BDSM in Stripclubs?

[mr_punk]

i alluded to this subject on a previous thread, but since no one picked up on it........ i once read a thread on SW in which some dancers described some of the more...shall we say...exotic requests from clients. at the time, i found it amusing but ignorant of certain legal realities. so,i thought. why not bring up a few points with regards to some of the requests in the thread. you can read the thread here: http://www.stripperweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=general_general&action=display&num=1050072077 but for the sake of brevity, i'll just list some of the more obvious acts that have very real legal consequences in the U.S.


he wanted me to use his hand as an ashtray,pinch his nipple....

Probably the weirdest request I had was a guy who wanted me to choke him and bang his head against the chair in the private dance room.

I had a guy who wanted to be spanked.I BEAT HIS ASS!!!!!!!!!!! I BEAT HIS ASS!!!!!!!!!

A friend of mine had a guy in VIP ask to be kicked in the balls during a dance. She did, he asked her to kick harder!

I've also had guys want to be mildly dominated, restrained, or choked. Oh, and one guy used to tip me eighty dollars at a time to spank me, four or five times a night.

Other ones want verbal assault, and spit.

We also had a guy who was a professional dominator or something who would come in and find the most innocent looking girl and would pay $250 if she could take five spanking licks from his hand.

A buddy had a guy that used to come in and pay her like $150 to put her toes on his balls while she was wearing stockings and just push and squish while he rushed. FYI: Rushing is sniffing or huffing embalming fluid mixed with some stuff. **side note** - i'm not even going to touch that last one about rushing.

Subs who want me to verbally and/or physically abuse them - some want me to step / walk on them with my high heels, or jam my high heels into their balls, or beat the shit out of them with their own belts. I've even been known to bring my own bdsm toys from home for some regulars who liked the way I beat them.

This one guy used to come in.. pay EXTREMELY well (atleast 400 for 10 minutes) for Asian dancers to beat the shit out of him with the cord from a rice cooker he brought with him.

we call him the nutcracker - the whole dance he has her knee him as hard as possible, in his balls.....

In our lapdance area, he layed down on his back and had me wear my shoes (flip-flops) and step all over his balls.


There was a guy that wanted to spit on my face for $100. Euw, no! But another dancer let him do it!


if any of you out there practice BDSM (either knowingly or unknowingly) scenes or have some knowledge of the practice, i'm sure this comes as no surprise to you. still, the more vanilla flavored types may find it helpful. first of all, BDSM is not legal in any of the 50 states (not even in nevada). however, in a few states the activity is completely illegal, but most states have laws covering some aspects of the lifestyle rather indirectly. usually under assault and battery laws.

however, depending on where you live other statutes concerning certain "morality" laws such as prostitution, public nudity, public indecency, lewd and levicious behavior,etc may come into play. since "morality" laws varies from state to state, there is no way to asertain if it is legal or illegal without shifting through a stack of various state statues.

depending on where you live you may never have a problem with the cops. then again, while BDSM acts may not be such a big deal, say in San Francisco that certainly is not the case in Arizona where you and the customer can be arrested and charged with prostitution, sex isn't necessary in order to be charged with prostitution in AZ , in addition to your own possible assault and/or battery charges. finally, in addition to criminal charges, there are possible civil charges which may be filed as well against you and the club, if someone gets injured.

on a side note, in case it isn't clear. while the constitution may protect a dancer while dancing nude, the Supreme Court didn't extend that protection to kicking field goals using a guy's scrotal sac.....didn't Clarance Thomas write that somewhere in one of his opinions? anyway, if you're going to engage in BDSM (either knowingly or unknowingly) acts, here's a some terms you should know. i'll just use a general legal description of assault and battery, you'll have to check your local statutes for the exact language:

assault - assault is the threat of physical attack. physical contact isn't necessary. for example: if i raise my fist at another person in a threating manner and say "i'll knock your f***king block off". in some states non-consenual touching is battery. BTW, spitting is considered assault. if you don't believe me, spit on a cop and i'll lay odds that he charges you with assault and he'll probably take you on a long,long drive way back to the station house. :-)

battery is the actual physical contact - such as spanking. i don't think any explaination is needed.

consent this is very important. of course, "consent" means to give your permission or approval. however, while consent is a defense,it is not always available as a defense nor is it a guarantee against being arrested. for example, your customer can't give his consent if he is too intoxicated from sniffing glue or drunk.

