,000 words". They're junior high vocab words.
In all fairness, those were my words and not WeLuckyFew's. I'm not sure if those were what she was referring to, but it's possible he was wrongfully accused on this occasion as he was quoting me.
Lest we forget that most people don't consider exotic dancing to be the most 'brainy' job in the classifieds. That hardly makes anyone here dumb because that's what they chose to do. Dancers or nuclear physicists; it doesn't change their intelligence one way or the other.
Great point. I know several dancers I'd swap out for several of the degree'd engineers that work for my company any day. One's position on the career foodchain truly has no relation to one's general intelligence, wisdom or education level.
The last company I worked for was in the medical industry and had a transcription department. I was absolutely stunned by how the highest majority of PHD degreed physicians couldn't spell nor have even basic 12th grade English skills. The same goes for MANY lawyers. Seeing a handwritten paper that resembled your average Yahoo chat channel was quite the rude awakening. Add to that the fact their handwriting looked like they were balancing a pen the size of a horse's leg...
vegasvixen-
I NEVER SAID IT WAS "BAD TO BE SMART" HOWEVER I DO THINK ITS "BAD" TO BE A POMPUS ASSHOLE...APPARENTLY MANY OF U ARE MORE THAN COMFORTABLE WITH THE IDEA, EACH TO THEIR OWN. BUT DONT TALK DOWN TO ME WHEN U KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ME. THOSE OF US WHO DO HAVE A DECENT COLLEGE EDUCATION DONT HAVE TO HAVE OUR HANDY LITTLE THESARUS NEARBY WHILE TYPING IN ORDER TO PROVE OUR "SO CALLED INTELLIGENCE"
Do you think you can lose the capslock? Im not trying to nitpick you, but your message does lose some of it's strength when it's in all caps.
I'd also add that one's usage of vocabulary is generally more region-specific than by personal decision. I post in the same way I communicate in daily life, which includes words that may not be as popular or widely used in other regions. I notice the same thing when reading posts from people from other regions as well, but I don't assume they are trying to "impress" anyone, but instead using a vocabulary they are accustomed to and that fit the expressive context of their message.
erotictonic
05-05-2004, 02:45 AM
smittenkitten ~
LMAO at your rant. Welcome to SW, baby! :D
ET :sun:
lestat1
05-05-2004, 05:57 AM
Polecat you can place me in the category of those that don't "get it." As best as I can tell, you're making an obvious distinction between small stuff (stiffed for $250) and largeer stuff (killing spree). That makes sense of course. However to me, your take on varying "ethical measuring sticks" does not seem to allow for such distinctions.
To try and clear things up, can you tell me if this statement is accurate of your beliefs:
"I won't condemn what I believe to be ethical infractions of others because I don't think it's fair to hold everyone to my own personal ethical guidelines. However, the further they travel towards the unethial end of my measuring stick, the more likely that I will condemn their actions and disapprove of them."
If so, perhaps stating that because of varying levels of personal ethics you're a bit tolerant before condeming others would have more accurately explained yourself than the very broad way you phrased it, as a paradigm beyond this particular situation.
If not, then seeing as my IQ is in the 140s, and statistically above 99.57% of the population, and I can't understand you, it's reasonable to assume that most of the people reading your comments won't understand you as well. Which would suggest you're either a genius of rare and epic proportions speaking far above our heads, or the gap in understanding rests with your inability to express yourself clearly, and not our ability to understand it, as you suggest.
-lestat1
polecat
05-05-2004, 06:06 AM
To try and clear things up, can you tell me if this statement is accurate of your beliefs:
SNIP! I haven't accurately or clearly given my personal beliefs.. so therefore any assumptions as to them are simply that- assumptions.
Long before I even hinted at what *my* personal beliefs were, people were already assuming I was on the side of the rather unscrupulous dancer. I've since simply stipulated that isn't necessarily the case.
If not, then seeing as my IQ is in the 140s, and statistically above 99.57% of the population, and I can't understand you, it's reasonable to assume that most of the people reading your comments won't understand you as well.
Actually, it's more a case of simple human nature for people to see gaps and fill them with whatever comes to mind... which is why it's futile to go any deeper. It's an uphill battle to work apart from a mountain pre-built on simply prejudice and assumption.. a battle I'm much too lazy and disinterested in pursuing... even moreso when it's against someone that puts precendence on test scores, population comparisons or similar as leverage to statements given, text or opinion.
Edit-
The root context really comes down to a Capitalist (a fool and his money are soon parted, as long as the money is in my pocket) and Socialist (a fool should be protected by his peers) mindset. I simply brought forth that whichever side of the fence you may sit on, there is a valid, rational debate crossing over. Some may read that to mean I'm a Capitalist, others assume a Socialist. Perhaps I'm neither. My original post was complete and clear. Anything past that is only an attempt to dillute it's content.
Cheers
sander8son
05-05-2004, 06:55 AM
VEGAS, TWO DEGREES, THATS COOL. I'M STILL WORKING ON MY FIRST, AND I CAN ASSURE YOU, MY LAST.
