View Full Version : who pays?
Im making an asumption that most dancers on this board make as much or more money than their SO. If that is a true statement, why is it a given that the guy should always pay? Lets say hypothetical Dancer A makes a low estimate of $1000 to $1500 a week (possibly tax free). Her SO has a decent job making $50K to $60K a year before taxes. Obviously, her net disposable income is much higher. Yet, most of the time he will be the one pulling out the cash or CC.
I dont have an axe to grind. I usually pay and dont mind doing it even if Im the invitee. One, I can afford it and two, I was raised that way. But trying to be objective, it doesnt always make sense purely from an income stand point.
FBR
sander8son
06-01-2004, 04:43 PM
Anyway, Sandy, I call bullshit. I think if you had the chance to go out with a hot chick from this site tonight, you would be jumping to pick up the tab. ;)
heh, who says i haven't? im not saying that i should never pay or that it should always be split or that you should always pay the exact amount for what you consume..... i'm saying it shouldn't be assumed that the guy should pay just because he's a guy. like i said before, when others offer to pay(or do for that matter) it makes me want to do more for them.
none of you have ever dated me, nor will you, so you'll never know the pscyho that is me...... but its a very just psycho. i give a lot of myself to those i care about and those i feel care about me. offering to pay (just assuming that you are supposed to pay your way) is a surefire way to earn my respect and adoration, and you may not even have to pay. i'll most likely take your payment, for your half. ive only on rare occaisons accepted payment for the full meal / entertainment from a date, but its after a long stretch of me covering everything.
all im saying is, dont take a guys wallet for granted. if you date me for my wallet, i'll feel like im being taken advantage of, and i'll grow to resent you fairly quickly.
with regards to opening doors and that crap. i usually do if possible(sometimes im behind her and i dont feel like shoving her out of the way to open it, but if she open it i'll hold it open from behind). ofcorse, its always fun after a couple times of doing that to stop at the door and wait for her to open it for you....just to spice things up :P
Deogol
06-01-2004, 04:53 PM
If she insists on paying part of the bill, after rejecting some moderate protest on my part, I'll let her (again being anal about it helps nobody). That gesture frankly would mean more to me than the money would. Call me crazy, but the gal who doesn't expect me to pay for everything is the one that I would feel most obliged to cover.
exactly, the one who treats me as an equal is the one i wish to do the most for. do unto others as you wish they do unto you / treat others the way you wish to be treated. if someone proports that they're above me and therefor i should have to pay for the privellege of being in their company, i see them as below me and therefor i objectify them. if someone treats me as an equal it makes me respect and appreciate them a hell of a lot more, and it makes me want to do a LOT more for them.
I knew it wouldn't be too long before the burger-flippers showed up. You'd be the guy in the tribe handing the spear to the women to go out and hunt the oxen while you sit back in the hut playing with your GameRock.
PC: Burger flipper? please i dont have that much motivation!!! i dont think i could hold down a job at a fast food joint, too much responsibility and pressure.
i hardly think id hand her a spear and make her hunt for me........ i mean, have you ever tried making a spear? its tough, no way im gonna expend all that time and effort to make a spear for someone else. but she can feel free to go out and hunt for me.
ok, no, what i would be is the guy who would go out and kill the ox and eat it himself. the spear would be used for killing the people trying to take the ox which is mine. i wouldn't be sharing ox, unless i got something in return. the women gathered berries and crap and took care of the kids.
i dont like kids, i dont like berries. im not looking for a nurturer in a woman, i'm looking for a fellow hunter. someone whom can help me slay the beast and then we can share its bounty with each other. what im not happy about is when women are no longer the nurturing gatherers, but are the hunters themselves, but then expect the male hunter to provide the meat even though the female hunters slay plenty of their own meat. thats much greedier than my slaying an animal and not sharing it. shes slaying, not sharing, and demanding mine.
so if you want to be my equal, offer to pay. if you want to be my possession, let me purchase you. its that simple. i think you can kill more oxen as a team than working as individuals. but i digress, to be honest, ive never hunted wild oxen.
You go, Sander8son!
As an aside, a thought hit me... and ain't not everyone going to like it.
But I think there are distinct things going on in this group because it is a strip club group. I been around long enough to know that in this crowd, people like to show off their wealth because money is power.
The guys like to flaught it because it makes women do things for them that they never would do - not even for their friends. I've known people who don't even like their friends in the club when they are on stage. And they certainly would not grind one of their guy friends. But a fella with money - it will make them do what ever he wants.