as i stated before, depending on where you live you may never have a problem with the cops. however,that doesn't mean that the police can't charge and arrest you with any of the crimes i mentioned previously even if the customer gives his consent. Tip O'Neal used to say that "all politics are local", whether or not you go to trial could depend on a number of factors. of course, practicing these activities at a home has a greater degree of protection than at a SC. however, depending on the political and moral landscape of the prosecutors office and how big of a dick he wishes to be or how ambitious. you may very well find yourself looking at some serious charges. of course, feel free dimiss it as flamebait if you wish. after all, i'm not a lawyer,i just play one on...... however,if you think it can't happen to you, ask yourself this question: if a vanilla-type cop walks in on you beating a customer with a belt,who is screaming his head off. do you think he's going to correctly determine that this is consensual BDSM play and turn around and walk out or arrest everyone to protect his job and career advancement? whatever your answer may be,i do hope you have a good lawyer on retainer.

[electric_head]

Hmm, makes kissing look kind of pale.

[SportsWriter2]

For every story I've heard about a guy wanting abuse, I've found a dancer who wants it as well. It's not about money because the ones I know offer 241 and hang around to talk about it.... But it's still safer than GF kissing.

[Chuck149]

Geez i have never seen any of this sh*t happening in any of the clubs I've been to. If I did I probably wouldn't be back. Wow, no wonder some of these ladies are down about thier jobs. But hey, I guess some of these ladies are into this kinda thing, just like thier into HJ's and BJ's. To each her own.

[electric_head]

Maybe, but I don't want my balls mashed to find out.

[McCain]

Punk raises some interesting points regarding BDSM related laws and how they affect stripping.

For example, in Idaho, the lewd behavior laws concerning strippers prohibit self-flagellation or flagellation of another person. I.E.: Whipping, spanking, etc. So, let's say the local Officer Hottie happens to come hunkering in to check on things, and I happen to be on stage smacking my own ass... OOOPS! Big fine and a criminal record.... Same if he happens to walk in while I have you bent over my knee, even though you asked - nay, even PAID - me to do it...

McCain

[sol_de_pr2]

I must confess that I was stripped and belt-whipped in the nuts on my last visit to the Hormigueros, PR club I go to on occasion. Thank goodness I was able to recuperate in time for a scorching private dance with my favorite dancer in that club.

[X]

I'm not into the BDSM thing...but this one dancer put her hand around my neck, but she wasn't choking me that i couldn't breathe, while doing her dance...i gotta admit it was a turn-on, although i wouldn't have believed it before that day...

[SportsWriter2]

Some dancers like to dominate guys. Some like to "play rough" in a kind of even fight. And some submissive dancers just like to take it.... Scary what dancers and customers learn about themselves when they start experimenting.

[mr_punk]

For example, in Idaho, the lewd behavior laws concerning strippers prohibit self-flagellation or flagellation of another person.




oh sure,that's pretty common. that was one of the reasons why i posted that "WTF is a real" dancer?" thread. i thought that other people were aware of that fact. i even alluded to such an act in the thread. it looks like i was mistaken. that's why i couldn't understand, why a dancer would make a distinction based on a legal basis or vanilla sex, when in the eyes of the law, if you are performing these BDSM acts. you are in effect performing extras. i just found the whole idea bewildering. of course, you're free to believe that you are a "clean" dancer. you're free to believe that the distinction between "clean" dancers from "dirty" dancers is sex. you're entitled to all the arrogant views you wish. however, all the belief in the world won't save you from being arrested and charged with prostitution because a guy paid you a extra $100 to slap him around. many laws don't make that distinction. the problem is while many people say they understand that sex comes in many forms,they really don't understand that sex comes in many forms. unfortunately,many lawmakers understand that quite well. then again,what do i know. i'm just here to spread flamebait and negativity. ::)

[mr_punk]

If you have a dancer who spanks a customer who asks for it but she doesn't do overt sex acts, and then you have another dancer who does over sex acts, it's pretty clear in the minds of most moralizers, including those who are on judges' benches and jury boxes and in police uniforms, which is more likely to end up with a criminal conviction.

maybe or maybe not. as i mentioned before it all depends on the statues. i have no idea where most moralizers,jurors or judges live. so,i can't say what they are most likely to do. i never claimed such knowledge. however,i do know that both of these acts are prohibited in certain areas and since we're theorizing. i do know that if both dancers are in an area where they are both prohibited,then both are more likely to end up with a criminal conviction. legally,it's still money in exchange for sex (or at least assault). the difference is, that it doesn't fit the average vanilla person idea of sex. i'm sure you understand that ,ideally,laws are created to serve the public interest. now, without getting into the ideas of what that interest should be. if a law is created with the idea that vanilla sex in exchange for money is illegal. why should a law prohibiting non-vanilla type sex, which may include acts of assault and battery, in exchange for money be any different?



