View Full Version : Outside the Club (aka "The Holy Grail")
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Chili Palmer
04-23-2008, 09:55 AM
Sounds like a good explanation why some men would rather seek sex with a stripper, vs the sure-thing they could get from an escort.
Well, seeing as this is my thread, I can tell you you're overthinking the room on this subject. I've done every type of mongering there is. Not saying that as a matter of pride or to brag (because, let's face it, what point is there in bragging about doing something that anyone can do, if they have the means and the opportunity), but simply to state why strippers are my preference.
I've been to Tijuana, and to the club that has all the ladies' panties in a collective bunch on the pink side (save Susan Wayward and a couple others). Adelitos, the Chicago Club and the rest are club/brothels: the hotels for knocking it out are attached to the club. It's inexpensive, but ultimately, even for a Latina lover like me, not very satisfying. It's pretty much the same thing, over and over. The bodies rarely look as good out of clothes as they do in them, they blow you for about 45 seconds, slip the condom on, immediately start to moan like they're in the throes of the biggest "O" of their life just from your presence, then it's 25 minutes of "Are you gonna come, papi?"
Of course, now you have the border issues to deal with, and, unless you live in Southern California or El Paso (trip to Juarez), it's not viable for most mongers on a regular basis.
Next you have the MPs. For a boob lover like me, it's next to impossible to find a nice pair of tits in an MP. There've been a few nice exceptions over the years, but they are rare. AMPs tend to give you a pretty darn good sensual massage before the "flip," and every once in awhile you get a girl who really gets into it, but the bodies tend to resemble each other: A-cups with long nipples, flat asses and a full bush. When you positively, absolutely have to come, an MP is a good choice. And there's the omnipresent threat that the local constabulary has decided to close down the MPs in your area (as what happened in Fullerton, CA a few yeas ago). Don't want to be there when the raid comes.
Next we have the escorts (I am leaving out streetwalkers; that just isn't a real option for a sane monger). They may be independent escorts or belong to a service. Now, with Craigslist and Backpage, you have literally hundreds of options, almost all of them universally unattractive, overweight or obvious ROBs. If you go to the adult malls like eros, cityvibe and/or erotics-usa (among many), you still have to figure out the ROBs from the real ones, are they actually a GFE, etc.
And real ones now want at least 1-2 referrals from another escort before they'll see you. I've never been real comfortable with contacting an escort and saying, in effect, "Hi Trixie. This is CP, We fucked last month but I don't want to fuck you anymore, I want to fuck Pixie. Can I have her call you to confirm that I paid you and didn't try to leave you in a van down by the river? Thanks!"
If you use a service, well, I have two words for you: Elliot Spitzer. You really want to leave a paper trail (electronic or otherwise)? I sure don't. There's also the ROB vs real to deal with here, too. Yes, I am familiar with TER and have used them over the years, but if you knew what I know about the owner of TER you'd be suspicious of those reviews as well. I belong to one of the best monger boards in LA, so I have that option (when I'm in LA, which is not often anymore), but, once again, most don't.
That leaves strippers. I've long maintained (and the ladies on this site have not disabused me of the notion, no matter how hard they try), that women who willingly and of their own free will get involved in the sex industry because they actually like sex more than the average woman. When you're in a club, there's no hiding the scars, the stretchmarks or the flab, so you know exactly what you're getting. In the VIP, you find out what they like or don't like (or more accurately, what they are willing to do), which means you know what you're going to get. Now, it's simply a matter of finding the girl who is willing to OTC with you, and finding a price. Personally, I have no problem slightly overpaying above the local POP, as it is a premium service.
To sum up, with strippers, you know what you are paying for, you know what you are going to get, and the only info she has on you is a cell phone number (and vice versa). THAT is why I prefer strippers to all other avenues of adult services.
CP
Casual Observer
04-23-2008, 11:06 AM
I've long maintained (and the ladies on this site have not disabused me of the notion, no matter how hard they try), that women who willingly and of their own free will get involved in the sex industry because they actually like sex more than the average woman.
Have to agree. It's almost like a self-selecting industry in that respect.
yoda57us
04-23-2008, 03:02 PM
Since these women go to such extreme lengths of mental agility to convince themselves they aren't actually being paid for the sex they are providing to their client they can't very well treat said client like a john. To do so would puncture the bubble of their illusion. So the client gets treated more like a boy-friend, or a friend with benefits. The sex is usually much more "real" feeling than with providers who cut off their mental selves from the client. Something this type of stripper/provider can not do because, again, dropping a wall in front of her psyche is an admission that the sex that is taking place is purely a commercial act and that would make her a prostitute and in her mind she is no such thing.
Frankly GR I think you are putting yourself through an awful lot of mental gymnastics simply to make yourself feel like you are getting paid sex that is somehow more genuine in intent. It's not. Women who have sex for money do it first and foremost for the money. I have found many paid escorts who absolutely love men, love sex and we have a great time together. Now, quite honestly, I have seen escorts who did or do strip as well but one really has nothing to do with the other. None of these ladies are attempting to kid themselves about what they do or why they do it. Sex for profit is sex for profit. Weather a lady is good at selling the fantasy or not really has nothing to do with any other occupation that she may also be involved in.
xdamage
04-23-2008, 03:46 PM
To sum up, with strippers, you know what you are paying for, you know what you are going to get, and the only info she has on you is a cell phone number (and vice versa). THAT is why I prefer strippers to all other avenues of adult services.