DID YOU GO TO THE SAME SCHOOL FOR BOTH? WHICH SCHOOL(S) DID YOU GET THEM FROM? WHAT DID YOU STUDY?
I DONT SEE A POINT TO GETTING TWO UNDERGRAD DEGREES, SO I'M ALWAYS CURIOUS WHEN I HEAR OF SOMEONE DOING SUCH A THING. OR, BY TWO DEGREES ARE YOU SAYING YOU HAVE A BS/BA AND MASTERS?
IF ITS TWO BS/BA'S DID YOU HAVE TO EARN ALL THE CREDITS AGAIN THE SECOND TIME, OR DID YOU GET TO TRANSFER IN A LOT OF THE PRE-REQ CRAP?
JUST WONDERING.
VenusGoddess
05-05-2004, 08:10 AM
You have an uncanny knack for proving the points of all the people you oppose so vocally.
But as long as we're on the subject of your infinite wisdom with your two degrees (in what, exactly?), let's just get a few things straight. 'Pompus' pompous, 'thesarus'thesaurus. Should I mention how you won't 'waist' your time? As for LuckyFew- It's not like I was trying to be inconspicuous. And it's funny that information about a guy I don't know would burst my bubble. I didn't realize I was so co-dependent. Where would I be without a multiple-degreed genius such as yourself to help me find my way? Truly, your insight is invaluable. Prepare the flamethrowers now because (god have mercy) I am going to defend weluckyfew AGAIN. Which, if you weren't so blinded by your animosity towards him, would be seen as defending a viewpoint I agree with, or in this case, opposing one I don't share, rather than defending a particular entity.
Some people want to do different things with their lives. I chose to become a mom, weluckyfew chose to make people laugh. Lest we forget that most people don't consider exotic dancing to be the most 'brainy' job in the classifieds. That hardly makes anyone here dumb because that's what they chose to do. Dancers or nuclear physicists; it doesn't change their intelligence one way or the other.
I didn't use a thesaurus for any of my post. But I might suggest that you start using a dictionary if you insist on touting your supremacy.
And to all the nice people out there, I'm not the grammar nazi.. Well, ok, I am at home, but I won't be here. LOL - At ease. But preaching about superior intellect and 'proving' it by making such glaring errors... Well, it was too juicy. I'm finished, though. I've made my point and I will keep myself in check. :-X
LOL...OMG...good post!! But, I need to correct you in one area. The dictionary part...you must have meant spell checker; how would she find the word in the dictionary if she cannot even spell the word correctly? LOL
VenusGoddess
05-05-2004, 08:19 AM
SMITTEN: OH WAIT LITTLE GIRL ....HOW MANY DEGREES DO U HAVE ?? OH , I HAVE 2 SO MAYBE U SHOULD EDUCATE YOURSELF BEFORE MAKING IT PAINFULLY OBVIOUS TO EVERYONE HOW BADLY YOU WANT TO BE THOUGHT OF AS INTELLIGENT. I NEVER SAID IT WAS "BAD TO BE SMART" HOWEVER I DO THINK ITS "BAD" TO BE A POMPUS ASSHOLE...APPARENTLY MANY OF U ARE MORE THAN COMFORTABLE WITH THE IDEA, EACH TO THEIR OWN. BUT DONT TALK DOWN TO ME WHEN U KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ME. THOSE OF US WHO DO HAVE A DECENT COLLEGE EDUCATION DONT HAVE TO HAVE OUR HANDY LITTLE THESARUS NEARBY WHILE TYPING IN ORDER TO PROVE OUR "SO CALLED INTELLIGENCE" . BTW SWEETY, WE CAN ALL TELL YOUR ANOTHER LITTLE LUCKYFEW DEFENDER (again, each to thei own) HOWEVER , AS MUCH AS I DO HATE TO BURST YOUR BUBBLE....(sorry cant resist...just too tempting) IF LUCKY DID NATURALLY THINK ON "THAT LEVEL" AS U CLAIM HE DOES...WELL I THINK HE WOULD BE MORE THAN A HAS BEEN ATTEMPT AT A COMIC AND NOW JUST A DJ. (AND YES I DO HAVE A CAREER OUTSIDE OF DANCING, BEFORE U BOTHER ACCUSING.) HAVE A NICE EVENING. YOU ARE WELCOME FOR BEING INFORMED. :)
Ok...how are you 22 and have 2 degrees? And why do you think that someone who is "on the level" has to do rocket science or anything of that nature? Why is it so hard to believe that an extremely intelligent person can make an honest (and fun) living being a comedian and DJ?
I also find it mildly amusing how you over-react to every word that is said to you on this board. Every time I see a post directed towards you, I know that I am going to find a post from you insulting people, cussing them out...and yes, spelling incorrectly, the easiest words that a college graduate with TWO degrees should know. Not to mention the total lack (knowledge??) of grammar and punctuation. But, maybe they skipped over all of that at your school...maybe you were just required to show up and not actually learn anything. But, hey, to each their own.