Well, if one's definition of a "clean" dancer is one that does not engage in overt sex acts, that still applies. It's not necessarily an arrogant view. It could simply be a personal preference to not involve oneself in another's bodily fluids.

fine by me. as i mentioned before,anyone is entitled to believe or feel whatever they wish. in fact, feel free to disregard anything i mentioned previously about this post. however,that belief won't save you if you find yourself on the wrong end of the stick because you didn't know that you could be charged with assault or prostitution because you were ignorant of the law. i don't think any cop, the DA, a judge or a jury will consider that a good defense. it's not like talking your way out of a traffic ticket.



I bet that a dancer offering a blowjob for $100 is about 100 times more likely to be arrested than a dancer who obliges a customer's offer of $100 to get slapped. But that's just my own intuition.

see above.


Oh, I don't believe that at all. You make good points that sometimes I agree with. You make good points that sometimes I disagree with.

same here. even if you seem come off a bit as nebbish and obsequious. C'est la vie.

[McCain]

Punk,

Although it would be considered a very narrow / strict view regarding what constitutes as "extras" - and is admittedly subjective to the locality in question - I see what you are saying about BDSM acts within SCs. I'll even agree with the validity of your statement. But I am going to respectfully assume that by "you", you meant a general audience and not me specifically. :)

An interesting note, though:
Although the specifics of the laws applying to strippers may vary from area to area, there is almost always a very vague statement that anything deemed as "lewd and lascivious" behavior is illegal. Realizing that most places do not have set, specific examples of what the consider to be lewd or lascivious - the idea is that the officer or whoever will just know it when he sees it... (going back to the days of Tipper Gore, and even further to the Meese commission)....
So, at that club in Idaho, for example, I could take a stuffed animal on stage if I was planning to use it for, say, a soccer ball, but it was a definite no-no if I planned on having it, say, hanging out of my thong. Using it as a soccer ball - though I may be very scantily clad and have my tits 6 inches from some guys nose - is not lewd and lascivious. Using it in ANY remotely suggestive manner, even if I had all my clothes on, IS.

Now my question in response to this idiotic form of law is this:
Is there much of anything that strippers commonly do that is NOT what most non-strippers would consider lewd and lascivious? I mean, really... Isn't pretty much everything we do within an SC suggestive in some way?

McCain

[mr_punk]

Punk,Although it would be considered a very narrow / strict view regarding what constitutes as "extras" - and is admittedly subjective to the locality in question

oh,i agree. i always maintained that SC were part of the sex industry. now, everyone may have done the same thing within their own area (inside the industry) in the past,but that doesn't seem the trend today,at least in my opinion. there may be a time when the issue becomes moot. no matter whether it's legal or not,but don't quote me on that.



But I am going to respectfully assume that by "you", you meant a general audience and not me specifically.

and you would be correct


An interesting note, though: Although the specifics of the laws applying to strippers may vary from area to area, there is almost always a very vague statement that anything deemed as "lewd and lascivious" behavior is illegal. Realizing that most places do not have set, specific examples of what the consider to be lewd or lascivious - the idea is that the officer or whoever will just know it when he sees it..

it's all too common. i'll agree about the vaugeness of certain laws. ultimately, i think,that blame lies with our legislative leaders rather than officers. they just make the arrests and let the lawyers figure it out. then again, i remember the days when a cop,if he really wanted to be a dick,would ask a dancer to remove her pasties(opaqueness check) in order to get a cheap bust. in any case, you might find this interesting.

http://www.pe.com/columns/cassiemacduff/10012314_PE_NEWS_nbcass02.html


Now my question in response to this idiotic form of law is this:
Is there much of anything that strippers commonly do that is NOT what most non-strippers would consider lewd and lascivious?

you mean besides moving every stripper in america to san francisco? probably not. the mere existence or the building of a SC is enough send soccer moms,the city council and the PD into a tizzy. it's just part of the cost of doing business. <begin rant mode> i have nothing against public nudity like at a beach. however, if they were really serious about to putting an end to lewd and lascivious behavior. they should start by arresting some of the guys who feel the need to take off their shirts at sporting events. i attended a baseball game recently, where i learned there's only so much horror the human mind can comprehend.<end rant mode>


On the other side, he probably disagreed with my remark about gratuitous negativity.

not at all. i meant what i wrote.