CP
True. I've said in the same in the past. It is a good reason. SCs give the guy plenty of time to "shop" for what he wants in a relatively risk free way.
yoda57us
04-23-2008, 04:31 PM
I'm not sure where the notion of "knowing what you are getting" comes from when it comes to OTC sex with strippers. How exactly do you know anything other than what she looks like? OK, if she is a fav you have figured out if you get along with her or not but honestly, how often do you convince a fav to have OTC with you vs. simply going with the first stripper that says yes?
Maybe I'm coming at this from a different POV but I've never had much luck convincing my ATF's to have sex with me OTC...Probably because I don't try. The dancers who have offered OTC sex have pretty much been women that I wasn't interested in. I would much rather research an escort who has the look that I prefer and good reviews than take a chance on a stranger who happens to look good naked.
As far as the whole exchange of information factor, I don't fill out internet forms or surrender work information. I see ladies who are willing to accept my cell number and my real first asnd last name. That's it!
Hey, to each his own and all but I really don't see taking home a stripper as any sort of guarantee of a quality experience.
I had a nice HG with Miss D today. She exceeded her mpop average and with all the associated juiciness. The 19th hole shower conversation afterwards was particularly interesting. Life is good.
FBR
xdamage
04-24-2008, 04:11 PM
I'm not sure where the notion of "knowing what you are getting" comes from when it comes to OTC sex with strippers. How exactly do you know anything other than what she looks like?
It's not absolute assurance, but on a gray scale it could be worse:
Much Worse -
Ordering an escort over the phone, have no idea what she looks like, or you will enjoy her personality or have any chemistry.
Worse -
Arranging an escort over the internet. You have photos but no real knowing if you feel any chemistry or hit it off.
Somewhat worse -
Picking up an escort at a hotel bar. You know what she looks like, have some sense of her personality, but have little or no idea if the chemistry will be good physically.
And on the gray scale there is better, such as:
Better -
Spending $40 on a stripper for a couple laps, only to realize, it's good thing you didn't blow $300 because you really have no chemistry.
Better Still -
Spending $40 on a stripper for a couple laps, realizing you have good chemistry and it's worth spending more.
So if you look at it as black or white, and expect an absolute assurance that OTC with a stripper will be good, then it makes no sense. If you see it as probabilities based on information you gather in the club, before taking OTC, as a gray scale of much worse options to better, then it makes sense.
yoda57us
04-24-2008, 05:39 PM
It's not absolute assurance, but on a gray scale it could be worse:
Much Worse -
Ordering an escort over the phone, have no idea what she looks like, or you will enjoy her personality or have any chemistry.
I agree, but nobody really does this anymore...
Arranging an escort over the internet. You have photos but no real knowing if you feel any chemistry or hit it off.
First of all we are not talking about a girlfriend here, we are talking about paid sex. "Chemistry" is simply good acting weather she is a stripper who escorts or just an escort. If I see a lady with the look I like and ten or fifteen good reviews on TER I'm really not gambling all that much that the sex will be good...and the sex is what I am paying for.
Picking up an escort at a hotel bar. You know what she looks like, have some sense of her personality, but have little or no idea if the chemistry will be good physically.
Again, it's an acting job. Honestly, I'm hard pressed to see the difference between this option and picking up a stripper that you met at the club.
Spending $40 on a stripper for a couple laps, realizing you have good chemistry and it's worth spending more.
Of course! That is what she is trying to get you to do! Again, where is the idea coming from that this gal is going to be any better in the sack than the escort you met at the hotel bar?
So if you look at it as black or white, and expect an absolute assurance that OTC with a stripper will be good, then it makes no sense. If you see it as probabilities based on information you gather in the club, before taking OTC, as a gray scale of much worse options to better, then it makes sense.
Well, nothing about this sort of thing is black or white and there certainly are no absolutes. I think we probably agree on this. I would humbly submit to you however that I do or have done all of the above and a lot more looking for strange pussy while I'm fairly confident that you have not. I can tell you that the gray scale of probability will vary in every situation depending on where you are and how badly you want it! Again, "Chemistry" in this case simply means the sex was fun. This can be very easily achieved with two like minded consenting adult strangers who have nothing more in common than the need to get off and the need to earn a living.
Golden_Rule
04-25-2008, 05:33 PM
I'm not sure where the notion of "knowing what you are getting" comes from when it comes to OTC sex with strippers. How exactly do you know anything other than what she looks like? OK, if she is a fav you have figured out if you get along with her or not but honestly, how often do you convince a fav to have OTC with you vs. simply going with the first stripper that says yes?
Maybe I'm coming at this from a different POV but I've never had much luck convincing my ATF's to have sex with me OTC...Probably because I don't try. The dancers who have offered OTC sex have pretty much been women that I wasn't interested in. I would much rather research an escort who has the look that I prefer and good reviews than take a chance on a stranger who happens to look good naked.
As far as the whole exchange of information factor, I don't fill out internet forms or surrender work information. I see ladies who are willing to accept my cell number and my real first asnd last name. That's it!
Hey, to each his own and all but I really don't see taking home a stripper as any sort of guarantee of a quality experience.
I go out with escorts I'm on the clock. An hour is usually an hour. Sometimes the sex is great, sometimes it is mechanical, but its almost always commerical. No real passion.
I go out with stippers on what I know is P4P and what they see as a "date" and we have dinner, go to a nice hotel, usually have pretty good sex with lots of kissing, real passion, and there is no clock.
