View Full Version : Drawing the Line - How far would *you* go...
Bridgette
06-14-2004, 12:33 AM
I'd like to know what gives any seller the right to dictate to any buyer what it is the buyer should want.
WHEN WHAT THE BUYER WANTS IS ILLEGAL.
Bridgette
06-14-2004, 12:43 AM
Luna noboby is saying new girls are a bad thing. I hope no one thinks I or anyone else begrudges a girl starting to dance! It's just that with no training, which is the standard now, the newbies are basically left to figure it all out on their own, which usually means alot of asshole customers have their way with them before they had the chance to learn how to sell without selling themselves short. Basically, management is ultimately to blame for the major downfall of this industry. Most customers don't give a rat's ass if they are putting everyone at risk for arrest and who-knows-what-else, but responsibility falls on the shoulders of management to make sure girls know what they're doing and that everyone stays in line.
Melonie
06-14-2004, 04:01 AM
Melonie - are you talking about Mademoiselle's? I've never been there, but I remember hearing about it before.
Yes, Mademoiselle's. This is a great club to work at if you are a 10, but can be frustrating if you are only an 8 (assuming that they will hire a dancer who is an 8 in the first place).
Some people, including some highly respected participants in various online communities, believe that it is wrong to commodify certain services becaue it somehow (I don't really understand how, though) results in the commodification of the person providing those specific services. If such were the case, a seller (or someone else) might assert that there are certain things that a buyer should not even want to buy...because it is equivalent to wanting to buy (commodify) a person. Right?
I'm sure that person, whoever he may be, would answer that, from that point of view, one-on-one air dances are just as commodifying-hence-wrong as any other sexual service. Maybe moreso.
WHEN WHAT THE BUYER WANTS IS ILLEGAL.
Where I live, even light contact dances are probably ILLEGAL. There is not a single strip club in my city -- not even the highest-end show club -- where what goes on on the floor is inarguably legal.
Wwanderer
06-14-2004, 07:45 AM
I'm sure that person, whoever he may be, would answer that, from that point of view, one-on-one air dances are just as commodifying-hence-wrong as any other sexual service. Maybe moreso.
You are almost certainly correct.
-Ww
And Rath - NYC has always been a place that has a "hot club" of the moment. When I first went there about ten years ago - Ten's (Stringfellow's) was the hot spot. Then it was Score's, then VIP a few years after that...then Score's again, and now PEC (forgive me if I didn't get the order exactly right or forgot anything, ten years is a long time...lol). I don't think that any of the clubs are going to go out of business anytime soon. They may not be the "hot spot" of the moment, but as in the case of Ten's, I bet they will still manage to keep their doors open. And a lot of the girls on this site who work at Scores still say they make pretty good money there. Maybe one or two of the new clubs will close in the next few years, but I think as a whole, the club business in the city has a pretty good future.
And believe it or not...many, many dancers choose to not provide heavy contact (even in high contact clubs), and still manage to make good money (as much as everyone else there...except for maybe the all out prostitutes) for all of the reasons that I've already stated. Just because you're into getting the "whole she-bang" so to speak...doesn't mean everyone else is. Some people just want a little entertainment and/or attention...and some would like to only get the "whole she-bang" in privacy.
Brittany, thanks a lot for all that info. (If it's of any comfort to you, my own addled brain remembers the sequence of "it" clubs the same way you do.)
It's a very BOLD line in my opinion. The problem with a lot of "new" dancers is that they have forgotten the "art of seduction". They think that men are turned on by being bumped and grinded. Sure...they are...but they can also be turned on by a very sensual dance. But, I think one of the problems is that people THINK that the Stripclub business is a Sexually orientated business more than a Sensually orientated business.
Hopefully, it will go back to the way it was before...
My training classes are all about seduction (lol it's in the title of my web page). I don't teach the booty shake, fast, hard core dancing, etc. True, a lot of men prefer that, but I agree with getting this business back to the way it used to be.
When I demonstrate couch dances, I never do the bump and grind - it's all seductive and sensual - and that keeps my customers back there for multiple dances - the more you seduce, the more they want. If you make them want to wet themselves right away or give them crotch burn, you lose a lot of money.
