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montythegeek
06-29-2004, 06:13 AM
hahaha..i got it on DVD yesterday...ill be watching it tonight...and no i still havent read this thread


Now that is a really good idea Mayonaise. Steal Michael Moore's movie!! LOL Then his next movie will be a remake of Abbie Hofman's book "Steal This Book".

Casual Observer
06-29-2004, 06:33 AM
Outsourcing makes up less than 3% of lost jobs. (http://money.cnn.com/2004/06/10/news/economy/jobless_outsourcing/)

You want to hammer on Bush for something, that's cool. You're entitled. Just do it intelligently with some facts.

GWB has a myriad of faults--in policy and personality, as does any executive--but outsourcing isn't one of them.

NVJosh
06-29-2004, 10:22 AM
The bottom line is, you can't get a tax break when you haven't been paying taxes to begin with, and rich people, much as the class warriors in this country hate to admit it, pay most of the taxes in this country--always have, and so long as we have regressive tax policies based on class warfare, always will.

You're absolutely right that most people who declare less than $30,000 a year in income effectively pay no income tax after household tax credits, child care tax credits, and standard deductions are applied. This fact was the source of great republican/democrat debate during the tax cut legislation battle - with the democrats arguing that the US treasury should cut checks paid for by someone else's tax money so that people who actually paid no net income taxes should get someone else's money paid to them in the form of a 'tax refund check'.

On the other side of the spectrum, it's really important to distiguish between 'rich people' (like John Kerry) and people with 'high taxable incomes' (for want of a better example, me!). It is people with 'high taxable incomes' like myself that wind up paying 80+% of ALL income taxes. Even though John Kerry is worth upwards of a half billion dollars, and probably 'gained' over 5 million dollars last year in tax exempt dividends, 'unrealized' capital gains, real estate value appreciation on his five mansions etc. his taxable income only consisted of his government salary as a senator. As a result, I probably paid more in income taxes last year than John Kerry did, even though my house is not yet paid for ! Attempting to confuse taxing people with high incomes like me (which they are actually doing), versus taxing people who are wealthy like themselves (which they are NOT actually doing), is a long time tool of democrats.


Melonie (and others), you're absolutely correct about income taxes...which are only a small part of the picture. That $30,000 a year person pays (in Nevada) $2,295 in FICA and Medicare. And that's just their 1/2 of it. So, without income tax, their take-home is $27,705. The total payroll tax burden is $4,590 (both sides of FiCA/Medicare), $56 (FUTA), $720 (approximate NV Unemployment...can go down over time...however new corporations pay 3% up to yearly limit, which is around $24,000 in 2004) and $210 (NV Modified Business Tax) for a total taxes paid of $5,576. So, the total cost of the $27,705 take-home is $33,281. Meaning, the $27,705 is 83.25% of the total cost of compensating a person, meaning that person pays 16.75% of his or her compensation costs in taxes, even paying $0 in income taxes.

Meanwhile, a person making $2,000,000 a year of dividends and/or capital gains (which is where the majority of the upper income earners make most of their money) pays 15% of it as income taxes, and has no sort of FICA, Medicare, FUTA, SUTA, etc. So, the rich person is paying less in taxes by 1.75%.

It was also these people that got the greatest benefit from the Bush tax cuts. The old rate on capital gains was 20%...that's a 5% reduction or $100,000 in the pocket of the person making $2,000,000 of capital gains and an even greater reduction for dividends which were taxed at ordinary income rates. Meanwhile, the $30,000 a year person, who was paying no income taxes before and is paying none now got, uh, let's see...a $0 reduction. Even if that person didn't have enough credits to knock out all the tax, the maximum reduction would be maybe $1,000 or $2,000 in taxes?

Don't delude yourself that Bush's tax cuts weren't to benefit the rich. They were 100% intended to do that. The stuff given to the middle and lower classes was a bone thrown to keep the bills from dying in filibuster.

NVJosh
06-29-2004, 10:24 AM
As a follow-up, the fact that Kerry wants to roll back the Bush tax cuts is going to be a huge amount of money out of his pocket. Yeah, the tax system is regressive, and I won't argue for or against that at this point, however the recovery was fueled with huge future deficits funded by the tax cuts for the rich, not for the poor.

NVJosh
06-29-2004, 10:27 AM
BTW, the only refund that comes from "taxes paid by other people" of which I'm aware are the Excess Child Tax Credit and the Earned Income Credit. Most other credits are non-refundable, meaning they can not in and of themselves create a refund. The $400/child advance credit payment last year is a weird bastardization made from typical government logic that could generate refunds out of "other peoples taxes", however that was still the exception rather than the rule.

