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Madcap
06-25-2004, 03:18 PM
I'll go see it, but it is propaganda (I can't deny that).

I'm a lefty, but I know propaganda when i see it.

Melonie
06-25-2004, 03:39 PM
If the movie was so innacurate why doesnt someone make a rebuttle movie proving all of Moore's comments are false? Im going to guess b/c they cant.

You're probably correct that they can't. However, the reason they can't has nothing to do with a shortage of subject material to include in a rebuttal film. The reason they can't is that every major film studio (with the possible exception of Disney) has iron handed control over the purse strings when it comes to financing movie production. Every major film studio makes decisions about which scripts and ideas they will fund for production and which scripts and ideas they will not. And every major film studio has a political position which is far to the left of center, as do the vast majority of Hollywood actors, writers, directors etc.

If you want irrefutable proof of this point, just read up on Mel Gibson's experiences trying to "sell" his last movie to the major Hollywood studios.

I suppose that a conservative philanthropist could always decide to make $10+ million dollars available to get a rebuttal movie produced after all of the major studios refused funding. However, unlike Moore's film, a conservative rebuttal made in this way would most certainly be branded as a paid political advertisement with negative ramifications to Bush's re-election campaign.

Casual Observer
06-25-2004, 03:40 PM
Everyone--even Moore's critics--has said it's well-made, so there should certainly be entertainment value to it.

If nothing else, it has value in bringing debate to the forefront of the public, though I'm afraid of lot of that debate will be sorely lacking in reason and civility.

Madcap
06-25-2004, 03:49 PM
Debate is always good.

Pisces3x3
06-25-2004, 04:35 PM
OK I am definitely going to see this movie on Sunday.... holy mother of God where have I been???? I think I saw something about this movie months ago but had forgotten all about it. MUST SEE THIS MOVIE! I think I spend too much time in my own world LOL.

Djoser
06-25-2004, 04:50 PM
But then he decided that if he injected more fiction and less fact into documentaries--films that by their definition are supposed to be factually correct--he would generate more controversy and thus, more attention, thereby feeding his ego, which continues to balloon like his gut.

...you're really just peddling propaganda and you should say as much. At least that would be honest and respectable.

Still, it...could serve as gospel for those with limited critical thinking capabilities.


Well, Dubya isn't fat, and Rush Limbaugh lost HIS gut--but this sounds remarkably similar to what has been done to the American public by the Bush Administrations (both of them)--allied with the Religious Right for a little help from God, who is apparently the reason Bush is president. No wonder I am an agnostic with atheist leanings.

There are those on this forum who disagree strongly with me about politics, this war, and what kind of bias the media has been crippled by. I am not going to insult their intelligence by accusing them of the possession of "limited critical thinking capabilities."

But the average American citizen is all too easily swayed by political propaganda put out by leftists and reactionaries alike. Apparently, there's not much we can do about that, except possibly create a Gestapo to shoot a traitor like Moore for daring to suggest our President is infallible. This would probably be greeted with enthusiasm by at least one member of this forum of strippers and their associates.

If NBC is owned by GE, it's not going to be run in a fashion that GE disapproves of. If GE makes weapons and profits from their sale, I don't trust what their television station tells me to believe.

I don't believe what Moore says either, everytime, any more than I do that sack of hot gas Rush Limbaugh, or Ann Coulter, or anyone who tells me I am a traitor for daring to disagree with Bush, backed by God himself.

ace_barker
06-25-2004, 04:52 PM
If you want to know how fair this movie is, after you see the movie there is a part where the US airspace is shutdown after 9/11 and the Saudis were allowed to fly out of the country. Were you under the impression that when the Saudi's flew out the airspace was still closed but the Bush administration let them fly anyway?
Well according to Lahane who moore hired to answer rebuttals about the movie, they never actually "said" the airspace was still closed. In reality when the Saudi's flew the commercial airlines were all flying again.
Michael Moores website is designed and run in Canada. Kind of ironic for the "Roger & Me" guy from Flint Michigan who is supposed to be so pro union and anti outsourcing. I guess there are no web designers in the United States

Tina
06-25-2004, 04:58 PM
I will see the movie. There has to be an element of satire in every movie to make it entertaining.

Look at the news we watch everyday. It is slanted and leans to the right.

Anyone who is conservative is a religious fanatic and has something to gain monetarily from being associated with a political party that focuses all its efforts on fattening big business owners and investors pockets.

This country is fucked. While it may be better than many other countries, it still sucks really bad.

I read Moore's interview with Playboy in the July issue.

I do believe in many things he has said because they make sense.

This administration is shady and the Bush family and their cronies are crooks from way back. They are masters at cover ups and some of their dirt is going to gradually surface.

Anyone on this board who supports the Republican party in any way given the fact that they are anti abortion, pro abstinence, anti gay marriage, anti adult entertainment, have conservative views which in English means old fashioned values, put big business over the average citizen, support harsh drug laws, just to name a few shortcomings should not be dancing, or involved with this business in any way.

Now I am not saying that the Democratic Party is perfect, but it is the lesser of two evils.

All of us SW members who BETTER be liberals (liberals are accepting of peoples differences and not trying to force their beliefs on other people as conservatives do) had better vote and vote for Kerry not because he is the ideal candidate, but because it will get rid of the Bush administration, and then we can work from there to strengthen our personal liberties in this country. Anyone who lives a liberal lifestyle as per the definition above and who votes Republican is a fool.

As Moore's article says if we get 4 more years of Bush, the Supreme Court will be all conservative and more and more of our basic rights will be undermined. The mixing of church with state is bullshit and is a priority with this administration.

And also as he quotes in the article, Bush is an ignorant man and a poor public speaker. And that Ashcroft, Rumsfield, and many others in his inner circle are motivated by a sick combination of religious fundamentalism and corporate greed.

And any of US who support a man who would have Ashcroft in his inner circle is really got a screw loose.

Look at how Chris Rock makes serious issues funny in his shows.

Granted Bush did not ignore the first twin tower crash as Moore states, but Moore is just trying to make serious points entertaining. Bush and his people ARE scams.

Bush's no child left behind is a scam. Halliburton being involved in the Middle East rebuilding with no bidding involved is a scam.

Cheney and Bush were involved in Enron type scandals but they are sealed.

Every indescretion of the Bush family is covered up and has been for years.

The oil is the reason Bush and his cronies are focused on Iraq. Texas oil roots and money run deep. Do some research on Texas oil tycoons. There is so much corruption in their circles that it is unbelievable it stays covered up. Bush has fucked up our relations with many other countries, hasn't he?

Anyone who can't see through this administration is clearly a fool.

His obligations are to the people who contributed to his campaign, not to us. He is in bed with the church. Why the hell do you think there is so much anti abortion money out there and so many anti obscenity and decency groups undermining our business and anything that is sexually liberal???

Of course Disney and Miramar won't back his film. They are big business and they will not get involved with something controversial like that. All big businesses are in bed with those in power anyway. The media doesn't portray stripping in a positive light either, does it? Does that make our careers bullshit just like some of you are saying his film is? Right wing people are NOT going to back something that could hurt them, are they???