In regards to the "Pompus" asshole point...I would really suggest you practice what you preach. Alot of posts that you have made, have done nothing but spout off how great you are...how you are so much better than most because of your two degrees. If you don't want to deal with such "pompus" assholes, may I suggest that you quit being one yourself.
Have a nice day.
lestat1
05-05-2004, 08:58 AM
I haven't accurately or clearly given my personal beliefs..
My original post was complete and clear.
:rotfl:
Silly me for being confused, and for inserting some statistics and facts to try and illustrate to you that a little clarity would be helpful to those who've upset you by not understanding your post and doing their best to fill in the gaps and make sense of it.
erotictonic
05-05-2004, 09:40 AM
I haven't accurately or clearly given my personal beliefs..
My original post was complete and clear.
:rotfl:
Silly me for being confused, and for inserting some statistics and facts to try and illustrate to you that a little clarity would be helpful to those who've upset you by not understanding your post and doing their best to fill in the gaps and make sense of it.
Stat, what I don't understand is why you are having so many problems understanding Polecat's posts. Do you not read much? Since we are talking iqs here, my iq is 126, according to a cheapie online iq test I took a month or so ago, and I understand exactly what point Polecat is trying to make in every post in this thread. Go figure....
lestat1
05-05-2004, 09:59 AM
Stat, what I don't understand is why you are having so many problems understanding Polecat's posts. Do you not read much? Since we are talking iqs here, my iq is 126, according to a cheapie online iq test I took a month or so ago, and I understand exactly what point Polecat is trying to make in every post in this thread. Go figure....
Awesome! Can you explain his points to me then? Better use small words too, maybe my reading comprehension isn't what it used to be.
-----
EDIT: I wasn't trying to be rhetorical or sarcastic there. I was actually looking to have you explain it to me since he's not interested anymore.
erotictonic
05-05-2004, 02:53 PM
Stat, honey, you are just too much. ;)
vegasvixen1
05-05-2004, 03:10 PM
Finished high school right before i turned 17 then immediately began college (UCLA) and so that is how i have two degrees. I majored in comm. with a minor in psych. any other questions? VENUS: oh thats right i forgot how you never make any typing errors. I stand corrected , yeah ok i know, i know i cant spell...now do u feel superior little girl??? I know its hard but try not to be jealous that u are lacking in education, just remember ....you're never too old to learn!! :)
vegasvixen1
05-05-2004, 03:14 PM
POLECAT: WHAT IS YOUR FEAR OF CAPSLOCK? MY MESSAGE LOSES ITS MEANING WITH CAPSLOCK?? ARE U LISTENING TO YOURSELF?? NOW I HAVE TO USE IT JUST TO BOTHER U... SORRY :)
lestat1
05-05-2004, 03:21 PM
Stat, honey, you are just too much. ;)
:shrug: I guess that's a "no."
VenusGoddess
05-05-2004, 03:36 PM
Finished high school right before i turned 17 then immediately began college (UCLA) and so that is how i have two degrees. I majored in comm. with a minor in psych. any other questions? VENUS: oh thats right i forgot how you never make any typing errors. I stand corrected , yeah ok i know, i know i cant spell...now do u feel superior little girl??? I know its hard but try not to be jealous that u are lacking in education, just remember ....you're never too old to learn!! :)
No, not jealous at all...why would I be jealous of anyone with a personality like yours?
Bridgette
05-05-2004, 03:54 PM
Last time I checked, having a MAJOR and a MINOR does not = having TWO degrees. It only means you have ONE degree in ONE subject, with a MINOR in another. ::)
Bridgette
05-05-2004, 04:05 PM
To answer the original post here, I would have avoided that guy like the plague, simply because he would have been a real pain in the ass to deal with. I'll go elsewhere to make my money. This is my practical answer....
On the one hand I have a hard time condemning the girl for taking his money - he is an adult, he agreed to go, we get drunk emotionally impaired customers ALL the time...does that mean we aren't supposed dance for any of them? ALOT of customers have emotional and/or other problems when they arrive, but most don't show it in such an obvious way. On the other hand this was a more extreme case apparently, and I have a problem taking advantage of a guy in such a state. I prefer to deal with customers who are a bit more in control of their faculties, mainly because they are usually less of a hassle but also because I am equally annoyed at customers who take advantage of desperate girls.
Lilith
05-05-2004, 04:14 PM
I tired of reading all the back and forth somewhere on the third page, so this might be redundant. Not that I care.
It's pretty obvious that we are not dealing with all of the facts here, and that the original scenario was put forth from the biased perspective of someone (the waitress) who disapproved of the situation. Worse, the whole set of facts given us is hearsay, from a friend of the waitress; we know the teller did not witness the event and can assume that perhaps the waitress herself did not see it all unfold from start to finish either. In short, the debate is flawed to begin with.