[McCain]

then again, i remember the days when a cop,if he really wanted to be a dick,would ask a dancer to remove her pasties(opaqueness check) in order to get a cheap bust. in any case, you might find this interesting.

"Back in the day..." I hate to say it, but the cops are still using this cheap ploy. Now, they are also pulling crap like claiming that liquid latex pasties do not adequately disguise a human nipple - even if said LL in question is lime green or fluorescent purple.

About 2, maybe 3, years ago in Boise, right after they outlawed full-nude an true topless clubs, there was a big hullaballoo where the cops (paid for by taxes, and using tax money) went on a bunch of undercover stings to the local pastie clubs. This was ordered by the local mayor, Brent Coles, and the election was on the looming horizon. Liquid latex is all the rage there, as it is apparently much easier and more reliable than ye olde pasties, and girls with LL pasties got busted and fined left and right. Quite a few of them even got hauled down to the pokey.

Well, this was outrageous enough first in the fact that these girls were busted SOLELY on this reason - no lewd and lascivious behavior, no prostitution, no drugs, etc....
Most of the girls nailed were single moms and college students trying to pull in a few extra bucks to keep a roof over their heads. Most of them could not afford these kinds of fines...
Any girl with children who was nailed in these busts was fully capable of being subjected to an investigation by Child Protection authorities (yes, you can still have your kids taken from you for leading what is considered an "immoral and dissolute" lifestyle)...
And, LAST BUT NOT LEAST, after all the hell these girls were put through, after their names were dragged through the mud by every local media outlet, after they shelled out far more than they could afford in legal fees, after our tax money was blown on the stings and on the ensuing legal battles....
It was ruled that these busts were INVALID. >:(

Another favorite tactic is waiting until a girl is off for the night and is walking out of the club to their ride home, and doing one of two things (knowing that most of us have had a few while we're working - "occupational hazard"):
1. Nailing a girl, before she can even get to the vehicle, for public intoxication, or for drunk and disorderly...
2. Following a girl home, and either stopping her for suspected DUI if she is driving, or stopping her and searching for drugs if she is a passenger. With this one, they are using the nice little "implied consent" loophole that most states have attached to receiving your driver's license.


the mere existence or the building of a SC is enough send soccer moms,the city council and the PD into a tizzy. it's just part of the cost of doing business.

What's funny about that region is that the nude and topless clubs were banned as a result of Mormon complaints about topless sunbathers in public parks. It used to be legal there to be topless in public, so long as one was not acting in a "lewd and lascivious" manner (there we go with that one again!). Well, a bunch of Mormons - which is the major religion in Idaho - got all tizzied up about the fact that their precious sons were occasionally seeing a human tit catching a few rays in public parks, and they went on a political rampage to have these activities made illegal. Then the argument somehow progressed to how strip clubs (which, might I add, you must be of age of majority to enter, and which must be located "X" distance away from child-oriented business) were somehow corrupting their impressionable children. Well, the Powers That Be slapped pasties or bikinis on every stripper in town faster than you could ask "Can I get that in $1s?" It was contested with the state Supreme Court, and it stands based on the US Supreme Court opinions (is it the Erie case?). The only exception to this day has been nudity that Powers That Be felt was "artistic" - i.e., a full-nude all-live-model performance art piece held in a place where any person of any age could enter, so long as they had the money to buy the ticket. Oh, and the mayor spent our money sending all the top PD brass to see that too - just to make sure that all the naked people behaved in a cultured manner in front of the ten year olds, don't you know....

You know, I wonder what they would do if a troop came through to perform "Oh, Calcutta!"...

McCain

[Kittie]

Is BDSM really illegal in all 50 sates? I had no idea. About a year ago, I went to a strip club as a customer, and the night I was there a group of people came in and started setting up tables and stuff and then started putting on a show. I went over to see what was going on and I found that they were doing some kind of BDSM expo thing. Had people chained up, whips, belts, gags, hot oils and waxes and everything.