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View Full Version : hallelujah! why extras exist and why they will never die



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mr_punk
03-27-2004, 02:01 PM
i met this dancer at the sc a couple of days ago. she was a new dancer at the club with previous experience from another club in another state known for it's mileage. during the conversation, she mentioned that she tried another club, but it was boring and in her view, "those girls didn't do anything.". cha-ching. so, i bought a dance to see if she could walk the talk. she could and i ended up buying a lot more dances. on the way home, i thought the nature of extras in a sc and why they will never leave until the industry itself dies.

1)the sc isn't the place for extras.

why not? you know, there really isn't a DMZ between stripping and other parts of the sex industry. the sc industry never really lived in a vacumn removed from the rest of the industry. that was just a marketing gimmick to make it more palatable for the schlubs who go to the club and as a hedge against possible unintended consequences. no, the industry made it's bed long ago. i pretty much outlined some of my views of the industry here (http://www.stripclubjunkie.com/forum/index.php/yabbse/t1362.htm).

2)extras put the other dancers at risk for getting busted.

yes and so does the industry itself. any customer who has greased the palm of a club manager or bouncer, to pretend the customer is invisible for the next 30 minutes, knows that the industy isn't always so concered with risk. frankly, if strippers are so concered about risk. why aren't they leaving the industy in droves for jobs at Costco? why aren't more clubs complaing about having a hard time finding dancers? or is the risk worth the reward?

3) extras put more pressure on the other dancers to perform them.

supposedly, the theory works like this: one customer sees one girl performing extras and wants the same treatment. so what? most customers notice that dancers usually become a little friendlier or smile and laugh a little more, when a customer decides to spend more money. in any case, the customer seeking extras was never her customer in the first place. no more than the dancer, who can't deliver to the guy who is seeking good conversation or the guy who just wants a good grind.

4)those dancers don't belong in a sc. dancers only dance.

what does that exactly mean? no matter, that's hardly the case, the system really isn't set up for dancers alone. did you know police departments often give their police officers (ie - in the case of a shooting) and candidates psychological evaluations. the test is far from perfect. however, it can identify candidates who are most likely to be suited for the position and weed out the undesirable (and probably the more obvious) candidates or officers unfit for duty. ultimately, the test can't tell you, if the officer will turn out to be: a good cop, a bad cop, a lazy cop waiting on retirement or a cop that would rather rip and run the streets and crack heads rather than "to serve and protect". it also can't identify those who may succumb to alcoholism and suicide. a high incidence of both is not uncommon in many departments. my only point is that, IMHO, there is often a correlation between occupations and the type of people, that gravitate to that occupation.

the sc indusrty (and sex work in general) has always had an "outlaw" aura about itself that will attract a certain group of women. furthermore, exposure to the industry itself may open other doors or those doors may be opened wider. in the end, the exact nature of those traits (e.g. flakiness) really doesn't matter because those problems affect other parts of the sex industry. i once stated, the only thing that separates a stripper from a civilian is not her looks, it's not her personality and it's not her dancing ability. ultimately, it's her willingness to take off her clothes and perform for strange men for money. however, if this considered the only "suitable" trait for a stripper and the aura of the industry attracts a certain type of woman. might not that attraction draw the "unsuitable" candidates", as well?

YES!!!!!!! :highfive: fortunately, that trait isn't limited to strippers nor is that trait, the only suitable trait for sex work in general. what if you have a dancer that has an additional trait(s) as well? such as, a stripper who has traits also suitable for porn. a stripper who has traits also suitable for escort work? what if a stripper does't want to be filmed on tape nor meet strangers alone in an unsecure location and yet doesn't mind having sex with men for money in a sc. there's bound to be a percentage of these women attracted to the sex industry and a number of them working in the sc industry, as well. at least, that's what i noticed.

sander8son
03-27-2004, 03:06 PM
3) extras put more pressure on the other dancers to perform them.

supposedly, the theory works like this: one customer sees one girl performing extras and wants the same treatment. so what? most customers notice that dancers usually become a little friendlier or smile and laugh a little more, when a customer decides to spend more money. in any case, the customer seeking extras was never her customer in the first place. no more than the dancer, who can't deliver to the guy who is seeking good conversation or the guy who just wants a good grind.



your post was well written. ive quoted above something simmillar to what i had posted on SW(too which i recieved much critisizm). i belive i posted something about varried customer groups and providing a service that is desired.

what i like the most is how an "extras girl" in one state can be a low milage girl in another. for instance a girl who grinds for 4 second intervals occaisonally in most MA clubs would be an extras girl. but if she danced the same exact way in other parts of the country(pretty much anywhere) she would be low milage. so they will call the girl doing this in mass an extras girl(or a prostitute). but someone who grinds fulltime in a club(doesn't use hands or suck dick or anything, just grinds) in RI is considered a dancer. the RI girl is clearly offering more contact/services, but since it is more legal, they dont consider her a prostitute/extras girl. this is absurd. with no safe outlet to go for sex, ofcorse guys and girls are going to turn to SCs. so, either legalize prostitution then you can have your sex clubs and glitz clubs, or put up with it.

danhunt
03-27-2004, 04:43 PM
Extras exsist not because there are men who want them but because there are strippers who are willing to give them. If a dancer doesn't like this fact then they should get out of the Adult Business.
They have always exsisted, (see the Bible, The history of Rome, etc.) and they will continue to exsist.

Katrine
03-28-2004, 01:33 AM
Awwwww Punkie....you big weeping vagina...post this on the Pink site...see what kind of comradery you get...hahahahahahaha!!!

I' ve dancing in Texas almost all of my stripping career, I am pretty jaded.....from my observation, the only thing that prevents excessive extras in the clubs I've been to/worked at, is an open floor plan which makes it hard for overt sexual practices to occur......


I need to see some of these gown clubs where apparently all the girls are clean showgirls whose charm and wit outclass any grinder......then I'll be angry....


(Drunken Kat, who will now shutup and eat her minestrone...)

Meow!

EvilCyn
03-28-2004, 07:24 AM
I have no problems with extras taken outside the club.........
This for me is strickly in a cleanlyness basis.......

What each person does is there own, and if they are rakin in some cash suckin dick, by all means they have every right to go for it......
I just don't want to see or hear about it because then I do not want to touch anything in the club..........
My husband and I have been swingin for 13 years, if I come in contact with something, it better be from me gettin some ass of my own ............

Licks Cyn

sander8son
03-28-2004, 10:35 AM
i'm sure you did recieve criticism. that's because dancers really believe that extras makes the playing field uneven. well, the playing field was never level. for example, most dancers can accept the fact that a customer who prefers a blond with overinflated tits won't buy dances from a brunette dancer with small, but natural breasts. so, unless the brunette gets bolt-ons and dyes her hair. she will never get dances from that customer. OTOH, a customer who won't buy dances from the blond with big bolt-ons who doesn't give BBBJ, but prefers the small breasted brunette who gives a ball collapsing BBBJ. so, why would a BBBJ make that much of a difference to strippers? it's simple, she thinks it's cutting into her money. of course, that's not true because he was never her customer (and she is only getting in his way) and there are plenty of other suckers in the sc.



in essence this is what i said. the one intelligent point that a dancer made(not sure which one) in regards to the "they weren't your customers to begin with" argument was somewhat along the lines of what follows.

basically saying, if a guy goes in looking for extras but doesn't know who gives them and can't see the LD room, he has to play the crapshoot to try and find the extra's girl. therefor he will be the customer of the non-extras dancers until he finds the extras girl. this makes sense. and once he finds the extras girl he stops playing the field. works out for the non-extras girls who got him to get dances with them before he found his girl, but (in their opinion) screws the non-extras girls who wont get the shot to prove they wont offer what he wants because hes already found it.

so although this is how it would cut into some girls profits, its hardly a worthwhile argument. if you're not providing the service a customer demands/wants, dont be pissed when he goes elsewhere to find it. it really is much like the example you gave of the different physical characteristics. everyguy has different tastes, some like blondes, some like brunettes, some like conversation, others like cleveland steamers. i just think they're all worried that if customers actually got what they wanted there would be a surplus of non-extras dancers. which is true. so like i said, either be a non-extras dancer and cater to your clientel, become an extras dancer( ladies i couldn't give a shit if you give extras or not, im not trying to whore anyone out), or find a new line of work!!!!! its a perfectly competitive industry, much like farming. only reason that non-extras dancing has remained relatively lucrative for such a large mass of dancers is due to legal restrictions on the extras. but either way, stop bitching about and getting "even" with the extras girls.