Big enough difference to make me notice. :)
I frequently spend less money too when talking about 4+ hour "dates" with strippers.
yoda57us
04-25-2008, 06:05 PM
I go out with escorts I'm on the clock. An hour is usually an hour. Sometimes the sex is great, sometimes it is mechanical, but its almost always commerical. No real passion.
I go out with stippers on what I know is P4P and what they see as a "date" and we have dinner, go to a nice hotel, usually have pretty good sex with lots of kissing, real passion, and there is no clock.
Big enough difference to make me notice. :)
I frequently spend less money too when talking about 4+ hour "dates" with strippers.
What you are describing as your typical P4P "date" with a stripper is exactly what I do with my ATF escorts GR. No, not the first time I see a new lady of course but with the ones that I click with. Your stripper is not seeing it as a "date" any more than my escort is. If you want to believe that then go ahead but the bottom line is still the same. The ladies know why they are there. Of course, in both your case and mine, if the lady is giving that great of a ROI it is obvious that she is also enjoying the company of the person that she is with.
It's the singer not the song GR. That's all I'm saying.
threlayer
04-29-2008, 03:15 PM
If, after say 8-10 lap dance sessions with a stripper, you don't know, first, if there's any mutual chemistry, and, second, if she's interested in OTC activities (P4P or whatever), and, third, whether she's game for your game, then you haven't been doing your homework, or she's not going to cooperate. Has nothing to do with an ATF, unless you are exclusive at various clubs (why?). I believe that if the two of you are flexible, something mutually satisfying can be worked out.
And if it doesn't work out, well, no other attempt will have 100% probability of success anyway. And after all, you are not bound to this one forever, as it isn't a contract. Well, at least it isn't intended to lead to any other committment, though, because this isn't exactly a professional encounter, one can never really know.
With a professional, a real one, at least you are pretty well assured that your relationship is predictable. And that no insanity is an unintended part of the bargain that may lead to others getting involved, particularly Mr LEO.
yoda57us
04-29-2008, 03:50 PM
Good points Three layer.
I have actually found that the "ATF" stripper types (at least mine) are less likely to end up as OTC P4P playmates. Obviously this has as much to do with my approach as it does with the woman involved. I'm not predatory by nature in the clubs. As much fun as I have doing laps and spending time with my ATF's they are never genraly interested in OTC sex and that's fine with me. The one fav that was proved to be way more of a drama queen than I was willing to deal with. It simply wasn't worth it.
I go to the club to relax and unwind. I call en escort when I want to get laid.
The assumption that I see people making here is that you can't have a regular lady or two...or three or four...that you call when you want to have some NSA fun. Simply not the case. Yes, there is a selection process involved but it is really not all that different from going to a club and finding a dancer that you like.
Golden_Rule
04-29-2008, 09:59 PM
What you are describing as your typical P4P "date" with a stripper is exactly what I do with my ATF escorts GR. No, not the first time I see a new lady of course but with the ones that I click with. Your stripper is not seeing it as a "date" any more than my escort is. If you want to believe that then go ahead but the bottom line is still the same. The ladies know why they are there. Of course, in both your case and mine, if the lady is giving that great of a ROI it is obvious that she is also enjoying the company of the person that she is with.
It's the singer not the song GR. That's all I'm saying.
I'm not going by anything other than what they say about what we are doing, Yoda. I know its P4P and I know they know it somewhere, but when they talk about it they make it sound like we are just friends who became so from meeting in a strip-club.
I am convinced that many, not all - maybe not even most, need this bit of illusion to be able to cope with getting paid to have sex. The difference between them and the average escort is that most escorts advertise for customers and take what comes along. These gals pick and choose from their S-C meetings for customers to take to the next level. So they feel that gives them the right to say to themselves they are not prostitutes. Just allowing the occasional "nice older gentleman" to become friendly with them and exchange gifts. ::)
Hey, what ever works for them.
Susan Wayward
04-30-2008, 01:53 AM
I am convinced that many, not all - maybe not even most, need this bit of illusion to be able to cope with getting paid to have sex.
Just like some johns need the illusion that they're just giving gifts to nice young ladies to cope with paying for sex. Not a surprising idea.
yoda57us
04-30-2008, 07:47 AM
Just like some johns need the illusion that they're just giving gifts to nice young ladies to cope with paying for sex. Not a surprising idea.
BINGO!
yoda57us
04-30-2008, 07:57 AM
These gals pick and choose from their S-C meetings for customers to take to the next level. So they feel that gives them the right to say to themselves they are not prostitutes. Just allowing the occasional "nice older gentleman" to become friendly with them and exchange gifts. ::)
GR, there are things that we as customers know to be facts and things that we HOPE are the truth. The fact is you don't know how "selective" any of these ladies is. All you know to be fact is that you are paying her to have sex with you and she is good at it. Let me be clear here. I could care less what kind of mental games either you or the lady has to play to have a good time. That is part of the deal. I do it all the time myself.
For every story that you can tell me about why paying a stripper for sex is somehow more special than paying an escort I can can tell you a story about why the opposite may be true. I do know a few ladies who have done both and, to be quite honest, every one of them prefers escorting. Why? Because there is no BS.
Eric Stoner
04-30-2008, 09:58 AM
GR, there are things that we as customers know to be facts and things that we HOPE are the truth. The fact is you don't know how "selective" any of these ladies is. All you know to be fact is that you are paying her to have sex with you and she is good at it. Let me be clear here. I could care less what kind of mental games either you or the lady has to play to have a good time. That is part of the deal. I do it all the time myself.
