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smartcookie
01-23-2006, 11:28 AM
Now, of course, you might say that it is idiotic or pathetic or whatever for a grown man to get that wrapped up in golf or sailing or model railroading or whatever and that you could only respect a guy who has enough of a "real life" that he only participates in such hobbies for a little light hearted fun, etc. But if that is not your take on guys who get so wrapped up in other hobbies, it is not clear why you single out the PMBs for such scorn.

It's patently clear. One requires knowledge and skill, in addition to money. What knowledge or skills do you need to possess in order to have sex with a prostitute? Honestly...if you think seeing prostitutes is akin to playing golf, sailing, or collecting Japanese swords, well okay then.. :-\

And are *you* married, Wwanderer? I don't mean "once was", I mean are you married now? And what about you, Yoda? And you, Punk? When was the last time all of you had girlfriends - and I don't mean the kind you pay. I'm curious.



LOL...oh, spare me. it's about as odd as strippers exchanging information on the best clubs to work, where to buy cheap stripper shoes, etc. furthermore, i don't have to tell you there's a lot of shadiness and flakiness in the business and there are no guarantees. so, what would be the alternative to exchanging information about sex workers? what?..to simply trust the sex worker's word?

Stripping is a job, not a "hobby." Networking within the industry makes perfect sense to me. There are plenty of alternatives to TER (albeit none with a search engine that can find you a 4 ft. blonde Asian who'll rim you). There are two other national boards I'm aware of, and dozens of local boards.



oh yeah, Dave in Phoenix? mr. massage himself? oy, i remember his posting, his spam and his ludicrious claims, of making strippers orgasam from the power of touch massage, from ass-c years ago. a total jackass.

Yes, Dave is wishy-washy. However, he's the only person willing to publicly stand up to TER, and at least he's willing to put his money where his mouth is and support and work for decrimininalization, whereas the majority of you sit around and whine about how expensive hourly rates are becoming.

In my experience, most stereotypes have strong basis in reality. It seems that Yoda's objections have nothing to do with substantive argument, and everything to do with not wanting to be a fucktard.

yoda57us
01-23-2006, 12:23 PM
And are *you* married, Wwanderer? I don't mean "once was", I mean are you married now? And what about you, Yoda? And you, Punk? When was the last time all of you had girlfriends - and I don't mean the kind you pay. I'm curious.

Well frankly SC, it's none of you damn business and it's irrelevant to what I've been arguing with you about. You're picking a lot of battles and mixing up the combatants here.

I happen to agree that most escorts prefer married men. In fact, many dancers have told me that they also prefer married men. The reason is because married men don't come into the salutation looking for drama. While that's mostly true it doesn't mean that a divorced guy or a single guy will automatically be a pain in the ass or that a married guy never will. Again, it's that problem with generalizing. It can bite you in the ass sometimes.

A guy who pays for sex is a guy who pays for sex. That's all that guys who pay for sex have in common with each other. You stated a few posts back that you didn't think I understood where you where coming from. Well, to some degree you are right. You're a provider (or where) and I'm a customer. We will never see eye to eye on this. You where an escort for a year and while I don't denigrate that I have been a customer, off and on, for almost twenty. Itís possible I my have learned a thing or two about the way things work.

I've been a customer as a single guy, a married guy an SO guy and an unattached guy. My status doesn't affect the way I treat a woman - dancer or escort - and itís never affected their willingness to accept my money.


In my experience, most stereotypes have strong basis in reality. It seems that Yoda's objections have nothing to do with substantive argument, and everything to do with not wanting to be a fucktard.

An argument is an argument. What's "substantive" to you may be of no interest to me. You're trying to drag me into places that I simply choose not to go. I don't really care what you call me as long as we're both clear that you're the one doing the name calling here.

Wwanderer
01-23-2006, 12:28 PM
I should just let these things pass, no doubt, but they seem so misleading to me, and so different from my own experience, that maybe it is worth posting an alternative perspective:


Seriously, the message boards there are straight out of Alexander Pope's The Duncead. TER makes SCJ/SW look like a gathering of Mensa.

I certainly would not want to defend TER, which seems to have replaced BigDoggie as the sort of least common denominator of PMBs since the latter's demise; from what I hear (I say "hear" because I don't use it myself), it is about as bad as they get. And I also would not hold up *any* PMB I have ever seen as a shining example of fairness, reason and light...or even completely reliable reviews.

However, unless you had significant experience as a customer or "provider" in the prostitution biz before its online presence became significant (starting roughly 10 years ago), you can hardly imagine how much impact this transition had and how infinitely better off we are now than in those days of an almost perfectly "opaque market". It was really really bad...for both "sides of the bed"...and in a lot of different ways.


Seeing prostitutes is not a challenge - it's a simple equation: you pay her, she fucks you. All of this "I was an original alt.sex.prostitution poster and I'm a HIGHLY respected hobbyist" stuff is nonsense. It's not a badge of pride, and frankly, assembling model ships or collecting stamps is a more impressive feat.

That is true only in the sense that one might also say that "Eating in restaurants is not a challenge - it's a simple equation: you pay the bill, they give you food." And go on to conclude that all this stuff about Zagat ratings, knowing wines, reading restaurant reviews, being a gourmet etc is a lot of "nonsense". It really is a fairly good analogy imo. Your chances of having a really hot and satisfying sexual experience with an escort by just blowing into town, flipping open the phone book (or local adult newspaper or whatever), glancing through and calling up the first agency (or indie) that strikes your fancy is similar to your chance of having a really delicious and memorable meal by picking a restaurant at random from the phone book. You will probably have an orgasm and fill your belly, respectively, with these approaches but you sure as hell won't be getting the most for your money and time.

The fact of the matter is that most guys have difficulty finding experiences with which they are happy when they first start seeing escorts, and many never get the knack of doing so reliably. It is very much "a challenge", and you need do nothing more than scan through any PMB to see that this is the case.

In terms of my personal experience, in the pre-net days I estimate that only around a third of my first "dates" with an escort produced an experience that was even marginally satisfactory, in the specific sense that I afterwards thought that it was better than keeping my money and seeing no one. Maybe 15-20% were really enjoyable and fun. In recent years (say the last 5), with the message boards and, even more importantly, the availability of private/backchannel info from "HIGHLY respected hobbyists", pretty much 100% of my first "dates" meet that same criteria of being marginally satisfactory. I can't even recall, off hand, the last one that was worse than that standard. Even better, I'd guess that 70-80% are really quite good, at the level that I used to see 20% or less of the time.

So, if any guy reading this is thinking of giving escorts a try (or another try), I'd strongly suggest doing your homework on the prostitution boards and, if possible, getting info and referrals from some experienced hobbyist(s). You'll be very glad you did, unless your taste in sexual experiences is analogus to the food tastes of those people who see little point in any cuisine beyond that served in fast food joints or greasy spoon cafes.