Oh yeah...and these poor people, the ones funding the social security system that will be broke faster because of the huge deficits the Bush tax cuts are creating...its the older generation who will be collecting the taxes they paid.

SpinKitty
06-29-2004, 11:08 AM
It is a stupid movie, in fact it is not even a movie in fact, I would not even call it a documentary. It is a Political Propaganda message. The Message that M. Moore wants to tell is that he advocates an increase number of troops in Iraq but then turns around wanting to withdrawl the troops. The Movie has no basis of truth, it is filled with lies and provides no real conclusive facts to back up the claims. If you see this Movie it shows that you are unamerican and that you think Saddam should still be in power. If you want to watch it go
ahead but it is a lie. If it was my choice we would have nuked a huge portion of the Jihad areas like Sadr City and Fallujah.

ohhhh...a man after my own heart! :heartbeat: Yep! Still here - don't worry kids, you have not freightened me off...Bomb the whole Iraq nation and then build a bunch of McDonalds - that was my idea!
I love you man!!
Big D


Both of you are sick :o Iraq had no connection to 9/11- do you even read the news ? There was this announcement from the 9/11 Commission recently that said after months and months of investigating there is no connection. Besides that most of the Iraqi people are innocent victims. You are advocating killing hundreds of thousands INNOCENT PEOPLE! And that differs from the towers how-besides the fact that it would be several hundred thousand more lives than the towers and for NO REASON WHATSOEVER!

And I see that Big D is against abortion but pro mass murder. Can you say big fat revolting HYPOCRITE!

Djoser
06-29-2004, 03:18 PM
[
Don't delude yourself that Bush's tax cuts weren't to benefit the rich. They were 100% intended to do that. The stuff given to the middle and lower classes was a bone thrown to keep the bills from dying in filibuster.


Damn, NVJosh kicks some ass! Glad to see an accountant back up what I have known all along.

The capital gains tax rates are a travesty, and always have been.

Under the current system, a guy sitting on his ass, other than driving to the bank and depositing his dividend checks, pays far less taxes than anyone who busts their ass trying to make enough to have a good life and send all their kids to college (now costing 30something grand a year for tuition alone where I went).

Of course the rationale for this arrangement is that:

1. The investor is stimulating the economy by letting the company he/she is investing in use his/her wealth to build factories, buy raw materials, etc.

2. Giving the investor the lower tax rate will encourage him/her to reinvest the additional income and thereby stimulate the economy, to build factories, buy raw materials, etc.

All well and good, if it works that way. Meanwhile factory workers have been laid off left and right, CEOs have been jacking up their paychecks to astronomical levels during the past decade, while the much touted 'job growth' we hear about--from people who believe what Bush tells them--is great if you are an illegal immigrant or want to flip burgers for the next twenty years; preferably both.

Meanwhile, Paris Hilton tours the country and entertains us all with her erudite ways and aesthetic style.

FBR
06-29-2004, 03:42 PM
NinaDaisy,are you getting your sources strictly from the movie?My husband gets pay raises every nine months or so and we have the best medical coverage.I have used the shit out of our medical benefits and have yet to pay a single dime.Do you know anyone in the military?If not,then you really have no basis for your statement.


This really gets back to the essence of this thread once again ... that many people who have seen/will see this movie will tend to accept Michael Moore's 'script' as actual fact, and give his story line the benefit of the doubt unless faced with conclusive proof to the contrary.


Melonie, you are being kind by saying "benefit of the doubt". Most take it as absolute gospel and arent interested any info that contradicts their predispositions towards leftist bullshit.

IMO Michael Moore is a traitor who should be stood up against a wall and shot. Going to Europe and badmouthing the US is disgusting. The fuckers getting rich here (if he already isnt) and I bet plays every tax angle he can. He's right up there with Jane Fonda. But at least Hanoi Jane had the guts to publicly frolic with the VC on camera and not hide behind Hollywood glamor and glitz. If MM had any balls under that fat gut of his, he would charter a flight to Iraq, hook up with his beloved terrorists and let everybody know (even you MM worshippers) where his sympathies lie. Oh wait...you dont think hes afraid of being beheaded himself, do you?

There, I feel better now.

FBR

Isis
06-29-2004, 03:44 PM
What ? We can carry children b/c we are free americans .... ok that makes zero sense .

btw she's right most of the people in Iraq are innocent civilians & ur saying we should kill all of them b/c some fundlementalist fight our military ???