For every story that you can tell me about why paying a stripper for sex is somehow more special than paying an escort I can can tell you a story about why the opposite may be true. I do know a few ladies who have done both and, to be quite honest, every one of them prefers escorting. Why? Because there is no BS.
I don't think any topic generates more serious discussion than this particular one and as usual, the ladies stay COMPLETELY out of it. It's perfectly understandable
that they'd prefer to discuss "Sugar Daddies" than OTC. Afaik some of them are telling others and themselves that no sex is involved. That they just had their rent paid or got a new leased car without a quid pro quo. Possible ? ; Yes. Likely ? I don't think so. Not when I saw a LOT of known providers on one of the
SD sites.
When it comes to dating dancers; my encounters have broken down about 50 -50 between P 4 P and gratis. Most of the dancers I've seen for P 4 P have been selective and none of them were particularly cheap. From my talking to them they DO see what they do as escorting but on a more casual, relaxed and informal basis. Sometimes we just get together to work on our indoor skin diving but usually there's a lot more involved. Lunch, Dinner, a day at the beach etc. All off the clock btw. You may look at it any way you like but why would she spend so much time with me; sometimes a full day and a couple of times an overnight sleepover unless she was genuinely enjoying my company ? It's not unheard of for something similar to happen with an escort ( I've gotten more than my share of Off The Clock time ) but it's a LOT less frequent.
With the ladies who see me gratis; it's not necessarily cheaper from my pov. They're the ones I go on vacation with and give the expensive presents to but I just can't equate them with escorts or dancers doing P 4 P. If it puts me in the SD category then I'm certainly collecting serious bennies but I've had a number of serious relationships where I certainly didn't splurge. More importantly, I prefer not to keep score.
My basic point is that there's a broad spectrum of possible relationships out there and some do not neatly fit into pre-conceived categories. Rather than focus on labeling people and what they're doing; I say: ENJOY ! ENJOY ! ENJOY !
xdamage
04-30-2008, 10:33 AM
Of course! That is what she is trying to get you to do! Again, where is the idea coming from that this gal is going to be any better in the sack than the escort you met at the hotel bar?
To be fair, you may well be correct. I don't use escorts, and don't have sex with strippers for various reasons.
Still, if I was looking for paid for sex, I think I'd prefer to start with a stripper, see if we had chemistry (yep, even if it is an act, I'd be hopeful that act carries over into other activities). I see it as a relatively cheap way of screening if I was inclined to take it that far. Of course the reality may be that once it comes to hitting the sheets the whole act breaks down... and it is mechanical. I have no direct experience to confirm or dis-confirm that notion.
Eric Stoner
04-30-2008, 11:58 AM
To be fair, you may well be correct. I don't use escorts, and don't have sex with strippers for various reasons.
Still, if I was looking for paid for sex, I think I'd prefer to start with a stripper, see if we had chemistry (yep, even if it is an act, I'd be hopeful that act carries over into other activities). I see it as a relatively cheap way of screening if I was inclined to take it that far. Of course the reality may be that once it comes to hitting the sheets the whole act breaks down... and it is mechanical. I have no direct experience to confirm or dis-confirm that notion.
The only "mechanical" experiences I've had were with escorts. NONE of the dancers I 've been with was a dud. Not one.
yoda57us
04-30-2008, 12:54 PM
Still, if I was looking for paid for sex, I think I'd prefer to start with a stripper, see if we had chemistry (yep, even if it is an act, I'd be hopeful that act carries over into other activities). I see it as a relatively cheap way of screening if I was inclined to take it that far. Of course the reality may be that once it comes to hitting the sheets the whole act breaks down... and it is mechanical. I have no direct experience to confirm or dis-confirm that notion.
To be honest X I DID start with strippers. I didn't find it cheaper as it usually cost me a VIP room or two to even find out if OTC was possible. Unless the girl is just a strait-out hooker using the club to find customers (which other dancers will hate her for by the way) she is not going to just walk up to you and offer OTC after a $20 dance. Now, your second point is dead on which is the basis of my entire argument. The sex could suck. Now, it is true that you could hire a bad escort and the sex could suck too but again, my only argument here is that there are no guarantees either way.
Eric Stoner
04-30-2008, 01:00 PM
To be honest X I DID start with strippers. I didn't find it cheaper as it usually cost me a VIP room or two to even find out if OTC was possible. Unless the girl is just a strait-out hooker using the club to find customers (which other dancers will hate her for by the way) she is not going to just walk up to you and offer OTC after a $20 dance. Now, your second point is dead on which is the basis of my entire argument. The sex could suck. Now, it is true that you could hire a bad escort and the sex could suck too but again, my only argument here is that there are no guarantees either way.
Of course there are no guarantees. When are there ever ? And yes, OTC requires an investment of time and money to build a rapport and explore the possibilities.
yoda57us
04-30-2008, 01:10 PM
Sometimes we just get together to work on our indoor skin diving but usually there's a lot more involved. Lunch, Dinner, a day at the beach etc. All off the clock btw. You may look at it any way you like but why would she spend so much time with me; sometimes a full day and a couple of times an overnight sleepover unless she was genuinely enjoying my company ? It's not unheard of for something similar to happen with an escort ( I've gotten more than my share of Off The Clock time ) but it's a LOT less frequent.