Girls will pick up whatever they want from other girls, of course, but it's so nice to see someone that I just taught go on stage and stand out from the other girls that have had no training.
WHEN WHAT THE BUYER WANTS IS ILLEGAL.
Anyway, Bridgette, this misses the point.
My point isn't that any dancer HAS to perform illegal services. OF COURSE SHE DOESN'T. You should only do what you're comfortable with. That goes without saying. (I hope.)
My point is that IF (that's "if": lotsa girls here have persuasively argued they can make a good living doing only low-contact dances) what most customers are willing to pay for are services (legal or not: it really doesn't matter) that a dancer is not willing to sell, then she's going to have to rethink her career choice. Same as in any profession.
Of course you can and should refuse to do things you think are wrong. But you can't insist that other people be willing to pay for whatever it is you think is right. That's THEIR choice.
doc-catfish
06-14-2004, 10:21 AM
When I demonstrate couch dances, I never do the bump and grind - it's all seductive and sensual - and that keeps my customers back there for multiple dances - the more you seduce, the more they want. If you make them want to wet themselves right away or give them crotch burn, you lose a lot of money.
I'm only speaking for my own preferences here, but amen to that. :thumbsup:
Often its what a dancer does with her eyes, and not with her thighs that matters. A little intermittent grinding never hurts, but that sort of thing has gotten way too clinical anymore.
:(
Seduction is another matter entirely. I often find that its the flirting, the sexy voice, the eye contact, even how the dancer propositioned me for the sale that gets seared in my brain after I go home, and the great thing is that no two women do it alike. That's what keeps me coming back.
:)
See, I TOLD you about archeology.
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_983935.html?menu=
Tigerlilly
06-14-2004, 12:43 PM
And believe it or not...many, many dancers choose to not provide heavy contact (even in high contact clubs), and still manage to make good money (as much as everyone else there...except for maybe the all out prostitutes) for all of the reasons that I've already stated. Just because you're into getting the "whole she-bang" so to speak...doesn't mean everyone else is. Some people just want a little entertainment and/or attention...and some would like to only get the "whole she-bang" in privacy.
Brittany, It's pointless to try and explain this to those who are trying to maniuplate dancers into giving more contact.
That reality squashes their put out or get out theory
Bridgette
06-14-2004, 01:21 PM
WHEN WHAT THE BUYER WANTS IS ILLEGAL.
Anyway, Bridgette, this misses the point.
My point isn't that any dancer HAS to perform illegal services. OF COURSE SHE DOESN'T. You should only do what you're comfortable with. That goes without saying. (I hope.)
My point is that IF (that's "if": lotsa girls here have persuasively argued they can make a good living doing only low-contact dances) what most customers are willing to pay for are services (legal or not: it really doesn't matter) that a dancer is not willing to sell, then she's going to have to rethink her career choice. Same as in any profession.
Of course you can and should refuse to do things you think are wrong. But you can't insist that other people be willing to pay for whatever it is you think is right. That's THEIR choice.
You are missing the point. If it's illegal, you have no legal right to ask for or expect it. Period. It has nothing to do with what I think is right, it has to do with you as a customer demanding illegal service for your money. Personally I don't have a problem with certain levels of contact, but I DO have a problem with risking arrest for $20. If what you say is correct, then it's ok to sell crack at school because the customers want it and ask for it. BS!
If a dancer is not comfortable providing the illegal services many customers want, it most certainly is not the same as in any other profession where generally speaking, what the customers want is legal. Not even close.
I say again. My stance has nothing to do with what I think is "wrong". It has everything to do with not wanting to go to jail. Of course I don't do anything I'm not comfortable with, but frankly, in many instances I am perfectly comfortable with doing more than is by the book legal - I just don't feel like going to jail and being labeled a sex offender for the rest of my life because of it! Yeah I make good money doing relatively low-contact dances and generally less than what many other girls are doing in the same club. It takes a bit more work this way and frankly I find it really sad that so many girls are, IMO, too lazy to do it.
Tigerlilly
06-14-2004, 01:26 PM
You are missing the point. If it's illegal, you have no legal right to ask for or expect it. Period.
