View Full Version : Graphic Pic (War)
DJ_Duane
05-15-2004, 04:37 PM
No Muslim cleric will speak up and condemn this action. No, none of that. "Allah is great" - no thank you, if Allah condones brutally cutting off the heads of civilians hired to restore power to Iraq then I allah is an evil bastard indeed.
I did a search for the Muslim organisations here in the United States and around the world to see what their reactions would be to the Nick Berg killing.
The Nick Berg murder was condemned by the Islamic Society of North America
http://www.isna.net/news/miniheadlines.asp?dismode=article&artid=322th America
So did The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR)
http://www.cair-net.org/asp/article.asp?id=33237&page=NB
The American Muslim Voice (AMV) condemned it
http://www.amuslimvoice.org/html/statements_on_iraq.html
Muslim Public Affairs Council condemned it
http://www.mpac.org/
Three Arab states -- Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates --- have condemned Berg's murder.
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/13/iraq.berg/index.html
Beheading condemned by Hamas and Hizbollah
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=521094
I could, I think have found more. But, I think the Nick Berg's killers have little support in the Islamic World for what they did.
When I worked in Radio, back in 1991, I received the press releases from Muslim organisations condemning the 9-11 attacks. Despite this, I often heard people in the mainstream media say that there was "a deafening silence" from the world's Muslims about the attacks and that "not a single Muslim organisation or government condemned the 9-11 terrorist attacks". The truth is, that most Muslims are against terrorism and murder. It's only the ones who are in favor of it that get any coverage in the Press.
Let's not repeat the same mistake that was made by the Press after 9-11.
Rhiannon
05-15-2004, 07:33 PM
thanks everyone , I was wrong the bottom line isnt what i said before...it is that we HAVE TO BRING OUR BOYS / GIRLS HOME NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! there is nothing worth salvaging over there, unless of course you are the bush family from TEXAS which means you have ALOT of monetary interest in oil...well guess what fuckers, no amount of money is worth my husband's life or anyone elses!!!!!!!! (sorry had to yell) we have to bring our boy's home asap and the only way that will happen is to get bush the fuck out of there NOW!!!!! excuse my french.
Hell Fookin Yeah! I'm with ya, Vegas.
Dj Duane, You are correct, and thanks for pointing that out. But in my opinion, not nearly enough of the Muslims have condemned the acts of terrorism, and downright inhumanity. I understand that not all Muslim groups support terrorism, but a lot of them do. They're not all bad, but the good ones are too few and far between.
I do agree with you though, on the point that we only see the "evil side" of the Muslim society. The media seems to only care about what will get the most attention. It's sad, but very true.
But, we need to bring our men and women home. Like I said earlier in the thread, it won't be a fast process, they will have to withdraw gradually. But, that is what needs to be done.
Farrah_Holiday
05-15-2004, 08:21 PM
No Muslim cleric will speak up and condemn this action. No, none of that. "Allah is great" - no thank you, if Allah condones brutally cutting off the heads of civilians hired to restore power to Iraq then I allah is an evil bastard indeed.
I did a search for the Muslim organisations here in the United States and around the world to see what their reactions would be to the Nick Berg killing.
The Nick Berg murder was condemned by the Islamic Society of North America
http://www.isna.net/news/miniheadlines.asp?dismode=article&artid=322th America
So did The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR)
http://www.cair-net.org/asp/article.asp?id=33237&page=NB
The American Muslim Voice (AMV) condemned it
http://www.amuslimvoice.org/html/statements_on_iraq.html
Muslim Public Affairs Council condemned it
http://www.mpac.org/
Three Arab states -- Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates --- have condemned Berg's murder.
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/13/iraq.berg/index.html
Beheading condemned by Hamas and Hizbollah
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=521094
I could, I think have found more. But, I think the Nick Berg's killers have little support in the Islamic World for what they did.
When I worked in Radio, back in 1991, I received the press releases from Muslim organisations condemning the 9-11 attacks. Despite this, I often heard people in the mainstream media say that there was "a deafening silence" from the world's Muslims about the attacks and that "not a single Muslim organisation or government condemned the 9-11 terrorist attacks". The truth is, that most Muslims are against terrorism and murder. It's only the ones who are in favor of it that get any coverage in the Press.
Let's not repeat the same mistake that was made by the Press after 9-11.
Thanks for posting the links Duane..Sometimes people condemn a whole group of people based on the actions of a few. Its important to remember the majority of Muslims do not approve of these actions.