-Ww

Wwanderer
01-23-2006, 12:46 PM
It's patently clear. One requires knowledge and skill, in addition to money. What knowledge or skills do you need to possess in order to have sex with a prostitute? Honestly...if you think seeing prostitutes is akin to playing golf, sailing, or collecting Japanese swords, well okay then.. :-\

See my previous post, which was being typed while this one of yours appeared, for the answer. Finding a good experience with an escort is a considerable challenge, and as an aside, escorts who don't think that there is anything to it beyond - he pays his money and then I let him pump away (or blow him) until he cums, end of story - generally aren't very good or successful in the biz.


And are *you* married, Wwanderer? I don't mean "once was", I mean are you married now? And what about you, Yoda? And you, Punk? When was the last time all of you had girlfriends - and I don't mean the kind you pay. I'm curious.

Like Yoda, I don't see this as terrifically relevant, except that you are trying to support your generalization that only (or almost only) guys who can't find women who will have sex with them for free see escorts regularly. This is very much not the case for me, but I am not inclined to post a lot of details about my personal life on a public message board. However, I will answer your question in detail and completely truthfully. I will do it by PM. I ask that you then report back to the group by a post in this thread and say whether or not my answer surprises you and how well it fits your preconceptions about regular hobbyists. If, of course, you choose to post what I PM to you, there is nothing I can do about it (aside from asking the mods to delete it, perhaps). It wouldn't be the end of the world anyway...just less than ideal from my point of view.


In my experience, most stereotypes have strong basis in reality.

I agree with that statement; most do indeed have a significant validity. However, this does not make it wise to treat individuals according to those stereotypes or to perpetuate them. Not only is it unfair to those people who are exceptions, but also there is often more "value" (in many senses and contexts) in the exceptions to a rule than to those cases that follow it. And, surely, both dancers and escorts are among those with the most to lose by being treated as if all conformed to their professions' popular stereotypes, neh?

-Ww

mr_punk
01-23-2006, 08:44 PM
Stripping is a job, not a "hobby." Networking within the industry makes perfect sense to me. There are plenty of alternatives to TER (albeit none with a search engine that can find you a 4 ft. blonde Asian who'll rim you). There are two other national boards I'm aware of, and dozens of local boards.yes, there are alternatives to TER. i prefer ASPD myself. still, all the boards can be useful in helping the consumer protect himself from the flakier elements. i'm sure you've heard the horror stories. i'm sure you also know that, one better bulletproof their ass as much as possible. no one likes being ripped-off including escorts.

Yes, Dave is wishy-washy. However, he's the only person willing to publicly stand up to TER, and at least he's willing to put his money where his mouth is and support and work for decrimininalization, whereas the majority of you sit around and whine about how expensive hourly rates are becoming.i'm in favor of decrimininalization. however, i'm also a pragmatist. this isn't canada. it's a totally different culture down here. the societal mores just aren't there yet and not many politicians (outside of the left coast in the bay area perhaps) are going to commit political suicide by pushing such an agenda.

And are *you* married, Wwanderer? I don't mean "once was", I mean are you married now? And what about you, Yoda? And you, Punk? When was the last time all of you had girlfriends - and I don't mean the kind you pay. I'm curious.LOL..married once? i wish. i bought almost as many wedding rings as richard freaking burton, sister. oy, why didn't someone stop me? anyway, if you're that curious, do a search. there's a post somewhere around here with all the bloody and gory details.

mr_punk
01-23-2006, 08:49 PM
Yes, I remember having a real problem seeing how a woman was ethically responsible for being touched when she didn't agree or invite someone to touch her. you know that's not your problem when it comes to weasel-spotting. you have that part down pat.

Seriously dude - I think you're the one with the problem.LOL..seriously, do i? well, you didn't seem to think so. when i agreed with you about MW's DJ pal being a weasel. now, that the shoe is on the other foot. you're singing a different tune. but hey, i understand. you being a radical feminist/stripper and all. it's probably not convenient to say otherwise. it might ruin your street cred down at NOW. still, i thought you would appreciate the irony.

Well it depends on what you mean by care. I care enough (obviously) to post about it. But I'm not telling them to stop. As you say they pay my rent - but I can still think it is pathetic when someone defines it as a huge personal coup to have a stripper fuck them real, real cheap. Just my opinion - and as I said, the fucktards all already know who they are, and they probably don't even need me to tell them that it's pretty pathetic.
yes, you do sell and profit from it, but i'm also referring to the dichotomy. OTOH, i don't think you're personally involved with these customers. i don't think you're giving up the ass for cheap (not that you're doing it in the first place). OTOH, in a way, it almost seems as if you are because your contempt is dependent upon what he's doing with other strippers.

frankly, i find the behavior no different than customers who say, "kandi is a classy gal who would never do extras. i would lose all respect for her. if i found out that she did". the funny thing is that kandi could be the temple virgin he imagines her to be or she could be the biggest whore in the club. either way, she's still a sex worker. he's not dating her and he doesn't know what she does with other customers. i suppose, some customers like to think they have an some impact or influence in these girls lives beyond the money, but they don't. so, i don't see the point in making the respect (or lack thereof) dependent upon what she does (or doesn't do) with other customers.

And really, when you get customers repeatedly telling me that they don't have to be nice, they aren't paying to be nice, and that I'm excluded from normal courtesy by virtue of providing them with a service that they seem to wantwell, they are paying you biatches to be nice to them, not the other way around. so, you biatches better start acting really nice. seriously, what would you expect from a customer who goes to sc under the impression that he is just as important to you as the money?

contheboyalready
01-27-2006, 04:08 AM
And, surely, both dancers and escorts are among those with the most to lose by being treated as if all conformed to their professions' popular stereotypes, neh?

-Ww

OK. This is a bit off topic, but what are the stereotype qualities of an escort?

Thinking back over media/film portrayal of escorts...I don't see the sort of simplistic stereotype that strippers have. Is it Lana in Risky Business? A few other examples: Leaving Las Vegas, Whore, Dressed to Kill, ... and of course....Pretty Woman.... Has the stereotype for an escort become the "hooker with a heart of gold" character?

yoda57us
01-27-2006, 12:58 PM
Thinking back over media/film portrayal of escorts...I don't see the sort of simplistic stereotype that strippers have.

.... Has the stereotype for an escort become the "hooker with a heart of gold" character?