EXACTLY!!!!! But like I said to Brittany and I'm sure Bridgette knows, it's a waste of time to try and explain that to those whose agenda is to try and make dancers think the only way to make a living is do sky high mileage
Brittany
06-14-2004, 01:38 PM
My point is that IF (that's "if": lotsa girls here have persuasively argued they can make a good living doing only low-contact dances) what most customers are willing to pay for are services (legal or not: it really doesn't matter) that a dancer is not willing to sell, then she's going to have to rethink her career choice. Same as in any profession.
Of course you can and should refuse to do things you think are wrong. But you can't insist that other people be willing to pay for whatever it is you think is right. That's THEIR choice.
[quote]
I really don't think that most strippers accross the country today are also prostitutes in disguise. So I guess OUR point is...since most of us aren't already prostitutes, most guys must not be demanding these services from their strippers. Maybe you do...whatever...and kudos to the prostitutes who are making money off of you (I'm not knocking them allthough I would prefer that the prostitutes take their business out of the strip clubs in order to prevent them being shut down).
What we have been talking about here I think...is the new girls in the business who are constantly pushing the envelope towards prostitution (even if the customer doesn't want it or ask for it..or pay "extra" for the extra). A lot of the girls in the business today just don't seem to get what sensuality is or seem to know that there are other ways besides snogging (lol..love that word), and getting down and dirty, with the customers to make money. And basically...we're griping because we're tired of it, and we're tired of the lack of management that doesn't give these girls any tips, advice, etc. Personally speaking, I'm a lot more tired of those two things that I have ever been of customers trying to be rude, pushy, etc. - which I have never let bother me very much.
Bridgette
06-14-2004, 02:00 PM
and we're tired of the lack of management that doesn't give these girls any tips, advice, etc. Personally speaking, I'm a lot more tired of those two things that I have ever been of customers trying to be rude, pushy, etc. - which I have never let bother me very much.
I am soooooo with ya there!
LauraLove
06-14-2004, 10:00 PM
WHEN WHAT THE BUYER WANTS IS ILLEGAL.
Anyway, Bridgette, this misses the point
My point is that IF (that's "if": lotsa girls here have persuasively argued they can make a good living doing only low-contact dances) what most customers are willing to pay for are services (legal or not: it really doesn't matter) that a dancer is not willing to sell, then she's going to have to rethink her career choice. Same as in any profession.
No Bridgette is dead on Rath, you or any other customer does not have any right to expect or demand illegal sevices from dancers. Just like people don't have the right to demand a pharmacy give morphine without Dr. approval. There's alot of junkies out there that want to be able to go to Walgreens and pick up their drugs but that doesn't mean that Walgreens should go out of business because they won't sell morphine to any Tom, Dick or Harry.
I swear if you guys spent half as much time improving yourselves as you do scheming on how to get a dancer to do extras you might not have to pay women for attention and sex.
All this talk about illegality is a ruse, a red herring.
In most places in this country, non-extras lap dances are illegal. Most of what every girl on this board does every day she works is illegal. In most places in this country, you could not make a living as a stripper without breaking the law every day you go to work.
If customers have no "right" to want extras cuz they're illegal, then they have no right to want lap dances, either, for the exact same reason.
Illegality CAN'T be what's bothering you.
I can think of lots of good reasons girls wouldn't want to engage in extras. The idea of getting intimate with strange unattractive middle-aged people skeeves me out, too. But PLEASE do us all the favor of being honest about your motivations.
To me, the last sentence of Laura's post says it all. You're contemptuous of us. I don't blame you. But here on the board (this isn't the club, where it's your job to be dishonest), don't fucking lie to us.
Bridgette
06-15-2004, 11:35 AM
All this talk about illegality is a ruse, a red herring.
In most places in this country, non-extras lap dances are illegal. Most of what every girl on this board does every day she works is illegal. In most places in this country, you could not make a living as a stripper without breaking the law every day you go to work.
If customers have no "right" to want extras cuz they're illegal, then they have no right to want lap dances, either, for the exact same reason.
Illegality CAN'T be what's bothering you.
I can think of lots of good reasons girls wouldn't want to engage in extras. The idea of getting intimate with strange unattractive middle-aged people skeeves me out, too. But PLEASE do us all the favor of being honest about your motivations.
To me, the last sentence of Laura's post says it all. You're contemptuous of us. I don't blame you. But here on the board (this isn't the club, where it's your job to be dishonest), don't fucking lie to us.