A customer wanted to pay for something, and had the funds to do so. He had made the decision that this service was what he wanted. His reasons (or impairment) aside, he made a decision. It was condescending of your friend to second-guess his decision, and the fellow was not so impaired as to fail to realize the insult she offered him, thus the fit he threw until someone conceeded to his decision. In this aspect of the debate, your friend was clearly in the wrong. It was not her place to tell him how he could spend his money, and on whom, and how much was appropriate. He was not buying anything dangerous (like more alcohol) nor was he attempting dangerous actions (like driving home). He simply wanted a dance. It also isn't the place of a waitress to decide whether a customer is sober enough to enjoy his dance or whether he has the right dancer. For all she knew, this dancer had been with the guy all night long and had developed a cultivated relationship with him while still sober, which he followed up on after getting drunk. It's quite common.
If the dancer lied to him about being in love, as the skewed story implies, then she was in the wrong. If she promised far more than she planned on delivering, then she committed fraud. However, if she merely allowed him to believe what he wanted from an ambiguous statement ("You know I'll take care of you, sweetie"), then I cannot disapprove. That is a sales method, pure and simple. Not one that I prefer to employ, but practiced by many strippers worldwide and condoned by most everyone... savvy customers included. (Note: For proof of this, read the blue site for anything regarding SS.) Using such ambiguity against a drunk is perhaps not savory, but I cannot disapprove of the ambiguity on the whole and I cannot confirm either how drunk he was or if the dancer was aware of his drunkenness.
The entire debate is just a little moot anyways. Drunk Mexican could be a totally happy camper right now, but for the stinging memory of a snippy, patronizing waitress. Dancer may be feeling guilty right now, having not known until ten minutes into VIP just how drunk the guy was. We can do nothing except speculate and offer hypotheses based on our own prejudices; a futile exercise under normal circumstances and especially so in debate. This could go on for twenty pages with everyone being convinced that their version of the story is "right", and none knowing what REALLY happened. It would be better to invent a hypothetical situation with all facts present and offer that for debate.
VenusGoddess
05-05-2004, 04:18 PM
Last time I checked, having a MAJOR and a MINOR does not = having TWO degrees. It only means you have ONE degree in ONE subject, with a MINOR in another. ::)
LOL!!! Oooops...VegasVixen spoiled again!! :cheers:
Lilith
05-05-2004, 04:19 PM
I just had to add that Bridgette makes a good point (why does that not surprise me?). If we threw out all the customers who were drunk and/or somewhat emotionally abnormal, the club would positively echo with emptiness. Alcohol and a need for attention from women are the basis for the entire business.
smittenkitten
05-05-2004, 06:27 PM
LOL - Hearing that Vegas is only 22 is amusing to me. How can someone that age call everybody 'Little girl'? I'm 22 and I know I'm a young buck. Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on the day :P, I'm old for my age). To just assume that anyone who disagrees with you must be young and uneducated is pretty lame. And the idea that she majored in communication is really the icing on the cake! :D Keeps it interesting, though.
smittenkitten
05-05-2004, 06:51 PM
This post isn't directed at anyone in particular. It's just something I've been musing about. There are some posts here to the effect of 'Well, I don't agree with it, but it really isn't my place to judge.' I can respect that to a point, but it leaves me wondering... If you wouldn't personally rape someone in an alley, yet you come across someone else being raped, would you just let them do their thing because it isn't your place to judge? Before that comes across as argumentative, give me a second to explain. It seems that in stopping the guy, you would more or less be judging him. You wouldn't be saying, "You're a horrible person and you should go to hell." But you would be saying, "I don't really agree with what you're doing, so I'm going to try to stop you." And of course, no one would fault you for that decision. But isn't that a form of judgment? Likewise, by not helping out the person who we feel is being mistreated aren't we also 'judging' that person and deciding, in our estimation, that it isn't our place to try to help out. Of course, judging someone is generally viewed as bad thing, but I kind of wonder if it isn't just a necessary part of living. I think most of us (with the exception of the Darwinists) would help someone if we thought we could. And that usually means that, to some extent, we also end up judging someone else. So, by avoiding judgment of anyone, it seems that it makes it virtually impossible for any good to come of it. --- Just brooding.
sander8son
05-05-2004, 06:55 PM
theres nothign wrong with judging people. i hate all that PC bullshit. i think i tend to overjudge people to make up for all the pass-asses that dont think its right. ok, another pointelss post.... may as well continue.......
the thread title always reminds me of this,
"teenagers washing cars to raise money for charity; is there anything more erotic?" - family guy (tom tucker)
forget which episode. ok. goodenough for now.
smittenkitten
05-05-2004, 07:10 PM
Oh, that annoys me to NO end. UGHH... Have you ever seen the Boy Scouts do carwashes? Or the local motorhead club? I haven't anyway. Every fundraising carwash I pass (with my admittedly dirty and likely to remain that way car) is always being promoted by girls in cropped shirts and micro shorts. I know it's summer, but come on! I passed one the other day that was a cheerleader carwash (lol, suck the drool back in). It just really annoyed me. I'm cool with selling 'sex' - in the right place and in the right context, but I don't think a local high school sponsoring that is the right context at all. Aside from that - being a woman and 'working the angle' is commendable, very feminine, and worthy of envy when it's subtle. When it's this big blatant cheerleader, wet t-shirt contest, Cool Hand Luke carwash scene cliche, it just annoys me. What challenge is there in selling out to the masses? Just a rant. If you insist on selling 'sex' on a street corner next to my kids' playground, at least come up with something better than 'DelVal College Cheerleaders Car Wash'.
polecat
05-05-2004, 07:42 PM
There are some posts here to the effect of 'Well, I don't agree with it, but it really isn't my place to judge.' I can respect that to a point, but it leaves me wondering... If you wouldn't personally rape someone in an alley, yet you come across someone else being raped, would you just let them do their thing because it isn't your place to judge?
I wouldn't call it argumentative, but more a case of trying to define absolutes that differ based on heuristics, and a splash of common sense.
Example- a statement of: "I like to eat chocolate cake!".. well, anyone can come along and query, "What if it's moldy, stale chocolate cake? Would you still eat it?" or "What if Charles Manson offerred you chocolate cake?" etc.etc. Some degree of common sense is assumed so as simple declarations don't require a 5-page thesis of exceptions/rules that govern simple concepts.
Further, vegasvixen put it as "double-standards web", but I'd go so far as to say with most people and ethics/morals, it's more of triple-standards... and part of being human and I'd not have it any other way.
Common sense always works as a modifier to rules/methodologies. By triple-standards, people can often times have standards they place for themselves, their loved ones and finally random strangers... i.e. there are things we will succumb to ourselves that we would never allow to happen to those we love, but then have a waivering decision that could go either way for total strangers.
Another example- if I'm walking down a dark alley and encounter mischief, say 2 thugs jump out.. I wouldn't expect nor desire anyone else to become involved. My measuring stick for this event would be: I got myself into this mess, I'm going to deal with it. If it had been someone I know, I would most definately assist if witnessed. If it was a total stranger, a certain degree of heuristics would be required to decide involvement- is it a female? Is it some 6'7 guy being jumped by two skinny crackheads? etc.etc. We have three different sets of standards that define our actions. Very similar to the "women and children first" ideology of a sinking ship. What those three sets of standards are, as well as the situations and ethics around them- our beliefs and principles decide how we react and how we feel appropriate to act.
It seems that in stopping the guy, you would more or less be judging him. You wouldn't be saying, "You're a horrible person and you should go to hell." But you would be saying, "I don't really agree with what you're doing, so I'm going to try to stop you." And of course, no one would fault you for that decision. But isn't that a form of judgment?
That's kind of what laws are for. They put a popular/societal acceptance level on certain things so as people really don't have to think too much. Laws themselves can be vague and leave much to personal interpretation as well- so it still comes down to the "stuff" each and every one of us has within us for which side of the fence we sit on. One person's coward is another person's pinnacle of wisdom. Say the rapist has a gun. Some people would look at rushing to the aid of an armed rape as stupid/suicidal. Other's would view it as heroic and valorous. If the victim is someone you know or a complete stranger can further divide the opinions.
I think most of us (with the exception of the Darwinists) would help someone if we thought we could. And that usually means that, to some extent, we also end up judging someone else. So, by avoiding judgment of anyone, it seems that it makes it virtually impossible for any good to come of it.
There is a prolific difference between judging someone in our own minds and taking action to chide or mold others to our own point of view. We all judge in our minds and make decisions about everyone. That's how we build our mental makeup of people- we like, we don't like, we agree, we disagree, etc.etc. A policy of tolerance simply suggests that we don't fault or consider differences as being superior or inferior, just different. In your example, it would be a simple distinction between whether you accept the "Darwinists" if they differ from you or think they are an evil scourge that must be stopped (i.e. refusing the dancer taking a drunk customer to VIP, etc.).
I live with someone who is made of totally different than myself. He works sales where success is measured by how many higher commission items are sold over better quality lower commission items. I live in a region of people that are also made of totally different stuff- from homosexuals, fetishists, sex workers, all sorts of unusual and prolific religions, etc.etc. all pushed into the daily mainstream society. Provided nobody is physically or emotionally harming anyone, I don't see a problem with any of this. Alternatively, happiness can be achieved by trying to understand the different points of views and look outwards to others as "equals"- rather than inferior for simply being different, or having different measuring sticks for what they consider morally correct.
Hope that makes sense! Off my soapbox now. heh
Lilith
05-05-2004, 09:55 PM
There are some posts here to the effect of 'Well, I don't agree with it, but it really isn't my place to judge.' I can respect that to a point, but it leaves me wondering... If you wouldn't personally rape someone in an alley, yet you come across someone else being raped, would you just let them do their thing because it isn't your place to judge?