As many as 10,000 non-combatant civilian deaths during 2003 have been reliably reported so far as a result of the US/UK-led invasion and occupation of Iraq . These reports provide figures which range between a minimum of 8,235 and a maximum of 10,079 as of Saturday 7th February 2004. http://www.iraqbodycount.net/editorial_feb0704.htm

u really think that all 10,000 of those people were terrorists ?

any other innocent people u want to murder Big DUH :beat:

Isis
06-29-2004, 03:46 PM
IMO Michael Moore is a traitor who should be stood up against a wall and shot.


For what? Questioning bad political practices or using his right to free speech ? Pretty funny stuff coming from a guy who cheats on his wife and brags about it on the internet ::)

U people sure are a blood thirsty bunch wanting to kill anyone who doesnt agree w/ u :-\

everyone here who doesnt lick Bush's behind better run and hide because the patsies want us all dead :o

FBR
06-29-2004, 04:04 PM
IMO Michael Moore is a traitor who should be stood up against a wall and shot.


For what? Questioning bad political practices or using his right to free speech ? Pretty funny stuff coming from a guy who cheats on his wife and brags about it on the internet ::)

U people sure are a blood thirsty bunch wanting to kill anyone who doesnt agree w/ u :-\

everyone here who doesnt lick Bush's behind better run and hide because the patsies want us all dead :o



LMAO Isis Im pleased you read my posts. I didnt know that ;D

At the end of the day, I suppose we can all sit around and talk about whos sins are greater...an admitted adulterer who may do some hurtful things in his tiny little unimportant world or a public figure whos mission is to fuck over his country any way he can and still profit from its largess. Gee, thats a tough one.

Have a nice day ;D

FBR

Isis
06-29-2004, 04:10 PM
mission is trying to fuck over the counrty.... maybe to u..... but to others he's trying to use his talents to better the country.

and I dunno adultry vrs making a mainsteam movie how can u even compare the 2 :-\

u have a nice day too & please use condoms!

Isis
06-29-2004, 04:13 PM
grrr...traitor. :mad: Absolutely - anyone who threatens my country and the freedom that I have. If you feel any other way, why don't you take yer little ass over there! You have no sense of dignity as to what our soldiers are sacrificing for our rights. Why don't you ask them how they feel about killing innocent people? It is their job and one that they volunteered for. I'll bet that they would say the same thing that I am.
Anything that we do is because of the rights that we have as Americans.
:argue: Big D


why dont u take ur ass over there if u feel so strongly about it !

and I have talked to soldiers, I actually know some quite well... DO U ? anyway they tell me many of their fellow soldiers do not like or agree w/ whats going on , that what they are being ordered to do is NOT what they were told they were going over there 4

so dont u go around saying u know what all miltary people think :mad: just b/c some people don't agree w/ this war doesnt make them traitors !

Djoser
06-29-2004, 04:18 PM
IMO Michael Moore is a traitor who should be stood up against a wall and shot. Going to Europe and badmouthing the US is disgusting.

FBR, I have always had a lot of respect for you, but if you're going to shoot M. Moore, you need to shoot Rush Limbaugh and about ten thousand other people, at least, for doing the exact same thing to Clinton during his eight years in office.

He isn't bad-mouthing America, he is bad-mouthing the current President, who has inspired the greatest worldwide protests in history for invading Iraq, instead of mashing Al Queda like bugs in Afghanistan.


...a public figure whos mission is to fuck over his country any way he can and still profit from its largess.

Sounds like an accurate description of GWB, to me...

He went from being an extremely controversial President who barely scraped through the election process, winning by Electoral process rather than popular vote--to being the most lauded and glorified leader America has seen since FDR. Why?

Because a bunch of Saudi-led terrorists blew up part of NYC. What the hell did GWB do? What anyone would have, vilified the perpetrators and promised vengeance--except he used the bloodlust and sheeplike support of the masses of outraged Americans to provide backing for a war which side-tracked the pursuit of justice and settled the score his Daddy didn't quite finish. Since it was a rich Saudi who decided to blow up the WTC, why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia--after all they have oil, too?

Since when is Moore producing his own biased media presentation any worse than what Bush did to win support for his little war? Both used real footage, edited for effect. Both are getting rich as a result (and a whole lot of Bush pals, as well). One of them has brought about the deaths of several hundred Americans as a result of HIS lies, and it ain't Moore.