Isis
03-28-2004, 11:35 AM
I take it Mr Punk recently read the extra article on the front page of the pink site ;D



legalize prostitution then you can have your sex clubs and glitz clubs, or put up with it.


I think thats the answer personaly 8) but i dont see the whole US w/ legal sex clubs however i do think we may just see some other select locations like outside LV popping up here and there.

anywhoo- overall i think they industry is slowly going toward glitz clubs. Some of the more well known glitz clubs have franchised out and since they have lots of $ and legal backing...well i think thats an indicator of what to the near future holds for stripclubs especialy considering the recent political climate here in the US ::)

mr_punk
03-28-2004, 07:25 PM
basically saying, if a guy goes in looking for extras but doesn't know who gives them and can't see the LD room, he has to play the crapshoot to try and find the extra's girl. therefor he will be the customer of the non-extras dancers until he finds the extras girl. this makes sense. and once he finds the extras girl he stops playing the field. works out for the non-extras girls who got him to get dances with them before he found his girl, but (in their opinion) screws the non-extras girls who wont get the shot to prove they wont offer what he wants because hes already found it.sure. which is why i don't advocate the practice of customers spending a lot of upfront on strippers. in general, it's not a good practice until she proves that she can earn your money. i think it's a good practice to develop, no matter what you're looking for in a stripper.



i just think they're all worried that if customers actually got what they wanted there would be a surplus of non-extras dancers. which is true.don't you mean a "surplus of extra dancers"? on second thought, it really doesn't matter. historically, the industry has never been about giving the customer what he wants. frankly, it's wasn't a priority for them. why not? the suckers will pay for anything. however, the big difference between now and then is that the industry has been commodified and oversaturated (the industry's own fault) which leads to fiercer competition for the same dollars. which is good for the consumer.



I take it Mr Punk recently read the extra article on the front page of the pink site.lol..i just took a peak at that article. i suppose, it is an effective sales pitch (for his seminars) in a dave del dotto-esque sort of way. speaking strictly as a customer, i highly doubt any of his sales techniques would be effective on me.



overall i think they industry is slowly going toward glitz clubs. Some of the more well known glitz clubs have franchised out and since they have lots of $ and legal backing.a la Deja Vu? maybe. it's still early in the game. you know, glitz clubs aren't new. in fact, glitz clubs probably lead to the revitalization of the industry. their marketing plan made the industry more palatable for middle america. in any case, the sex industry is subject to the same market forces that faces any normal business. as i mentioned before, the sc industry has been commodified and oversaturated. eventually, there will be a shaking out of the weaker competitors who can't or won't meet the demands of the market. it's a natural business cycle. the smaller clubs which have a strong customer base or niche (eg - GGR) will survive by offering their customers something of value. however, that doesn't mean extras don't occur at DV. quite the opposite, the general business model for success for most parts of the sex industry hasn't changed all that much over the years. it's just more efficient. ruthlessly, cut costs (and increase your profit margin) by treating your employees abominably. speaking strictly from a business perspective, strippers are a cheap, unskilled and easily replaceable source of labor. a club's loyal and regular spending customer is worth his weight in strippers to a club because he's much harder to replace than a stripper.

sander8son
03-29-2004, 01:11 PM
. if they find the risk that so intolerable. perhaps, raising chickens would be a more suitable line of work for these people. ::)


what about choking them?

THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!! thought that was really approriate regarding the thread and all. lol, im freakin hillarious.

polecat
03-29-2004, 02:24 PM
A couple points I feel need rebutting here.



1)the sc isn't the place for extras.

why not? you know, there really isn't a DMZ between stripping and other parts of the sex industry.


I have to strongly disagree. I still believe in the philosophy of division between stripclubs and sexclubs. There are customers for both- a married traveler doesn't want to "cheat", or a safe place to take a bachelor without fear of being lynched by the bride-to-be, etc.etc.

Obviously, in that utopian world, there would likely be more sexclubs than stripclubs, but there is a DMZ between a traditional stripclub experience versus a sexclub.



2)extras put the other dancers at risk for getting busted.

yes and so does the industry itself. any customer who has greased the palm of a club manager or bouncer, to pretend the customer is invisible for the next 30 minutes, knows that the industy isn't always so concered with risk.

You are again creating a specialized example to try and apply to the whole. I'd easily say the amount of stripclub customers that grease management's palms probably lies somewhere in the range of 1-4% of the total clientele.

The point of varied risk potential has already been brought forth, so I wont mirror that point again.



3) extras put more pressure on the other dancers to perform them.

supposedly, the theory works like this: one customer sees one girl performing extras and wants the same treatment. so what? most customers notice that dancers usually become a little friendlier or smile and laugh a little more, when a customer decides to spend more money. in any case, the customer seeking extras was never her customer in the first place. no more than the dancer, who can't deliver to the guy who is seeking good conversation or the guy who just wants a good grind.


You are forgetting how offerings at a club mold the customer base that visit/patronize a given establishment over time.

Do you go to 7-11 looking for color televisions? Obviously not, but if 7-11's started carrying damn good color televisions, suddenly a good percentage of the customers walking in the door are going to be looking for color televisions, leaving the hot dogs rotating and nachos cheese dispensers lonely and abandoned.

Stripclubs turned sexclubs are no different. If say 20% of the dancers offer extras, the ratio of visitors looking specifically for extras increases which reduces the number of valid hustles for non-extras girls. You're absolutely right that these customers wouldn't patronize the non-extras girls, but instead prefer what they are looking for. But from a larger scope, the club "motif" changes and thus brings a lesser ratio of the types of customers the other dancers need to survive.

The openly sexclubs in SF can only sustain maybe 3-4 non-extras dancers and allow them to make good earnings. It's because the clientele is selectively pursuing extras. Smaller clubs in other regions have the same effect on customer ratios. The club owners are obviously happy with this since it can manage to bring more traffic through the club, enough to compensate for city hall/law enforcement kick-backs to sustain safe operations... but for the non-extras dancers, if the ratio of non-extras pursuing customers falls, they are left with no option other than to change clubs as they are fighting for 20-30% of the PL traffic, versus 70-80% like they would at clubs without such readily available extras.



4)those dancers don't belong in a sc. dancers only dance.

what does that exactly mean? no matter, that's hardly the case, the system really isn't set up for dancers alone.

Another wide-brush being used to paint an entire macrocosm.

Sure, a lot of women come off the streets, walk up and down the stage, maybe twirl around the pole once or twice, drop on the floor, raise their legs, spread them for V-for-Victory, get up on all fours, crawl around on stage, then collect their cash... then say "I'm a dancer! I live for the stage!" It's not like there is some academy or certification for whether or not someone is a certified stripper- like ballet or whatnot.

But there ARE dancers out there. The one's where the fact they are scantily clad is just a bonus, and they'd be equally captivating on stage fully clothed just by their incredible flexibility, technique, moves, grace and style. I'm thoroughly entertained just to see their stage performance, and would easily pay $50-$75 for a stage admission for just their choreographed performance. They would easily be burlesque/show girl quality performers and absolutely should be allowed to pursue their art without having to step over into the sex industry of simple arousal and physical stimulation to make rent.

And PLENTY of clubs are setup for such.. it's just not every "dancer" in these clubs plays by the rules and starts forming incorrect expectations amongst the customers.

---

Lastly, before anyone get's the wrong ideas- I'm all with you guys on the whole extra's thing. It's not my gig, but I feel as long as everyone is safe and happy, more power to them. My geographic location encourages open sexclubs as well as stripclubs. The local newspaper ads go as far as advertising just how gropable the dancers at club XYZ are. The previous DA made it public knowledge that no busts will ever occur in any of the off-street sex businesses, so do what you want. It has become increasingly difficult for the traditional "stripclubs" to remain extras-free, and standard lapdance mileage has sufferred from it, but overall it creates a fairly healthy environment when the economy is good for all sides.

