View Full Version : Are you a feminist?
AmericanDreams
03-12-2005, 12:32 PM
My thinking on the subject is similar in alot of ways to what Rhia has written. I don't think either gender is better than the other nor do I think either gender deserves more rights that the other.
There are differences between men and women ofcourse but those difference balance out over all IMHO. Men are weaker and stronger in some ares of life than women and vice verses.
To me - a feminist is simply just a term used to describe a person standing up against gender discrimination.
tearstearstears
03-12-2005, 12:37 PM
Of course i am a feminist. As a woman, it would be stupid not to be. And i am proud to call myself a feminist. I dont care about lame connotations attached to the word.
I agree with what was said before that men and woman are biologically different (haha duh). And i think that no one should be denied to work somewhere because of their gender. But they are, still and women, all over the world, are paid less than their male counterparts. I think workplaces need to be more woman-friendly. In Australia childcare is very expensive and we dont get paid maternity leave. Since women are the only sex that can have children, i feel that workplaces need to meet the needs of these women (as in our country we're in desperate need of people having children due to our declining birth rate) and accommodate them to an extent so that they have the choice to either quit their jobs and be stay at home mums or to be working mums if they wish. Having this choice would affect men for the better too, it would mean that there would be more flexibility for them to enjoy the parenting role too without being punished financially.
Thats just one example of what i believe as a feminist.
SupportiveBF
03-12-2005, 10:15 PM
Ooo! Ooo! Bons-bons!
tearstearstears
03-12-2005, 10:38 PM
I consider myself a "people's libber".
I fully believe that if you make a baby you have a responsiblity to be there for that child. Father's have no right to walk away from their children.
Whats the point in being a people's libber when it's women who have been disadvantaged through having little to no choice all throughout history (up until the women's rights movement) and men who have pretty much ruled society since ... forever!
Women and men are still unequal. The struggle is not over by a long shot. Especially in terms of pay.
Fathers do have a right to walk away from their children just like women have the right to have abortions (actually, this right for women is now under threat, unfortunately). A father may not want a child and therefore he chooses not to be a father by walking away and when a woman does not want a child she chooses to abort it.
Feminism to me is all about having choices. I want to be able to do what i wish, whether that be being a stripper or a stay at home mum or a corporate lawyer. And now we do have a choice, just like men always had a choice to do what they wanted to do.
SupportiveBF
03-13-2005, 02:08 AM
I agree fathers have no right to walk away from their children, but be careful about making this a one sided issue. Women have the "right" to take children away from a father and move them across the country so the father ends up having to pay his child support and another grand a month to fly out just to see his kids every four weeks. This is very much a problem in our society and a situation where men are in a sickeningly helpless position to do anything about. Not that I know anyone this has happened to, of course :)
fancygirl
03-13-2005, 03:02 AM
Equal Rights = Equal Responsibilities.
Right now it seems a lot of feminists want the Equal Rights portion, but when asked "Did you sign up for the draft?" or the like, the whole Equal Responsibiliities side went out the door.
I wouldn't mind signing up for the draft. I don't think there should be one because it works too much in favor of the white middle and upper classes. But, I think everyone is born at an equal level and has to prove themselves from there.
Also, I believe that while there are biological differences, these are becoming less polarized than previously were.
And, a little Sunny Collin's wisdom for ya'all:
"I'm a feminist. I just believe a good push-up bra has done more for me than Congress has."
SupportiveBF
03-13-2005, 03:49 AM
"I'm a feminist. I just believe a good push-up bra has done more for me than Congress has."[/QUOTE]
and therein lies the eternal difference between men and women that no bill will ever make equal...
princessjefflina
03-14-2005, 05:55 PM
im an anti gender as a definerist
amen on that pushup bra quote
:(
bambiblue
03-14-2005, 09:23 PM
When I think of equal rights my mind goes back to a social psych class I took my freshman year of college. I learned that a women with a masters degree is likely to make less than a man with a h.s education. That a women with as much experience and education will make an average of 27% less than a man will doing the same damn thing. I am not talking about laborers or physically demanding jobs, but doctos, psychologists, management, ect. I think this world is far from losing its prejudices. All you have to do is turn on a tv and watch how women are portrayed as symbols of sexism. I am all for equal rights.... once it means equal pay.