FBR
06-29-2004, 04:45 PM
Djoser, actually Im not a Bush fan at all. I wish we had a better Republican alternative. But hes all we got at the moment.

What I get pissed at is arrogance. And MM is so full of it his 300 lbs can barely contain it. Seeing all the hero worship for him here on SW as well as in the media and Hollywood is sickening. I hold to my belief that hes a traitor, not a patriot. He hates America (except how wonderfully he can profit from the lemming mentality of the left wingers). How do you justify his comments regarding Americans to the Europeans? Do you believe we are all as ignorant as he claims? Im a firm believer in cleaning your own house but not sharing your personal stuff with outsiders. It just isnt right.

Djoser, Im sorry you no longer respect me. But I still respect you. I dont agree with a lot of your posts but at least you think things to some conclusion and know how to write.

Take care.

FBR

FBR
06-29-2004, 04:46 PM
Oh and BTW, Rush is a pain in the ass. I can only listen to him for about five minutes ;D

FBR

Isis
06-29-2004, 04:50 PM
Hey Big Duh, still wanna claim that Iraq was involved in 9/11 ?

Contrary to the Bush administration's prewar rhetoric, investigators have found no evidence Iraq aided al Qaeda attempts to strike the United States, a commission probing the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks said on Wednesday. http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5441042

There is "no credible evidence" that Saddam Hussein's government in Iraq collaborated with the al Qaeda terrorist network on any attacks on the United States, according to a new staff report released this morning by the commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46254-2004Jun16.html

9/11 panel sees no link between Iraq, al-Qaida
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5223932/

there is "no credible evidence" that Iraq and al-Qaeda cooperated in the attacks of Sept.11, 2001, a U.S. commission report states.
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/06/16/world/septlink040616

No "credible evidence" that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/16/911.commission/

rejecting claims that Al Qaeda had collaborated with Saddam Hussein’s regime on strikes against the United States
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5227257/site/newsweek/

let me guess ur gonna say ALL those news sources are liars too , right ::) get a clue !

Madcap
06-29-2004, 04:53 PM
Lets all take a step back and breathe for a sec. We needen't be getting mad at each other, here.

Skip on over to the "your theme song" thread and groove with me!

Isis
06-29-2004, 05:14 PM
so FBR u think that b/c u don't like him or his work he deserves to die ??? That's the punishment for treason , u do know that right ? I'm sorry but I don't take all this talk of murder that u & Big D are spouting here lightly.

Disagree w/ him or me or whoever.... say why, fine great..... but to call for his death b/c u disagree with him or in Big Duh's case wanting to kill an entire country b/c of the actions of a few is outragous !

ok Mad buddy I'm gonna take ur advice now and move on b/c these people are demented & unworthy of anymore of my attention

FBR
06-29-2004, 05:27 PM
I cant believe Isis is taking this so seriously. Its just a fucking BB.

Well, if the truth be known I wouldnt shoot him. Hell, Ive never shot anything in my life (with a gun that is). How about if I ever get the opportunity I'll just smack him upside the head. Multiple times. And make him take a veryyyyy long time out.

FBR

NVJosh
06-29-2004, 05:39 PM
I cant believe Isis is taking this so seriously. Its just a fucking BB.

Well, if the truth be known I wouldnt shoot him. Hell, Ive never shot anything in my life (with a gun that is). How about if I ever get the opportunity I'll just smack him upside the head. Multiple times. And make him take a veryyyyy long time out.

FBR


FBR...you sound angry..are you upset? Is it that time of the month?

((There, that should deflect complaints away from FBR. ;D ))

NVJosh
06-29-2004, 05:42 PM
For those of you w/o senses of humor....IT WAS A JOKE! :)

FBR doesn't have a time of the month. :)

Damn...this isn't working out nearly as well as I had hoped.

Madcap
06-29-2004, 06:03 PM
:o

sander8son
06-29-2004, 06:05 PM
big d, you're almost as extreme sounding as me. but i'm somehow more balanced in the head, which is scary. you need to look over your posts and re-think some of your logic.

fbr, if you dont like bush, dont vote for him :-D (as long as you're not gonna vote for kerry).

i wouldn't have a problem with nuking all of the middle east. as long as we didn't stop there. total annhilation of the worlds population is key to the future success of the future land-dolphin species that im working on in my basement. ummmmmm, water lab basement.

FBR
06-29-2004, 06:05 PM
Josh LOL Naaaaa Im not upset. I have my opinions as do all the other posters here.

