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Milion
06-04-2004, 09:06 PM
Now iv'e done my fair share of research on black history, and the struggles HISTORICALLY african american's had to face. But my fiance is 100 percent irish, and had to face similar injustices. I dont see irish men taking advantage of English women in the club settings.


I am astonished that you feel that you can compare the struggles of the Irish to the struggles of a people that have been enslaved and can be identified as soon as they walk into a room, by their skin color. There is no comparison.

Also, there are plenty of rappers out there that still talk about the struggle. They typically don't make mainstream radio though because it's not what the general public wants to hear. Fight the power type songs don't generally make for good club music. lol

At any rate, here's what I think about the thread. There are plenty of beautiful, classy ethnic women that can't get hired at upscale clubs due to discriminating managers. I've seen it happen a lot. It is a sad thing. I work in Atlanta at a predominantly black club now (which by the way does hire white girls and they also seem to do pretty well when they work there.). We do "booty-shake" at my club, but that doesn't make it ghetto or the dancers not intelligent. We make great money and have a lot of black businessmen, athletes, music artists, and the like as customers. I enjoy working at my club. The constant party atmosphere with guys "popping bottles" and throwing money everywhere makes it tons of fun.

Still, I make sure that I can always handle other types of customers as well by regularly dancing and traveling to other clubs.

Blade
06-04-2004, 09:25 PM
I am astonished that you feel that you can compare the struggles of the Irish to the struggles of a people that have been enslaved and can be identified as soon as they walk into a room, by their skin color. There is no comparison.


No comparison? I am a decendant of an Irish slave....and I am a red- haired Irishman, know what that makes me to my own people? Black Irish, that's what.In todays terms that would make me an irish (insert racial slur here) to be blunt.
I'm not trying to cause waves... just thought that I would point out that Irishmen were once slaves also.

tampafldancer
06-04-2004, 09:42 PM
Now iv'e done my fair share of research on black history, and the struggles HISTORICALLY african american's had to face. But my fiance is 100 percent irish, and had to face similar injustices. I dont see irish men taking advantage of English women in the club settings.


I am astonished that you feel that you can compare the struggles of the Irish to the struggles of a people that have been enslaved and can be identified as soon as they walk into a room, by their skin color. There is no comparison.

Also, there are plenty of rappers out there that still talk about the struggle. They typically don't make mainstream radio though because it's not what the general public wants to hear. Fight the power type songs don't generally make for good club music. lol

At any rate, here's what I think about the thread. There are plenty of beautiful, classy ethnic women that can't get hired at upscale clubs due to discriminating managers. I've seen it happen a lot. It is a sad thing. I work in Atlanta at a predominantly black club now (which by the way does hire white girls and they also seem to do pretty well when they work there.). We do "booty-shake" at my club, but that doesn't make it ghetto or the dancers not intelligent. We make great money and have a lot of black businessmen, athletes, music artists, and the like as customers. I enjoy working at my club. The constant party atmosphere with guys "popping bottles" and throwing money everywhere makes it tons of fun.

Still, I make sure that I can always handle other types of customers as well by regularly dancing and traveling to other clubs
[/quote


Thank you dj blade for clarifying that. African americans were definitely not the only people discriminated against. Do your research.
Also, the music is mainstream for a reason.

Milion
06-04-2004, 09:57 PM
I did not say that African-Americans were the only group discriminated against, but a Black person can be discriminated against as soon as they walk into a room, because of their skin color. Do you see my point?

And yes, certain music is mainstream for a reason. It's what the general public wants to hear. If you read my last post well, you would have seen that I already said that. Perhaps you shouldn't take my post as a personal affront and see that I make valid points as well.

tampafldancer
06-04-2004, 10:12 PM
i have to disagree with that. My friends grandmother to this day still tries to hide the fact that she is italian.

My last club owners were 100 percent Italian, you have no idea what kind of ridicule they did endure from the community.

I could name the names they were called, but i don't feel the need to.

I walk into a room (not saying what race i am) and i HAVE been ridiculed.

tampafldancer
06-04-2004, 10:15 PM
i do agree that you have made valid points, im not tring to fight with anyone here. But I WOULD like to widen perspectives on this subject.
I don't see anywhere in my last post where i have made what you said into a "personal affront."

sander8son
06-04-2004, 10:33 PM
irish people weren't really slaves in america. they were merely second class citizens. "irish need not apply" signs used to be in abundance in the early stages of the country. so, although they weren't chattel, they were prohibbitted from basically making wage.

this does compare to the struggles of the slaves, however, present day i think its safe to say there is more negative discrimination towards blacks than towards the irish. afterall, its hard to tell someone is of irish heritage from appearance versus someone of african heritatge.

know what i hate. the term "ethnic". not so much the word, but its usage to describe anyone who isn't white. i have three ethnicities. im ethnic irish, ethnic english, and ethnic french-canadian. so even though im more pale than casper, im still pretty freakin ethnic. so can we stop reffering to non-whites as "ethnic"?

Malibu
06-05-2004, 08:03 AM
Sander8son, good point.