I'm also absolutely flabberghasted that Pryce would publish Dancer Wealth's "Extra Work" document, since it has a great message but does so from a standpoint of complete and utter ignorance. It's obvious that zero research was performed to substantiate any of his claims. He could have given the same message and value-added advice if he did so by using facts versus inventing falsified and completely fictional devices to do so. He creates the ugly, buck-toothed, alcoholic prostitute working a mid-western stripclub considering giving blowjobs to make rent and applies it to the whole, which is comedic at best... condescending at worst. His projected earnings given for extras dancers were missing zero's.. or he confused what an extras dancer gets per 8-12 minute trick versus what they get per night. It discredits any value from that point forward as it uses fictional data from lack of research.

Ignorance and close-mindedness is what generates animosity on all sides. There are good, earnest and rational arguments that can be presented, as well as value-added advice and meaningful methods to be applied across the boards. No progress, peace or understanding can ever hope to be achieved if everyone stereotypes and creates a simple fictional and lopsided basis for spreading agenda. If the agenda is good, just and right- there is no need to embellish fictional portrayals.

mr_punk
03-29-2004, 05:50 PM
I still believe in the philosophy of division between stripclubs and sexclubs.
There are customers for both- a married traveler doesn't want to "cheat", or a safe place to take a bachelor without fear of being lynched by the bride-to-be, etc.etc.sounds good to me, except for your personal philosophy.



Obviously, in that utopian world, there would likely be more sexclubs than stripclubs, but there is a DMZ between a traditional stripclub experience versus a sexclub.but how many stripclubs are traditional nowadays? outside of a few neo-burlesque shows.



You are again creating a specialized example to try and apply to the whole. I'd easily say the amount of stripclub customers that grease management's palms probably lies somewhere in the range of 1-4% of the total clientele. but it wasn't the only example i cited about danger the itself industry presents. you did read my link within my original post, didn't you?


You are forgetting how offerings at a club mold the customer base that visit/patronize a given establishment over time.i am? let's see.


The openly sexclubs in SF can only sustain maybe 3-4 non-extras dancers and allow them to make good earnings. It's because the clientele is selectively pursuing extras.but isn't SF a specialized example compared to the rest of the country? i don't think a club like MBOT or MSC (whatever happened to that place) would be welcomed (at least not without a 3 or 4 Brink's trucks) in any city outside of SF. comparing SF to the rest of the country is like comparing Washington D.C. inside-the-beltway politics to the rest of the country. it's two totally different worlds.


Sure, a lot of women come off the streets, walk up and down the stage, maybe twirl around the pole once or twice, drop on the floor, raise their legs, spread them for V-for-Victory, get up on all fours, crawl around on stage, then collect their cash... then say "I'm a dancer! I live for the stage!" It's not like there is some academy or certification for whether or not someone is a certified stripper- like ballet or whatnot. you're a bit off track here, polecat. in any case, my only point at this part of the post was that "dancers who only dance" are not the only type of sex worker in the sc industry. the industry itself attracts all types of sex workers.


I'm also absolutely flabberghasted that Pryce would publish Dancer Wealth's "Extra Work" document, since it has a great message but does so from a standpoint of complete and utter ignorance. It's obvious that zero research was performed to substantiate any of his claims.whatever the case may be, i'm sure DW got the suckers...er...clients lined up around the block for his seminar. ;D

Isis
03-29-2004, 06:14 PM
if they're looking for an instant sympathic audience. please, don't look in my direction.


have u ever been in a club during a police raid Mr. Punk ?
:nosy:

SportsWriter2
03-30-2004, 05:18 AM
Where is all this philosophical nitpicking getting you? OF COURSE you want to be sympathetic. Let her tell you what those bad girls do. Tell her that stuff is for people who care about each other, not for SALE.... Half the time you end up with a good girl who does stuff because "you care about me." Know what? I care a lot that no one else is getting her, at least not this week. :P

I think the difference between Mr P and me is that I coat my cynicism with love. Because it saves me time and money.

yoda57us
03-30-2004, 07:19 AM
I think it's obvious that the "chance" of getting extras in a club is a serious draw for many customers. Dancers, wether they do extras or not, benefit from the increased attendance that a clubs reputation will provide. Unfortunately, the increased scrutiny that may ensue from LE can cause a whole set of problems that also effect both dancers who do and dancers who don't provide extras.

What can we do about this? Nothing really.

My experience has been that the top money makers in most clubs don't usually do extras. Also, it would be a mistake to assume that extras only happen in lower class clubs or that the offers only come from less than perfect 10 types. The only completely up-front offers I have ever gotten for sex with a dancer for money have come from two gorgeous women who, at the time, were working in an upscale(sic) club in Providence.

mr_punk
03-30-2004, 06:12 PM
have u ever been in a club during a police raid Mr. Punk ?personally? only once, nothing happened to the dancers or customers. they just kicked everybody out and closed the place down for about 6 hours. it turned out the club owner and the "powers that be" had a little "administrative miscommunication" about the status of the club's liquor license. loosely translated: either someone forgot to drop off the paper bag full of money or didn't put enough money in the bag. while we're on the subject. there is another club that i go to every once in a while. it was busted by the feds not too long ago, but i wasn't there at the time.

Isis
03-30-2004, 11:41 PM
have u ever been in a club during a police raid Mr. Punk ?personally? only once, nothing happened to the dancers or customers. they just kicked everybody out and closed the place down for about 6 hours. it turned out the club owner and the "powers that be" had a little "administrative miscommunication" about the status of the club's liquor license.

??? I wasnt expecting u to say yes actually b/c of ur easy going attitude about in the club extras.

Were u at all nerved u might be arrested 4 anything when the raid occured ? Would u care much if u were or got arrested at a club? I mean how do u extras guys know there's not an undercover cop in the club ? I know a chick who got busted doing a lap in a table dance club by an undercover female officer who was posing as a dancer :o Alot of risk it seems for a short thrill :-\

mr_punk
03-31-2004, 06:27 PM
I wasnt expecting u to say yes actually b/c of ur easy going attitude about in the club extras.why? a sc is an S.O.B. . it's not Wal-mart. do you really think that, just because a club hasn't been busted, nothing goes on behind the scenes to insure that it doesn't happen? do you really think all club busts have only to do with extras? in addition, officially management may even frown upon the practice. however, unofficially that's not always the case. anyway, i'm old enough to know that extras are not the only illegal or unethical activity going on inside a sc. i don't mind shaking the industry's hand. i just make sure to count the rings on my fingers after i'm done. :mischievous:




Were u at all nerved u might be arrested 4 anything when the raid occured ?arrested for what? having a drink?



Would u care much if u were or got arrested at a club?I mean how do u extras guys know there's not an undercover cop in the club?I know a chick who got busted doing a lap in a table dance club by an undercover female officer who was posing as a dancer. Alot of risk it seems for a short thrill.ok. first of all, i don't do air dance :no:. second of all, i'm not a undercover cop and i know she isn't a undercover cop. the vice squad won't put undercover female cops in an uncontrolled environment. IOW, female cops aren't going to pose as dancers at a contact club and let a bunch of ill-mannered customers attempt to feed and finger her all night long in the hopes of making a solicitation bust. bzzzzt...sorry, it's not in the job description. in any case, they're too fat, unattractive and not flaky enough to pass for strippers ::). as far as risk? well, risk is relative in the sex industry. are extras in a sc risky? compared to say....meeting a total stranger alone (at least, you think you're alone) in a room with the intent of offering an exchange of sex for money? i don't think so. in fact, i hardly think it's worthy of comparison.

sallylou
03-31-2004, 09:41 PM
I agree with you Punk.

Luckily for me, I make really good money without having to do extras. I have seen them take place and the number one reason they will always take place is because of money. Not one dancer in a club is going to give you a blow job for free(unless you're Sporty of course...lol)

But it all comes down to money and what a person is willing to do to make it!

Isis
03-31-2004, 10:15 PM
do you really think all club busts have only to do with extras? Oh no, I know other things can cause busts.



arrested for what? having a drink?
maybe I am mistaken but I got the feeling that u didn't ever do "legal" dances,so thats I was wondering if u were worried about getting arrested.

Bridgette
04-06-2004, 06:42 AM
Isis, I have never ONCE heard of a customer being arrested for illegal acts, even though what he's doing is illegal, during a prostitution bust at a club. The johns don't get arrested. Of course punk doesn't give a shit, he knows that's the way it works. He can go about his pissy way soliciting and manipulating (according to some of his own posts) girls into giving him cheap BJs under the table, knowing full well the GIRLS are the ones taking all the risk.