My B/P did pop up a few points when Isis threw up my infidelities in my face. But then I figured what the hell, she just wishes she had me for a customer ;D ;) LOL I can guarantee you she wouldnt turn down my tainted cash LOL

On a serious note, this has been a great thread. I havent changed my mind about anything but it has been damn interesting reading. The posters her are, by and large, well read and even if I dont agree with them I enjoy reading their opinions.

FBR

Madcap
06-29-2004, 06:07 PM
What a wonderful world we are leaving to the cockroaches (And Kieth Richards, who can't be killed by conventional weapons)...

Rhiannon
06-29-2004, 06:12 PM
What a wonderful world we are leaving to the cockroaches (And Kieth Richards, who can't be killed by conventional weapons)...


Ahem.. You forgot Twinkies.. They'll still be around. They are eternal as well.

LOL

A_Guy
06-29-2004, 06:14 PM
I'll be seeing this movie in 30 min.

I'll post a trip report when I get back ;) lol

sander8son
06-29-2004, 06:21 PM
boobies!

FBR
06-29-2004, 06:23 PM
Miss D invited me to go see the movie with her. I told her Id only go if she paid LOL Cant stand the thought of enriching MM's coffers.

Miss D is a left wing pinko but I love her anyways.

FBR

Madcap
06-29-2004, 06:23 PM
;D

JimLovesJazz
06-29-2004, 06:27 PM
Why are people demented just because they don't agree with you?


I think it's more along the lines of demented for wanting to wipe out a nation of people because of a small group of extremist actions. That point of view is very much like the preachings of Osama himself.

But back to the topic.

The movie was interesting and will likely inspire people to research and continue to educate themselves about how this war came to be in the first place. Some of the movie was a little exaggerated to hammer home the points, but that was to be expected as was the one sided approach.

I can't say I found anything to be completely false, however. It did make no bones about why our President invaded Iraq and those reasons have almost nothing to do with the tragedy of 9/11 itself. I find that Bush used the suffering of the 9/11 victims and the heartfelt sorrow the nation felt at that time to convince the country it was right to go into Iraq. In other words he lied to the nation to further his own desires. I only wish that fact had come to light earlier. And in my opinion that action was deserving of impeachment.

I applaud Mr. Moore for having the balls to take on the President and his poor choices for our great country. This movie makes wonderful use of our right to free speech.

Do I think this movie will have a large effect on the election. I highly doubt it becuase as we have seen in this thread those who are die hard Bush supporters won't bother to view the film and instead choose to believe anything the man says. In other words they choose to go living like this : :paperbag:

sander8son
06-29-2004, 06:34 PM
yah, thats exactly what im talkin about mad....

fbr, i was gonna say you and everyone opposed to the movie should go see it. but if you cant bring yourself to support moore(i can understand), sneak in. now if youre not catlike, you can simply buy a ticket to another movie, and instead go into F 9-11. that way, you get to see it, and dont support it all at once! yay! lol.

seriously, im certianly not a leftist, but i still saw it. some parts i rolled my eyes at moore, others i rolled my eyes at bush.

FBR
06-29-2004, 06:44 PM
yah, thats exactly what im talkin about mad....

fbr, i was gonna say you and everyone opposed to the movie should go see it. but if you cant bring yourself to support moore(i can understand), sneak in. now if youre not catlike, you can simply buy a ticket to another movie, and instead go into F 9-11. that way, you get to see it, and dont support it all at once! yay! lol.

seriously, im certianly not a leftist, but i still saw it. some parts i rolled my eyes at moore, others i rolled my eyes at bush.


Sandy thats a great idea!

FBR

JimLovesJazz
06-29-2004, 06:49 PM
Well I think theatres pay for the rights to show a movie before hand. Anyone know for sure on that ? Think of it like this FBR- you'd be supporting your local economy more than Moore himself

Madcap
06-29-2004, 06:56 PM
Nope, Theaters only get the cash from the consession stand. The ticket cash goes to the studio. MM has already got his cash.

sander8son
06-29-2004, 06:56 PM
the theatre pays a percentage or a set cut per ticket sold to the production house. so he'd be supporting the film he paid for.

by your argument jim, if that was the way it was, then everyone would be supporting moore by seeing shrek 2.

JimLovesJazz
06-29-2004, 07:00 PM
That's right you are in broadcasting aren't you Sandy. Thanks for answering my question.

sander8son
06-29-2004, 07:02 PM
no, im in sitting on my ass.

seraya
06-29-2004, 07:19 PM
big d, you're almost as extreme sounding as me. but i'm somehow more balanced in the head, which is scary. you need to look over your posts and re-think some of your logic.