Well again, you are assuming, as others seem to be, that this sort of casual encounter doesn't happen with escorts as well. I am here to tell you that it can and does. I have a favorite lady that I visit in South Jersey when I am working in the area. A typical "2 hour appointment" Consists of a quickie in my hotel room late afternoon after I check in, dinner, drinks, back to the room for a more extended session and, if her X has the kid, most likely an overnight stay with breakfast in the morning before I head back to Boston exhausted from the adventure. Does every escort I see give me an overnighter for the cost of a two hour date? Well of course not but I honestly doubt that every woman that you pay for sex does either. I fully agree that the gal would not spend that amount of time with a guy that she didn't like. However, she wouldn't be spending ANY with said guy if he wasn't paying her for the sex. Let's not lose sight of that.
With the ladies who see me gratis; it's not necessarily cheaper from my pov. They're the ones I go on vacation with and give the expensive presents to but I just can't equate them with escorts or dancers doing P 4 P. If it puts me in the SD category then I'm certainly collecting serious bennies but I've had a number of serious relationships where I certainly didn't splurge. More importantly, I prefer not to keep score.
Well if it's free it's free...Of course, it's also irrelevant to the discussion here.
My basic point is that there's a broad spectrum of possible relationships out there and some do not neatly fit into pre-conceived categories. Rather than focus on labeling people and what they're doing; I say: ENJOY ! ENJOY ! ENJOY !
Well, that is pretty much what I am saying as well. The problem I'm having here is that you guys seem to think that only strippers should be the ones who are not labeled.
Golden_Rule
05-01-2008, 12:23 AM
Just like some johns need the illusion that they're just giving gifts to nice young ladies to cope with paying for sex. Not a surprising idea.
I don't disagree.
I think men and women are very similar in what we want. We might use different means to get at it, but our desires are very similar.
I, personally, am all in favor of just calling it what it is. I think society in general would be healthier for it. I see no problem in one person having something someone else wants, and providing no one is taking advantage of the other [which might be an issue that would come up in, say, the selling of a kidney for instance], providing that something as a service.
I see legitimate, legal, professional prostitution as a service industry. Nothing more. Nothing less. And if properly supervised by uncorrupted people something that could do nothing but help most persons involved up until the point they no longer wished to be involved any more. In which case they stop.
Of course that isn't apt to happen in the good ol' U.S. of A. The closest thing we have to it is certain counties in Nevada, but you can't actually say they are being run by incorruptible sorts who take no advantage of the personal they bring in to supply the services.
Under the best circumstances I see it as a state sanctioned, and licensed, service like a physical therapist would be. The state providing ground rules for minimal training [instruction in the use of condoms, etc, and health certification]. The service would be taxed. Fees and taxes would provide the means for public health clinics, training and placement for sex workers looking to change life paths, etc. Thus people who didn't want to be involved with it wouldn't have to see it, as it would be zoned into distinct areas specifically for it [red light districts] and wouldn't have to pay with their tax dollar for it, as they do now. The people involved and benefiting from it would foot most of the bill.
Seems like a common sense solution to me, but what do I know. I was just the guy with the shovel who comes around after the fact and cleans up. ;)
Golden_Rule
05-01-2008, 01:20 AM
GR, there are things that we as customers know to be facts and things that we HOPE are the truth. The fact is you don't know how "selective" any of these ladies is. All you know to be fact is that you are paying her to have sex with you and she is good at it. Let me be clear here. I could care less what kind of mental games either you or the lady has to play to have a good time. That is part of the deal. I do it all the time myself.
I never said I knew. I suggested it is educated guessing based on a knowledge of human dynamics born, dare I say it, in twenty-five years of figuring out when people were lying to me and when they were telling the truth. Something I got paid to do and paid to be more right than wrong [a lot more right then wrong].
[paragraph deleted... if you saw it you saw it but it amounted to a resume and it was truly TMI. There just aren't that many people who did what I did -retired- and do what I do -semi-retired- and if I go into it in depth, as I did, I might as well give you my name and address]
I am not saying you should care though. I thought SOME might be interested for the same reasons I am. Because how people work is very interesting stuff.
I know I am ALWAYS interested in who we are and why we do what we do.
For every story that you can tell me about why paying a stripper for sex is somehow more special than paying an escort I can can tell you a story about why the opposite may be true. I do know a few ladies who have done both and, to be quite honest, every one of them prefers escorting. Why? Because there is no BS.
You are putting feelings in my keyboard. I am not claiming its special. I'm not claiming anything about strippers v. escorts at all. Though it might make an interesting topic if you want to bring it up.
I'm talking about US and how we interact with those we are doing these "things" with. You are taking an attempt at a clinical discussion and turning it into the stuff of a Penthouse Forum letter.
Again, I'm just talking about US. The whys, hows, what fores. The irony in some of it [most of it?]. The humor sometimes. The pain in others. Even the occasional joy. What makes us, "us".
If its too complex for the room I apologize. [sorry, that was my frustration popping out]
Look, when I'm just being "a guy" I'll hold up a sign. When I am being a social scientist I'll hold up another one. :) If there is any cross over, which being human I am sure I am capable of since we are talking about strip-clubs and sex and I enjoy them as much as want to understand them so ... I can "cross talk" on the subject without knowing it I suppose, I apologize yet again.
OK?
Peace.
TMI, I am sure, but I was just trying to get you to see how *I* tick.
Golden_Rule
05-01-2008, 01:30 AM
And a final BTW.
In the event that it might be me let me admit that I am use to getting paid for being the "expert" in the room.