Yeah, I think that sums up the movie portrayal of escorts pretty well. The movies are the movies-both escorts and strippers are portrayed in a way that hollywood thinks will sell tickets. Societal stereotypes are a whole different story and tend to be much less sympathetic to all women working in the sex industry.
Honestly I see more similarities than I do differences in societies streotypes towards both occupations. For example; Most people who have never met a stripper automaticaly assume that they are prostitutes who happen to dance naked before heading for bed with a guy. All hookers and dancers are home wreckers and/or drug addicts who where abused as children. The only acception to this is the occasional nymphomaniac who doesn't care about the money or the drugs. Lastly there is the control freak who just digs the power she has over men. Im sure I've missed a few sub-categories.

For what it's worth, I've noticed that both dancers and escorts seem to have some very similar complaints about their bad customers (grabby, cheap, pervert, smells bad, he's falling in love with me) and similar positive comments about their good ones (generous, respectful, nice guy, always look forward to seeing him).

Wwanderer
01-27-2006, 02:18 PM
OK. This is a bit off topic, but what are the stereotype qualities of an escort?

Thinking back over media/film portrayal of escorts...I don't see the sort of simplistic stereotype that strippers have. Is it Lana in Risky Business? A few other examples: Leaving Las Vegas, Whore, Dressed to Kill, ... and of course....Pretty Woman.... Has the stereotype for an escort become the "hooker with a heart of gold" character?

It seems to me that you see the really stereotypical portrayals in movies (or books or whatever) in the minor and supporting characters. For a lead or major character the requirements of the plot and so forth often require something other than or in addition to the standard stereotype. But for the less important characters, there is usually no dramatic need to spend the time/space developing a non-stereotyped character.

Anyway, like Yoda, I think that the stereotypes of escorts and strippers are not very different in popular entertainment (or the public mind); for the most part, both are portrayed as either one of two types: 1) tough, cynical, selfish, manipulating, rough and perhaps criminal or 2) victimized/abused/exploited, innocent damsel in distress types who are sufferring at the hands of a pimp or gangster or abusive SO or... Neither a dancer or a stripper is usually shown as a strong, positive or admirable type of character. The "heart of gold" variation is usually invoked to make either type of sex worker a more sympathetic character for the hero to save or bed or get help from and is, I think, an interesting consequence of society's somewhat ambivalent feelings about sex work, whether it is or isn't wrong and who is to blame if it is, etc.

Anyway, my point was that while it is certainly easy to find real world dancers and escorts who fit these sorts of stereotypes, I am sure that they apply very poorly to many SW dancers (and dancer/escorts). I think the same is probably true of the SC junkies you find on SW.

-Ww

juan
08-20-2006, 03:25 PM
Because I am not Brad Pitt.

xdamage
08-22-2006, 08:39 PM
Because I am not Brad Pitt.

Possibly the truest (is that a word?) least bullshit answer ever. Getting sex is definitely easier if you've been lucky in the gene pool. If not, you still have the same drives as everyone else, but sex doesn't necessarily come easily, except when paid for. Then you get more or less what you want when you want it (for a fee of course).

xdamage
08-24-2006, 08:50 AM
Sexual attractiveness is a complex thing, and physical appearance is a big factor. In part we have some control over our appearance (e.g., we often have some control over our weight, to some degree our physique, how we cut our hair, and so on). In part people have no control over their appearance (e.g., if you're going to have crooked teeth, you really have no choice in the matter, it's going to happen not because you deserve it, just luck of the draw.) Same with acne, shape of the face, where your body tends to accumulate fat, your hair, a lot of this is genetic luck. No different the flipping a coin and having it come up heads or tails. Then it's complicated by the fact the medicine and surgery can compensate for genetics, if you can afford it and want it. Then on top of that throw in aging, more genetic decline in appearance. Again, you can do somethings to slow it, but you can't completely stop it.

But even average looking people and the "homley" or downright unlucky have the same basic human drives and needs as the hot and sexy.

So sometimes it comes down to a pretty simple thing. An average looking guy wants to have sex with a hot looking woman. He doesn't want to spend months wooing a girl, he just wants a girl to want to fuck him with no more effort then a hot looking guy might have to put out.

Put another way, very few guys that pay for it necessarily like doing it, but looking like "Brad Pitt" isn't an option for them.

Now having said that, there are things a guy can do to improve his appearance despite genetics, but that only goes so far. Or you can do things to compensate with your personality, and sure that works if you work on it for long enough, but it's still not the same as being a hot looking guy where woman immediately want to sleep with you. Sex workers on the other hand immediately want to be sexual with a guy (for money, but the basic need to be wanted sexually is fullfilled).

lunchbox
08-24-2006, 11:58 AM
You can also compensate with money, pay for everything, and then technically not pay for sex.

yoda57us
08-24-2006, 01:20 PM
Um, I know I've already said this but I think it bears repeating. Most guys who buy sex are married or have an SO. All we are looking for is a strange NSA piece of ass. In most cases it's just that simple. BTW, it's also why most guys go to strip clubs.

mr_punk
08-24-2006, 04:53 PM
i agree, as yoda pointed out, most of a sex worker's customers isn't going to be the homely, socially-inept, cosplaying fanboy. odds are it's some guy already in some kind of relationship looking for a new piece of ass. a man's insatiable appetite for variety is what keeps the world oldest profession in business.

FBR
08-24-2006, 05:06 PM
If you read the escort boards and have some hands on experience, just having money to spend doesnt guarantee anything. Escorts... or strippers that choose to go OTC....dont have to put out purely because a prospect can pay for it. I imagine (based on me being no Adonis) the boundaries are flexible but assuming all sex workers will take on any job regardless of the unattractiveness of the customers is incorrect. They do pick and choose to some degree.

FBR

xdamage
08-25-2006, 06:27 AM
Um, I know I've already said this but I think it bears repeating. Most guys who buy sex are married or have an SO. All we are looking for is a strange NSA piece of ass. In most cases it's just that simple. BTW, it's also why most guys go to strip clubs.

Agree, however my interpretation of the situation is a little different. No question men in relationships are paying for something on the side. But even the most homley and poor can end up married eventually.

I'm not so sure though that the majority looking for something on the side is making a ?smart? choice to pay for NSA, or because they can't easily get NSA "free" pieces of ass. Of course nothing is free, but there are plenty of women looking for a good time, even with married guys, if they are sexy enough.

Put another way, it's probably true that a lot of the users are married guys or guys in relationships. And it's surely true that a lot them want some ass on the side. But that doesn't necessarily mean though that they would pay for it if they were hot enough and had more opportunities to indulge without paying for it. It would probably be smart to pay for it since that's almost a guarantee of no strings attached, but how many guys are really that smart when it comes to what the pecker wants?

p.s. Jay pointed out that personality can work, and he is right, but there are a lot of guys that can be nice, or polite, or humorous. Now you might find a woman that over the long run becomes emotionally involved with a guy like that, but a relationship that starts out based on personality first, sex interests later is probably not a good way to go about getting NSA ass. By the time she sleeps with you chances are she will have formed emotional bonds and then it's going to get messy.

xdamage
08-25-2006, 06:40 AM
I imagine (based on me being no Adonis) the boundaries are flexible but assuming all sex workers will take on any job regardless of the unattractiveness of the customers is incorrect. They do pick and choose to some degree.
FBR

Sure, and nobody suggested otherwise. It's not a matter of absolutes, it's a matter of probabilities.