LMAO sand... i was thinking the same thing

Big D i think your a lil lost luv :seesaw: lol


Edited to add*
To be honest i don't really get how some of you can argue against a film that you haven't even seen.

oh and btw does anybody know if they will be showing this film internationally.... i hope it makes it over here.

I think i'll keep my opinions to myself as far as the American goverment is concerned..... don't want to offend anybody. I'll say this though, If the bush cult, ahem i mean administration get re-elected, i will most definitly have to re-consider my move to the states next year. :-\

Seraya.

sander8son
06-29-2004, 07:30 PM
seraya. i personally think its important to hear the views of oneself(country or individual) from outsiders. YOU get a different point of view on everything and as such your opinions are more than welcome. clearly we citizens of the USA residing within its borders are all over each other. i dont think the opinion of one brit is gonna offend anyone who isn't already offended.

JimLovesJazz
06-29-2004, 07:54 PM
To be honest i don't really get how some of you can argue against a film that you haven't even seen.

oh and btw does anybody know if they will be showing this film internationally.... i hope it makes it over here.


I am in full agreement with you Seraya on the first part of the above quote. Also I'm sure it will make it your way eventually. It seems to me when I am in Europe that the movies are 6 months to 8 months behind the US release dates.

montythegeek
06-29-2004, 08:24 PM
IMO Michael Moore is a traitor who should be stood up against a wall and shot. Going to Europe and badmouthing the US is disgusting.

FBR, I have always had a lot of respect for you, but if you're going to shoot M. Moore, you need to shoot Rush Limbaugh and about ten thousand other people, at least, for doing the exact same thing to Clinton during his eight years in office.

He isn't bad-mouthing America, he is bad-mouthing the current President, who has inspired the greatest worldwide protests in history for invading Iraq, instead of mashing Al Queda like bugs in Afghanistan.


...a public figure whos mission is to fuck over his country any way he can and still profit from its largess.

Sounds like an accurate description of GWB, to me...

He went from being an extremely controversial President who barely scraped through the election process, winning by Electoral process rather than popular vote--to being the most lauded and glorified leader America has seen since FDR. Why?

Because a bunch of Saudi-led terrorists blew up part of NYC. What the hell did GWB do? What anyone would have, vilified the perpetrators and promised vengeance--except he used the bloodlust and sheeplike support of the masses of outraged Americans to provide backing for a war which side-tracked the pursuit of justice and settled the score his Daddy didn't quite finish. Since it was a rich Saudi who decided to blow up the WTC, why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia--after all they have oil, too?

Since when is Moore producing his own biased media presentation any worse than what Bush did to win support for his little war? Both used real footage, edited for effect. Both are getting rich as a result (and a whole lot of Bush pals, as well). One of them has brought about the deaths of several hundred Americans as a result of HIS lies, and it ain't Moore.



Djoser,
This is from David Brooks op-ed piece in the NY Times.

Like Hemingway, Moore does his boldest thinking while abroad. For example, it was during an interview with the British paper The Mirror that Moore unfurled what is perhaps the central insight of his oeuvre, that Americans are kind of crappy.

"They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet . . . in thrall to conniving, thieving smug [pieces of the human anatomy]," Moore intoned. "We Americans suffer from an enforced ignorance. We don't know about anything that's happening outside our country. Our stupidity is embarrassing."

It transpires that Europeans are quite excited to hear this supple description of the American mind. And Moore has been kind enough to crisscross the continent, speaking to packed lecture halls, explicating the general vapidity and crassness of his countrymen. "That's why we're smiling all the time," he told a rapturous throng in Munich. "You can see us coming down the street. You know, `Hey! Hi! How's it going?' We've got that big [expletive] grin on our face all the time because our brains aren't loaded down."


That quote sure sounds like bad-mouthing America in the most liberal paper-of-record in America.

JimLovesJazz
06-29-2004, 08:35 PM
Moore's description of Americans is on target to what many, many people outside the States think of Americans. I travel abroad almost monthly and can testify to that from personal experience.

We are regularly viewed as one of the world greediest and most ignorant nations on earth

A_Guy
06-30-2004, 07:22 AM
Ok, I saw this movie last night and thought I would include my comments. I won’t go into much detail, because I believe you should see it for yourself.

First, about me:
Did I vote for Bush in 2000 – No
Will I vote for Bush in 2004 – No
Did this movie change my opinion of Bush – No
My party affiliation – None. I considered one of those “swing” voters.