I try very hard not to let that fact affect me in any way but if it is noticeable in any bit of arrogance, or pomposity, I humbly and totally apologize for that as well.
I don't know how much more I can prostrate myself for you, but understand when I'm talking in clinical terms I do have a hint of what I am talking about. Also know though that if I ask questions, like I have in many posts, I legitimately want your input because I can't learn anything about US [and me] without asking questions [of myself, and others like me]. The kind of stuff we're taking about ain't in books. :) I want to know what you know because that is how I increase my own knowledge. Which to me is as much a joy as it is a profession.
Humbly and sincerely wishing you all very well...
Golden_Rule
05-01-2008, 01:52 AM
When it comes to dating dancers; my encounters have broken down about 50 -50 between P 4 P and gratis. Most of the dancers I've seen for P 4 P have been selective and none of them were particularly cheap. From my talking to them they DO see what they do as escorting but on a more casual, relaxed and informal basis. Sometimes we just get together to work on our indoor skin diving but usually there's a lot more involved. Lunch, Dinner, a day at the beach etc. All off the clock btw. You may look at it any way you like but why would she spend so much time with me; sometimes a full day and a couple of times an overnight sleepover unless she was genuinely enjoying my company ? It's not unheard of for something similar to happen with an escort ( I've gotten more than my share of Off The Clock time ) but it's a LOT less frequent.
Since someone is discussing the process re escorts v strippers:
I think it, if anything, breaks down this way. [educated guessing going on]
Escorts think of it in terms of time, not sex. So it is less frequent for them to give away their time because they believe they ought to be compensated for it. Strippers, doing escorting outside the club, think of it in terms of the sex. So they expect to be paid for that, but they see the clubs, fine dining, good hotels, as bennies associated with what they are doing and if they enjoy that and your company it is no skin off their nose if they 'give that away' because they enjoy it as much as we do.
Because I can tell they are thinking that way, and just enjoying it for what it is and not giving it an "on the clock" feel, I enjoy it more too. If they don't give it that feel, and I can usually tell because they'll give it away if they do feel that way, its not someone I'm going to be seeing very long.
As for me, all my sexual encounters with dancers are paid. Even when I have had offers because we've enjoyed each other's company in the past and she considers herself already well remunerated. It is that way because, candidly, I need the buffer. The money creates a hard line for me that segregates, in my funny way of looking at it, as different from sex I have in my love relationships. That makes it Ok.
I fully admit it is an irony and even somewhat hypocritical, and perhaps preposterous because my wife certainly wouldn't see it as OK because I paid for it. I just need something to keep it separate and to remind me this is someone I should not become romantically attached to. Nothing more emotional than simple friendship. It's probably not good for her [in fact I am sure the thought never crosses her mind], and its definitely not good for me.
Hey, what ever works, right? [Holding, "This is the Guy talking" sign up] :)
We have a mutual acquaintance, in your line of work, who handles it the same way. He knows its silly too. [He was around here for awhile, but when he tried to talk about it he got frustrated and left]
It is what it is.
Golden_Rule
05-01-2008, 02:16 AM
Well, that is pretty much what I am saying as well. The problem I'm having here is that you guys seem to think that only strippers should be the ones who are not labeled.
I know that isn't what I am saying.
I can't speak for Eric, but I do know him and we've talked about stuff like this in other venues for awhile now and I am more than fairly sure he isn't into labeling folks either.
Again, we are just talking in generalities trying to get a handle on the dynamics involved in how this unfolds.
Because 1) it is interesting. 2) if you can understand it you have a better chance of reproducing it. 3) if someone else is interesting in experiencing it, if the dynamic is documented and a working model is established they have a better chance of reproducing the same results experienced by others.
[I know the clinical sounding language is weird when used to describe what we are talking about, but I hope you understand it's just easier for me to use it because its what I am use to]
yoda57us
05-01-2008, 04:45 AM
If its too complex for the room I apologize. [sorry, that was my frustration popping out]
Look, when I'm just being "a guy" I'll hold up a sign. When I am being a social scientist I'll hold up another one. :) If there is any cross over, which being human I am sure I am capable of since we are talking about strip-clubs and sex and I enjoy them as much as want to understand them so ... I can "cross talk" on the subject without knowing it I suppose, I apologize yet again.
OK?
Peace.
TMI, I am sure, but I was just trying to get you to see how *I* tick.
Oh GR please just get over yourself OK? I could care less about when you are being all intelligent, superior and clinical or when you are just being a guy. This is a discussion board and I come here for one simple reason: to discuss. I respond to what others post with my opinions. I don't know anything about your back ground and I really don't care. It doesn't effect my perception of your posts or how I respond to them.
threlayer
05-01-2008, 08:44 AM
Just like some johns need the illusion that they're just giving gifts to nice young ladies to cope with paying for sex. Not a surprising idea.
That's certainly a frequent happening, I'd guess. But some guys are just naturally affectionate to gals who will do them, and they may even have genuine affection to those providers of the elusive "GFE." Certanly it would be better for them if they had a 'real' GF on whom they could direct their attentions. But sadly many don't. As long as they are realistic about their expectations, I dont really see any harm nor do they deserve direspect.
yoda57us
05-01-2008, 11:03 AM
That's certainly a frequent happening, I'd guess. But some guys are just naturally affectionate to gals who will do them, and they may even have genuine affection to those providers of the elusive "GFE." Certanly it would be better for them if they had a 'real' GF on whom they could direct their attentions. But sadly many don't.