Melonie
05-16-2004, 07:11 AM
IMHO I also agree that withdrawing and tightening up our own borders makes sense in the short term. However, this it definitely going to have consequences which will affect each and every American. For example, if we are cut off from middle east oil again, it will mean gasoline, oil, natural gas, and every other form of energy will be in very short supply and very expensive. This would very well mean gasoline rationing, which would bring commuter economies in California and the northeast to a grinding halt. This could also very well mean rolling electricity blackouts. And while not immediately obvious, this would also mean a huge increase in the price of products which require a lot of energy to produce, beginning with food (yes fertilizer production and corporate farming techniques are very energy intensive). Massive increases in electricity and gas/oil prices would accelerate the export of US industries and good paying US jobs.
However, very few registered US voters actually understand the consequences to life in the USA if middle east oil is allowed to fall under the control of islamic fanatics. I'm old enough to vaguely remember sitting in a car with my mother at a gas station for hours to buy enough gas so that my father could trade cars with her and drive to work for the next two days, until she would have to wait in gas station lines for hours all over again.
These consequences reall don't matter much to me now because I own my own home and land where I can grow a lot of my own food, where I can cut and burn firewood instead of buying fuel oil or natural gas etc., and because I can do much of my business from home over the internet so that I don't have to travel. But for someone living in a city, who may face a 50% rent increase to cover higher heating/cooling costs, who may face a 50% increase in grocery store prices, who may face another "downsizing" as their employer exports jobs overseas to avoid rising costs of doing business in the US, and who may wind up spending hours in gas station lines in order to get to work the next day, it could be a very different story !
It's an unfortunate fact that cheap, available middle east oil is a cornerstone of many US policies. These policies include such things as deciding NOT to drill for oil in ANWR or offshore from US coasts, deciding NOT to build new nuclear power plants near major cities in CA and the northeast, deciding NOT to allow industry to burn coal for fuel the way they used to in order to reduce pollution etc. Cheap, available energy is also a cornerstone which allows US federal and state governments to be able to tax businesses and still allow them to earn a profit on US operations, in lieu of taxing individuals as highly as they would otherwise have to if US businesses were unable to pay part of the tax bill. Therefore pulling out of the middle east and allowing mideast oil shipments to the USA to be cut off goes much deeper than just the "war".
DancerWealth
05-16-2004, 10:20 AM
It is sad!! However, there is pictures of American soldiers posing and laughing as Iraqi POW's were being brutalized! It goes both ways.
It doesn't go both ways. The two events are hardly comparable. One event was a woman laughing at a naked Iraqi (one who had already murdered American soldiers) and his genitals. This was paraded on every newspaper front page across the world and was the topic of discussion for two weeks in the media. The other event was a room full of pro-Saddam supporters sitting an American down on a chair, telling him he is the "great satan" and using a dull knife, slowly slicing his head off until you couldn't hear his screams anymore as the knife cut through his vocal cords and proceeded to decapitate him. Let me make this even more clear here...they beheaded him with a dull knife that took approximately 20 seconds. Sounds like fun, doesn't it? Then, as they finished the beheading, they waived his head up in front of the cameras that were taping this incident and cheered to Allah. Funny, how this event made the papers on page 5 and was barely talked about for more than a day.
So on one hand, you have a few American soldiers (less than 20 out of more than 140,000 there) embarrasing some Iraqi murders and the world demans us to appologize and then you have some pro-Saddam soldiers slowly and brutally murdering an American and there are no demands for appologies, no Iraqi leaders condemning the incident, and no world rallyies behind the United States and the rest of the coalition. This is the difference here. This is the reason why I know us being over there is the right thing to do. What the media isn't showing you are all the scenes of Iraqi families blessing American soldiers for liberating their country. You aren't hearing from the people who were spared their life by us being there by being thrown feet-first into a tree shredder as Saddam was so known to do. You aren't hearing the thank-you's by the women who are crying at the feet of Americans over there because they no longer are subject to the rape-rooms that were so common. The media doesn't want you to hear these strories because to them, it doesn't fit into their agenda, it isn't newsworthy, and it's on par with a "cat got stuck in the tree" story. There are several things I'm hot happy with about the Bush administration. This isn't one of them though and personally, I'm happy we are there, I'm happy we are staying, and I look forward to the day when the people of Iraq can have their country back to run the way it should be run, and not by some Hitlerian dictator who gasses his own people and would drop a nuke on New York City just as fast as he would have allies fly 757s into our skyscrapers.
Richard_Head
05-16-2004, 11:07 AM
I did a search for the Muslim organisations here in the United States and around the world to see what their reactions would be to the Nick Berg killing.
The Nick Berg murder was condemned by the Islamic Society of North America
http://www.isna.net/news/miniheadlines.asp?dismode=article&artid=322th America
So did The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR)
http://www.cair-net.org/asp/article.asp?id=33237&page=NB
The American Muslim Voice (AMV) condemned it
http://www.amuslimvoice.org/html/statements_on_iraq.html
Muslim Public Affairs Council condemned it
http://www.mpac.org/
Three Arab states -- Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates --- have condemned Berg's murder.