So now I'm a liar because I say I don't want to go to jail for $20? That was a jackass post Rath. Good job stooping to that level :great:
If my reason for not wanting to do extras had anything to do with being "skeeved out" or anything else you're trying to accuse me of directly or indirectly, I WOULDN'T BE DANCING AT ALL. You are totally offbase.
polecat
06-15-2004, 07:10 PM
Gee... a guy talking black and white, and women arguing about the greys.. Yah, that doesn't happen often. <giggle>
Rath is arguing "legal risk" from the letter of the law, while the ladies are arguing "legal risk" from the standpoint of what's actually a real and tangible risk.
Rath-
You can do 60mph in a 55mph zone and claim no legal risk as the Highway Patrol just simply doesn't enforce this to the letter of the law... it's a grey area since the likelihood of local courts/judges have too low a chance of prosecuting (mechanical limits, accuracy, etc.etc.). This is much the same as vice/undercover cops in regions that have lewd conduct laws wont cite or arrest contact lapdances in regions where these may fall inline with what's to the letter of the law "illegal"...
Now 100mph .. or doing sex services in a stripclub... "legal risk" is a perfectly valid point of rationality since both are most definately going to be enforced, cited and penalized if caught.. and thus carry along a real and tangible risk.
It's a simple concept really... and does come down to black & white versus the grey.
ok, Rath, this is silly.
if you go to mcdonalds and order a hamburger, you cant get mad that they didnt give you cheese sticks, they dont have them, dont ask. if you want cheese sticks you have to arbys. they make them. deal with it.
if you go to a strip club and get a dance be happy with what she gives you. dont try to get her to do more. you can ask her what she does do, although she will make fun of you in the dressing room later. or better yet, get one dance and see if you like it. when you find a dancer who does give a 'dance' that you like, leagal or not, then keep getting dances from her. never try to pursuade a dancer to do somthing she dosnt offer.
try it...
ask mcdonalds for some cheese sticks...
see what kinda look they give you....
and ps... lap dances ARE legal. at least here they are.
pps, and yes I have not done many things because I didnt want a prostitution charge on my record. That can really mess up your life.
TigersMilk
11-23-2004, 11:41 AM
I wish I could have been a dancer back in the early 90's just to see how the industry is and has changed.
I love being on stage being a performer always finding ways to have more fun on stage for myself and for the customer back when I was dancing. I wish it was mostly a straight forward industry were extras and such never existed.
Ive worked at club where it is taboo to do extras as well as you being fired if anyone found out. And..others I was done right afraid to go to the VIP lounge upstairs after hearing what really goes on in there. at that specific club. I didnt want to provide that kind of "service" to customers. All I wanted to give of myself was some great conversation and an unforgettable dance. I wish it were that easy but its not. And, sometimes its upsetting that many girls will have to give out extra just to stay at the top of the money chain. Also, Ive never even been anywhere else that the west coast.
Guys will always ask a girl if she does "more"....I just wonder if that question has always been the same throughout the years of exotic dancing?
But, as far as crossing the line and offering the service of selling lap dances I thought it was always great..and an offer for me to make more than just the stage tips. Maybe I'm too young to see that you could have made a nights income just on the stage alone back in the day when stripping was new and sort of hush hush.
GoldCoastGirl
11-26-2004, 03:40 AM
The strippers in Surfers Paradise, Queensland (Australia) will perform private dances for customers but they are not allowed to actually touch the customer. So, the guy sits down and she dances in front of him, for him.
Ah... you must've lucked out then... you must've happened upon Bad Girls.. you poor thing! I know for a fact that at the other three BETTER clubs (Crazy Horse, Players and Hollywood)... the dancers are most certainly allowed to touch you in the same places that you are allowed to touch the dancer.
I know that I touch the customer (won't touch your crotch just like you aren't allowed to touch mine mind you!).
I just wanted to clear that one up pronto even tho' this thread is now multiple pages deep and found in the "older" section.
Next time do not base your opinion on how the dancers dance just on one club alone. Make sure you have visited 3 of them at the very least.... considering there are 4 within walking distance of one another (same street) and a 5th "down the road" (walking distance).
Just FYI. ;D