Well, truthfully I think you would find that most of the guys who do P4P have someone at home who's back they are running around behind...In my experience most women who sell sex prefer doing it to married men as they are less likely to get stalkerish or try to turn into a boyfriend.
As long as they are realistic about their expectations, I don't really see any harm nor do they deserve direspect.
I agree, I don't see any reason to disrespect anyone on either the buying or selling side here...some parable about walking a mile in someone else's shoes comes to mind...
Golden_Rule
05-01-2008, 01:56 PM
Oh GR please just get over yourself OK? I could care less about when you are being all intelligent, superior and clinical or when you are just being a guy. This is a discussion board and I come here for one simple reason: to discuss. I respond to what others post with my opinions. I don't know anything about your back ground and I really don't care. It doesn't effect my perception of your posts or how I respond to them.
You'll have to take my word for this [or not] but I don't feel superior to anyone.
I have all sorts of book learning, and all manner of field practical, and all it has taught me is I don't know all that much about anything.
Other than the knowledge that learning how to duck by osmosis is better then learning by getting knocked on the head. Easier on the head too. :)
yoda57us
05-01-2008, 02:44 PM
You'll have to take my word for this [or not] but I don't feel superior to anyone.
Well, It really doesn't matter what you tell me GR, I will continue to read your posts and think what I think, lol, as you will about me...
I have all sorts of book learning, and all manner of field practical, and all it has taught me is I don't know all that much about anything. Other than the knowledge that learning how to duck by osmosis is better then learning by getting knocked on the head. Easier on the head too. :)
Well see, there ya' go, on this we completely agree...Ya' don't have to get hit by a bus to know that it's gonna hurt...
threlayer
05-02-2008, 05:55 AM
Well, truthfully I think you would find that most of the guys who do P4P have someone at home who's back they are running around behind....
Hence the disrespect of society that sees selling it as destabilizing to family life, as if there aren't already other significant destabilizing factors.
yoda57us
05-02-2008, 07:14 AM
Hence the disrespect of society that sees selling it as destabilizing to family life, as if there aren't already other significant destabilizing factors.
I completely agree. That is also, in my mind at least, the primary reason why prostitution will never be accepted by the public at large or legalized in this country.
threlayer
05-02-2008, 09:16 AM
Maybe the key to this legal situation is untraceable, non-monetary bartering of some sort to be worked out. That's just friends with lots of benefits really. SPs do need cash as do the rest of us, but we all need services.
yoda57us
05-02-2008, 11:52 AM
Lol, You are dreaming my friend....Bartering is not even allowed to be discussed on TER.
Besides, the simple fact is that, despite recent news-worthy events, the majority of cash exchanged for sex is just that, cash exchanged for sex. There is no written record that can trace a client to a provider. Any agency dumb enough to accept credit cards should be avoided like the plague and any customer dumb enough to leave a paper trail deserves whatever fate befalls him.
It would be nice if all of this was legal but it's not and probably never will be. The fact is however that women and men exchange money for sex every day and relatively few of them ever get caught. As long as both parties use their heads and don't get stupid or greedy it's not that difficult.
threlayer
05-04-2008, 11:13 AM
Bartering is not even allowed to be discussed on TER.
I never said it had to be discussed in public. Yes, I'm inexperienced when it comes to the hobby. But not when it comes to taking advantage of loopholes and oversights.
Like you, I believe in this country the nationwide legality of 'prostitution' will never be achieved.
But the fact is that 'sex for money' takes place everyday in a roundabout way that is considered legitimate.
Like an implied (1) I'll take you to a great restaurant and that concert you wanted to attend and then we'll have sex for the whole night.> Or (2) <You marry me and take care of all my financial needs that you can, and I'll have sex with you all the time. I 'promise.'>
(These examples cover both short and long term alliances, but mostly the finances are implied, not discussed, and they don't necessarily have to directly follow a cash transfer.)
yoda57us
05-04-2008, 04:54 PM
Like an implied (1) I'll take you to a great restaurant and that concert you wanted to attend and then we'll have sex for the whole night.> Or (2) <You marry me and take care of all my financial needs that you can, and I'll have sex with you all the time. I 'promise.'>
(These examples cover both short and long term alliances, but mostly the finances are implied, not discussed, and they don't necessarily have to directly follow a cash transfer.)
I understand what you are suggesting but you are missing the point of why women sell sex. It is not to make a few extra bucks, it is how they make a living, a substantial living in most cases. Escorts are not going to forgo cash, they don't have to. They are not going to sleep with bank presidents in exchange for mortgage payments or supermarket managers in exchange for food. They are simply going to go right on charging cash by the hour the way they do now.
miabella
05-04-2008, 11:02 PM
i no longer remember, but if a dancer has provided the holy grail, can she post that here?
Susan Wayward
05-04-2008, 11:09 PM
Oh, please, do you really think they're gonna kick you out of the thread for that? :P
If memory serves, IACali posted a HG report. Maybe Kat, too? Can't think of any others.
Golden_Rule
05-05-2008, 01:17 AM
...any customer dumb enough to leave a paper trail deserves whatever fate befalls him.
Actually the paper trail connecting client to prostitute is frequently in the tangential details, not direct payment to the working gal.
Hotel records and credit card receipts for associated expenses. Local telephone usagage reports [LUDS]. Ezpass record.
Ask any good private detective or divorce attorney.
SportsWriter2
05-05-2008, 04:49 AM
i no longer remember, but if a dancer has provided the holy grail, can she post that here?