For those of you highly concerned with skin colour, I can also say this, discrimination is not always based on an individual's physical racial appearance. I have been called names from people who haven't even met me! You know why? Because of my name. It voices the fact that I am foreign. This same form of racism will haunt anyone who's race is disliked by another individual. And I'm pretty sure there are people out there who've been turned down certain things because of that! And even though I was fortunately rarely called names for being black in a white community, hardly anyone would step in to stop the name calling I endured because of my birthname because it wasn't ''classed as racism''. It is terribly insulting when someone dirties my name because to me, it represents my family, who I am and where I come from. It is not another reason to abuse me.

Kinda off topic about club hiring, but I wanted to highlight that racism comes in more than the obvious form.

ladysummer
06-05-2004, 08:56 AM
I have seen many very beautiful black dancers get turned away at my club as well. I think there is still the beleif that if a club hires black dancers the clientele of the club will go downhill. It is totally untrue not to mention backwards to think that way, but many club owners still do. At my club we have only 2 black dancers out of at least 120 girls!!!

catfly
06-05-2004, 09:44 AM
I am Chinese and have been dancing for ten years in ONLY upscale clubs,and had the luck of having EXTREMELY nice housemoms show me the right ways to go about this business and have so far made QUITE a bit of money as a result.I agree with Melanie as far as blacks and Hispanics being rough around the edges.A lot of them dance to hard core rap and dance accordingly to that type of music.The reality is, the upscale clubs don't want that type of customer(younger and not so worldy) coming into their clubs.It is NOT a race issue at all.It is a class issue.All persons are attractive when they are put together well.


I totally agree. At my club, we do have several black dancers. However, only ONE I would consider classy. The rest are ghetto. 50 year old customers seem to have no interest in a mouthy black dancer.
And, I have also seen dancers, white or black, that dance to hardcore rap. This brings in the wrong type of customer - ones who try to touch us, don't tip, don't buy dances. And, they also don't like dancers who don't dance to rap (like myself). I used to work in a club that would not let us dance to any rap, or anything that sounded like rap. They would not hire black dancers. And the owner is black! I thought he was insane until I saw the effects first hand. Even last night, as soon as one black customer walks in, EVERYONE must dance to rap. So, the customers feel they are in a regular bar, and they act like it. I had one customer grab my butt, and, when he got treated like everyone else (by grabbing his hand and bending his fingers back and telling him NEVER to touch me) he called me all kinds of b*tches and ho's. Imagine that!

Topaz
06-05-2004, 09:52 AM
not all black women are ghetto...i'm not...none of my friends and associates are...and if i ever found myself desiring to dance again...some of the replys in this thread...and the nature of this business in general...just killed it...

brendalee
06-05-2004, 04:25 PM
I second that, these posts are kind of sterotypical some black girls are ghetto just like some white girls are pure white thrash. I am very well spoken and pride myself in not being ghetto. It'a kind of messed up that when you enter a club you are labeled as ghetto listening to hardcore rap and going to invite black guys into a club before you open your mouth. Since blacks only make less than 10% of the population, I doubt it will disturb your precious clubs. Stop labeling people based on what you see in rap vidoes and the media. Don't sugar coat things if you don't think that blacks have a place in strip clubs simply say so. There are plenty of white girls in clubs who love hardcore rap music, mouth off and are not cultured at all. They make a shit load of money and nobody questions them. So whats your point? It's not a question of class, It a question of ignorance and not even giving somone a chance. Guys don't give a shit if you traveled the world, listen mozart and can recite poems from Emily dickinson. All that should matter is if your gorgeous and have a sweet personality. Topaz honestly take everything that is said on here with a grain of salt. You should get into dancing for yourself and not for anyone else.

Blade
06-05-2004, 08:38 PM
I have to say a few things.. I love hardcore rap(and metal and punk etc) and damn I wish there were more black dancers at my club!Hell I wish there were more orientals also... and more brunettes and more redheads I grow tired of the blonde haired blue eyed look and want a variety of women to ogle whilst i spin some music!

exotica17
06-06-2004, 11:52 AM
I am a very ethnically mixed woman of color, and I don't dance to the butt-shakin' music either, or R & B, although so many other girls both white and of color do. The guys love it. I saw two other black girls get tons of money sprayed onto their stages everytime they went up. I was the only girl that day that did not have that happen. So maybe my club is opposite from most clubs. I must note that the customer base is usually local and military, and hardly any upper class, spending customers.

Sparkell, you are so pretty--it makes sense that you can make money wherever you go! ;)

Nina
06-07-2004, 12:21 AM
Nina...you are saying that because you are black you can make the statements that you did? So, because I am not black (and not white) I cannot make those same statements?


What are you talking about? Be specific.



There are quite a few black girls who work at my club...some of them bank, and some of them bitch, bitch, bitch how the black woman cannot make any money at this club. Bullshit.



That isn't my prob...I've never said that I have a problem making money at a mainly white club--I have however, posted that dancers of color face racism in strip clubs from managers and dancers.




Instead of sitting around complaining about the hiring practices...move on. If it's not to your liking then find something else. You know how the business is at this point in time...so now what are you going to do about it?