Say the unattractive customer's probability of scoring with a hot piece of ass for free is near 0%, while the probability of scoring a hot piece of paid for ass might be only 10%, but for someone whose driven to have sex with a good looking woman, comparing 0% with a 10%, it ends up being a case of it's probably never going to happen unless they pay for it. So some pay for it.

Now compare that with a good looking guy whose probability of scoring a free hot piece of ass is say 5%, while the probability of scoring a hot piece of paid for ass is nearly 100%. He might pay because it's easy, but 5% doesn't feel like an impossibility and he could fullfill that desire without paying for it if he makes a little effort.

Then compare that with say a very hot girl who pretty much every guy would nail if they could, and she is probably never going to pay for it because she has many opportunities to score some NSA hot guy without paying for it.

yoda57us
08-25-2006, 11:06 AM
I'm not so sure though that the majority looking for something on the side is making a ?smart? choice to pay for NSA, or because they can't easily get NSA "free" pieces of ass. Of course nothing is free, but there are plenty of women looking for a good time, even with married guys, if they are sexy enough.



For a little while yes, but eventualy that woman will want some sort of commitment, even if it's just a promise that you willmeet on such and such a day and that you won't boink anyone else aside from her and the wife... You hit it right when you said nothing is free. Add to that the fact that many guys justify the cheating by the fact that they are paying for the sex. Yes, it's just a rationalization but it's what a lot of us hang on to..

"If they are sexy enough". My entire point is that being sexy enough doesn't enter into it when you are paying for it. Yes, your personality and your skills may effect how much both parties enjoy themselves but physical attraction is not the jumping-off point when you call an escort service. If you pay a girl on a regular basis she may or may not think you are sexy but she will still take your money and give you what you want.}:D

miabella
08-25-2006, 11:19 AM
why do not-so-attractive guys feel that they 'deserve' access to women far more attractive than they are? secondly, why do guys of any level of attractiveness feel they 'deserve' access to no-strings sex inside or outside of a committed relationship?

why, in a nutshell, do men feel they can purchase beauty, desire and often affection? why do they feel they have the right to other bodies just because they happen to 'want some variety'?

i'm trying to understand that rather alarming and outrageous sense of entitlement.

Katrine
08-25-2006, 02:25 PM
But aren't we the ones who have the sense of entitlement mia? Cause ya know, we get stuff from guys, like heavy objects lifted and god forbid, free meals.... Oooooh, its really the evil women with the sense of entitlement. Really, the golum deserves a hot piece of ass as much as anyone, he's worked hard for it, ya know....

Jenny
08-25-2006, 03:12 PM
why do not-so-attractive guys feel that they 'deserve' access to women far more attractive than they are?
Normally I would agree. But in this case I think they feel they deserve it because they are paying for it.


secondly, why do guys of any level of attractiveness feel they 'deserve' access to no-strings sex inside or outside of a committed relationship?
I don't know anything about any of these guys' relationships with their SO's, but I do know that a lot of things go down in relationships (even committed ones). So I don't know if this is an area in which any of us can judge.


why, in a nutshell, do men feel they can purchase beauty, desire and often affection? why do they feel they have the right to other bodies just because they happen to 'want some variety'?
Well, probably the reason they feel that is because they can, in fact, purchase beauty and if not desire, certainly pliability. That is not really a contentious fact.


i'm trying to understand that rather alarming and outrageous sense of entitlement.So... you're saying that you don't think these guys would make good boyfriends? Hmm. Well. Gosh. What gave that away?

And Kat - I'm a firm believer in whoever asks pays. I don't like dates. It's like if I order dessert I'm obligated to do bad naughty girl things. :)

Can I just ask something? Don't you think we're all being a little facile here, acting like a date in which one person pays is equal to hiring an escort? To me, equating being on time to a date with direct payment for sex seems a conflation beyond any meaning.

miabella
08-25-2006, 05:13 PM
jenny, i understand they are paying for it. i'm trying to understand why any man feels they ought to be buying beauty and affection in the first place. this is not something you see in the same sense with women who purchase gigolos or whatever. that dynamic is quite different.

the fact that these guys keep harping on 'oh you pay for it anyhow in the end so i am going with professionals' represents massive entitlement by itself.

'i, mr 50 year old pudgy guy, deserve this 22 year old hardbodied young lady because i have money with which to buy her charms' is, you know, pretty darned entitled-sounding.

for me, that entitlement represents a big chunk of why customers/clients tend to suck rather than be cool.

FBR
08-25-2006, 05:45 PM
Can I just ask something? Don't you think we're all being a little facile here, acting like a date in which one person pays is equal to hiring an escort?

Probably not true in all cases but I do think the line moves fairly easily (and subtly) once the dancer wraps her arms around the easy money.

FBR

Yekhefah
08-25-2006, 05:48 PM
I don't think it's "entitlement" to purchase what you want, whether you're purchasing the services of a beautiful young prostitute or purchasing a 72" plasma TV. You don't NEED either one, but if you earn the money then you have every right to enjoy the things you want to buy with it. He's not saying, "I deserve this because I have money," he's saying, "I have money and therefore I can buy this." I don't consider that entitlement; it's just capitalism.

FBR
08-25-2006, 05:52 PM
A buyer cant consumate the sale without a willing seller.

xdamage
08-25-2006, 06:14 PM
why do not-so-attractive guys feel that they 'deserve' access to women far more attractive than they are? secondly, why do guys of any level of attractiveness feel they 'deserve' access to no-strings sex inside or outside of a committed relationship?

why, in a nutshell, do men feel they can purchase beauty, desire and often affection? why do they feel they have the right to other bodies just because they happen to 'want some variety'?

i'm trying to understand that rather alarming and outrageous sense of entitlement.

Human nature. You may as well ask why do women feel they are entitled to security, a comfortable life, protection, or whatever it is that you are geneticaly programmed to desire out of life. You may as well ask why do poor people feel like they would like some good food, even food they can't afford.

LIke I said, it has nothing to do with entitlement. Some are luckier then others in the looks department. Those who are lucky weren't entitled to be lucky - they were just lucky. Pure random luck like flipping a coin. Those who weren't so lucky, didnt deserve that either, but they still have the same drives and wants as the lucky.