Vice versa, for a dancer (in general - I am not grouping you all in), money means "I got ALL THIS from a man, and all I had to do was flirt with my feminine wiles."
Hey - I'll admit it - I laid some big temptation on my ATF. There would be nights where I would drop literally thousands on her (ah, the good old days of being rich.) So I was doing it too.
So - you and I and a few others (who I bet have fallen out of this crowd but for the internet) might see things a little differently than some of the people on this board. I am not saying it is BAD or WORSE or BETTER -- merely DIFFERENT.
I mean, it is good the world has so many different people - you can't be friends with everyone!
And it is an off the cuff not well thought out idea.
Deogol
06-01-2004, 04:57 PM
Hang around here long enough and you will hear griping about boyfriends - and there is a reason for it. Guys get tired of being taken advantage of and then the circus starts. Just little things that don't seem related that soon grow into bigger things and finally the relationship is just finished with him being "an asshole" as if the other party has no fault at all.
Equal rights entails equal responsibilities.
You don't want to appear to reward him with sex for taking you out to dinner or shopping or what ever. Things like that will be at a more even keel if all else is equalized.
You cannot seriously be inferring that the reason that guys turn into assholes is because we expect him to pay.
You know why we think guys are assholes? Because they take US for granted! We feel WE are being taken advantage of. You are drawing incorrect conclusions based on your own cheapness. If you don't want to pay, fine, but don't point it around on us saying that we're taking advantage of you.
I consider myself a feminist, but I'm still a woman. This isn't about equal rights, because that's something totally different. This is about gender roles and we don't live in an equal world. Men take different roles than women. Men provide and we accept.....which is the whole basis for our business.
Well, you're right, you would probably starve around me.
I have been around some real gold diggers and fair weather friends - and I know of guys who I consider parasites too.
There are a lot of people out there who want their cake and to eat it too, but it just doesn't work that way.
Topaz
06-01-2004, 04:58 PM
...and this is why i think that women should pay their own way...a man can't take advantage of the situation if you...drive yourself to the date location...and pay your own way...
Deogol
06-01-2004, 05:03 PM
In regards to dating (not a relationship), I run on a simple rule: asker pays. To do otherwise is to financially impose on the one you're asking. That is rude and crude in and of itself. You're making uninvited claims on their money and that's just inexcusable. And if that wasn't bad enough, they might have wanted to go out with you but, if they know you require them to pay or to go dutch, they might not have accepted your invite simply because they're financially committed elsewhere at the moment. Now wouldn't that be a lovely thing to learn later? You tell a friend that knows both of you that s/he turned you down and your friend tells you, "The only reason they turned you down was because they didn't think they could afford to go dutch with you on that date." Yeah, that would be such a lovely thing to find out later.
Now with more than half of my dates, the woman asks. And in all those times, only a couple times, did I ever get stuck with the bill. It wasn't blatant, but there was no doubt when the bill came that I was to cover it. I graciously did and acted as if I was to pay before the wait staff. However...
If I know the woman has never asked out a guy before (rather common), I take it that they might not understand what's going on. They might have gotten the rules mixed up. I then wait a bit after we're away from there to see if they simply wanted me to publicly pay and then reinburse me privately. If that's the case, I'm cool with it and will just run on that assumption for all future dates with them. Afterall, the idea is to have fun on a date and not make a public political/social statement. However, if after a while they don't reinburse me, I, with a smile, gently tell them the simple rule they've broken. And, no, I don't expect or accept reinbursement after saying that. I just chalk it up as a lesson I gave a friend and paid for. However, if they violate this rule again the next time they ask me out...
If I know they know that "asker pays" (most that grow up in academia know this), they asked me out, and I end up paying for the date, I then never ask out or accept a date from that woman again. It wasn't the money, but the imposition that I object to. My money isn't their money and they're never to assume it is. It doesn't matter if they think I can afford it, they've crossed a line that they're never to cross. And even when it is a date that I asked them out on, they're not to assume it is an all-you-can-spend date. Not that formal pleas are required, but an inquiry look given when wanting something out of the ordinary that isn't trivial. This is just about respect.
As for the women that never ask out guys, I think you're limiting your fun. After women know that they can ask me out on dates and that I never refuse, they commonly ask me out and have told me how much more fun life is then. No longer hoping someone will take them to that concert, play, or movie and/or restaurant they've been dying to go to but don't want to go to alone. No longer having to drop hints like anvils in a cartoon so the guy hopefully gets the clue that they want to go that concert or whatever. And those anvils have to get bigger and bigger the more the guy doesn't want to do what you want to do. The women simply ask me and off we go.