Sweet pea I don't sit around and complain about hiring practices, but neither will I sit around and watch the injustice continue. Every single strip club manager that I've ever worked with will tell you that whether they like it or not I have called them to task regarding unfair hiring practices. Other dancers of color know that I'll be the first person to help them out once the dancers and managers try any b.s....white dancers know that I won't tolerate any negative speech or actions from them, even if it isn't directed at me.

The nonsense that happens in this industry damn sure isn't to my liking, but I'm not the kinda girl thats gonna sit back and let it happen. I'll say one thing for racists (closeted and otherwise) they lost a lot of leverage once open lynching was curtailed, cause I'll speak my mind any time I see fit. I'm not going to bow my head, shuck and dive and accept whatever treatment is dished out. People only change when someone or something forces them to change and I'm here for a revolution baby!

Now for all of you who believe there is a chip on my shoulder it's open season.

onlythebest
06-07-2004, 12:37 AM
Some people need to move on and get a life.

Nina
06-07-2004, 12:44 AM
Some people need to move on and get a life.


I'll miss you when you leave darling :sad: :crying: :crying: ;D :bored:

onlythebest
06-07-2004, 12:46 AM
AU REVOIR!!!

Melonie
06-07-2004, 03:58 AM
I've avoided this thread like the plague so far, because this is one of those "taboo subjects" where it invariably leads to a flame war with facts being overshadowed by supposed prejudice or a backlash against supposed prejudice. But anyhow, I'll say this.

Black customer's behavior and spending habits in upscale clubs vary widely depending on the culture of the particular city that the club is located in, as well as vary widely based on the relative financial success of blacks in a particular city, as well as vary widely based on the club's "image".

For example, in Atlanta, the fact that a customer is white or black or asian makes extremely little difference. Atlanta blacks and whites and asians all get along, all participate in middle class financial success, all have money to spend in strip clubs, and all act like gentlemen more or less inside the clubs.

On the other hand, northeast clubs do not have a customer base which is anywhere near as integrated as Atlanta. With a few notable exceptions, black club customers have been more or less culturally segregated from whites or asians (both by society and to some degree by their own choice), generally do not enjoy the same sort of middle class upbringing and income levels as white or asian customers, and therefore (again with a few notable exceptions) do not have the same spending habits or the same behavior when they come to upscale clubs.

The 'cultural gap' which exists in northeast cities also tends to make white club customers very nervous when a significant number of black customers come into an upscale club and start acting quite differently than is 'normal' for that upscale club - nervous to the point of leaving and taking their money with them. Because of underlying black/white societal tensions in the northeast, there is a point where "critical mass" is reached in regard to the percentage of black customers which upscale white customers still feel comfortable around. If a club allows the percentage of black customers to exceed that "critical mass", white customers will leave in droves and not come back taking their money with them. When this happens, the club's "image" changes, dancer earnings potential drops, upscale dancers leave to follow the money etc. Northeast clubowners are not able to pick up and move their club along with the dancers, so the clubowners regulate the number of black dancers to ensure that "critical mass" is never reached at their club.

onlythebest
06-07-2004, 04:52 AM
I couldn't have said it better myself.I have stated before that it is geography that makes the difference.Thank you Melonie.

oktoberdwn
06-07-2004, 04:21 PM
Sorry but I have to disagree with some of you about Atlanta. I had posted a message in the forum a while ago about not being able to be hired in 5 different clubs in Atlanta, all considered to be "white clubs." I did end up getting into what is considered to be the best club in Atlanta. The men are not always as gentleman like as one would like to think. The majority of men are white although some black men will come in. With that said it is not unusual that the black men who do come in are not there to see black women. Yes it is about fantasy. But I will say that it is very hard for black women there. I have had many regulars tell me that so many black women had left because it can be difficult to appeal to the mostly white audience. There are definitely those men who love black women, but I do believe that because of the stereotypes we face (like thinking that we might be booty shakers or ghetto) before we even get a word out of our mouths is a problem. I am an educated black woman who refuses to dance to the hip-hop set because I don't want to be stereotyped, but as a customer told me on this past saturday, "I was surprised that you didn't sound ghetto like alot of the girls" which was his reason for not talking to me for the first 15 minutes I was sitting next to him. My skin color allows people to judge me before I even say hello.

brendalee
06-07-2004, 04:37 PM
melonie you really are so educated. I live in Boston and I can completly see the racial gaps you speak about even though Boston is considered so cultural diverse. I think the reason why I get offended with some of these posts is because they are so general and sterotypical. Some of these posts seem like there saying if you stop listening to rap music, booty shaking and acting ghetto maybe you would get hired. Clubs are in it too make money and girls are the product. There isn't as much of a demand for black girls compared to white girls or asians. Indians and Asians are in high demand because there are not to many of them in the business, making them exotic. However, there are alot of blacks trying to get into the business and many of them get turned down. Honestly when I worked at an upscale club I was the only black girl and I liked it that way. When I worked with even one other black girl it messed up my money. When I worked at a club with alot of black girls white customers would see us as discount girls and wouldn't want to pay us the same amount as a white girls. Just sit in a bachelor party service there are never any calls for black girls. You have to pull teeth for a guy to get a black girl sometimes promising money back. When I answered calls I had to describe her as malatoo with light skin. Men want blondes, asian and brunnetes with big tits. I am not saying that you won't make money. Lots of times Black girls make more money than white girls.
You have to walk in with an open mind and think about who holds the most money, rich old racist fucks.
I hate racism but it exists so much in this world how can you expect it to stay out of the clubs.