Moore has to do what he has to do to fight this fucked up administration with his film. So he uses a little exaggeration. This is a movie for Christ's sake.The underlying truth behind his exaggerations still exists.

So, it makes sense to look at what's right with Moore's film and interview, doesn't it? He is doing the best he can with the money available to him, isn't he?

He is trying to help us get Bush out of office, isn't he?

And all of us who are not devout church goers, who are strippers, who patonize strip clubs and adult venues, who derive income from this business, who have had an abortion or may have a need for one in the future, who are gay, who have been convicted of a drug crime, and want more drug decriminalization, who don't want big brother knowing everything about their private life more so than they already do, and who want to see this country get more on the liberal track SHOULD appreciate and support the film and make sure our vote is made AGAINST that fucker Bush, shouldn't we?


Anyone of us here who doesn't have the intelligence to see the importance that this movie along with rappers pushing to register non traditional voters in large urban cities has, should really take a good hard look at themselves, shouldn't they?


>:(

ace_barker
06-25-2004, 05:17 PM
I will see the movie. There has to be an element of satire in every movie to make it entertaining.

Look at the news we watch everyday. It is slanted and leans to the right.


I got 2 sentences into your post and had to ask if you found Schindlers list to be entertaining? I did but I missed the satire?
Do you really believe that the news leans right?????? Is it the way the news has downplayed the "prison scandal" and just keeps pounding us with news stories about Vladamir Putin warning Bush that Iraq was planning to attack the US per Soviet intelligence. Something else that bugs me about the media is how they keep putting Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly & Sean Hannity on CBS's 60 minutes to promote their books while not allowing people like Richard Clark, Bill Clinton and Bob Woodward on.
Go see the movie but take it for what it is. A piece of fiction.

Djoser
06-25-2004, 05:22 PM
Anyone on this board who supports the Republican party in any way given the fact that they are anti abortion, pro abstinence, anti gay marriage, anti adult entertainment, have conservative views which in English means old fashioned values, put big business over the average citizen, support harsh drug laws, just to name a few shortcomings should not be dancing, or involved with this business in any way.

Now I am not saying that the Democratic Party is perfect, but it is the lesser of two evils.

All of us SW members who BETTER be liberals (liberals are accepting of peoples differences and not trying to force their beliefs on other people as conservatives do) had better vote and vote for Kerry not because he is the ideal candidate, but because it will get rid of the Bush administration, and then we can work from there to strengthen our personal liberties in this country.



Precisely the point I have been trying to make repeatedly on this forum, though I would draw the line when you say they shouldn't be dancing, since so many dancers and especially so many dancers' customers, are Republican--and that's not likely to change.

But what do you think Bush, et al, think about STRIPPERS??!!

The religious right wants to SHUT US DOWN. I have nothing against Republicans whatsoever, many of my closest family members and friends are members of the party. But the fucking bible beaters need to be told to stay out of politics--ie the Republican (or any) Party--not to mention our sex life and options for literary or other entertainment.

Inevitably those who are oblivious to the true desire of the current administration and it's backers concerning the adult industry will proclaim that there are democrats who are opposed to stripclubs as well.

True enough, Catharine MacKinnon, Tipper Gore, and the Governor of Michigan, Jennifer Granholm (whose husband was caught in a raid on a strip club, lol--though detroit strippers and DJs aren't laughing anymore) are all doing everything they can to ensure that noone ever sees a woman dance nearly naked again.

But look at the percentages of Republicans who have condemned adult entertainment venues, and the 'evil liberals' who have done so as well.

The Moral Majority and other church-dominated political organizations have had far more Republicans than Democrats as active members. These people are the reason that Playboy cannot be bought in 7-11, and if they had their way, it would be unavailable anywhere at all.

I do NOT condemn all Republicans--other than believing both parties suck monkey dick when it comes right down to it--I just wish those involved in the industry, whether as employees or customers, would quit ignoring the evidence pumped out by their politicians and pundits, and defend their livelihood--and their rights as freethinking citizens.

DancerWealth
06-25-2004, 05:45 PM
Anyone on this board who supports the Republican party in any way given the fact that they are anti abortion, pro abstinence, anti gay marriage, anti adult entertainment, have conservative views which in English means old fashioned values, put big business over the average citizen, support harsh drug laws, just to name a few shortcomings should not be dancing, or involved with this business in any way.



Interesting. I'm a card-carrying member of the Republican Party. I have been since the second year of the fist Clinton administration when I finally wised up to the differences between the two parties. Oddly enough, I am anti-abortion, anti-abstinence, anti gay-marriage, pro adult entertainment, pro big business, pro small business, pro medium business, support harsh drug laws, and am involved in this business. I guess I'm just a wrench in the gears of your argument, or a paradigm of the universe...one or the other. Also understand though that not all Republicans are ultra right wing bible thumpers just the same way not all Democrats are Michael Moore, socialistic, kool-aid drinkers.

Tina
06-25-2004, 06:10 PM
Again, I am not saying the Democratic Party is perfect, and they are not going to bend over backwards for our business either.

I am just saying that the conservatives are forcing people through legislation to live a fundamentally conservative lifestyle, or else.

I have nothing against people who live different lifestyles than me, but I am not going to force the legal channels to make other people live life the way I like it.

I could care less who has an abortion. It is their body. Gay people being married doesn't make me lose sleep at night any more than knowing a strip club is down the street concerns me. As long as people don't interfere with my life I won't interfere with theirs.

This is about personal freedoms. Sure Republicans go to strip clubs. But if they choose to affiliate themselves with a party that worships traditional values, they are hippocrites.

I am not Michael Moores personal supporter either. But what he is promoting benefits us all.

Democrats aren't backing us either, but the fundamentals of the party give us a better chance of survival than with the moral majority types who can't rationalize anything further than what their bible says.

Our business has taken a very bad hit with this administration in office. Sure it started before he was elected but with more conservatives in power we are feeling the pinch in a bad way.

A person can choose to not want an abortion for herself but not pound the pavement trying to make it illegal for those who get pregnant accidentally and don't want to disrupt their life for 9 months.

It's all about respecting peoples differences, not forcing them to change citing the bible as the reason behind it.

That is what we stand to lose big time with 4 more years of Bush.

DancerWealth
06-25-2004, 06:33 PM
I am just saying that the conservatives are forcing people through legislation to live a fundamentally conservative lifestyle, or else.

I have nothing against people who live different lifestyles than me, but I am not going to force the legal channels to make other people live life the way I like it.


I agree with you 100%. On the same tolken though, you also have to understand that liberals do the exact same thing you just critisized conservatives of doing. Conservatives try to change policy through legislation and liberals try to change policy from the bench. It's six to one, half a dozen to the other. Don't kid yourself, liberals try and force people into their beliefs all the time through the legal process. They want you to have the right to choose aborting your child but don't want you to have the choice to own a gun in spite of it also being part of our constitution. Both sides try and ram their views down each other's throat...BOTH sides. Welcome to politics.