SportsWriter2
04-06-2004, 07:05 AM
Luckily for me, I make really good money without having to do extras. I have seen them take place and the number one reason they will always take place is because of money. Not one dancer in a club is going to give you a blow job for free(unless you're Sporty of course...lol)


The #1 reason is money, no question about that. Even if a dancer offers you something for "free" outside the club, it's because she wants to be your favorite, and that means money, status in the club, and confidence in herself.... However, I have known softly beautiful dancers who would have made more money by NOT doing extras, but they just liked sex.

Bridgette
04-06-2004, 07:52 AM
::)

SportsWriter2
04-06-2004, 08:53 AM
Isis, I have never ONCE heard of a customer being arrested for illegal acts, even though what he's doing is illegal, during a prostitution bust at a club. The johns don't get arrested. Of course punk doesn't give a shit, he knows that's the way it works. He can go about his pissy way soliciting and manipulating (according to some of his own posts) girls into giving him cheap BJs under the table, knowing full well the GIRLS are the ones taking all the risk.


It's sad the customers never get arrested, because some SCJ's have to go trolling for street hookers to get a danger rush. That's where Johns get arrested.

Mr P and I have fun in different ways, but I would never term his way "pissy." Throwing in P/S words doesn't add much to an argument.

I always tell a dancer, "What I care about most is your reputation in this club." If they get fired, or I get bounced, or other dancers talk trash about her, life will become more difficult.

sallylou
04-06-2004, 10:23 AM
Sporty, you're always so sensitive to a dancer's well being! Glad to hear you think about her reputation first and foremost ;) ... but if a dancer is willing to give out FS or anything like that, she's not too concerned about her own reputation in the first place.
Whether a dancer likes sex has nothing to do with whether they give out extras or not...like I said before... it all comes down to what they're willing to compromise in order to make an extra buck. Now, I'm just repeating myself...
Ohhh, one more thing... are you implying you search out hookers for the danger aspect? I thought all the dancers were just throwing themselves at you? But I guess that's not as exciting as searching the street corners yourself, huh? lol ;)

Isis
04-06-2004, 11:38 AM
Isis, I have never ONCE heard of a customer being arrested for illegal acts, even though what he's doing is illegal, during a prostitution bust at a club. .

I think ur right for the most part but didn't some customers get arrested in Tampa a few years ago when that new law went into effect ? however thats the only place I ever heard of customers getting paddywagoned as well as dancers but it wasnt for hooking it was distance laws
I think if there was more risk 4 the customers they might be more understanding of why lots of dancers just dance.

Setting personal morals/limits aside....
( imo, alot of men just dont see sex as emotional like many women do) they might just understand the concept of not wanting to risk losing child custody or job or perm. criminal record- etc etc. if they actually had to face those risks more often.

SportsWriter2
04-06-2004, 11:58 AM
Ohhh, one more thing... are you implying you search out hookers for the danger aspect? I thought all the dancers were just throwing themselves at you? But I guess that's not as exciting as searching the street corners yourself, huh? lol ;)


Sallylou, I don't need the danger rush, thank goodness, so I don't search the street corners.

Dancers don't throw themselves at guys. But if you look/act respectful and ask dancers what they really want, you'll get more than the other guys.

I would never want FS in a club. I prefer good girls who are very selective and have limits. My favorites average four sex partners lifetime.

Isis
04-06-2004, 01:19 PM
Of course punk doesn't give a shit, he knows that's the way it works. He can go about his pissy way soliciting and manipulating (according to some of his own posts) girls into giving him cheap BJs under the table, knowing full well the GIRLS are the ones taking all the risk.


Is this really the truth about u Mr P ?

Hmmm.... Do any of u other guys admit to trying to manipulate dancers into extras in or out of the club ? if so how often do u succeed ?

sallylou
04-06-2004, 02:27 PM
Ohhh, one more thing... are you implying you search out hookers for the danger aspect? I thought all the dancers were just throwing themselves at you? But I guess that's not as exciting as searching the street corners yourself, huh? lol ;)


Sallylou, I don't need the danger rush, thank goodness, so I don't search the street corners.

Dancers don't throw themselves at guys. But if you look/act respectful and ask dancers what they really want, you'll get more than the other guys.

I would never want FS in a club. I prefer good girls who are very selective and have limits. My favorites average four sex partners lifetime.



Oh Sporty... You know I was just joking with ya! :-* heehee

FBR
04-06-2004, 03:04 PM
Hmmm.... Do any of u other guys admit to trying to manipulate dancers into extras in or out of the club ? if so how often do u succeed ?


Isis, Ive had outside the club activities with three dancers. In all three cases, they approached me. Thats not to say I wouldnt have eventually been the one doing the asking..they just beat me to the punch.

About 18 months ago, Miss J and I were talking about it (mostly joking). She threw out a goofy dollar amount..like a million dollars..which we both laughed at. A few months ago the figure dropped to $10,000. I laughed but she didnt. Now Im beginning to wonder if there really is a realistic price point. Guess we'll see if she brings it up again.

FBR

velvet
04-06-2004, 10:30 PM
customers always go when the mons venus in tampa gets raided. be that a few years ago or 10 years ago. the new mayor (female!) has said she will not enforce the 6 foot rule. however some clubs in tampa still get busted for prostituion, in that case ladies only go...because they solicted a cop, they wouldnt know what guys are buying it

maui
04-06-2004, 11:38 PM
Isis, I have never ONCE heard of a customer being arrested for illegal acts, even though what he's doing is illegal, during a prostitution bust at a club. The johns don't get arrested.

Concur in Honolulu. Was in one of my favorite clubs at the bar when it was raided. The polizei later released us (and the guys in back getting private shows) after they segregated all the girls in the dressing room. They did not arrest all the girls, just the ones they had warrants for.
My tax dollars at work...Oh yeah, its election year, things should heat up again. ???

mr_punk
04-07-2004, 06:39 PM
maybe I am mistaken but I got the feeling that u didn't ever do "legal" dances,so thats I was wondering if u were worried about getting arrested.i've bought plenty of "legal" dances in the past. however, i don't spent a lot of money on average dances. for example, take a two way contact club. where you can touch everything, but the kitty. is it a high mileage dance? very high, compared to an air dance. still, i consider the mileage to be average by the club's standard. for me, the mileage has to be higher than the club's standard. if that's the case, i'll continue to spend. if not, i won't buy more dances. have you heard of the phrase "YMMV"? well, i'm a YMMV (your money may vary) customer. it's simple formula, really. there will be a large discrepancy between the amounts of money different dancers will make from me and the amount of money recieved is directly proportional to the amount of mileage i recieve.




Is this really the truth about u Mr P ? Hmmm.... Do any of u other guys admit to trying to manipulate dancers into extras in or out of the club ? if so how often do u succeed ?oh, don't pay any mind to bridgette, isis. you know, she's not so bad once you get to know her. once you past the rabid, ball-breaking, shrewish exterior. you'll find that deep down inside, she really has the heart of a barracuda ::). manipulation? in a sc? nooooooo, that almost never happens ::). anyway, manipulation is such an unseemly word. i prefer to think of it as good salesmanship. ;D

seriously, there really isn't that much manipulation. when seeking mileage or extras, IMO ,i don't think it really matters exactly what the guy says. it's more important to present the right image while appearing to be polite and without being crude.

futhermore, most of the work is done during the interview process. basically, you're just separating the players from the pretenders, but without spending a lot of upfront money to find out, who wants to earn your money. most customers (suckers) do the exact opposite without even bothering to find out if she's a player or a pretender. personally, i'd rather generously reward the more accommodating dancers on the back end of the deal and not the front.

mr_punk
04-07-2004, 07:05 PM
I think if there was more risk 4 the customers they might be more understanding of why lots of dancers just dance. Setting personal morals/limits aside....( imo, alot of men just dont see sex as emotional like many women do) they might just understand the concept of not wanting to risk losing child custody or job or perm. criminal record- etc etc. if they actually had to face those risks more often.