This was an extremely powerful documentary, with all other comments aside.

By all means, it was a slap in the face to the current administration, as expected. In terms of documentaries, I have never seen better. The set-up, the flow, the rhythm and presentation exemplifies Moore’s genius – whether you agree with him or not. I was worried that the movie would present our troops in a negative matter, in the same manner in which he portrayed Bush. Fortunately, this was far from the case.

There were more than a few moments where I had to cringe. The R rating is definitely fitting; I think Moore’s push to revise that status a PG-13 movie was simply a ploy to allow younger people into the movie (which is fine by me).

All in all, it was a great movie. I think everyone should see this movie; whether you pay to see it, sneak in, download it off the internet, whatever – it’s an excellent presentation and largely unrepresented (or underrepresented) viewpoint of the events surrounding 9/11, the Bush administration, and our government.

If you don’t agree with Moore – fine. Please don’t share your opinions on a movie which you have never seen. I “hate” Rush Limbaugh, but I listen to him everyday to try to be empathetic to other viewpoints. I recommend everyone try to do the same.

- AG

AinNY
06-30-2004, 10:33 AM
im lost

A_Guy
06-30-2004, 10:39 AM
So, I am lost and fucked up in the head for supporting my country? Right...I may be a little extreme in my beliefs about 911 however, I see that you all seem to have forgotten that day.
1. Consider the age gap between myself and most girls on this site.
I have much more life experience, education and years on you.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with supporting your (and my) country. However, you can support a country without supporting a war or president - this is not called treason, it's freewill, our right.



2. Most of you are "career" strippers and that is all that you do. I have a life outside of the club and am involved in activites that are life giving and rewarding. Things that most of you would probably not ever consider doing like: volunteering, politics, higher academia, history, veteran's activities, etc. THings that reinforce what it is like to be an American.


I'll let the ladies comment on this one



3. My parents are both retired Air Force. Two nephews in the Army - one went to Somalia the other left for war yesterday.


You should be proud of the courage of those you love. My brother in law will be leaving for Iraq in November, and it scares me to death. I can't imagine what my sister must be going through.



4. I would have enlisted last year however, they won't take alcoholics. THat is how firmly I believe in my country.


I don't support this war, and find it amazing people can still find the will to enlist. However, I respect your willingness and courage to stand up for what you believe.



Life can be so much easier if you don't fight it.


Unquestioning acceptance sounds somewhat of an Orwellian concept to me. To contradict that statement: like you said, stand up for what you believe.

SCGirl
06-30-2004, 10:40 AM
Moore's description of Americans is on target to what many, many people outside the States think of Americans. I travel abroad almost monthly and can testify to that from personal experience.


This is very true. I was in London when this whole thing turned from a hunt for Osama to a hunt for Sadam. We were all over there thinking, what the HELL are they doing?!?! The US media is EXTREMELY biased and they and the government DEFINITELY used fear as a major tactic for rallying the American public. In London, we students were getting frantic calls from home wondering if the study abroad program was going to be shut down because of the "danger to our lives as Americans." We all rolled our eyes and were like "where the HELL are you hearing this?! We're FINE! The only danger we're in is of an alcohol overload (yay for the lower drinking age!)!" In fact, when we started hearing all this, I wondered what was being said by American media, so I started looking things up. To my EXTREME surprise, I found my small hometown plastered on the front of a national website (MSN). "Binghamton NY Prepares for Disaster" it read. I almost fell out of my chair! It showed pictures of people cleaning out Wal-Mart, Home Depot, etc of food, water, wood, and other supplies. This is freakin' BING people!!!! Who the hell would attack BING?!?! I called home to my dad and he was like "yeah, the media's going crazy over here....apparently we're all going to die within the next 72 hours or something....it's silly really." At least he knew enough to read between the lines!

And (sorry for the long post on an already long thread) Big D--it's FINE to support our troops and our country. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Now, I admit, I only read the last two pages of this thread (I don't have time for all of it right now) so I really don't know what you guys have been arguing about. However, I just wanted to add....if anyone's seen the movie, remember the Military Mom as I like to call her (I think her name was Lila Limcomb or something like that)? She HATED protester and anyone who was against the war. Most of her family enlisted in the armed forces and fought overseas. She saw the protests as an attack on our country and our service people. But then she realized, once her son was sent over to Iraq, that they were NOT against our military, they were against the actions being taken that sent them over and put them in harms way. Also, once she found out that her first born son was killed in Iraq, she didn't see the point for the "war" at all. Where were the Weapons of Mass Destruction, she asked. You can't help but wonder about the monetary--and not to mention the PRIDE--aspect of the son of a former president (of desert storm fame) going to war with Iraq. I don't know of one single person who opposes the military. Well, that's not ture, I oppose the military for the economic structure it feeds upon and reinforces (which I knew about before the movie). But I never once would belittle or oppose the wonderful people who volunteer (or are economically forced into serving). They don't deserve to have to put their lives on the line for a war that WE started.