I don't see what the big deal is. If you're lucky enjoy it, but you can do so and be compassionate and at least accept it on faith that even the not so lucky have the same drives and needs as the lucky (whether its a want for money, good food, a beautiful woman, whatever).


And the fact is men can buy other people's bodies because others (e.g., srippers) are willing to sell. It's a mutual using. You might as well ask why do women sell their bodies? Do they want money that badly? Well apprently they do. Same thing. Men want something, so they trade for it.

And yes Yoda, I agree. A smart guy who wants NS sex will pay for it. Just thinking that's not the norm. I would gamble the average guy who gets offers for free will take that route and risk/hope for no strings.

miabella
08-25-2006, 06:37 PM
purchasing another person's body is not a biological need, sorry.

the question of willingness is an open one. there is plenty of evidence both anecdotal and otherwise that sex-selling women are not particularly willing in the accepted senses of the term. leaving a woman with very few options for getting money and/or surviving is hardly 'willingness to sell'. it's disguised coercion.

also, women are not plasma TVs. you don't fall in love with your plasma TV after seeing it regularly for months on end.

this is kind of a chicken/egg thing. which came first, some woman offering and guys coming to consider it their right to take, or the other way round?

FBR
08-25-2006, 06:56 PM
And yes Yoda, I agree. A smart guy who wants NS sex will pay for it. Just thinking that's not the norm. I would gamble the average guy who gets offers for free will take that route and risk/hope for no strings.

Eh...in my experience its never free long term. Pay for play, while not as emotionally satisfying (prior to the drama) , is much cleaner in the long run.

FBR

xdamage
08-25-2006, 08:00 PM
purchasing another person's body is not a biological need, sorry.


Sexual desire is a biological need shared by all people regardless of their appearance, wealth, etc. Purchasing another person's body is just a means to fullfill it.



the question of willingness is an open one. there is plenty of evidence both anecdotal and otherwise that sex-selling women are not particularly willing in the accepted senses of the term. leaving a woman with very few options for getting money and/or surviving is hardly 'willingness to sell'. it's disguised coercion.


Ya Im sure there are some women who end up with little choice but to work at Walmart for min wage, or go on welfare, or prostitute. Some, but not all. Some do it because they make better money then other types of work and they like the benefits of the money more than the negatives or prostituting.

But look at it a different way, if men were different as you want them to be, you'd be out of business as a stripper, and the prostitutes that have few options would have one less option.

I admit I find it somewhat funny and ironic when sex workers act like their customers are mentally unwell or morally weak. It makes me think of "taking candy from a baby" or "taking money from the retarded or mentally unwell, or benefiting off the morally weak". I got to say when I look at it like that I can't help but think some of the finger pointing needs to go both ways or neither way.

Yes, it's a chicken and egg thing. Sex workers exist because there are sex customers. Sex customers exist because there are sex workers. You can either accept this is a normal condition of human nature, or you can choose to believe the chicken or the egg is morally weak or mentally unwell.

xdamage
08-25-2006, 08:02 PM
Eh...in my experience its never free long term. Pay for play, while not as emotionally satisfying (prior to the drama) , is much cleaner in the long run.

FBR


You're a smart customer and I agree. I'd pay anyway because its smart. But I'm not so sure most guys would realize the long term cost until/after they learn the hardway.

Katrine
08-25-2006, 08:46 PM
Herein lies the problem. You state "you pay for it all anyway in the end." Thus, all women are relegated to prostitution status. Perhaps its because some of you gents come from an older generation, but in my life and social circles, the women take care of themselves, make just as much money as men, enjoy being spoiled and pampered, but don't expect full financial support just because they are giving up the pussy.

Perhaps you guys should get to know people other than your wives, strippers, and hookers? ;)

mr_punk
08-25-2006, 11:01 PM
Put another way, it's probably true that a lot of the users are married guys or guys in relationships. And it's surely true that a lot them want some ass on the side. But that doesn't necessarily mean though that they would pay for it if they were hot enough and had more opportunities to indulge without paying for it. It would probably be smart to pay for it since that's almost a guarantee of no strings attached, but how many guys are really that smart when it comes to what the pecker wants?in my experience, the major drawback to cheating with civilian women is the problem of extracting oneself from the affair. as yoda pointed out, it can get complicated (ie: he ends up on the receiving end of unfair accusations, ultimatums and gets characterized as the big jerk, etc) which is the last thing the guy is looking for.

why do not-so-attractive guys feel that they 'deserve' access to women far more attractive than they are? secondly, why do guys of any level of attractiveness feel they 'deserve' access to no-strings sex inside or outside of a committed relationship?i'm surprised you would ask such a question. i would have thoght you ladies would have seen the principle in action on a nightly basis. well, to answer both questions. it's simply because our willies tell us that we can. now, it may not sound as noble or romantic as love. however, depending on the circumstances, a man's penis can override all rational thought from his brain. yeah, i know. men are pigs..oink..oink..oink.

i'm trying to understand why any man feels they ought to be buying beauty and affection in the first place. this is not something you see in the same sense with women who purchase gigolos or whatever. that dynamic is quite different.yes, it is a different dynamic, but shoe shopping also has a different dynamic between men and women. i mean, i can't see why anyone would drool over a pair of Manolo Blahnik on sale, but i've seen women do it.

Herein lies the problem. You state "you pay for it all anyway in the end." Thus, all women are relegated to prostitution status. Perhaps its because some of you gents come from an older generation, but in my life and social circles, the women take care of themselves, make just as much money as men, enjoy being spoiled and pampered, but don't expect full financial support just because they are giving up the pussy.i agree. i dislike comparisons to a civilian relationship to sex workers. why, i wouldn't even make that comparison to my ex-wives. trust me, i can think of a lot worse things that i could compare them to besides a whore. besides, that would just give all those honest, hard-working ho's a bad name.

miabella
08-25-2006, 11:06 PM
pretty much it just seems like the virgin/whore thing dressed up with fancy rationalisations. why do some women HAVE to be whores at all? why do some of them have to be the ones to sell it? 'i get horny, therefore i deserve pussy from SOMEONE' is precisely the entitlement i am talking about.

and customers fall in love all the time, so i'm not really sure that aspect of things is immediately relevant, except to illustrate that no-strings is often a delusion even when it's paid for.

Plenty_for_Twenty
08-26-2006, 02:37 AM
Sexual desire is a biological need shared by all people regardless of their appearance, wealth, etc. Purchasing another person's body is just a means to fullfill it.

What about rape? Another means to an end?

xdamage
08-26-2006, 06:06 AM
What about rape? Another means to an end?

Well think of some other need. Say the need to eat.

What about stealing to get money for food? Another means to an end?

Stealing is a means to end. That doesn't change that the need to eat is biological.