Casual Observer
03-14-2005, 09:48 PM
^ Might want to get current on your stats. (http://www.ncpa.org/pd/economy/econ7.html)
And perhaps a refund on your social psych credits.
:)
AmericanDreams
03-14-2005, 10:00 PM
I think this world is far from losing its prejudices.
I think you are correct about there still being plenty of prejudices in the world today. Gender issues being just one of the many. You can see them just about everywhere including on this website.
princessjefflina
03-15-2005, 02:54 AM
i think the problem isnt ncesarily the discrimination based on gender
but the precursor like with racism
the belief that it accounts for major difference in character
aside from social conditioning/how youre treated/raised and learn to act/react accordingly
and not hormones(physical still)
or stupid trivial shit like genetic predispositions to being generally better at math
or whatever or being more succeptible to whatever disease
cos thats always the case
why cant we just be ourselves first
then whatever sex
and i think its by design as well
or if not definately exploited for just another divisionary diversion
define and divide
and divide and conquer
tearstearstears
03-15-2005, 03:45 AM
Individual workplace contracts mean a woman doing the same job as a man can earn less in the same position at the same job.
Happens every day in well paying jobs such as in corporations and firms. It's all up to the employer.
tearstearstears
03-16-2005, 08:00 AM
Tears, for those who care to view the system with an open mind and without prejudging it based on stereotypes, one can see inequaties on both sides of the equation.
For instance, while women still make $.79 on a dollar on average in this country a man still can't, very easily, go into court and file for custody of his children. A woman has an unequal esteem in the court's eyes vis-a-vis parenting in this country. And while we are on the subject, while it is wrong that women make $.79 cents on that dollar many states family courts still treat desolving marriages as if she made $.00 on a dollar when awarding final judgements on divorce decrees.
We dont have allimony (sp?) or the equivilant here in Australia so i cant really make a comment on that but i will say that there is a good reason why mothers, more often than not, are awarded custody of the children than fathers - especially when the children are young. Thats because more often than not women stay home and raise the children while the man goes out and earns a living full time. A lot of men arent prepared to give up their jobs to stay home and raise the kids and give up their lives where as women, generally speaking, have had to do so. If men were more prepared to do so and stopped linking their identity to their jobs then maybe this stereotype would start to disappear and the family court would look upon new cases differently. But since women get paid less than men wouldnt this also mean that they would pay less child support and have less to live on themselves? There are other reasons why the family court likes to award custody to the mother, not just financial reasons. Generally speaking, mothers are good at mothering and although there are a lot of great guys out there that are fathers, sometimes it doesnt come all that naturally to them. Lets face it, there are still a lot of guys out there who cant even do basic things like cook and clean properly.
Now if anyone's to blame for all the great fathers out there who are denied custody and only get to see their kids every second weekend it's not the mothers, it's not the courts, it's all the deadbeat dads out there who should never have been fathers in the first place that make it hard for the guys who want to do the right thing and who are doing the right thing. The peice of shit dads who flee and never pay a cent of child support, never see their children, never call, never write, never show any inclination of fathering and leave everything up to the mother. And lets face it, there are more of these deadbeats than there are decent dads.
The family court always tries to do what is best for the children in a custody battle, not the parents. So if the father or mother or whoever doesnt like it then tough luck. Of course sometimes they do get it wrong and stuff up majorly, but generally they do a good job.
bambiblue
03-16-2005, 08:26 AM
^ Might want to get current on your stats. (http://www.ncpa.org/pd/economy/econ7.html)
And perhaps a refund on your social psych credits.
:)
UmmMM.....look at your own statistics..... read them VERY carefully and then tell me I'm right. Women make a substantial amount LESS than a man in the same given field doing the same given job.
BigGreenMnM
03-16-2005, 08:35 AM
Feminazi[/b]
This term was made popular by the radio/tv host Rush Limbaugh. A feminazi is defined by anti-feminists as a feminist who is trying to produce as many abortions as possible. Hence the term "nazi." Limbuah sees feminists as trying to rid the world of a particular group of people (fetuses).