Hyperbole in a debate is very annoying. However, I'll give you the opportunity to explain why asking someone to spend $250 when said customer may be too drunk is the actual equivalent of premeditated rape.
scorpio
05-05-2004, 09:57 PM
Finished high school right before i turned 17 then immediately began college (UCLA) and so that is how i have two degrees. I majored in comm. with a minor in psych. any other questions? VENUS: oh thats right i forgot how you never make any typing errors. I stand corrected , yeah ok i know, i know i cant spell...now do u feel superior little girl??? I know its hard but try not to be jealous that u are lacking in education, just remember ....you're never too old to learn!! :)
communications and phych are considered "cookie-cutter" degrees. They are what High School Jocks and low achievers shoot for because they are about as challenging as 8th grade lit. By the way, if you MAJORED in Comm and MINORED in psyche, how do you have 2 degrees?
scorpio
05-05-2004, 10:04 PM
getting back to the original post....
while I think it was sad that this guy was obviously lonely and needy, he did make the decision to get drunk at a strip club, a place where guys have been known to drop lots of money on a fantasy, and he did decide to latch onto this particular female. Is it wrong to take advantage of his drunkeness and his needyness...maybe. Someone brought up Kharma, and how "taking advantage" of the poor drunk sod would come back to haunt the dancer...did anyone consider that maybe, just maybe, this guy was one of those prime assholes who gets 10 dances and then says "uh, I'm out of money"or tries to stick his hands up your ya ya, or whatever...maybe Kharma was visiting him.
NinaDaisy
05-05-2004, 10:29 PM
I've never taken advantage of men in clubs that come in looking for love, but I have done my share of rooms with guys that just want to hug you for a while, rub your back, etc...
I rarely go into a room with someone off the bat, but I have once refused a room with a customer that was extremely aggressive in conjunction with his drunkenness, and given dances to guys who wouldn't go to the VIP because I wasn't giving them what their drunk ass wanted.
And I definitely agree with Jay Zeno: "I bet most guys who would protest about ripoff dancers who clean out a drunk still wouldn't mind getting a huge chunk of extra milege when a dancer gets drunk. That stuff works both ways."
smittenkitten
05-05-2004, 11:26 PM
I wouldn't really consider it a hyperbole, but I understand your point. Whether you're keeping the extra change at the store, 'cheating' a drunk guy out of his money or attacking the diminuitive single woman in the parking lot, you're still capitalizing on someone else's vulnerabilities. The kid at Walmart relies on the accuracy of his register to keep his job. If he screws up and gives you $20 instead of $2, he's now vulnerable. He can't chase you down in the parking lot and demand the $18 back. He is relying on you to point out the error and help him keep his job. The guy at the club is drunk and is both emotionally and rationally impaired. He is now vulnerable and relies on the people who aren't drunk to keep him from doing something stupid. The girl in the parking lot is relying on the general good nature of society to help keep her safe. Deciding to take advantage of any of these situations SHOULD be the same offense. And that's a whole 'situational ethics' issue (and a somewhat religious one, too) that I have neither the energy nor the inclination to get into. I just think that regardless of the circumstances, the 'crime' is the same. I got my kids' pictures taken at The Picture People and they screwed up the pictures, lost the negatives, took FOREVER, etc. I was annoyed. I paid, and they rang up one of my free sheets but forgot to punch my card. I only felt moderately guilty because they screwed up and it annoyed me. But I SHOULD have felt just as guilty as if I had broken into the register and walked out with $1000. Unfortunately, I know I wouldn't feel as guilty. But I believe I should. Sure, Walmart-boy should pay more attention, drunkguy shouldn't get tanked, and rape-girl should've taken extra precautions. There's plenty of support for Darwin on the flip side. I know there are die-hards out there who really don't mind screwing or being screwed. I don't understand it, but I can respect that they hold to their own standards. But I would think that most of us (myself incuded) wouldn't want to be intentionally screwed (even in the slightest way), and so we shouldn't screw anyone else either. Obviously that's easier said than done, and I am not suggesting that I live by this policy. I try, but... well, I'm human - and not a great one at that. I don't think that everyone should rely on someone else and no one needs to take responsibilty for their actions. I'm not a socialist. I also don't think that we should seize every opportunity that comes our way simply because it's there for the taking. I'm not a capitalist either. I think maybe I'm just an idealist. And I'm a cynic. I can sit here and tell you how I think it SHOULD be and also realize that we're all human and it is NEVER going to be that way. But I think the world would be a better place if we could stop trying to rationalize away all our transgressions. Rape isn't the same as swindling. But the motivation behind it is. (IMO)
erotictonic
05-06-2004, 06:00 AM
Vegasvixen1...How can you think you have two degrees when you only have ONE associate's degree?
You answered an education pole and stated that you had an associate's degree and were planning to go back to finish your bachelor's degree.
I don't mean to attack you personally, but I notice you lashing out at others on so many forums.