Now I do run on the rule that I never refuse a date. The only exceptions to this are if I already have a commitment for that time or they've knowingly broken the above rule. And if it is another commitment that is the reason, I always say so and, saying it is something that can be done at another time, tell them that I'd love to go with them to do that and suggest another time. The logic behind me never refusing is simply that I know how much emotional energy it takes to ask someone out on a date, especially if it is your first time. That and it's double for women since it goes against the norm. Besides, I'm a big guy so nothing is going to happen that I don't want to happen on the date. ;) However, this rule has resulted in me attending poetry readings, quilt shows, NOW rallies, countless chick flicks, and all other things feminine. But I'm ALWAYS jazzed about being asked out so I endure these things with a big... :slaphappy:
Man, that was a really good post...
Deogol
06-01-2004, 05:07 PM
I was under the impression that this discussion was about social dating. If you are going out with guys for business, then of course they should pay.
Ladies,
What if we took the penises out of the equation? If two women go out on a date, who should pay?
-V
It is about dating, but I'm talking about the greater picture...gender roles. What I described is exactly the dynamics of strip clubs, and can also be applied to dating.
OOH, FUCK ME! YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME THAT YOU THINK STRIP CLUB SOCIAL RULES ARE THE NORM?!?!
Dammmmmnnnnnn........
My experience is that everything is topsy-turvy behind those doors in the windowless building. Women coming on to men - YA RIGHT! Women flipping those skirts up to any guy she meets with a ten - YA RIGHT! Everybody has a fake name - YA RIGHT! And in the "real world" people are embarrassed to meet each other...
I don't even know where to begin with how off that is...
Morter Forker
06-01-2004, 05:08 PM
I do not pay on first dates anymore. Well i dont even know if I should call them a first date now. I split the bill because i think its fair considering what both sides have invested in the relationship at that point.
Deogol
06-01-2004, 05:13 PM
Do some of you guys not appreciate reciprocation in a more personal form?
I guess I never really look at it that way. I don't keep a ledger and try to make sure the sides balance out. However, you do soon get the good idea on whether they're going out with you or your money. Some guys are fine with being viewed as a meal ticket. It's just not my thing. When I feel that's the case, I cool off the relationship and see what then happens. I'm a social animal and I quite honestly don't care what we do as long as it is fun and we both want to do it. However, I also realize that she will want company on some things that are not my cup of tea (i.e., chick flicks) but I do them with her because I like her and like pleasing her. I do expect the same in return (i.e., going to see the latest Terminator movie), but, again, I don't keep a ledger on it. Just an overall feeling about how the relationship is developing.
I mean cooking dinner may not be as expensive (although some home-cooked dinners are pretty costly) as a nice dinner out, but it takes time and effort and thought to prepare.
Being a bachelor, I really do appreciate home-cooked meals. Given my food allergies (too many to list here), I don't eat out at restaurants anymore. If we go out to a restaurant, I'll order a pop and chat while she eats. If she's uncomfortable with me not having food in front of me, I'll order some cheap salad and then just not touch it ... or order a dish that one shares (i.e., platter of finger food). However, because I cook all my own food (a.k.a. Ramen noodles), there's no quicker way to my heart than a healthy home-cooked meal (one that even has those exotic things called "vegetables") that I didn't have to cook myself. Well, that's not completely true. It's the quickest way to my heart IF you leave out of that equation her undressing. ;)
But generally speaking, when going out with a guy, he is always the one who asks me out and he pays.
Which in my book is the right thing to do. Asker pays.
I would just like to suggest giving the idea of asking him out a try and see if it improves your enjoyment of life.
Oh and another thing. I expect a guy to open the doors for me, pull my seat out and let me go first. That doesn't mean he gets to beat the shit out of me if I do something he doesn't like, or otherwise take out aggression on me. It just means I am a lady and expect to be treated as such. Men and women, no matter how modern and 'enlightened' we become, will always be different. There will always be gender roles, no matter how much some may dislike them.
Guys around here are cautious about doing such gentlemanly things. Madison, Wisconsin, USA (where I live) is an anti-male feminist stronghold. Personally, I try to gauge what the woman appreciates and expects. However, I've had women I don't even know shout at me as being an "oppressor" when I open the door for my date. I just ignore them. Only one has ever refused to be ignored and walked up behind me to confront me on my "oppressor" behavior. She started to rant and before I knew what was going on and said anything, my date ripped into the woman for butting her nose into something that was none of her business. They exchanged a few choice words and the ranter went off in a huff. My date turned to me, gave me a kiss, and, as I was still holding the door to the restaurant open, walked in ahead of me and nothing more was said of the incident.