Isis, I have never ONCE heard of a customer being arrested for illegal acts, even though what he's doing is illegal, during a prostitution bust at a club. The johns don't get arrested. Of course punk doesn't give a shit, he knows that's the way it works. He can go about his pissy way soliciting and manipulating (according to some of his own posts) girls into giving him cheap BJs under the table, knowing full well the GIRLS are the ones taking all the risk.don't give a shit? don't understand the concept of risk? moi? poor kids. i did say that risk is relative in the sex industry and there are risker activities than extras in a sc. let me tell you young whippersnappers about the good old days of whoremongering. let's see, back in those days. i could get a pretty mean BBBJ for the price of a freshly killed brontosaurus and there was no WWW with unlimited dial-up, either. why, in my day.......

for instance, if someone was attending a convention or a business meeting in another state (and he didn't have any recommendations) and he wanted to get some on the side. he had to take some risks:

option #1

i suppose, he could go the streetwalker route. however, there is a difference between taking a stupendously absurd risk and a calculated risk. so, the streetwalker is out, but you never know with some guys...cough..hugh..cough..grant..cough.


option 2#

most large cities often have free weekly newspapers, magazines and such. in those days, most escorts and agencies would often advertise their services in print media. so, let's say he finds an ad and the description sounds good and she's conveniently located in his area. he sets up an incall appointment. he goes to the location, knocks on the door and walks inside. sounds simple enough. i mean, what could possibly happen?

A) the woman could fit the description of the ad and everything goes according to plan. ;D
B) the woman could be a three-hundred pound water buffalo who won't take no for an answer. :medusa:
C) the..err..woman could be an three-hundred pound transvestite with the upper body strength
of an NFL lineman who won't take no for an answer. :scared:
D) the woman's driver/suitcase pimp/unemployed musician could be in the next room (or in the closet) with a baseball bat. :faint:
E) you might discover that you are "missing" some items after the appointment.
F) the woman may have forgotten "something in her car". the next sound you hear is the screeching of tires. :eek:
G)the woman could be an undercover cop (who's wired) with the whole vice squad next door. :yikes:
H) etc,etc,etc

option #3

escorts often worked conventions, tourist hotels and bars and except for the fact that you actually see the goods beforehand. D thur H still applies.

in closing, the fact that dancers take risks in the sc, really doesn't bother me in the least. get a life...they are not the only people in the sex industry who take risks. so what..i've taken more risk or at least just as much risk, whoremongering over the years. well, cry me a river...if i believed that strippers actually took larger risks than myself or others, perhaps i would be more sympathic. if i sound callous or cruel....good. that's just the impression i want to make. it's no joke. the stakes can be very high and the repercussions can be devastating and just as cruel. however, i accepted the risks and i minimize them as much as possible. i know the potential risks and inherent consequences the industry carries. i just don't whine about it.

polecat
04-07-2004, 07:53 PM
in closing, the fact that dancers take risks in the sc, really doesn't bother me in the least. get a life...they are not the only people in the sex industry who take risks. so what..i've taken more risk or at least just as much risk, whoremongering over the years. well, cry me a river...if i believed that strippers actually took larger risks than myself or others, perhaps i would be more sympathic.

I think Bridgette pretty much nailed it, actually.

You identify that strippers ARE indeed taking more of a risk than yourself in your pursuit of extras since "johns" in clubs aren't busted or suffer repercussions from their actions that are equally illegal. Combined with the recitation of the customer risks involved with street walkers and escorts (which are all correct), show's it's just a simple case of "me-me-me, fuck them" syndrome.. so your "being more sympathetic" is in total conflict. You choose your method of getting your ya-ya's simply because it places all the risk on her, and next to zero on yourself. This is a self-fulfilling philosophy leading to a lifelong pay-for-play result, by the way.

The hypocrisy only comes along when non-extras dancers who have issues with your lifestyle and the possible risks it involves to them as non-participants(wrongfully busted, out of work from club closure, tougher job as more "johns" versus regular customers visit, etc.etc.) only has a retort of "change clubs" or "move"... well, the door swings both ways but selfishness doesn't allow it to be seen. The JOHN should also recognize his option to take his own advice and move to Nevada to visit brothels (zero customer risk) or if the stripclub motif is your favored arena, move to SF (also zero dancer/customer risk of busts) or overseas. Of course, these kinds of suggestions that mirror their own advice previously towards dancers suddenly have a line of *valid* excuses to go along with them.

LauraLove
04-07-2004, 08:56 PM
for example, take a two way contact club. where you can touch everything, but the kitty. is it a high mileage dance? very high, compared to an air dance. still, i consider the mileage to be average by the club's standard. for me, the mileage has to be higher than the club's standard. if that's the case, i'll continue to spend. if not, i won't buy more dances.

Basicaly you are saying that unless the dancer is willing to go beyond what the club allows ,you stop buying dances.

In essence you punish those who play by the rules and reward only those who put themselves and others at risk.

Wow you are a real catch- not !

mr_punk
04-07-2004, 09:11 PM
In essence you punish those who play by the rules and reward only those who put themselves and others at risk.punish? am i really? so, if i prefer to buy chunky peanut butter. i'm punishing the smooth peanut butter buy not buying it? you gotta be kidding.



Basicaly you are saying that unless the dancer is willing to go beyond what the club allows ,you stop buying dances.DUH!



Wow you are a real catch- not !and you are a master of the obvious.

polecat
04-07-2004, 09:40 PM
and??? was there something to actually nail? you know, i never disagreed with that point, polecat. i thought i made that clear. i guess not.
The only thing you have made clear is that you are metaphorically saying "cry me a river" to imposed dancer risk by using faulty logic.

Just because you are a professional bomb-defuser by day doesn't give you license to tell strippers to sit down and shut-up when you carry a loaded weapon with no safety in your raincoat. You're trying to shovel off risks completely unrelated to dancers. Escorts and streetwalkers have shared risk for both john and prostitute, extras strippers have risks only for the dancer and little to none for the john. But you're trying to use a the philosophy of the risks of pursuing escorts/streetwalkers to somehow translate into an entitled requirement for dancers to take risks themselves solely from your external and unrelated pursuits. It doesn't work.


which explains why, you're off track again, polecat. i glad you think the risks i cited are correct because i actually play in that league. it isn't theory. the risks are very real. however, if i wasn't willing to personally accept the risk then i would quit.
I'd like to know how I'm "off track".. my declaration is no matter how "valiant" you try to pedestalize your "league" of paying for sex, risks YOU decide to take outside of stripclubs have absolutely no credit or entitlement INSIDE the stripclubs. It's a no-risk model for the customer, which you've more than admitted yourself... then continue to backpedal with schpeel such as:


if i believed that strippers actually took larger risks than myself or others, perhaps i would be more sympathic.



you really haven't been here that long, polecat. so, i'll cut you some slack.
Oh gee, will you? Thanks a lot pal! I'm in utter debt to your kind and forgiving ways.. :sarcastic:



if you had been reading this board for awhile. you would know that ,for me, a sc is just one option. i never considered it the only game in town. i like a more diverse portfolio. if sc totally shut down overnight. i wouldn't exactly be left out in the cold.
Never assumed or hinted that stripclubs were your only option. I'd figure for a "lifer-payer" trick, you'd run the full gamut in search of value/level of service.



or get out of the sex industry. it's can be a slimy business on many different levels. i thought i made that clear in my previous posts.
What you didn't make clear is you have the same options. Move to where there is no dancer risk, where it is legal (or for all purposes legal by public agreed lack of enforcement) or similar.. or get out of the "john" hobby.

The door swings both ways. If you expect your ideals to be embraced, then all of the above should be recognized as "viable" alternatives as well.



well, that's good advice for some guy (like yourself) who only goes to sc. however, i'm not that guy. i do take risks and i can accept them. sorry, but you're barking up the wrong tree. i actually walk the talk.
I don't see any walking the talk, just a scared, frightened little man that refuses to put accountability anywhere except upon the women that service him.

Waking the Talk would involve only obligating yourself to equal-risk scenarios, rather than taking a pansy-ass method of finding whichever ways assauge all risk off onto someone else. The reasoning given mirrors the exact same reasoning bounced right back at you (move, relocate, quit the biz/hobby), but for some odd reason, the one deflected at dancers is the only "valid" one.

You are trying to displace all that is "wrong" with the stripclub model totally on the risks involved with a customer seeing escorts or street walkers. How the FUCK is a stripper sharing accountability with escorts and street walkers? It's a twisted concept.

If you want to get your thrills trying to manipulate young and impressionable young dancers to play with your joystick, have at it. Just don't try to offset the risks you've selfishly placed the dancer under by citing what escorts or prostitutes you've seen in the more "proper" shared risk scenario. Shared risk is expected and doesn't earn you anything with unrelated or different individuals.