And lastly, I think everyone, opposed or not, should see the movie. I dragged my 18 year old sister to see it last night. She didn't want to go and wouldn't have seen it if it weren't for me. Afterwards, she was so thankful she saw it. She was enraged about all the things she never knew about (the Bin Ladins being flown out of the country, the money in oil and defense, the reaction of the soldiers over there, etc). She realized how uninformed she was. And even IF some of the things were bent out of proportion or whatever, at least it opened her eyes. Now she cares and can become involved and informed. She WANTS to learn about it now. Hopefully she'll become informed and will want to VOTE.

As I see it, nothing bad can come out of this movie.

Tigerlilly
06-30-2004, 10:54 AM
So, I am lost and fucked up in the head for supporting my country? Right...I may be a little extreme in my beliefs about 911 however, I see that you all seem to have forgotten that day.

NO -- not for supporting your country but as others have mentioned it's your kill them all and question nothing attitude that is messed up. And no one here has forgotten 9/11, that's really a ridiculous thing to say.



1. Consider the age gap between myself and most girls on this site. I have much more life experience, education and years on you.

You are not the only one here over 30, I myself am almost 30 and I know of several other female site member who are in their 30's as well and another one who is 40. You do not know what education level others may have so to say you are better educated than everyone else is -- well plain stupid. There are plenty of us here who have degrees.



2. Most of you are "career" strippers and that is all that you do. I have a life outside of the club and am involved in activities that are life giving and rewarding. Things that most of you would probably not ever consider doing like: volunteering, politics, higher academia, history, veteran's activities, etc. THings that reinforce what it is like to be an American.

You have no clue what we do outside of the clubs. Speaking for myself I have had a professional ballet career prior to working in clubs, I have been volunteering at Hospice and animal shelters for over 5 years. Plenty of site members have a life outside of the clubs. And for you to assume that they don't is well again plain stupid.



3. My parents are both retired Air Force. Two nephews in the Army - one went to Somalia the other left for war yesterday.


I also come from a large military family -- my father was a retired COL. US. Army with numerous medals including 3 Purple Hearts and he fought in two different wars and worked in The Pentagon. I have two uncles one a Navy OBGYN the other works for Army JAG and is in Turkey and is negotiating --he was in The Pentagon when it was hit. So don't you dare sit there and accuse me of forgetting 9/11.
I also have a couple of enlisted cousins, one who is in Iraq now and fought during Desert Storm as well. And guess what ALL of them are dissatisfied with the situation in Iraq and with the President save for my father who has passed away.



4. I would have enlisted last year however, they won't take alcoholics. THat is how firmly I believe in my country.


OK I'm not even going to touch that one as it would be cruel.



5. I am clear and steadfast about my beliefs. The problem with most people is that their beliefs are fucked up and that is why their lives are as such.
Life can be so much easier if you don't fight it.


and I'll leave that one alone as well for the same reason.

AinNY
06-30-2004, 11:28 AM
What does forgetting what happened on 9/11 have to do with anything?

I woke up on 9/11 to my gf at the time calling me from an airport in Oklahoma telling me what happened and to turn on the TV. Her flight was emergency landed. Not only could that have easily been her flight that hit the towers as she flew out of Newark.....but she & her family were originally scheduled to be on one of the two flights that hit the Towers(luckily they changed flights at the last minute).

I worked at the World Trade Center site during the "Clean-up & Recovery". I was there when they were still pulling bodies out. I worked there for over a year and during rebuilding of the PATH train station. EVERYDAY for more than a year I had to see thousands of people crying at the fences surrounding the site.

My good friend lost his father, a fire cheif, in tower 1.

I will NEVER forget a second of 9/11 or a second of what I saw for year after that. Living in NY alone its almost impossible to forget any of it.

I have nothing more to say about that.

I am still against this fabricated war and everythign else this moron bush has done in office to this date.

Most of what you said Big D is extremely ignorant....

On the other hand, Great post TigerLilly :great: