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Lilith
11-17-2003, 08:56 AM
Moved from another thread



But if I were a regular customer of yours over a long period of time I would expect you to eventlually become a little more trusting toward me. Otherwise I would feel like you were penalizing me for being a good customer. And I'd find that very frustrating.

I am especially wary of anyone who claims that I owe them my free time outside of the club. Being a steadfast regular almost universally means that you are entitled to special treatment, special dances, the monopolizing of our entire night when you are spending the appropriate amount of money, occasional gifts and freebies. It does not mean that you are entitled to our personal life outside of work. My regulars buy my dances and my attention; my life is not for sale.

This does not mean you are prevented from seeking an ATF who will offer such things. I won't hold it against any dancer, conversely, if this is how she decides to reward a steadfast, lucrative regular. But it would take a very special customer indeed for me to offer up my private life in exchange for a business relationship. This is no slur against my customers. I merely place a very high monetary value on my safety.

This brings up an interesting line of thought. I've often times related my profession to that of a geisha. The real money in a geisha world is in having a regular outside of the club, referred to as a danna. It is a business relationship, with a contract and specific clauses determining what special rights are bestowed in exchange for a set income and clearly outlines the relationship's time frame. That is a fascinating question, as a dancer... would I accept having a danna? I think, under the correct circumstances, that I would.

Fascinating line of thought, that. How many dancers would want a danna? How many customers would be a danna?

electric_head
11-17-2003, 09:30 AM
I dont think I'd like it. Mixing business and pleasure just seems to wierd. And what about the fly by the seat of your pants thing.

doc-catfish
11-17-2003, 09:32 AM
Note: I made this same reply to the same thread on Stripperweb. Thanks to Lilith for wanting our input as well.



Fascinating line of thought, that. How many dancers would want a danna? How many customers would be a danna?
I suppose the American equivalent to this would be a "sugar daddy" relationship. While they can be lucrative to a dancer, there are serious safety and legal concerns regarding them. Anyone remember the brew-ha-ha we got into over this thread (http://www.stripperweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=general_general;action=display;num=1 051298674;start=0)? Regardless of what stipulations there are in any contract, eventually the customer will begin to assume or insist that the dancer loves him and thinks that this "relationship" is personal, while the dancer still thinks that it is business. Usually thats the beginning of the end. I've seen more than a few girls dance only for the purpose of baiting some guy to sugar daddy them outside the club, with ill regard to her personal safety, and frankly I find that incredibly saddening.

Maybe its just me, but I go to a strip club to be entertained. If I spend the majority of my clams on a particular gal, its because I like the way she pushes my buttons, not because I think that if I spend "x" amount of money on her, that she'll really start to like me.

"Trust" to me means that she'll come over to my table and see me because she knows that I'm good for at least $100 and won't ask for the money up front because she knows that I won't screw her over when we're finished. I do NOT insist that she disclose details about her personal life, and in a few cases, I really don't want to know them (i.e. sob stories about her recent divorce, BF in jail, or credit problems, etc).

Some gals make wonderful ATF's. But thats about it. I don't need a good business relationship ruined by tangling it up with some outside club drama that I don't have the time nor patience for.

Lilith
11-17-2003, 09:34 AM
Mixing business and pleasure just seems to wierd.

You already do this every time you visit a strip club. An ATF is quite similar, though far more informal (ie; lacking the business guarantees).

Lilith
11-17-2003, 09:43 AM
Whoooo-iee. We all posted at the same time.

Dr. Catfish makes excellent points. We already seem to have this Americanized version, though lacking utterly in the professionalism the Japanese employ. From what I understand, DrC, it is quite akin to having/being a sugar daddy, though more refined. The real question perhaps would be, can Americans handle this sort of thing?

electric_head
11-17-2003, 09:44 AM
But there is no contract. I can pick another dancer with out her saying yeah or nay(at least out loud:) No time comitment either, when the money runs out so do I.

electric_head
11-17-2003, 10:20 AM
But that might be where the saying "It's been a business doing pleasure with you" comes from.

FBR
11-17-2003, 10:56 AM
Mixing business and pleasure just seems to wierd.

I guess thats where Im different from many of the guys here. To me, its all about mixing business with pleasure. Im not interested in going from dancer to dancer trying to see who gives the best mileage or whatever. I like to settle into a comfort zone where I have several select ladies whom I enjoy and can expect respectful treatment and good value for the money I spend. I cant tell you how many times Ive been told that I hang out with the best women. Not necessarily the hottest in the traditional sense but ladies that are intellegent, good looking, appreciative and dont do drugs. The quantity may ebb and flow, but never the quality.

Would I want a geisha relationship? You betcha. Thats what I have been looking for to be honest. It seems like a win-win to me. Im married and own a successful business. Im not willing to give up either which requires a special kind of woman who can live her own life and at the same time enjoy the benefits I can provide. I thought I had that type of relationship with my ex ATF but we both lost control of the situation and it went south. Fast forward two years...my fav and I seemed to be heading that way but weve hit a roadblock. I havent given up but am taking a very low key approach right now. Perhaps I am reaching for the unatainable I dont know.

Lilith, your honesty is very refreshing. Just admitting that you would consider a relationship of that nature could get you ostracized from the pink site so be careful LOL When someone says they wouldnt do it for any amount of money, I look upon that with great cynicism.

FBR

Lilith
11-17-2003, 12:08 PM
Thank you, FBR. I had to be totally honest with the thought that, if the right sort of customer offered me the right business relationship for an appropriate sum, that the businesswoman in me would seriously consider such an offer. Frankly, I think anyone would do the same.

However, I might not be referring to the same sort of relationship that a true Japanese danna would enjoy. The sort of sums and special rights I am thinking of would not involve sex; that is something I just don't think I would be comfortable with. But, a modified version seems to make perfect sense.

For example. Let's say you have a monthly SC budget of $500 and discriminating tastes. You see just the right lady for you, and can foresee a desire for exclusivity for a period of at least a few weeks. You could take that sum and that desire and make a contract with the club and lady in question. Say... for a period of two months, you agree to pay $600 per month for a guarantee of four hours of her club time, every other Tuesday. During this time, she is all yours and you are entitled to at least one dance for every fifteen minutes from the hours of 7:30 PM to 11:30 PM.

Benefits for the customer:
The same amount of dances purchased at cost in my club would total $960 plus a tip. You guaranteed her presence (and this would be a noticable pleasure to any man who shows up and sees that his fave lady is not at work) and you save at least $720 over two months' time. A certainty on your lady of choice, and at about a 40% discount. Not half bad, in my opinion.

Benefits for the dancer:
She is guaranteed that income, less a club percentage (I can readily see a mere 10% being the norm). She is earning $75 an hour without having to hustle. It also leaves the better earning hours free, during which she can still hustle like normal.

Like you said, win-win situation. I can think of all sorts of ways to further modify this little scenario, with different sums and different customer priviledges offered. Perhaps a four hour gurantee plus breakfast after work? Hey, a restaurant is a public place, it seems like a pleasant thing to offer without being too dangerous (and she can always use a bit of that guaranteed income to tip a bouncer to follow her). A once-monthly accompaniment on a business trip? I've taken business trips; they suck. An engaging, lovely lady for a travelling companion might appeal to many successful businessmen. The options are endless and don't have to descend to the level of a kept woman waiting in an apartment to be screwed twice a week in exchange for the rent money.

lestat1
11-17-2003, 12:23 PM
I'm not interested in being a sugar-daddy or danna. But then it's easy for me to say, since I haven't yet had the "ATF experience" of a dancer who made me feel special, or even improved my mood all that much. I think if I did become a regular with an ATF, I might be more interested in making an out-of-the-club arrangement if it were financially beneficial to both of us.

-lestat1

FBR
11-17-2003, 12:40 PM
Lilith, I respect your opinion and values. But since we're being honest here I was thinking more than just some guaranteed club time. I can get that with a phone call or two. My club isnt super busy like some are and Im considered a desirable customer. Just tonight I received a call from Miss B..apparently the ladies took a vote and talked her into calling me asking me to come in :P. I was very flattered but unfortunately I had some work stuff I had to get done. Point being that club time is a given and I want more.

To expound on my fantasy, I want club time but also some contact outside the club. Dinners...maybe a little clubbing..strip or otherwise...and to say the naughty word...sex. I realize that 99% of the gals wouldnt go for that but I keep seeking that illusive 1%. Ive thought Ive had it a couple times but...

Hope your not offended by my honesty...Im just trying to nudge my fantasy into the realm of reality ;D

FBR

Lilith
11-17-2003, 01:12 PM
Honesty isn't going to offend me (usually). But if we're talking about one customer's wants versus another... well, I don't think most guys have your drawing power, FBR. The normal guy would probably enjoy a guarantee, which you get as a matter of course (from having a reputation earned by spending, which not everyone can afford to do).

Something for everyone is what I'm thinking. Guys on a limited budget move on te lower end of the scale. Obviously a guy with a monthly SC budg of $500 won't be able to afford monthly accompanied business trips. The business trip guy may not require company in town. You, on the other hand, would probably enjoy some contracted outside time (though I agree that you'll have an extremely difficult time finding someone to agree to sex-on-contract). But you could easily have your ladies at dinner, or throw a party for your friends and contract the company of your harem.

As I said, endless possibilities (excluding sex, for most women).

mr_punk
11-17-2003, 01:48 PM
I suppose the American equivalent to this would be a "sugar daddy" relationship.

i don't think sugar daddy relationships are that formal from the beginning. i think the american equivalent would be what they used to call a courtesan. usually, a high-priced escort (relatively speaking) who has a customer willing to pay for an exclusive relationship. the guy mostly pays for unlimited access, among other things. i believe, the rule of thumb is 75-80% of what she would earn in a good month. how much would this cost? it varies, but a woman once quoted me a sum in excess of 275,000/yr about 5 or years so ago.


How many customers would be a danna?

short term, it's not a problem for me. otherwise, no thank you. it's too much of a limiting/long term commitment for my tastes. the last thing, i need is to hear is the sound of nagging in stereophonic surround sound. :)


The options are endless and don't have to descend to the level of a kept woman waiting in an apartment to be screwed twice a week in exchange for the rent money.

that sounds like something out of a tv movie of the week. :) it usually doesn't descend to that level. if she's the type, i'm talking about. odds are she's out shopping while he's stuck in that business meeting. don't get me wrong, they are very good at what they do. which is looking good and accommodating your desires, etc, and if you find that acceptable, then it can be an ideal situation, but if you're looking for something "deeper" stick to civilians.

fishnet
11-17-2003, 02:52 PM
I'm with FBR on this one! I'd be a danna but only in the traditional sense.

My favs always accomodate me...but my budget is substantially larger than you suggest. I routinely buy out their shifts and I can afford to have them dance every song if I so desire. One dance every 15 minutes would put me to sleep. LOL. Like FBR, I get all the club time I want. They are already "my girl" from the time I walk in till the time I leave. No need for a contract for that. Too, I already negotiate my own "price breaks" and management isn't involved and never gets a cut. She does have to tip out. That is par for SCs though.

Richard_Head
11-17-2003, 03:27 PM
Interesting, the differences among us.

I talk to intelligent, engaging women (and men) every day. I don't need to go to a club for that, although I appreciate the company of intelligent women in a club, too.

I prefer to talk to a dancer I already know, but it's also fun to meet someone new. I have favorites or preferences, but I'm not a completely "faithful" customer, because that particular piece of baggage would reduce my fun.

I enjoy them flirting with me at the stage, and I enjoy the closeness of a nicely done lap dance or five. I enjoy their company at the table, too, but not enough to pay for it (for the reasons I mentioned before). If I suspect I'm inhibiting their earning abilities, I'll encourage them to go elsewhere, favorites or not.

And when I leave the club, it's on my own terms, and I'm happy. I don't know when I'll be back. I'm not taking anyone's problems with me. I'm not worried about meeting expectations or avoiding disappointments. I had fun, and I expect when I return, I'll have fun again - if not, there's other times.

There's parts of my life that are complicated. A big part of my enjoyment of the strip club experience is leaving complications behind.
Damn that sounds like me.

Happy_Camper
11-17-2003, 04:22 PM
Point being that club time is a given and I want more.

... I want club time but also some contact outside the club. Dinners...maybe a little clubbing..strip or otherwise...


I am with FBR on this. I have thier time first and as long as I want while I am there (I actually piss some customers off by keeping my ATF busy, guess she is someone elses ATF also). My point is I already have this. I consider several of the ladies friends and find nothing wrong with wanting to carry on a decent conversation outside the distractions of the club. It is only dinner, I dont expect anything else, and i think they know that. If anything were to ever happen, great, but that is not my intention.
At the same time, if I am treated as 'just a customer' that is not what I want either and will just move on.

sol_de_pr2
11-18-2003, 01:41 PM
Nope, not me. I'll gladly leave dancers in the club, where they belong (from a customer's standpoint, of course). No sugar daddy or danna for me. Doesn't mean that I'm not open to an actual friendship with someone who happens to be a dancer, but I wouldn't subsidize her lifestyle even if I had the means.

LapOfLuxury
11-18-2003, 02:04 PM
I have thier time first and as long as I want while I am there (I actually piss some customers off by keeping my ATF busy, guess she is someone elses ATF also).


What would happen if one night she chose to service another customer ahead of you, and YOU were the one who had to wait?

Happy_Camper
11-18-2003, 02:11 PM
What would happen if one night she chose to service another customer ahead of you, and YOU were the one who had to wait?


I wouldn't wait. She knows that.

sadbuttrue
11-18-2003, 02:13 PM
However, I might not be referring to the same sort of relationship that a true Japanese danna would enjoy. The sort of sums and special rights I am thinking of would not involve sex; that is something I just don't think I would be comfortable with. But, a modified version seems to make perfect sense.

For example. Let's say you have a monthly SC budget of $500 and discriminating tastes. You see just the right lady for you, and can foresee a desire for exclusivity for a period of at least a few weeks. You could take that sum and that desire and make a contract with the club and lady in question. Say... for a period of two months, you agree to pay $600 per month for a guarantee of four hours of her club time, every other Tuesday. During this time, she is all yours and you are entitled to at least one dance for every fifteen minutes from the hours of 7:30 PM to 11:30 PM.

Benefits for the customer:
The same amount of dances purchased at cost in my club would total $960 plus a tip. You guaranteed her presence (and this would be a noticable pleasure to any man who shows up and sees that his fave lady is not at work) and you save at least $720 over two months' time. A certainty on your lady of choice, and at about a 40% discount. Not half bad, in my opinion.

Benefits for the dancer:
She is guaranteed that income, less a club percentage (I can readily see a mere 10% being the norm). She is earning $75 an hour without having to hustle. It also leaves the better earning hours free, during which she can still hustle like normal.



Geez, Lilith. That's pretty much what my SC experience has changed to in the last year, except in a sense it is double: I require only two hours of her time every two weeks for $600 + dinner + drinks and really not that many dances.

What are you doing for breakfast? ;)

J/K. I love this ATF, she's really sweet. I've got no complaints, we negotiated it together.

>>>Sad<<<
:D

Naomi_Tx
11-20-2003, 07:36 AM
Several years ago I developed a bit of an obsession with reading any and everything I could about geisha. I'm still fascinated by not only the traditional old world geisha, but modern geisha as well. Now, I don't presume to be an expert on the matter; but I do feel that some technical clarification, with regard to the geisha/ danna relationship, in needed here. Then one can decide whether they'd take on a danna.

Traditionally, a geisha would only have one or two danna (not at the same time though) during her lifetime. Before she has chosen her danna (or had him chosen for her) she would entertain men at different sorts of social gatherings. There was absolutely no sex involved. As she becomes more popular, making a name for herself, wealthy (almost always married) men will begin a bidding ritual for her mizuage (virginity). When the highest bidder was selected, either by the geisha herself or more commonly her okiya (madam), then they would have sex. This didn't usually result in him becoming her danna though.

Now that the geisha is de-flowered, men would often woo her (bid) into a marriage like contract, as they themselves were already married and it was against the rules for a geisha to be properly married while she is still working as a geisha. This contract did not hinder her from entertaining at parties; but it did buy her freedom from her okiya, and allowed her to live lavishly in her own apartment. It was of course her duty to sleep with her danna, and only her danna, whenever he felt like it. Don't feel too sorry for the geisha though, they were hardly sex slaves. Keep in mind, if they were smart, which they usually were, they had a part in choosing their danna and, more often than not, they'd end up falling in love with him. Whether she loved him or not, she did have somewhat of a life of her own and financial freedom did buy some happiness.

Yes, if taking on a sugar daddy was like taking on a danna, than I might do just as the geisha did. But alas, our society is not as clearly defined as that of the Japaneese, with regard to the geisha/ danna relationship anyway. Let's be real here, contracts between men and a women mean nothing in our society, the boundaries would be crossed and it would end badly. Besides, and thank God for this, we already own our freedom and we don't need a man to provide for our financial security!