Casual Observer
06-25-2004, 07:12 PM
Conservatives try to change policy through legislation and liberals try to change policy from the bench.

One of these is constitutional, one is not.

Guess which is which?

Sitri
06-25-2004, 07:54 PM
ERRR,
May I prefice this with IMHO.

I love debates like this. The naivete combined with the idealism of the young makes life interesting.

One side trys to say it is east and the other side is west. In reality, one is south south east and the other is south south west. There is very little difference when you get into it. These two parties are slightly different shades of grey searching for what will move them from 49% to 51%.

People are acting like only Republicans send soldiers to war and conveniently ignore the Democrats who did the same thing. If you look at the accuations and the counter claims, you can subsitute the same for any party .... just pick the right president and you just substitute the name.

Relative to 9/11. Even the national news tonight picked apart the facts in this movie and how misleading and biased it is. If you are looking for a biased "documentary" this is it.

I already saw one lousy movie this week- Terminal; I won't waste more on this one.

I still say neither side is perfect. There are platform planks I like in each party. It just depends on who will do you the most good or least harm.

I still believe the money I earn is mine to spend and I can figure it out better than the government... whether republican and democrat. If you don't believe that, than please send all of your money to me.

If you don't have money, and you don't pay taxes, than don't bitch about the guy who spends $300,000 a year in taxes instead of $400,000. I watch the news and Kerry speak to the LA elite tonight with all of their millions from movies, and songs, and I wondered what makes a rich Barbara Streisand different from a rich republican.?

The people who work hard and make it are not rich, they are hard workers. The people who don't work and inherited $100,000,000 from their hotel owning parents, or their bootlegging grandfather (The Kennedys) are the ones who should be paying taxes and working. Look at the inheritance or estate tax... not the income tax.
That is what needs to change.

This whole 9/11 thing is just a distraction to take you away from the real issues of the economy, taxes, and the screwed up health care system we have.

There are rich democrates and poor republicans ... I bet 99% of us couldn't even define what the real ideoligical differences are. I think we flipped a coin when we were young.

Anyway. just another pointless comment from me...







;D

Tigerlilly
06-25-2004, 08:41 PM
I am anti-abortion

wow that's a pretty brave admission to make here considering your business . Men who think they have the right tell women what they can or cannot do in regards to childbirth are not generaly well recieved by dancers, including this ex-dancer
>:(

DancerWealth
06-25-2004, 08:59 PM
I am anti-abortion

wow that's a pretty brave admission to make here considering your business . Men who think they have the right tell women what can should and cannot do in regards to childbirth are not generaly recieved well by dancers, including this ex-dancer >:(


I don't see it that way which, in my opinion, is the real debate between pro and anti abortion people. I'm really so much anti-abortion as I am anti late-term abortion. Being able to abort a child in the last month or two, or even the last week or two of pregnancy just isn't right. Men, Women, etc. has nothing to do with the debate at that point. If a baby is 8 1/2 months old and is taken out of the womb and then has a needle jamed in its head to kill it is wrong...period. Quite frankly, I'm just not passionate about this debate enough to really take a strong stand on when is and when is not the right period of time for when abortions should be illegal. I just know that the late-term abotion issue is just plain bad policy. Of course there are always medical exceptions to this, but I'm talking about as a means of birth control, which, if you ask any abortion doctor, pretty much is 99% of the reasons why women have them, especially late term abortions.

Tigerlilly
06-25-2004, 09:56 PM
I am not a fan of late term procedures either (or using abortion as a form of birth control) and I have heard the opposite info on why those that have late term procedures. It is my understanding that the main reason is due to severe mother health issues where birth would likely end her life or extreem birth defects not found until late in the pregnancy. I also know that these procedures are very rare to begin with.

The late term argument Rep. use is nothing more than a smokescreen for the real agenda- to stop women from having a choice at all- including rape victims.

I don't think anyone has the right to tell a woman how or when to give birth. I also think ALL women should take personal responcibilty of their reproductive life. I am pro birth control, but it should be called pregnancy contol instead imho

But alas we're off topic now so I just leave it at that

Melonie
06-26-2004, 02:43 AM
Democrats aren't backing us either, but the fundamentals of the party give us a better chance of survival than with the moral majority types who can't rationalize anything further than what their bible says.

Our business has taken a very bad hit with this administration in office. Sure it started before he was elected but with more conservatives in power we are feeling the pinch in a bad way

The religious right wants to SHUT US DOWN. I have nothing against Republicans whatsoever, many of my closest family members and friends are members of the party. But the fucking bible beaters need to be told to stay out of politics--ie the Republican (or any) Party--not to mention our sex life and options for literary or other entertainment.

Inevitably those who are oblivious to the true desire of the current administration and it's backers concerning the adult industry will proclaim that there are democrats who are opposed to stripclubs as well.

Where the future of the strip club industry is concerned, one really needs to think the issue through completely. For example western europe, which is very liberal, does not have and cannot support an "American" version of the strip club industry. Basically western europe has a small number of hostess clubs which only hire the best of the best looking highly talented girls to provide no contact eye candy. Western europe then has a large number of sex clubs, where sex on stage and sex with customers is permitted and expected. European clubs which attempt to operate on the "American" strip club business model between these two extremes are usually unsuccessful.

My point is that when liberal politics in an area removes the conservative restrictions in regard to strip club operation, clubs and dancers make lots of money. However, because there are few/no restrictions, it usually requires that a lot more than just dancing must occur in order to earn that money. I give you San Francisco clubs in general as an example, where 'extras' are available in virtually every club in town, and where it's very difficult to earn decent money without doing 'extras' in many clubs.

The underlying premise of "middle of the road" American strip clubs is to work on the conservative inhibitions of customers - providing them nudity and interaction with a sexy girl for a price - a price that they are willing to pay because they can't find that nudity and interaction elsewhere. In a truly liberal culture, nudity and interaction can be found on the beaches and in regular night clubs for free !

Madcap
06-26-2004, 02:49 AM
Melonie~

I don't always agree with you, but i gotta say you have got your shit together!

Melonie
06-26-2004, 02:58 AM
Melonie~

I don't always agree with you, but i gotta say you have got your shit together!


Thank you, Madcap. I guess that I have been "cursed" with an ability to look down the road and see how today's "idealist" principle will turn into tomorrow's "real world" consequence. Unfortunately, in many cases, the eventual real world consequences of implementing the original principle bear little resemblance to the original "idealism". This seems to happen for conservative principles (like the Patriot Act) as well as liberal principles (like abortion rights).

Melonie
06-26-2004, 03:04 AM
If you don't have money, and you don't pay taxes, than don't bitch about the guy who spends $300,000 a year in taxes instead of $400,000. I watch the news and Kerry speak to the LA elite tonight with all of their millions from movies, and songs, and I wondered what makes a rich Barbara Streisand different from a rich republican.?