Yes she can. However, the fade to black (FTB) details are usually sent by PM to those who have expressed interested. :)
threlayer
05-05-2008, 06:18 AM
Yoda, I agree that all their financial needs cannot be met by conventional bartering. But gals, even civvies, get guys to go shopping with them all the time. now, probably we all have experience in this. With creativity, some legal bargaining/paying can be done. In most all societies, sex is a female-controlled commodity in some major way. Where it isn't controlled, well, that's where I want to move.
yoda57us
05-05-2008, 04:15 PM
Actually the paper trail connecting client to prostitute is frequently in the tangential details, not direct payment to the working gal.
I agree GR. I am fortunate in that I travel quite a bit for work and don't have to worry to much about hotel issues. Phone records and even email are another issue but a record of a phone call or an email address being on a gal's computer is not damning evidence by itself.
A credit card charge to "escorts R us" on the other hand is just asking for trouble...
Yoda, I agree that all their financial needs cannot be met by conventional bartering. But gals, even civvies, get guys to go shopping with them all the time. now, probably we all have experience in this. With creativity, some legal bargaining/paying can be done. In most all societies, sex is a female-controlled commodity in some major way. Where it isn't controlled, well, that's where I want to move.
TL, we are not talking about civvies here. These women are in business. The accepted form of payment is cash. What is interesting to me is that it is always the customers who come up with this idea and never the women...
I don't really see what your last statement has to do with any of this but I doubt you will find such a place...good luck though.
xdamage
05-07-2008, 06:26 AM
i no longer remember, but if a dancer has provided the holy grail, can she post that here?
It may not be good for her virtual persona depending on who reads it, and what they feel about that, but I don't believe Jay or FBR have set down any rules preventing it.
Docido
05-08-2008, 05:51 PM
Also, all the dancer Holy Grails that have ever been posted here were quickly deleted by the authors.
Golden_Rule
05-09-2008, 03:26 AM
There is a bit of business coming to pass that even I have to admit is a bit twisted, even for me.
While I have said I don't have a "regular" club I have to say that isn't quite true. I do have one place I hang out more than any place else but it is not really a strip-club the way it is frequently meant here. It is a bikini bar with no lap dancing.
It has local gals who dance. It serves good food. It is owned by a husband and wife, not wanna be wise guys. The wife is a former dancer herself. It is a total throwback of a place. A true neighborhood bar that just happens to have go-go dancers.
Well, I've dated a dancer or two from this place in the past and I am dating two of them now. One I have been dating for quite some time. The other only recently.
The one I have been dating longer is in her early 40s but would easily pass for a much younger woman. She is in such great shape that I am envious of how well she keeps herself. I've seen her off campus any number of times and we have a mutually satisfying, mutually helpful, arrangement.
The other dancer I first met in another club nearby. She is 19. A college student. Very pretty. A deep thinker who I enjoy talking to. I only started seeing her very recently. While we were out last time [three days ago] we had sex. I wasn't going to go there because she is so young but she offered [did I mention she is very attractive] and I am a bit soft in the head when hard in the penis. She's been dancing in the same club as the other woman I am seeing for a couple of months now but never the same days as the other dancer.
There is one other little detail: They are mother and daughter, and yes they live in the same house.
While everything, excepting for the "helping" part, is totally legal [both situations very much mutual consenting adults] I just don't know where this is heading. Both are very sort of free spirits. Very much "free love" types. Sort of like hippies that fell through the crack of time into the early 21st century. So who knows... Mom might be totally cool about it. Then again...
I know her daughter has no plans on sharing this bit of info with her mother. I know the mother doesn't talk about what she does with me with her daughter. They never dance on the same days in this club because neither wants to see the other work. I suppose I could go on for some time with neither finding out about it.
I'm standing close to the edge of a ledge here and I'm concerned I may fall off of it. If I haven't already. It's not like I fear any harm coming to me, and I know I mean none to either of them. It could blow up my favorite place to just sit and look at pretty women dance in bikinis, and the "ugly custie" factor isn't lost on me.
The worst part is the little devil on my shoulder egging me on to try and see if they'd ever do a mother-daughter threesome. [I know... I know. I am a truly twisted bastard]. I'm pretty sure I am going to be smart about that and resist temptation in that regard. Even though it would be some kind of once in a life time fantasy fulfillment sort of thing. Especially with two such attractive women.
I'm half delighted and half figuring the best thing to do is just disappear for several months and then tell them both I've reformed and am not "dating" dancers any more. Give them both a little token gift as a thank you for past favors and just hope the subject never comes up between them about what customers they've had sex with.
I might be asking for even more trouble but I'll open the floor, and my mind, to suggestions from the assembled.
3-Legged Man
05-09-2008, 03:58 AM
OMG! The image in my head is the robot from the Lost in Space TV show, flailing his arms around, lights blinking, shouting "DANGER, WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!!!" Insecure as I am, I have no advice that would pertain to handling this powder keg. If you break it off with both, you'll be miserable. If you keep dating both, they're bound to find out and dump you. If it was me, I'd probably choose one. But you're playing Russian Roulette, with each trip to the club a potential disaster. Good luck, man.
SPLUT
05-09-2008, 04:49 AM
Troll!!!!!!!
Ok I have no advice. I'll just sit here and cheer you on. Is there a sister/aunt that you could add to the mix? This is like a real life Three's Company.
hockeybobby
05-09-2008, 05:25 AM
Ummmm.....pictures?