Good work, nopinkstars! :detective:
Quote from vegasvillain in the education thread:
A.S. degree in communications...currently taking 1 or two years off to travel and make $$$$ to finish my B.A. probably in journalism. (graduated with honors from my other college)
Now that not only makes you an ignorant idiot and an insufferable, hawty bitch, but it also makes you an uneducated (I can say that because I have a bachelor of science degree ;)) , fucking liar! You've certainly made a lot of friends in the stripper world on this board.... Your actions speak for themselves, you fucking moron. :dunce:
I really totally dislike people who LIE, and have a "holier-than-thou" attitude at the same time, all the while being a stupid child who needs to learn a billion lessons. That LIE really did it for me..... I fucking hate little bitchy liars - probably because my ex used the same techniques to abuse.
Why has this child not been banished from our lovely forums? You don't waltz in here and start insulting experienced women who are 10 to 20 years your Senior and could run circles around you mentally. I don't care if you research til you're blue in the face, some people know things you don't - they've been there and done that. She was fighting with and insulting Melonie for Christ's sakes. You are 22 and face it, you have the mentality of a 16 year old. Good luck in life because you'll need it.
:gnasher: :beat: :banghead:
VenusGoddess
05-06-2004, 07:12 AM
Vegasvixen1...How can you think you have two degrees when you only have ONE associate's degree?
You answered an education pole and stated that you had an associate's degree and were planning to go back to finish your bachelor's degree.
I don't mean to attack you personally, but I notice you lashing out at others on so many forums.
Good work, nopinkstars! :detective:
Quote from vegasvillain in the education thread:
A.S. degree in communications...currently taking 1 or two years off to travel and make $$$$ to finish my B.A. probably in journalism. (graduated with honors from my other college)
Now that not only makes you an ignorant idiot and an insufferable, hauty bitch, but it also makes you an uneducated (I can say that because I have a bachelor of science degree ;)) , fucking liar! Boy have you made your name around here, ya' fucking brat. You've certainly made a lot of friends in the stripper world on this board.... Your actions speak for themselves, you fucking moron. :dunce:
I really totally dislike people who LIE, and have a "holier-than-thou" attitude at the same time, all the while being a stupid child who needs to learn a billion lessons.
That LIE really did it for me..... I fucking hate little bitchy liars - probably because my ex used the same techniques to abuse.
Why has this child not been banished from our lovely forums? You don't waltz in here and start insulting experienced women who are 10 to 20 years your Senior and could run circles around you mentally. I don't care if you research til you're blue in the face, some people know things you don't - they've been there and done that. She was arguing with and insulting Melonie for Christ's sakes. You are 22 and face it, you have the mentality of a 16 year old. Good luck in life because you'll need it.
:gnasher: :beat: :banghead:
OMG...can you say BUSTED?!?! :footinmouth: VegasVixen...the bona fide liar, cheat, and snotty ass brat has been put into her place, everyone! :beat: :cheers:
Although, Erotictonic, I would totally have to disagree with you about the being 22 and having the mentality of a 16 year old. What were you thinking? She has the mentality of a 6 year old. :D
Wwanderer
05-06-2004, 07:58 AM
I think that it is interesting to compare the responses to the story that initiated this thread to those in the "$5000 dancer theft foiled" thread. Roughly speaking I think the question of whether or not it is proper/ethical to take advantage of the diminished capability (to make rational decisions) of a very drunk customer is controversial; some think it is ok while others do not. However, very few see picking a customer's pocket as acceptable dancer behavior.
Imo, this is because there is a sort of "game" going on between customers and dancers in a typical strip club; the dancers are trying to get as much money as possible while allowing as few "intimacies" as they can manage while the customers are trying for as much "mileage" as possible for as little cost as they can manage. Like a lot of such "games" (poker and many sports would be other examples), the rules are different, sometimes quite different, from those the same people would observe in normal everyday life, but it is OK because those "playing" have voluntarily entered into the "game" and accepted its rules. But there are definite rules, or norms of behavior, nevertheless...some clear and some controversial.
Fwiiw there has been a very extended discussion of this point in another net forum in which I participate, and threads here have been cited in that discussion. Some argue that most dancers are simply dishonest and unprincipled con artists who prey on the weaknesses of their customers, while I and others have argued along the "game with special rules" line described above (referred to as a "special ethical arena" or just "special arena" in that other forum). If you are inclined to read that discussion, it can be found at
http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/t12682.html
in part, but be warned that it is enormously long, over 65 pages and 2000+ separate posts (not all on exactly this topic, to be sure...but much of it is)!
-Ww
Lilith
05-06-2004, 08:26 AM
I've seen the article concerning strippers and, if such attitudes are prevailing at that site, then I shall have to tender my regrets. Assumptions, typecasting and hyperbole have no place in a debate and those three things seem to be at the core of their philosophy on strippers.
Lilith
05-06-2004, 08:29 AM
SmittenKitten
Surely it is a simple and obvious thing to realize that the woman raped and the clerk stiffed $18 in his register are not equally traumatized. Think about the ramifications of comparing the two as true equals, and then come back; unfortunately, I refuse to take advantage of the mentally impaired even in a battle of wits.
Wwanderer
05-06-2004, 08:40 AM
I've seen the article concerning strippers and, if such attitudes are prevailing at that site, then I shall have to tender my regrets. Assumptions, typecasting and hyperbole have no place in a debate and those three things seem to be at the core of their philosophy on strippers.