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/13/iraq.berg/index.html
Beheading condemned by Hamas and Hizbollah
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=521094
I could, I think have found more. But, I think the Nick Berg's killers have little support in the Islamic World for what they did.
Colin Powell doesn't seem to agree with you, I pulled up a few interesting quotes from the link below:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-05-16-bush-approval-poll_x.htm?csp=24
Powell: Arab response to Berg insufficientWASHINGTON (AP) — "Secretary of State Colin Powell scolded Arab governments Sunday for not expressing more outrage over the videotaped beheading of an American civilian in Iraq."
"Powell said he has made clear, specifically to Arab leaders, that systematic torture of prisoners is unacceptable anywhere. Yet, he said, their denunciation of the killing of Nicholas Berg, kidnapped while in Iraq seeking business for his Pennsylvania communication company, fell far short of their attacks on the United States for the treatment of detainees at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison."
I also found these comments very interesting in regards to torture techniques of those very same Arab nations:
"In its report on human rights around the world in 2003, Amnesty International said the countries in the Middle East and North Africa used widespread abusive tactics "in the name of 'combating terrorism."
In addition, the report said, "The region continued to suffer from judicial and extrajudicial executions, widespread use of torture and unfair trials."
On Fox, Powell said: "Torture of any kind is unacceptable, and Arab leaders need to look at what's happening in their own societies. They need to reform their societies."
Djoser
05-16-2004, 11:51 AM
If the Iraqi people REALLY wanted us there, they would wholeheartedly join with us in hunting down and eradicating the kind of scum that are blowing up our troops. In spite of the PR, this isn't happening, not enough to lower the rising US death count.
Accusing the media of liberal bias is quite common, but I suspect that the media is actually whitewashing just how bad it is over there, for the poor soldiiers having to patrol areas where people want to kill them. Yes, the Iraqis welcomed us alright--for a couple of weeks--now they just want to kill us.
I am revolted and outraged by the hideous death of Berg, but if Bush hadn't invaded Iraq and botched it so badly, he'd be alive today.
And while I don't want the oil of the Middle East to be controlled by Islamic extremists, I notice that the price has climbed FAR more rapidly since we invaded than it did before. Most of the price increase has occured since it became apparent, through our increasing casualties, that we are not wanted over there...
montythegeek
05-16-2004, 01:08 PM
DJ
Substitute 2 words sets with each other.
Iraqi, and American
terrorism, and gun violence on the streets
What do you get . . . The 2,000 Mom March on Mother's Day
More people voted and cared about the results on "American Idol" than protested the War last week.
Farrah_Holiday
05-16-2004, 01:43 PM
More people voted and cared about the results on "American Idol" than protested the War last week.
You do have a point there Monty.
Melonie
05-16-2004, 03:04 PM
If the Iraqi people REALLY wanted us there, they would wholeheartedly join with us in hunting down and eradicating the kind of scum that are blowing up our troops. In spite of the PR, this isn't happening, not enough to lower the rising US death count.
DJ, you've really hit on a central point here. Do you suppose that if Iraqi's were NOT hearing the US media and liberal politicians advocating withdrawl from Iraq on satellite TV that they'd be a little more confident in helping the coalition. As it is, they know their lives aren't worth a plugged nickel if they were to provide intelligence info to the coalition, but then have US forces abruptly pull out, with real political power in Iraq reverting to the most extreme muslim extremists ! But as long as Teddy Kennedy and a host of liberal politicians, CNN & CBS commentators etc. keep calling for US troop withdrawl and an end to the Iraq war, many Iraqis are hedging their bets. I'd do exactly the same thing if I was in their position.
IMHO I'll even go one step further and state that the liberal US politicians and TV commentators denouncing the US military presence in Iraq are in fact costing the lives of US soldiers there, because of exactly this reason ! Their denunciations also provide a morale boost to the islamic extremists, who believe that they may have a chance of prevailing if only they cause enough horrific images to show up on US TV news. If nothing else, the denunciations and anti-war news coverage bias cause a lot of distortion in the actual facts of the Iraq conflict being put in proper perspective. The congressional hearings over prisoner abuse, versus the page 5 coverage of the beheading (plus some conspiracy theory thrown in to somehow try and link the victim to islamic extremist groups), are about as blatant of an example as one could imagine.
erotictonic
05-16-2004, 03:14 PM
Isn't that video just lovely? That is enough to instill hatred in me. I am so disgusted. Those fuckers need to die.