The difference is that Barbara Streisand gets free air time, while the rich republican must buy that air time (and have the cost figured into campaign finance limits) ! Barbara Streisand also gets to produce a movie a la Michael Moore which offers a grossly inaccurate depiction of Ronald Reagan's political history for which she was paid well, while the conservative millionaire had to wait for Ronald Reagan to die to see his political history somewhat accurately depicted in news coverage.


Also understand though that not all Republicans are ultra right wing bible thumpers just the same way not all Democrats are Michael Moore, socialistic, kool-aid drinkers

exactly ! In fact, the majority of big spending strip club customers seem to share your selected Republican views. Ironically, the majority of big spending customers of escorts appear to be Democrats ! Any theories on that observation ?

ace_barker
06-26-2004, 06:46 AM
I am anti-abortion

wow that's a pretty brave admission to make here considering your business . Men who think they have the right tell women what can should and cannot do in regards to childbirth are not generaly recieved well by dancers, including this ex-dancer >:(


I don't see it that way which, in my opinion, is the real debate between pro and anti abortion people. I'm really so much anti-abortion as I am anti late-term abortion. Being able to abort a child in the last month or two, or even the last week or two of pregnancy just isn't right. Men, Women, etc. has nothing to do with the debate at that point. If a baby is 8 1/2 months old and is taken out of the womb and then has a needle jamed in its head to kill it is wrong...period. Quite frankly, I'm just not passionate about this debate enough to really take a strong stand on when is and when is not the right period of time for when abortions should be illegal. I just know that the late-term abotion issue is just plain bad policy. Of course there are always medical exceptions to this, but I'm talking about as a means of birth control, which, if you ask any abortion doctor, pretty much is 99% of the reasons why women have them, especially late term abortions.


I saw a great bumper sticker yesterday while surfing the net.

Guns don't kill
Abortion clinics do


I'm not anti abortion but ya gotta admit its a great bumper sticker

06-26-2004, 08:21 AM
Anyone on this board who supports the Republican party in any way given the fact that they are anti abortion, pro abstinence, anti gay marriage, anti adult entertainment, have conservative views which in English means old fashioned values, put big business over the average citizen, support harsh drug laws, just to name a few shortcomings should not be dancing, or involved with this business in any way.



Interesting. I'm a card-carrying member of the Republican Party. I have been since the second year of the fist Clinton administration when I finally wised up to the differences between the two parties. Oddly enough, I am anti-abortion, anti-abstinence, anti gay-marriage, pro adult entertainment, pro big business, pro small business, pro medium business, support harsh drug laws, and am involved in this business. I guess I'm just a wrench in the gears of your argument, or a paradigm of the universe...one or the other. Also understand though that not all Republicans are ultra right wing bible thumpers just the same way not all Democrats are Michael Moore, socialistic, kool-aid drinkers.



Yep DW - just like you said it. Whew have I missed a lot. Teach me to go to work!
Big D

Djoser
06-26-2004, 12:03 PM
My point is that when liberal politics in an area removes the conservative restrictions in regard to strip club operation, clubs and dancers make lots of money. However, because there are few/no restrictions, it usually requires that a lot more than just dancing must occur in order to earn that money.


But as you have pointed out numerous times elsewhere, the conservative laws almost invariably have the same result, though certainly not what the creators of the legislation intended--with the additional effect of making the dancers, who are considered prostitutes in the eye of the law for rubbing a customer's leg, sexual offenders who must carry this stigma for the rest of their lives.

I'll take my chances with laws that don't make stripping or lap-dancing crimes, and dancers criminals to be castigated and reviled by the general public.

Madcap
06-26-2004, 12:07 PM
Amen to that.

Adina
06-26-2004, 01:40 PM
San Francisco "where 'extras' are available in virtually every club in town," according to Melonie...what a complete fucking bunch of nonsense. Have you ever WORKED in San Francisco, Melonie? Assuming your statement is true, which it isn't - rabid liberals are responsible for the degeneracy of our clubs...how exactly does HOUSTON fit in to your argument, hmmm? Houston isn't exactly a hotbed of liberalism, the last time I checked. This shouldn't come as a surprise to me, since you have always demonstrated an awfully selective memory of NYC club history...remember 42nd street before it was Disnified? Remember the Harmony Theatre?

I'm amazed that people in this business (the sex industry, remember?!), who are considered to be on the fringes of society by many, particularly of the Christian Coalition ilk, continue to be patsies for the Republican Party, its warmongering, lining the pockets of big business, and sticking its nose into the personal lives of Americans. How can you be so foolish? Are you blind? Are Tigerlilly, Tina, and Djoser the only people here with brains in their heads?

Here's an interesting little tidbit:

http://www.sfbg.com/38/39/art_film_fahrenheit_taiara.html

Of course, we must completely discount this journalism, as it comes from San Francisco, where we are all liberal, queer, and - gasp! - men get blown in strip clubs! No, this article must be a complete fabrication - it couldn't possibly be gospel, like Fox News and CNN.

DancerWealth
06-26-2004, 01:57 PM
Are you blind? Are Tigerlilly, Tina, and Djoser the only people here with brains in their heads?


I know...us waskally webublicans are just a bunch of idiots who want to take over the universe. Spare me.



Here's an interesting little tidbit:

http://www.sfbg.com/38/39/art_film_fahrenheit_taiara.html


Yeah, because I've never heard of Liberal organizations do the same thing. PETA, Planned Parenthood, and the Global Warming crowd do it all the time.



Of course, we must completely discount this journalism, as it comes from San Francisco, where we are all liberal, queer, and - gasp! - men get blown in strip clubs! No, this article must be a complete fabrication - it couldn't possibly be gospel, like Fox News and CNN.


First of all, if you are going to even suggest that the Clinton News Network is anywhere right of center, you are wrong. Seoond of all, I'm curious why when a left-wing new source is quoted that's fair, but when a middle of the road organization (not far right as many libs suggest) like Fox News reports something, it's "biased" and "unfair". That's why I love the slogan of Fox News..."Fair and Balanced" because they are...certainly moreso than 99% of the other media outlets. In Vegas, we have the Las Vegas Review Journal as our main paper which is pretty middle of the road. When I travel to other cities and see the drivel that other newspapers print my jaw hits the floor it's so left-wing. I go to Orlando a lot and their newpaper there is nothing short of written by the editorial staff of Pravda. I can only imagine what the San Francisco papers are like. The reason Fox News comes under such fire as being "far right" is because so many other news outlets are so far left, that when you get near the middle, it seems so dramatically different. At least Fox News has the guts to even say they have liberals working for them unlike the bulk of the rest of the industry. With people like Alan Colmes and Geraldo working for them all the time, to even suggest they are far right is laughable.

livenudegirlsunite
06-26-2004, 03:09 PM
Attention-- all concerned citizens who are not a Guardian of Plutocracy-- I would highly recommend that you go to the store to buy a CD ROM of a book called The Republican Noise Machine by David Brock. www.mediamatters.org It is extremely detailed research that does not make for a quick and easy read. We need power and facts ASAP.
Michael Moore's movie is GREAT but it barely scratches the surface on the disappearance of an independent media.
An independent media is an absolute necessity for a democracy. Because of the anti-intellectual Republican Party’s 30 year long attempt (and success) to get rid of independent media, we are currently living in a plutocracy.
THE AVALANCHE HAS ONLY JUST BEGUN!
You evil Republicans are going to get buried alive!

