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03-01-2003, 07:53 AM
If the governing laws of the area that a club is located in state that contact dancing is illegal do you expect or demand that the dancer break the law during a dance. In short, do you expect contact dances even if it means the dancer could be arrested?

Richard_Head
03-01-2003, 08:07 AM
I for one would never ask for or even expect a dancer to put her job at risk to perform contact dances. On a side note, I cannot believe that there are actually places out there that will arrest dancers for contact dances, go fight some real crime for christsakes!!!

witt
03-01-2003, 08:08 AM
Who are we as customers to demand that a dancer did anything she did not want to do ? What a dancer does or does not do is up to her. As an informed customer you can always ask what to expect, but I would never want her to do something she was not comfortable with.

mr_punk
03-01-2003, 01:45 PM
that's sounds like an air dance club. i don't do air dance. thus,there is no expectation.

Chuck149
03-02-2003, 02:11 AM
It seems to me that there are only two ways a dancer can get arrested for illegal contact:
1. Giving said contact to an undercover cop. I am not one of those, so she's safe with me. ;)

2. If she is "caught on camera" giving illegal contact. Cameras are run by the club. It is in the best interest of the club to not report the activity to law enforcement. Perhaps they can fire the lady if they wish, but it will never go beyond that.

So I guess my answer is:
No I do not demand or expect extras from any dancer; I would not risk putting a lady in jeopardy with the law or her club. All I expect is good sensual dance. However, all "extra" donations are graciously accepted.

Alanna
03-03-2003, 07:53 AM
actually, Chuck, there's a third way a dancer can be arrested for doing extras: just being there when a raid occurs whether she was doing anything illegal or not.

SuperDude
03-03-2003, 10:09 AM
The new no-contact rules went into effect in Michigan on March 1st. So far nothing has changed. Contact in clubs is thriving, but I'm sure when it's poltically advantageous, some one will be busted.

doc-catfish
03-03-2003, 11:45 AM
The new no-contact rules went into effect in Michigan on March 1st. So far nothing has changed. Contact in clubs is thriving, but I'm sure when it's poltically advantageous, some one will be busted.
That's ususually how it works. They know that the cops cannot be everywhere at once. I'll bet the clubs there have a lookout in the parking lot checking to see when the fuzz pulls in. All the clubs here have that.

Sometimes I wonder if thats REALLY what the authorities want. They want to give the impression to the local puritans that they're out to shut these places down, but don't want to lose the tax revenue that they generate.

Chuck149
03-03-2003, 11:51 AM
actually, Chuck, there's a third way a dancer can be arrested for doing extras: just being there when a raid occurs whether she was doing anything illegal or not.
You've got to be kidding, what ever happened to probable cause. I was in law enforcement for 23 years and always need PC to arrest someone. Geeeeez that sucks.. I hope they don't take customers too :-/

Bridgette
03-03-2003, 12:50 PM
Dancers can also be arrested if a vice cop claims to have 'seen' them breaking the law. Happens all the time.

I reckon all of our Houston (and some from other cities) friends expect the girls to give extras, and care not if the girl is risking arrest for it.

Chuck149
03-03-2003, 12:58 PM
If a Vice cop sees or claims to see illegal activity then that's probable cause for arrest, but just a general sweep of everyone in a club is Bull sh.. Does that really happen or does it only happen in the movies?

Bridgette
03-03-2003, 01:29 PM
It really happens, usually near election time. I had some friends I used to work with in New Orleans get hauled in not too long ago - they were at a newer club in the suburbs and vice came in, closed the club and arrested everybody, including customers and manager. They did the same thing in other neighborhood clubs around the same time. Of course it was high election season at the time. They claimed to have seen several girls and customers 'touching' on several previous visits to the club and on the night of the bust. Of course it was alotta bs >:(

sol_de_pr2
03-03-2003, 11:23 PM
If it's just plain non-sexual touching then folks at Nola are much more conservative than here in PR. There are clubs here where there's a "bit" more than plain touching, if you get my drift. Some get raided, others don't (wonder why :-/).

Alanna
03-03-2003, 11:48 PM
You've got to be kidding, what ever happened to probable cause. I was in law enforcement for 23 years and always need PC to arrest someone. Geeeeez that sucks.. I hope they don't take customers too

well, that's a good question. actually, Melonie has a memorable (and "expensive") story about that. since the object of the game is to arrest as many people as they can in a raid, they'll claim to have seen dancers doing something illegal when they clearly were not... i know one girl that was pulled out of the dressing room in order to be added to the arrest stack. in order to even do a raid on a club, they spend a lot of time and money doing undercover work, so of course at the time of the raid, they'll grab as many as they can to make sure it ends up being worth their while... doesn't matter what's actually going on at the time they dash in. no doubt they arrest on a percentage basis... X many people in the club = Y many dancer arrests and Z many customer arrests (who's doing what doesn't really factor into the equation very much).