LauraLove
04-07-2004, 09:57 PM
Basicaly you are saying that unless the dancer is willing to go beyond what the club allows ,you stop buying dances.

DUH!





you are like a robot :cold: Zero humanity

LauraLove
04-07-2004, 10:06 PM
if they want to be "legal" and don't want to be exposed to risk then get out of the industry.

so you are saying that if they aren't willing to brake the law then the should get out of dancing- that's bullshit :crackup:
Maybe you should stay away from stripclubs unless you are willing to play within the legal limits while inside :bullwhip:

mr_punk
04-07-2004, 10:37 PM
so you are saying that if they aren't willing to brake the law then the should get out of dancing- that's bullshitdid you actually read this whole thread? it doesn't seem like it. you see, i'm looking at the big picture and you seem to be looking at the small picture. my whole point is that the industry as a whole (not just the dancers) is willing to put dancers at risk with their slimey behavior. and yet, dancers are willing to accept those risks except when it becomes inconvenient and then they cry "foul". that's fine,if they want to do that. however, any veteran stripper should have a pretty good idea how slimy the industry can be and yet i see very few other complaints...i wonder why. ::)


Maybe you should stay away from stripclubs unless you are willing to play within the legal limits while insideand perhaps you should start back at the beginning of this thread.

mr_punk
04-08-2004, 12:03 AM
The only thing you have made clear is that you are metaphorically saying "cry me a river" to imposed dancer risk by using faulty logic.i'm also including the risk that is also imposed by the industry itself. you seem to keep forgetting that part.



But you're trying to use a the philosophy of the risks of pursuing escorts/streetwalkers to somehow translate into an entitled requirement for dancers to take risks themselves solely from your external and unrelated pursuits. It doesn't work.and you're using the philosphy that somehow the industry itself would be as clean as the driven snow and it would be as respected as any other fortune 500 company, with no risk at all to the dancer. if only extras would not occur. do you really think that would be the case? i don't think, so.



I'd like to know how I'm "off track".. my declaration is no matter how "valiant" you try to pedestalize your "league" of paying for sex, risks YOU decide to take outside of stripclubs have absolutely no credit or entitlement INSIDE the stripclubs. It's a no-risk model for the customer, which you've more than admitted yourself... then continue to backpedal with schpeel such as:once again, you're off track. you're assuming that i'm trying to backpedal. bzzzzt...sorry. you see, i'm not making a special exception for sc. feel free to do so if you wish. to me, it's all one big sex industry and they're all sex workers and they all take risk. some just take more than others. if you can't hack it, don't sign up.



I don&#039;t see any walking the talk, just a scared, frightened little man that refuses to put accountability anywhere except upon the women that service him. <snicker> ;Dpolecat, messageboard psychologist. sorry, doc but we can&#039;t use your services. we alreaqdy have one shrink on this board.


Never assumed or hinted that stripclubs were your only option. I&#039;d figure for a "lifer-payer" trick, you&#039;d run the full gamut in search of value/level of service. <snicker> hey, some "lifer payer" might be your father. bah-duh-dum....rimshot ;D we can trade bon mots all day if you like. i got a million of them ;D


What you didn&#039;t make clear is you have the same options. Move to where there is no dancer risk, where it is legal (or for all purposes legal by public agreed lack of enforcement) or similar.. or get out of the "john" hobby.
The door swings both ways. If you expect your ideals to be embraced, then all of the above should be recognized as "viable" alternatives as well.first of all. unlike yourself, i don&#039;t really expect my ideas to be embraced. the most i expect is the opinionated exchange of ideas. secondly, i think it&#039;s obvious, that i don&#039;t have a problem with risk. you see, your option would be viable for someone who is risk intolerant. OTOH, I&#039;m not. i&#039;m can operate just fine the way things are now. OTOH, it seems you&#039;re not happy with the status quo. sounds like a personal problem to me.


Waking the Talk would involve only obligating yourself to equal-risk scenarios, rather than taking a pansy-ass method of finding whichever ways assauge all risk off onto someone else. and what would you know about walking the talk? you&#039;re just a theorist, right? ::) in any case, you&#039;re assuming that risk is always equal in the sex industry. do you really think that is the case? if you did actually walk the talk, you would know better than that.


You are trying to displace all that is "wrong" with the stripclub model totally on the risks involved with a customer seeing escorts or street walkers. How the FUCK is a stripper sharing accountability with escorts and street walkers? It&#039;s a twisted concept.see above.


If you want to get your thrills trying to manipulate young and impressionable young dancers to play with your joystick, have at it. Just don&#039;t try to offset the risks you&#039;ve selfishly placed the dancer under by citing what escorts or prostitutes you&#039;ve seen in the more "proper" shared risk scenario. Shared risk is expected and doesn&#039;t earn you anything with unrelated or different individuals.oh, i get it...[watch me shrink the shrink ;)] you&#039;re a white knight. the poor, defenseless, drug addled and sexually abused stripper is always being manipulated by the big bad man. don&#039;t you think that&#039;s a bit condesending towards strippers? i mean, you being a sensitive male and all. in any case, as i stated before do you really think risk is equally shared in the sex industry? put on your thinking cap and think hard, polecat. make me embrace your ideas.

polecat
04-08-2004, 01:08 AM
I honestly had assumed you&#039;d reply to my post and address the issues given, rather than senseless and meaningless drivel of ignoring what&#039;s given and inventing "roll-your-own" euphanisms to displace the topic. I am kinda dissapointed... but not surprised.


i&#039;m also including the risk that is also imposed by the industry itself. you seem to keep forgetting that part.
You have yet to explain how a stripper in a stripclub assumes or is accountable for the risks of the global sex industry. Your argument is solely founded on trying to create some mythological "risk" that a traditional exotic dancer/stripper has magically gotten involved in. You are failing to take responsibility for your own actions, which is precisely the problem.

You keep just baggering this clueless "the industry itself" which somehow equates: escort = prostitute = stripper = streetwalker. That&#039;s the whole point- that chain of mislogic you&#039;ve created is more like "which one doesn&#039;t belong"..


and you&#039;re using the philosphy that somehow the industry itself would be as clean as the driven snow and it would be as respected as any other fortune 500 company, with no risk at all to the dancer. if only extras would not occur. do you really think that would be the case? i don&#039;t think, so.
So, you think that be removing ALL illegal activity from the clubs, they would be often busted for illegal activity? :boggled:


once again, you&#039;re off track. you&#039;re assuming that i&#039;m trying to backpedal. bzzzzt...sorry. you see, i&#039;m not making a special exception for sc. feel free to do so if you wish. to me, it&#039;s all one big sex industry and they&#039;re all sex workers and they all take risk. some just take more than others. if you can&#039;t hack it, don&#039;t sign up.
Thank you.. That is the core of your argument, and that&#039;s also the point of disagreement.

If it was all one, big sex industry- then escorts, prostitutes and streetwalkers could file taxes for their given professions and claim worker&#039;s comp, social security and other benefits for their line of work. Exotic dancers/strippers can, escorts/prostitutes cannot. See the difference? It&#039;s called legality. The only two places where recognized prostitutes and sex providers can operate legally (or legally by lack of enforcement) are Nevada and San Francisco. Everywhere else, exotic dancer/stripper is recognized as a legal profession, given imposed local/regional rules.

Your arguments can only be founded if prostitution becomes country-wide decriminalized/legalized, or in the two given regions. Everywhere else, they are null and void.



<snicker> polecat, messageboard psychologist. sorry, doc but we can&#039;t use your services. we alreaqdy have one shrink on this board.
Whatever it takes to justify your stance to yourself, I&#039;m game with. If you want to envision me wearing a tu-tu; if it makes you feel better, feel free. I&#039;m easy.