> Pop-Feminism
Pop-feminism is often mistaken by people to be feminism in general... the negative stereotypical man hating ideology. There is no proof that such feminists exist, I have yet to meet a feminist who hates men and indeed, many men are feminists. But, if such a category of feminists exist, they should be referred to as 'pop-feminists.' This would be the type of feminism that degrades men in all manners and glorifies women.
Other branches:
> Amazon Feminism
> Cultural Feminism
> Ecofeminism
> Individualist, or Libertarian Feminism
> Material Feminism
> Moderate Feminism
> N.O.W. Feminism (also referred to as Gender Feminism)
> Radical Feminism
> Separatists
You forgot FEMMIPENNI's
Or the"PW" lobby group as the slang term.
Thats the fringe group of men who support "equal"for females,regardless of what it is.
BigGreenMnM
03-16-2005, 08:42 AM
Ah.. Ok.. I was also wondering what Bon Bons were.. But, I looked it up.. LOL
Are you freeeeeeekin kidding me!!!!!!!!!
Your never had a bon bon????
I thought in gradeschool when they seperated the boys and the girls for that "private"part class in sex ed,Bon Bon's were one of the things they told ya about??
Its femmi heroin!!!!
Pure crack for the cracked!!!
No fret perkaset!!
It cures all that ails ya!!!!
I insist you go to the store and get a box!!!!
Its legal!!!!!
BigGreenMnM
03-16-2005, 09:03 AM
As for my take on the "equal"thingy.
There aint no equal.
Females are the weaker sex,thats just nature.
"Mother" nature i might add,so its a womans fault to begin with.;)
anyways....
I think the social structure of the human animal resembles the wolf pack in that we have alpha/beta males and alpha/beta females.
I dont think anyone is equal as a human animal.
I disagree with alot of feminazi agenda because i think they are reaching for unresonable hights while protecting unreasonable lows.
I was brought up old school where a woman is to be loved,honored,respected,AND protected.
i want my girls to be doctors,lawyers,bankers,etc,but i dont want them on front line combat.
There is no equal,to say otherwise is just being PC,i use the world and history as my evidence.
BigGreenMnM
03-16-2005, 09:09 AM
As for "equal"pay....
again,a womans fault!!!!
Her name was Rosie,silverback posted her pic in this thread.
Her and her kind have caused many social conditions over the last 50 years,most of them not good.
And now you want equal pay??
I say equal pay for an equal days work is whats right.
If the conditions of employment are altered from one sex to the other,then so should the pay scale be altered.
Wouldnt that be more equal??
Casual Observer
03-16-2005, 09:40 AM
UmmMM.....look at your own statistics..... read them VERY carefully and then tell me I'm right. Women make a substantial amount LESS than a man in the same given field doing the same given job.
You're not right, which you'd see if you read the pieces:
Feminist activists are coming up with formulas which supposedly show that the wage gap between women and men is still large. But experts point out that when relevant factors are considered, the degree of difference is quite small -- and the gap is narrowing, not getting larger.
* In 1999, the U.S. Department of Labor reported that women's average hourly wages were 84 percent of men's -- up from 82 percent in 1998.
* Statisticians say hourly wages are a better means of comparison than salaries, because women work fewer hours than men.
* While women earn well over half of all BA and MA degrees awarded, half of medical degrees and 40 percent of law and business degrees, they still frequently choose specialties that pay less.
* Fewer major in math and computers, and more major in history and education.
Time in the work force also affects average wages. The year 1978 marked the first time that more than half of U.S. women were in the work force. So fewer women than men have the experience to command higher salaries.
A number of independent studies have compared the earnings of equally qualified men and women. The differences turned out to be a few pennies on the dollar.
Source: Diana Furchtgott-Roth (American Enterprise Institute), "Equal or Equivalent? Feminist Activists Ignore the Data About Women's Pay," Investor's Business Daily, May 11, 2000. emphasis mine
It's a myth.
bambiblue
03-16-2005, 06:05 PM
You're not right, which you'd see if you read the pieces:
It's a myth.
Ok So we are still making 16 cents less on the dollar than a man for doing the same job. It's not a myth, it's a way of life. But coming from a man I wouldn't expect a more intelligent answer because you yourself have never had to deal with it.
BTW your statistics are outdated it's 2005 not 1999, and yes, we are still making less to do the same job. You failed to leave those out of your little hypothesis. If I knew how to cut and paste the statistics onto this site I would, but it wouldn't change your mind anyway. Peace.
BigGreenMnM
03-16-2005, 07:36 PM
Now if anyone's to blame for all the great fathers out there who are denied custody and only get to see their kids every second weekend it's not the mothers, it's not the courts, it's all the deadbeat dads out there who should never have been fathers in the first place that make it hard for the guys who want to do the right thing and who are doing the right thing. The peice of shit dads who flee and never pay a cent of child support, never see their children, never call, never write, never show any inclination of fathering and leave everything up to the mother. And lets face it, there are more of these deadbeats than there are decent dads.
Are you freekin kidding me?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
This is sooooooooooooo wrong imo and im sorry such a freekin hottie has such a low opinion on men in general.
Most men,to include the brothers and fathers of the freekin girls reading this are NOT deadbeat dads!!!
Thats like saying most females are sluts because they spread thier legs for the deadbeat dads!!!
Its just not true.
The deadbeat dads get all the press while the real dads are busy knockin down the electric bill and rent payments and tucking thier kids into bed at night.
Im not sure how it is down under,but when you walk into a custodey battle here in the states,you lose most of your points and "rights" due to the fact you have a penis.No other reason.
I would never excuse the deadbeat dads,but i can understand why most cant or wont pay the "extorsion money"just to see thier kids every other weekend.
Exactly how much impact on a child would the females have 4 days a month??????????????????????????????????????
A child needs more from thier fasthers then just financial support but thats all a man is regulated to after a divorce.
The fault lies with the single mothers who spread thier legs as much as it does the fathers who run after they have no choices or rights to any children born.
Give men the same "choice"and rights to their children,born and unborn as females have,and maybe the word deadbeat dad would become obsolete and many single mothers wouldnt find themselves in the situation they created.
tearstearstears
03-16-2005, 09:10 PM
I say equal pay for an equal days work is whats right.
If the conditions of employment are altered from one sex to the other,then so should the pay scale be altered.
Wouldnt that be more equal??
Like i said in a previous post, one of the main factors affecting equal pay is individual workplace contracts. A man and woman at the same firm can do the same job, have the same position, work the same amount of hours but what makes the woman earn less is the workplace contract she signed with her employer. And she probably wouldnt know that she's earning less than her male counterpart because these contracts are confidential. It's not like people would stand around the water cooler discussing them.
tearstearstears
03-16-2005, 09:17 PM
True enough, at the moment. And I keep forgetting you are down under and the situation may not be the same there.
For instance, as women keep getting closer and closer to men in equality [and its a slow but steady pace at work here] they are getting more and more like men. More heart attacks, ulcers, and... you guessed it, a rise in 'dead beat moms'. It hasn't reached epidemic proportions yet but it is a phenom well worth taking note of. More and more mom's are ditching the kids, walking out, and leaving them with dad. Now its the mom's we have to keep an eye on when leaving to go around the corner for a pack of cigerettes.
Yeah, i tend to agree with this. But i also think that a mother and her children have a very special bond (that being she physically gave birth to them) and so it would be hard for the mother to see her children have to live with the father full time and hard for the children too. Of course fathers have a special bond with their children also and although i think the bond is equal i think it's different. Like when a child hurts itself or something they generally cry for their mother. But i mean obviously i'm only generalizing and every family is different.
tearstearstears
03-16-2005, 09:31 PM
I would never excuse the deadbeat dads,but i can understand why most cant or wont pay the "extorsion money"just to see thier kids every other weekend.
Exactly how much impact on a child would the females have 4 days a month??????????????????????????????????????
A child needs more from thier fasthers then just financial support but thats all a man is regulated to after a divorce.
The fault lies with the single mothers who spread thier legs as much as it does the fathers who run after they have no choices or rights to any children born.
Give men the same "choice"and rights to their children,born and unborn as females have,and maybe the word deadbeat dad would become obsolete and many single mothers wouldnt find themselves in the situation they created.