Deogol
06-26-2004, 03:17 PM
Just saw it. Now, I have been pretty disillusioned by the republicrats and the democons for years now, but there were times I was feeling ill during that movie just watching these people fuck the average american so badly...

Would not want to be a republican these days - but he also went after the democrats showing Daschle and co. supporting the war on the floor of the house. He also went after CBS, NBC, etc. but especially after FOX - which everyone pretty much knows is the polar opposite of CNN.

A lot of time slots were sold out and I was lucky to get a ticket. This thing is going to be huge!

It is also interesting that there is only one theater playing it. Often around here the other theaters share movies - but not this one. One solo theater and all of friggin Austin was going there to see it!

Djoser
06-26-2004, 03:20 PM
Planned Parenthood

What do you have against Planned Parenthood?


...but when a middle of the road organization (not far right as many libs suggest) like Fox News...

I go to Orlando a lot and their newpaper there is nothing short of written by the editorial staff of Pravda.

The reason Fox News comes under such fire as being "far right" is because so many other news outlets are so far left, that when you get near the middle, it seems so dramatically different...to even suggest they are far right is laughable.


You are so very clearly biased to the right, if you think the Orlando paper is leftist--now THAT is funny.

Later--on second thought, it's not at all funny. Orlando is one of the cities that HAS successfully hounded a major portion of their strip clubs out of business, or very nearly so. Especially in the town of Longwood--basically a suburb of Orlando, which is the home of Club Juana, the original Rachel's, and myriad other clubs, half of which are shut down, the remainder being a shadow of their former selves. The Orlando paper was not helpful to these embattled stripclubs, and did little to stave off the victory of Orlando Christian conservatives.

Having a token goofball like Geraldo hardly makes Fox "balanced'.

SaraNLA
06-26-2004, 03:27 PM
Saw the movie yesterday and it made me choke up. How sad, sad, sad that our men are being sent to war and killed for absolutely NO reason (most of them recruited from poor neighborhoods as the movie points out). This has nothing to do with whether you are democrat or republican, guys!!! This has to do with rich people making decisions with no concern for the lives of our military men.

The best part is when Michael Moore hands out military recruiting phamplets to members of Congress, asking if they would sign their own son or daughter up for the milirary.

Right now, only one member of Congress has a son in Iraq.

Who cares what side you're on -- just see it and educate yourself. None of us are right 100% of the time. Knowledge is a good thing, regardless.

FBR
06-26-2004, 03:37 PM
Why is it that some asshole like Michael Moore can make a movie and it becomes gospel? Seems to me that many of you are looking for a straw to grasp.

FBR

SaraNLA
06-26-2004, 04:02 PM
It's not gospel -- it's just another piece of information helping voters to make an informed decision. I am not a Michael Moore fan, but I am open-minded enough to hear him out.

Djoser
06-26-2004, 04:16 PM
I don't consider it gospel at all. And Moore can be an asshole, no doubt about it. But since he is targeting the biggest, fattest asshole (though my girlfriend seems to think Clinton holds that honor) in the country today, I will probably get a kick out of the movie, even if it isn't a documentary. It is clearly biased.

But no more so than the media that has been kissing the Bush asses for years now. The supposed 'liberal' media bias is probably the one thing I disagree with most on these political threads (as is abundantly clear by now, lol). If anything the bias is conservative, 'Christian' oriented, and pro-Bush (and most importantly for this forum--ANTI-STRIPPER).

I first saw it when both Time and Newsweek put Bush Sr. on the cover of their magazines, at a time when he was not doing so well in the polls (with his first presidential race forthcoming), due to the perception that he was "wishy-washy".

The photograph was one of him at the helm of his yacht, staring grimly and manfully into the elements. It could not have been a better PR photograph and placement for millions of dollars, but instead was free, and quite effective. This was at a time when he should have been strung up by his thumbs for his part in the Iran-Contra affair. Let's not forget he was formerly the head of the CIA, and surely had everything to do with this little hushed-up scandal, which was a hell of a lot worse than any Watergate.

Now here we had a situation where arms were being surreptitiously sold to what were then the worst terrorists in the world, with whom we were sworn never to negotiate (but it's ok to sell them guns). Then we got the drug dealers involved, including our puppet Noriega in Panama--until he started tugging on his leash and had to be sent to the doghouse. Then we gave the proceeds, without the legal approval of the American people, to the "heroic" rebels in Nicaragua, who were prone to use violence against neutrals with amazing equanimity.

All of which was OK, becuse they were killing commies, along with those nuns that got in the way.

I actually think the press has been extremely easy on Bush Jr., especially concerning his bullshit PR campaign to start the war because of WMDs. Of course Hussein is not going to "gift-wrap' the fucking things, but if he had anywhere near as many as Colin Powell asserted, complete with a dog and pony slideshow, we would have found some by now--and not just what we sold them when they were 'on our side' a few years back...

polecat
06-26-2004, 04:48 PM
The way I see it...

The cinema is the place we go when we want something inside ourselves to be stirred. It's an escape using this interesting form of artistic expression to move us and for a limited time step outside ourselves and look at things from a different angle.

We see comedies when we want to laugh, harsh drama's when we want to cry, and Michael Moore movies when we want to be aggravated or otherwise frustrated.

This is the purpose his movies are designed to incite, regardless of one's stance. Supporters of his viewpoints are aggravated, nay sayers to his viewpoints are also aggravated. The only real thing that divides a Michael Moore film from the rest of the herd is his subject matter is rooted on real-world and non-fictional events.

The debates like seen here all assume that people going to see Michael Moore movies are going to them to somehow "learn", be educated or otherwise be pursuaded. I believe this is an incorrect assumption. People walking into the theatre already bring with them their own ideals, concepts, theories and beliefs.. the movie either pulls upon them to strengthen zeal/frustration or his concepts go against them so strongly that the same end result occurs. It's truly an interesting method he's used to capture the same feeling for both kinds of viewers.

In the end folks, they are just movies.. a form of expression. They are a paid form of entertainment that we can invest into in order to be stirred if the stirring appeals to our current mood. If they were documentaries, they wouldn't be in the movie theatre but instead on PBS or Discover channel, but instead Michael Moore movies are designed by an artist who uses an usual and unique way to create the desired response.

doc-catfish
06-26-2004, 05:01 PM
I am anti-abortion

wow that's a pretty brave admission to make here considering your business . Men who think they have the right tell women what they can or cannot do in regards to childbirth are not generaly well recieved by dancers, including this ex-dancer
>:(


Not to throw a baseball through the plate glass window that is anyone' sacred belief system here, but it is possible for someone to consider that something is morally wrong, yet despite that think that it should be legally available.