<snicker> hey, some "lifer payer" might be your father. bah-duh-dum....rimshot ;D we can trade bon mots all day if you like. i got a million of them
Really? I&#039;d like to see one sometime. I don&#039;t consider a reversed gender "Yo momma!" to be acceptable though and would prefer something with a little bit more wit or thought, if that&#039;s possible.


first of all. unlike yourself, i don&#039;t really expect my ideas to be embraced. the most i expect is the opinionated exchange of ideas.
That&#039;s the biggest load of horseshit I&#039;ve heard all day. And you&#039;re also wrong about "unlike yourself", but carry on.. I&#039;m sure you think you&#039;re on a roll.


secondly, i think it&#039;s obvious, that i don&#039;t have a problem with risk.
If you say that to yourself enough times, you might even start to believe it. If you didn&#039;t have a problem with risk, you&#039;d stick to escorts where there is risk... versus the easy, risk-free target of strippers. Your actions don&#039;t match your words, I&#039;m afraid.


you see, your option would be viable for someone who is risk intolerant. OTOH, I&#039;m not. i&#039;m can operate just fine the way things are now. OTOH, it seems you&#039;re not happy with the status quo. sounds like a personal problem to me.
Well, I&#039;m sure glad you have me all figured out. Especially when you have to build a completely mythical scenario in order to produce such an unsubstantiated claim.

Everything you&#039;ve shared so far has concluded that you ARE risk intolerant since you prefer to target/manipulate strippers for sex services due to the lack of risk placed upon yourself. If you were this shining pinnacle of courage and "risk taker", you&#039;d stick specifically with escorts and street walkers. See how funny it sounds when "I&#039;m a coolio risk taker! See me flex!" followed by "I&#039;m going to try and push dancers for extras because if we get busted, I&#039;m innocent! WEEE!"


and what would you know about walking the talk? you&#039;re just a theorist, right? ::) in any case, you&#039;re assuming that risk is always equal in the sex industry. do you really think that is the case? if you did actually walk the talk, you would know better than that.
Uhm.. Excuse me.. how come three paragraphs ago you stated you look at the sex industry as one big, giant, equal risk thing, then realize how absolutely retarded that is and now point that as being my standpoint?

I made it pretty clear- risk is NOT always equal in the sex industry. It&#039;s been the entire founding point of all my replies. If this is your argument "style" (or should I say incompetence) there really isn&#039;t much point in continuing. I can easily just put a Pee Wee Herman movie in and just put a "I KNOW YOU ARE, BUT WHAT AM I?" scene on repeat.

Clearly, and for the last time- the risk factor is enormously wide and varied in the sex industry. There is no legal "risk" factor for a non-extras stripper, but there are threats to her income, livelihood and career even if she isn&#039;t directly involved or participating. We&#039;ve already been through this.


oh, i get it...[watch me shrink the shrink you&#039;re a white knight. the poor, defenseless, drug addled and sexually abused stripper is always being manipulated by the big bad man. don&#039;t you think that&#039;s a bit condesending towards strippers?
Please provide a quote where this stance was even hinted at. Oh, and while your pulling things out of your ass, how about a nice faery tale. Put the creativity to some good use- you might have a marketable skill.

Having to self-declare "victories" only illustrates one thing, I&#039;m afraid.


i mean, you being a sensitive male and all. in any case, as i stated before do you really think risk is equally shared in the sex industry? put on your thinking cap and think hard, polecat. make me embrace your ideas.
See above. I&#039;m not the one trying to equate risk factor for a prostitute as being equivalent to risk factor for an exotic dancer/stripper.

mr_punk
04-08-2004, 02:52 AM
I honestly had assumed you&#039;d reply to my post and address the issues given, rather than senseless and meaningless drivel of ignoring what&#039;s given and inventing "roll-your-own" euphanisms to displace the topic. I am kinda dissapointed... but not surprised.awww....i dissappointed you. it&#039;s bad to dissappoint the polecat.



You have yet to explain how a stripper in a stripclub assumes or is accountable for the risks of the global sex industry. the global sex industry. Your argument is solely founded on trying to create some mythological "risk" that a traditional exotic dancer/stripper has magically gotten involved in. You are failing to take responsibility for your own actions, which is precisely the problem.the global sex industry???? where did that come from????? not from me. no, the problem is that you keep reaching wild conclusions based on wild inferences of your own creation. not that i&#039;m surprised, that&#039;s what a theorist does.



You keep just baggering this clueless "the industry itself" which somehow equates: escort = prostitute = stripper = streetwalker. That&#039;s the whole point- that chain of mislogic you&#039;ve created is more like "which one doesn&#039;t belong"..case in point. you reached that conclusion, not me. i stated that it&#039;s all one big sex industry and they&#039;re all sex workers. however, i never stated that i didn&#039;t make a distinction between the occupations. that&#039;s your inference, not mine. don&#039;t blame me for a theory of your own creation.



So, you think that be removing ALL illegal activity from the clubs, they would be often busted for illegal activity? uhhhh...look again at my statement, polecat. do you see the word "ALL" in my statement or are you doing that crazy inference thing again?


Thank you.. That is the core of your argument, and that&#039;s also the point of disagreement.no, thank you. it looks like you actually stopped theorizing what i actually meant for a change.


The only two places where recognized prostitutes and sex providers can operate legally (or legally by lack of enforcement) are Nevada and San Francisco. it&#039;s looks like you changed professions...now, you&#039;re Clarence Darrow?i don&#039;t know about that. i guess you never heard of a city named Houston. they seem to have that legally by lack of enforcement thing also. in any case, the only place where prostitution is actually legal is nevada.


Your arguments can only be founded if prostitution becomes country-wide decriminalized/legalized, or in the two given regions. Everywhere else, they are null and void.what argument? oh, you&#039;re still under the assumption that i don&#039;t make any distinction betweeen the occupations. whose fault is that? are you willing to take responsibility for your errors, polecat? ::)


Whatever it takes to justify your stance to yourself, I&#039;m game with. If you want to envision me wearing a tu-tu; if it makes you feel better, feel free. I&#039;m easy.you in a tu-tu? don&#039;t be ridiculous. you would probably look much better in a boa.


Really? I&#039;d like to see one sometime. I don&#039;t consider a reversed gender "Yo momma!" to be acceptable though and would prefer something with a little bit more wit or thought, if that&#039;s possible.<sigh>everyone is a critic nowadays.


That&#039;s the biggest load of horseshit I&#039;ve heard all day. And you&#039;re also wrong about "unlike yourself", but carry on.. I&#039;m sure you think you&#039;re on a roll.
oh no, you&#039;re the one who&#039;s on a roll. ::)


If you say that to yourself enough times, you might even start to believe it. If you didn&#039;t have a problem with risk, you&#039;d stick to escorts where there is risk... versus the easy, risk-free target of strippers. Your actions don&#039;t match your words, I&#039;m afraid.bwhahwhwh...you&#039;re right. i shouldn&#039;t continue to do both because polecat thinks i shouldn&#039;t. you gotta be kidding me.


Everything you&#039;ve shared so far has concluded that you ARE risk intolerant since you prefer to target/manipulate strippers for sex services due to the lack of risk placed upon yourself. oh, i have no doubt that YOU reached that conclusion. it appears, you&#039;ve been reaching your own conclusions without any help from my statements all along, PC.


If you were this shining pinnacle of courage and "risk taker", you&#039;d stick specifically with escorts and street walkers.bwhahahhah...i have seen the errors of my ways. polecat has reached the conclusion and i obey....that&#039;s funny


I made it pretty clear- risk is NOT always equal in the sex industry. It&#039;s been the entire founding point of all my replies.


Clearly, and for the last time- the risk factor is enormously wide and varied in the sex industry.i agree. i never stated otherwise. however, i made the exact same point much earlier than you did, but i guess you were too busy inferring what i meant. here&#039;s a replay in case you missed it:



that&#039;s good advice for a guy who doesn&#039;t believe that escorts take more risk than the customer. however, i&#039;m not that guy. you see, i never stated that an escorts risk was equal to mine. it isn&#039;t (it&#039;s much higher). just as i don&#039;t believe that a stripper&#039;s risk is equal to an escort or my risk for that matter. of course, you could have asked me what i meant by that statement and i would have explained it to you. however, i guess it really didn&#039;t matter because you were to busy inferring what i actually meant.


There is no legal "risk" factor for a non-extras stripper, but there are threats to her income, livelihood and career even if she isn&#039;t directly involved or participating. We&#039;ve already been through this. no, you&#039;ve been through it...... like you&#039;re having a conversation with yourself.


Please provide a quote where this stance was even hinted at. Oh, and while your pulling things out of your ass, how about a nice faery tale. Put the creativity to some good use- you might have a marketable skill.like a bouncer..LOL....jesus, polecat lighten up. i took you armchair psychobabble with a sense of humor. ;D


See above. I&#039;m not the one trying to equate risk factor for a prostitute as being equivalent to risk factor for an exotic dancer/stripper. ;D....i did no such thing. that was your assumption, remember?

polecat
04-08-2004, 03:10 AM
Well, I can see this is about as productive as dealing with a 14-year old child... which is kind of what I expected going into this.