But the topic is not about rapists. It's about paying for sex.

Here are some definitions of Prostitute I found on the web:

Prostitution is the sale of sexual services (examples: oral sex, sexual intercourse) for money. A person selling sexual services is a prostitute.
Worker who offers sex for money. In many western countries only semi-legal and of low social status. Prostitution is known as "the oldest profession". Prostitutes may work ("working") on the streets or in massage parlours, also as call girls or as escorts. Other sex workers include strippers or dancers. Prostitutes Collective is the NZ union. The act or practice of engaging in sex acts for hire.



pretty much it just seems like the virgin/whore thing dressed up with fancy rationalisations.


Human biology is what it is. You may not like it, but nature doesn't care if you like it.



why do some women HAVE to be whores at all? why do some of them have to be the ones to sell it?


You work in the sex for hire industry. You live in a culture where women have all kinds of opportunities, and yet even with all those opportunities you choose to be a sex worker. You tell us why.

I also noticed you completely ignored my point of irony. If men behaved as you think they should, you'd be out of business. It would seem that unless you just want to finger point at the evil customers, you could do something else (possibly for less money) and not feed into the sex worker - customer interdependency.

So why do it then? I would guess because sex workers want money, and because sex customers want sex. It doesn't seem that the reason is anymore complicated then that.



and customers fall in love all the time, so i'm not really sure that aspect of things is immediately relevant, except to illustrate that no-strings is often a delusion even when it's paid for.


True. The need for sex and the need to be wanted by the opposite sex is part of what makes us human. Sex and male/femle relationships are intertwined. Some customers use sex workers to fill an emotional void in their life.



Herein lies the problem. You state "you pay for it all anyway in the end." Thus, all women are relegated to prostitution status. Perhaps its because some of you gents come from an older generation, but in my life and social circles, the women take care of themselves, make just as much money as men, enjoy being spoiled and pampered, but don't expect full financial support just because they are giving up the pussy.

Perhaps you guys should get to know people other than your wives, strippers, and hookers?


Guys of course do spend a lot of time with women in other settings, or at least I do. They are pretty much just like my guy friends.

Wives and GFs aren't prostitutes. We do care what about what happens to them tomorrow, and the relationship is far more complex then just sex.

You make decent money and are independent, which is great. A lot of women aren't so independent.

xdamage
08-26-2006, 06:50 AM
'i, mr 50 year old pudgy guy, deserve this 22 year old hardbodied young lady because i have money with which to buy her charms' is, you know, pretty darned entitled-sounding.

for me, that entitlement represents a big chunk of why customers/clients tend to suck rather than be cool.

I wanted to comment on this earlier and forgot.

You give the guys way too much credit. And the best way to see how is by turning it around. Here is the turned around version:

"i, ms 22 year old hard body, deserve this 50 year old pudgy guys money because i have a body with which to entice him is, you know, pretty darned entitled-sounding"

You make it sound like you're a victim rather then a willing participant in this exchange of money for body. You have the choice to do something else, you may not make as much money, but you can do something else. The customer has a choice to spend his money on someone else, he may not spend it on you, but he can choose.

He's fortunate to have money to trade. Lucky him. You're fortunate to have a young hard body to trade. Lucky you. But neither of you has to do this. We aren't living in a country where you are forced to strip. Quite the opposite, it's mostly frowned on by society.

miabella
08-26-2006, 07:18 AM
both the whore and the john are victims in different ways, really.

i went into stripping because i was lazy and short-sighted. and i'd be perfectly happy to have a world where sexwork didn't exist, so i'm not sure why you think i would want to keep it around.

biology doesn't involve purchasing anything. i mean, before whoredom arrived, some people wanted sex and didn't get to have it. it is well known and discussed here that most sexworkers don't enjoy the work AT ALL the majority of the time they perform it. do you really think about the fact that you're buying someone's body and (simulated?) emotions when they would really prefer not to give them to you, but for a wide range of reasons feel they must?

money is the excuse, not the motive. i mean, for all that pinkies lament society not adoring sexwork, they often seem to be confused about the fact that they are rewarded pretty much for the stigma. i increasingly suspect the stigma exists because there shouldn't be a 'whore class' of women at all and social sexism means that the girls doing it take the brunt of that belief rather than the men who continually justify their supposed 'right' to buy them.

no matter what way you justify it, it's still using other people and then trying to say that their letting themselves be used is a-ok because it's 'capitalism' or 'free agency', as if it all happens in a magical vacuum free of external influences and factors.

i just seriously question all these assumptions that underlie johns defending sexwork. but i've always been quite ambivalent about the whole thing, especially when i've seen how 'free' the choice really is for a lot of sexworkers.

xdamage
08-26-2006, 08:23 AM
both the whore and the john are victims in different ways, really.


sure



i went into stripping because i was lazy and short-sighted. and i'd be perfectly happy to have a world where sexwork didn't exist, so i'm not sure why you think i would want to keep it around.


Understood. I guess the counterbalance point is that a lot of guys go into some line of low stress work due to lazy or short-sightedness, the years pass, and they are barely making minimum wage, and they'd probably be perfectly happy to live in a world where they didn't feel like they have to pay for sex.



biology doesn't involve purchasing anything.


I didn't say it did, at least no more so then purchasing food. The biology is that people have biological needs to eat, have sex, be wanted, etc.



i mean, before whoredom arrived, some people wanted sex and didn't get to have it.


It is called the oldest profession in the world for a reason, but yes, you can live without sex. You can also live with good food, air conditioning, blankets, a lot of things, that are still biological wants.



it is well known and discussed here that most sexworkers don't enjoy the work AT ALL the majority of the time they perform it. do you really think about the fact that you're buying someone's body and (simulated?) emotions when they would really prefer not to give them to you, but for a wide range of reasons feel they must?


Thats true. My point was that I don't think sexcustomers really like having to pay for it either, but they will given the other choices, just like sexworkers will sell, given the other choices.

However I do accept that sex work can leave the sex worker feeling very uncomfortable because it involves initimate use of their bodies.

The only counterpoint to that, they still in most cultures have a choice to do this, and to some degree they MUST take responsibility for the choice they make. It's what being an adult is all about. At some point it's not good enough to forever complain in the face of a choice and not make another choice. At some point it must be that you have to assume that as bad as it is, they believe that the other choices (e.g., working 40hrs a week for much less money) is a lot more painful/humiliting then sex work.



money is the excuse, not the motive.


I'm not sure. People do make excuses, but money is motivating. It's just bits of paper and numbers, but we can buy a lot of things with it later. Suffer while we work, pleasure later when we spend. Customers work too, probably long hours, so that they can buy other things.



i mean, for all that pinkies lament society not adoring sexwork, they often seem to be confused about the fact that they are rewarded pretty much for the stigma.