from my experience and from what i read in a topic or two on this same subject on SW, customers are almost never arrested along with the dancers regardless of whether any customers were clearly doing something illegal that was being paid for (although it seems that recently more and more customers along with dancers are being arrested... blame the conservatives that got voted into office the last go-round). it's my guess that they tend to ignore arresting customers because the whole reason for the raid is politically motivated and arresting customers (or even one "certain" customer) could cause more political backlash that would damage the whole point to the raid in the first place. then again, as long as a club is careful to make sufficient... er... "political contributions", they can be pretty darn safe from a raid no matter what's going on in the club. (i've actually heard this called the Doughnut Fund once or twice... ah, you know, Chuck, the cops and doughnuts theory ;) )

and a raid isn't even the biggest threat... another effective angle used is one or two undercovers are sent in, they spend the good citizen's tax dollars buying dances for awhile, and purposely try to grope and fondle where they aren't legally allowed to, and even though the unlucky dancer on the undercover's lap would be telling him he can't do that and batting his hands away, as long as he's fast enough to get in a quick illegal touch, he'll arrest her and anyone else in the dance room he "saw" doing anything illegal. it's about as low down on the probable cause chain as it gets, but they know when the cases go before a judge that it's very difficult for the dancers to try to disprove.

where i live, over the past 6 months or so, the powers that be have found it more advantageous to raid for drugs rather then sex offenses... the dope aspect tends to actually get a club shut down (if that's the aim of the powers that be)... 2 or 3 clubs here bit the big one just last summer and another last fall had to close for a short period because of the drug angle. DEA around here doesn't care all that much if it's dancers or customers that they arrest, although the majority of the arrests are dancers (regardless of what dope offenses they find in the raid). that way they can use the drug angle as another way to stir up the public by using the low-life stripper stereotype... "see? strippers are all deadbeat drug addicts and the clubs need to be shut down to save them from their evil ways and not sully the good and sober citizens!" that tactic helps to persuade those people on the fence about the sexual aspects of strip clubs... "so what if you don't care what people do sexually behind closed doors! LOOK! they're all deadbeat drug addicts too!"

funny thing is, i've wiggled around on the laps of more cops, judges and local politicians then i care to try and count anymore. ::)

FoxHunter
03-04-2003, 09:50 AM
Allana wrote and a raid isn't even the biggest threat... another effective angle used is one or two undercovers are sent in, they spend the good citizen's tax dollars buying dances for awhile, and purposely try to grope and fondle where they aren't legally allowed to, and even though the unlucky dancer on the undercover's lap would be telling him he can't do that and batting his hands away, as long as he's fast enough to get in a quick illegal touch, he'll arrest her and anyone else in the dance room he "saw" doing anything illegal. it's about as low down on the probable cause chain as it gets, but they know when the cases go before a judge that it's very difficult for the dancers to try to disprove.

This is EXACTLY what happened to my ATF in Tampa( I travel alot and have several ATF- guess that makes me a PL ;) )

As for the topic, I have overheard many a guy in clubs tell dancers things like you'll never get caught, or come on let me _, if you don't do _ I wont pay for the dance, etc. They just dont let up either :-/ I once had to come to the defense of a dancer who was being held down in a VIP. The bouncer was no where to be seen and I could let the guy get away with it ! I think this kind of crap happens more to dancers more than we realize

FoxHunter
03-04-2003, 09:52 AM
man I need to proof before hitting enter-I meant I couldn't let the guy get away with it

Bridgette
03-04-2003, 01:56 PM
Well FoxHunter, that's a refreshing change after reading alot of 'I want extra', 'I only want the girls who play', etc. Yes you're right it does happen more than we care to remember. At least in my club they police everyone better, so things are less likely to get out of hand, but some guys just won't let up with the blasted begging, nasty remarks and endlessly trying to grab what they're not supposed to. It only makes it hard for me to do a proper dance because every time someone tries grabbing, I have to visibly shove his hands away or face fines from management. When I have to constantly fight him, I can't do a decent dance. Fortunately, the manager will only allow that to go on for so long before he comes and tells the guy he has to back off.

The funny thing I notice is, that most of my misbehaving customers are the American tourists, not the locals or travelling businessmen. For some reason the tourists display a REALLY bad attitude, telling me how the place is such a ripoff because we can't go nude, how 'back home' they only have to pay $10 to get a full-contact nude lapdance, and generally act extremely obnoxious with the trying grab, kiss, poke and prod us dancers on the stage when they're only tipping dollars! And don't even think about taking them for a private dance! They won't pay. They'll sit and flash a $100 or a few $20's and act like I'm supposed to suddenly give them whatever they want just because they flashed a little money. It's like they think that because they are gracing us with their tourism that we should give them everything for nothing, and they should be able to leave all their brains and manners 'back home'. They also hardly tip the waitresses and bartenders, maybe grudgingly hand her a dollar for a table full of drinks. Maybe I've been away too long, but I most certainly am seeing why so many folks outside the US have such a negative view of Americans.... Oh, and the tourists we get from other parts of the world are very well-behaved, so it is unfortunately limited to the American tourists. So please guys, when you travel, take your manners with you.

Ok I guess I got a little off-topic there, but it's something that's been bothering me for a while now. I don't like think that people from my own country are less civilized than those from everywhere else! :(