In this day and age of overt anti-male feminism, you need to not take gentlemanly behavior for granted or the guy might assume you don't want it and are simply being quiet about it to not rock the boat. However, you do not need to say anything more than "thank you" ... and not even that for you can just give him a smile and/or kiss for doing it and you'll receive more of the same.
Talking about anti-male feminism - try living in the san francisco bay area for a bit...
There is a reason why 50+% of marriages end up in divorce.
Deogol
06-01-2004, 05:18 PM
...and this is why i think that women should pay their own way...a man can't take advantage of the situation if you...drive yourself to the date location...and pay your own way...
... and carry two stun guns ... :)
Sorry Topaz, I know you have had trouble in the past, and newbies should know where you are coming from...
erotictonic
06-01-2004, 05:23 PM
...and this is why i think that women should pay their own way...a man can't take advantage of the situation if you...drive yourself to the date location...and pay your own way...
... and carry two stun guns ... :)
Sorry Topaz, I know you have had trouble in the past, and newbies should know where you are coming from...
Most of us women have had trouble in the past. Remember that two out of three of us will be raped at some point in our lives. I don't know if you checked out the virginity thread in Ladies' Only. I think anyone can see where she is coming from here. She has very valid worries.
Morter Forker
06-01-2004, 05:29 PM
I dont get why some women expect to be paid for? I mean whats the point of the date. If you are not attracted to me enough to want to spend time to me while paying for some food, then why would I want you?
Men provide and we accept.....which is the whole basis for our business.
I was under the impression that this discussion was about social dating. If you are going out with guys for business, then of course they should pay.
Ladies,
What if we took the penises out of the equation? If two women go out on a date, who should pay?
-V
This is what I meant earlier. The one who asks is the one who pays, regardless of gender. :) If one female asks the other, then the one who asked should pay, unless its a "friends" thing... like when my friend and I say, "Lets do lunch"...we split the bill. But if its a date, then its different. :)
Katrine
06-01-2004, 08:00 PM
to make it simple, if the guy DOESN'T pay on the initial date, he isn't going to get a second date. That's my rule of thumb, I like it better than Pumpkin's.
Even when you were the one that asked him on the date?
I don't ask men out on dates. Good thing I have a boyfriend, lol.
Katrine
06-01-2004, 08:09 PM
Oh yeah, I went to a SC last night with some friends and paid for all their cover, drinks, and dances.......good Kitty Kat.....meow!
Deogol
06-01-2004, 09:52 PM
...and this is why i think that women should pay their own way...a man can't take advantage of the situation if you...drive yourself to the date location...and pay your own way...
... and carry two stun guns ... :)
Sorry Topaz, I know you have had trouble in the past, and newbies should know where you are coming from...
Most of us women have had trouble in the past. Remember that two out of three of us will be raped at some point in our lives. I don't know if you checked out the virginity thread in Ladies' Only. I think anyone can see where she is coming from here. She has very valid worries.
Where are you getting that stat from?
I can only find 18% - 22% of the general female population faces rape (and around 3% of the male population faces rape.)
You aren't mixing it up with 66% of that 18% are raped by... are you?
CrescentLuna
06-01-2004, 10:24 PM
Either way, sometimes my boyfriend says "I got it" and other times I get it. Depends on who had a payday most recently. ;)
Lemme go into the bigger issues here, since I got around to reading the rest of the thread.
I estimated that even with a bad week here and there, I make roughly 7x what my bf does. We still split things like groceries [lemme note the living situation, he lives 5 hours from me and spends about one week total a month at my place], but generally I have lot more "fun" money than him - therefore, I'm down with if I want a treat like going out for food, catching the bill. If he was treating we'd be eating Burger King, which would be fine but ya know, sometimes I like Indian food better. I generally offer even if he says he's got it.
I don't think I've done an actual date, now that I think about. Most of the time we were already an 'item' before we went on an official dinner date. Heh.
Though I don't like when a guy says "would you like to go out for dinner?"
girl: "Sure! Let's go to [name of most expensive restaurant in town]."
guy: "oh!... er... okay."
And then she expects him to pay. It's a test, I know, to make sure the guy will pay it, but I just don't like it. Girls at my cashiering job would do this to guys who worked at the same store.