True. If it really was common place (and it's becoming so to some degree) it will eventually be seen as boring, and become very competative so that it really won't pay any better then any other commonplace job.



i increasingly suspect the stigma exists because there shouldn't be a 'whore class' of women at all and social sexism means that the girls doing it take the brunt of that belief rather than the men who continually justify their supposed 'right' to buy them.


I think in general society looks down on the customers too, as do the strippers who often generally believe the knight-in-shining-armor/pathetic-loser paradox. It's like the whore/virgin thing. On the one hand they think men should be Knights and Gentlemen and really shouldn't need to pay for it, while on the other they want to give up the money when they shake their tits and ass like pathetic losers.



no matter what way you justify it, it's still using other people and then trying to say that their letting themselves be used is a-ok because it's 'capitalism' or 'free agency', as if it all happens in a magical vacuum free of external influences and factors.


We can discuss what is objectively without discussing if it's a-ok or not.

As for external influences. last I checked it's just us people, the animals, and the world we all grew up in over millions of years.. I'm quite sure the animals aren't doing mind control tricks on us. That leaves only us people as influencing other people over the course of history, and the world our genes were shaped in. Sex work and customers is old news, and is prevelent in many cultures now and in the past. I'd gamble that it reflects something about people's nature, no external influences needed.



i just seriously question all these assumptions that underlie johns defending sexwork. but i've always been quite ambivalent about the whole thing, especially when i've seen how 'free' the choice really is for a lot of sexworkers.

I think this is where we disagree some although I admit I have a customer side bias (limited to strippers as I have reasons I don't want HJs, BJs, etc), but still...

I still the best point I can make to you is this. Imagine if all the John's woke up tomorrow and agreed sex work is wrong, and stopped using sex services, then tomorrow morning you and all the other sexworkers that argue you have no free choice in the matter would be out of work. Poof. That choice (which you claim you don't really have) is gone. Now what? Are you really happier for it? Did your life just get better or worse? Because suddenly your remaining choices would be all the other choices that you've had all along yet for whatever reason, never choose.

When I look at it like that, I think it must be that given all the other choices, you've already made what you think is the best choice. And that arguing the evils of sexwork is just a red herring to avoid having to cope with the fact that you really don't want to choose anything else, but you also don't want to feel responsible for the choice you make.

mr_punk
08-26-2006, 08:47 AM
'i get horny, therefore i deserve pussy from SOMEONE' is precisely the entitlement i am talking about.well..er..yeah. what else can i say? it's a dick thing.

it is well known and discussed here that most sexworkers don't enjoy the work AT ALL the majority of the time they perform it. do you really think about the fact that you're buying someone's body and (simulated?) emotions when they would really prefer not to give them to you, but for a wide range of reasons feel they must?sure, i thought about it and it's not my problem. every woman isn't meant for sex work (emphasis on the word WORK). it's her problem about what she's doing for a living. as a customer, i can't do much. i can't make them enjoy the sex (besides, that means i would actually have to work), stripping, etc. frankly, they don't have to like it. they just have to do it. furthermore, i can't save them from being lazy, short-sighted or any other circumstances of life. i'm not their BF, SO or even their friend. all i can do is give them money for their time and bolt for the door.

money is the excuse, not the motive. i mean, for all that pinkies lament society not adoring sexwork, they often seem to be confused about the fact that they are rewarded pretty much for the stigma.well, it must be worth it to them on some level despite the stigma. after all, money is a means of independence. sure, there's always the Wal-mart option, but how many sex workers are going to jump at that offer compared to the flexibility and walking home with tax-free, (although, i sure you ladies pay your taxes) cash money of stripping?

i increasingly suspect the stigma exists because there shouldn't be a 'whore class' of women at all and social sexism means that the girls doing it take the brunt of that belief rather than the men who continually justify their supposed 'right' to buy them.LOL..now, jenny would eat that comment up with a spoon and ask for seconds. don't get me wrong, i don't necessarily disagree. however, before you lay the blame completely on the shoulders of the patrichary. women (including many strippers themselves) do it just as much as men.

yoda57us
08-26-2006, 11:03 AM
When I accept an offer of sex for money from a dancer (I've never asked the question) or when I solicit an escort I am agreeing to pay their fee as a customer. Frankly, I'm not worried about weather the woman WANTS to be there or not. She has chosen to be there and she will deal with the emotional repercussions in her own way.
I've seen a few ladies who where obviously drunk or stoned during our encounter and, in each of these cases, I chose not to see the lady again. I'm not naive enough to think that sleeping with strange men for money is a joy ride but I prefer women who have a grip on what they are doing...at least for the time being.

I agree Kat; we should get to know women outside of the Stripper/Escort realm. I think guys like me and others on this board sometimes forget how the rest of the world works. While I do think we all pay for sex in one way or another I think it's fairly obvious to thinking human beings that an emotional involvement or commitment is much more of a two way street than just forking over $300.

I actually know quite a few women "on the outside". They all see my ring or the pictures of my kid in my wallet and that pretty much eliminates the possibility of any of them sleeping with me for fun.

As far as a sense of entitlement goes I don't even see where that's even relevant. If I pull out my wallet and a woman willingly takes my money in exchange for sex with me we are completing a business proposition. I don't feel ďentitled" to her body or her time until I pay for it. When our time is up the only thing I feel entitled to is a thank you and a goodbye hug. No receipt is necessary.

Last night I paid a woman I've known for a while for two hours of her time to have sex with me. Last Monday I visited her at the club she works at, chatted for a couple of hours, bought her a few drinks and did a few LDs. Tonight we are going out for dinner. I'm buying dinner but there will be no sex involved. We are friendly and we trust each other. That's rare in either the stripping or the escorting game. It's all about being honest with yourself about what you are doing, who you are doing it with and what happens when the time you paid for is up. I think that's probably the case on both sides but I can really only speak from my own experiences and from the lengthy conversations I've had with the ladies I patronize.

FBR
08-27-2006, 08:12 PM
A romantic encounter with a woman somewhat near my age could be a realistic threat to my lifestyle. And I dont want to jeopardize that. OTOH, playing with a woman half my age is ludicrous enough that neither of us could possibly take it seriously.

FBR

Casual Observer
08-27-2006, 09:23 PM
It's all about being honest with yourself about what you are doing, who you are doing it with and what happens when the time you paid for is up. I think that's probably the case on both sides but I can really only speak from my own experiences and from the lengthy conversations I've had with the ladies I patronize.

Agreed in full.

<S> Yoda

smartcookie
08-29-2006, 10:03 PM
i agree, as yoda pointed out, most of a sex worker's customers isn't going to be the homely, socially-inept, cosplaying fanboy. odds are it's some guy already in some kind of relationship looking for a new piece of ass. a man's insatiable appetite for variety is what keeps the world oldest profession in business.