There's a clear difference between making a case for one's personal morals and insisting that they be rammed down their neighbor's throats by force of law.

doc-catfish
06-26-2004, 05:15 PM
First of all, if you are going to even suggest that the Clinton News Network is anywhere right of center, you are wrong. Seoond of all, I'm curious why when a left-wing new source is quoted that's fair, but when a middle of the road organization (not far right as many libs suggest) like Fox News reports something, it's "biased" and "unfair". That's why I love the slogan of Fox News..."Fair and Balanced" because they are...certainly moreso than 99% of the other media outlets.

I'd disagree DW, in fact I think all the news channels including FOX News are propagandistic garbage. People generally watch the one that best fits their political viewpoints and just assume that channel to be "balanced" and the channel that runs counter to their viewpoints to be "biased". I'm all for people having choices, but people choosing the media outlets that only reinforce their beliefs has precisely led to the "sheep" political culture in this country.


At least Fox News has the guts to even say they have liberals working for them unlike the bulk of the rest of the industry. With people like Alan Colmes and Geraldo working for them all the time, to even suggest they are far right is laughable.


Alan Colmes is a "token liberal". He's only on Fox News so they can cover its ass against claims of bias, (well that and to be Sean Hannity's personal whipping boy). I mean look at Colmes. He just looks like some whiny lawyer for the ACLU. I'm sure Hannity putting him down every weeknight resonates well with most Fox viewers. Like I said, its pure propaganda.

As for the other networks, what about Bob Novak or Tucker Carlson on CNN, or Pat Buchanan or Joe Scarborough on MSNBC?

DancerWealth
06-26-2004, 05:54 PM
I am anti-abortion

wow that's a pretty brave admission to make here considering your business . Men who think they have the right tell women what they can or cannot do in regards to childbirth are not generaly well recieved by dancers, including this ex-dancer
>:(


Not to throw a baseball through the plate glass window that is anyone' sacred belief system here, but it is possible for someone to consider that something is morally wrong, yet despite that think that it should be legally available.

There's a clear difference between making a case for one's personal morals and insisting that they be rammed down their neighbor's throats by force of law.


Thank you.

SaraNLA
06-26-2004, 06:14 PM
Polecat - you make some great points. But I did learn a LOT in that movie -- I hadn't realized the web of business ties between Bush's family and friends and the Bin Ladins. Also, it gives you some insight into what Bush is really like when he is "off camera".... I had no clue about any of this.

As far as this movie not 'changing anybody's opinion', I have never voted in my life, and I am going to do so this election.

Tina
06-26-2004, 06:25 PM
Just got back from seeing the movie.

As LNGU says it is just the tip of the iceberg. I have had an eerie feeling about the Bush family all along. They are beyond crooked and the ringleader is old daddy Bush. Any fool can see old man Bush is as crooked as a jaybird.

The movie was cleverly done to use snippets of actual conversations so as to avoid any slander suits.

Some humor of course was added as was sadness to really prompt the people like most of us, and the non white population feel driven to get out and vote.

How many news stories will you see on Cnn, Fox, ABC, CBS, and NBC regarding interviews with troops who feel the war has no purpose, and that they feel badly taking innocent peoples lives.

Or the fact that the black race is victimized and used to carry out dirty work. Our race who has been held back by the white men of power like the Bushes for years is exploited for their gain to fight a war that was complete fabrication. Old daddy Bush and the boys behind closed doors talk about holding those niggers down all the time, don't they?

And don't let Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powell, and Rod Paige fool you. They are just token blacks designed to make them seem color blind in regards to race. Colin Powell actually has some integrity and I feel is using the position he was given for some higher purpose we will find out about in the future.

At some point he may be the one to collapse the Bush dynasty.

Rod Paige as a school superintendent in Houston was the flunky used to enforce Bush's no child left behind policy as many of you saw aired on 60 minutes. At Sharpstown high school there which was an example of improved test scores, Paige padded the books. The teachers were taching the test and were threatened with loss of jobs if test scores didn't rise in a school which is all black and english as a second language asians and hispanics, many whom can't read anywhere near their grade level. Paige played the Uncle Tom black role and sold his people and students out to get promoted to Secretary of Education in Washington. The schools in Houston have serious funding problems and high drop out rates. Another Bush lie.

And yes I think his movie will move more blacks to get out and vote.

The amount of power the Bush family has in Texas especially Houston is astounding. I have known that for some time.

And the thing that has bugged me way before seeing this film bring it to light is how the Bush family and their counterparts can be involved in acts that have imprisoned others who have commited them and it's like the crime never happened when the Bushes are involved.

George W and Dick Cheney were both involved in Martha Stewart type scenarios but for more money and they magically disappeared.

And as soon as anything questionable regarding George W's past is brought up on the news, within 48 hours nothing more is said about it and the general public acts unconcerned. George W's daddy has so much clout in this country he is dangerous.

And senior Bush's close family ties to Rev Jerry Falwell.

I read an article in a conservative Tampa paper in 1998 regarding the southern baptist movement to rid this country of the evils of pornography and adult entertainment. the fact that in Tampa the adult industry is a 1.2 billion dollar business made it the #1 industry their and they were fighting it which is still a terrible battle. And that same paper said that with a change in administration they had plans of crippling Las Vegas. Isn't it funny how after the 2000 elections the strip club business in Vegas became a legal nightmare and how it is in a precarious state today?

The Bushes are in cahoots with the church leaders to undermine through legal process the entire adult industry in this country. Why was a man witht the religious convictions of John Ashcroft appointed to the Bush camp? How many contributions to the Bush campaign come from the religious sector?

Bush is working with the churches to help them increase their revenue base through his programs. What do you think the school voucher program is really about? It's about taking federal dollars and giving it to the church under the guise of helping poor childrens parents have a chance of getting a quality education.

Anyone who grew up in the hood knows the parent of a child there 9 times out of 10 is not focused on moving her child to a white private school. this is the ghetto we are talking about here. Half the parents there can barely read themselves and are focused on survival and other issues.

Bush does not want to focus on making the schools better, he is using this as a smokescrren to generate money.

What about George W's association with Ken Lay of Enron? That isn't discussed anymore either, and I'll bet you Lay doesn't do any time.

Cheney's connection as CEO of Halliburton and how they were granted rebuilding contracts in the Middle East. The war in Iraq was fabricated so that all the people in bed with the Bush family can make substantial money. No outside bids for the rebuilding were allowed. Isn't that standard procedure? Yet standard procedure is irrelevant where the Bush administration and associates are concerned.

Where do you think much of the family money came/comes from? Oil. And are any of you so gullible as to think that the Bush family is not profiting and involved in the retail prices of gasoline being high AND even involved with the Arabs in inflating the prices of barrels of oil?

And what really caused Bush to be declared winner of the state of Florida, when Gore had been announced the winner?

Isn't it ironic that his brother just happens to be governor of the state that turned the election results around?


But Clinton has a little extracurricular activity with an intern, and some small dibble dabbles with Whitewater and he is constantly haunted.

This is a SERIOUS issue. Any of you that want to laugh about Michael Moore's objectives or those of the Democratic party need to wake up and smell the coffee.