And, I don't measure my "value" as a person by what other people are paying for my company - far too much like the sc. My guy is crazy about me, I don't need to have him sign over his paycheck to prove that. Important part is I know that if I needed him to, like if I get injured and am out of work for awhile, he would happily. Doesn't mean I judge his masculinity or whatever by it.
polecat
06-01-2004, 10:39 PM
im not looking for a nurturer in a woman, i'm looking for a fellow hunter. someone whom can help me slay the beast and then we can share its bounty with each other.
Wow Sander8son, I gotta say that was a pretty excellent post.. and one I agree with whole heartedly. I gotta say it inspired imagery of Raquel Welch in that fur-lined 2-piece outfit as well!
I think the main point of contention really is- we're all trying to grapple with the bigger concept of relationships, courting and supporting those we are fond of.. and picking up the tab encompasses maybe 1% of the the whole.
It's very easy to see a notion of being the "role" that picks up the tab as being one-sided or submissive in some realm, and if that's the only condition specified as in this particular topic might suggest, it's truly a role more of servitude.
Relationships and dating are all about give and take... but the forms from which these manifest themselves differ and can most definately be gender specific. There are just some things a woman can do that are truly priceless and precious, as well as others that a man can do which are equally priceless and precious. As we mature in relationships, our needs focus more on the token ideal behind them rather than the time or expense involved. This makes it so reciprocation no longer has to be some sort of contest of balancing same-same, but instead finding personally expressive ways to express fondness. Given all this, the picking up of the tab is just one thing, reciprocation and expression received can be in any number of other ways and in equal relationships always is.
Talking about anti-male feminism - try living in the san francisco bay area for a bit...
Whoah, what San Francisco Bay Area are we talking about here exactly? I've never encountered even the slightest bit of anti-male sentiment here.. even in the more prolific lesbian-only hangs.
Don't you be giving my SF ladies a bad rap now! Yah, they may shoot flak with the best of them, but it's all good (and quite fun) once you're hip to it.
Emily
06-01-2004, 11:30 PM
OOH, FUCK ME! YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME THAT YOU THINK STRIP CLUB SOCIAL RULES ARE THE NORM?!?!
Dammmmmnnnnnn........
My experience is that everything is topsy-turvy behind those doors in the windowless building. Women coming on to men - YA RIGHT! Women flipping those skirts up to any guy she meets with a ten - YA RIGHT! Everybody has a fake name - YA RIGHT! And in the "real world" people are embarrassed to meet each other...
I don't even know where to begin with how off that is...
Read for content....I never said it was the norm, but how it's an example of how gender roles are expressed. If you don't see it, then go out there are shake your ass for us ladies and see how well received it is.
oceanblue
06-02-2004, 08:48 AM
My boyfriend payed for everything in the beginning but now we are practically married so we share expenses when we can. If i cant afford to, he will always help me out as is his obligation for choosing me as a life partner. Hes my lobster! LOL
blondhottie
06-02-2004, 12:03 PM
I agree with the majority of people who posted-whoever asks for the date should pay. I agree with Pumpkin Pie in that it's rude to invite someone out and then expect them to pay. It's always nice for the guest to offer to chip in, but it should never be expected. Whenever a guy asks me out, I always offer to help pay, but the guy always says "No, that's okay, I got it."
If I'm living with my significant other, then it's a little different. We usually share the expenses. When I lived with my ex, we pretty much split everything 50/50. If we went out to a bar, we'd take turns buying the drinks. If we went to a movie, one of us would buy the tickets, and the other one would pay for the popcorn and soda. When it was his birthday, dinner was on me, and when it was my birthday, dinner was on him. You get the idea. ;)
velvet
06-02-2004, 02:47 PM
...and this is why i think that women should pay their own way...a man can't take advantage of the situation if you...drive yourself to the date location...and pay your own way...
... and carry two stun guns ... :)
Sorry Topaz, I know you have had trouble in the past, and newbies should know where you are coming from...
Most of us women have had trouble in the past. Remember that two out of three of us will be raped at some point in our lives. I don't know if you checked out the virginity thread in Ladies' Only. I think anyone can see where she is coming from here. She has very valid worries.
Where are you getting that stat from?
I can only find 18% - 22% of the general female population faces rape (and around 3% of the male population faces rape.)
You aren't mixing it up with 66% of that 18% are raped by... are you?
thats ignorant. if you factor in "date rape" and un reported rapes, i'd put the figure at about 50% of women have been raped, forced whatever you want to call it. maybe more
Topaz
06-02-2004, 02:53 PM
velvet...girl you beat me to it...
and if you include the rapes that happen...where the woman tells noone...the percentage is probably higher than 50%...