Kaiyla
05-16-2004, 03:34 PM
I can't do it. I clicked the link three times to watch the video, but every time the clip began I had to stop it again. I just even bring myself to watch it. Not because it's graphic but because if I hear that poor guy scream, it'll haunt me for the rest of my life. Those people arent even human, they're like f*cking animals.
Rhiannon
05-16-2004, 07:24 PM
Digital...
I downloaded the full version of the video so that I could show my hubby. I saved it to my computer, in case it was taken off the site. The full version is nearly 6 minutes long, and the majority of it is the hooded bastard behind Nick Berg reading out a 3 page (or more) statement. But in the beginning, Nick is seated in a chair, identifying himself, saying where he lived, who his parents are, and his brother and sister. The last 30 seconds or so is when the beheading takes place. During the reading of the statement, Nick is seated on the floor, with the 5 men standing behind him. You see Nick's blank stare, and he occasionally moves from side to side. He never made a sound during the statement. The only sound he made, will haunt me for a very long time. If anyone does watch this video, or any version of it, I seriously suggest that you turn your sound off. If anyone wants the full version, you can PM me. I don't know how long I'll keep it on my PC. I said I was deleting it right after I had watched it, but I've kept it so far.
Katrine
05-16-2004, 09:23 PM
I can't do it....can't bear to watch it, too emotionally volatile right now....I also couldn't bear to look at dead Udday/Quassay despite whoever they were in life.
I love horror movies, but not when the theoretically civilized world we live in becomes a horror reality show....
Djoser
05-17-2004, 01:26 AM
Well, Melonie, you and Monty both raise excellent points, except for the beheading being on page 5. I don't know what newspapers you have seen, but every one I have read has had it where it belongs, on top of page 1, with bold headlines.
Obviously I disagree with the people who want us to stay in Iraq, but I think we would all like to see those five f**kers who killed Berg dead.
BTW, what is the deal with his arrest and detention by the US (!) just a short time before his execution? Something tells me we aren't getting the whole story.
polecat
05-17-2004, 03:58 AM
BTW, what is the deal with his arrest and detention by the US (!) just a short time before his execution? Something tells me we aren't getting the whole story.
We're not getting the full story.
Historical media reports that Nick Berg was investigated by the FBI prior to his even leaving for Iraq for two rather unusual coincidences:
1) Nick Berg trained at a flight school in Oklahoma, the same place several of the 9/11 terrorists also trained at the same time interval.
2) The FBI investigated Nick Berg as Zacharias Moussaoui (yes, one of the terrorists from 9/11) was using his University username/password for internet access and communications with terrorists abroad. Nick Berg was cleared of further investigation by exclaiming he had no idea/must have just not been very careful for it to fall into their hands.
Nick was detained in Iraq, and according to his parents, was disallowed any contact with the outside world. The FBI also claims that after they were satisfied with his interrogation, they offerred him chartered, secured flight out of Iraq which he refused.
No idea of the validity of all these reports, but all of the above can be referenced from numerous sources.
montythegeek
05-17-2004, 04:39 AM
I suspect Mr. Berg raised quite a few eyebrows in Mosul with several stamps on his passport from Israel, no firm plans, not exactly the greatest reason for being there, no official connections, and a last name which would drive a paranoid culture over the edge. Since the world over there is not optimally set up to deal with tourist snafus. He could well have been chucked in a corner and beaucracatized.
As much as his FBI file had some weird stuff on it. (and I understand it was because he indirectly loaned his account to someone who emailed ZM) no one was in a hurry to make sure he had a nice day. He could have agrevated the situation by his attitude, who knows.
We will find out eventually find out, but if it is all innocent it will end up on page 47.
Tigerlilly
05-17-2004, 12:35 PM
We will find out eventually find out, but if it is all innocent it will end up on page 47.
Unfortunatly, that's the sad truth of the matter :(
Sparkell
05-17-2004, 11:56 PM
BTW, what is the deal with his arrest and detention by the US (!) just a short time before his execution? Something tells me we aren't getting the whole story.
We're not getting the full story.
Historical media reports that Nick Berg was investigated by the FBI prior to his even leaving for Iraq for two rather unusual coincidences:
1) Nick Berg trained at a flight school in Oklahoma, the same place several of the 9/11 terrorists also trained at the same time interval.
2) The FBI investigated Nick Berg as Zacharias Moussaoui (yes, one of the terrorists from 9/11) was using his University username/password for internet access and communications with terrorists abroad. Nick Berg was cleared of further investigation by exclaiming he had no idea/must have just not been very careful for it to fall into their hands.
Nick was detained in Iraq, and according to his parents, was disallowed any contact with the outside world. The FBI also claims that after they were satisfied with his interrogation, they offerred him chartered, secured flight out of Iraq which he refused.
No idea of the validity of all these reports, but all of the above can be referenced from numerous sources.
ive heard these things 2....