Sparkell
06-08-2004, 01:59 AM
I am a very ethnically mixed woman of color, and I don't dance to the butt-shakin' music either, or R & B, although so many other girls both white and of color do. The guys love it. I saw two other black girls get tons of money sprayed onto their stages everytime they went up. I was the only girl that day that did not have that happen. So maybe my club is opposite from most clubs. I must note that the customer base is usually local and military, and hardly any upper class, spending customers.

Sparkell, you are so pretty--it makes sense that you can make money wherever you go! ;)



:DThankies baby! :D

*end of thread for me*I dont feel like talking about this no more*

Topaz
06-08-2004, 03:43 PM
it seem that every time this topic comes up...everytime the question "why aren't there more black dancers in...?" or "why don't the clubs have more variety...?" the issue of geography or demographics comes up...

my take on that...

it seems that regardless of the size or location of a club...the size or location of the city...regardless of whether the club is upscale or a neighborhood titty bar...regardless of contact level...the answers are still the same...

"they don't have 'the look' we're after"...or...

"they don't cater to the demand of our customer base"...or...

"if we hire too many of them, they'll bring the 'undesirable element' to our club" (translation - black men)...or...

"if we hire too many of them, we'll lose money, they'll destroy our bottom line..."...or...

"i think there's a black club down the street...why don't you try there" (unspoken..."...because you're not wanted here")...the list goes on...

do any of you know how upsetting and discouraging the 'information' provided in this thread (and others like it) is?...do any of you even care?...

seems like a lot of people in this business spend more time and effort trying to discourage the sistas from making a go of it as a dancer...

well...it worked as far as i'm concerned...and as i said before...reading all of this...has killed what little dream i may have had left of ever becoming a dancer...and i already know about the black girl at your club that makes bank...

we get judged automatically...before we even open our mouths...almost always in a negative sence...everywhere we go...this is no surprise (or it shouldn't be)...but don't think that the above answers to the above questions are acceptable...legitimate...reasons to try to shut us out...

get the blow torches if you want to...this is how i interpret (sp) the replys here...and i mention black most...'cause i can only speak for me...a black woman...

THE END...

Melonie
06-08-2004, 04:22 PM
we get judged automatically...before we even open our mouths...almost always in a negative sence...everywhere we go...this is no surprise (or it shouldn't be)...but don't think that the above answers to the above questions are acceptable...legitimate...reasons to try to shut us out

What you are saying is undoubtedly true from a theoretical standpoint. However, from a clubowner's point of view, I'm sure they feel entirely justified giving out the reasons you listed. Unlike government, Clubowners can't legislate. Therefore they are forced to deal with certain facts, factoids, and perceptions which stem from their customer base - which for upscale high earnings potential clubs in northern cities is invariably comprised of white middle class men. If the clubowners err on what they consider to be the 'safe side' by limiting the number of black dancers they will allow to work in their club, they feel justified in doing so because they have a major investment which in their minds could be put at risk.

When northern cities become more like Atlanta, where blacks, whites and other minorities all live together in the suburbs, all work together at white collar jobs etc. then northern city clubowners will begin loosening up. But until then, they operate based on facts, factoids and perceptions that black club customers don't typically spend anywhere near as much money as white club customers, that large numbers of black club customers make white club customers nervous (to the point of leaving and not coming back), and that large numbers of black dancers typically attract large numbers of black club customers.

Ironically, inner city clubs which have a primarily black customer base give white dancers just as hard of a time as upscale clubs give black dancers. However, you don't hear many white dancers complaining about this. Why - because the primarily black inner city club customer base doesn't spend much money !

Topaz
06-08-2004, 04:25 PM
i rest my case...

Melonie
06-08-2004, 04:38 PM
i rest my case...

Ultimately, until society changes enough that white men no longer comprise 95% of the money spent in upscale high earnings potential strip clubs in northern cities, upscale clubowners in northern cities are not going to risk disappointing those white men such that they decide to take their business to a different club. Business 101 - the customer is always right !

Is this discouraging to black dancers ? Absolutely. (and I shouldn't even be commenting on this because I have never experienced such treatment first hand - only seen it happen to black dancers auditioning). But realistically this is not going to change significantly until the underlying tensions between blacks and whites in northern cities diminish, and until the average earnings levels (therefore spending habits) of black club customers become closer to white club customers, as is already the case in southern cities like Atlanta.

Topaz
06-08-2004, 04:44 PM
black dancers...get out of the business...'cause it's obvious that you're not wanted here...

wannabees...don't even try...'cause it's obvious that you're not wanted here either...

and look...here's the looooong explaination why....

...like i said...i rest my case...