Thats the thing though, child support isnt "extortion money" just so they can see their kids every second weekend. It's money to support their children the same way they had have done had the divorce or break up not happened to begin with.
Of course a child needs more than just financial support but supporting their child/ren financially is a great place to start if the man in question wants to prove that he's a good father and not a deadbeat.
And you cant solely blame a woman for the "situation they created". A man has the choice to sleep with her and he also has the choice whether to use protection or not.
Quite frankly, and this is my own opinion here, if a man cant even pay child support (when he has the means to) he should not have the right to see his children. (Same if the sexes are reversed and it's the mum not paying child support).
In my case my father even quit his job so he didnt have to pay child support for me. I missed out on so many things during my childhood because of this. And then in my teens he blamed my "whore mother" for not letting him see me. Which is not true, i didnt want to see him. I was afraid of him because he was abusive and couldnt be trusted alone with me.
I guess i havent had that much experience with decent dads (but i know they are out there somewhere). You only have to read Katrine's "How I Feel About My Father" thread to realize that my situation is not an isolated one and that there are a ton of deadbeat fathers out there.
LilSweetVixen
03-17-2005, 08:35 AM
I'm a feminist. There are about 20 branches of feminism. I'm in the sexually liberated branch of feminism.
"Pornography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography), exhibitionism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhibitionism), and prostitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution) are all acceptable to sexually-liberal feminists so long as certain standards are maintained. These standards include the health (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health) and safety (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety) of participants; as well as consent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent) and respect existing between participants".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_positive_feminism
But I don't like the term "sex-positive" because it sounds like condoning sex rather than just condoning the choice to have or not have sex.
Yes men and women are different. But my sister and I are also different. We aren't the same biologically, socially, psychologically, etc. She's a type B personality who would never do something like stripping. I feel each person is different and should have the full range of choices available to them, rather than being judged strictly along gender lines.
BigGreenMnM
03-17-2005, 07:04 PM
way to go Thorn,much props.For you and your wife,and also to your son.
I only wish more females in this industry met the men like this(except for the cop an extra part),who subscribe to these family values,i dont think they do for the most part.
I think this is closer to the majority of men in this country,not the deadbeat dads.
If there were more dead beat dads then real men,a guy wouldnt be able to get laid,i dont care how purty he was.The females of this country would treat us all like we had a rash on our nose or something!
tearstearstears
03-18-2005, 06:07 PM
He agreed to pay all her bills, 100% of her upkeep while she was pregnant and there after till she was back on her feet. The rent, food, medical, everything. She had the child and he took full custody of my grandson right at the hospital and has been mother and father to hiim. [BTW, the mother.... gone. Not a penny in support, not a toy at Christmas, not so much as a birthday card and hasn't seen her own child since he was six months old, even though my son made it clear he would make arrangements for her to know her child if she wanted.] He has been raised well by my son, with a little support from Grandma and Grandpa, and is the greatest kid you'd ever want to meet.
Grandpa might get a lap dance now and then [and I'll cop to the occasional extra] but the men in the Thorn family don't walk away from their kids.
But she was going to abort it anyway so it's clear she didnt want it, didnt want to raise it. The only reason she did was because he said he'd take care of it. Now this child has to grow up without a mother all because he selfishly (i dont mean that in a mean way) wanted it. You cant blame her. She did him the favour by having it.
Ideally she should have had an abortion and he could have gotten another woman pregnant who actually wanted the child.
So really, it was more like an adoption.
Thats how i see it, objectively speaking.
princessjefflina
03-18-2005, 09:49 PM
Ahem
I Win
Haha
bambiblue
03-18-2005, 10:44 PM
Here is a link that is UP TO DATE if you follow it through you will see that the us concensus says that women earn 76 cents to every dollar!!!!!! not 13 and no it's not a myth!!!! The name of this thread should be..are you a sexist??? not,, are u a feminist?
C.O. next time you want to insult my inteligence make sure you know what the hell you're talking about.
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/censusandstatistics/a/paygapgrows.htm
princessjefflina
03-19-2005, 01:53 AM
i still win!
right?