But please mr_punk- if you DO actually want to discuss the topic at hand, I&#039;m game. Just be sure to inform me when you&#039;re feeling up to the challenge.

It&#039;s futile to continue if you&#039;re simply going to deny every statement forcing re-quoting your exact statement of otherwise. (i.e. too stupid to lay claim to "removing extras" equating to "removing ALL illegal activities", etc.etc.)

It&#039;s also futile when one party is too busy making wrongful assumptions and more baseless, and juvenile grandstanding ("like a bouncer LOL!", etc.etc.).

When you&#039;re ready to actually carry on a debate like an adult, with maturity, and actually read your own prior posts rather than deny every past statement you&#039;ve made once it&#039;s pointed out to you, yell.

I wish you fun and good hunting in your paid-sex world. Toodles.

mr_punk
04-08-2004, 03:39 AM
Well, I can see this is about as productive as dealing with a 14-year old child... which is kind of what I expected going into this.aww...i don&#039;t nod my head approvingly and become cooperative and you pick up your ball and leave....ok. as i stated before, if you&#039;re looking for productivity in a messageboard is the wrong place. i sure you&#039;ve realized that by now. since nothing gets past you. ::)


But please mr_punk- if you DO actually want to discuss the topic at hand, I&#039;m game. Just be sure to inform me when you&#039;re feeling up to the challenge.you do know that is the lowest form of argument. you might as well say "i&#039;m right and you&#039;re wrong".


It&#039;s futile to continue if you&#039;re simply going to deny every statement forcing re-quoting your exact statement of otherwise. (i.e. too stupid to lay claim to "removing extras" equating to "removing ALL illegal activities", etc.etc.)then re-quote my posts or don&#039;t. the choice is yours. however, don&#039;t blame me because i&#039;m not following your plan according to your theory. remember, you made the inference of "ALL illegal activities". i was being very specific. sorry, it&#039;s your fault if you ASSUMED that i was being general. a simple question would have cleared things up, even a 14 y.o. knows that.


It&#039;s also futile when one party is too busy making wrongful assumptions and more baseless, and juvenile grandstanding ("like a bouncer LOL!", etc.etc.). oh yes, one party is making wrongful assumptions. however, i&#039;m sure it&#039;s not the polecat. ::)



When you&#039;re ready to actually carry on a debate like an adult, with maturity, and actually read your own prior posts rather than deny every past statement you&#039;ve made once it&#039;s pointed out to you, yell.that&#039;s rich. now, i&#039;m suffering from memory loss. well, the posts are here on the page, polecat. as you can see we actually agreeded on a few points. i can see you never bothered to take responsibility for your misguided assumptions ::). in any case, if you don&#039;t like the responses you&#039;re recieving. go somewhere where people will embrace your ideas more readily. the choice is yours.


I wish you fun and good hunting in your paid-sex world. Toodles.thank you, i always have fun manipulating young impressionable strippers ;D........and don&#039;t let the door knob hit you on the way out....buh bye.

Bridgette
04-08-2004, 04:49 AM
Guys, punk has no logic. He backtracks, contradicts and even changes things he said earlier when someone points out his own contradictions, then tries to claim he didn&#039;t say that. LOL He&#039;ll never ever ever agree with anything anyone says unless it&#039;s something along the lines of &#039;EXTRAS, YES!&#039; Its like trying to debate with a two-year-old, you can put out all the logic and facts in the world, and he&#039;ll just come back with little more than "I&#039;m right you&#039;re wrong." Perhaps somemore of you are seeing the massive amount of bullshit he is full of, with which I got bored a while ago. He reminds me of dancersbf, only colder. Ignore the :troll: and he&#039;ll find another bridge under which to slither.

Moneywise
04-08-2004, 05:51 AM
Can&#039;t we all just get along? ???

mr_punk
04-08-2004, 08:01 AM
Guys, punk has no logic. He backtracks, contradicts and even changes things he said earlier when someone points out his own contradictions, then tries to claim he didn&#039;t say that.well, i don&#039;t see you pointing out any contradictions. or are you just too tired to post quotes like PC?


Its like trying to debate with a two-year-old, you can put out all the logic and facts in the world, and he&#039;ll just come back with little more than "I&#039;m right you&#039;re wrong."

Ignore the :troll: and he&#039;ll find another bridge under which to slither.nice..but isn&#039;t that nothing more than saying..."I&#039;m right you&#039;re wrong."? ;D

anyway, bridgette here&#039;s a recap just for you, sweetie.

POLECAT&#039;S VIEW:
*dancers take all the risk in a sc. customers take zero risk. the risk is unequally shared.

i never disagreed with this point.

*risk is unequally shared in the sex industry

i agree also.

PC CONCLUSION: if a customer wants mileage. he has to share some risk just like the dancer.

MY VIEW:
*extras aren&#039;t the the only risk present in a sc to dancers and yet they still work in the industry. in short, extras aren&#039;t the only illegal activity in a sc. which is why PC refused to touch that question with a ten foot pole. you know what i&#039;m talking about right, Mistress Bridgette? ;D

*risk is unequally shared in the sex industry.

MY OPINION OF POLECAT&#039;S CONCLUSION? pollyannish and naive and not very realistic. the risks have never been equal. i don&#039;t care if the risk is low, high or none. someone is going to come out behind or ahead in terms of risk. if polecat wants to make a special exemption for strippers. he has every right to do so. however, don&#039;t expect me to do the same. i just take advantage of the system in place. he can cry all day long about how unfair it is for the poor defenseless stripper. that&#039;s his right. however, he&#039;s sorely mistaken if he thinks i&#039;m not going to shed any tears for strippers because they are risk intolerant.

sander8son
04-08-2004, 09:04 AM
ok, ive really stopped reading this thread. for a like the past 15 to the last 8 posts ive only read the quotes that punk quotes and his replies. from the last 8 on, i just skipped completely. basically, because i agreed with him earlier on.

it seems some think that he is forcing these girls to perform extras. i really really dont think thats the case. IF THEY WANT TO MAKE HIS MONEY THEY HAVE TO OUTPERFORM THE COMPETITION(perform extras), but they can just as easily not take his money. nobody is forcing these girls to do anything they dont want to. if they dont want his money, they can not dance for him and focus their attention elsewhere.

what punk is trying to say is that the job itself(as does any action in life) has inherrant risks. those who are more risk averse, can chose not to perform extras. however, those who do will recieve his share of business. increased risk = increased potential profit/loss. decreceased risk = decreased potential profit/loss. so those who perform extras assume the risk inherrant in doing so, for the higher potential profits.

therefor, there is no reason for him to feal remorseful to those who perform extras because THEY have accepted the risk. sure he could feel pity. but does everyone feel pitty for everyone who has taken on much risk and come out behind? NO. if its someone close to you, you may. but if you hear about some guy on the news who cashed out his 401-k and put it all on 00 at the roullette table and lost it all, you wouldn&#039;t care. should the casino not let people place bets because they are risky? ofcorse not. do they feal bad when people lose? NO!

if they were forcing people to gamble at gunpoint or if punk was forcing girls to do extras at gunpoint, thats a different story....but you know what, they&#039;re not.

Katrine
04-08-2004, 11:40 AM
The risk is ALWAYS higher for a woman engaging in multiple sexual acts with multiple customers all the day because we are far more likely to catch diseases that will render us infertile or even kill us. Protecting ourselves does not eradicate the risk. It is dangerous work, like repairing mines or rebuilding Iraq. We have the wombs. This is the highest risk of them all, and the predominant reason why sex work is stigmatized by most women, otherwise every pretty girl would go into sex work and the human species would not survive.

Wow, that was a slippery slope into hell if I&#039;ve ever stated, but you see my point....

Stripping lowers that risk, but also lowers the reward because a woman can potentially earn more with sex work, or by being a con artist, or a Supreme Court judge, or a car salesman, ,etc....this isn&#039;t making sense...

Boyz, I&#039;m tired of the bickering, its not making sense to me either. I am going to put on my hot pink bikini and eat ice cream on my boyfriend&#039;s boat, I&#039;m taking the day off!!!!

(hehehehe, I say that EVERY DAY!!!!)