Melonie
06-08-2004, 05:00 PM
As I said initially, this is one of those "taboo subjects", where anybody who doesn't toe a PC line, and/or attempts to inject some financial/demographic reality, is tacitly accused of being a racist.

The only way I can possibly think of to truly sort this out is for say the city of New York to pass an affirmative action law requiring all NYC clubs to fire white dancers and hire black dancers until they achieve a 27% black dancer percentage to match the NYC general population. Then let's sit back for a year and see what club earnings potentials are like for all NYC dancers and clubowners. Personally, if this were to happen, I'd be watching NYC developments from New Jersey !

Topaz
06-08-2004, 05:10 PM
my point was proven...and...well...the words 'racist' or 'racism'...are nowhere...in any of my posts here...imagine that...

Sparkell
06-08-2004, 05:11 PM
it seem that every time this topic comes up...everytime the question "why aren't there more black dancers in...?" or "why don't the clubs have more variety...?" the issue of geography or demographics comes up...

my take on that...

it seems that regardless of the size or location of a club...the size or location of the city...regardless of whether the club is upscale or a neighborhood titty bar...regardless of contact level...the answers are still the same...

"they don't have 'the look' we're after"...or...

"they don't cater to the demand of our customer base"...or...

"if we hire too many of them, they'll bring the 'undesirable element' to our club" (translation - black men)...or...

"if we hire too many of them, we'll lose money, they'll destroy our bottom line..."...or...

"i think there's a black club down the street...why don't you try there" (unspoken..."...because you're not wanted here")...the list goes on...

do any of you know how upsetting and discouraging the 'information' provided in this thread (and others like it) is?...do any of you even care?...

seems like a lot of people in this business spend more time and effort trying to discourage the sistas from making a go of it as a dancer...

well...it worked as far as i'm concerned...and as i said before...reading all of this...has killed what little dream i may have had left of ever becoming a dancer...and i already know about the black girl at your club that makes bank...

we get judged automatically...before we even open our mouths...almost always in a negative sence...everywhere we go...this is no surprise (or it shouldn't be)...but don't think that the above answers to the above questions are acceptable...legitimate...reasons to try to shut us out...

get the blow torches if you want to...this is how i interpret (sp) the replys here...and i mention black most...'cause i can only speak for me...a black woman...

THE END...


thank you...so very much!! i also feel it not the issue of geography or demographics...its just plain and simple some clubs just are racist and dont want black girls...i can deal with that but dont be like Melonie and give bull shit reasons to why we dont get hired.. a club owner will say anything to not be labled as a racist...that also includes giving any reason to not accept ethnic ladies....but like i said thats something i can for shure live with because im good at what i do...no matter were i work....if they want me there or not...

sander8son
06-08-2004, 05:28 PM
i dont think melonie is saying racism isn't driving the club owners hiring practices. i think shes saying, some are pure racists and some are opperating on what they perceive is the racist beliefs of their customers. for a business to survive they have to cater to their customers. if they think their bread and butter customers are racists, they'll hire on race.

ofcorse, i dont believe in racial quotas. why? im a white male, how does that benefit me?

Melonie
06-08-2004, 05:39 PM
and...well...the words 'racist' or 'racism'...are nowhere...in any of my posts here...imagine that


'''... tacitly accused of being a racist '''


TACIT -
Not spoken: indicated tacit approval by smiling and winking.

Implied by or inferred from actions or statements: "Management has given its tacit approval to the plan. "

(from dictionary.com)

Your posts may not have directly used the word "racist" or "racism", but they damn sure implied and inferred it ! Hey, I don't own a club - I don't make hiring decisions in regard to black dancers - no skin off my butt, however I will avoid responding to any future threads on "taboo subjects" like this one for obvious reasons.



i dont think melonie is saying racism isn't driving the club owners hiring practices. i think shes saying, some are pure racists and some are opperating on what they perceive is the racist beliefs of their customers. for a business to survive they have to cater to their customers. if they think their bread and butter customers are racists, they'll hire on race.

exactly, and stated much more bluntly than I was able to !

Bridgette
06-08-2004, 06:00 PM
owners [snip] are opperating on what they perceive is the racist beliefs of their customers. for a business to survive they have to cater to their customers. if they think their bread and butter customers are racists, they'll hire on race.

EXACTLY.

It's NOT the clubowners girls, it's the customers. The clubowners simply do their best to give the CUSTOMERS what they want. If most of the customers are racist pigs (which they are), the owners are going to hire accordingly. Plain and simple. That is all Melonie is trying to say. None of this means Melonie is racist. It means she is a realist.

Melonie
06-08-2004, 06:03 PM
If most of the customers are racist pigs (which they are), the owners are going to hire accordingly.

to be more precise, racist pigs with lots of money !

Topaz
06-08-2004, 06:25 PM
so my decision to give up on this pipe dream was a smart one then huh...

since all the customers are racist...as you all are saying...and don't want 'them nigger bitches' in the clubs...

Cali_Tiffany
06-08-2004, 06:26 PM
Toronto is the worlds most diverse city. With that being said, there are many black, hispanic, asian , white, etc...the list goes on.
The club that I work part time at is a mix ...with maybe 33% white girls. Im not sure that this goes for every club here, however the 66% are busier and in my opinion all very exotic looking.
I almost did a stag last summer with two other girls....and the men complained that my description was not accurately given. So, I left. I cannot imagine what it would be like to have to go thru this evrytime you turn around. Its Bullshyt!!!!!!!
No one should ever let some racist ruin their dreams.

Melonie
06-08-2004, 06:33 PM
Toronto is the worlds most diverse city. With that being said, there are many black, hispanic, asian , white, etc...the list goes on.
The club that I work part time at is a mix ...with maybe 33% white girls. Im not sure that this goes for every club here, however the 66% are busier and in my opinion all very exotic looking.

Definitely ! Toronto surpasses Atlanta in regard to club customers coming from all races, the city having almost non-existant racial tensions, almost equal white collar earnings potential for all races, and the almost total absence of a "cultural gap" between races. Toronto club customer spending habits and Toronto clubowner hiring practices reflect that !

Cali_Tiffany
06-08-2004, 06:37 PM
As of 2002 white people have become the minority here, and its a very peaceful place. I think Im going to miss it terribly when I move. :(


Topaz......NEVER ever give up. Ever!

Tina
06-08-2004, 08:01 PM
In fact many major metro areas in the US have white populations of 60% or less.

In many places there are more non whites than whites. And in all your major west coast states like AZ, CA, WA OR, AK, and many northern ones like MN etc. mixed race dating and marriage is so common no one even blinks an eye anymore.

The "proper" racial mix in a club of all non white dancers combined is about 1/3. Clubs that I see with that type of mix and the ones who hire the "right" non white dancers seem to fare well. if a club has 5 dancers then 1 black and one hispanic is cool. With 20 dancers 6-7 ethnic is good. 50 dancers, 16-17 non white and 33 white dancers is perfect.

What I mean by the right dancers is the same criteria used to hire white dancers in high end clubs. Hick white girls won't mix properly with more intellectual customers.

In this business needless to say, black dancers who have a more afrocentric vs. eurocentric look won't compete well period. So black women who have this look and who are somewhat low key and used to interacting with white people and who have white friends will be the type of dancer who will be able to competer fairly evenly with a white dancer in a mixed race/predominately white club. The same goes for hispanic girls even though they are caucasians realistically.

Black and hispanic girls who don't have the proper look and exposure outside of their culture won'tbe able to compete with the white dancers it and will probably make the white customers feel uncomfortable.

What this boils down to is that club managers would have to take the time to "screen" the ethnic girls to make sure they have the right personna even if the looks are like Beyonce' and J-Lo to make sure they would blend in the club well.

But club managers don't do that very often. I experienced it once, got hired, and the manager was telling some of the dancers to watch how I work they floor using me as an example once I got in.

Topaz, we've had thjis discussion before. we as black people all experience discrimination on a daily basis just as you do. Some self help books/tapes on having a positive attitude would help you a lot. Because even if you were white, and a perfect 10, sales would be tough for you if you don't act happy and cheerful around customers.

People buy your personality. Some white people are just not used to being around blacks. If you are friendly and communicate well along with dressing and grooming yourself properly, you WILL make money. Probably more full time than at your job.

In Billings MT at a club I book monthly, 2 cowboy guys chose me to be in their private bachelor party held at the club. Out of 7 white girls only one of them was picked and then me. And I was the only one to sell them dances that night.

So stereotyping goes both ways.

Topaz, you could dance and make money at this as soon as you eliminate the "nobody wants my black ass" attitude. There are lots of clubs that would hire you right now IF you drop the attitude, smile and be a fun girl that the guys want to be with and spend money on.

The customers aren't as bad as the owners make them out to be. Sure you get some but what dancer or girl in general will appeal to everyone.

PoleKitten21
06-09-2004, 06:27 AM
Uggh..were is the advil. Where do I start... since this thread is about "black dancers in upscale gentlemen's club" let talk about that....
Hiring... First off, I personally find it vey hard to believe that strip club owners are coming together and talking about demographics of their clubs, in order to better serve the customer,since when is there a strip club congressional cacaus?. Im not into the whole "white man is holding me down" drivel either. (My bf of 2 years is white.) However, Im dont live in a fantasy world either... like or not it is racism, not demographics.

Music... in upscale gentlemen's club... black women arent even given the privelage to dance to hip-hop anymore. ( I was told that I was not allowed to dance to rap, too bad I was planning on dancing to Rob Zombie, and Alice Cooper.) I find that more and more often the white females are the one's on stage trying to "get low" and "shake it like a salt shaker" not me.

Customers... yes almost every customer I have talked to they are always like "you must not be from here," "are you mixed?," "I dont consider you to be a black,"... and the best one yet "you must be one of the ones who didnt grow up in the ghetto"....CUSTOMERS DO JUDGE BLACK DANCERS RIGHT OFF THE BAT. You have to work very hard to get past that stereotype, that "loud mouth, chicken eating, watermelon and koolaid taking, think she best dancer, jay-z loving, big butt having black girl."lol

Rap Customers....Some made a post about rap music causing her to not be tipped, get drinks, and to be groped. Im sorry but I almost feel into the floor laughing my ass off... So I guess rock and pop keep guys from feeling you up right? Well, hell now I can fire my bouncers....as long as the club is playing AC/DC and Britney Spears we are all kosher. Awesome.
I realize that that rap music brings in a different kind of crowd, that some of the rap customers do not tip (although usually they throw money on stage when their song is on here at my club) But I and IM sure many others can point out that isnt just the rap music.
Every customer is not the same, the old guy in the suit may like nelly....and the guy in the jersey is probably waiting for Led Zepplin's "The Ocean" to play.

Just A Thought...

Note... To the gentlemen who said it was really sad that he couldnt say certain thing without being labeled a racist. Trust me, I know. Black people are hold real tight to this "that's our word" thing.
Nigger....is a word to describe an ignorant person period. I wont give someone the joy of trying to make it anything else.

Racism,discrimination, bigotry....affects everyone it isnt just blacks.

Hell, the way I figure it the people who should be really complaining...are hispanics. Seems like everyone of every race just calls them "mexicans" and a lot of other names. Yet I rarely here them complain. Everyone laughing cause the got their whole family in one vehicle, yet most of us dont even have that kind of family closeness. Im telling you one of these days we are going to need to cross that border, and their going to be like remember back when... Damn Shame.

2004...all this technology and not a drop of tolerance let alone common sense.

Melonie
06-09-2004, 09:19 AM
First off, I personally find it vey hard to believe that strip club owners are coming together and talking about demographics of their clubs, in order to better serve the customer,since when is there a strip club congressional cacaus

I'm really getting hesitant about continuing to post in this thread, but ...

If you're talking about upscale clubowners in big cities, these are almost invariably corporations not individual owners. You're also talking about financial investments in the multi-million dollar range (I believe that Penthouse Corp. invested $7 million to open PEC in Manhattan), which must be financed. This brings into play major bankers, stockholders, board of directors etc. At this level you can count on the fact that a detailed business plan was developed prior to the club ever opening in order to secure the financing, and part of that plan included a demographic analysis and profiling of targeted customers.

Furthermore, corporate clubs really don't care about customer service. Nor do they care about making dancers happy. What they DO care about is taking in as much customer money as possible in as short of a time as possible, and paying out as little of it as possible in the way of operating expenses. It's guaranteed that there is a 'bean counter' in the major bank which financed the club who is looking at the cash flow numbers from the club on a weekly basis, and making recommendations which will maximize club cash flow next week. If one of those recommendations involves tweaking the ethnic makeup of the club's dancers, it's based on cash flow projections (at least to some degree).

Bridgette
06-09-2004, 10:46 AM
so my decision to give up on this pipe dream was a smart one then huh...

since all the customers are racist...as you all are saying...and don't want 'them nigger bitches' in the clubs...


Alright. This is the stupidest thing I've read all day. NONE of us have said that all customers are racist. But yes, most who go to upscale clubs are. Don't kill the messenger alright. Just stating a well-known fact. Having alot of black dancers draws more black customers. Then the white customers get uncomfortable with "too many" black customers in the room and leave. In reality, many of the white customers would prefer to see more black dancers in the clubs - they just don't hang around when there are alot of black CUSTOMERS. Since the white customers have always been known to spend more money in the clubs OVERALL, the owners are obliged to cater to them.

Yeah racism sucks and it's unfortunate that it still exists. But don't go screaming racism at the wrong people. Business owners are in business to make money and they're going to do what they must to maintain their bottom lines. Others who simply make an observation are not the ones at fault. These problems will NOT ever get solved by bitching and complaining and screaming at the wrong people to make up for others' shortcomings. The only thing anyone can really do is take care of the problem at home - that's the only thing that will make a difference.

06-09-2004, 10:51 AM
Devil's Advocate, here. I like apple pie. I do not like peach pie. I do like peaches....I just don't care for peach pie. I have nothing against peaches. I think peaches and apples should be in the same general area in the supermarket. I do, however, think that a supermarket should only buy as many peaches and apples as they think they are going to sell. One should not purchase extra peaches just to keep the peaches happy, if more people are buying apples. Where is the line? At what point does one's personal preference cross over to racism? I also prefer brunettes over blondes and redheads....although there are many blondes, redheads, and african americans I have seen that I found quite attractive. More times than not, I prefer brunettes. Am I a racist? If so....am I also a hairist?

Bridgette
06-09-2004, 10:56 AM
... you could dance and make money at this as soon as you eliminate the "nobody wants my black ass" attitude. There are lots of clubs that would hire you right now IF you drop the attitude, smile and be a fun girl that the guys want to be with and spend money on.


I just thought this deserved repeating. This is exactly what I was trying to get at in the second half of my previous post.



Oh and StripperTips, your preferance for apple pie over peach pie makes you a fruitist! PIG! LOL

06-09-2004, 11:05 AM
But I swear....some of my best friends are fruits!

Melonie
06-09-2004, 11:35 AM
Devil's Advocate, here. I like apple pie. I do not like peach pie. I do like peaches....I just don't care for peach pie. I have nothing against peaches. I think peaches and apples should be in the same general area in the supermarket. I do, however, think that a supermarket should only buy as many peaches and apples as they think they are going to sell. One should not purchase extra peaches just to keep the peaches happy, if more people are buying apples. Where is the line?

Actually, your example does have a couple of significant shortcomings. The first is that you imply that potential fruit customers are spending somewhere around the same amount of money whether they choose to buy apples or peaches. You need to factor in the general observation that the typical customer who prefers apples buys them a dozen at a time and pays extra for organically grown apples, while the typical customer who prefers peaches buys maybe 2 or 3 at a time and shops for bargains. Thus the supermarket typically makes much more profit from a single customer who prefers apples than from a single customer who prefers peaches.

Next, factor in that customers who prefer peaches may come into the supermarket in groups, may be rowdy and discourteous, and may make a solitary customer shopping for apples in the same produce department very uncomfortable - to the point where he only buys a couple of apples and leaves quickly, and thinks about going to a different supermarket the next time he's out shopping for apples to avoid running into so many customers shopping for peaches.

Lastly you need to factor in that supermarket space is limited. In other words, only so much fruit will fit in the produce department, so that adding more varieties of peaches means that some varieties of apples will have to be removed. As a consequence, adding more varieties of peaches usually means more peach preferring customers and fewer apple preferring customers will come into the supermarket once all customers have had a chance to see the new selections.

Also, the "supermarket owner" is not able to simply refuse to sell peaches altogether, because he will be accused by customer groups of anti-peach prejudice. The "supermarket owner" also realizes that many customers who generally prefer apples do like to buy a few peaches once in a while, and vice versa. The "supermarket owner" also knows that there are a handful of peach preferring customers who will buy them by the dozen, and who will complain if there aren't any peaches available. But these big spending peach preferring customers tend to like expensive organically grown peaches and not the bargain variety !

I'm obviously playing Devil's Advocate as well ! My only purpose in responding from the produce aisle is to illustrate the point that the financial issues affecting the "supermarket owner" go deeper than simply x customers preferring apples and y customers preferring peaches. The "supermarket owner" has to take into account that he is typically earning much more profit per customer from customers who prefer apples, and must attempt to strike a balance of apples versus peaches which results in the supermarket earning the greatest profit using the available produce department space even if a few customers who prefer peaches are unhappy with his decision and even if the bargain peaches don't sell too well.

sander8son
06-09-2004, 11:41 AM
heh, what if i only like steak?

06-09-2004, 12:19 PM
Well....either you get it....or I'm too stupid to follow. The latter is definitely a possibility. But while all of that is true, that wasn't really what I was getting at. I understand all the market implications. All I'm saying is that there is a difference between feeling that one race over another is superior, versus having a personal preference, or taste, for one "style" versus the other.

As for you, Ander8son.....the produce section is probably the wrong place. You might wanna try the gay male strip clubs for your steak. Unless you're referring to the ladies as "cows"...in which case I'm gonna sit back and watch you get yer arse kicked ;)

doc-catfish
06-09-2004, 12:48 PM
It's NOT the clubowners girls, it's the customers. The clubowners simply do their best to give the CUSTOMERS what they want. If most of the customers are racist pigs (which they are), the owners are going to hire accordingly.


Since when does having a personal preference appearance wise make one a racist? Look at the personal ads in your local newspaper. Nearly everybody placing them (white, black, widowed, gay) describes themselves by three letters, and who they are looking for by three letters (SWM, SWF, SBF, etc.). One of those three letters make reference to race. Should we assume that all people who specify they are looking for a partner of a particular race (or particular anything) in their personal ad are bigots?



Having alot of black dancers draws more black customers. Then the white customers get uncomfortable with "too many" black customers in the room and leave. In reality, many of the white customers would prefer to see more black dancers in the clubs - they just don't hang around when there are alot of black CUSTOMERS. Since the white customers have always been known to spend more money in the clubs OVERALL, the owners are obliged to cater to them.


I'd say what makes big spending customers leave/avoid a club, is when it is taken over by "ghetto" customers (of ANY race). If a group of black customers come in properly dressed, act like gentlemen, and enjoy the show instead of trying to become part of it, that doesn't intimidate or bother me a bit.

But when I see a bunch of guys come in dressed in FUBU attire and backwards ballcaps, who sit up at the stage in front of everyone, harass the dancers, spend very little, and dance to rap music when it gets played, it is very distracting. When I'm distracted, my mood is not condusive to me spending money, on anybody. I in fact want to get the hell out of there. And it's not a racial thing, because I see as many white "ghetto" customers as nonwhite ones, particularly at non-alcohol clubs because they let 18-20 year old bums in.

The only common denominator about this bunch is that they are young and are mostly into hard core rap or hip-hop. I grew up on heavy metal myself, and it was probably true that back in the 1980's, the headbanger crowd represented the "problem demographic" at SC's because that's what the younger crowd was into. Now many of those very same guys are in their 30's and 40's, have good paying jobs and money to spend. In 15-20 years from now, that will likely change again.