Nope.

It's a guy in a relationship who's not getting any ass or affection from his S.O. That is the average customer - for middle to high end prostitutes.

yoda57us
08-30-2006, 01:27 PM
Nope.

It's a guy in a relationship who's not getting any ass or affection from his S.O. That is the average customer - for middle to high end prostitutes.

I don't completely dissagree with this but my question would be how much of that lack of affection is the result of the guy's outside activities? Ah, the old chicken/egg thing again....

miabella
08-30-2006, 02:47 PM
i will throw out this link about sex workers in foreign climes because i think it's relevant to the larger context of this whole discussion:

http://www-mcnair.berkeley.edu/2001journal/RShaw.html

xdamage
08-30-2006, 06:57 PM
i will throw out this link about sex workers in foreign climes because i think it's relevant to the larger context of this whole discussion:

http://www-mcnair.berkeley.edu/2001journal/RShaw.html

Interesting. I guess again all I can do is comment on:

"According to Troung, sheer economic need combined with American male patronage created a prostitution economy. "

Again we can ask the question, "what-if" men were different? What if men refused to pay for sex? What if men felt it was only appropriate to have sex in a close personal relationship?

The economic need for these women would remain, but prostitution would not be an option. They'd be forced to make their money through other means or suffer with less money (and therefore less of the things that money buys, like food, shelter, etc.)

Would the women be better off or worse off if this line of work was unavailable to them?

And then on a big grey scale, where on one end you have full service prostitutes, and on the other end say stripping but no touching, are the strippers in the United States better off or worse off for having the option to strip (aka, cock grinding lap dancing) for a living?

The only reason the work option exists for strippers is because men are the way men are, yet on the other hand, most strippers argue that men shouldn't be they way they are. Seemingly a case of wanting ones cake and wanting to eat it too.

By the way I'm not being heartless. I do feel compassion for the people in countries were economic needs leave women with a choice of prostitution or starvation, but I guess I'm beginning to think that even in relatively prosperous countries like the United States many women will enter the sex work industry because it appeals to them for personal reasons, or just because the next best choices are less appealing (e.g., for reasons of money, work hours, responsibility to achieve job related goals, etc.) Tell me I'm wrong if I'm wrong, but isn't there some appeal to a job where you get to be focus on sexuality, you have no demands to fill out paper work, no demands to solve tough problems that could cost a customer or your employeer a lot of money if you fuck up, flexible hours, lots of cash (flexible taxes?), etc. I'm pretty sure that in many ways the job, at least from the outsides, appears as low stress for good $$s, which is the kind of thing that appeals to a young person looking for the fastest way to make good money now (vs putting a lot of time in while they are young and expecting to reap the benefits in a higher salery later in life).

8TJ
08-30-2006, 10:35 PM
"According to Troung, sheer economic need combined with American male patronage created a prostitution economy. "



Damn, us Americans invented prostituion too? Wonder what men did before that?




The only reason the work option exists for strippers is because men are the way men are, yet on the other hand, most strippers argue that men shouldn't be they way they are. Seemingly a case of wanting ones cake and wanting to eat it too.


YES !
I made the very dumb mistake of asking an intelligent dancer why she choose to strip. Not a judgemental question just one of curiosity. She tore me a new one saying "Why did I think? Its the f**kn money" Well maybe its the money and you like to dance? I don't know.
I see it this way:
I love my wife / family
I travel a lot on business
I like to see a variety of pretty naked women up close.
I do not want "extras" escorts or OTC
If I can fullfill my desire for some attractive (topless) company, and someone can make $$ out of it, is that not OK?
It seems to me to be a win-win.

I agree ther are guys who will push the rules, but there are dancers that f over customers too. That is life. Move on

>:(

xdamage
08-31-2006, 07:23 AM
Damn, us Americans invented prostituion too? Wonder what men did before that?



Villianizing Americans is popular at the moment >:(

But yea, it's called the oldest profession in the world for a reason and prostitution is prevelant in many cultures (or strongly discouraged because it would be prevelant if social and legal norms in those cultures allowed it).

The thing is mia is right in that sex work can be very hard on a woman and it's definitely not for everyone, but I just find the negative tensions between sex customers and sex workers interesting. They both benefit, yet it's common that sex workers look down on sex customers as losers, and vice-versa.

As for asking the dancer why... There is a lot of stigma associated with being a sex worker, as well as being a customer, but the irony is that if the stigma really did not exist, sex workers would be making very little money. If every women thought no more of selling sex then of working at Walmart, the market would be flooded with lots of beautiful women selling it. And people have a millions of years of evolutionary practice at sex, there are so many women that could do a good job of it if they felt no negative feelings about that it the market would be flooded with sex workers. Competition would make it poor paying option. Yet most sex workers complain about the stigma, yet they don't realize that if it was not for the stigma they wouldn't be paid what they are paid for the job.

mr_punk
08-31-2006, 08:27 PM
It's a guy in a relationship who's not getting any ass or affection from his S.O. That is the average customer - for middle to high end prostitutes.sure, the whole "i'm here because my wife doesn't understand me" bit isn't always CS. OTOH, the ass/affection may be there. however, it's not wrapped up in the package of a younger, fresher, thinner, seemingly affectionate woman with an ego stroke on tap.

i will throw out this link about sex workers in foreign climes because i think it's relevant to the larger context of this whole discussion:i agree. anyway, it was an interesting read. especially, the parts about cultural assumptions of westerners regarding Latin women and sexuality [the PC insertion of the feminist angle was probably mandatory given that it's UC Berkley. although, some of those guys do sound like the Central American version of mark45y]. furthermore, some of the actions described aren't all that different than what you see in a sc or on SCJ. case in point:

Western men appeared enamored by the sensuous actions of sex workers and proclaimed all gestures to be genuine and sincere.how many times has it been pointed out that authenticity seems to be very important to sc customers.

The following is a typical field observation: The sex worker and the "john" are engaged in conversation. Every few moments she nods her head in agreement, smiles, or rubs the manís leg, back, or face when interviewed. Men depicted such physical actions as sensuous, caring, and genuine, steadily perpetuating their cultural stereotypes.no, it's not SS. it's ES, but the difference is in name only.

The "Fantasy Voyage" for many American sex tourists is a self-perpetuating illusion.of course, the F-word. need i say more?

now, that i think about it. i could write a paper like this one. perhaps, i could get UC Berkley to throw me some grant money to go whoremongering...er..i mean, perform intellectual and valuable research into the effects of this oppressively sexist, western, patriarchal form of sexual objectification and sexual imperialism. so, does anyone know how to say "gag reflex" in espanol?