I am not quite sure if you are referring to my post and if you mean utopiaguide.com (UG) by "that site", but if so, I would say that you are right that many of the regulars there have a pretty negative attitude towards strippers. Quite a few dancers who have started posting there have ended up leaving after a while due to what I consider an often unfriendly or hostile atmosphere. So, you may well be right to give it a pass. On the other hand, there is a significant minority on UG who have different points of view, and overall I think UG has an uncommonly experienced, insightful and articulate community, so there are often interesting perspectives expressed. It definitely is not a place for the thin skinned, but it can be quite interesting at times, in other words.
-Ww
Rayleen
05-06-2004, 01:50 PM
with a minor in psych.
ok people now that's just downright funny :D
Weluckyfew
05-06-2004, 02:22 PM
wow...sorry i started the hullabaloo
For what it's worth I have no degrees, never been to college. My IQ? Probably about room temperature. My intelligence level (or lack thereof) can be judged from my posts - I think everyone here has said enough in various threads that anyone will be able to tell whether they're "intelligent" or not, without the use of yardsticks like degrees or IQ numbers.
Besides, unless we're talking about specific knowledge (science, law) what does it matter? A janitor could have just as intelligent an opinion as a lawyer about morality, current events, human relations...
Just my uneducated opinion.
doc-catfish
05-06-2004, 02:58 PM
:lurk:
Whoops, sorry. I was looking for the thread on the ethics of dealing with drunken customers, not the rambling back and forth thread on seeing who is smarter, or who is allowed to state an opinion, or what does/doesn't constitute a college degree. Anyone know where I can find it?
:no idea:
Perhaps I should have taken that left turn at Alberquerque. Silly me. Carry on everyone.
???
smittenkitten
05-06-2004, 03:18 PM
No - They aren't equally traumatized. But I feel that whoever is 'taking advantage' of either situation should feel equally guilty. I'm mentally impaired because I try to hold myself to a higher standard of morals than society imposes on us? Wow, maybe that's why we live in such a cesspool...
LoveSexMoney
05-06-2004, 07:47 PM
Oh, that annoys me to NO end. UGHH... Have you ever seen the Boy Scouts do carwashes? Or the local motorhead club? I haven't anyway. Every fundraising carwash I pass (with my admittedly dirty and likely to remain that way car) is always being promoted by girls in cropped shirts and micro shorts. I know it's summer, but come on! I passed one the other day that was a cheerleader carwash (lol, suck the drool back in). It just really annoyed me. I'm cool with selling 'sex' - in the right place and in the right context, but I don't think a local high school sponsoring that is the right context at all. Aside from that - being a woman and 'working the angle' is commendable, very feminine, and worthy of envy when it's subtle. When it's this big blatant cheerleader, wet t-shirt contest, Cool Hand Luke carwash scene cliche, it just annoys me. What challenge is there in selling out to the masses? Just a rant. If you insist on selling 'sex' on a street corner next to my kids' playground, at least come up with something better than 'DelVal College Cheerleaders Car Wash'.
no shit, huh? now that you mention it, I'm gonna scope out the line next time I drive by one and see who's waiting to get their car washed. (too bad there's no masturbating pervert smiley to insert here) They'd probably raise more money if they just set up a collection box with a sign detailing what they're raising money for ie: uniforms, senior trip whatever.
totally off topic I know but who cares at this point?
LoveSexMoney
05-06-2004, 07:48 PM
:lurk:
Whoops, sorry. I was looking for the thread on the ethics of dealing with drunken customers, not the rambling back and forth thread on seeing who is smarter, or who is allowed to state an opinion, or what does/doesn't constitute a college degree. Anyone know where I can find it?
:no idea:
Perhaps I should have taken that left turn at Alberquerque. Silly me. Carry on everyone.
???
You can find it at Pismo Beach *snicker*
lestat1
05-06-2004, 08:37 PM
I'm sorry I brought up the IQ thing. I wasn't trying to get into some intelligence discussion or to imply that a high IQ makes one more right or valid over a lower IQ. It's also only one measure of one type of intelligence. I was only trying to dispute polecat's implication that any failure to understand his post was because of poor reading comprehension, rather than a failure to explain himself clearly.
More generally speaking and regarding all posts....
Coming from somewhat of a communications background, I know it's the author's responsibility to explain themselves in any form of communication (book, article, TV ad, forum post, political speech, etc.) If they don't, all they've achieved is wasting their own time and failed to communicate their idea (the point of communication being to convey some idea to another person(s), obviously!)
I'm assuming polecat was trying to communicate his idea to us, rather than practice his typing skills or waste site bandwith. If I'm speaking to a class of third graders, it's my responsibility to explain the topic clearly in a way that they can comprehend, and not their fault if they fail to understand.
Just something I'd like to see us all keep in mind, since I think it could improve the quality of the forums and prevent a lot needless bickering.
-lestat1