And Bush says he is a war president. Let's send his daughters over to Iraq.

It's awfully strange how when Michael Moore asked congressmen on the street if they would be interested in sending their sons and daughters to fight in Iraq that they ran the other way, isn't it?

Again that is satire illustrating a key point.

All of you who haven't seen this should go see it and for you doubting Thomases who are die hard Republicans think for a minute if in reality everything discussed in the film is true.

Because deep down, you know it is, and the issues involved with the Bush administration go waaay beyond "just politics".

The Bush adminsitration is fighting mad about this movie and isn't taking it laying down. This type of movie so cleverly timed is a work of art by the producers.

The administration MAY sink under it's own crimes but we can't wait to see if that will happen. They are planning an attack now, you can rest assured. If the general public is smart enough not to be swayed by another Bush lie, their game can be up.

Please everyone vote, and vote Bush OUT of office.

This is a matter of life and death. If you think the 80's were bad, you haven't seen nothin' yet.

Deogol
06-26-2004, 06:55 PM
Saw the movie yesterday and it made me choke up. How sad, sad, sad that our men are being sent to war and killed for absolutely NO reason (most of them recruited from poor neighborhoods as the movie points out). This has nothing to do with whether you are democrat or republican, guys!!! This has to do with rich people making decisions with no concern for the lives of our military men.

The best part is when Michael Moore hands out military recruiting phamplets to members of Congress, asking if they would sign their own son or daughter up for the milirary.

Right now, only one member of Congress has a son in Iraq.

Who cares what side you're on -- just see it and educate yourself. None of us are right 100% of the time. Knowledge is a good thing, regardless.


Indeed... here is what I wrote out before hitting this site:

I just saw Farenheit 9/11 and man, what a great movie!

I have friends and collegues on a couple of web sites and mail lists who are
debating it from the point of view of the democrat and the republican.

But I think this movie goes beyond that. It is from the point of view of those
experiencing the consequences of decisions made by strangers while yet having
the least to say about those decisions.

For example, right at the beginning - he shows how everyone is stuck in strange
cities in airports for three days. Except for those who are connected. The
family members of Bin Laden are whooshed away - the only planes in the sky but
for F16's and themselves.

And why are these Saudi's given this extra care? Watch the movie - it will
have you dropping your jaw.

So while an american citizen is made to drink her own breast milk to get on a
plane, Saudi foreigner's with business connections to all the elite of the
country are given carte blanche pass to high tail it before any investigation,
any pause for thought - just whisked away in their own private airplanes.

A lot of connections are made - and if true - this country is in more trouble
than we really think it is. Nearly ten percent of our economy is involved with
the Kingdom of Saud. If the Saud government goes down in flames - our economy
will be in severe trouble.

It certainly shows how our leaders have interests far more compelling than you
or I's vote. How the decision of a man thousands of miles away effects a woman
who's son is killed thousands of miles away. It is hard - to watch this common
woman, with really no say in the way things are, deal with the aftermath of the
decisions of the powerful.

She stands before a wall blocking the white house - covered with a green cloth
so that no one can see in.

It shows how we are getting play'ed - play'ed by the republicans, play'ed by
the democrats. Of course, Bush go the most of it, but there were plenty of
democrats looking stupid too. When Conyers (D) was going on about how he
didn't and the rest of the congress doesn't read the bills they are passing
into law - it makes you wonder about the recklessness that occurs up there.
But I suppose our deficit shows the recklousness of our leaders even now.

Thing is going to make it into the history books. And I would be very
surprised if it does not effect the way the election goes.

And indeed, from the sold out performances that I saw today, to the audience
interaction that I saw - we will be seeing more of these types of movies.
Because, as he skewer's the media - the so called news who should keep us
informed - we don't have any other choice but a movie to see what is going on.

Perhaps, it is, history repeating it's self, where people go to the movie
theaters for those "news reels" that kept them informed of the world outside.

Sitri
06-26-2004, 07:14 PM
Hmm. does this support the movie?

A Presidential Hug


Claim: Photograph shows President Bush hugging the daughter of a 9/11 victim.

Status: True.

Example: [The Washington Dispatch, 2004]


Bush Photo with Teen Shows Conviction and Compassion

It started out as a fluke. Lynn Faulkner had been offered an extra ticket to a Bush campaign event by his neighbor Linda Prince. Mr. Faulkner decided to offer it to his 15-year old daughter Ashley who he expected would decline, as she would have to miss some school to attend. But his daughter surprised him. Ashley reminded her dad how four years ago they attended a similar event when then Texas Governor George W. Bush visited the same spot on the campaign trail.

Ashley remembered attending that event with both her father and her mother Wendy Faulkner. It was raining that day and they all stood in the rain awaiting Governor Bush "eating Triscuit crackers" enjoying the time together and hoping to get a glimpse of the would-be president. Ashley recalled holding her mothers hand as they waited. So she decided to go again this year, but this time her mother could not attend. Wendy Faulkner was murdered on 9/11/01 in the south tower of the World Trade Center. She was there on the 104th floor for a one-day meeting. Ashley decided to miss school in honor and remembrance of her mother and attend the event.


Origins: On 4 May 2004, a campaign swing through the Midwest saw President Bush visiting Lebanon, Ohio, where — as he worked the crowd outside the Golden Lamb (the state's oldest inn) — he was photographed giving a comforting hug to 15-year-old Ashley Faulkner, whose mother was killed in the September 11 terrorist attacks on the U.S. The moment was captured with a digital camera by Ashley's father, Lynn Faulkner. (Ashley's mother, Wendy Ruth Faulkner, a vice president of a risk management and insurance brokerage company, was working in the South Tower of the World Trade Center on September 11 and did not suvive the collapse of the building.)

An editorial about the story behind the photograph can be found at the Washington Dispatch web site, which also includes a page of reader-submitted commentary about the story.

Additional information: Bush Pauses to Comfort Teen (Cincinnati Enquirer

Melonie
06-26-2004, 07:27 PM
San Francisco "where 'extras' are available in virtually every club in town," according to Melonie...what a complete fucking bunch of nonsense. Have you ever WORKED in San Francisco, Melonie? Assuming your statement is true, which it isn't - rabid liberals are responsible for the degeneracy of our clubs...how exactly does HOUSTON fit in to your argument, hmmm? Houston isn't exactly a hotbed of liberalism, the last time I checked. This shouldn't come as a surprise to me, since you have always demonstrated an awfully selective memory of NYC club history...remember 42nd street before it was Disnified? Remember the Harmony Theatre?

Actually, yes - I used to make the rounds to MSC, until the 'extras' expectations started affecting features incomes as well as the house girls.

Adina, I realize that not every dancer in SF does extras, and that not every club allows extras. However, a number of clubs have openly promoted the availability of 'extras' and most of the other clubs are not very diligent about preventing some dancers from offering 'extras' in the privacy of the back rooms thus the statement "extras are available in virtually every club in San Francisco". This is all the direct result of the former San Francisco DA's stated policy that prostitution would not be investigated and prosecuted as long as it was not occurring on the street. Granted, there is apparently a new DA who has begun to reverse policy, and the blatant 'extras' clubs have been busted as a result.

I totally agree with you that Houston is probably the ultimate example of republican hypocracy - where city officials require dancer's licensing and officially condemn 'extras', yet arrangements are reached between local cops and clubowners such that club busts virtually never occur, or are given ample advance notice to temporarily clean up their act.

There's nothing selective at all about my memory in regard to NYC clubs and 'extras'. 42'nd street resulted from liberal administrations through the 70's and 80's much the same as happened in San Francisco, and only changed to a conservative course as a result of former "conservative" (by NYC standards anyhow) mayor Juliani's anti-dance club crusade. The intended result of that crusade was the cleaning up of Times Square so that the city could cut a deal with Disney, Warner Bro's etc, and boost the tourist appeal of that part of Manhattan and NYC tax revenues, which was achieved. However, I'm not kidding myself to think that 'extras' were eradicated from NYC clubs - and lately the 'extras' factor in the area has been on the increase.

ace_barker
06-26-2004, 07:30 PM
Tina you are really on top of things, It is pitiful the way Bush faked out all the blacks by appointing Condaleeza Rice and Colin Powell to those low ranking jobs.
those Saudi family members were whooshed away after the airways were reopenned NOT when only F16's were flying. If you don't believe that go to Michael Moores own website (produced in Canada btw). Did you notice how Moore likes Richard Clark? Well when testifying in front of the 9/11 commission Richard Clark stated that he gave the Saudis the authority to leave the country and Bush was not consulted. The FBI had interviewed 50 of them and was done questioning them. This was on CSPAN.
Makes a good movie but if Michael Moore was anti semitic and remade Schindlers list just think of all the innocent Nazi's who would die in his movie from mistreatment from jews.

Melonie
06-26-2004, 07:40 PM
Perhaps, it is, history repeating it's self, where people go to the movie theaters for those "news reels" that kept them informed of the world outside

This is probably a 'truer' statement than you realize. I would very much equate Michael Moore's movie with WW2 movietone newsreels, because in both cases the content was specifically edited to promote particular conclusions being drawn which the producers wished to convey. Important content was also deliberately left out because it was incompatible with those particular conclusions. The only major difference is that the movietone newsreels were edited to promote government sanctioned conclusions, while Moore's film was edited to promote Moore's own conclusions.

For the record, no non-military aircraft flew in US airspace after the 9/11 attack prior to the September 14th official reopening of US airspace by the FAA. The fact that commercial airlines had been forced to land their planes at the nearest airport on the morning of 9/11 and were totally out of position to immediately resume a commercial flight schedule, while privately owned aircraft were able to take off for their destinations as soon as the FAA reopened US airspace, has absolutely nothing to do with Moore's supposed conspiracy theory.

Melonie
06-26-2004, 07:49 PM
The debates like seen here all assume that people going to see Michael Moore movies are going to them to somehow "learn", be educated or otherwise be pursuaded. I believe this is an incorrect assumption. People walking into the theatre already bring with them their own ideals, concepts, theories and beliefs.. the movie either pulls upon them to strengthen zeal/frustration or his concepts go against them so strongly that the same end result occurs.

Thing is going to make it into the history books. And I would be very surprised if it does not effect the way the election goes

As far as this movie not 'changing anybody's opinion', I have never voted in my life, and I am going to do so this election.


Michael Moore, the liberal fringe, and Hezbollah thank you for your vote !

All I ask is that 10 years from now, you look backwards and see if a 'turning point' occurred in America as a result of this film and the 2004 presidential election results.

Tigerlilly
06-26-2004, 08:04 PM
How many news stories will you see on Cnn, Fox, ABC, CBS, and NBC regarding interviews with troops who feel the war has no purpose, and that they feel badly taking innocent peoples lives.


You are so right !

I have some personal/family stories of it though-- I come from a largely military family. My father retired as Col. after 24 years in the Army-- he fought in Germany (I had an older Dad- born in 1921- passed in 99) Korea and was in the Pentagon during Vietnam (he left the Army during this time because he didn't agree with that war)

I have 3 cousins who are serving now-and are in the process of getting out because they disagree with the direction we have gone in.

I have two uncles both high ranking officers -- one is a lawyer with the JAG office and is deeply in the know and is part of negotiations in Turkey. He can't say much ofcourse but is also planning on leaving after his work his completed. The other uncle is a OGBYN with the Navy and he has made some comments that lead me to believe he also disagrees with the direction the administration has taken our military.

Adina
06-26-2004, 08:08 PM
There's nothing selective at all about my memory in regard to NYC clubs and 'extras'. 42'nd street resulted from liberal administrations through the 70's and 80's much the same as happened in San Francisco, and only changed to a conservative course as a result of former "conservative" (by NYC standards anyhow) mayor Juliani's anti-dance club crusade.


Time to re-open those history books, Melonie.

John Lindsay '65 to 73, was a Republican until 1971.
Abe Beame was a Democrat (73-77)
Ed Koch, 1978 to 1989 - Republican.
Guiliani was elected in 1994 - and his morality crusade didn't start until 1998. Bear in mind his aim wasn't to prevent dirty dancers from giving blowjobs - it was to shut down all strip clubs, period.
Our current mayor, Bloomberg, is a Republican - is it his influence that has caused strippers at VIP and elsewhere to start dishing out extras?

Deogol
06-26-2004, 08:19 PM
Perhaps, it is, history repeating it's self, where people go to the movie theaters for those "news reels" that kept them informed of the world outside

This is probably a 'truer' statement than you realize. I would very much equate Michael Moore's movie with WW2 movietone newsreels, because in both cases the content was specifically edited to promote particular conclusions being drawn which the producers wished to convey. Important content was also deliberately left out because it was incompatible with those particular conclusions. The only major difference is that the movietone newsreels were edited to promote government sanctioned conclusions, while Moore's film was edited to promote Moore's own conclusions.

For the record, no non-military aircraft flew in US airspace after the 9/11 attack prior to the September 14th official reopening of US airspace by the FAA. The fact that commercial airlines had been forced to land their planes at the nearest airport on the morning of 9/11 and were totally out of position to immediately resume a commercial flight schedule, while privately owned aircraft were able to take off for their destinations as soon as the FAA reopened US airspace, has absolutely nothing to do with Moore's supposed conspiracy theory.


I stand corrected about the bin laden family being flown out after the air curfew had been lifted ().

We are not getting anything straight or objective these days, from either side. I think John Kerry and his crew are a bunch of liars and have plenty of interests outside that of the American people, just as the republicans seem to have. If anything, his are probably more interested in wake of "globalism" "free trade" and the WTO.

Both sides are in bed with each other with their own interests.

I think it is unfair for you to construe Hezbollah support for the movie as some kind of endorsement against Moore. After all, it is questioning of the current administration and any enemy will jump on that.

But we the American People should not let debate and dissent disappear from our lands. If we do, then we are really in for a shit storm.

We are in some very serious times.